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#1551 Boing 2

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Posted 04 May 2010 - 10:41

We're talking about different things. The rules stated the thread width should not exceed 270mm throughout the sessions. It's not about degradation. What happened was that they had a tyre that whilst in use at a high speeds expanded so they had more surface touching the asphalt. That resulted in more grip. The FIA basically had a flawed measuring point in only measuring it before the race as this was no way of making sure they would not expand beyond 270mm throughout the race.



The tyres were found to have wear marks outside of the allowable tread dimensions but the defense for this was that the side of the tyres were being worn by contact with the kerbs, that's a degradation issue. I haven't heard anything about the tyres getting wider at speed. In fac,t as centrifugal force increases the diameter of the tyre at speed it would surely, if anything, peel the edges of the tyre up off the road and make the contact patch narrower.

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#1552 ademm

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Posted 04 May 2010 - 11:00

Dupasquier: "Absolutely, oh yes, absolutely. And we would have told him in response that ************** this part of the tyre is not in constant and permanent contact with the ground********************, so it's not the tread."

Read this part again and again. He is admitting he was cheating.
Would it be ok if someone came with an engine design which in the corners use two extra cylinders?
This is the same thing.


#1553 Buttoneer

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Posted 04 May 2010 - 11:17

I accept that Tyregate has a little relevance to the thread but, once again, the thread topic is this;

Aim of this thread is to discuss issues related to Michael Schumacher. After Bahrain voices were heard about several weaknesses in his current cornering technique. It is my hope we can continue in that spirit, and check on him through the season.

This is not a thread about the technicalities of the issue.

Unless members are going to get back on topic and illustrate the relevancy to the topic, this thread WILL be closed.

#1554 aditya-now

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Posted 04 May 2010 - 12:57

You can´t take out of Michael Schumacher the cornering technique and its effect on the rear tyres - it´s always been there, and in some years like 2005 and 2010 the regs did not favour Michael´s driving style and exposed the effect of his cornering technique on the rear tyres, whereas in the majority of the years the regs suited Michael´s driving style perfectly.

So we cannot isolate 2010, as Michael is still Michael and his driving style is still his driving style. He cannot just out of the blue adopt a totally different driving style overnight. Still, 2010 so far proves a point.

As I understood the OP, we shall check back during the current season how the cornering style of Michael plays out. That means, this point might be further proved or, when Michael/Mercedes turns it around, we shall see that he is indeed a driver of impeccable standards, even so far as managing to adapt his driving style at the mature age of 41.

Aim of this thread is to discuss issues related to Michael Schumacher. After Bahrain voices were heard about several weaknesses in his current cornering technique. It is my hope we can continue in that spirit, and check on him through the season.

I wish to welcome all, friends and also those ready for conversion as well.;)


Quite cryptic, this last sentence about "being ready for conversion", let´s see who gets converted! Usually people just want to see their own opinions supported and can get quite peeved when this is not happening. While I am not interested in converting anyone, so far those who have the picture of the MS of the past in their brains were not highly appreciative of being "converted", even if evidence in 2010 speaks a clear language.

So lets "check back on Michael" during the season and see were the trend goes...

:smoking:

#1555 Sulman

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Posted 04 May 2010 - 13:01

I'll say right up front that I was never a big Schumacher fan. I didn't like his sporting ethics, nor his attitude. However, he is far from finished and past it. In fact, I believe he is doing as well as he could be. The reason he is struggling - relatively - is exactly the same reason he did so well in the past: Preparation, preparation, preparation. There is no magic to it, simply a lot of hard work, done the right way. I suspect some parts of the 2010 F1 picture have taken him by surprise. Easily done when you are seven times wdc.

He has had three years away. In that time, testing has been cut dramatically. The aerodynamic, tyre, and mechanical characteristics of the cars are different. The only way to get the understanding of these cars - with this configuration - is to get the hours in. Schumacher's discipline and precision are legendary, and he will know precisely where he is going wrong. He simply does not have the hours in the car to find the improvement, so he is having to do it in the races.

What Schumacher needs to achieve is a leap of progress in understanding the issues slowing him down. Both Brawn and Schumacher have a history of 'finding tenths'. Look at the 1995 and 1997 seasons. A tremendous effort went into eeking out a little time everywhere, both in car and driver. He will need to do all of this again, but without the advantage of being able to test the hell out of it. There's no doubting his innate speed - it is still there - but you could see in Shanghai that he does not understand the behaviour of the tyres because he has not had time to learn. He ripped the hell out of his inters because he didn't have the experience of them to know that you can't do that anymore. One part of the story I'd like to know is how much education Schumacher has undertaken. Back in the day he would have been bending the engineer's ear and knowing all of this stuff in advance, and I do wonder if he thought it might be a little easier this time.

I never thought I'd catch myself saying it, but I look forward to him being more competitive.

Edited by Sulman, 04 May 2010 - 13:08.


#1556 Owen

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Posted 04 May 2010 - 13:40

I think it will be harder and harder for him," said Briatore when asked if he expected Schumacher to improve during the season.


http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/83319

Hardly unexpected I suppose though.

#1557 merschu

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Posted 04 May 2010 - 15:29

Berger backs Schumacher amid comeback negativity

Gerhard Berger has backed Michael Schumacher amid a climate of continuing criticism of the seven time world champion’s performance so far in 2010."I find all the talk about Michael a bit tedious, because it is always with a negative slant," 10-time GP winner Berger, who raced in Schumacher’s era until retiring in 1997, said on Austrian TV ’Sport und Talk aus dem Hangar 7’."Michael has come back and is doing what he wants. I think you cannot change the status of someone who is a seven time world champion," added the 50-year-old former Ferrari and McLaren driver.

Austrian Berger backs Schumacher to improve his pace in the forthcoming races."We know his ambition. We know that if he does something, he does it right. I think we must take him seriously again in the future," he said."I think he has done an excellent job so far - except for the last race. In the first three grands prix he was in the top six of the championship. That is a great achievement," added Berger.


Vettel and Sutil also defending Schumacher

Also defending Schumacher is his countryman and friend Sebastian Vettel, who until the great German’s struggle in 2010 was nicknamed by the German press ’Baby-Schumi’.

"He is yet to exhaust the potential of his car and will therefore get better from a driving point of view from race to race," the Red Bull driver told Switzerland’s Motorsport Aktuell."I wouldn’t write him off for a long time," added 22-year-old Vettel.

Force India’s Adrian Sutil also sees nothing odd about Schumacher’s comeback to date.

"I had counted on it being difficult for him. Formula one has changed to the extremes in the past few years so that you can lose half a second and not know exactly why," he told spox.com."Plus it would have been funny if Schumacher had beaten us all after three years of being retired - then he really would have been the god of F1."That doesn’t mean he’s doing badly; on the contrary, he’s always in the top ten. He only needs time," added Sutil.


http://motorsport.ne...negativity.html



#1558 Sakae

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Posted 04 May 2010 - 18:45

Something what we aren't lacking is a spectrum of differing, and frequently contradictory views not only who Schumacher is, but where he is going. Over the years if I have learned anything as his fan, than it is to be patient, and remaining still to let him work, and suprise me every time. Only when he will say "I am done in here", then we will know he is done, and not any time sooner.

Edited by Sakae, 04 May 2010 - 18:47.


#1559 undersquare

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Posted 04 May 2010 - 21:04

Have you read the interview????

http://atlasf1.autos...ov17/goren.html

another part for you

Please - read the interview and if you still don't get what he's saying - start a new thread about it...


Yes I have read the interview. What's more, I understood what it did and did not say.

Rather than ignoring anything inconvenient and being rude, I took note of the phrase "before Hungary".

And also, in any case, I take note of
"The message that Charlie Whiting sent the teams last year stated that from there on, the FIA was going to measure the tread width on worn tyres
Dupasquier: "Yes."
BG: And you're telling me they don't do it
Dupasquier: "No, the continue to measure it on fresh ones. They don't care. Somebody was pressuring them to say, why don't you find something to discredit the Michelins..."
BG: Somebody? Ferrari
Dupasquier: "Yeah, yeah. Sure."

And so irrespective of the actual tyres, we see how Michael's team used its excessive influence to get the Michelin teams unfairly hindered by the FIA. Ross Brawn in action in fact, Schumi's long-standing aide in many questionable advantages.

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#1560 MikeTekRacing

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Posted 04 May 2010 - 21:08

discredit the Michelins?
nobody could do a far better job than they did 2 years later in USA, so all of the conspiracy failed.

you still ignore that JPM said there was no real difference at monza....
in indianapolis it rained and jpm got a penalty for ramming rubens so it was game over for williams
kimi's title dream was kept alive by luck in suzuka's qualy, but few remember that

#1561 Raelene

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Posted 04 May 2010 - 22:13

Yes I have read the interview. What's more, I understood what it did and did not say.

Rather than ignoring anything inconvenient and being rude, I took note of the phrase "before Hungary".

...
And so irrespective of the actual tyres, we see how Michael's team used its excessive influence to get the Michelin teams unfairly hindered by the FIA. Ross Brawn in action in fact, Schumi's long-standing aide in many questionable advantages.

1. I am not being rude - You will see he clearly talks about 2003 and how they DID NOT CHANGE TYRES.
2. I agree WITH YOU re: them trying to hinder Michelin - you don't think all teams try to hinder other teams!!
3. Again - start a separate thread

Edited by Raelene, 04 May 2010 - 22:17.


#1562 undersquare

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Posted 04 May 2010 - 22:38

We'll see how MS gets on with the better balanced lwb car this weekend, on the same tyres as everybody else  ;) . I' was reminded I'd also forgotten the little controversy in 2003 about Bridgestone giving him a softer compound rear than front, and the FIA having a very quiet word about it; one little thing after another in those days...

Anyway it's his chance to show he can win on a level playing field, age apart.

#1563 Raelene

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Posted 04 May 2010 - 23:42

let's see

I reckon your boy Lewham is the next MS - fast, agressive, controversial, gets away with things others don't....

It's like when yoiu read about MS - if you looked back years before, you'd read the same stuff about Senna. In a few years time we'll do the same with Lewis...there's always going to b e amegastar that gets away with more than others.

#1564 George Costanza

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Posted 05 May 2010 - 00:05

let's see

I reckon your boy Lewham is the next MS - fast, agressive, controversial, gets away with things others don't....

It's like when yoiu read about MS - if you looked back years before, you'd read the same stuff about Senna. In a few years time we'll do the same with Lewis...there's always going to b e amegastar that gets away with more than others.


He is not the Michael Schumacher. Let's drop that comparasion....



#1565 Ram20

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Posted 05 May 2010 - 00:35

He is better than Schumacher.. ....It's true!

LOL anyway.. I think the roads only going to get tougher for The shoemaker now, because not only his car but Rosberg's car is going to get upgraded too.

Edited by Ram20, 05 May 2010 - 00:35.


#1566 DaleCooper

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Posted 05 May 2010 - 03:21

I'll say right up front that I was never a big Schumacher fan. I didn't like his sporting ethics, nor his attitude. However, he is far from finished and past it. In fact, I believe he is doing as well as he could be. The reason he is struggling - relatively - is exactly the same reason he did so well in the past: Preparation, preparation, preparation. There is no magic to it, simply a lot of hard work, done the right way. I suspect some parts of the 2010 F1 picture have taken him by surprise. Easily done when you are seven times wdc.

He has had three years away. In that time, testing has been cut dramatically. The aerodynamic, tyre, and mechanical characteristics of the cars are different. The only way to get the understanding of these cars - with this configuration - is to get the hours in. Schumacher's discipline and precision are legendary, and he will know precisely where he is going wrong. He simply does not have the hours in the car to find the improvement, so he is having to do it in the races.

What Schumacher needs to achieve is a leap of progress in understanding the issues slowing him down. Both Brawn and Schumacher have a history of 'finding tenths'. Look at the 1995 and 1997 seasons. A tremendous effort went into eeking out a little time everywhere, both in car and driver. He will need to do all of this again, but without the advantage of being able to test the hell out of it. There's no doubting his innate speed - it is still there - but you could see in Shanghai that he does not understand the behaviour of the tyres because he has not had time to learn. He ripped the hell out of his inters because he didn't have the experience of them to know that you can't do that anymore. One part of the story I'd like to know is how much education Schumacher has undertaken. Back in the day he would have been bending the engineer's ear and knowing all of this stuff in advance, and I do wonder if he thought it might be a little easier this time.

I never thought I'd catch myself saying it, but I look forward to him being more competitive.



Good post, well put. :up:

I agree with much of that, and even if it's only a partial explanation, it is very plausible indeed. It may be though that this year's formula and Mercedes car do not suit his style, and he will be playing catchup most of the year, regardless of his understanding of how to maximize the car's performance. But no-one can say that he is doing a bad job, in light of the fact that nobody really understands what his problems stem from. I suspect that once his performance improves, he will be able to confirm his own theories on the matter, and then we will get a more satisfactory explanation.

Cooper

#1567 undersquare

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Posted 05 May 2010 - 07:01

let's see

I reckon your boy Lewham is the next MS - fast, agressive, controversial, gets away with things others don't....

It's like when yoiu read about MS - if you looked back years before, you'd read the same stuff about Senna. In a few years time we'll do the same with Lewis...there's always going to b e amegastar that gets away with more than others.


Well Michael has one big weakness compared to Lewis - he wants to win. And he always has defined that too narrowly so that he is willing to win in an unsporting way. Lewis wants 'to be the best', and that crucial difference will always save him from Schumi's kind of disrepute.

There are a lot of other parallels though, I agree.

#1568 pfdwxenon

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Posted 05 May 2010 - 07:56

someone posted a funny shot on our facebook-page (note: not owned, influenced or in any way supported by Schuberth ;-) ):

http://www.facebook....chuberthHelmets

Posted Image

;-)

#1569 baddog

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Posted 05 May 2010 - 08:59

Well Michael has one big weakness compared to Lewis - he wants to win. And he always has defined that too narrowly so that he is willing to win in an unsporting way. Lewis wants 'to be the best', and that crucial difference will always save him from Schumi's kind of disrepute.

Okay thats outright creepy. Really. He isnt a paragon of virtue you know, its alright to see weakness in your hero.

#1570 undersquare

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Posted 05 May 2010 - 09:09

Okay thats outright creepy. Really. He isnt a paragon of virtue you know, its alright to see weakness in your hero.


Yeah sure, pretend I said something extreme then argue against it. :yawnface:


#1571 cheapracer

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Posted 05 May 2010 - 09:11

We'll see how MS gets on with the better balanced lwb car this weekend, on the same tyres as everybody else ;) . I' was reminded I'd also forgotten the little controversy in 2003 about Bridgestone giving him a softer compound rear than front, and the FIA having a very quiet word about it; one little thing after another in those days...

Anyway it's his chance to show he can win on a level playing field, age apart.


I seriously can not believe the niavety in posts where people believe that MS/Brawn - *insert name whoever this week's target is - are the only ones who try to get every advantage they can.

It has been going on since motor racing began and teams have been "quietly spoken too" since motor racing began.

When Minardi 'take advantage' noone cares at that end but when FerLaren and McRarri do it it's headlines.

Harden up you wooses and certainly don't go near a NASCAR pit with your high and mighties :lol: .

#1572 undersquare

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Posted 05 May 2010 - 09:20

I seriously can not believe the niavety in posts where people believe that MS/Brawn - *insert name whoever this week's target is - are the only ones who try to get every advantage they can.

It has been going on since motor racing began and teams have been "quietly spoken too" since motor racing began.

When Minardi 'take advantage' noone cares at that end but when FerLaren and McRarri do it it's headlines.

Harden up you wooses and certainly don't go near a NASCAR pit with your high and mighties :lol: .


NASCAR :lol:

Well around here people get more credit for racing within the rules, than otherwise :p

#1573 aditya-now

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Posted 05 May 2010 - 09:24

Well Michael has one big weakness compared to Lewis - he wants to win. And he always has defined that too narrowly so that he is willing to win in an unsporting way. Lewis wants 'to be the best', and that crucial difference will always save him from Schumi's kind of disrepute.

There are a lot of other parallels though, I agree.


I have to agree on that. I see more parallels between Ayrton Senna and Lewis Hamilton than between Michael Schumacher and Lewis Hamilton.
Although, to be the best, you need to win....

So in a sense, Michael's theory has no inherent flaws (other than....we know), and his winning record shows that.

Edited by aditya-now, 05 May 2010 - 09:25.


#1574 aditya-now

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Posted 05 May 2010 - 09:27

http://www.facebook....chuberthHelmets

Posted Image

;-)


Excellent!
:lol: :up:



#1575 undersquare

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Posted 05 May 2010 - 09:30

I have to agree on that. I see more parallels between Ayrton Senna and Lewis Hamilton than between Michael Schumacher and Lewis Hamilton.
Although, to be the best, you need to win....

So in a sense, Michael's theory has no inherent flaws (other than....we know), and his winning record shows that.


I wonder if Michael would give up say 2 of his wdc's in exchange for a more sporting reputation? 'Cos for sure people don't rate him 2.3x as good as Senna...

#1576 Muz Bee

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Posted 05 May 2010 - 09:44

I wonder if Michael would give up say 2 of his wdc's in exchange for a more sporting reputation? 'Cos for sure people don't rate him 2.3x as good as Senna...

I somehow doubt it as he is a collector of trophies IMO. You have to hand it to him to be able to keep the passion going for such a long time. Unlike most champions he never woke up one day and said "I have nothing left to prove to anyone including myself". That's my perspective, of course he had to exceptional to achieve what he did even if he wasn't necessarily the very fastest for raw pace - it's about winning though surely.


#1577 Raelene

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Posted 05 May 2010 - 10:12

Undersquare

Give lewham a few more years.
I don't think he's the clean driver u think he is
he's made a few controversial moves.
He's also a proven liar all to gain an unfair advantage
I actually really liked him in year 1 but I think his success went to his head. I turned right off him after he made his monkey comments about backmarkers. He's an extremely talented driver though

#1578 Dragonfly

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Posted 05 May 2010 - 10:20

Undersquare

Give lewham a few more years.
I don't think he's the clean driver u think he is
he's made a few controversial moves.
He's also a proven liar all to gain an unfair advantage
I actually really liked him in year 1 but I think his success went to his head. I turned right off him after he made his monkey comments about backmarkers. He's an extremely talented driver though

+1

#1579 aditya-now

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Posted 05 May 2010 - 10:40

I somehow doubt it as he is a collector of trophies IMO. You have to hand it to him to be able to keep the passion going for such a long time. Unlike most champions he never woke up one day and said "I have nothing left to prove to anyone including myself". That's my perspective, of course he had to exceptional to achieve what he did even if he wasn't necessarily the very fastest for raw pace - it's about winning though surely.


That´s the greatest achievement of Michael Schumacher. He never gave up (to date).
Even in 2006 his retirement was basically not of his chosing, he was being retired by Luca di Montezemolo.

Possibly the WDC 2007 would have gone his way as well, plus 2008.
Having witnessed these two years from the box surely must have driven Michael crazy inwardly.
He could have raked up 9 WDCs by now.

Nonetheless, under current regs I see his chances slim. Especially, as Rosberg is always driving the same car. What a prestige victory for Nico so far!


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#1580 merschu

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Posted 05 May 2010 - 11:05

F1 should 'wait' before assessing Schumacher comeback - Todt

After the opening four races of 2010, many vocal members of the world of Grand Prix racing expressed disappointment and criticism of the seven time world champion's performance. But FIA president Todt, who is a close friend of the 41-year-old German's after his long former career as Ferrari team boss, expressed a different attitude during a visit to Spain on Tuesday.

"Just with his presence, there are a lot of people going to the circuits this year; the interest in the championship has grown considerably," he is quoted as saying by La Gazzetta dello Sport. "As for his results, I'd say it's too early to judge. Don't forget that he has returned from a long period of inactivity," added Todt.

In the pages of Spain's El Pais, the Frenchman is quoted as also saying: "Even a great champion needs a good car to be competitive", while in Diario AS Todt reportedly added that Schumacher's return demonstrates "that he still has the same passion for racing". "It's no secret that Michael and I are friends so I would rather see him at the wheel of a F1 car than a motorbike which is much more dangerous. "When we are closer to the end of the season we will know more about whether Schumacher's performance was the same as before. We have to wait," said Todt.


Bridgestone's Hirohide Hamashima thinks the main problem for Schumacher at present is the tyres.

"The tyre of 2006 was developed mainly by Schumacher," the Japanese told Switzerland's Blick. "Now that the front tyre is a lot weaker, it doesn't really fit his style."


http://www.motorspor...p...66758&FS=F1

Edited by merschu, 05 May 2010 - 11:09.


#1581 aditya-now

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Posted 05 May 2010 - 11:10

QUOTE
F1 should 'wait' before assessing Schumacher comeback - Todt


If it were still the Mosley era, that could be seen as a thinly veiled threat to the rest of the world.
So I hope Jean Todt will remain impartial and not have a hand in changing the regs in favour of his old friend MS.

What we have seen so far from Jean Todt has impressed me, not a foot wrong so far.


#1582 undersquare

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Posted 05 May 2010 - 11:39

Undersquare

Give lewham a few more years.
I don't think he's the clean driver u think he is
he's made a few controversial moves.
He's also a proven liar all to gain an unfair advantage
I actually really liked him in year 1 but I think his success went to his head. I turned right off him after he made his monkey comments about backmarkers. He's an extremely talented driver though


Well the 'monkeys at the back' comment was a little joke about his suprise situation in F1, made on tv in Monaco when he arrived there leading the championship after his fourth ever GP.

It was a touch of modesty in fact, but without the tv picture it was reported as something quite different. I do agree it would have been a dreadful arrogance if he'd meant it seriously.

However in general when this is explained his detractors never change their mind about him.

Just as they never accept that Ryan ran liegate and always say "proven" liar as though that makes a difference.

Personally I think it was far worse that Schumi never admitted his cheats or apologised for them.

#1583 libano

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Posted 05 May 2010 - 12:11

Yeah sure, pretend I said something extreme then argue against it. :yawnface:



the problem you're having is that you're talking out of your a$$. your comment about wanting to win vs wanting to be the best makes absolutely no sense. rest assured, anyone on the grid wants to win at any cost, it's that sort of single-mindedness that you need to even reach that level of motorsport.

:rolleyes:

#1584 undersquare

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Posted 05 May 2010 - 12:27

the problem you're having is that you're talking out of your a$$. your comment about wanting to win vs wanting to be the best makes absolutely no sense. rest assured, anyone on the grid wants to win at any cost, it's that sort of single-mindedness that you need to even reach that level of motorsport.

:rolleyes:


I'm not having a problem :) . I would have a problem if were trying to claim all the drivers have the same degree of ruthlessness.

And I'd have all kinds of problems I expect if I couldn't see the difference between success in a sport and cheating your way to a win. Suppose there were a drug, and Driver X used it to win, what would you think?

Well I suppose if it were Schumi it would all be OK and you'd be claiming they all take them :stoned:

#1585 marchi-91

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Posted 05 May 2010 - 13:28

Well Michael has one big weakness compared to Lewis - he wants to win. And he always has defined that too narrowly so that he is willing to win in an unsporting way. Lewis wants 'to be the best', and that crucial difference will always save him from Schumi's kind of disrepute.

There are a lot of other parallels though, I agree.


You are fully aware that Michael has never compared himself to anybody. One of his motto's is that "You must always strive to be the best, but you must never think you are". Your boy Hamilton has already broken that motto with his little quip about nobody passes him.....




#1586 undersquare

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Posted 05 May 2010 - 15:01

You are fully aware that Michael has never compared himself to anybody. One of his motto's is that "You must always strive to be the best, but you must never think you are". Your boy Hamilton has already broken that motto with his little quip about nobody passes him.....


Thought that was JYS tbh. Not that it matters how many mottos Schumi's had.

Hammy has a long long way to go to be compared to Michael, he's 16 years younger, my point is that some Schumifans' attempts to excuse his unporting ethics by saying Lewis is the same are wrong. Fundamentally wrong, because their goals are that crucial bit different.

#1587 Buttoneer

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Posted 05 May 2010 - 15:03

Not a Hamilton thread. Please ensure it stays relevant.

#1588 libano

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Posted 05 May 2010 - 15:33

I'm not having a problem :) . I would have a problem if were trying to claim all the drivers have the same degree of ruthlessness.

And I'd have all kinds of problems I expect if I couldn't see the difference between success in a sport and cheating your way to a win. Suppose there were a drug, and Driver X used it to win, what would you think?

Well I suppose if it were Schumi it would all be OK and you'd be claiming they all take them :stoned:


the point you're making now is absolutely valid, i was just referring to your statement of wanting to win vs wanting to be the best.

i don't get you, though. if you are looking for honest, clean sport, why on earth are you into formula 1? there will never be a level playing field in this sport.

besides, your notion of schumacher cheating his way into 7 world titles while your preferred driver is stuck where he is because of his honesty is a bit ridiculous, don't you think?


#1589 undersquare

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Posted 05 May 2010 - 16:00

the point you're making now is absolutely valid, i was just referring to your statement of wanting to win vs wanting to be the best.

i don't get you, though. if you are looking for honest, clean sport, why on earth are you into formula 1? there will never be a level playing field in this sport.

besides, your notion of schumacher cheating his way into 7 world titles while your preferred driver is stuck where he is because of his honesty is a bit ridiculous, don't you think?


I don't think Schumi cheated his way to 7 titles. The 1994 one, yes. F3, yes. The others are just a bit tainted by the other goings on perhaps, not only by MS himself but by those around him and Max. Even thought it's formula1 there are still limits, and we all respect clean racing more than dirty racing.

The point about the goals is that just aiming 'to win' is a very narrow goal, and can be achieved by all sorts of means. Somebody "won" Indy 05. And because of his behaviour it's clear Michael did set out merely 'to win' even at the expense of his reputation.

For many or even most of us, he'd have been a greater figure and 'more successful' if he'd won less but in a more sporting way.

If he'd honoured his agreement with Jordan, just for starters.

#1590 sephiroth

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Posted 05 May 2010 - 16:26

The 1994 one, yes


Yeah right. That was the one title that Schumacher deserved more than any other. If the british FIA hadn't cheated the crap out of that season Schumi would have won even faster than 2004.

#1591 OO7

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Posted 05 May 2010 - 16:30

Yeah right. That was the one title that Schumacher deserved more than any other. If the british FIA hadn't cheated the crap out of that season Schumi would have won even faster than 2004.

1994 was the year in which the Benetton, despite the convoluted menu selection, was found to have traction control/launch control software still active in the car. They also removed filters in the refuelling system.

#1592 libano

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Posted 05 May 2010 - 16:32

I don't think Schumi cheated his way to 7 titles. The 1994 one, yes. F3, yes. The others are just a bit tainted by the other goings on perhaps, not only by MS himself but by those around him and Max. Even thought it's formula1 there are still limits, and we all respect clean racing more than dirty racing.

The point about the goals is that just aiming 'to win' is a very narrow goal, and can be achieved by all sorts of means. Somebody "won" Indy 05. And because of his behaviour it's clear Michael did set out merely 'to win' even at the expense of his reputation.

For many or even most of us, he'd have been a greater figure and 'more successful' if he'd won less but in a more sporting way.

If he'd honoured his agreement with Jordan, just for starters.


i think to many here on this forum he'd be a greater figure with a british passport.  ;)
nobody likes a kraut in a winning mood, eh.



#1593 SparkPlug

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Posted 05 May 2010 - 16:54

i think to many here on this forum he'd be a greater figure with a british passport. ;)
nobody likes a kraut in a winning mood, eh.

Said it like it is. :up:

#1594 SparkPlug

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Posted 05 May 2010 - 16:57

I can easily tell that many of the so called Senna worshippers have never seen him race live at all. Senna was atleast as big a cheat as Schumacher. Whats more Schumi never once abandoned or threatened his team.

Its a pretty clear case of hypocrisy if you ask me

#1595 MikeTekRacing

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Posted 05 May 2010 - 17:00

If he'd honoured his agreement with Jordan, just for starters.

like jenson with williams you mean?
oops :)

#1596 Fortymark

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Posted 05 May 2010 - 17:15

like jenson with williams you mean?
oops :)


What year do you mean?

#1597 sephiroth

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Posted 05 May 2010 - 18:05

1994 was the year in which the Benetton, despite the convoluted menu selection, was found to have traction control/launch control software still active in the car. They also removed filters in the refuelling system.


Which they never actually proved was used.

#1598 Sulman

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Posted 05 May 2010 - 18:12

Which they never actually proved was used.


Perhaps not. There were rumours from Aida that year that Benetton were using traction control (and Ferrari, after Larini let it slip in a pc. Mclaren got done using a fully-automatic upshift, if memory serves). Likewise, Tom Walkinshaw was kicked sideways to Ligier for the next year (seen speculatively as a sacrificial scalp), and the non-compliant fuel rig most certainly was used.

Schumacher did a sterling job that year but in my opinion there was was some distinct rule-bending going on at the team. Pat Symonds denies this repeatedly, but look what he went on to do...




#1599 undersquare

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Posted 05 May 2010 - 18:18

i think to many here on this forum he'd be a greater figure with a british passport. ;)
nobody likes a kraut in a winning mood, eh.


Abject cop-out :well: .

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#1600 rm111

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Posted 05 May 2010 - 19:30

:up:

I can easily tell that many of the so called Senna worshippers have never seen him race live at all. Senna was atleast as big a cheat as Schumacher. Whats more Schumi never once abandoned or threatened his team.

Its a pretty clear case of hypocrisy if you ask me

:up: