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Michael Schumacher (merged)


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#16251 mkoscevic

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Posted 20 December 2011 - 22:46

Schumacher did a fine season considering everything. Best thing about him is that he hasn't changed at all on track while fighting with guys, that's perhaps even more important then pure speed. :D

Hard to believe that already two years passed since he announced his F1 comeback with Mercedes around Christmas 2009 heh.

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#16252 jj2728

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Posted 20 December 2011 - 22:48

For some reason STR 2008 was very good car for Monza. Maybe second fastest, both car on two first rows. So, there it was great car.


No it was not. It was at best in 2008 a mid-field car. If anything Vettel made the difference, he accounted for 35 of the team's 39 points that year. And the conditions at Monza were wet in practice, qualifying and the race.

#16253 Konsta

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Posted 21 December 2011 - 06:37

Schumacher did a fine season considering everything. Best thing about him is that he hasn't changed at all on track while fighting with guys, that's perhaps even more important then pure speed. :D

Hard to believe that already two years passed since he announced his F1 comeback with Mercedes around Christmas 2009 heh.


IMO something about MS has definitely changed. He still has glimpses of that old magic (and ruthlessness) but he seems to be making awfully lot of rookiesque mistakes as well.
Is it because after Jordan he never really had to struggle with the middle-pack or is it just slower reactions or...?

#16254 FigJam

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Posted 21 December 2011 - 06:41

The problem is that the onboard shots of Michael in the car show how differently he is driving from the norm, he looks like any other driver and that is the problem. He can't balance the car on the throttle and brakes and it is really visible, his steering inputs look tight and controlled as well because the front end doesn't look like it grips, you have to be accurate and precise with the entry line and turn in early because you won't get a second chance otherwise. The car doesn't look like its on a knife edge in the fast corners and that was the most visible example of Michael's driving style.


This.

#16255 PoliFanAthic

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Posted 21 December 2011 - 10:14

No it was not. It was at best in 2008 a mid-field car. If anything Vettel made the difference, he accounted for 35 of the team's 39 points that year. And the conditions at Monza were wet in practice, qualifying and the race.


What do you mean it was not? At Monza it was top notch, which is why Bourdais also qualified 4th. Before that, Bourdais hadn't qualified higher than 9th and Vettel higher than 6th. STR became a top midfield car towards the end of the season, mainly thanks to Vettel, as you pointed out. Nonetheless, I'd still say that their package was strongest at Monza, stronger than anywhere else.

Edited by PoliFanAthic, 21 December 2011 - 10:17.


#16256 jj2728

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Posted 21 December 2011 - 10:36

What do you mean it was not? At Monza it was top notch, which is why Bourdais also qualified 4th. Before that, Bourdais hadn't qualified higher than 9th and Vettel higher than 6th. STR became a top midfield car towards the end of the season, mainly thanks to Vettel, as you pointed out. Nonetheless, I'd still say that their package was strongest at Monza, stronger than anywhere else.


Read the race report, the weather conditions at Monza played very well into STR's hands that weekend and additionally I never realized that there was now a TOP midfield car, does that mean there is also MID mid field car and a BOTTOM mid-field car?

#16257 ivand911

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Posted 21 December 2011 - 10:44

Read the race report, the weather conditions at Monza played very well into STR's hands that weekend and additionally I never realized that there was now a TOP midfield car, does that mean there is also MID mid field car and a BOTTOM mid-field car?

You mean that he would have won it in BMW, Renault , RBR car?


#16258 spa08

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Posted 21 December 2011 - 10:46

IMO something about MS has definitely changed. He still has glimpses of that old magic (and ruthlessness) but he seems to be making awfully lot of rookiesque mistakes as well.
Is it because after Jordan he never really had to struggle with the middle-pack or is it just slower reactions or...?


Michael was well known for being scrappy in mid-pack battles. Watch some of his early footage in the bennetton and you'll see what I mean.

Edited by spa08, 21 December 2011 - 10:47.


#16259 ivand911

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Posted 21 December 2011 - 10:51

Michael was well known for being scrappy in mid-pack battles. Watch some of his early footage in the bennetton and you'll see what I mean.

Anyone good in mid-pack battles? :wave:


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#16260 spa08

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Posted 21 December 2011 - 11:00

Anyone good in mid-pack battles? :wave:


You are boring! Seeing as though most of the time he was the one doing the attacking he's the one to blame for the incidents. Am I lying about these scrappy incidents earlier in his career? Like I said, when your a racer mistakes and errors are bound to happen, Michael was pretty bad at outbraking himself and smashing into the guy in front

#16261 Hacklerf

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Posted 21 December 2011 - 12:00

Schumacher did a fine season considering everything. Best thing about him is that he hasn't changed at all on track while fighting with guys, that's perhaps even more important then pure speed. :D

Hard to believe that already two years passed since he announced his F1 comeback with Mercedes around Christmas 2009 heh.


Indeed, i hope this isn't Schumi's last year, i remember when i first heard the news of his comeback, it was electrifying

#16262 ivand911

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Posted 21 December 2011 - 12:14

You are boring! Seeing as though most of the time he was the one doing the attacking he's the one to blame for the incidents. Am I lying about these scrappy incidents earlier in his career? Like I said, when your a racer mistakes and errors are bound to happen, Michael was pretty bad at outbraking himself and smashing into the guy in front

First, you hurt my feelings. :rotfl:
Second, I can forgive him everything from his young days for 7 titles. Like he is the only one making mistakes in F1?


#16263 tkulla

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Posted 21 December 2011 - 12:28

The problem is that the onboard shots of Michael in the car show how differently he is driving from the norm, he looks like any other driver and that is the problem. He can't balance the car on the throttle and brakes and it is really visible, his steering inputs look tight and controlled as well because the front end doesn't look like it grips, you have to be accurate and precise with the entry line and turn in early because you won't get a second chance otherwise. The car doesn't look like its on a knife edge in the fast corners and that was the most visible example of Michael's driving style.


Yes, and the real question is why? Is his age preventing him from performing that balancing act? is the car's setup window not wide enough to allow that style to work? Is the lack of testing preventing the fine tuning required to make it work?

We should find out in 2012. Without it he's an ordinary F1 driver - one who is quick in the wet but a bit clumsy in traffic. Not a great qualifier but consistent in the races. We all would like to see more than that this year. It's going to be epic with all those WDCs, and I want the "real" Michael joining that mix.

#16264 ivand911

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Posted 21 December 2011 - 12:42

We all would like to see more than that this year. It's going to be epic with all those WDCs, and I want the "real" Michael joining that mix.

It will be better if all those WDC's were driving RBR ,McLaren and Ferrari next year. Now , I fear two of them will be left outside.


#16265 valachus

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Posted 21 December 2011 - 13:13

Yes, and the real question is why? Is his age preventing him from performing that balancing act? is the car's setup window not wide enough to allow that style to work? Is the lack of testing preventing the fine tuning required to make it work?


It was the EBD. Listen to this and it's easy to understand. Basically, in slow corners the engine appeared to have been run by the ECU and not by the driver. I'm not surprised in the least that it just so happened that the FOM TV feed did not catch this very specific fart-like sound.

#16266 PoliFanAthic

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Posted 21 December 2011 - 13:33

Read the race report, the weather conditions at Monza played very well into STR's hands that weekend and additionally I never realized that there was now a TOP midfield car, does that mean there is also MID mid field car and a BOTTOM mid-field car?


Anyway, returning somewhat on topic, I think it was quite obvious this year that there are top-mid-bottom midfield teams.

Top midfield: MGP
Mid midfield: Lotus, Force India
Bottom midfield: Sauber, Toro Rosso

No? :D

#16267 schubacca

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Posted 21 December 2011 - 16:12

I put MS's race pace up with anyone on the grid in 2011....

His qualifying pace on the other hand is not good.

If he can improve in this regard, he should continue in F1 past his current contract.

#16268 prty

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Posted 21 December 2011 - 19:54

http://www.marca.com...mp;t=1324497117

:lol:

#16269 F1Champion

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Posted 21 December 2011 - 19:57

Yes, and the real question is why? Is his age preventing him from performing that balancing act? is the car's setup window not wide enough to allow that style to work? Is the lack of testing preventing the fine tuning required to make it work?

We should find out in 2012. Without it he's an ordinary F1 driver - one who is quick in the wet but a bit clumsy in traffic. Not a great qualifier but consistent in the races. We all would like to see more than that this year. It's going to be epic with all those WDCs, and I want the "real" Michael joining that mix.


As mentioned by others it is the EBD and the car characteristics. The throttle or exhaust blowing must remain open on corner entry, it is the quickest way around a track as it generates downforce on entry. It completely negates the advantage that Michael has over many drivers on corner entry and exit. You can't balance the car on entry because that will alter the optimum blowing under braking as I understand. So Michael only has one option and that is to maximise corner exit and you can see this on the onboard shots, especially at Abu Dhabi, it requires being accurate on entry and a slower entry speed to maximise a better corner exit. The front end isn't strong either as seen by the understeer visible on the onboards that Brundle and Coulthard commented on so corner entry speed has to be reduced for the optimum line. Overall Michael's style has gone more to corner exit speed in 2011.

The tyre characteristics don't help much either as you can't be aggressive on corner entry as that takes too much life out of the tyres, as seen by Hamilton, which again doesn't help Michael much. The steering inputs have to be small on entry and effectively done by corner exit.

#16270 Kubiccia

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Posted 21 December 2011 - 20:34

http://www.marca.com...mp;t=1324497117

:lol:

Marca deserves a sue! THis video doesn't belong to them, it was originally posted on youtube and the person who captured with her cell phone also posted Norbert Haug's, Ross Brawn's and Rosberg's singing.

#16271 spa08

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Posted 21 December 2011 - 20:38

As mentioned by others it is the EBD and the car characteristics. The throttle or exhaust blowing must remain open on corner entry, it is the quickest way around a track as it generates downforce on entry. It completely negates the advantage that Michael has over many drivers on corner entry and exit. You can't balance the car on entry because that will alter the optimum blowing under braking as I understand. So Michael only has one option and that is to maximise corner exit and you can see this on the onboard shots, especially at Abu Dhabi, it requires being accurate on entry and a slower entry speed to maximise a better corner exit. The front end isn't strong either as seen by the understeer visible on the onboards that Brundle and Coulthard commented on so corner entry speed has to be reduced for the optimum line. Overall Michael's style has gone more to corner exit speed in 2011.

The tyre characteristics don't help much either as you can't be aggressive on corner entry as that takes too much life out of the tyres, as seen by Hamilton, which again doesn't help Michael much. The steering inputs have to be small on entry and effectively done by corner exit.


If what you say is true then we should see a much more competitive Michael next year

#16272 jj2728

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Posted 21 December 2011 - 22:01

You mean that he would have won it in BMW, Renault , RBR car?


And why not? There is no proof that he could have so there is NO answer to your question. Maybe he could have won and maybe not, but he did win with a midfield car.

#16273 jj2728

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Posted 21 December 2011 - 22:03

Anyway, returning somewhat on topic, I think it was quite obvious this year that there are top-mid-bottom midfield teams.

Top midfield: MGP
Mid midfield: Lotus, Force India
Bottom midfield: Sauber, Toro Rosso

No? :D


No

#16274 Tarzaan

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Posted 24 December 2011 - 09:26

Merry Christmas!/Boldog Karácsonyt Mindenkinek!/Frohe Weihnachten!

Posted Image

:clap:

Edited by Tarzaan, 24 December 2011 - 09:26.


#16275 cheapracer

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Posted 24 December 2011 - 09:38

No it was not. It was at best in 2008 a mid-field car. If anything Vettel made the difference, he accounted for 35 of the team's 39 points that year. And the conditions at Monza were wet in practice, qualifying and the race.


So what, Monza is the least reliant on a driver or a car's cornering capability of any track, yet STR were 1st and 4th on the grid - Ferrari power and low drag/downforce.

Ironically Schumacher was also able to have one of his best runs at Monza as well so if you hold Vettle on a pedestal for his 2008 Monza performance then it goes without saying that you must hold Schumacher in similar high standing - logic dictates.

Oh and like the Rosberg Vs Schumacher thread, there is a Vettle thread - it would be courteous of you Guys to apply your posts to the correct threads.

If what you say is true then we should see a much more competitive Michael next year


...along with a quieter Schumacher thread.

Edited by cheapracer, 24 December 2011 - 09:42.


#16276 spa08

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Posted 24 December 2011 - 10:45

So what, Monza is the least reliant on a driver or a car's cornering capability of any track, yet STR were 1st and 4th on the grid - Ferrari power and low drag/downforce.

Ironically Schumacher was also able to have one of his best runs at Monza as well so if you hold Vettle on a pedestal for his 2008 Monza performance then it goes without saying that you must hold Schumacher in similar high standing - logic dictates.

Oh and like the Rosberg Vs Schumacher thread, there is a Vettle thread - it would be courteous of you Guys to apply your posts to the correct threads.



...along with a quieter Schumacher thread.


If Schumacher does beat rosberg I doubt the thread will be any quieter

#16277 ivand911

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Posted 24 December 2011 - 10:55

If Schumacher does beat rosberg I doubt the thread will be any quieter

It will be, some people will be missing.


#16278 spa08

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Posted 24 December 2011 - 11:05

It will be, some people will be missing.


I doubt you will be

#16279 Sakae

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Posted 24 December 2011 - 11:37

Merry Christmas and peace to you Michael, your Family, and also to your friends, including all fans who remain with you all those years.

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#16280 steveninthematrix

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Posted 24 December 2011 - 11:50

the tallest tree catches the most wind....









...and that tree in F1 is named Mr Schumacher

#16281 jj2728

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Posted 24 December 2011 - 12:52

So what, Monza is the least reliant on a driver or a car's cornering capability of any track, yet STR were 1st and 4th on the grid - Ferrari power and low drag/downforce.

Ironically Schumacher was also able to have one of his best runs at Monza as well so if you hold Vettle on a pedestal for his 2008 Monza performance then it goes without saying that you must hold Schumacher in similar high standing - logic dictates.
.


Logic dictates nothing as I am not putting Vettel on a pedestal nor comparing him to Schumacher, read my prior posts. The Italian GP weekend that year was wet throughout so the Ferrari power/downforce didn't really come into play. I was making an earlier point about the STR being a mid-field car and nothing more.

#16282 MikeTekRacing

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Posted 24 December 2011 - 13:21

Logic dictates nothing as I am not putting Vettel on a pedestal nor comparing him to Schumacher, read my prior posts. The Italian GP weekend that year was wet throughout so the Ferrari power/downforce didn't really come into play. I was making an earlier point about the STR being a mid-field car and nothing more.

So Bourdais was also great to be 4th in STR

Interesting coincidence...

#16283 jj2728

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Posted 24 December 2011 - 16:07

So Bourdais was also great to be 4th in STR

Interesting coincidence...


Yes he was. Hey, STR had it figured out that weekend whilst the others didn't. So why couldn't Bourdais have shone on that one weekend? Read very carefully what I have been saying, that the STR was a midfield car, that on one particular weekend, with a bit of help from the weather, things were pretty much dialed in for them.

#16284 sharo

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Posted 25 December 2011 - 11:14

the tallest tree catches the most wind....



...and that tree in F1 is named Mr Schumacher

:up:
Many people fail to grasp the idea though.

Edited by sharo, 25 December 2011 - 11:14.


#16285 cheapracer

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Posted 26 December 2011 - 13:58

the tallest tree catches the most wind....

...and that tree in F1 is named Mr Schumacher


One thing I really like about Asia is the utter respect for achievement and even being so great as to be on the grid at all right down to last place all without "Tall Poppy" syndromes.



#16286 merschu

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Posted 27 December 2011 - 08:04

Someone on YouTube uploaded this video of Schumi's visit to the Imperial College London a few weeks back.




#16287 Raelene

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Posted 27 December 2011 - 08:17

thanks so much for posting. I would suggest anyone that is an F1 fan would enjoy this - whether they like MSC or not.

What a great guy doing that for those kids. I loved the end when they just went....wow.

Fantastic :up:

Edited by Raelene, 27 December 2011 - 08:43.


#16288 DutchCruijff

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Posted 27 December 2011 - 17:29

Someone on YouTube uploaded this video of Schumi's visit to the Imperial College London a few weeks back.

:cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry:

Pain.

#16289 ivand911

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Posted 27 December 2011 - 21:12

Great interview! So, MS won 1994 with Ford engine lacking around 100HP? He say about the package ,but still 100????

#16290 cheapracer

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Posted 28 December 2011 - 15:00

Great interview! So, MS won 1994 with Ford engine lacking around 100HP? He say about the package ,but still 100????


Ahh there's more to it than that, packaging, weight distribution, car balance, CoM/CoG, less fuel and aero's can be better with the shorter V8 and the torque'ier V8 engine a bit easier to drive so it's not all as bad as it sounds on the surface.

No one doubts the Williams was a little quicker at most tracks but not the difference "100hp" would suggest, if so the Williams would have left everything else for dead regardless of who was driving them.


#16291 rm111

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Posted 28 December 2011 - 15:46

Ahh there's more to it than that, packaging, weight distribution, car balance, CoM/CoG, less fuel and aero's can be better with the shorter V8 and the torque'ier V8 engine a bit easier to drive so it's not all as bad as it sounds on the surface.

No one doubts the Williams was a little quicker at most tracks but not the difference "100hp" would suggest, if so the Williams would have left everything else for dead regardless of who was driving them.


Apart from schumi they did.


#16292 Sakae

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Posted 01 January 2012 - 13:14

Happy New Year to you all

2012 - a year to remember by (a) Michael back on podium, (b) Michael extended his contract for 2013.

Sakae & his NY resolution

#16293 Boing 2

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Posted 02 January 2012 - 12:01

the tallest tree catches the most wind....









...and that tree in F1 is named Mr Schumacher



Yeah, just look at all the criticism Fangio got...

Edited by Boing 2, 02 January 2012 - 12:02.


#16294 ivand911

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Posted 02 January 2012 - 12:07

Yeah, just look at all the criticism Fangio got...

Who? :p


#16295 puxanando

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Posted 02 January 2012 - 13:11

Tomorrow is the birthday of Schumi, isn't it?

#16296 Group B

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Posted 02 January 2012 - 13:16

Yeah, just look at all the criticism Fangio got...

There were no internet forums full of jealous, negative haters then ...

#16297 tifosiMac

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Posted 02 January 2012 - 13:20

the tallest tree catches the most wind....

...and that tree in F1 is named Mr Schumacher

He does get alot of attention for his actions but I can think of a couple of other drivers who are more talked about, especially on forums.

#16298 Boing 2

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Posted 02 January 2012 - 14:55

There were no internet forums full of jealous, negative haters then ...


Or mindless, insecure and blinkered fanatics. :kiss:

#16299 Sakae

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Posted 02 January 2012 - 16:57

There were no internet forums full of jealous, negative haters then ...

I have no plans to write doctoral dissertation work on impact of the internet; however even as a neophyte I do realize multi-usefulness and danger of the medium. As someone who has read about him and seen him racing, since then Senna has achieved mythical and divine status, Fangio, Clark and some others never could do anything wrong, Schumacher being evil force and forever fundamentally flawed human being, and one can continue. The other day someone added Twitter to the Internet as a medium growing faster than Facebook, and in which personal opinions with growing intensity act as substitute for facts without accountability. Sebastian will face the internet-scrutiny which focuses on the moment, hardly taking step back for broader perspective. I think he is used to it, and knows how to handle such situations. Schumacher had to learn it. There will be always some who will develop new Litmus test with irrelevant and unreasonable conditions, but that’s us, and what we have become, and it is up to us then to change it.



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#16300 Math89

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Posted 02 January 2012 - 18:25

Tomorrow is the birthday of Schumi, isn't it?

Yes

Michael Schumacher (Hürth-Hermülheim, 3 januari 1969)