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#16201 Afterburner

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Posted 19 December 2011 - 18:51

Thats unlikely. The EBD simply hasnt worked for him, it would be easy (obviously because most people have not even noticed it) to underestimate the effect this has on his driving. Without it it is very possible there will be some suprises next year.

Personally, I'll believe it when I see it. I'm very optimistic for a change but I'm not looking for excuses (or miracles) right now, lol. It would be nice to be able to put his underperformance thus far down to issues with the car, though we don't have solid evidence for that and Rosberg makes a very convincing case that the car isn't the problem.

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#16202 Schumacher7

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Posted 19 December 2011 - 20:19

Personally, I'll believe it when I see it. I'm very optimistic for a change but I'm not looking for excuses (or miracles) right now, lol. It would be nice to be able to put his underperformance thus far down to issues with the car, though we don't have solid evidence for that and Rosberg makes a very convincing case that the car isn't the problem.

Exactly how I feel, I'm hoping next year he's immediately on it and it was the EBD making the difference but I doubt it was solely that even if it has played a part.

#16203 baddog

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Posted 19 December 2011 - 21:45

Just to be clear, its not an excuse.. its an accusation of a failure on his part to adapt his driving to the cars as they are. Lack of ability to absolutely max out the car when it doesnt suit him in this way is a definite weakness.

#16204 Szoelloe

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Posted 19 December 2011 - 21:56

Just to be clear, its not an excuse.. its an accusation of a failure on his part to adapt his driving to the cars as they are. Lack of ability to absolutely max out the car when it doesnt suit him in this way is a definite weakness.


Well I did not mean it to be an excuse either, explanation - maybe. I think extreme engine mapping has hurt quite a few drivers this year, and the only one who could more or less cope with it was FA, but maybe he does not use that much the throttle for car control, and it suited him, I really cannot decide. About this "driving around a car's flaws" thingy, it's true for some top drivers, but when something affects the part of a given drivers style that enables him to do that, well, that sucks.


#16205 as65p

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Posted 19 December 2011 - 22:05

How though? Don't tell me it's fitness related because I bet he's one of the fittest of drivers and I'm sure he's probably the strongest driver on the grid.


I don't know how exactly, obviously. It's just my impression. Aside from the, let's says, strange mechanical mishaps that always seems to befall his car in qualifying, he visibly makes a lot of driving mistakes on his qualy laps. More than Rosberg certainly, possibly more than all other top drivers, far more than he makes in the races. I known the theory of his driving style not suitable to this generation of cars (EBD), but I'm not convinced at all that's the reason. Guess we should find out in 2011.

As to fitness, it always beats me how people think they can decide that by looks. Not saying he ain't fit enough, just that we have no way of knowing, one way or the other. It's a trivial truth that looks can be soooo deceiving. A favourite example of mine (in the opposite direction) is Montoya during his spell in F1. His chunky frame always provoked jokes about lack of fitness, yet I can't remember a single race where he appeared overly exhausted at the finish, quite the contrary in fact.

#16206 Szoelloe

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Posted 19 December 2011 - 22:11

I don't know how exactly, obviously. It's just my impression. Aside from the, let's says, strange mechanical mishaps that always seems to befall his car in qualifying, he visibly makes a lot of driving mistakes on his qualy laps. More than Rosberg certainly, possibly more than all other top drivers, far more than he makes in the races. I known the theory of his driving style not suitable to this generation of cars (EBD), but I'm not convinced at all that's the reason. Guess we should find out in 2011.

As to fitness, it always beats me how people think they can decide that by looks. Not saying he ain't fit enough, just that we have no way of knowing, one way or the other. It's a trivial truth that looks can be soooo deceiving. A favourite example of mine (in the opposite direction) is Montoya during his spell in F1. His chunky frame always provoked jokes about lack of fitness, yet I can't remember a single race where he appeared overly exhausted at the finish, quite the contrary in fact.


I would say high, very high fitness level is nowadays a standard among most drivers. Thus, it gives no edge any more over each other.


#16207 as65p

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Posted 19 December 2011 - 22:18

I would say high, very high fitness level is nowadays a standard among most drivers. Thus, it gives no edge any more over each other.


Agreed. No ciggies on the podium anymore.... :cry:  ;) . They all ought to be fit enough. And anyway, we're talking single lap speed where it count's the least, relatively. I don't think at all MS qualifying troubles have to do with body fitness, the indications for that would come in the last stints of the races, and evidently he has no problems there.

#16208 spa08

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Posted 20 December 2011 - 00:31

Agreed. No ciggies on the podium anymore.... :cry: ;) . They all ought to be fit enough. And anyway, we're talking single lap speed where it count's the least, relatively. I don't think at all MS qualifying troubles have to do with body fitness, the indications for that would come in the last stints of the races, and evidently he has no problems there.


It could just be a case of pressure and overdriving, getting that perfect lap in so little time is crucial. Mess up and everything escalates and the situation gets worse. Though I think it happens too often to be that reason

#16209 Callisto

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Posted 20 December 2011 - 02:32

Cool plane :up:

#16210 ivand911

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Posted 20 December 2011 - 08:23

But, you have to agree that many time this year, plan was not even to fight Nico for forward place? To save precious tyres. I am not sure if they were fighting for podiums every race MS will behave like this. Because they fight for 7th usually it was good to use this strategy. Michael even "tragic" in the Q , almost beat Nico. In how many Qualy they really fight? 4-5? From 19? We will see this year I guess.
Can they come with different set up for the race from the simulator? Michael use simulator, make his car, then Nico use the simulator ,make his car. So ,they can come on the track with different cars and strategy. From Racer article they come on the track with set up 90% ready. But, what this mean, how different are their cars?
http://www.racer.com...article/219407/

Edited by ivand911, 20 December 2011 - 08:27.


#16211 Szoelloe

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Posted 20 December 2011 - 11:18

But, you have to agree that many time this year, plan was not even to fight Nico for forward place? To save precious tyres. I am not sure if they were fighting for podiums every race MS will behave like this. Because they fight for 7th usually it was good to use this strategy. Michael even "tragic" in the Q , almost beat Nico. In how many Qualy they really fight? 4-5? From 19? We will see this year I guess.
Can they come with different set up for the race from the simulator? Michael use simulator, make his car, then Nico use the simulator ,make his car. So ,they can come on the track with different cars and strategy. From Racer article they come on the track with set up 90% ready. But, what this mean, how different are their cars?
http://www.racer.com...article/219407/


"B" plan, maybe. But still, MS was never too concerned with slotting in behind NR, and said so several times. I don't think it was the plan, to me it seemed more like he knew and accepted that he is slower on one lap currently. As Spa08 said, on his hot laps it could be seen that he tried what he could, over driving the car several times, and made mistakes. If you looked at onboard NR in qualys, he was much smoother during cornering fully exploiting the EBD engine mapping, whereas MS could not seem to get on top of his braking/accelerating points, which practically frekked his times. I was always surprised to see this, and unfortunately it was a major part of his natural speed, I think, his exit speed was always awesome, and now its not there. If this is cause by inabality to get on top of the EBD engine mapping, than we could see him getting better on one lap next season. If not, than I accept he lost some of his speed. But I still think it is the former.

edit: I don't think this can be answered with setup differences, and they said several times that they perfer similar things from the car.

Edited by Szoelloe, 20 December 2011 - 11:21.


#16212 spa08

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Posted 20 December 2011 - 12:08

I don't believe for one minute that nico sets his car up more for qualifying than Michael. These guys are not stupid and they all know that you get points for the race. Michael for reasons unclear is not able to produce quality qualifying laps, let's not forget though on many occasions this year there's been nothing between the pair of them and on occasions nico has thrashed him. Maybe nico is just plain and simply quicker Michael may just be making mistakes trying to match him

Edited by spa08, 20 December 2011 - 12:15.


#16213 Szoelloe

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Posted 20 December 2011 - 12:13

I don't believe for one minute that nico sets his car up more for qualifying than Michael. These guys are not stupid and they all know that you get points for the race. Michael for reasons unclear is not able to produce quality qualifying laps, let's not forget though on many occasions this year there's been nothing between the pair of them and on occasions nico has thrashed him. Maybe nico is just pain and simply quicker and Michael is making mistakes trying to match him


I am not denying the possibility.


#16214 merschu

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Posted 20 December 2011 - 13:40

Michael Schumacher in Mercedes GP Xmas party singing bohemiam repsody! :)

http://www.youtube.c...eature=youtu.be

#16215 Fortymark

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Posted 20 December 2011 - 14:20

Michael Schumacher in Mercedes GP Xmas party singing bohemiam repsody! :)

http://www.youtube.c...eature=youtu.be

-Ha ha, good one. :up: :lol:
This one was even funnier with Haug (seems like a party animal) Niro and Ross
http://www.youtube.c...feature=related

#16216 hello86

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Posted 20 December 2011 - 14:22

-Ha ha, good one. :up: :lol:
This one was even funnier with Haug (seems like a party animal) Niro and Ross
http://www.youtube.c...feature=related


:rotfl: Love it :up:

#16217 Szoelloe

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Posted 20 December 2011 - 14:47

-Ha ha, good one. :up: :lol:
This one was even funnier with Haug (seems like a party animal) Niro and Ross
http://www.youtube.c...feature=related


Haug is awesome, the "party animal" description fits him 100%, I witnessed it once first hand, the guy lets loose post season like nobody else. A great chap.


#16218 ivand911

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Posted 20 December 2011 - 16:36

I don't believe for one minute that nico sets his car up more for qualifying than Michael. These guys are not stupid and they all know that you get points for the race. Michael for reasons unclear is not able to produce quality qualifying laps, let's not forget though on many occasions this year there's been nothing between the pair of them and on occasions nico has thrashed him. Maybe nico is just plain and simply quicker Michael may just be making mistakes trying to match him

Where is the part where MS trashed him? Because I remember it happening. In numerous occasions. MS more than Nico.

Clearly MGP party was not for the kids.

Edited by ivand911, 20 December 2011 - 16:42.


#16219 spa08

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Posted 20 December 2011 - 17:01

Where is the part where MS trashed him? Because I remember it happening. In numerous occasions. MS more than Nico.

Clearly MGP party was not for the kids.


What are you talking about?

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#16220 cheapracer

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Posted 20 December 2011 - 17:06

I don't believe for one minute that nico sets his car up more for qualifying than Michael. These guys are not stupid and they all know that you get points for the race. Michael for reasons unclear is not able to produce quality qualifying laps, let's not forget though on many occasions this year there's been nothing between the pair of them and on occasions nico has thrashed him. Maybe nico is just plain and simply quicker Michael may just be making mistakes trying to match him


We get it Mate, you don't like Schumacher now disappear to the Rosberg Vs Shumacher thread will ya?


#16221 ivand911

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Posted 20 December 2011 - 17:09

What are you talking about?

Spa, Canada, India, Monaco? Other races where MS didn't finish. What are you talking about?
Learning about Alonso's divorce make me think how lucky MS is. His family give him a lot of stability. Lucky man ,with right woman.

Edited by ivand911, 20 December 2011 - 17:20.


#16222 Clatter

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Posted 20 December 2011 - 18:00

It suits Rosberg more. The on board cameras show that very well. Every time you ride on board with Michael He is pushing buttons making corrections on the wheel. Never sure what the car is going to do.
You can see where he looses time.


I don't see Rosberg having to do that half as much.


He has always done that, even when the car was a championship winning one.


#16223 Szoelloe

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Posted 20 December 2011 - 20:51

If he means only Qualy he is right. But, in races for me personaly MS was better. So in races Nico beat MS, MS beat Nico and sometimes they were close. For Nico, Abu Dhabi was very good race. MS was better in races like Spa, Canada, India, Monaco, Singapore. Last two DNF of course, but he was fast. Italy was also good race, even when Nico was missing. Can't remember even one "special" race from Nico. But, we have Nico vs MS thread for this.


He meant qualy, Ivan. We were originally talking about one lap speed. And as for racecraft and race pace, MS has shown more of that, sure. That is why I am really hoping that Santa gives us a relatively competitive car at the least, and we are in for a really nice battle next year. :)


#16224 ivand911

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Posted 20 December 2011 - 21:10

I would be happy MS to visit the podium one time next year. To see him jump. But, I don't mind him visiting the podium more times.


#16225 Infinityl

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Posted 20 December 2011 - 21:23

I would be happy MS to visit the podium one time next year. To see him jump. But, I don't mind him visiting the podium more times.


If Mercedes give him a Red Bull for sure he will win races.

Today, Vettel 2011 is not better than Schumacher 2011. Michael hasnt been never fighting in 7th position, with 4 or 5 cars just behind him. He have been driving for 20 years in 1st ~ 3rd position, with greats cars, and this is a lot more easy than driving in the middle.
Vettel have a strong dominant car, for sure he does a great job, but is more easy with a car like that. I remember him fighting in the middle and wasnt great.

#16226 spa08

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Posted 20 December 2011 - 21:24

It'll be very close, either way


I really would like Michael to beat rosberg, I hope they get a car that can compete for podiums and maybe wins. Michael cannot keep relying on his superb starts though, maybe next years car will not be good at starting. Hamilton was always a good starter and for some reason this year it just hasn't happened. If Mercedes produce a good car then I feel Michael has to try and up his consistency in qualifying

#16227 weston

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Posted 20 December 2011 - 21:38

If Mercedes give him a Red Bull for sure he will win races.

Today, Vettel 2011 is not better than Schumacher 2011. Michael hasnt been never fighting in 7th position, with 4 or 5 cars just behind him. He have been driving for 20 years in 1st ~ 3rd position, with greats cars, and this is a lot more easy than driving in the middle.
Vettel have a strong dominant car, for sure he does a great job, but is more easy with a car like that. I remember him fighting in the middle and wasnt great.


This is just your opinion, I guess.

#16228 Scotracer

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Posted 20 December 2011 - 21:40

If Mercedes give him a Red Bull for sure he will win races.

Today, Vettel 2011 is not better than Schumacher 2011. Michael hasnt been never fighting in 7th position, with 4 or 5 cars just behind him. He have been driving for 20 years in 1st ~ 3rd position, with greats cars, and this is a lot more easy than driving in the middle.
Vettel have a strong dominant car, for sure he does a great job, but is more easy with a car like that. I remember him fighting in the middle and wasnt great.


Perhaps in the races, but Vettel has been the king qualifier this year.

#16229 F1Champion

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Posted 20 December 2011 - 21:41

The problem is that the onboard shots of Michael in the car show how differently he is driving from the norm, he looks like any other driver and that is the problem. He can't balance the car on the throttle and brakes and it is really visible, his steering inputs look tight and controlled as well because the front end doesn't look like it grips, you have to be accurate and precise with the entry line and turn in early because you won't get a second chance otherwise. The car doesn't look like its on a knife edge in the fast corners and that was the most visible example of Michael's driving style.

#16230 jj2728

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Posted 20 December 2011 - 21:42

Today, Vettel 2011 is not better than Schumacher 2011. Michael hasnt been never fighting in 7th position, with 4 or 5 cars just behind him. He have been driving for 20 years in 1st ~ 3rd position, with greats cars, and this is a lot more easy than driving in the middle.
Vettel have a strong dominant car, for sure he does a great job, but is more easy with a car like that. I remember him fighting in the middle and wasnt great.


What? Of course it makes life a bit easier when the driver has a great car, but I really would'nt consider the Toro Rosso of 2008 to be a great car yet Vettel won the Italian GP with it. Take a look at his stats from 2008, not too bad for a mid-fielder........

#16231 ivand911

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Posted 20 December 2011 - 22:16

What? Of course it makes life a bit easier when the driver has a great car, but I really would'nt consider the Toro Rosso of 2008 to be a great car yet Vettel won the Italian GP with it. Take a look at his stats from 2008, not too bad for a mid-fielder........

For some reason STR 2008 was very good car for Monza. Maybe second fastest, both car on two first rows. So, there it was great car.


#16232 mkoscevic

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Posted 20 December 2011 - 22:46

Schumacher did a fine season considering everything. Best thing about him is that he hasn't changed at all on track while fighting with guys, that's perhaps even more important then pure speed. :D

Hard to believe that already two years passed since he announced his F1 comeback with Mercedes around Christmas 2009 heh.

#16233 jj2728

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Posted 20 December 2011 - 22:48

For some reason STR 2008 was very good car for Monza. Maybe second fastest, both car on two first rows. So, there it was great car.


No it was not. It was at best in 2008 a mid-field car. If anything Vettel made the difference, he accounted for 35 of the team's 39 points that year. And the conditions at Monza were wet in practice, qualifying and the race.

#16234 Konsta

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Posted 21 December 2011 - 06:37

Schumacher did a fine season considering everything. Best thing about him is that he hasn't changed at all on track while fighting with guys, that's perhaps even more important then pure speed. :D

Hard to believe that already two years passed since he announced his F1 comeback with Mercedes around Christmas 2009 heh.


IMO something about MS has definitely changed. He still has glimpses of that old magic (and ruthlessness) but he seems to be making awfully lot of rookiesque mistakes as well.
Is it because after Jordan he never really had to struggle with the middle-pack or is it just slower reactions or...?

#16235 FigJam

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Posted 21 December 2011 - 06:41

The problem is that the onboard shots of Michael in the car show how differently he is driving from the norm, he looks like any other driver and that is the problem. He can't balance the car on the throttle and brakes and it is really visible, his steering inputs look tight and controlled as well because the front end doesn't look like it grips, you have to be accurate and precise with the entry line and turn in early because you won't get a second chance otherwise. The car doesn't look like its on a knife edge in the fast corners and that was the most visible example of Michael's driving style.


This.

#16236 PoliFanAthic

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Posted 21 December 2011 - 10:14

No it was not. It was at best in 2008 a mid-field car. If anything Vettel made the difference, he accounted for 35 of the team's 39 points that year. And the conditions at Monza were wet in practice, qualifying and the race.


What do you mean it was not? At Monza it was top notch, which is why Bourdais also qualified 4th. Before that, Bourdais hadn't qualified higher than 9th and Vettel higher than 6th. STR became a top midfield car towards the end of the season, mainly thanks to Vettel, as you pointed out. Nonetheless, I'd still say that their package was strongest at Monza, stronger than anywhere else.

Edited by PoliFanAthic, 21 December 2011 - 10:17.


#16237 jj2728

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Posted 21 December 2011 - 10:36

What do you mean it was not? At Monza it was top notch, which is why Bourdais also qualified 4th. Before that, Bourdais hadn't qualified higher than 9th and Vettel higher than 6th. STR became a top midfield car towards the end of the season, mainly thanks to Vettel, as you pointed out. Nonetheless, I'd still say that their package was strongest at Monza, stronger than anywhere else.


Read the race report, the weather conditions at Monza played very well into STR's hands that weekend and additionally I never realized that there was now a TOP midfield car, does that mean there is also MID mid field car and a BOTTOM mid-field car?

#16238 ivand911

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Posted 21 December 2011 - 10:44

Read the race report, the weather conditions at Monza played very well into STR's hands that weekend and additionally I never realized that there was now a TOP midfield car, does that mean there is also MID mid field car and a BOTTOM mid-field car?

You mean that he would have won it in BMW, Renault , RBR car?


#16239 spa08

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Posted 21 December 2011 - 10:46

IMO something about MS has definitely changed. He still has glimpses of that old magic (and ruthlessness) but he seems to be making awfully lot of rookiesque mistakes as well.
Is it because after Jordan he never really had to struggle with the middle-pack or is it just slower reactions or...?


Michael was well known for being scrappy in mid-pack battles. Watch some of his early footage in the bennetton and you'll see what I mean.

Edited by spa08, 21 December 2011 - 10:47.


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#16240 ivand911

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Posted 21 December 2011 - 10:51

Michael was well known for being scrappy in mid-pack battles. Watch some of his early footage in the bennetton and you'll see what I mean.

Anyone good in mid-pack battles? :wave:


#16241 spa08

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Posted 21 December 2011 - 11:00

Anyone good in mid-pack battles? :wave:


You are boring! Seeing as though most of the time he was the one doing the attacking he's the one to blame for the incidents. Am I lying about these scrappy incidents earlier in his career? Like I said, when your a racer mistakes and errors are bound to happen, Michael was pretty bad at outbraking himself and smashing into the guy in front

#16242 Hacklerf

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Posted 21 December 2011 - 12:00

Schumacher did a fine season considering everything. Best thing about him is that he hasn't changed at all on track while fighting with guys, that's perhaps even more important then pure speed. :D

Hard to believe that already two years passed since he announced his F1 comeback with Mercedes around Christmas 2009 heh.


Indeed, i hope this isn't Schumi's last year, i remember when i first heard the news of his comeback, it was electrifying

#16243 ivand911

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Posted 21 December 2011 - 12:14

You are boring! Seeing as though most of the time he was the one doing the attacking he's the one to blame for the incidents. Am I lying about these scrappy incidents earlier in his career? Like I said, when your a racer mistakes and errors are bound to happen, Michael was pretty bad at outbraking himself and smashing into the guy in front

First, you hurt my feelings. :rotfl:
Second, I can forgive him everything from his young days for 7 titles. Like he is the only one making mistakes in F1?


#16244 tkulla

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Posted 21 December 2011 - 12:28

The problem is that the onboard shots of Michael in the car show how differently he is driving from the norm, he looks like any other driver and that is the problem. He can't balance the car on the throttle and brakes and it is really visible, his steering inputs look tight and controlled as well because the front end doesn't look like it grips, you have to be accurate and precise with the entry line and turn in early because you won't get a second chance otherwise. The car doesn't look like its on a knife edge in the fast corners and that was the most visible example of Michael's driving style.


Yes, and the real question is why? Is his age preventing him from performing that balancing act? is the car's setup window not wide enough to allow that style to work? Is the lack of testing preventing the fine tuning required to make it work?

We should find out in 2012. Without it he's an ordinary F1 driver - one who is quick in the wet but a bit clumsy in traffic. Not a great qualifier but consistent in the races. We all would like to see more than that this year. It's going to be epic with all those WDCs, and I want the "real" Michael joining that mix.

#16245 ivand911

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Posted 21 December 2011 - 12:42

We all would like to see more than that this year. It's going to be epic with all those WDCs, and I want the "real" Michael joining that mix.

It will be better if all those WDC's were driving RBR ,McLaren and Ferrari next year. Now , I fear two of them will be left outside.


#16246 valachus

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Posted 21 December 2011 - 13:13

Yes, and the real question is why? Is his age preventing him from performing that balancing act? is the car's setup window not wide enough to allow that style to work? Is the lack of testing preventing the fine tuning required to make it work?


It was the EBD. Listen to this and it's easy to understand. Basically, in slow corners the engine appeared to have been run by the ECU and not by the driver. I'm not surprised in the least that it just so happened that the FOM TV feed did not catch this very specific fart-like sound.

#16247 PoliFanAthic

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Posted 21 December 2011 - 13:33

Read the race report, the weather conditions at Monza played very well into STR's hands that weekend and additionally I never realized that there was now a TOP midfield car, does that mean there is also MID mid field car and a BOTTOM mid-field car?


Anyway, returning somewhat on topic, I think it was quite obvious this year that there are top-mid-bottom midfield teams.

Top midfield: MGP
Mid midfield: Lotus, Force India
Bottom midfield: Sauber, Toro Rosso

No? :D

#16248 schubacca

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Posted 21 December 2011 - 16:12

I put MS's race pace up with anyone on the grid in 2011....

His qualifying pace on the other hand is not good.

If he can improve in this regard, he should continue in F1 past his current contract.

#16249 prty

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Posted 21 December 2011 - 19:54

http://www.marca.com...mp;t=1324497117

:lol:

#16250 F1Champion

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Posted 21 December 2011 - 19:57

Yes, and the real question is why? Is his age preventing him from performing that balancing act? is the car's setup window not wide enough to allow that style to work? Is the lack of testing preventing the fine tuning required to make it work?

We should find out in 2012. Without it he's an ordinary F1 driver - one who is quick in the wet but a bit clumsy in traffic. Not a great qualifier but consistent in the races. We all would like to see more than that this year. It's going to be epic with all those WDCs, and I want the "real" Michael joining that mix.


As mentioned by others it is the EBD and the car characteristics. The throttle or exhaust blowing must remain open on corner entry, it is the quickest way around a track as it generates downforce on entry. It completely negates the advantage that Michael has over many drivers on corner entry and exit. You can't balance the car on entry because that will alter the optimum blowing under braking as I understand. So Michael only has one option and that is to maximise corner exit and you can see this on the onboard shots, especially at Abu Dhabi, it requires being accurate on entry and a slower entry speed to maximise a better corner exit. The front end isn't strong either as seen by the understeer visible on the onboards that Brundle and Coulthard commented on so corner entry speed has to be reduced for the optimum line. Overall Michael's style has gone more to corner exit speed in 2011.

The tyre characteristics don't help much either as you can't be aggressive on corner entry as that takes too much life out of the tyres, as seen by Hamilton, which again doesn't help Michael much. The steering inputs have to be small on entry and effectively done by corner exit.