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#16351 ivand911

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Posted 04 January 2012 - 11:08

In qualifying both drivers are driving as fast as possible and there are no other sessions that would be faster than qualifying.

This is where you make your biggest mistake. Yeah some times MS was quicker in Free practice than Q. Go figure.


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#16352 baddog

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Posted 04 January 2012 - 11:24

It actually seems pretty hard for some people to get their heads around the idea that, on the whole, the takeaway from this season for a fan of Michael has been very positive and that he is looking good for next year. Sure he had qualifying issues, noone is going to disagree with that.. his race performances were such that the dedicated bashers are left going 'QUALY QUALY QUALY SHUTUP QUALY' which is very amusing.

Think about this.. even WITH definitively (and deserved) much better qualy position, Nico needed both better reliability and several accident induced DNFs to avoid being beaten handily on points. On saturday Nico was the best of the two, but the best raceday driver in the merc was Schumacher by a significant margin, I'm completely convinced of that.

#16353 spa08

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Posted 04 January 2012 - 11:50

This is where you make your biggest mistake. Yeah some times MS was quicker in Free practice than Q. Go figure.


Well if Michael can't replicate this performance on a Saturday it well and truly squashes the myth that he is a master at car setup and development

#16354 Szoelloe

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Posted 04 January 2012 - 14:40

I know everyone is bored like hell, but this qualy/qualy gap/ discussion is like a broken record. Nobody can deny the fact that MS was spanked in qualys. Fooling around with stats to soften that fact is useless. Fooling around with stats to rub in some salt is even more useless. NR is a superb qualifier, among other things. We'll see how MS fares in qualys next season, nothing else to do.

Edited by Szoelloe, 04 January 2012 - 14:40.


#16355 Tardis40

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Posted 04 January 2012 - 15:39

So what you're saying then is that if you cherry pick lap times from three different sessions as best suits your agenda, then you end up with the result you're looking for. ;)

As the saying goes: There are lies, damn lies, and then statistics.


LOL




#16356 Clark65

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Posted 04 January 2012 - 16:35

IsometricBacon, explain me this.
How many points did Rosberg got from qualifying in better position?

Schumacher had some issues with his speed in qualifying and it is was hurting his chances in races, no doubt about that.

But at the end of the season, difference between him and Rosberg was only 13 points. Where did that great advantage in qualifying disappeared?

And if you take a closer look in all race lap times, you will see that Schumacher usually had better race pace.


Sorry for my bad english.

Edited by Clark65, 04 January 2012 - 16:36.


#16357 Group B

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Posted 04 January 2012 - 16:48

IsometricBacon, explain me this.
How many points did Rosberg got from qualifying in better position?

Schumacher had some issues with his speed in qualifying and it is was hurting his chances in races, no doubt about that.

But at the end of the season, difference between him and Rosberg was only 13 points. Where did that great advantage in qualifying disappeared?

And if you take a closer look in all race lap times, you will see that Schumacher usually had better race pace.


Sorry for my bad english.

Your English is fine and your reasoning even better. Bashing MS on basis of qualifying is desperate behaviour by those painfully aware that he was as good or better on Sundays - by far the most important. The fact that the old man has actually improved releative to Rosberg despite being yet another year into his dotage is not what the usual suspects expected or wanted, so they're forced to hammer away where they can, which was his of course qualifying.

#16358 Group B

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Posted 04 January 2012 - 16:53

Well if Michael can't replicate this performance on a Saturday it well and truly squashes the myth that he is a master at car setup and development

:lol:


#16359 ivand911

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Posted 04 January 2012 - 17:32

This is how the things happen:
Ross: Michael please start every race at least 2-3 places behind Nico. Data shows you are to quick for him. We try to develop this boy not to destroy him. And the car is shit you know.
MS: OK.

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#16360 Tardis40

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Posted 04 January 2012 - 17:41

At least he won't have to deal with Petrov and Senna next year lol


#16361 spacekid

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Posted 04 January 2012 - 18:00

This is how the things happen:
Ross: Michael please start every race at least 2-3 places behind Nico. Data shows you are to quick for him. We try to develop this boy not to destroy him. And the car is shit you know.
MS: OK.


I know you love Michael too ivan, but really?

I've skim read the past few pages. Nico has clearly been better than Michael in quali. Does any more really need to be said on this? If the gap is about 0.35s then that seems about right to me.

I attribute this to 3 things, in order of importance

i) Nico is very quick. It would be interesting to see a 3rd driver trying to qualify the Merc to see where he ends up, but I have no problem saying Nico is faster in quali
ii) Michael has probably lost some speed, and the blown exhaust and tyres etc don't play to his strengths - but those are the regs etc so thats tough really
iii) A possible bias towards race setup for Michael and quali for Nico, but thats speculation based on race pace, I can't qualify that

Michael still has a lot to offer F1 racing in terms of entertainment and hopefully putting in strong drives (which he has had a few of) more consistently. But he is about 10 years past when most people have their peak, and I think that has to be reasonably and realistically taken into account, both in accepting his new career won't match the last one, but also in that in his last career he was a lot younger and frankly the two shouldn't be compared - either to use his current performance to discredit his previous achievements, or to keep saying 7xWDC in the face of having a clearly very quick team mate.

Still love the guy for the effort and the fact he never gives up in races.

#16362 tyker

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Posted 04 January 2012 - 18:08

[

Not so. According to F1 Stats the average qualifying gap btwn Rosberg & Schumacher was 0.366 seconds. They look pretty reliable to me. Hey, they even have a race by race graph.

link here



They are wrong because their system is flawed by taking the Q3 times instead of the quickest qualifying time, which massively distorts the real picture.

At Monza it counts Rosbergs Q3 times of 1:24.477, instead of his 1:23.335 in Q2, so instead of being 4 tenths quicker than Michael he was 9 tenths slower!
Same thing at Monaco, his best qualifying lap was 1 tenth slower than Michael but his much slower Q3 time was counted as 1.1 slower than Michael.

If we adjust these numbers properly, and measure their fastest laps, (their real speed) then it goes upto around half a second.



So what you're saying then is that if you cherry pick lap times from three different sessions as best suits your agenda, then you end up with the result you're looking for. ;)

As the saying goes: There are lies, damn lies, and then statistics.



but Q2 is not about the fastest lap but about the is good enough for Q3 lap.

My method was simply to take the fastest time in qualifying where both drivers took part, i remember not using Monaco because Rosberg wasn't able to post a representative time because of the red flag caused by Perez

#16363 ivand911

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Posted 04 January 2012 - 18:33

At least he won't have to deal with Petrov and Senna next year lol

It is not sure thing yet, and there will be other new kids on the block. Track hazards.


#16364 Boing 2

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Posted 04 January 2012 - 18:49

It is not sure thing yet, and there will be other new kids on the block. Track hazards.


Schumacher himself has stated the majority of his collisions with Petrov were his own fault, don't let that get in your way though. :wave:

#16365 Tardis40

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Posted 04 January 2012 - 20:23

It is not sure thing yet, and there will be other new kids on the block. Track hazards.


When Michael came back into the sport is was like he was a marked man. Every chump on the block wanted to "make his bones" by overtaking the 7xwdc. For a while it was Petrov getting in his way. Then when he faded Senna took his place. With the exception of Barrchello (for obvious reasons) you didn't see any of the experienced drivers causing him problems. That's because experienced drivers don't do unexpected or reckless moves.

If either Petrov or Senna do get a ride this year it will be in a car that is so slow they won't be causing anyone at the front a problem.


#16366 Boing 2

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Posted 04 January 2012 - 20:37

When Michael came back into the sport is was like he was a marked man. Every chump on the block wanted to "make his bones" by overtaking the 7xwdc. For a while it was Petrov getting in his way. Then when he faded Senna took his place. With the exception of Barrchello (for obvious reasons) you didn't see any of the experienced drivers causing him problems. That's because experienced drivers don't do unexpected or reckless moves.

If either Petrov or Senna do get a ride this year it will be in a car that is so slow they won't be causing anyone at the front a problem.



When did Barrichello cause him problems? I can remember Schumacher nearly killing him in Hungary but I can't recall anything Rubens has done?



#16367 Kubiccia

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Posted 04 January 2012 - 23:57

Schumacher was indeed a great qualifier back in his day,in the 1998 season,for instance,he managed to put that crap car on pole several times.In the early 2000´s he couldn´t make so many poles because of the Michelin tyres besides the fact that Williams had a special engine that BMW made only for qualifying that had plus 80 hp.

But IMO he lost around 1 sec of raw speed

:up:

Uhm, Jim Clark had 33 poles out of 72 starts...

so what? Schumacher took about 10 years to have the best car(from late 91, to 2000). During those period, he had most of the time 2nd/3rd best car and eventually a car matching the fastest for some ocasions. When he finally had the clear dominant car in 2001 onwards, Michelin made the difference in qualifyings.

Well if Michael can't replicate this performance on a Saturday it well and truly squashes the myth that he is a master at car setup and development

I never believed that.

I know everyone is bored like hell, but this qualy/qualy gap/ discussion is like a broken record. Nobody can deny the fact that MS was spanked in qualys. Fooling around with stats to soften that fact is useless. Fooling around with stats to rub in some salt is even more useless. NR is a superb qualifier, among other things. We'll see how MS fares in qualys next season, nothing else to do.

worse than 2011, as he's just getting older.

In 2010 he beaten Nico in Barcelona, Turkey and Spa fair and square, I mean, he really was faster than Nico and no cherry picking is involved. He had some technical troubles is some sessions and in others he was trashed by Nico.

A year older in 2011, Schumacher never really beaten Nico in qualifying. In Monaco, Nico didn't set a proper time in Q3.

#16368 Craven Morehead

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Posted 05 January 2012 - 02:07

You are right it is, but this is a discussion about raw pace, not qualifying grid positions, and raw pace is judged on fastest laps and nothing else. Nobody reasonable would argue against this.


Backtracking a bit more are we? :lol: The discussion was clearly about qualifying pace, wherein you claimed (incorrectly) that Nico was half a second faster than Michael. Here's a few of your posts:

Turkey qualifying he was 9 tenths slower. There were a few other races where he was around 1 second a lap slower. My point remains even if its 0.5 which was the average.


They are wrong because their system is flawed by taking the Q3 times instead of the quickest qualifying time, which massively distorts the real picture.

At Monza it counts Rosbergs Q3 times of 1:24.477, instead of his 1:23.335 in Q2, so instead of being 4 tenths quicker than Michael he was 9 tenths slower!
Same thing at Monaco, his best qualifying lap was 1 tenth slower than Michael but his much slower Q3 time was counted as 1.1 slower than Michael.

If we adjust these numbers properly, and measure their fastest laps, (their real speed) then it goes upto around half a second.


No I am saying just pick the fastest lap time the driver was capable of in qualifying. What session it happened in is totally irrelevant for this exercise. Anything else would actually be cherry picking.


I am not suggesting to only use q2. I am suggesting to simply use the fastest qualifying lap. Either way its not important if Michael was 0.37 or 0.47 slower, that was just a desperate attempt by a Schumacher fan to try to side step the issue at hand. Point is he was much slower than Rosberg in qualifying.


In qualifying both drivers are driving as fast as possible and there are no other sessions that would be faster than qualifying.


No, you just select the fastest qualifying time. Simple, it works for every excuse you can invent to try and avoid the truth.


If you want to talk about pace, lets talk about race pace. The trouble is Schumacher's race pace was generally better than Nico's, so that won't work for you. I guess you're left with cherry picking times from various sessions then.

Incidentally your whole analysis leaves a lot to be desired. Firstly, you absolutely cannot rely on drivers going as fast as possible during qualifying. There's lots of times when that's not the case. Secondly, if you pick random times from various sessions, you've eliminated the common denominator, as conditions are constantly changing. If you really insist on comparing Q pace, then each session must be taken as its own sample. Otherwise you are comparing apples with oranges. Thirdly, according to the rules Q1 & Q2 times are wiped out for those who make it to Q3, so its pointless to include them in any discussion, as they count for exactly nothing.

BTW, fastest laps don't account for any points, look at Raikkonen's final season. A bunch of fastest laps, but nowhere in the Championship, to the point where he was ousted by Ferrari.

Bottom line: Schumi was generally slower than Nico in qualifying, but not nearly to the extent you were claiming. Why not just accept this and move on?

Edited by Craven Morehead, 05 January 2012 - 02:11.


#16369 Szoelloe

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Posted 05 January 2012 - 02:15

:up:


so what? Schumacher took about 10 years to have the best car(from late 91, to 2000). During those period, he had most of the time 2nd/3rd best car and eventually a car matching the fastest for some ocasions. When he finally had the clear dominant car in 2001 onwards, Michelin made the difference in qualifyings.


I never believed that.


worse than 2011, as he's just getting older.

In 2010 he beaten Nico in Barcelona, Turkey and Spa fair and square, I mean, he really was faster than Nico and no cherry picking is involved. He had some technical troubles is some sessions and in others he was trashed by Nico.

A year older in 2011, Schumacher never really beaten Nico in qualifying. In Monaco, Nico didn't set a proper time in Q3.



yaye mate. That's about the time they started with extreme engine mapping. You are so sure he will be worse, and I am not, but whatever. We will have to wait until next season.

Edited by Szoelloe, 05 January 2012 - 02:16.


#16370 Raelene

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Posted 05 January 2012 - 02:26

Why? What difference is that going to make?
People are gonna cherry pick this and that ad finitum to suit their agendas....



did you not see the rolling eyes.....you just proved my point completely...

#16371 Paco

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Posted 05 January 2012 - 02:28

In qualifying both drivers are driving as fast as possible and there are no other sessions that would be faster than qualifying.


That is way oversimplistic view of modern day qualifying.. especially in the 2011 season. Be nice if the was the case like in the early 90's when that was the case.

Between 3 qualifying sessions, tire strategy and management and if you know you're only as good 7-10th with a hope and prayer into 5-6.. making compromises to all out speed for longer tire durability and race pace when you're at the backend of the qualifying session 3.. means all out pace not exactly as important as maybe years gone by. Then throw in DRS which means if you qualifying 8 vs. 7 but you have DRS to help make the pass, you can feel better about doing a setup that conserves the tire or engine just that extra bit as you can open your wing to get passed the guy in front of you..

So.. no... in 2011 positions 6-10 qualifying.. it's not all about going as fast as possible. Unless you're up for pole in q3.. it's more about compromises then all out speed even when comparing team mates. If MS had kept his nose more clean and avoided so many of those avoidable shunts, he'd proven the above more convincingly.

Edited by Paco, 05 January 2012 - 02:39.


#16372 IsometricBacon

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Posted 05 January 2012 - 05:31

Backtracking a bit more are we? :lol: The discussion was clearly about qualifying pace, wherein you claimed (incorrectly) that Nico was half a second faster than Michael. Here's a few of your posts:


How am I back tracking, when I am reinforcing that the discussion is about qualifying pace rather than grid position? My claims were correct when you stopped cherry picking and just took their fastest qualifying laps. Feel free to suggest a better method to measure qualifying pace, than the fastest qualifying lap.

if you want to talk about pace, lets talk about race pace. The trouble is Schumacher's race pace was generally better than Nico's, so that won't work for you. I guess you're left with cherry picking times from various sessions then.


No not various sessions, just the entire 1 hour qualifying.I don't have a problem with race pace but the problem is that its much harder to judge because of so many other factors, and I think its very hard to really compare their race pace, although from memory whenever I looked at thir live timing Michael was almost always slower. under equal conditions.

Incidentally your whole analysis leaves a lot to be desired. Firstly, you absolutely cannot rely on drivers going as fast as possible during qualifying. There's lots of times when that's not the case. Secondly, if you pick random times from various sessions, you've eliminated the common denominator, as conditions are constantly changing. If you really insist on comparing Q pace, then each session must be taken as its own sample. Otherwise you are comparing apples with oranges. Thirdly, according to the rules Q1 & Q2 times are wiped out for those who make it to Q3, so its pointless to include them in any discussion, as they count for exactly nothing.


Wow, where do I start.

1. You can rely on drivers going as fast as they can in qualifying more than any other session.
2.There is no reason that a driver would not go as fast as possible in qualifying because that is the point of qualifying. It never happens, unless they don't bother setting a time at all to save tyres.
3. There is only a 10 minute difference between Q2 and Q3, which is not enough time for conditions to change.
4. For the purpose of final grid position, Q2 times do not count for anythinf, but this is a discussion about qualifying pace, not grid position, so those times are absolutely valid and important.

BTW, fastest laps don't account for any points, look at Raikkonen's final season. A bunch of fastest laps, but nowhere in the Championship, to the point where he was ousted by Ferrari.


Nowhere did I mention fastest race laps.


Bottom line: Schumi was generally slower than Nico in qualifying, but not nearly to the extent you were claiming. Why not just accept this and move on?


I am not claiming anything, the numbers and facts speak for themselves, and prove Michael was around 0.5 slower on average in qualifying than Nico.

#16373 IsometricBacon

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Posted 05 January 2012 - 05:41

That is way oversimplistic view of modern day qualifying.. especially in the 2011 season. Be nice if the was the case like in the early 90's when that was the case.

Between 3 qualifying sessions, tire strategy and management and if you know you're only as good 7-10th with a hope and prayer into 5-6.. making compromises to all out speed for longer tire durability and race pace when you're at the backend of the qualifying session 3.. means all out pace not exactly as important as maybe years gone by. Then throw in DRS which means if you qualifying 8 vs. 7 but you have DRS to help make the pass, you can feel better about doing a setup that conserves the tire or engine just that extra bit as you can open your wing to get passed the guy in front of you..

So.. no... in 2011 positions 6-10 qualifying.. it's not all about going as fast as possible. Unless you're up for pole in q3.. it's more about compromises then all out speed even when comparing team mates. If MS had kept his nose more clean and avoided so many of those avoidable shunts, he'd proven the above more convincingly.



You are basically claiming Michael was the only mercedes driver who preffered to set up his car for race trim and sacrifice qualifying speed. There is absolutely no evidence of this at all, and considering Michael was often left scratching his head and openly said he was puzzled at the gap to Rosberg, it's safe to say your theory is not true.

#16374 ivand911

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Posted 05 January 2012 - 07:49

OK, MS have the most overtakes this year, so I think it is somehow acceptable he have the most crashes(not sure about the most thing). Lewis was pretty close.

Edited by ivand911, 05 January 2012 - 08:01.


#16375 jj2728

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Posted 05 January 2012 - 10:20

did you not see the rolling eyes.....you just proved my point completely...


Oh jeez.....so sorry to have missed the rolling eyes...... :rolleyes:

#16376 DutchCruijff

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Posted 05 January 2012 - 10:32

Not sure if you guys noticed this on the driver preferences/styles thread but here's a good article from '03:- http://www.scribd.co...-vs-Barrichello

1. The speed differentials are amazing i.e. 0.3s heading into Suzuka turn one
2. His seemingly lackadaisical mindset in the race thinking about what position his brother is in or what's for dinner? :lol:

#16377 ivand911

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Posted 05 January 2012 - 11:11

Great article. Explains a lot of stuff for 2010 and 2011. For him never lifting the throttle and what car he prefer. Things that he didn't have in 2010 and 2011. He was obliged to lift this year. And he was still fast. And some people say he can't adapt? He is adapting, but I think he don't have the necessary people around him, to do their part. I think 2012 rules will help him to use again his favoured style. Just hope the car will have his favoured characteristics(incisive front end), fingers crossed. The rest is easy. If this was MS not feeling comfortable , I don't want to think what will happen when he feels comfortable in the car.

Anyone visiting Barcelona 22-24 February(F1 tests)? I am going there.

Edited by ivand911, 05 January 2012 - 11:18.


#16378 Szoelloe

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Posted 05 January 2012 - 11:47

Great article. Explains a lot of stuff for 2010 and 2011. For him never lifting the throttle and what car he prefer. Things that he didn't have in 2010 and 2011. He was obliged to lift this year. And he was still fast. And some people say he can't adapt? He is adapting, but I think he don't have the necessary people around him, to do their part. I think 2012 rules will help him to use again his favoured style. Just hope the car will have his favoured characteristics(incisive front end), fingers crossed. The rest is easy. If this was MS not feeling comfortable , I don't want to think what will happen when he feels comfortable in the car.

Anyone visiting Barcelona 22-24 February(F1 tests)? I am going there.


Yeah, his drivng style was always extremely aggressive with the throttle, and yes, 2012 tech rules do put things right in that aspect. We will see.

Envy you, I can't, unfortunately. If you have a smartphone, could you tweet, or upload some pictures? Or, as a matter of fact, anykind of info would be more than welcome from the test, I think.
.

Edited by Szoelloe, 05 January 2012 - 11:53.


#16379 ivand911

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Posted 05 January 2012 - 11:55

Envy you, I can't, unfortunately. If you have a smartphone, could you tweet, or upload some pictures? Or, as a matter of fact, anykind of info would be more than welcome from the test, I think.
.

I will post link to my pictures later. Other things depend from internet(price, availability). And I admit, I am not very good in recognising when one car is good or bad. :rolleyes: I will miss the first day(the new car), but I hope to see MS in action (more than the other driver). So, I hope Nico will drive the first day. Hope for the best weather too.

Edited by ivand911, 05 January 2012 - 11:56.


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#16380 Szoelloe

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Posted 05 January 2012 - 12:05

I will post link to my pictures later. Other things depend from internet(price, availability). And I admit, I am not very good in recognising when one car is good or bad. :rolleyes: I will miss the first day(the new car), but I hope to see MS in action (more than the other driver). So, I hope Nico will drive the first day. Hope for the best weather too.


Thanks for that. Recognizing is not that hard, you will see all participating cars independently, and following each other too at matching speeds, you will see the behavior differences/similarities at once. Yeah, weather, well that would be important to be acceptable. And Barcelona is just truly a fantastic place, really.



#16381 salamin

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Posted 05 January 2012 - 12:09

Yeah, his drivng style was always extremely aggressive with the throttle, and yes, 2012 tech rules do put things right in that aspect. We will see.

Envy you, I can't, unfortunately. If you have a smartphone, could you tweet, or upload some pictures? Or, as a matter of fact, anykind of info would be more than welcome from the test, I think.
.


could you explain why exactly ?

#16382 ivand911

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Posted 05 January 2012 - 12:25

could you explain why exactly ?

I will try. No blown diffuser, he can again use throttle in the corner. With BD he can't press the throttle(have to lift). If he press it, there will be no blowing on diffuser(the program extent). And engine programs didn't like it. There was case where engineer tell him on radio not to press the throttle in the corner.

Edited by ivand911, 05 January 2012 - 12:28.


#16383 salamin

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Posted 05 January 2012 - 12:29

I will try. No blown diffuser, he can again use throttle in the corner. With BD he can't press the throttle(have to lift). If he press it, there will be no blowing on diffuser. And engine programs didn't like it. There was case where engineer tell him on radio not to press the throttle in the corner.


Yeah, I remember that radio message as well, and the reasoning sounds logical.
But what about 2010, did they used some kind of off-throttle engine mapping as well ?

#16384 Tardis40

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Posted 05 January 2012 - 12:35

2010,2011 makes no difference. MGP was the fourth place team both years. No possibility of beating any of the three leaders. The car finished exactly where it belonged. Nothing the drivers could do about it.



#16385 ivand911

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Posted 05 January 2012 - 12:36

Yeah, I remember that radio message as well, and the reasoning sounds logical.
But what about 2010, did they used some kind of off-throttle engine mapping as well ?

Don't know about lifting the throttle in 2010. Did he do it then or not, I don't know. What program they used. Then the car was to understeery for his liking. It was mess car, but still better than W02 comparing to the others. Also, driving style depend from the car, maybe 2010 car was not good for his throttle driving. He wasn't sure in the car. Front end was not pointy enough. Also tyres in 2010.
I hope next year he can return to his driving style. I hope car and engine electronics will permit it .

Edited by ivand911, 05 January 2012 - 12:52.


#16386 Szoelloe

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Posted 05 January 2012 - 12:40

could you explain why exactly ?



Read the article(if you haven't yet), its old, but very valid about how he drives. I have posted this once years ago too if I remember correctly. The EBD and engine mapping restricts the driver's throttle input to zero during cornering, and MS has always used the thottle as means of car control during braking. Look at that telemetry its very telling. With the extreme engine mapping , or cold blowing, if you wish, the throttle is controlled by the ECU during slow/medium corners. It effectively fxxxed all throttle/braking drivers IMHO. But usually I get the heat for saying that, its considered to be an excuse. Its not. Somebody here posted already that MS was warned several times on radio not to use the throttle when cornering.

#16387 salamin

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Posted 05 January 2012 - 12:56

Sounds reasonable, no doubt, but according to that version MS should have been better in 2010 ... OTOH there are too many factors apart from off-throttle engine map *(understeering car in 2010 like Ivan mentioned, tyres, ..)
So let's hope for a better year and thanks for the explanation Szőllő :wave:

#16388 Szoelloe

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Posted 05 January 2012 - 13:13

Sounds reasonable, no doubt, but according to that version MS should have been better in 2010 ... OTOH there are too many factors apart from off-throttle engine map *(understeering car in 2010 like Ivan mentioned, tyres, ..)
So let's hope for a better year and thanks for the explanation Szőllő :wave:


Youre welcome. :) As to 2010, if you look at those qualys, MS and NR were quite even until they started their own extreme engine mapping development. I am not saying MS was actually beating NR on a regular basis, but there was no .6-8s diff between them at all. One thing seems to be sure, though. NR copes with understeer better than MS, as I see it. It is not very dissimilar to how for instance JB drives, but I could be wrong on that one. Eager to see how 2012 pans out, should be very entertaining and close between them.


#16389 DutchCruijff

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Posted 05 January 2012 - 14:48

I will post link to my pictures later. Other things depend from internet(price, availability). And I admit, I am not very good in recognising when one car is good or bad. :rolleyes: I will miss the first day(the new car), but I hope to see MS in action (more than the other driver). So, I hope Nico will drive the first day. Hope for the best weather too.

You're traveling from Bulgaria (am I right) to Spain for a couple of days purely for the F1 testing?

Utter commitment.

#16390 ivand911

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Posted 05 January 2012 - 17:55

You're traveling from Bulgaria (am I right) to Spain for a couple of days purely for the F1 testing?
Utter commitment.

Yes. From Bucharest which is closer to my Bulgarian home town. Two way tickets staggering price of 60 pounds.  ;) So , it is not so bad. My brother is coming from Cardiff. I will not stay all 8 hours on the track, my brother can't handle it. :p I think it is good value for the money. Especially when cars make around 80-100 laps per day. Much more than in Friday and Saturday(GP weekends). I was thinking about Jerez, but it is hard to get there and more expensive, so I settled for Barcelonaaaa. :clap:

Edited by ivand911, 05 January 2012 - 18:00.


#16391 Tardis40

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Posted 05 January 2012 - 19:01

Yes. From Bucharest which is closer to my Bulgarian home town. Two way tickets staggering price of 60 pounds. ;) So , it is not so bad. My brother is coming from Cardiff. I will not stay all 8 hours on the track, my brother can't handle it. :p I think it is good value for the money. Especially when cars make around 80-100 laps per day. Much more than in Friday and Saturday(GP weekends). I was thinking about Jerez, but it is hard to get there and more expensive, so I settled for Barcelonaaaa. :clap:


Don't forget your camera :)


#16392 F1Champion

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Posted 05 January 2012 - 19:16

Great article, I have read it a couple of years ago but it was nice to read again as it links to his current comments. He needs a strong front end which the W02 didn't have and the W03 needs to have, not just for Michael but Nico as well. The off throttle blowing should allow his dual use of the pedals again, hopefully(!), but I have a niggling feeling that off throttle blowing will be back in some way.

OT - I would really like to read telemetry of any driver this year with a car with EBD to see the difference.

Edited by F1Champion, 05 January 2012 - 19:19.


#16393 Kubiccia

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Posted 05 January 2012 - 19:40

Even though understeer is not ideal for Schumi, he coped greatly with it in 96 Ferrari. Imo, the lack of speed is age-related more than anything rather it's not being able to use throttle or understeer or tires....

Have any of you ever watched Schumacher's onboard qualifying lap in Estoril 91? I have never seem Schumacher drive absolutely on the limit, like he did in that lap, since his return. I Think the best of it is gone, unfortunately. But it's good that we still can watch the old man even slower.

#16394 hammibal

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Posted 05 January 2012 - 20:27

That is way oversimplistic view of modern day qualifying.. especially in the 2011 season. Be nice if the was the case like in the early 90's when that was the case.

Between 3 qualifying sessions, tire strategy and management and if you know you're only as good 7-10th with a hope and prayer into 5-6.. making compromises to all out speed for longer tire durability and race pace when you're at the backend of the qualifying session 3.. means all out pace not exactly as important as maybe years gone by. Then throw in DRS which means if you qualifying 8 vs. 7 but you have DRS to help make the pass, you can feel better about doing a setup that conserves the tire or engine just that extra bit as you can open your wing to get passed the guy in front of you..

So.. no... in 2011 positions 6-10 qualifying.. it's not all about going as fast as possible. Unless you're up for pole in q3.. it's more about compromises then all out speed even when comparing team mates. If MS had kept his nose more clean and avoided so many of those avoidable shunts, he'd proven the above more convincingly.

It is what it is, Schumacher's poor qualifying meant he had to take more risks in the races, whilst Rosberg qualified the car where it should be and ended up scoring more points, its always better to qualify well, ask Vettel

#16395 George Costanza

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Posted 05 January 2012 - 21:17

Even though understeer is not ideal for Schumi, he coped greatly with it in 96 Ferrari. Imo, the lack of speed is age-related more than anything rather it's not being able to use throttle or understeer or tires....

Have any of you ever watched Schumacher's onboard qualifying lap in Estoril 91? I have never seem Schumacher drive absolutely on the limit, like he did in that lap, since his return. I Think the best of it is gone, unfortunately. But it's good that we still can watch the old man even slower.



1996 was vintage; it would be silly to expect him to be on that level again.

#16396 Urawa

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Posted 06 January 2012 - 11:10

"I know the team better and I am more involved... at first I was a little rusty. Things are better now and I am convinced Mercedes and I will succeed," he is quoted as saying by Gazzetta dello Sport.

"We need another small step and then we can make it to the top."

http://www1.skysport...t-on-Schumacher

#16397 krea

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Posted 06 January 2012 - 11:31

I think it's still pretty impressive that a 43 years old man is just 13 points (and this only because of some unlucky moments) behind a Rosberg who is a great driver.



#16398 IsometricBacon

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Posted 06 January 2012 - 11:33

I think it's still pretty impressive that a 43 years old man is just 13 points (and this only because of some unlucky moments) behind a Rosberg who is a great driver.


How can he be a great driver with only 5 podiums in 120 odd starts?

#16399 krea

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Posted 06 January 2012 - 11:38

How can he be a great driver with only 5 podiums in 120 odd starts?


He never drove a racing winning car but he showed great driving skills in all his F1 years.



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#16400 IsometricBacon

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Posted 06 January 2012 - 11:42

He never drove a racing winning car but he showed great driving skills in all his F1 years.


Great drivers don't need race winning cars to have far far better results than that. That is why they are great. You do not need to be a great driver to have great results in a race winning car.