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#15451 Urawa

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Posted 12 November 2011 - 15:36

Ross talks about "a small" difference in comparison to Nico that hampered MS top speed today and they have to look into the data...
Michael says the lower track temperatures tomorrow could be a bit of an advantage as they we´re fighting with tyre temperatures.

http://www.motorspor...n_11111224.html

Edited by Urawa, 12 November 2011 - 15:36.


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#15452 HaPe

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Posted 12 November 2011 - 15:38

There is also another thing that got my attention today.

With the current rules for Q3 it's set that the drivers with equal effort in Q3 (e.g. join track but no timed lap) will be sorted by their starting number. Okay....

When Q3 began, Nico was immediately out on track with hard tyres and not completing a timed lap, which was just to put him in front of anybody else with same or less effort (= Schumacher and the 2 Force India).
So, Schumacher could just have done the same and would - whoops - be in front of Rosberg (because the lower starting number).

Why he didnt do it? (..and I think that happened once before too)
I think that perfectly proves the point of what he said in interview earlier (and what was taken as excuse by his haters):
He simply doesnt care, whether Rosberg is in front in qualifying (this year).

Edited by HaPe, 12 November 2011 - 15:40.


#15453 Paco

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Posted 12 November 2011 - 15:40

HaPe good point.
I don't know if it means something but:
India:
Nico Q3 1:25.451 Nico race 1:28.6 , difference 3,2 sec.
Michael Q3 1:26.3 , Michael race 1:28.5 , difference 2,2 sec.
Vettel ,3,1 sec
Button 3,0 sec
Alonso 3,4 sec
but Kova 1,7 sec.

Michael get closer to his Q time than Nico.


Very very interesting stat. :up:

Now the questions to be asked, why has Michael not been able to qualfy like the other top 6 who get nearly an extra second over Michael on Soft and Low Fuel.. weird

#15454 SlateGray

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Posted 12 November 2011 - 15:40

.... but no one thought he would return, no one thought he would go to mercedes, the guy is unpredicatable.

Actually his deficit to Rosberg in Q has been very predictable. Lots of moaning about the car being NG, when and if MB give a top car Schumacher will still be slower then Rosberg in the all important Q, to the tune of 0.5 sec. Which on the current grid with the current spread of times would have Nico on pole and Schumacher starting a front row car in P6. Just saying.
The old man is not good enough to be in F1 any longer, not in a top car anyway, perhaps as a sponsor / pay driver in a lesser team. He can still bring the attention of the press and the fans and that could translate into much needed money for a smaller team where the speed defect might be better masked.

Edited by SlateGray, 12 November 2011 - 15:41.


#15455 SeanValen

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Posted 12 November 2011 - 15:43

Ross talks about "a small" difference in comparison to Nico that hampered MS top speed today and they have to look into the data...
Michael says the lower track temperatures tomorrow could be a bit of an advantage as they we´re fighting with tyre temperatures.

http://www.motorspor...n_11111224.html



:up:

And who knows how he set up that car thinking about Sunday beforehand. If the tempatures are colder, you are essentially gambling a set up, since they took away Sunday warm up in 2003, qualifying set up became linked to race set up, this is something Rosberg hasn't done well this year, and last year Michael was getting to grips with all things in f1 anyway, so to have a car to set up for qualifying and race, that's very difficult, that's what Michael has been doing well this year, and Nico the opposite, but some people don't see this because some still think qualifying means something, it means less these days and in this season, until they understand that, they won't understand Schumacher's 2011 season tactics, he has done some racing in his time to make good choices, and his race pace/results show him to proven right.

But the nature of f1 is, we won't know notihing if Michael and Nico crash out at turn 1, which would make the whole weekend meaningless, yet some will think Nico was better because of saturday, LOL, the intelligence era we live in, this is what makes f1 discussion complex, you need intelligent people willing to look at aspects of the weekend. :smoking: :smoking:

:stoned:

#15456 Diablobb81

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Posted 12 November 2011 - 15:44

Actually his deficit to Rosberg in Q has been very predictable. Lots of moaning about the car being NG, when and if MB give a top car Schumacher will still be slower then Rosberg in the all important Q, to the tune of 0.5 sec. Which on the current grid with the current spread of times would have Nico on pole and Schumacher starting a front row car in P6. Just saying.
The old man is not good enough to be in F1 any longer, not in a top car anyway, perhaps as a sponsor / pay driver in a lesser team. He can still bring the attention of the press and the fans and that could translate into much needed money for a smaller team where the speed defect might be better masked.


Actually he is the only one that challenged the front 3 teams. Tough luck.

5
5
DNF (his mistake - all over Nico)
6
DNF (no mistake)
5

No one gives a shit about quali. He didn't quali behind a slower car.

Edited by Diablobb81, 12 November 2011 - 15:50.


#15457 zelpre

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Posted 12 November 2011 - 15:47

http://www3.mercedes.....trategy-today

Brawn:

"There was a little difference in straightline speed on Michael’s car which hampered his pace in relation to Nico so we need to have a look at that and understand why."


Edited by zelpre, 12 November 2011 - 15:48.


#15458 HaPe

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Posted 12 November 2011 - 15:49

Actually his deficit to Rosberg in Q has been very predictable. Lots of moaning about the car being NG, when and if MB give a top car Schumacher will still be slower then Rosberg in the all important Q, to the tune of 0.5 sec. Which on the current grid with the current spread of times would have Nico on pole and Schumacher starting a front row car in P6. Just saying.
The old man is not good enough to be in F1 any longer, not in a top car anyway, perhaps as a sponsor / pay driver in a lesser team. He can still bring the attention of the press and the fans and that could translate into much needed money for a smaller team where the speed defect might be better masked.

Schumacher moans (sometimes) about car after qualifying (rarely after the race).
Rosberg moans after the race (about strategy and/or car) - and it happens ever more often.

If any picture has emerged in 2011 then its
- Rosberg is the better qualifier
- Schumacher is the better race driver

Edited by HaPe, 12 November 2011 - 15:52.


#15459 ivand911

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Posted 12 November 2011 - 15:56

Which side is pole side? Right one? If it is, I think left side is better for the start. Cars go over left side and go to the right between pole position and second position. But they almost didn't run over positions 1,3,5,7,9 and else.

Edited by ivand911, 12 November 2011 - 15:57.


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#15460 Paco

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Posted 12 November 2011 - 16:03

Schumacher moans (sometimes) about car after qualifying (rarely after the race).
Rosberg moans after the race (about strategy and/or car) - and it happens ever more often.

If any picture has emerged in 2011 then its
- Rosberg is the better qualifier
- Schumacher is the better race driver


You can't say someone is a better qualifyer and then a lesser racer as the 2 go hand in hand ever since Parc Ferme locking down changes from qualifying to race day.

If you lean out the car to much to get a fast lap in qualifying but kill the tires and use up to much fuel as a result compromising your race.. doesn't make you a better qualifer or a less of a racer. Its a strategy to a full race weekend.. and depending on how the race unfolds can be a benefit or a handicap.

Thats just simply far to simplistic a view of how to approach a full weekend.

Only at year end can you tell if it makes sense to go faster on Saturday and slower on Sunday or vice versa. Had it not been for MS crashing out a couple times by some very poor decision on track .. it seems going a slower but staying top 10 on Saturday to get a very race car for Sunday seems to have been the way to go. Unfortunately, Nico insists on glory runs on Saturday to put some doubt in why Michael is doing. However, there are no points awarded for qualifying .. so to me it makes more sense what Michael is doing but he hampered his points standing due some lack on judgement on Sunday at a few races that cost him some valuable earned points.



#15461 seahawk

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Posted 12 November 2011 - 16:08

I beleive that Michael no longer feels the need to prove himself to anybody. The Mercedes only has the speed for position 7 and 8 in qualifying, but if the team has a good race, Massa can be within reach. Q3 is of no importance to them.

#15462 SlateGray

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Posted 12 November 2011 - 16:09

Actually he is the only one that challenged the front 3 teams. Tough luck.


That is a very interesting way to look at the season. How often did one of the MB drivers manage to finish in front of a top six car. Lets have a quick peek and see shall we.

India:
Rosberg and Schumacher in front of Hamilton

Japan:
Schumacher in front of Massa

Singapore:
Rosberg in front of Massa

Italian:
Schumacher in front of Massa

Belgin:
Rosberg and Schumacher in front of Massa

Canada:
Schumacher in front of Massa

Turkish:
Rosberg in front of Button

Chinese:
Rosberg in front of Alonso and Massa

Rosberg racks up 6 finishes in front of at least one of the top six cars and one race where is bests 2x WDC Alonso and Massa in the same race
Beating Hamilton (X1) Button (X1) Alonso (x1) Massa (x3)

Schumacher racks up 5 finishes in front of at least one of the top six cars
Beating Hamilton (X1) Massa (X4)

It looks like the numbers run counter to your argument.

Edited by SlateGray, 12 November 2011 - 16:16.


#15463 HaPe

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Posted 12 November 2011 - 16:09

You can't say someone is a better qualifyer and then a lesser racer as the 2 go hand in hand ever since Parc Ferme locking down changes from qualifying to race day.
...

I know.
I just wanted to keep the picture simple and understandable to those that only argument by numbers.;)


#15464 Diablobb81

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Posted 12 November 2011 - 16:13

That is a very interesting way to look at the season. How often did one of the MB drivers manage to finish in front of a top six car. Lets have a quick peek and see shall we.


It looks like the numbers run counter to your argument.



Hahahahhhah

I won't even bother. So DNF for other drivers don't count but you count when one of the two (Nico or Michael) DNF's.

Try harder.

Fact : Michael had the best finish for Merc this year, better results in Top 6 :

Michael : 1 4th, 3 5th, 2 6th
Nico : 2 5th, 3 6th

5 points behind with two more non-fault DNF's.

Edited by Diablobb81, 12 November 2011 - 16:22.


#15465 sharo

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Posted 12 November 2011 - 16:15

You can't say someone is a better qualifyer and then a lesser racer as the 2 go hand in hand ever since Parc Ferme locking down changes from qualifying to race day.
.........

That's the point. With the narrow band performance of W02 one driver sets it up for the Q, the other more towards race performance.
Nico is faster in one lap, but by tenths. When there's a greater difference, there's something else behind it.

#15466 ivand911

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Posted 12 November 2011 - 16:17

I wonder if MS will have Massa pace tomorrow?

#15467 Konsta

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Posted 12 November 2011 - 16:19

I beleive that Michael no longer feels the need to prove himself to anybody. The Mercedes only has the speed for position 7 and 8 in qualifying, but if the team has a good race, Massa can be within reach. Q3 is of no importance to them.


I do not believe that for a second. Michael has been known throughout the years as never-give-up kinda guy. The difference in all of q times compared to Nico were oddly large anyway.

#15468 SlateGray

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Posted 12 November 2011 - 16:39

Hahahahhhah

I won't even bother.

Try harder.


No need to try harder perhaps explain more clearly, the point I was making is
"How often did one of the MB drivers manage to finish in front of a top six car"

The numbers don't lie.
Even if we give you the benefit of not hold Schumacher's mistakes against him he is still struggling mightily to keep on the points with Rosberg, Rosberg is currently out pointing Schumacher as he has done from day one of Schumacher's attempted comeback. Tomorrow may bring something different Schumacher might actually be in front of his teammate on the points table at the end of the day, something that has not happened for Schumacher since 2006 when he managed to best Massa.

Edited by SlateGray, 12 November 2011 - 16:40.


#15469 ivand911

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Posted 12 November 2011 - 16:43

No need to try harder perhaps explain more clearly, the point I was making is
"How often did one of the MB drivers manage to finish in front of a top six car"

This means nothing. It is more important how many times he was the first driver behind top 3 teams. Check this. He leads Nico 6:4 after India.

Edited by ivand911, 12 November 2011 - 16:50.


#15470 Diablobb81

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Posted 12 November 2011 - 16:45

No need to try harder perhaps explain more clearly, the point I was making is
"How often did one of the MB drivers manage to finish in front of a top six car"

The numbers don't lie.
Even if we give you the benefit of not hold Schumacher's mistakes against him he is still struggling mightily to keep on the points with Rosberg, Rosberg is currently out pointing Schumacher as he has done from day one of Schumacher's attempted comeback. Tomorrow may bring something different Schumacher might actually be in front of his teammate on the points table at the end of the day, something that has not happened for Schumacher since 2006 when he managed to best Massa.


But your point is meaningless. Finishing ahead of a DNF'ed driver is still finishing ahead.

Again : for you DNF for other drivers don't count but you count when one of the two (Nico or Michael) DNF's.

Try harder.

Fact : Michael had the best finish for Merc this year, better results in Top 6 :

Michael : 1 4th, 3 5th, 2 6th
Nico : 2 5th, 3 6th

5 points behind with two more non-fault DNF's.

Edited by Diablobb81, 12 November 2011 - 16:46.


#15471 SlateGray

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Posted 12 November 2011 - 16:50

This means nothing. It is more important how many times he was the first driver behind top 3 teams. Check this. He leads Nico 7:4 after India.

Grasping at straws much?
The bigger picture is Schumacher not crushing Rosberg as was called for by his fans, why is he behind on points for two years now?
Why is Rosberg faster in the Q almost all the time?

Is it the car's fault?
Is it the tires fault?
Is it the team back footing Schumacher?
Or is it because Rosberg is and has always been the best driver at MB. Numbers don't lie :cool:

Edited by SlateGray, 12 November 2011 - 16:50.


#15472 ivand911

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Posted 12 November 2011 - 16:52

Grasping at straws much?
The bigger picture is Schumacher not crushing Rosberg as was called for by his fans, why is he behind on points for two years now?
Why is Rosberg faster in the Q almost all the time?

Is it the car's fault?
Is it the tires fault?
Is it the team back footing Schumacher?
Or is it because Rosberg is and has always been the best driver at MB. Numbers don't lie :cool:

You are the only one who say that MS is crashing Nico. I disagree with you. :p


#15473 jjpm

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Posted 12 November 2011 - 17:05

5 points behind with two more non-fault DNF's.


In my book it is three non-fault DNF's :

AUS : Suspension
MON: Engine
HUN : Gearbox


#15474 cheapracer

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Posted 12 November 2011 - 17:11

:yawnface: Michael achieved some major feats in F1, but he HAD his time! Merc should be looking to the future and Michael isn't the future.


He has a contract so either you were totally ignorant about a world headlining piece of F1 news or your simply too stupid to realize that means Benz not only want him, but want him for a long time ie; their future.

You might want to write your post first then "preview post" and see it as other posters here will before pressing submit - or you're trolling.

Schumacher ....... can one reasonably conclude that he's running more downforce?

Would that mean higher or lower tyre use?


Less tyre use and faster early 1 or 2 laps on cold tyres (from start and after pit stops) but of course more drag but it's not really a slipstream passing circuit is it (stupid track).

#15475 Kubiccia

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Posted 12 November 2011 - 17:13

Championship standing with old point system: 10,6,4,3,2,1

Nico 7
Schumi 11

This point system award more top finishs rather than some regular 8th-10ths.

#15476 cheapracer

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Posted 12 November 2011 - 17:17

Why is Rosberg faster in the Q almost all the time?


Because generally he's faster.

You don't get it, faster doesn't make you a race winner (mind you it doesn't hurt either).

Been plenty of pairings where the slower driver has beaten the faster guy in the final standings - races, and further championships, are not decided in one lap, there is more to being a successful GP driver than just pure speed.


#15477 cheapracer

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Posted 12 November 2011 - 17:21


Championship standing with old point system: 10,6,4,3,2,1
Nico 7
Schumi 11


Doesn't matter, still equals nowhere for both of them, they need to work together to get that team sorted next year so they can push at the pointy end by 2014 or even 2013 if they do something special.


Which side is pole side? Right one? If it is, I think left side is better for the start. Cars go over left side and go to the right between pole position and second position. But they almost didn't run over positions 1,3,5,7,9 and else.


The start straight is too short for any fancy stuff, lets hope both get away clean, last thing we want is Slate Gray posting for 3 days straight without sleep if MS hits Nico :lol:

Edited by cheapracer, 12 November 2011 - 17:24.


#15478 Szoelloe

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Posted 12 November 2011 - 17:32

Doesn't matter, still equals nowhere for both of them, they need to work together to get that team sorted next year so they can push at the pointy end by 2014 or even 2013 if they do something special.




The start straight is too short for any fancy stuff, lets hope both get away clean, last thing we want is Slate Gray posting for 3 days straight without sleep if MS hits Nico :lol:

I think he could go a week without any sleep

#15479 jj2728

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Posted 12 November 2011 - 17:50

Jackie Stewart, Moss and the rest of the turds Christmas season will be bitter knowing the guy who annoys them the most is back and awaiting improvements from his team. Schumacher's motivation increases not because of his money/cars/past success, but what critics like you think he should do with his life, if you say he's slow, he'll go faster, just wait and watch, even if he had a odd race this weekend, he's done more then enough to be the faster consistent race performing driver this year, now just a strong car is needed, and it will take a slower car to make Vettel look like a rosberg or schumacher this year, the car itself makes people lazy, I'm sure when Vettel comes crashing down to earth one day, and has incidences with backmakers, his season won't look any better then Michael's this eyar, these cars are racing almost in different formulas looking at their car differences, it's very challenging to be sure who's doing what with kers, drs, tyre choices and alll.


I gotta say this is classic comedic stuff, especially the bit about his motivation being the critics' saying he's slow so he'll go faster. Keep em coming!

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#15480 britishtrident

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Posted 12 November 2011 - 18:42

7. Nico Rosberg Mercedes 1m39.773s
8. Michael Schumacher Mercedes 1m40.662s


That makes Rosberg not far off a second faster and Nico says he made mistakes on his hot lap and should have been faster.

#15481 Diablobb81

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Posted 12 November 2011 - 19:19

And still only one place difference.


#15482 arknor

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Posted 12 November 2011 - 19:36

That makes Rosberg not far off a second faster and Nico says he made mistakes on his hot lap and should have been faster.

he always says that anyway...

could have , should have , would have

every quali/race garunteed

#15483 Wettham

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Posted 12 November 2011 - 19:37

I think it best to wait and see. It s much more car setup and also tire conservation. If Schumi was supposedly worse last year and I think this is a general consensus, then at this same track last year he outqualifyed nico. 2011 Schumi is .9 slower a year later? I think not.

#15484 HaPe

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Posted 12 November 2011 - 19:49

Numbers don't lie :cool:

Interesting.
How about these numbers:

Championship standing with old point system: 10,6,4,3,2,1

Nico 7
Schumi 11

Edited by HaPe, 12 November 2011 - 19:51.


#15485 HaPe

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Posted 12 November 2011 - 19:53

In my book it is three non-fault DNF's :

AUS : Suspension
MON: Engine
HUN : Gearbox

He meant/said 2 more non-fault = 2 more than Rosberg has.  ;)

Edited by HaPe, 12 November 2011 - 19:54.


#15486 jjpm

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Posted 12 November 2011 - 22:31

He meant/said 2 more non-fault = 2 more than Rosberg has. ;)


Yup, my mistake!  ;)

#15487 britishtrident

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Posted 12 November 2011 - 22:57

And still only one place difference.


To put together two well known quotes;
"A week is a long time in politics" and a "second is a long time in motor racing".



#15488 george1981

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Posted 12 November 2011 - 23:15

I was wondering what Michael's strategy would be for the start, will he save his KERS for the first long straight rather than using it at the start. It seemed to work well last time, but the first long straight is a lot further away at this track.

#15489 Lantern

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Posted 13 November 2011 - 00:09

Hey guys. I'm very sorry if this has been mentioned. But why isn't Button trashed nearly like Schumacher? He is regularly beaten and several spots behind Hamilton yet at the end of the race he's ahead or right behind lewis. Is this not the same thing that Schumi has done this year with Nico?


It just seems that there's a premium on racecraft these days due to the drs and kers systems. There's no longer a terrible penalty for a driver to set a car up for the race as opposed to outright qualy pace due to it being easier to get by guys that have a slick qualifying lap during the race. Before if you set a car up for the race that could finish 4th but that car could only qualy 10th you would be LUCKY to get back to 7th or 8th.

#15490 jj2728

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Posted 13 November 2011 - 00:23

Thing of it is, Schumacher and Mercedes-Benz know they don't have the best car, but they have years upon years of racecraft experience. They are going to be a force (and a very strong one at that) to be reckoned with once they get all the kinks worked out. Signing Rosberg keeps a continuity within the team and I'm sure Nico is learning quite a bit from the 7 times WDC. I've been known to wind people up and I cannot stand the rampant 'fanboyism", but give the man his due, he's highly capable of winning multiple GPs again and along with Rosberg taking the Silver Arrows to the top.

#15491 fieraku

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Posted 13 November 2011 - 00:26

Because generally he's faster.

You don't get it, faster doesn't make you a race winner (mind you it doesn't hurt either).

Been plenty of pairings where the slower driver has beaten the faster guy in the final standings - races, and further championships, are not decided in one lap, there is more to being a successful GP driver than just pure speed.


Schu is a genius,he knows he won't be higher than 6th in Q so he sets up his car heavily towards the race,he relies on his supreme starts and first lap prowess to make up the 3-4 spots and it's game on from there.

He will make one hell of a TP in the future.

#15492 Tenmantaylor

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Posted 13 November 2011 - 01:45

What relavance does Schumachers indian tent building skills have?

#15493 Diablobb81

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Posted 13 November 2011 - 07:16

To put together two well known quotes;
"A week is a long time in politics" and a "second is a long time in motor racing".


Generally yes.


But in this case 1 sec is still only one place.Mercedes is in a place of their own, so compared to the rest of the grid 1 sec is meaningless. He didn't lose any place except for his teammate. And it was pretty clear that Rosberg is generally faster over 1 lap and especially at this circuit.

Michael also said that he did save tires. So this means that he either used one set for more laps or didn't really push with the sets he used.

This is another track which favors Nico (like he said). Hopefully on race pace it ends up like Singapore. :)

Edited by Diablobb81, 13 November 2011 - 07:17.


#15494 ivand911

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Posted 13 November 2011 - 08:21

Did anyone see interview with MS yesterday? On RTL they didn't interview him. And this is for the first time as I remember. But, he was there in interview circle. Did he have some problems with RTL?
It was mentioned before that MS did the equal time in Q with FP2. Did anyone from you think they slept since then and if he wanted he couldn't do better? On the radio they tell him that he need 1:40.5 to stay in Q3 and he did it. Why they will tell him that target when they know that Nico can do 1:39.4? Because they have different strategy. He wasn't fighting Nico, he was doing his thing. If they wanted 1:39.4 they just have to set up the car differently. But, they didn't wanted 1:39 in the Q. They set up their car for different Q times.
We can compare Nico and Michael if they drive one car and to see who will make the best lap with it. Not tyre savings, all out. Or even if they drive their cars, but with the purpose to set the best possible lap. Not thinking about race afterwards.
I agree that they need to change Q rules. Now there isn't any excitement in Q3 especially.
Lets see if their weekend work will paid off today. Have to be very hard to drive this cars/tyres. That you can't push to 100%. You need to have big self-discipline.
Give them qualifying tyres.
About Button/Shumi question ,the answer is Button find himself in another place in F1 column. You don't have Petrov, Koba, Perez there. Best MS friends. If MS didn't have this incidents he would be ahead of Nico by now. On the other side Lewis also have a lot of incidents this year. Button, stay out of the trouble, where Lewis have found Massa, Maldonado, Koba. So, Lewis and MS give their team mates this advantage. And Button have very good season too, Nico not so much.

Edited by ivand911, 13 November 2011 - 08:48.


#15495 zelpre

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Posted 13 November 2011 - 12:24

Not on the clean side of the grid...But let's do it! This is the most important race so far in this season for Michael. Best of luck Michael!

#15496 HaPe

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Posted 13 November 2011 - 12:33

This is the most important race so far in this season for Michael.

Why? :confused:


#15497 DutchCruijff

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Posted 13 November 2011 - 13:07

Touches Rosberg & Massa on the first lap, he really needs to judge his moves/positioning better.

#15498 Richardc

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Posted 13 November 2011 - 13:24

Lets hope he is doing his general slow stint 1 for a reason.

#15499 arknor

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Posted 13 November 2011 - 13:26

Lets hope he is doing his general slow stint 1 for a reason.

i suspect not

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#15500 Richardc

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Posted 13 November 2011 - 13:27

So do i, but there is some hope.