Jump to content


Photo

Michael Schumacher (merged)


  • This topic is locked This topic is locked
20771 replies to this topic

#15651 SlateGray

SlateGray
  • Member

  • 6,134 posts
  • Joined: August 00

Posted 23 November 2011 - 16:40

Yup. Starting to be drawn towards a recent post that basically said there's smart MS fans here and, well, not so smart ones.

His passing rate is better than Nico's simply because he didn't qualify as well, as often - nothing to be proud of in the least. In fact you have to say damn lucky he is good at passing/starting or this year would be rather embarrassing.


Agree!
Now consider if the MB was a front row car in the hands of Rosberg. Where would Schumacher be if his gap to Rosberg in qualifying was the standard amount demonstrated these past two seasons? A quick scan of the past few races shows that a 0.5 sec per lap gap from the pole would have Schumacher's car starting in P5 or P6. Not good, in fact very bad. If Schumacher cannot up his game to be on the same level in qualifying as Rosberg then he is not suitable to pilot a front row car, this is a fact. I think Schumacher’s fans should stop blaming the car cuz if it was any better then it is now Schumacher would be looking worse relative to Rosberg not better.

Edited by SlateGray, 23 November 2011 - 16:44.


Advertisement

#15652 Diablobb81

Diablobb81
  • Member

  • 3,734 posts
  • Joined: August 09

Posted 23 November 2011 - 16:41

The point is that the overtaking figures highlight a weakness in his performances elsewhere and ultimately are nothing to feel hugely proud of.


Yeah, good thing we can make only one conclusion from stats. :rolleyes:

It's not like it could be a combination of his poor quali records and his skill. It's Schumacher so it must be only his quali form.

It's not like Buemi has an average starting position of 14.61 and Michael 10.33. Or that Michael started 11 times in the top 10, 3 times 11th, once 12th, 13th and 24th.

Please don't let any analyzing stand in a way of drawing a conclusion based on some stats.

#15653 ivand911

ivand911
  • Member

  • 8,152 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 23 November 2011 - 16:47

The point is that the overtaking figures highlight a weakness in his performances elsewhere and ultimately are nothing to feel hugely proud of.

But, he easily resolve that problem in first lap usually. Still his passes are something to be proud of. Because of them he is 8th in WDC and 7 points behind his team-mate(who don't have weakness). Without passes he could be way back. And him being behind was not always because of his Qualifying. Some times it was because of the team, other drivers and his own faults.
Another question is how big role play his team faults or great decisions in his performance. We will never know. Car is maybe 70% responsible for the final result, and there are many other people working on this car. And this is not only about him, it is for all other drivers. Which side of the garage is better. In the end we usually praise only the driver. But, if driver perform badly , we only blame the driver for it. This is why they say WE, they meant their racing team, not the whole team.

Edited by ivand911, 23 November 2011 - 17:29.


#15654 Group B

Group B
  • Member

  • 13,971 posts
  • Joined: March 02

Posted 23 November 2011 - 16:57

But, he easily resolve that problem in first lap usually.

Quite. For all the whining about MS' (admitedly poor) qualifying, the reality is that he's usually right next to Nico by the end of lap one.

#15655 salamin

salamin
  • Member

  • 1,692 posts
  • Joined: March 09

Posted 23 November 2011 - 17:07

The point is that the overtaking figures highlight a weakness in his performances elsewhere and ultimately are nothing to feel hugely proud of.


It still means that he's a good overtaker, OTOH look at NR's overtaking moves in cases he started outside the top 10 (for example suzuka being stuck behind backmarkers for laps)

#15656 SlateGray

SlateGray
  • Member

  • 6,134 posts
  • Joined: August 00

Posted 23 November 2011 - 17:15

Quite. For all the whining about MS' (admitedly poor) qualifying, the reality is that he's usually right next to Nico by the end of lap one.


Yes that works now when there are no cars between them on the grid. What if the MB was a front row car with Rosberg placing it P1 or P2, that would make Schumacher P5 or P6 and the cars in between would be top cars driven by the likes of Button, Hamilton, Alonso… Do you still think Schumacher would be “right next to Nico” at the end of lap 1, or would Schumacher be desperately trying to fend off the ever improving Force India? Face it Schumacher is not quick enough and the numbers say as much.



#15657 ivand911

ivand911
  • Member

  • 8,152 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 23 November 2011 - 17:17

No, SlateGray it will not put him in P5 or P6. This is BS. SlateGray, 0,5 sec from the pole will give you 3,83 starting position(for the season). Let say P4. It is not P5 or P6. MS with his great start and great passings will be right behind his team mate very quickly, especially if he have better race pace as we saw in many races this year. Risk of crashes is less at the front. This is if we say that with better car they will perform like in MGP car. But, this is hardly the case, any other car can shift the advantage between them. With car more suitable for Nico or Michael natural driving style, this can put him in advantage. So, I don't think that we can make assumptions you make. That in better car they will perform like in MGP car. I believe that in every other car they will perform differently. Like in W01 last year and w02 this year. MS is equal to Nico this year. And W02 also have role here. Also if they have front running car, strategy will be very different. Can somebody tell me, how many times in Q3 ,MS have real go for best result? Or he just save his tyres and make fake Q3. From 11 Q3 he have more fake Q3 than real ones.

Edited by ivand911, 23 November 2011 - 17:25.


#15658 Sakae

Sakae
  • Member

  • 19,256 posts
  • Joined: December 03

Posted 23 November 2011 - 17:26

Quite. For all the whining about MS' (admitedly poor) qualifying, the reality is that he's usually right next to Nico by the end of lap one.

In quali I think it's not only him, but there are some other factors involved which are adversely affecting his position, altghough admittedly I do not know what they are. Results are not attributable solely to his age, I think.

#15659 MightyMoose

MightyMoose
  • RC Forum Host

  • 1,139 posts
  • Joined: July 10

Posted 23 November 2011 - 17:38

Slate also neglects to consider the fact that the MERC is known to be open to a "quali" set-up or a "race" set-up.

We have debated who is likely to have each choice. But it doesn't reflect Slate's agenda to admit that is the case.

If the MERC was much quicker, by definition it's operating window is likely to be far wider and probably allow a better balance for both Q & R.

Therefore it's not fair to come in with wild ass theories yet assume that only the things we want to value remain the same. That's clearly displaying an agenda of hate.

We can consider that NR would be 0.3 quicker - it's only 0.8-1.0 if you take the last race as your barometer, but we're not in the business of doing that unless you miraculously appear whenever MS is "outclassed"- based upon the past 2 seasons, but we have no idea if that status quo would be repeated once the MERC was quicker and better balanced. We could also consider that based upon race performances this season, MS would be showing NR the way home more often than not, but again, that's not got any real substance once you change the parameters to suit.

Advertisement

#15660 SlateGray

SlateGray
  • Member

  • 6,134 posts
  • Joined: August 00

Posted 23 November 2011 - 17:40

Abu Dhabi Grand Prix: Qualifying results

MS 100.662
NR 099.773
__________
0.889 difference

Pole
98.431 + .0.889 = 99.32

P5 Fernando Alonso Ferrari 99.058
P6 Felipe Massa Ferrari 99.695

So if Rosberg was on pole Schumacher would be starting P6, fact!

This may differ from race to race slightly but regardless Schumacher would be lagging way way back with a top car.
Schumacher would not be jumping the likes of Alonso Button, Vettel, Hamilton, off the start on a consistent basis.
Facts proved by the numbers say that Schumacher is just to slow to be in F1. :(

#15661 cheapracer

cheapracer
  • Member

  • 10,388 posts
  • Joined: May 07

Posted 23 November 2011 - 17:45

The point is that the overtaking figures highlight a weakness in his performances elsewhere and ultimately are nothing to feel hugely proud of.


And it's as simple as that.

Luck has also been on his side, gaps have been known to close on you as well as other circumstance totally out of your control at the first corner and MS has missed a few, Monza and Spa come immediately to mind - and that has nothing at all to do with skill.


#15662 Jejking

Jejking
  • Member

  • 2,545 posts
  • Joined: June 11

Posted 23 November 2011 - 17:46

Yes that works now when there are no cars between them on the grid. What if the MB was a front row car with Rosberg placing it P1 or P2, that would make Schumacher P5 or P6 and the cars in between would be top cars driven by the likes of Button, Hamilton, Alonso… Do you still think Schumacher would be “right next to Nico” at the end of lap 1, or would Schumacher be desperately trying to fend off the ever improving Force India? Face it Schumacher is not quick enough and the numbers say as much.

So you think with the current toppers in the topteams Schumacher wouldn't stand a chance and it's all down to age? The first laps in 2010 and 2011 tend to prove Schumacher pretty much always picks the right line to outsmart other drivers, whether it's Rosberg (last race) or Button (Turkey 2010) or even almost Hamilton (Turkey 2011). Do I need to go on?

You ignoring my last post proves your agenda mate. Don't try to convince anybody here, it's all wasted joules. Instead of, try to respect someone's opinion ;)

Edited by Jejking, 23 November 2011 - 17:48.


#15663 ivand911

ivand911
  • Member

  • 8,152 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 23 November 2011 - 17:49

Abu Dhabi Grand Prix: Qualifying results

MS 100.662
NR 099.773
__________
0.889 difference

Pole
98.431 + .0.889 = 99.32

P5 Fernando Alonso Ferrari 99.058
P6 Felipe Massa Ferrari 99.695

So if Rosberg was on pole Schumacher would be starting P6, fact!

This may differ from race to race slightly but regardless Schumacher would be lagging way way back with a top car.
Schumacher would not be jumping the likes of Alonso Button, Vettel, Hamilton, off the start on a consistent basis.
Facts proved by the numbers say that Schumacher is just to slow to be in F1. :(

:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:
It was 0,5 sec, now it is 0,889 sec? What next? In Australia 0,889 will put him P4, fact. In China and Monaco too. P3 in Spain. Many facts disprove you.
You are arranging facts to suit you? :p
Don't be sad, it is only against you. You will fool nobody.

Edited by ivand911, 23 November 2011 - 17:56.


#15664 SlateGray

SlateGray
  • Member

  • 6,134 posts
  • Joined: August 00

Posted 23 November 2011 - 17:52

:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:
It was 0,5 sec, now it is 0,889 sec? What next? In Australia 0,889 will put him P4, fact. In China too.
You are arranging facts to suit you? :p
Don't be angry, it is only against you. You will fool nobody.


Please point out any error(s) in the numbers I posted!

#15665 Diablobb81

Diablobb81
  • Member

  • 3,734 posts
  • Joined: August 09

Posted 23 November 2011 - 17:52

So people still ignore facts when judging Michael's overtaking ability? Great.

Btw, the difference in quali until now between Michael and Nico is +0.327s.

Edited by Diablobb81, 23 November 2011 - 17:53.


#15666 BRK

BRK
  • Member

  • 3,653 posts
  • Joined: November 07

Posted 23 November 2011 - 17:55

Who cares. The point is that a 42-year old Schumacher is still sharp as a razor, he's been making lightning quick starts and, as the passing stats would indicate, has adapted well to the Playstation era of DRS\KERS assisted passing, unlike some of the much younger drivers around him. He's just 7 points (under the new system) behind his teammate despite having had three more DNFs. Pretty impressive turnaround from last season, I'd say, could get even better next season.

#15667 MightyMoose

MightyMoose
  • RC Forum Host

  • 1,139 posts
  • Joined: July 10

Posted 23 November 2011 - 17:58

As if by magic, right after my post containing this sentence - We can consider that NR would be 0.3 quicker - it's only 0.8-1.0 if you take the last race as your barometer, but we're not in the business of doing that unless you miraculously appear whenever MS is "outclassed"-

Up steps Slate to confirm he is in fact, using that sole race as a barometer.

I think the case is closed Slate, you're not being objective at all, but you're succeeding in being extremely objectionable. It's as if you want the MODS to delete threads, posts & ban posters.

You vanish every single time MS gets close, let alone comes out on top, yet appear once he's been "dominated", demanding his retirement and casting aspersions over not only his return, but any of his achievements.

It's tiresome, inaccurate and quite insulting that you continue to peddle such one-sided nonsense. At least present a fair & balanced option, by all means say "here's the avg gap over the 2 seasons, and this is why I think if & when MERC get a better car, NR will destroy MS even more than I believe he is already".

Encourage debate, not hate. Stop the flamebaiting and engage fairly, unless you know your argument is limp. In which case, it explains a lot!

#15668 Buttoneer

Buttoneer
  • RC Forum Admin

  • 17,483 posts
  • Joined: May 04

Posted 23 November 2011 - 17:59

Yeah, good thing we can make only one conclusion from stats. :rolleyes:

It's not like it could be a combination of his poor quali records and his skill. It's Schumacher so it must be only his quali form.

It's not like Buemi has an average starting position of 14.61 and Michael 10.33. Or that Michael started 11 times in the top 10, 3 times 11th, once 12th, 13th and 24th.

Please don't let any analyzing stand in a way of drawing a conclusion based on some stats.

But it's OK to draw the simple conclusion that he's good at overtaking? I've drawn the conclusion that over the season Rosberg and Schumacher have been about equal, but that they've got there via different routes. This isn't a new and sudden conclusion for today, it's been posted elsewhere recently and overall I think he's done pretty well considering what he's been working with. However, from the point of view of this thread, it is false to say that he is great at overtaking without also considering why he was in a position to make those moves. It might be a little bittersweet to look at it from that perspective but taking his performances in isolation, as this thread is trying to do, means looking at the good and bad. I have done this but the poster I responded to hadn't.

#15669 ivand911

ivand911
  • Member

  • 8,152 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 23 November 2011 - 18:02

Please point out any error(s) in the numbers I posted!

Your error(deliberately) is that you point one fact(race) and you make general conclusions for whole season. Read my post again, I put another races too. Is it the difference 0,327sec, this will make SG job very hard?

Edited by ivand911, 23 November 2011 - 18:03.


#15670 cheapracer

cheapracer
  • Member

  • 10,388 posts
  • Joined: May 07

Posted 23 November 2011 - 18:03

So people still ignore facts when judging Michael's overtaking ability? Great.


No some are just seeing the complete picture.

I'm sure MS would agree and I didn't look at the list but I'm sure Vettle is at the other end of it.



#15671 Diablobb81

Diablobb81
  • Member

  • 3,734 posts
  • Joined: August 09

Posted 23 November 2011 - 18:03

But it's OK to draw the simple conclusion that he's good at overtaking? I've drawn the conclusion that over the season Rosberg and Schumacher have been about equal, but that they've got there via different routes. This isn't a new and sudden conclusion for today, it's been posted elsewhere recently and overall I think he's done pretty well considering what he's been working with. However, from the point of view of this thread, it is false to say that he is great at overtaking without also considering why he was in a position to make those moves. It might be a little bittersweet to look at it from that perspective but taking his performances in isolation, as this thread is trying to do, means looking at the good and bad. I have done this but the poster I responded to hadn't.



So if that guy is wrong why do you have to present a wrong pov too?

He had some "issues" with overtaking (less) and defending (more) that resulted in a world record of FW's used but the stats do show that he has skills in starts and overtaking.

No some are just seeing the complete picture.

I'm sure MS would agree and I didn't look at the list but I'm sure Vettle is at the other end of it.



Sorry but saying that he has those stats only because he as a bad start position is wrong. And it is proved by his quali record which isn't that bad as some have suggested.

Edited by Diablobb81, 23 November 2011 - 18:05.


#15672 Jejking

Jejking
  • Member

  • 2,545 posts
  • Joined: June 11

Posted 23 November 2011 - 18:04

To cheer up the mood in this heavily derailing thread, I found some good footage onboard of Button, his start at Turkey 2010.

http://www.youtube.c...feature=related

We all know the rear viewing camera on Schumachers car with the smoking brakes and Button flying by but this footage I didn't know. He took on the fight pretty hard before turn eight, heartstopping moment at turn-in! :eek:

Edited by Jejking, 23 November 2011 - 18:05.


#15673 as65p

as65p
  • Member

  • 18,446 posts
  • Joined: June 04

Posted 23 November 2011 - 18:10

Slate also neglects to consider the fact that the MERC is known to be open to a "quali" set-up or a "race" set-up.


Fact, eh? :lol: More like a made up excuse from certain fans.

BTW, if we assume for a moment that's true and the MGP has that unique characteristic, Rosberg is doing a mega job of staying close to and sometimes even being faster than MS in the races, all with his "qualy only" setup. :drunk:

#15674 ivand911

ivand911
  • Member

  • 8,152 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 23 November 2011 - 18:10

Italy Grand Prix: Qualifying results

MS 01:23.777
NR 01:24.477
__________
0.7 difference

Pole
01:22.275 + 0.7 = 1:22.975

P5 Webber 01:22.972
P6 Felipe Massa Ferrari 01:23.188

So if MS was on pole Nico would be starting P6, fact!

BTW, if we assume for a moment that's true and the MGP has that unique characteristic, Rosberg is doing a mega job of staying close to and sometimes even being faster than MS in the races, all with his "qualy only" setup. :drunk:

Can you tell us what lap time difference we can expect from race and qualy set up? Or from MS and Nico set up, don't matter what this means? I guess you know what set ups they use. You can share with us. :wave:

Edited by ivand911, 23 November 2011 - 18:15.


#15675 Jejking

Jejking
  • Member

  • 2,545 posts
  • Joined: June 11

Posted 23 November 2011 - 18:14

Fact, eh? :lol: More like a made up excuse from certain fans.

BTW, if we assume for a moment that's true and the MGP has that unique characteristic, Rosberg is doing a mega job of staying close to and sometimes even being faster than MS in the races, all with his "qualy only" setup. :drunk:

Noooooope (Chuck Testa), fact. With all these Friday and Saturday reports it became pretty obvious that the car indeed has that unique characteristic of behaving well and behaving totally different after a couple of small changes. Try again buddy.

#15676 SlateGray

SlateGray
  • Member

  • 6,134 posts
  • Joined: August 00

Posted 23 November 2011 - 18:17

Italy Grand Prix: Qualifying results

MS 01:23.777
NR 01:24.477
__________
0.7 difference

Pole
01:22.275 + 0.7 = 1:22.975

P5 Webber 01:22.972
P6 Felipe Massa Ferrari 01:23.188

So if MS was on pole Nico would be starting P6, fact!

There is an exception to every rule :p
I will do the entire season for 2010 and 2011 and we will see the total picture. It may take some time so ...be patient. I don't think you will like the results.

#15677 Buttoneer

Buttoneer
  • RC Forum Admin

  • 17,483 posts
  • Joined: May 04

Posted 23 November 2011 - 18:19

So if that guy is wrong why do you have to present a wrong pov too?

He had some "issues" with overtaking (less) and defending (more) that resulted in a world record of FW's used but the stats do show that he has skills in starts and overtaking.

No I'm right and you're wrong. This is fun. Your turn.

Look at Schumachers performances in the round. Forget the Buemi thing and the P3/P4/P5 relative starting position thing because that's so variable it's not worth considering. Start at the begining and tell me that having a great overtaking stat but a better finishing result that isn't as good as your teammate is a good thing. It simply isn't. I don't know what his issues are and speculating about what they might be isn't my game. I agree that Slategrays figures don't tell the full story and that he's presented a worst case scenario with the India figures, but the basic point is nevertheless valid that he keeps starting behind his teammate and has to take risks to get him up level. In fact it's not hugely different from the Hamilton v Button performance this year in that regard.

Schumacher has improved a lot since last year and I hope that he improves further next year, also that the tech team come up with a car capable of competing for podiums and wins. But surely we can talk about where that improvement might be found without getting all angry and upset?

#15678 Diablobb81

Diablobb81
  • Member

  • 3,734 posts
  • Joined: August 09

Posted 23 November 2011 - 18:19

There is an exception to every rule :p
I will do the entire season for 2010 and 2011 and we will see the total picture. It may take some time so ...be patient. I don't think you will like the results.


0.28 last year
0.327 this year

Times from the last part of qualifying in which both appeared.

No I'm right and you're wrong. This is fun. Your turn.

Look at Schumachers performances in the round. Forget the Buemi thing and the P3/P4/P5 relative starting position thing because that's so variable it's not worth considering. Start at the begining and tell me that having a great overtaking stat but a better finishing result that isn't as good as your teammate is a good thing. It simply isn't. I don't know what his issues are and speculating about what they might be isn't my game. I agree that Slategrays figures don't tell the full story and that he's presented a worst case scenario with the India figures, but the basic point is nevertheless valid that he keeps starting behind his teammate and has to take risks to get him up level. In fact it's not hugely different from the Hamilton v Button performance this year in that regard.

Schumacher has improved a lot since last year and I hope that he improves further next year, also that the tech team come up with a car capable of competing for podiums and wins. But surely we can talk about where that improvement might be found without getting all angry and upset?



But i never ignored the situation that provided those stats (i.e. his worse quali). But the stats do show that his quali positions aren't as bad as they were said to be. He wasn't always around slower cars to pretend that his starts and overtakes are only due to him having a faster car.

And his finishing positions are pretty respectable compared to his teammate. Again : best result for Merc, still better top 6 finishes. Just that Nico is more constant.

Edited by Diablobb81, 23 November 2011 - 18:27.


#15679 Buttoneer

Buttoneer
  • RC Forum Admin

  • 17,483 posts
  • Joined: May 04

Posted 23 November 2011 - 18:21

There is an exception to every rule :p
I will do the entire season for 2010 and 2011 and we will see the total picture. It may take some time so ...be patient. I don't think you will like the results.

That would be a lot more honest than picking one race out of 19.

Advertisement

#15680 ivand911

ivand911
  • Member

  • 8,152 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 23 November 2011 - 18:21

There is an exception to every rule :p
I will do the entire season for 2010 and 2011 and we will see the total picture. It may take some time so ...be patient. I don't think you will like the results.

Do them separately. :rotfl:

#15681 MightyMoose

MightyMoose
  • RC Forum Host

  • 1,139 posts
  • Joined: July 10

Posted 23 November 2011 - 18:25

Fact, eh? :lol: More like a made up excuse from certain fans.

BTW, if we assume for a moment that's true and the MGP has that unique characteristic, Rosberg is doing a mega job of staying close to and sometimes even being faster than MS in the races, all with his "qualy only" setup. :drunk:

Nice try, but a fail none-the-less.

How about considering that a race set-up may just be a simple case of a touch more wing, saving the Pirellis for maybe 1 or 2 more laps, enabling better & more flexible race strategy?
Too complex for you? There's plenty of other options, but I guess when you have an agenda like yours, it's easier to rubbish something that appears patently clear.

Nobody has provided anything to show that the Ross Brawn quote about the - touched upon many times in this thread - is paper talk. The only people who seem to want to view it as BS are also those that vanish at certain times throughout the season.


#15682 valachus

valachus
  • Member

  • 1,091 posts
  • Joined: July 05

Posted 23 November 2011 - 18:25

To cheer up the mood in this heavily derailing thread, I found some good footage onboard of Button, his start at Turkey 2010.

http://www.youtube.c...feature=related

We all know the rear viewing camera on Schumachers car with the smoking brakes and Button flying by but this footage I didn't know. He took on the fight pretty hard before turn eight, heartstopping moment at turn-in! :eek:


That W01 handled like a pig on ice, by the look of it.

#15683 Buttoneer

Buttoneer
  • RC Forum Admin

  • 17,483 posts
  • Joined: May 04

Posted 23 November 2011 - 18:26

Do them separately. :rotfl:

Why?

Diablobb81 has done that above and the two year sample size should even things out even further. The only thing it won't do is illustrate the improvement. Your mission, should you chosoe to accept it, is to put together a graph of their qualifying time difference, maybe expressed as a percentage of pole time, and see whether the lines converge over each year or the total period. That should measure the improvment.

#15684 ivand911

ivand911
  • Member

  • 8,152 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 23 November 2011 - 18:28

That W01 handled like a pig on ice, by the look of it.

It is true ,but it is still better than W02 comparing to the top3 cars.

Why?

Because for me ,two years are separate. To see the improvement we only need to look at the points table. 142:72 against 83:76. Quite an improvement with worst car comparing to the top 3 cars. MS I mean. Nico is going backwards from 2010. P8 instead of P9 for MS. I don't need more proofs.
Maybe I am easily impressed by MS. Guilty, but that's me. :p

Edited by ivand911, 23 November 2011 - 18:37.


#15685 Diablobb81

Diablobb81
  • Member

  • 3,734 posts
  • Joined: August 09

Posted 23 November 2011 - 18:29

I hate math so i didn't make them.F1 fanatic did them. :p


Here is a quali graph for 2011 between teammates :

http://www.f1fanatic...011-form-guide/

Edited by Diablobb81, 23 November 2011 - 18:31.


#15686 Jejking

Jejking
  • Member

  • 2,545 posts
  • Joined: June 11

Posted 23 November 2011 - 18:31

Why?

Diablobb81 has done that above and the two year sample size should even things out even further. The only thing it won't do is illustrate the improvement. Your mission, should you chosoe to accept it, is to put together a graph of their qualifying time difference, maybe expressed as a percentage of pole time, and see whether the lines converge over each year or the total period. That should measure the improvment.

You sure as hell have a lot of confidence in well-done, well-executed, objective calculations done by the hand of a guy who never ever let a single positive word flow out of his keyboard in any Schumacher-like thread! I admire your optimism mate but I have my doubts about the end result. Up to him to prove me wrong.

Edited by Jejking, 23 November 2011 - 18:31.


#15687 MightyMoose

MightyMoose
  • RC Forum Host

  • 1,139 posts
  • Joined: July 10

Posted 23 November 2011 - 18:35

Why?

Diablobb81 has done that above and the two year sample size should even things out even further. The only thing it won't do is illustrate the improvement. Your mission, should you chosoe to accept it, is to put together a graph of their qualifying time difference, maybe expressed as a percentage of pole time, and see whether the lines converge over each year or the total period. That should measure the improvment.

You'd do them separately so that you can isolate data from 2010 & 2011. Personally, I thought the gap this year in Q is bigger than last year. Could that be explained by the car characteristics, or DRS/KERS issues?

Possibly..... Possibly not. But I think it was a lot more straight-forward in 2010, there certainly wasn't a quote from Ross Brawn saying the car can really only be optimized for the Q or R, but not really both.

Regardless, I think the argument is not only centered around Q pace is it? JB is slower than LH in 1 lap pace, (by common consent regardless of what the LH huggers would have you believe) but his race pace & more importantly race 'brain' has shown to be at least up there & at times far superior this season to LH. Are we expected to have the same discussion there in due course? That will be fun....but not for the MODS!

There's simply too many intangibles for a definitive result to this I believe, besides I think there's the basics of the agenda being MS is simply too slow to be in F1, that's got little evidence from 2011 imo.

#15688 spacekid

spacekid
  • Member

  • 2,678 posts
  • Joined: April 11

Posted 23 November 2011 - 18:36

Haven't seen any mention of the fact that Schumi's had quite a lot of well documented car glitches in qualifying. I think there was at least one case of unbalanced wheels (or was it two cases?) several incidents of malfunctioning DRS, malfunctioning KERS, and a wheel falling off.

No, Schumi has not generally been as quick as Nico in quali. Thats partly because Nico is usually bloody awesome in qualifying! But to pretend that Schumi is always soooo far behind Nico is dishonest. He isn't quite as quick, but not that far behind. He's put in a lot of good overtaking moves to make up for that, but mostly his high overtaking rate has been to make up for SNAFUs with his Mercedes. And I've enjoyed watching him do it immensley this year. Isn't that the most important thing?

But noooooooooo, we can't just enjoy a racer entertaining us can we? Not when there's some bashing to be done.

Edited by spacekid, 23 November 2011 - 18:38.


#15689 SlateGray

SlateGray
  • Member

  • 6,134 posts
  • Joined: August 00

Posted 23 November 2011 - 18:36

That would be a lot more honest than picking one race out of 19.

Nothing dishonest in what I posted. "A more complete view" might have been a better way to say that. :)
I will not do any graphing but I will do a race by race analysis to see what the relative grid positions would have been in each race if we assume the faster of the two was on pole. We will see where the slower of the two would have started relative to the pack.

#15690 BRK

BRK
  • Member

  • 3,653 posts
  • Joined: November 07

Posted 23 November 2011 - 18:41

Haven't seen any mention of the fact that Schumi's had quite a lot of well documented car glitches in qualifying. I think there was at least one case of unbalanced wheels (or was it two cases?) several incidents of malfunctioning DRS, malfunctioning KERS, and a wheel falling off.


That's not on today's menu. Strictly a Monday morning special.

#15691 ivand911

ivand911
  • Member

  • 8,152 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 23 November 2011 - 18:48

Nice portion of laughs today. Can't stop smiling. :up:

#15692 as65p

as65p
  • Member

  • 18,446 posts
  • Joined: June 04

Posted 23 November 2011 - 18:51

Nice try, but a fail none-the-less.

How about considering that a race set-up may just be a simple case of a touch more wing, saving the Pirellis for maybe 1 or 2 more laps, enabling better & more flexible race strategy?
Too complex for you? There's plenty of other options, but I guess when you have an agenda like yours, it's easier to rubbish something that appears patently clear.

Nobody has provided anything to show that the Ross Brawn quote about the - touched upon many times in this thread - is paper talk. The only people who seem to want to view it as BS are also those that vanish at certain times throughout the season.


I see the theory is essential for many, that much is true.

Just another little spanner, consider this: Again, we assume it's true. Even with his setup leaning towards qualy, Rosberg can't really qualify higher than 7th, usually. Even with his race setup, MS (provided he doesn't make any obvious driving errors in qualifying) doesn't drop lower than eight or ninth.

With that in mind, how dumb would Ross Brawn have to be to waste Nico Rosbergs race pace with a qualifying setup that get's him just ahead of Schumacher but nowhere else?

Hm? :D


#15693 ivand911

ivand911
  • Member

  • 8,152 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 23 November 2011 - 18:57

I see the theory is essential for many, that much is true.

Just another little spanner, consider this: Again, we assume it's true. Even with his setup leaning towards qualy, Rosberg can't really qualify higher than 7th, usually. Even with his race setup, MS (provided he doesn't make any obvious driving errors in qualifying) doesn't drop lower than eight or ninth.

With that in mind, how dumb would Ross Brawn have to be to waste Nico Rosbergs race pace with a qualifying setup that get's him just ahead of Schumacher but nowhere else?

Hm? :D

Nico best Q result 3rd, MS - 5th ? Hm? So, it is not the question if RB is dumb. Team can just try different routes with both drivers, they saw long time ago that they go nowhere. Learning stuff. Knowledge. Testing. I personally tell them many times to test only with car number 8, but they didn't listen to me.

Edited by ivand911, 23 November 2011 - 19:00.


#15694 as65p

as65p
  • Member

  • 18,446 posts
  • Joined: June 04

Posted 23 November 2011 - 19:06

Nico best Q result 3rd, MS - 5th ? Hm? So, it is not the question if RB is dumb. Team can just try different routes with both drivers, they saw long time ago that they go nowhere. Learning stuff. Knowledge. Testing. I personally tell them many times to test only with car number 8, but they didn't listen to me.


You don't understand or simply refuse to, no surprise there.

The point stands, if Brawn allows or tolerates Rosbergs side of the garage going with a setup that compromises race pace while not giving any benefits on sunday, for a whole season, he would be dumb.

Of course he isn't dumb, I hope we can all agree on that one.. Which leaves a far simpler explanation, involving fans and their need to make up excuses for their heros underperfomances.

#15695 Jejking

Jejking
  • Member

  • 2,545 posts
  • Joined: June 11

Posted 23 November 2011 - 19:13

You don't understand or simply refuse to, no surprise there.

The point stands, if Brawn allows or tolerates Rosbergs side of the garage going with a setup that compromises race pace while not giving any benefits on sunday, for a whole season, he would be dumb.

Of course he isn't dumb, I hope we can all agree on that one.. Which leaves a far simpler explanation, involving fans and their need to make up excuses for their heros underperfomances.

You don't accept that he doesn't accept your opinion. Does that make him an idiot? Nope.

Every driver is working with the team to find a setup which suits them best in every circumstance. That is qualifying a bit and most part of the race, since the Parc Ferme rules kicked in years ago (2003?). Are you too stupid to understand that? If one thing works better for driver 1 on Saturday, it doesn't automatically mean he does a better job on Sunday. Like Schumacher proved several (not 100% of the) times this season. Nobody here says that Rosberg is only going for one lap glory, that's what you make of it and that's just a sad display to counter stuff with what you accuse us with of what you think we think. Or something. :')

*Worst English sentence EVER :stoned: *

Edited by Jejking, 23 November 2011 - 19:14.


#15696 MightyMoose

MightyMoose
  • RC Forum Host

  • 1,139 posts
  • Joined: July 10

Posted 23 November 2011 - 19:16

You don't understand or simply refuse to, no surprise there.

The point stands, if Brawn allows or tolerates Rosbergs side of the garage going with a setup that compromises race pace while not giving any benefits on sunday, for a whole season, he would be dumb.

Of course he isn't dumb, I hope we can all agree on that one.. Which leaves a far simpler explanation, involving fans and their need to make up excuses for their heros underperfomances.


So explain why there's a gap of roughly 0.3 secs in Q and in the races MS has often been right up the arse of NR from the opening laps and clearly appeared to have a faster & more consistent race pace.

Go find the Brawn quote Aspy.... read it, and interpret it how you wish. You can even file it away under "RB excuses MS's lack of pace" if you like. The fact remains it's out there and to deny it shows a blinkered attitude. I don't doubt that NR doesn't have an outright Q set-up, but it's fine to believe he has taken the line to optimize top gears etc for maximum DRS benefit whereas MS has gone the other way and tried to make up the shortfall in top speed by other methods.

#15697 Kubiccia

Kubiccia
  • Member

  • 1,370 posts
  • Joined: February 11

Posted 23 November 2011 - 19:58

http://uk.eurosport....acher-deal.html

#15698 as65p

as65p
  • Member

  • 18,446 posts
  • Joined: June 04

Posted 23 November 2011 - 20:29

....
I don't doubt that NR doesn't have an outright Q set-up, but it's fine to believe he has taken the line to optimize top gears etc for maximum DRS benefit whereas MS has gone the other way and tried to make up the shortfall in top speed by other methods.


You dodged the question I brought up. Why would Rosberg do that (and the team tolerating it) continually when evidently it doesn't bring any benefits for sunday? Or IOW, if he could improve his race pace by a few tenths by qualifying presumably 1 or 2 grid positions lower, you really think they wouldn't try that?

Sorry, but any day I'll go with the far simpler explanation that MS v2 s*cks a bit over one lap. Which BTW is what happens to most drivers with age, they get relatively slower over one single lap. No big deal really. Especially considering how much slower the cars lap in the races these days, it's perfectly feasible that MS feels way more comfortable on race day, allowing him to exploit his huge experience to lap roughly on Rosbergs level.

#15699 Szoelloe

Szoelloe
  • Member

  • 5,957 posts
  • Joined: December 06

Posted 23 November 2011 - 20:29

There is an exception to every rule :p
I will do the entire season for 2010 and 2011 and we will see the total picture. It may take some time so ...be patient. I don't think you will like the results.


That is where I have a completely different opinion. If the car shows potential podiums next year, these two are going to be much closer, and I happen to think that the results will not necessarily suit your taste. But as you say, we will only be able to decide on that next season. It is shoutingly clear that MS sucked on one lap against NR. That is not even worth the debate, though I respect the effort you put into it. Is the difference between them 8-9 tenths? No it isn't. It happened, but not regularly. I do not believe in qual vs race setup either. There is a very very small difference between a specific one-lap setup, and the usual intelligent compromise called for by the qualy system nowadays. I would understand a one-lap setup in the case of Vettel, when this handicap is compensated by shooting off from pole with no traffic to count with for the whole race, but when you know you are at the sharp end of midfield, I don't think they would try screwing about with there car in that way. It is unimaginable. I know it is my mania, but no off-throttle mapping will vastly improve MS's one-lap performance, same goes for some others like Hamilton, I think he is known to have a similar cornering technique.


edit: slate I misread your post.

Edited by Szoelloe, 23 November 2011 - 20:37.


Advertisement

#15700 Afterburner

Afterburner
  • Member

  • 4,095 posts
  • Joined: January 11

Posted 23 November 2011 - 20:53

Sorry, but any day I'll go with the far simpler explanation that MS v2 s*cks a bit over one lap. Which BTW is what happens to most drivers with age, they get relatively slower over one single lap. No big deal really. Especially considering how much slower the cars lap in the races these days, it's perfectly feasible that MS feels way more comfortable on race day--

I have to say I agree with this, because it's in line with the stance I've maintained throughout the year.

--allowing him to exploit his huge experience to lap roughly on Rosbergs level.

Though we could probably debate this one until the cows come home. ;)