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Michael Schumacher (merged)


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#16201 Sakae

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Posted 18 December 2011 - 14:19

I am not sure why, but this specifications lists 6 passengers. (But I see also the other pictures).

http://www.dassaultf...performance.jsp

Edited by Sakae, 18 December 2011 - 14:25.


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#16202 ivand911

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Posted 18 December 2011 - 14:37

I am not sure why, but this specifications lists 6 passengers. (But I see also the other pictures).

http://www.dassaultf...performance.jsp

It shows airplane performance with 6 passengers on board.  ;)

#16203 Sakae

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Posted 18 December 2011 - 15:01

It shows airplane performance with 6 passengers on board. ;)

I see, bad me. It was after midnight when I look at it with my eyes half closed. Thanks.

Falcon seems much luxuriously made inside than G650 (at least on the internet, as I do not own one).

#16204 tkulla

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Posted 18 December 2011 - 15:18

This is news? Of course its hurt, he was out of F1 for 3 years...its amazing how many people thought he'd return and take no time to find his feet.

F1 develops at an astonishing rate, far more so than the old days. Half a season out would affect a drivers performance, particularly if their unfamiliar with the car.

Its what will make Raikkonens return interesting viewing.


It makes me wonder. How well would Michael have done with unlimited testing? Would it have created problems with Nico (by trying to get as much of that testing as possible)?

For that matter, would Michael have been so dominant during his prime years with the urgent testing rules, or would it have given Rubens more equal footing within the team?

#16205 ivand911

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Posted 18 December 2011 - 15:31

It makes me wonder. How well would Michael have done with unlimited testing? Would it have created problems with Nico (by trying to get as much of that testing as possible)?

For that matter, would Michael have been so dominant during his prime years with the urgent testing rules, or would it have given Rubens more equal footing within the team?

I think they would have equal testing time.
About Rubens - he and Badoer have more testing time in some years than Michael. But, never Michael have like 10000km and Rubens 5000km. They usually did around 11000 km per year. Testing mileage can be found on internet. I post it before. But, you can say that Michael use their testing results for his own/team good, as Rubens use Michaels too.

Edited by ivand911, 18 December 2011 - 15:37.


#16206 Szoelloe

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Posted 18 December 2011 - 15:39

It makes me wonder. How well would Michael have done with unlimited testing? Would it have created problems with Nico (by trying to get as much of that testing as possible)?

For that matter, would Michael have been so dominant during his prime years with the urgent testing rules, or would it have given Rubens more equal footing within the team?


It's hard to say, but IMHO, no, it would have not given RB an edge. It could have given somewhat more weight to RB, He was always known for his fast feel for finding setups, MS always experimented more with his race engineer.


#16207 tkulla

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Posted 18 December 2011 - 15:49

I think they would have equal testing time.
About Rubens - he and Badoer have more testing time in some years than Michael. But, never Michael have like 10000km and Rubens 5000km. They usually did around 11000 km per year. Testing mileage can be found on internet. I post it before. But, you can say that Michael use their testing results for his own/team good, as Rubens use Michaels too.


Fair enough. But maybe the difference would have been Badoer's la k of testing, which Schumi's often said was vital. The question is whether Luca's mission was to try to get the car set up to fit Schumacher or whether he just did straight up development testing.

#16208 Szoelloe

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Posted 18 December 2011 - 16:03

Fair enough. But maybe the difference would have been Badoer's la k of testing, which Schumi's often said was vital. The question is whether Luca's mission was to try to get the car set up to fit Schumacher or whether he just did straight up development testing.


Well, that would depend on how different the needs of RB and MS were. I don't think they were different because MS used, as I said before, RB's setups frequently. So no, I don't think Badoer was just testink for MS, it was more like pre-testing the developments for the car and the race drivers. One has to say, it was an efficient structure, with them owning their own race track. I think MS was simply better than RB, that's all. On his days, RB could beat MS, but that's just it: He was never consistent enough to pull the rabbit out of the hat on a regular basis, whereas MS has was always like a Swiss watch in that respect. I see that kind of freaky ability to concentrate in Vettel only from the current crop, maybe Alonso too, but to lesser extent.


#16209 ivand911

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Posted 19 December 2011 - 11:06

Very good read(the article):
http://forums.autosp...howtopic=158925
It explain some of Michael performance. As car goes from understeer(when heavy) to oversteer , he goes faster. Slower first stint and faster next ones.

#16210 spa08

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Posted 19 December 2011 - 13:55

Very good read(the article):
http://forums.autosp...howtopic=158925
It explain some of Michael performance. As car goes from understeer(when heavy) to oversteer , he goes faster. Slower first stint and faster next ones.


Strange when at its lightest in qualifying he struggles to get the maximum out of the car

#16211 metz

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Posted 19 December 2011 - 14:09

Strange when at its lightest in qualifying he struggles to get the maximum out of the car

Not realy. Tyre temp is different.

#16212 ivand911

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Posted 19 December 2011 - 15:35

Strange when at its lightest in qualifying he struggles to get the maximum out of the car

The Qualy(Q3) is not what it used to be. They don't push to the maximum(some times don't even do a lap). Don't even go for it. To save tyres.

#16213 spa08

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Posted 19 December 2011 - 16:12

Not realy. Tyre temp is different.


I doubt schumacher struggles to get the correct temp with his driving style

#16214 Szoelloe

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Posted 19 December 2011 - 16:14

I doubt schumacher struggles to get the correct temp with his driving style


No he is not. At least I don't think he as any tyre issues. His one lap issues are EBD related.


#16215 as65p

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Posted 19 December 2011 - 17:56

No he is not. At least I don't think he as any tyre issues. His one lap issues are EBD related.


I think they're simply speed related. Qualifying laps are often 4 secs or more faster nowadays than what they do in the race. It appears MS is out of his comfort zone at qualifying speed. In the race, lapping slower, all his experience and race craft kicks in and he looks quite good again.

#16216 Szoelloe

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Posted 19 December 2011 - 18:03

I think they're simply speed related. Qualifying laps are often 4 secs or more faster nowadays than what they do in the race. It appears MS is out of his comfort zone at qualifying speed. In the race, lapping slower, all his experience and race craft kicks in and he looks quite good again.


Possible. Still, I think the gap was exaggerated by the EBD, but you could still be right. We'll see next season. I am mighty curious if he can up his game in qualy or not.


#16217 spa08

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Posted 19 December 2011 - 18:09

I think they're simply speed related. Qualifying laps are often 4 secs or more faster nowadays than what they do in the race. It appears MS is out of his comfort zone at qualifying speed. In the race, lapping slower, all his experience and race craft kicks in and he looks quite good again.


How though? Don't tell me it's fitness related because I bet he's one of the fittest of drivers and I'm sure he's probably the strongest driver on the grid.

#16218 DutchCruijff

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Posted 19 December 2011 - 18:41

There is no doubt in my mind that his problems, relative to his age of course, concerning Qualifying is more mechanical rather than psychological.

#16219 baddog

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Posted 19 December 2011 - 18:42

I think they're simply speed related. Qualifying laps are often 4 secs or more faster nowadays than what they do in the race. It appears MS is out of his comfort zone at qualifying speed. In the race, lapping slower, all his experience and race craft kicks in and he looks quite good again.

Thats unlikely. The EBD simply hasnt worked for him, it would be easy (obviously because most people have not even noticed it) to underestimate the effect this has on his driving. Without it it is very possible there will be some suprises next year.

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#16220 Afterburner

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Posted 19 December 2011 - 18:51

Thats unlikely. The EBD simply hasnt worked for him, it would be easy (obviously because most people have not even noticed it) to underestimate the effect this has on his driving. Without it it is very possible there will be some suprises next year.

Personally, I'll believe it when I see it. I'm very optimistic for a change but I'm not looking for excuses (or miracles) right now, lol. It would be nice to be able to put his underperformance thus far down to issues with the car, though we don't have solid evidence for that and Rosberg makes a very convincing case that the car isn't the problem.

#16221 Schumacher7

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Posted 19 December 2011 - 20:19

Personally, I'll believe it when I see it. I'm very optimistic for a change but I'm not looking for excuses (or miracles) right now, lol. It would be nice to be able to put his underperformance thus far down to issues with the car, though we don't have solid evidence for that and Rosberg makes a very convincing case that the car isn't the problem.

Exactly how I feel, I'm hoping next year he's immediately on it and it was the EBD making the difference but I doubt it was solely that even if it has played a part.

#16222 baddog

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Posted 19 December 2011 - 21:45

Just to be clear, its not an excuse.. its an accusation of a failure on his part to adapt his driving to the cars as they are. Lack of ability to absolutely max out the car when it doesnt suit him in this way is a definite weakness.

#16223 Szoelloe

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Posted 19 December 2011 - 21:56

Just to be clear, its not an excuse.. its an accusation of a failure on his part to adapt his driving to the cars as they are. Lack of ability to absolutely max out the car when it doesnt suit him in this way is a definite weakness.


Well I did not mean it to be an excuse either, explanation - maybe. I think extreme engine mapping has hurt quite a few drivers this year, and the only one who could more or less cope with it was FA, but maybe he does not use that much the throttle for car control, and it suited him, I really cannot decide. About this "driving around a car's flaws" thingy, it's true for some top drivers, but when something affects the part of a given drivers style that enables him to do that, well, that sucks.


#16224 as65p

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Posted 19 December 2011 - 22:05

How though? Don't tell me it's fitness related because I bet he's one of the fittest of drivers and I'm sure he's probably the strongest driver on the grid.


I don't know how exactly, obviously. It's just my impression. Aside from the, let's says, strange mechanical mishaps that always seems to befall his car in qualifying, he visibly makes a lot of driving mistakes on his qualy laps. More than Rosberg certainly, possibly more than all other top drivers, far more than he makes in the races. I known the theory of his driving style not suitable to this generation of cars (EBD), but I'm not convinced at all that's the reason. Guess we should find out in 2011.

As to fitness, it always beats me how people think they can decide that by looks. Not saying he ain't fit enough, just that we have no way of knowing, one way or the other. It's a trivial truth that looks can be soooo deceiving. A favourite example of mine (in the opposite direction) is Montoya during his spell in F1. His chunky frame always provoked jokes about lack of fitness, yet I can't remember a single race where he appeared overly exhausted at the finish, quite the contrary in fact.

#16225 Szoelloe

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Posted 19 December 2011 - 22:11

I don't know how exactly, obviously. It's just my impression. Aside from the, let's says, strange mechanical mishaps that always seems to befall his car in qualifying, he visibly makes a lot of driving mistakes on his qualy laps. More than Rosberg certainly, possibly more than all other top drivers, far more than he makes in the races. I known the theory of his driving style not suitable to this generation of cars (EBD), but I'm not convinced at all that's the reason. Guess we should find out in 2011.

As to fitness, it always beats me how people think they can decide that by looks. Not saying he ain't fit enough, just that we have no way of knowing, one way or the other. It's a trivial truth that looks can be soooo deceiving. A favourite example of mine (in the opposite direction) is Montoya during his spell in F1. His chunky frame always provoked jokes about lack of fitness, yet I can't remember a single race where he appeared overly exhausted at the finish, quite the contrary in fact.


I would say high, very high fitness level is nowadays a standard among most drivers. Thus, it gives no edge any more over each other.


#16226 as65p

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Posted 19 December 2011 - 22:18

I would say high, very high fitness level is nowadays a standard among most drivers. Thus, it gives no edge any more over each other.


Agreed. No ciggies on the podium anymore.... :cry:  ;) . They all ought to be fit enough. And anyway, we're talking single lap speed where it count's the least, relatively. I don't think at all MS qualifying troubles have to do with body fitness, the indications for that would come in the last stints of the races, and evidently he has no problems there.

#16227 spa08

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Posted 20 December 2011 - 00:31

Agreed. No ciggies on the podium anymore.... :cry: ;) . They all ought to be fit enough. And anyway, we're talking single lap speed where it count's the least, relatively. I don't think at all MS qualifying troubles have to do with body fitness, the indications for that would come in the last stints of the races, and evidently he has no problems there.


It could just be a case of pressure and overdriving, getting that perfect lap in so little time is crucial. Mess up and everything escalates and the situation gets worse. Though I think it happens too often to be that reason

#16228 Callisto

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Posted 20 December 2011 - 02:32

Cool plane :up:

#16229 ivand911

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Posted 20 December 2011 - 08:23

But, you have to agree that many time this year, plan was not even to fight Nico for forward place? To save precious tyres. I am not sure if they were fighting for podiums every race MS will behave like this. Because they fight for 7th usually it was good to use this strategy. Michael even "tragic" in the Q , almost beat Nico. In how many Qualy they really fight? 4-5? From 19? We will see this year I guess.
Can they come with different set up for the race from the simulator? Michael use simulator, make his car, then Nico use the simulator ,make his car. So ,they can come on the track with different cars and strategy. From Racer article they come on the track with set up 90% ready. But, what this mean, how different are their cars?
http://www.racer.com...article/219407/

Edited by ivand911, 20 December 2011 - 08:27.


#16230 Szoelloe

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Posted 20 December 2011 - 11:18

But, you have to agree that many time this year, plan was not even to fight Nico for forward place? To save precious tyres. I am not sure if they were fighting for podiums every race MS will behave like this. Because they fight for 7th usually it was good to use this strategy. Michael even "tragic" in the Q , almost beat Nico. In how many Qualy they really fight? 4-5? From 19? We will see this year I guess.
Can they come with different set up for the race from the simulator? Michael use simulator, make his car, then Nico use the simulator ,make his car. So ,they can come on the track with different cars and strategy. From Racer article they come on the track with set up 90% ready. But, what this mean, how different are their cars?
http://www.racer.com...article/219407/


"B" plan, maybe. But still, MS was never too concerned with slotting in behind NR, and said so several times. I don't think it was the plan, to me it seemed more like he knew and accepted that he is slower on one lap currently. As Spa08 said, on his hot laps it could be seen that he tried what he could, over driving the car several times, and made mistakes. If you looked at onboard NR in qualys, he was much smoother during cornering fully exploiting the EBD engine mapping, whereas MS could not seem to get on top of his braking/accelerating points, which practically frekked his times. I was always surprised to see this, and unfortunately it was a major part of his natural speed, I think, his exit speed was always awesome, and now its not there. If this is cause by inabality to get on top of the EBD engine mapping, than we could see him getting better on one lap next season. If not, than I accept he lost some of his speed. But I still think it is the former.

edit: I don't think this can be answered with setup differences, and they said several times that they perfer similar things from the car.

Edited by Szoelloe, 20 December 2011 - 11:21.


#16231 spa08

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Posted 20 December 2011 - 12:08

I don't believe for one minute that nico sets his car up more for qualifying than Michael. These guys are not stupid and they all know that you get points for the race. Michael for reasons unclear is not able to produce quality qualifying laps, let's not forget though on many occasions this year there's been nothing between the pair of them and on occasions nico has thrashed him. Maybe nico is just plain and simply quicker Michael may just be making mistakes trying to match him

Edited by spa08, 20 December 2011 - 12:15.


#16232 Szoelloe

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Posted 20 December 2011 - 12:13

I don't believe for one minute that nico sets his car up more for qualifying than Michael. These guys are not stupid and they all know that you get points for the race. Michael for reasons unclear is not able to produce quality qualifying laps, let's not forget though on many occasions this year there's been nothing between the pair of them and on occasions nico has thrashed him. Maybe nico is just pain and simply quicker and Michael is making mistakes trying to match him


I am not denying the possibility.


#16233 merschu

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Posted 20 December 2011 - 13:40

Michael Schumacher in Mercedes GP Xmas party singing bohemiam repsody! :)

http://www.youtube.c...eature=youtu.be

#16234 Fortymark

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Posted 20 December 2011 - 14:20

Michael Schumacher in Mercedes GP Xmas party singing bohemiam repsody! :)

http://www.youtube.c...eature=youtu.be

-Ha ha, good one. :up: :lol:
This one was even funnier with Haug (seems like a party animal) Niro and Ross
http://www.youtube.c...feature=related

#16235 hello86

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Posted 20 December 2011 - 14:22

-Ha ha, good one. :up: :lol:
This one was even funnier with Haug (seems like a party animal) Niro and Ross
http://www.youtube.c...feature=related


:rotfl: Love it :up:

#16236 Szoelloe

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Posted 20 December 2011 - 14:47

-Ha ha, good one. :up: :lol:
This one was even funnier with Haug (seems like a party animal) Niro and Ross
http://www.youtube.c...feature=related


Haug is awesome, the "party animal" description fits him 100%, I witnessed it once first hand, the guy lets loose post season like nobody else. A great chap.


#16237 ivand911

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Posted 20 December 2011 - 16:36

I don't believe for one minute that nico sets his car up more for qualifying than Michael. These guys are not stupid and they all know that you get points for the race. Michael for reasons unclear is not able to produce quality qualifying laps, let's not forget though on many occasions this year there's been nothing between the pair of them and on occasions nico has thrashed him. Maybe nico is just plain and simply quicker Michael may just be making mistakes trying to match him

Where is the part where MS trashed him? Because I remember it happening. In numerous occasions. MS more than Nico.

Clearly MGP party was not for the kids.

Edited by ivand911, 20 December 2011 - 16:42.


#16238 spa08

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Posted 20 December 2011 - 17:01

Where is the part where MS trashed him? Because I remember it happening. In numerous occasions. MS more than Nico.

Clearly MGP party was not for the kids.


What are you talking about?

#16239 cheapracer

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Posted 20 December 2011 - 17:06

I don't believe for one minute that nico sets his car up more for qualifying than Michael. These guys are not stupid and they all know that you get points for the race. Michael for reasons unclear is not able to produce quality qualifying laps, let's not forget though on many occasions this year there's been nothing between the pair of them and on occasions nico has thrashed him. Maybe nico is just plain and simply quicker Michael may just be making mistakes trying to match him


We get it Mate, you don't like Schumacher now disappear to the Rosberg Vs Shumacher thread will ya?


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#16240 ivand911

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Posted 20 December 2011 - 17:09

What are you talking about?

Spa, Canada, India, Monaco? Other races where MS didn't finish. What are you talking about?
Learning about Alonso's divorce make me think how lucky MS is. His family give him a lot of stability. Lucky man ,with right woman.

Edited by ivand911, 20 December 2011 - 17:20.


#16241 Clatter

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Posted 20 December 2011 - 18:00

It suits Rosberg more. The on board cameras show that very well. Every time you ride on board with Michael He is pushing buttons making corrections on the wheel. Never sure what the car is going to do.
You can see where he looses time.


I don't see Rosberg having to do that half as much.


He has always done that, even when the car was a championship winning one.


#16242 Szoelloe

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Posted 20 December 2011 - 20:51

If he means only Qualy he is right. But, in races for me personaly MS was better. So in races Nico beat MS, MS beat Nico and sometimes they were close. For Nico, Abu Dhabi was very good race. MS was better in races like Spa, Canada, India, Monaco, Singapore. Last two DNF of course, but he was fast. Italy was also good race, even when Nico was missing. Can't remember even one "special" race from Nico. But, we have Nico vs MS thread for this.


He meant qualy, Ivan. We were originally talking about one lap speed. And as for racecraft and race pace, MS has shown more of that, sure. That is why I am really hoping that Santa gives us a relatively competitive car at the least, and we are in for a really nice battle next year. :)


#16243 ivand911

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Posted 20 December 2011 - 21:10

I would be happy MS to visit the podium one time next year. To see him jump. But, I don't mind him visiting the podium more times.


#16244 Infinityl

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Posted 20 December 2011 - 21:23

I would be happy MS to visit the podium one time next year. To see him jump. But, I don't mind him visiting the podium more times.


If Mercedes give him a Red Bull for sure he will win races.

Today, Vettel 2011 is not better than Schumacher 2011. Michael hasnt been never fighting in 7th position, with 4 or 5 cars just behind him. He have been driving for 20 years in 1st ~ 3rd position, with greats cars, and this is a lot more easy than driving in the middle.
Vettel have a strong dominant car, for sure he does a great job, but is more easy with a car like that. I remember him fighting in the middle and wasnt great.

#16245 spa08

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Posted 20 December 2011 - 21:24

It'll be very close, either way


I really would like Michael to beat rosberg, I hope they get a car that can compete for podiums and maybe wins. Michael cannot keep relying on his superb starts though, maybe next years car will not be good at starting. Hamilton was always a good starter and for some reason this year it just hasn't happened. If Mercedes produce a good car then I feel Michael has to try and up his consistency in qualifying

#16246 weston

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Posted 20 December 2011 - 21:38

If Mercedes give him a Red Bull for sure he will win races.

Today, Vettel 2011 is not better than Schumacher 2011. Michael hasnt been never fighting in 7th position, with 4 or 5 cars just behind him. He have been driving for 20 years in 1st ~ 3rd position, with greats cars, and this is a lot more easy than driving in the middle.
Vettel have a strong dominant car, for sure he does a great job, but is more easy with a car like that. I remember him fighting in the middle and wasnt great.


This is just your opinion, I guess.

#16247 Scotracer

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Posted 20 December 2011 - 21:40

If Mercedes give him a Red Bull for sure he will win races.

Today, Vettel 2011 is not better than Schumacher 2011. Michael hasnt been never fighting in 7th position, with 4 or 5 cars just behind him. He have been driving for 20 years in 1st ~ 3rd position, with greats cars, and this is a lot more easy than driving in the middle.
Vettel have a strong dominant car, for sure he does a great job, but is more easy with a car like that. I remember him fighting in the middle and wasnt great.


Perhaps in the races, but Vettel has been the king qualifier this year.

#16248 F1Champion

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Posted 20 December 2011 - 21:41

The problem is that the onboard shots of Michael in the car show how differently he is driving from the norm, he looks like any other driver and that is the problem. He can't balance the car on the throttle and brakes and it is really visible, his steering inputs look tight and controlled as well because the front end doesn't look like it grips, you have to be accurate and precise with the entry line and turn in early because you won't get a second chance otherwise. The car doesn't look like its on a knife edge in the fast corners and that was the most visible example of Michael's driving style.

#16249 jj2728

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Posted 20 December 2011 - 21:42

Today, Vettel 2011 is not better than Schumacher 2011. Michael hasnt been never fighting in 7th position, with 4 or 5 cars just behind him. He have been driving for 20 years in 1st ~ 3rd position, with greats cars, and this is a lot more easy than driving in the middle.
Vettel have a strong dominant car, for sure he does a great job, but is more easy with a car like that. I remember him fighting in the middle and wasnt great.


What? Of course it makes life a bit easier when the driver has a great car, but I really would'nt consider the Toro Rosso of 2008 to be a great car yet Vettel won the Italian GP with it. Take a look at his stats from 2008, not too bad for a mid-fielder........

#16250 ivand911

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Posted 20 December 2011 - 22:16

What? Of course it makes life a bit easier when the driver has a great car, but I really would'nt consider the Toro Rosso of 2008 to be a great car yet Vettel won the Italian GP with it. Take a look at his stats from 2008, not too bad for a mid-fielder........

For some reason STR 2008 was very good car for Monza. Maybe second fastest, both car on two first rows. So, there it was great car.