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Michael Schumacher (merged)


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#16351 Raelene

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Posted 05 January 2012 - 02:26

Why? What difference is that going to make?
People are gonna cherry pick this and that ad finitum to suit their agendas....



did you not see the rolling eyes.....you just proved my point completely...

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#16352 Paco

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Posted 05 January 2012 - 02:28

In qualifying both drivers are driving as fast as possible and there are no other sessions that would be faster than qualifying.


That is way oversimplistic view of modern day qualifying.. especially in the 2011 season. Be nice if the was the case like in the early 90's when that was the case.

Between 3 qualifying sessions, tire strategy and management and if you know you're only as good 7-10th with a hope and prayer into 5-6.. making compromises to all out speed for longer tire durability and race pace when you're at the backend of the qualifying session 3.. means all out pace not exactly as important as maybe years gone by. Then throw in DRS which means if you qualifying 8 vs. 7 but you have DRS to help make the pass, you can feel better about doing a setup that conserves the tire or engine just that extra bit as you can open your wing to get passed the guy in front of you..

So.. no... in 2011 positions 6-10 qualifying.. it's not all about going as fast as possible. Unless you're up for pole in q3.. it's more about compromises then all out speed even when comparing team mates. If MS had kept his nose more clean and avoided so many of those avoidable shunts, he'd proven the above more convincingly.

Edited by Paco, 05 January 2012 - 02:39.


#16353 IsometricBacon

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Posted 05 January 2012 - 05:31

Backtracking a bit more are we? :lol: The discussion was clearly about qualifying pace, wherein you claimed (incorrectly) that Nico was half a second faster than Michael. Here's a few of your posts:


How am I back tracking, when I am reinforcing that the discussion is about qualifying pace rather than grid position? My claims were correct when you stopped cherry picking and just took their fastest qualifying laps. Feel free to suggest a better method to measure qualifying pace, than the fastest qualifying lap.

if you want to talk about pace, lets talk about race pace. The trouble is Schumacher's race pace was generally better than Nico's, so that won't work for you. I guess you're left with cherry picking times from various sessions then.


No not various sessions, just the entire 1 hour qualifying.I don't have a problem with race pace but the problem is that its much harder to judge because of so many other factors, and I think its very hard to really compare their race pace, although from memory whenever I looked at thir live timing Michael was almost always slower. under equal conditions.

Incidentally your whole analysis leaves a lot to be desired. Firstly, you absolutely cannot rely on drivers going as fast as possible during qualifying. There's lots of times when that's not the case. Secondly, if you pick random times from various sessions, you've eliminated the common denominator, as conditions are constantly changing. If you really insist on comparing Q pace, then each session must be taken as its own sample. Otherwise you are comparing apples with oranges. Thirdly, according to the rules Q1 & Q2 times are wiped out for those who make it to Q3, so its pointless to include them in any discussion, as they count for exactly nothing.


Wow, where do I start.

1. You can rely on drivers going as fast as they can in qualifying more than any other session.
2.There is no reason that a driver would not go as fast as possible in qualifying because that is the point of qualifying. It never happens, unless they don't bother setting a time at all to save tyres.
3. There is only a 10 minute difference between Q2 and Q3, which is not enough time for conditions to change.
4. For the purpose of final grid position, Q2 times do not count for anythinf, but this is a discussion about qualifying pace, not grid position, so those times are absolutely valid and important.

BTW, fastest laps don't account for any points, look at Raikkonen's final season. A bunch of fastest laps, but nowhere in the Championship, to the point where he was ousted by Ferrari.


Nowhere did I mention fastest race laps.


Bottom line: Schumi was generally slower than Nico in qualifying, but not nearly to the extent you were claiming. Why not just accept this and move on?


I am not claiming anything, the numbers and facts speak for themselves, and prove Michael was around 0.5 slower on average in qualifying than Nico.

#16354 IsometricBacon

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Posted 05 January 2012 - 05:41

That is way oversimplistic view of modern day qualifying.. especially in the 2011 season. Be nice if the was the case like in the early 90's when that was the case.

Between 3 qualifying sessions, tire strategy and management and if you know you're only as good 7-10th with a hope and prayer into 5-6.. making compromises to all out speed for longer tire durability and race pace when you're at the backend of the qualifying session 3.. means all out pace not exactly as important as maybe years gone by. Then throw in DRS which means if you qualifying 8 vs. 7 but you have DRS to help make the pass, you can feel better about doing a setup that conserves the tire or engine just that extra bit as you can open your wing to get passed the guy in front of you..

So.. no... in 2011 positions 6-10 qualifying.. it's not all about going as fast as possible. Unless you're up for pole in q3.. it's more about compromises then all out speed even when comparing team mates. If MS had kept his nose more clean and avoided so many of those avoidable shunts, he'd proven the above more convincingly.



You are basically claiming Michael was the only mercedes driver who preffered to set up his car for race trim and sacrifice qualifying speed. There is absolutely no evidence of this at all, and considering Michael was often left scratching his head and openly said he was puzzled at the gap to Rosberg, it's safe to say your theory is not true.

#16355 ivand911

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Posted 05 January 2012 - 07:49

OK, MS have the most overtakes this year, so I think it is somehow acceptable he have the most crashes(not sure about the most thing). Lewis was pretty close.

Edited by ivand911, 05 January 2012 - 08:01.


#16356 jj2728

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Posted 05 January 2012 - 10:20

did you not see the rolling eyes.....you just proved my point completely...


Oh jeez.....so sorry to have missed the rolling eyes...... :rolleyes:

#16357 DutchCruijff

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Posted 05 January 2012 - 10:32

Not sure if you guys noticed this on the driver preferences/styles thread but here's a good article from '03:- http://www.scribd.co...-vs-Barrichello

1. The speed differentials are amazing i.e. 0.3s heading into Suzuka turn one
2. His seemingly lackadaisical mindset in the race thinking about what position his brother is in or what's for dinner? :lol:

#16358 ivand911

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Posted 05 January 2012 - 11:11

Great article. Explains a lot of stuff for 2010 and 2011. For him never lifting the throttle and what car he prefer. Things that he didn't have in 2010 and 2011. He was obliged to lift this year. And he was still fast. And some people say he can't adapt? He is adapting, but I think he don't have the necessary people around him, to do their part. I think 2012 rules will help him to use again his favoured style. Just hope the car will have his favoured characteristics(incisive front end), fingers crossed. The rest is easy. If this was MS not feeling comfortable , I don't want to think what will happen when he feels comfortable in the car.

Anyone visiting Barcelona 22-24 February(F1 tests)? I am going there.

Edited by ivand911, 05 January 2012 - 11:18.


#16359 Szoelloe

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Posted 05 January 2012 - 11:47

Great article. Explains a lot of stuff for 2010 and 2011. For him never lifting the throttle and what car he prefer. Things that he didn't have in 2010 and 2011. He was obliged to lift this year. And he was still fast. And some people say he can't adapt? He is adapting, but I think he don't have the necessary people around him, to do their part. I think 2012 rules will help him to use again his favoured style. Just hope the car will have his favoured characteristics(incisive front end), fingers crossed. The rest is easy. If this was MS not feeling comfortable , I don't want to think what will happen when he feels comfortable in the car.

Anyone visiting Barcelona 22-24 February(F1 tests)? I am going there.


Yeah, his drivng style was always extremely aggressive with the throttle, and yes, 2012 tech rules do put things right in that aspect. We will see.

Envy you, I can't, unfortunately. If you have a smartphone, could you tweet, or upload some pictures? Or, as a matter of fact, anykind of info would be more than welcome from the test, I think.
.

Edited by Szoelloe, 05 January 2012 - 11:53.


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#16360 ivand911

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Posted 05 January 2012 - 11:55

Envy you, I can't, unfortunately. If you have a smartphone, could you tweet, or upload some pictures? Or, as a matter of fact, anykind of info would be more than welcome from the test, I think.
.

I will post link to my pictures later. Other things depend from internet(price, availability). And I admit, I am not very good in recognising when one car is good or bad. :rolleyes: I will miss the first day(the new car), but I hope to see MS in action (more than the other driver). So, I hope Nico will drive the first day. Hope for the best weather too.

Edited by ivand911, 05 January 2012 - 11:56.


#16361 Szoelloe

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Posted 05 January 2012 - 12:05

I will post link to my pictures later. Other things depend from internet(price, availability). And I admit, I am not very good in recognising when one car is good or bad. :rolleyes: I will miss the first day(the new car), but I hope to see MS in action (more than the other driver). So, I hope Nico will drive the first day. Hope for the best weather too.


Thanks for that. Recognizing is not that hard, you will see all participating cars independently, and following each other too at matching speeds, you will see the behavior differences/similarities at once. Yeah, weather, well that would be important to be acceptable. And Barcelona is just truly a fantastic place, really.



#16362 salamin

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Posted 05 January 2012 - 12:09

Yeah, his drivng style was always extremely aggressive with the throttle, and yes, 2012 tech rules do put things right in that aspect. We will see.

Envy you, I can't, unfortunately. If you have a smartphone, could you tweet, or upload some pictures? Or, as a matter of fact, anykind of info would be more than welcome from the test, I think.
.


could you explain why exactly ?

#16363 ivand911

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Posted 05 January 2012 - 12:25

could you explain why exactly ?

I will try. No blown diffuser, he can again use throttle in the corner. With BD he can't press the throttle(have to lift). If he press it, there will be no blowing on diffuser(the program extent). And engine programs didn't like it. There was case where engineer tell him on radio not to press the throttle in the corner.

Edited by ivand911, 05 January 2012 - 12:28.


#16364 salamin

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Posted 05 January 2012 - 12:29

I will try. No blown diffuser, he can again use throttle in the corner. With BD he can't press the throttle(have to lift). If he press it, there will be no blowing on diffuser. And engine programs didn't like it. There was case where engineer tell him on radio not to press the throttle in the corner.


Yeah, I remember that radio message as well, and the reasoning sounds logical.
But what about 2010, did they used some kind of off-throttle engine mapping as well ?

#16365 Tardis40

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Posted 05 January 2012 - 12:35

2010,2011 makes no difference. MGP was the fourth place team both years. No possibility of beating any of the three leaders. The car finished exactly where it belonged. Nothing the drivers could do about it.



#16366 ivand911

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Posted 05 January 2012 - 12:36

Yeah, I remember that radio message as well, and the reasoning sounds logical.
But what about 2010, did they used some kind of off-throttle engine mapping as well ?

Don't know about lifting the throttle in 2010. Did he do it then or not, I don't know. What program they used. Then the car was to understeery for his liking. It was mess car, but still better than W02 comparing to the others. Also, driving style depend from the car, maybe 2010 car was not good for his throttle driving. He wasn't sure in the car. Front end was not pointy enough. Also tyres in 2010.
I hope next year he can return to his driving style. I hope car and engine electronics will permit it .

Edited by ivand911, 05 January 2012 - 12:52.


#16367 Szoelloe

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Posted 05 January 2012 - 12:40

could you explain why exactly ?



Read the article(if you haven't yet), its old, but very valid about how he drives. I have posted this once years ago too if I remember correctly. The EBD and engine mapping restricts the driver's throttle input to zero during cornering, and MS has always used the thottle as means of car control during braking. Look at that telemetry its very telling. With the extreme engine mapping , or cold blowing, if you wish, the throttle is controlled by the ECU during slow/medium corners. It effectively fxxxed all throttle/braking drivers IMHO. But usually I get the heat for saying that, its considered to be an excuse. Its not. Somebody here posted already that MS was warned several times on radio not to use the throttle when cornering.

#16368 salamin

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Posted 05 January 2012 - 12:56

Sounds reasonable, no doubt, but according to that version MS should have been better in 2010 ... OTOH there are too many factors apart from off-throttle engine map *(understeering car in 2010 like Ivan mentioned, tyres, ..)
So let's hope for a better year and thanks for the explanation Szőllő :wave:

#16369 Szoelloe

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Posted 05 January 2012 - 13:13

Sounds reasonable, no doubt, but according to that version MS should have been better in 2010 ... OTOH there are too many factors apart from off-throttle engine map *(understeering car in 2010 like Ivan mentioned, tyres, ..)
So let's hope for a better year and thanks for the explanation Szőllő :wave:


Youre welcome. :) As to 2010, if you look at those qualys, MS and NR were quite even until they started their own extreme engine mapping development. I am not saying MS was actually beating NR on a regular basis, but there was no .6-8s diff between them at all. One thing seems to be sure, though. NR copes with understeer better than MS, as I see it. It is not very dissimilar to how for instance JB drives, but I could be wrong on that one. Eager to see how 2012 pans out, should be very entertaining and close between them.


#16370 DutchCruijff

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Posted 05 January 2012 - 14:48

I will post link to my pictures later. Other things depend from internet(price, availability). And I admit, I am not very good in recognising when one car is good or bad. :rolleyes: I will miss the first day(the new car), but I hope to see MS in action (more than the other driver). So, I hope Nico will drive the first day. Hope for the best weather too.

You're traveling from Bulgaria (am I right) to Spain for a couple of days purely for the F1 testing?

Utter commitment.

#16371 ivand911

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Posted 05 January 2012 - 17:55

You're traveling from Bulgaria (am I right) to Spain for a couple of days purely for the F1 testing?
Utter commitment.

Yes. From Bucharest which is closer to my Bulgarian home town. Two way tickets staggering price of 60 pounds.  ;) So , it is not so bad. My brother is coming from Cardiff. I will not stay all 8 hours on the track, my brother can't handle it. :p I think it is good value for the money. Especially when cars make around 80-100 laps per day. Much more than in Friday and Saturday(GP weekends). I was thinking about Jerez, but it is hard to get there and more expensive, so I settled for Barcelonaaaa. :clap:

Edited by ivand911, 05 January 2012 - 18:00.


#16372 Tardis40

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Posted 05 January 2012 - 19:01

Yes. From Bucharest which is closer to my Bulgarian home town. Two way tickets staggering price of 60 pounds. ;) So , it is not so bad. My brother is coming from Cardiff. I will not stay all 8 hours on the track, my brother can't handle it. :p I think it is good value for the money. Especially when cars make around 80-100 laps per day. Much more than in Friday and Saturday(GP weekends). I was thinking about Jerez, but it is hard to get there and more expensive, so I settled for Barcelonaaaa. :clap:


Don't forget your camera :)


#16373 F1Champion

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Posted 05 January 2012 - 19:16

Great article, I have read it a couple of years ago but it was nice to read again as it links to his current comments. He needs a strong front end which the W02 didn't have and the W03 needs to have, not just for Michael but Nico as well. The off throttle blowing should allow his dual use of the pedals again, hopefully(!), but I have a niggling feeling that off throttle blowing will be back in some way.

OT - I would really like to read telemetry of any driver this year with a car with EBD to see the difference.

Edited by F1Champion, 05 January 2012 - 19:19.


#16374 Kubiccia

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Posted 05 January 2012 - 19:40

Even though understeer is not ideal for Schumi, he coped greatly with it in 96 Ferrari. Imo, the lack of speed is age-related more than anything rather it's not being able to use throttle or understeer or tires....

Have any of you ever watched Schumacher's onboard qualifying lap in Estoril 91? I have never seem Schumacher drive absolutely on the limit, like he did in that lap, since his return. I Think the best of it is gone, unfortunately. But it's good that we still can watch the old man even slower.

#16375 hammibal

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Posted 05 January 2012 - 20:27

That is way oversimplistic view of modern day qualifying.. especially in the 2011 season. Be nice if the was the case like in the early 90's when that was the case.

Between 3 qualifying sessions, tire strategy and management and if you know you're only as good 7-10th with a hope and prayer into 5-6.. making compromises to all out speed for longer tire durability and race pace when you're at the backend of the qualifying session 3.. means all out pace not exactly as important as maybe years gone by. Then throw in DRS which means if you qualifying 8 vs. 7 but you have DRS to help make the pass, you can feel better about doing a setup that conserves the tire or engine just that extra bit as you can open your wing to get passed the guy in front of you..

So.. no... in 2011 positions 6-10 qualifying.. it's not all about going as fast as possible. Unless you're up for pole in q3.. it's more about compromises then all out speed even when comparing team mates. If MS had kept his nose more clean and avoided so many of those avoidable shunts, he'd proven the above more convincingly.

It is what it is, Schumacher's poor qualifying meant he had to take more risks in the races, whilst Rosberg qualified the car where it should be and ended up scoring more points, its always better to qualify well, ask Vettel

#16376 George Costanza

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Posted 05 January 2012 - 21:17

Even though understeer is not ideal for Schumi, he coped greatly with it in 96 Ferrari. Imo, the lack of speed is age-related more than anything rather it's not being able to use throttle or understeer or tires....

Have any of you ever watched Schumacher's onboard qualifying lap in Estoril 91? I have never seem Schumacher drive absolutely on the limit, like he did in that lap, since his return. I Think the best of it is gone, unfortunately. But it's good that we still can watch the old man even slower.



1996 was vintage; it would be silly to expect him to be on that level again.

#16377 Urawa

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Posted 06 January 2012 - 11:10

"I know the team better and I am more involved... at first I was a little rusty. Things are better now and I am convinced Mercedes and I will succeed," he is quoted as saying by Gazzetta dello Sport.

"We need another small step and then we can make it to the top."

http://www1.skysport...t-on-Schumacher

#16378 krea

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Posted 06 January 2012 - 11:31

I think it's still pretty impressive that a 43 years old man is just 13 points (and this only because of some unlucky moments) behind a Rosberg who is a great driver.



#16379 IsometricBacon

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Posted 06 January 2012 - 11:33

I think it's still pretty impressive that a 43 years old man is just 13 points (and this only because of some unlucky moments) behind a Rosberg who is a great driver.


How can he be a great driver with only 5 podiums in 120 odd starts?

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#16380 krea

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Posted 06 January 2012 - 11:38

How can he be a great driver with only 5 podiums in 120 odd starts?


He never drove a racing winning car but he showed great driving skills in all his F1 years.



#16381 IsometricBacon

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Posted 06 January 2012 - 11:42

He never drove a racing winning car but he showed great driving skills in all his F1 years.


Great drivers don't need race winning cars to have far far better results than that. That is why they are great. You do not need to be a great driver to have great results in a race winning car.

#16382 Szoelloe

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Posted 06 January 2012 - 11:45

Great drivers don't need race winning cars to have far far better results than that. That is why they are great. You do not need to be a great driver to have great results in a race winning car.


:lol:

#16383 krea

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Posted 06 January 2012 - 11:48

Great drivers don't need race winning cars to have far far better results than that. That is why they are great. You do not need to be a great driver to have great results in a race winning car.


It's not possible to win a race if 3 teams are a lot faster without crazy circumstances.

What are you talking is silly talk

#16384 IsometricBacon

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Posted 06 January 2012 - 11:54

It's not possible to win a race if 3 teams are a lot faster without crazy circumstances.

What are you talking is silly talk


I never said he had to win. A great driver would get many podiums and at least challenge for race wins. 5 podiums in 120 races is not great, its mediocre for a driver who has had good machinery his whole career.

#16385 spa08

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Posted 06 January 2012 - 11:57

Great drivers don't need race winning cars to have far far better results than that. That is why they are great. You do not need to be a great driver to have great results in a race winning car.


Schumacher obviously isn't great enough then!

#16386 krea

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Posted 06 January 2012 - 12:00

other great drivers like Kubica too or Button before he got a championship winning car.

#16387 IsometricBacon

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Posted 06 January 2012 - 12:02

You use the word 'great' rather cheaply. 'Good' is what you should be using.

#16388 rm111

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Posted 06 January 2012 - 12:15

Yes and hamy has had his arse handed to him by just a 'good' driver, so what does that make him?

#16389 ivand911

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Posted 06 January 2012 - 13:03

Schumacher obviously isn't great enough then!

He is the only greatest driver in F1 at the moment. And ever. At the moment. And ever. Moment,ever,moment,ever. :clap: We are lucky to witness that.

Edited by ivand911, 06 January 2012 - 13:03.


#16390 cheapracer

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Posted 06 January 2012 - 13:04

I never said he had to win. A great driver would get many podiums and at least challenge for race wins. 5 podiums in 120 races is not great, its mediocre for a driver who has had good machinery his whole career.


When has Rosberg had a good car?

Did you not read his post? Rosberg (and MS) has had 6 superior cars in front of him the last 2 seasons.

A great driver can drive his car closer to the limit than others but he can not perform miracles.




#16391 Boing 2

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Posted 06 January 2012 - 17:47

He is the only greatest driver in F1 at the moment. And ever. At the moment. And ever. Moment,ever,moment,ever. :clap: We are lucky to witness that.


Most successful, not greatest :)


#16392 Poep

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Posted 06 January 2012 - 18:05

Most successful, not greatest :)

Most succesfull and greatest :)

#16393 cheapracer

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Posted 06 January 2012 - 18:28

Most successful, not greatest :)


I suggest you go find a dictionary.



#16394 jj2728

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Posted 06 January 2012 - 21:08

I never said he had to win. A great driver would get many podiums and at least challenge for race wins. 5 podiums in 120 races is not great, its mediocre for a driver who has had good machinery his whole career.


Another comment for the 'wtf' files......
And so you are saying that Schumacher is not a great or no longer a great driver.....

#16395 Group B

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Posted 06 January 2012 - 21:21

Another comment for the 'wtf' files......
And so you are saying that Schumacher is not a great or no longer a great driver.....

'no longer' is a fair point for discussion, but what 's hilarious are the clowns claiming we can judge how good MS was 20 years ago by how he's perfoming now.

#16396 spa08

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Posted 06 January 2012 - 22:04

'no longer' is a fair point for discussion, but what 's hilarious are the clowns claiming we can judge how good MS was 20 years ago by how he's perfoming now.


20 year ago he was the new crash kid. Take a look at magny cours 92, brilliant racecraft!! :rotfl:

#16397 Kubiccia

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Posted 06 January 2012 - 22:25

20 year ago he was the new crash kid. Take a look at magny cours 92, brilliant racecraft!! :rotfl:


Cherry picking in extreme. :rotfl:

You can see many more clown moments from the experienced Senna in 92,93,94.

Just because Schumacher beaten Senna many times in qualifying despite inferior car and even won races with a crappy Bennetton, you developed a hatred towards him.

Compare early years of Schumacher and early/todays' years of Nico and you see the difference in talent between both. Nico have always been a mediocre driver, never had the talent of a guy like Schumacher.

#16398 jj2728

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Posted 06 January 2012 - 22:59

Nico have always been a mediocre driver, never had the talent of a guy like Schumacher.


Yep, and that's why Mercedes has decided to keep him on.....keep a mediocre driver around so that Schumacher can look better...... :rolleyes:

#16399 Kubiccia

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Posted 06 January 2012 - 23:41

Yep, and that's why Mercedes has decided to keep him on.....keep a mediocre driver around so that Schumacher can look better...... :rolleyes:

He was picked because there is no real star available. Alonso, Hamilton, Vettel aren't options for Mercedes so Rosberg is quite the best available, even though he's still mediocre. He's not bad, he's a good mediocre driver.

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#16400 spa08

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Posted 07 January 2012 - 07:25

He was picked because there is no real star available. Alonso, Hamilton, Vettel aren't options for Mercedes so Rosberg is quite the best available, even though he's still mediocre. He's not bad, he's a good mediocre driver.


If a so called mediocre destroys Schumacher this much in qualifying, I'd hate to think what today's top drivers would do to him. :rotfl: :D