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Michael Schumacher (merged)


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#16251 Kubiccia

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Posted 21 December 2011 - 20:34

http://www.marca.com...mp;t=1324497117

:lol:

Marca deserves a sue! THis video doesn't belong to them, it was originally posted on youtube and the person who captured with her cell phone also posted Norbert Haug's, Ross Brawn's and Rosberg's singing.

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#16252 spa08

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Posted 21 December 2011 - 20:38

As mentioned by others it is the EBD and the car characteristics. The throttle or exhaust blowing must remain open on corner entry, it is the quickest way around a track as it generates downforce on entry. It completely negates the advantage that Michael has over many drivers on corner entry and exit. You can't balance the car on entry because that will alter the optimum blowing under braking as I understand. So Michael only has one option and that is to maximise corner exit and you can see this on the onboard shots, especially at Abu Dhabi, it requires being accurate on entry and a slower entry speed to maximise a better corner exit. The front end isn't strong either as seen by the understeer visible on the onboards that Brundle and Coulthard commented on so corner entry speed has to be reduced for the optimum line. Overall Michael's style has gone more to corner exit speed in 2011.

The tyre characteristics don't help much either as you can't be aggressive on corner entry as that takes too much life out of the tyres, as seen by Hamilton, which again doesn't help Michael much. The steering inputs have to be small on entry and effectively done by corner exit.


If what you say is true then we should see a much more competitive Michael next year

#16253 jj2728

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Posted 21 December 2011 - 22:01

You mean that he would have won it in BMW, Renault , RBR car?


And why not? There is no proof that he could have so there is NO answer to your question. Maybe he could have won and maybe not, but he did win with a midfield car.

#16254 jj2728

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Posted 21 December 2011 - 22:03

Anyway, returning somewhat on topic, I think it was quite obvious this year that there are top-mid-bottom midfield teams.

Top midfield: MGP
Mid midfield: Lotus, Force India
Bottom midfield: Sauber, Toro Rosso

No? :D


No

#16255 Tarzaan

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Posted 24 December 2011 - 09:26

Merry Christmas!/Boldog Karácsonyt Mindenkinek!/Frohe Weihnachten!

Posted Image

:clap:

Edited by Tarzaan, 24 December 2011 - 09:26.


#16256 cheapracer

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Posted 24 December 2011 - 09:38

No it was not. It was at best in 2008 a mid-field car. If anything Vettel made the difference, he accounted for 35 of the team's 39 points that year. And the conditions at Monza were wet in practice, qualifying and the race.


So what, Monza is the least reliant on a driver or a car's cornering capability of any track, yet STR were 1st and 4th on the grid - Ferrari power and low drag/downforce.

Ironically Schumacher was also able to have one of his best runs at Monza as well so if you hold Vettle on a pedestal for his 2008 Monza performance then it goes without saying that you must hold Schumacher in similar high standing - logic dictates.

Oh and like the Rosberg Vs Schumacher thread, there is a Vettle thread - it would be courteous of you Guys to apply your posts to the correct threads.

If what you say is true then we should see a much more competitive Michael next year


...along with a quieter Schumacher thread.

Edited by cheapracer, 24 December 2011 - 09:42.


#16257 spa08

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Posted 24 December 2011 - 10:45

So what, Monza is the least reliant on a driver or a car's cornering capability of any track, yet STR were 1st and 4th on the grid - Ferrari power and low drag/downforce.

Ironically Schumacher was also able to have one of his best runs at Monza as well so if you hold Vettle on a pedestal for his 2008 Monza performance then it goes without saying that you must hold Schumacher in similar high standing - logic dictates.

Oh and like the Rosberg Vs Schumacher thread, there is a Vettle thread - it would be courteous of you Guys to apply your posts to the correct threads.



...along with a quieter Schumacher thread.


If Schumacher does beat rosberg I doubt the thread will be any quieter

#16258 ivand911

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Posted 24 December 2011 - 10:55

If Schumacher does beat rosberg I doubt the thread will be any quieter

It will be, some people will be missing.


#16259 spa08

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Posted 24 December 2011 - 11:05

It will be, some people will be missing.


I doubt you will be

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#16260 Sakae

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Posted 24 December 2011 - 11:37

Merry Christmas and peace to you Michael, your Family, and also to your friends, including all fans who remain with you all those years.

#16261 steveninthematrix

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Posted 24 December 2011 - 11:50

the tallest tree catches the most wind....









...and that tree in F1 is named Mr Schumacher

#16262 jj2728

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Posted 24 December 2011 - 12:52

So what, Monza is the least reliant on a driver or a car's cornering capability of any track, yet STR were 1st and 4th on the grid - Ferrari power and low drag/downforce.

Ironically Schumacher was also able to have one of his best runs at Monza as well so if you hold Vettle on a pedestal for his 2008 Monza performance then it goes without saying that you must hold Schumacher in similar high standing - logic dictates.
.


Logic dictates nothing as I am not putting Vettel on a pedestal nor comparing him to Schumacher, read my prior posts. The Italian GP weekend that year was wet throughout so the Ferrari power/downforce didn't really come into play. I was making an earlier point about the STR being a mid-field car and nothing more.

#16263 MikeTekRacing

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Posted 24 December 2011 - 13:21

Logic dictates nothing as I am not putting Vettel on a pedestal nor comparing him to Schumacher, read my prior posts. The Italian GP weekend that year was wet throughout so the Ferrari power/downforce didn't really come into play. I was making an earlier point about the STR being a mid-field car and nothing more.

So Bourdais was also great to be 4th in STR

Interesting coincidence...

#16264 jj2728

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Posted 24 December 2011 - 16:07

So Bourdais was also great to be 4th in STR

Interesting coincidence...


Yes he was. Hey, STR had it figured out that weekend whilst the others didn't. So why couldn't Bourdais have shone on that one weekend? Read very carefully what I have been saying, that the STR was a midfield car, that on one particular weekend, with a bit of help from the weather, things were pretty much dialed in for them.

#16265 sharo

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Posted 25 December 2011 - 11:14

the tallest tree catches the most wind....



...and that tree in F1 is named Mr Schumacher

:up:
Many people fail to grasp the idea though.

Edited by sharo, 25 December 2011 - 11:14.


#16266 cheapracer

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Posted 26 December 2011 - 13:58

the tallest tree catches the most wind....

...and that tree in F1 is named Mr Schumacher


One thing I really like about Asia is the utter respect for achievement and even being so great as to be on the grid at all right down to last place all without "Tall Poppy" syndromes.



#16267 merschu

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Posted 27 December 2011 - 08:04

Someone on YouTube uploaded this video of Schumi's visit to the Imperial College London a few weeks back.




#16268 Raelene

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Posted 27 December 2011 - 08:17

thanks so much for posting. I would suggest anyone that is an F1 fan would enjoy this - whether they like MSC or not.

What a great guy doing that for those kids. I loved the end when they just went....wow.

Fantastic :up:

Edited by Raelene, 27 December 2011 - 08:43.


#16269 DutchCruijff

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Posted 27 December 2011 - 17:29

Someone on YouTube uploaded this video of Schumi's visit to the Imperial College London a few weeks back.

:cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry:

Pain.

#16270 ivand911

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Posted 27 December 2011 - 21:12

Great interview! So, MS won 1994 with Ford engine lacking around 100HP? He say about the package ,but still 100????

#16271 cheapracer

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Posted 28 December 2011 - 15:00

Great interview! So, MS won 1994 with Ford engine lacking around 100HP? He say about the package ,but still 100????


Ahh there's more to it than that, packaging, weight distribution, car balance, CoM/CoG, less fuel and aero's can be better with the shorter V8 and the torque'ier V8 engine a bit easier to drive so it's not all as bad as it sounds on the surface.

No one doubts the Williams was a little quicker at most tracks but not the difference "100hp" would suggest, if so the Williams would have left everything else for dead regardless of who was driving them.


#16272 rm111

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Posted 28 December 2011 - 15:46

Ahh there's more to it than that, packaging, weight distribution, car balance, CoM/CoG, less fuel and aero's can be better with the shorter V8 and the torque'ier V8 engine a bit easier to drive so it's not all as bad as it sounds on the surface.

No one doubts the Williams was a little quicker at most tracks but not the difference "100hp" would suggest, if so the Williams would have left everything else for dead regardless of who was driving them.


Apart from schumi they did.


#16273 Sakae

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Posted 01 January 2012 - 13:14

Happy New Year to you all

2012 - a year to remember by (a) Michael back on podium, (b) Michael extended his contract for 2013.

Sakae & his NY resolution

#16274 Boing 2

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Posted 02 January 2012 - 12:01

the tallest tree catches the most wind....









...and that tree in F1 is named Mr Schumacher



Yeah, just look at all the criticism Fangio got...

Edited by Boing 2, 02 January 2012 - 12:02.


#16275 ivand911

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Posted 02 January 2012 - 12:07

Yeah, just look at all the criticism Fangio got...

Who? :p


#16276 puxanando

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Posted 02 January 2012 - 13:11

Tomorrow is the birthday of Schumi, isn't it?

#16277 Group B

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Posted 02 January 2012 - 13:16

Yeah, just look at all the criticism Fangio got...

There were no internet forums full of jealous, negative haters then ...

#16278 tifosiMac

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Posted 02 January 2012 - 13:20

the tallest tree catches the most wind....

...and that tree in F1 is named Mr Schumacher

He does get alot of attention for his actions but I can think of a couple of other drivers who are more talked about, especially on forums.

#16279 Boing 2

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Posted 02 January 2012 - 14:55

There were no internet forums full of jealous, negative haters then ...


Or mindless, insecure and blinkered fanatics. :kiss:

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#16280 Sakae

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Posted 02 January 2012 - 16:57

There were no internet forums full of jealous, negative haters then ...

I have no plans to write doctoral dissertation work on impact of the internet; however even as a neophyte I do realize multi-usefulness and danger of the medium. As someone who has read about him and seen him racing, since then Senna has achieved mythical and divine status, Fangio, Clark and some others never could do anything wrong, Schumacher being evil force and forever fundamentally flawed human being, and one can continue. The other day someone added Twitter to the Internet as a medium growing faster than Facebook, and in which personal opinions with growing intensity act as substitute for facts without accountability. Sebastian will face the internet-scrutiny which focuses on the moment, hardly taking step back for broader perspective. I think he is used to it, and knows how to handle such situations. Schumacher had to learn it. There will be always some who will develop new Litmus test with irrelevant and unreasonable conditions, but that’s us, and what we have become, and it is up to us then to change it.



#16281 Math89

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Posted 02 January 2012 - 18:25

Tomorrow is the birthday of Schumi, isn't it?

Yes

Michael Schumacher (Hürth-Hermülheim, 3 januari 1969)



#16282 KavB

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Posted 02 January 2012 - 19:07

Is this the final season for Schumacher? I seriously hope not. Depending on his form, I hope he can go on for a couple more seasons. It's strange to say considering he's 43 tomorrow.. If he has no intention of staying on then I hope he announces it soon so we can appreciate every race of his for the last time! :)

#16283 Muz Bee

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Posted 03 January 2012 - 00:07

Is this the final season for Schumacher? I seriously hope not. Depending on his form, I hope he can go on for a couple more seasons. It's strange to say considering he's 43 tomorrow.. If he has no intention of staying on then I hope he announces it soon so we can appreciate every race of his for the last time! :)

If it were any other driver with the 2010/11 scorecard that MS has returned? I would doubt you would not be calling for a replacement. To put it in perspective, I have no great desire to see Raikonnen take the place that a deserving young talent could be occupying at "Lotus".

It seems odd (to me) that there is a nostalgic theme here. MS is clearly not thrilling us with the great drives of the earlier career and looks like a midfield journeyman at best. Unlike old racing cars which still look and sound glorious when run up the hill at Goodwood, old race drivers leave me with a sense of sadness that they show none of their old sparkle.

Not meaning to offend or start a furious debate, just saying....

#16284 Richardc

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Posted 03 January 2012 - 00:20

No offence to anyone - and i'm sure of shit he wouldn't feel any.

He was very marginally outscored by a rated driver with 5 years experience, through what people that had watched carefully generally agree was bad luck, had better maximum results and showed more overtaking skill, defending skill, and racecraft. He had a few more mistakes, but a driver that is pushing for more than the place the car deserves probably will.

#16285 Szoelloe

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Posted 03 January 2012 - 01:20

If it were any other driver with the 2010/11 scorecard that MS has returned? I would doubt you would not be calling for a replacement. To put it in perspective, I have no great desire to see Raikonnen take the place that a deserving young talent could be occupying at "Lotus".

It seems odd (to me) that there is a nostalgic theme here. MS is clearly not thrilling us with the great drives of the earlier career and looks like a midfield journeyman at best. Unlike old racing cars which still look and sound glorious when run up the hill at Goodwood, old race drivers leave me with a sense of sadness that they show none of their old sparkle.

Not meaning to offend or start a furious debate, just saying....


apart from being handed his own ass in qualys, on race days I would say he was far more convincing than NR. Saying that, it was largely due to NR qualifying higher usually. But that doesn't make your post look less like you have written it half-drunk. :) I will gladly give the old guy another year to show what he is worth. If the car is not up to it, that will hurt NR way more than MS. Nostalgy? None here. It looks to me that MS has been quietly building himself up again. If I am not right, and you are, I will accept that with grace too.

#16286 Raelene

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Posted 03 January 2012 - 04:13

He does get alot of attention for his actions but I can think of a couple of other drivers who are more talked about, especially on forums.



you really are a newbie aren't you!!

#16287 baddog

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Posted 03 January 2012 - 08:04

If it were any other driver with the 2010/11 scorecard that MS has returned? I would doubt you would not be calling for a replacement. To put it in perspective, I have no great desire to see Raikonnen take the place that a deserving young talent could be occupying at "Lotus".

After 2010 maybe, after 2011 not at all.

#16288 IsometricBacon

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Posted 03 January 2012 - 08:08

Thats unlikely. The EBD simply hasnt worked for him, it would be easy (obviously because most people have not even noticed it) to underestimate the effect this has on his driving.


I find it strange that Michael or anyone from the team has not mentioned this problem if it were indeed true. Infact not a whisper which can only logically mean its not true and you are making it up.

#16289 IsometricBacon

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Posted 03 January 2012 - 08:17

As mentioned by others it is the EBD and the car characteristics. The throttle or exhaust blowing must remain open on corner entry, it is the quickest way around a track as it generates downforce on entry. It completely negates the advantage that Michael has over many drivers on corner entry and exit. You can't balance the car on entry because that will alter the optimum blowing under braking as I understand. So Michael only has one option and that is to maximise corner exit and you can see this on the onboard shots, especially at Abu Dhabi, it requires being accurate on entry and a slower entry speed to maximise a better corner exit. The front end isn't strong either as seen by the understeer visible on the onboards that Brundle and Coulthard commented on so corner entry speed has to be reduced for the optimum line. Overall Michael's style has gone more to corner exit speed in 2011.

The tyre characteristics don't help much either as you can't be aggressive on corner entry as that takes too much life out of the tyres, as seen by Hamilton, which again doesn't help Michael much. The steering inputs have to be small on entry and effectively done by corner exit.



Michael losing an advantage does not explain why he was on average half a second slower that Rosberg. If you can no longer balance the car on corner entry (complete rubbish) then how is rosberg often 1 second a lap faster than Michael? Fact is, the EBD just gives you downforce, just as next year the car will have downforce without it, and it has nothing to do with eliminating the need to balance of the car on entry. There is still the need to find the limit of grip with or without an EBD.

The much larger reason why your whole post is nonsense is because Michael and his team have never uttered a single word about what you are talking about, which is strange because you would assume they would be the first ones to do so, especially considering they have never been short of excuses for him, and often last yeat he specifically said he did not understans why he was so much slower. Maybe you better email him.

What I find astounding is that someone has thrown out this excuse, and everyone here seems to be taking it seriously despite, as I said Michael or the team never mentioning it. :confused:

Edited by IsometricBacon, 03 January 2012 - 08:19.


#16290 baddog

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Posted 03 January 2012 - 09:10

Michael losing an advantage does not explain why he was on average half a second slower that Rosberg. If you can no longer balance the car on corner entry (complete rubbish) then how is rosberg often 1 second a lap faster than Michael?

..and you accuse ME of making things up? Fantasy numbers pulled out of your ass dont contribute anything to a discussion.

#16291 IsometricBacon

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Posted 03 January 2012 - 09:16

..and you accuse ME of making things up? Fantasy numbers pulled out of your ass dont contribute anything to a discussion.



Turkey qualifying he was 9 tenths slower. There were a few other races where he was around 1 second a lap slower. My point remains even if its 0.5 which was the average.

#16292 tifosiMac

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Posted 03 January 2012 - 09:21

you really are a newbie aren't you!!

I think its fairly obvious I'm not, at least not to the world of watching F1. I can appreciate up until 2006 Schuey got alot of negative views thrown his way but its no longer the case. Pointing out that I may not have been a member of this forum 'back in the day' is largely irrelevant. Perhaps its a result of the guys at the front gathering all the press and Michael is rarely there? Thats not meant as a dig towards the great man, but as soon as he sits in a competitive car and begins hassling the young guns at the front you'll soon see the negativity reappear. For now though he does not attract the same level of criticism others on the present grid get. I hope I have made my point.

From a 'newbie' to an 'old timer' without a patronizing tone.

Edited by tifosiMac, 03 January 2012 - 09:23.


#16293 Raelene

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Posted 03 January 2012 - 09:42

I thought it was pretty obvious I'm talking about a newbie to Forums...so apologies if that wasn't so clear..

MS has been far more talked about in forums over the years than Lewis currently is..., all the good, bad and the ugly...even during his retirement he was still talked about

Lewis has a long way to go to be up there - but he's on his way!

[quote] For now though he does not attract the same level of criticism others on the present grid get.[/qwuote]

I suggest you read the Rosberg vs Schumacher thread - some of these guys have been continuing with the same level of criticsim for years and years...

#16294 baddog

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Posted 03 January 2012 - 10:16

There were a few other races where he was around 1 second a lap slower. My point remains even if its 0.5 which was the average.

No there were not 'a few other races' like that.
No it was not the average, the average was much less.

If you are going to use numbers you should try to use the REAL numbers. Go find them, come back and we might have something to talk about.

#16295 ivand911

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Posted 03 January 2012 - 16:58

Happy Birthday Michael!
To go to Jerez or not ,it is tough one. Decisions, decisions. One month to the tests. Can't wait.

Turkey qualifying he was 9 tenths slower. There were a few other races where he was around 1 second a lap slower. My point remains even if its 0.5 which was the average.

Where this come from? Nico best Q lap 1:25.574, Michael best Q lap 1:26.121. He did 1:26.038 in FP3. So, 1:26.646 form Q3 was not his best time and I am positive he could beat 1:26.000 if he wanted. But, he kept his tyres.

Edited by ivand911, 03 January 2012 - 18:41.


#16296 Tardis40

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Posted 03 January 2012 - 17:16

Michael has obviously not done as well in qualy as Rosberg. It's redundant to even mention it. In fact, Michael was never a real ball of fire at qualifying. It took him 250 GPs to top Senna's pole record of 65 poles which was done in only 161 events. As a point of reference, Vettel already has 30 poles in only 80 races.

But you don't get any points for Saturday. Rosberg regularly over-qualified the car and as a result usually lost positions in the race, while Schumacher did just the opposite. I would suggest it comes down to tire preparation. For whatever reason Rosberg does a better job of bringing the finicky tires up to temperature without hurting them.

Now if we could have a season where Michael doesn't get taken out by rookies and the pit crew remember to tighten all his wheel nuts then perhaps we can have a better result.

PS - let's bear in mind that the car was a couple of seconds slower than the leaders and very often didn't even finish on the lead lap.

Edited by Tardis40, 03 January 2012 - 17:17.


#16297 cheapracer

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Posted 03 January 2012 - 17:29

In fact, Michael was never a real ball of fire at qualifying.


Actually except for Senna the rest of the multiple WDC's fit about there as well.

The qualy argument is about all the haters have to grip too now, let them have a little fun :lol:

#16298 tyker

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Posted 03 January 2012 - 21:02

Turkey qualifying he was 9 tenths slower. There were a few other races where he was around 1 second a lap slower. My point remains even if its 0.5 which was the average.



No there were not 'a few other races' like that.
No it was not the average, the average was much less.

If you are going to use numbers you should try to use the REAL numbers. Go find them, come back and we might have something to talk about.



Happy Birthday Michael!
To go to Jerez or not ,it is tough one. Decisions, decisions. One month to the tests. Can't wait.


Where this come from? Nico best Q lap 1:25.574, Michael best Q lap 1:26.121. He did 1:26.038 in FP3. So, 1:26.646 form Q3 was not his best time and I am positive he could beat 1:26.000 if he wanted. But, he kept his tyres.

No Turkey is not correct but there were a few races where Rosberg was a second or close to a second quicker, the biggest gaps being:-
1.132s
1.002s
0.917s
0.782s
0.754s

The average was also correct it being 0.49s

Michael has obviously not done as well in qualy as Rosberg. It's redundant to even mention it. In fact, Michael was never a real ball of fire at qualifying. It took him 250 GPs to top Senna's pole record of 65 poles which was done in only 161 events. As a point of reference, Vettel already has 30 poles in only 80 races.

But you don't get any points for Saturday. Rosberg regularly over-qualified the car and as a result usually lost positions in the race, while Schumacher did just the opposite. I would suggest it comes down to tire preparation. For whatever reason Rosberg does a better job of bringing the finicky tires up to temperature without hurting them.

Now if we could have a season where Michael doesn't get taken out by rookies and the pit crew remember to tighten all his wheel nuts then perhaps we can have a better result.

PS - let's bear in mind that the car was a couple of seconds slower than the leaders and very often didn't even finish on the lead lap.



Actually except for Senna the rest of the multiple WDC's fit about there as well.

The qualy argument is about all the haters have to grip too now, let them have a little fun :lol:

Actually Schumacher has always been an excellent qualifier regularly beating his teammates easily

Edited by tyker, 03 January 2012 - 21:03.


#16299 Rambazamba

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Posted 03 January 2012 - 21:32

and the pole/race ratio says nothing about his qualifying strength if we compare him to Senna or Vettel.
With the current qualifying rule or the old 60 minutes quali during 100% of his career, he might have easily 15-20 poles more - at least I would say.

Edited by Rambazamba, 03 January 2012 - 21:33.


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#16300 tyker

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Posted 03 January 2012 - 21:41

and the pole/race ratio says nothing about his qualifying strength if we compare him to Senna or Vettel.
With the current qualifying rule or the old 60 minutes quali during 100% of his career, he might have easily 15-20 poles more - at least I would say.

Yes he would have had more poles, this sort of asks the question is Rosberg the best qualifier now, even better than Vettel, or has age lost Schumacher his out and out pace?