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#16401 Craven Morehead

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Posted 07 January 2012 - 07:45

Rosberg's always had single lap pace. IIRC, he recorded fastest lap in his very first GP, and qualified third in his second. This in the '06 Williams, which was a pretty average car overall. I'd say that was pretty impressive. He stood on the podium twice as a Williams driver. I would expect he's at a very high level personally at this point in his career. Honestly, I'd expect him to out-qualify any 42 year old guy, even Michael Schumacher.

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#16402 spa08

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Posted 07 January 2012 - 07:47

Cherry picking in extreme. :rotfl:

You can see many more clown moments from the experienced Senna in 92,93,94.

Just because Schumacher beaten Senna many times in qualifying despite inferior car and even won races with a crappy Bennetton, you developed a hatred towards him.

Compare early years of Schumacher and early/todays' years of Nico and you see the difference in talent between both. Nico have always been a mediocre driver, never had the talent of a guy like Schumacher.


Imola, Monaco, monza want me to carry on?? :rotfl:

#16403 baddog

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Posted 07 January 2012 - 08:19

Rosberg's always had single lap pace. IIRC, he recorded fastest lap in his very first GP, and qualified third in his second. This in the '06 Williams, which was a pretty average car overall. I'd say that was pretty impressive. He stood on the podium twice as a Williams driver.

I try to say this but people just say 'schumi fan excuses' which is so very unfair to Nico, who won many fans at Williams.

#16404 cheapracer

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Posted 07 January 2012 - 13:58

Nico have always been a mediocre driver, never had the talent of a guy like Schumacher.


I think that one might come back to bite you on the ass in a few years time.


20 year ago he was the new crash kid. Take a look at magny cours 92, brilliant racecraft!! :rotfl:


Yep, won more than 10% of Grand Prix ever run in it's 50 year+ history by crashing a lot.

You got any idea what your posts look like to most people cringing at them?

Imola, Monaco, monza want me to carry on?? :rotfl:


Ummm, No? - but that's not going to stop you so I guess "ignore" world here you come....

FWIW I don't ignore guys like Slate Gray because he actually tries to put up reasoning and debate into his posts rather than flat out trolling or worse, sheer ignorant idiocy.


#16405 Apollonius

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Posted 07 January 2012 - 18:27

I suggest you go find a dictionary.



Let's just end the debate and call him the best F1 driver in history because he is - fact.

#16406 ivand911

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Posted 07 January 2012 - 19:36

Let's just end the debate and call him the best F1 driver in history because he is - fact.

:up:

#16407 jj2728

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Posted 07 January 2012 - 21:29

Let's just end the debate and call him the best F1 driver in history because he is - fact.


There are more than a few people who will disagree with you and I am one of them.
Once again, different eras cannot be compared.
If you mean his stats, then I would agree that his stats are the best, but that does NOT necessarily mean that he is the best driver ever.


#16408 Group B

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Posted 07 January 2012 - 21:35

There are more than a few people who will disagree with you and I am one of them.
Once again, different eras cannot be compared.
If you mean his stats, then I would agree that his stats are the best, but that does NOT necessarily mean that he is the best driver ever.

Absolutely true. But that said I'll bet my left bollock that the MS of 15 years ago would've lost very few qualifying sessions to Nico.

#16409 Sakae

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Posted 07 January 2012 - 22:21

There are more than a few people who will disagree with you and I am one of them.
Once again, different eras cannot be compared.
If you mean his stats, then I would agree that his stats are the best, but that does NOT necessarily mean that he is the best driver ever.

Educate us how is racing greatness measured.

#16410 ClockworkRacing

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Posted 07 January 2012 - 22:34

The 1998 Schumacher would put a whole second down Nico´s throat,that´s for sure! :smoking:

But regardless that,NR is a very good and solid driver,no doubts about it.

#16411 jj2728

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Posted 08 January 2012 - 00:10

Educate us how is racing greatness measured.


You want education? Then read some history about this sport and then read my post again.

#16412 jj2728

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Posted 08 January 2012 - 00:11

Absolutely true. But that said I'll bet my left bollock that the MS of 15 years ago would've lost very few qualifying sessions to Nico.


I'll bet you that it would be very close.....

#16413 spa08

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Posted 08 January 2012 - 00:14

The 1998 Schumacher would put a whole second down Nico´s throat,that´s for sure! :smoking:

But regardless that,NR is a very good and solid driver,no doubts about it.


I like how you know for sure that Schumacher would beat rosberg by a second in his so called prime

#16414 spa08

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Posted 08 January 2012 - 00:15

I'll bet you that it would be very close.....


:up:

#16415 Szoelloe

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Posted 08 January 2012 - 01:56

I'll bet you that it would be very close.....



It is funny how NR is not getting the respect he should.

#16416 Sakae

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Posted 08 January 2012 - 03:19

You want education? Then read some history about this sport and then read my post again.

Based on your evasivness it appears that you have no clue what it is you are talking about, do you? History is full of opinions, mostly subjective, and then there are statistics; problem is, you do not like statistics - you prefer an empty argument instead.

Edited by Sakae, 08 January 2012 - 03:19.


#16417 George Costanza

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Posted 08 January 2012 - 04:59

The 1998 Schumacher would put a whole second down Nico´s throat,that´s for sure! :smoking:

But regardless that,NR is a very good and solid driver,no doubts about it.



No driver in the history of F1, except for 1988-1991 Ayrton Senna, could match 1996-2000 Schumacher. Given the cars he drove for those seasons, which was not exactly the quickest car nor the most reliable car from 1996-2000 (McLaren had the faster car in 1998-1999-2000, but I'd say by 2000, Ferrari was the better package very slighty, in 1997, Williams was the better car absolutely).

Edited by George Costanza, 08 January 2012 - 05:02.


#16418 George Costanza

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Posted 08 January 2012 - 05:04

I like how you know for sure that Schumacher would beat rosberg by a second in his so called prime



Given how fast Mika was, I hope no one thinks Nico is as quick as Mika, I think Schu would be indeed 0.7 to 1 second faster on some situations to Nico.




#16419 Kubiccia

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Posted 08 January 2012 - 05:55

If a so called mediocre destroys Schumacher this much in qualifying, I'd hate to think what today's top drivers would do to him. :rotfl: :D

top guys would put 1,5s in some ocasions.

Imola, Monaco, monza want me to carry on?? :rotfl:

call him crashkid by that? :lol:

I'll bet you that it would be very close.....

highly unlikely, to not say impossible.

No driver in the history of F1, except for 1988-1991 Ayrton Senna, could match 1996-2000 Schumacher. Given the cars he drove for those seasons, which was not exactly the quickest car nor the most reliable car from 1996-2000 (McLaren had the faster car in 1998-1999-2000, but I'd say by 2000, Ferrari was the better package very slighty, in 1997, Williams was the better car absolutely).

Given how fast Mika was, I hope no one thinks Nico is as quick as Mika, I think Schu would be indeed 0.7 to 1 second faster on some situations to Nico.

finally some sense here :up:

Unfortunately we can see Schumi X Massa again because that would prove how Schumi got much slower.

Edited by ForeverF1, 08 January 2012 - 06:26.


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#16420 Tardis40

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Posted 08 January 2012 - 06:16

Rosberg will get respect when he does something other than lead Friday Practice. At the moment he's still 91 wins behind Michael.



#16421 xlr8

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Posted 08 January 2012 - 07:00

I find it hard to understand how can people compare a 7 time WDC and arguably the best driver in F1 history with a driver like Rosberg who haven't won anything yet.

Edited by xlr8, 08 January 2012 - 07:39.


#16422 cheapracer

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Posted 08 January 2012 - 08:06

You want education? Then read some history about this sport and then read my post again.


No - you're the one being pompous, you tell us why you know more than we do and why MS isn't the best.

Guys, no need to beat Rosberg down just because less than valued posters are being irritating, he is pretty darn good - Chris Amon, Martin Brundle, Derek Warick, Stefan Johansson and a few other good drivers never won a GP either, Webber only started recently and Button had only one win under his belt for 10 years.




#16423 spa08

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Posted 08 January 2012 - 08:14

Given how fast Mika was, I hope no one thinks Nico is as quick as Mika, I think Schu would be indeed 0.7 to 1 second faster on some situations to Nico.


This makes no sense at all, bringing mika into the discussion doesn't prove one little thing

Edited by spa08, 08 January 2012 - 08:14.


#16424 Szoelloe

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Posted 08 January 2012 - 11:14

Given how fast Mika was, I hope no one thinks Nico is as quick as Mika, I think Schu would be indeed 0.7 to 1 second faster on some situations to Nico.


:rotfl:

This makes no sense at all, bringing mika into the discussion doesn't prove one little thing


Actually it does. That is why the post quoted above you is funny. MH was fighting in the midfield for 8-9 years until he surfaced on top, and finally earned himself the reputation he has today. He was judged about the same way as NR is now. I just thought that somebody who is throwing about MH's name in this context would know that, but obviously not.


#16425 Egor

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Posted 08 January 2012 - 11:21

:)

Posted Image

Edited by Egor, 08 January 2012 - 11:21.


#16426 spa08

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Posted 08 January 2012 - 11:24

:rotfl:



Actually it does. That is why the post quoted above you is funny. MH was fighting in the midfield for 8-9 years until he surfaced on top, and finally earned himself the reputation he has today. He was judged about the same way as NR is now. I just thought that somebody who is throwing about MH's name in this context would know that, but obviously not.


What as nico having the same reputation as mika got to do with arguments that nico would be competitive with Schumacher in his so called prime?

#16427 ivand911

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Posted 08 January 2012 - 12:17

I find it hard to understand how can people compare a 7 time WDC and arguably the best driver in F1 history with a driver like Rosberg who haven't won anything yet.

Me too. And I think Nico is very good driver. Not worst than Alonso, Lewis and Vettel in qualifying. When he get car capable of winning, then we will know how good he is.


#16428 spa08

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Posted 08 January 2012 - 12:34

Me too. And I think Nico is very good driver. Not worst than Alonso, Lewis and Vettel in qualifying. When he get car capable of winning, then we will know how good he is.


To win you need a good car that is capable of it, unless you have some good fortune. This day and age it is very hard to luck into a win as cars these days are virtually bullet proof

Edited by spa08, 08 January 2012 - 12:35.


#16429 xlr8

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Posted 08 January 2012 - 12:52

Me too. And I think Nico is very good driver. Not worst than Alonso, Lewis and Vettel in qualifying. When he get car capable of winning, then we will know how good he is.


Exactly. Nico is very good and certainly not a mediocre driver as many people thinks. There is no doubt he has proven himself in the lower/midfield teams and gained a lot of experience while still being quite young and he even managed a few podiums in 2010. But great qualifier? don't think so. In qualifying Niko will always put the midfield car where it should be. But i don't think he would be getting pole in a top car. Because qualifying in 4th row under no pressure and qualifying in front row under extreme pressure is two completely different thing. And he does tend to make mistakes under pressure. And he also lacks race craft.

Edited by xlr8, 08 January 2012 - 12:55.


#16430 Concorde

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Posted 08 January 2012 - 13:02

Me too. And I think Nico is very good driver. Not worst than Alonso, Lewis and Vettel in qualifying. When he get car capable of winning, then we will know how good he is.

Yep Nico is a very good driver. Great over 1 lap, needs a little more race craft and commercially very interesting as very presentable and fluent in 5 languages.

#16431 sharo

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Posted 08 January 2012 - 13:02

No doubt Nico is fast, constant and makes few mistakes. One thing I haven't personally seen in him is passion, the spark that attracts your attention to someone among a number of more or less equal. Michael had this spark as soon as he appeared on the grid.
There's even controversy of different magnitude accompanying every champion. For that matter I saw the same spark in Lewis, but it seems he couldn't stand up to the challenge, maybe because of the bordering with hysteria publicity he got from the media and fan base.

#16432 handel

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Posted 08 January 2012 - 13:16

Yep Nico is a very good driver. Great over 1 lap, needs a little more race craft and commercially very interesting as very presentable and fluent in 5 languages.


Out of interest, over the past season can you (or anyone on-thread) recall any particular examples of his lack of racecraft?

#16433 Concorde

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Posted 08 January 2012 - 13:23

Out of interest, over the past season can you (or anyone on-thread) recall any particular examples of his lack of racecraft?

Can't give you 1 particular example from the top of my head but to me it seems that sometimes he loses a position a little to easily or he just can't make that 1 pass that would open up his race.
Might be perception though.

#16434 xlr8

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Posted 08 January 2012 - 13:28

Out of interest, over the past season can you (or anyone on-thread) recall any particular examples of his lack of racecraft?

umm... Singapore 2009? China 2010?

Edited by xlr8, 08 January 2012 - 13:29.


#16435 ivand911

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Posted 08 January 2012 - 13:29

OK, back to the topic. Nico have his own thread.

#16436 jj2728

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Posted 08 January 2012 - 13:38

Based on your evasivness it appears that you have no clue what it is you are talking about, do you? History is full of opinions, mostly subjective, and then there are statistics; problem is, you do not like statistics - you prefer an empty argument instead.


I have no clue what I am talking about.....hmmmm. Ok Mr. Expert let me explain myself yet again. If you had read my post you would have seen that I said that yes his stats are the best, but that does not necessarily make him the greatest of all time. I said that you cannot compare different eras. I never said that I didn't like stats.

It chuffs me when people like you get on their soapbox and claim to be the "know it alls" of the sport and when someone posts a contradictory opinion he is evasive, doesn't have a clue what he is talking about, and prefers empty arguements......

Why don't you join the rest of us mortals and come down from your lofty heights.....



#16437 jj2728

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Posted 08 January 2012 - 13:39

No driver in the history of F1, except for 1988-1991 Ayrton Senna, could match 1996-2000 Schumacher. Given the cars he drove for those seasons, which was not exactly the quickest car nor the most reliable car from 1996-2000 (McLaren had the faster car in 1998-1999-2000, but I'd say by 2000, Ferrari was the better package very slighty, in 1997, Williams was the better car absolutely).


I think Mika Hakkinen would disagree with you........

#16438 handel

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Posted 08 January 2012 - 13:43

Can't give you 1 particular example from the top of my head but to me it seems that sometimes he loses a position a little to easily or he just can't make that 1 pass that would open up his race.
Might be perception though.


I would say that (talking about the past season) this is more to do with the position Merc found themselves in. A second behind the top 3 and a second in front of the 5th team. In this situation the merc of Rosberg was out of position a fair bit trying to leapfrog the others, or trying different strategies. In comparison with Michael (who found himself way back where he shouldn't have been) Rosberg didn't get in many tangles and often took the smart option of relinquishing his position i.e. at Spa since fighting would have lost him more time.

We need to see both drivers back in a car that's very close to others in the field to really judge their racecraft now.

#16439 jj2728

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Posted 08 January 2012 - 13:44

No - you're the one being pompous, you tell us why you know more than we do and why MS isn't the best.


A smart ass remark deserves a smart ass remark in kind.....I never said that I knew more than you people did....How many times do I need to say that Schumacher's stats are the best but that does not necessarily make him the greatest driver of all time.....different eras cannot be compared....that's what I was saying.....get it?


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#16440 tifosiMac

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Posted 08 January 2012 - 13:44

I have no clue what I am talking about.....hmmmm. Ok Mr. Expert let me explain myself yet again. If you had read my post you would have seen that I said that yes his stats are the best, but that does not necessarily make him the greatest of all time. I said that you cannot compare different eras. I never said that I didn't like stats.

It chuffs me when people like you get on their soapbox and claim to be the "know it alls" of the sport and when someone posts a contradictory opinion he is evasive, doesn't have a clue what he is talking about, and prefers empty arguements......

Why don't you join the rest of us mortals and come down from your lofty heights.....

You should have put 'Owned' at the end of your post lol :)

Seriously though, saying to Schumacher fans that you don't consider him the greatest of all time is a fruitless task. You always get responses like "but he's a 7 x WDC", or "look at the stats" lol. Its not about championships and race wins in my book, its about style, passion and how other drivers look up to them IMO. Schumacher is up there amongst the greatest but he doesn't hold the top spot in my view. He is technically the best there has ever been though but when you say that people view greatest and best as the same thing which it isn't. :)

Edited by tifosiMac, 08 January 2012 - 13:46.


#16441 handel

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Posted 08 January 2012 - 13:54

The whole idea of crowning one driver as 'the greatest of all time' is flawed. The sport changes, the requirements change. It's a lot like trying to crown the best football player of all time - daft and impossible to quantify.

#16442 Sakae

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Posted 08 January 2012 - 14:16

I have no clue what I am talking about.....hmmmm. Ok Mr. Expert let me explain myself yet again. If you had read my post you would have seen that I said that yes his stats are the best, but that does not necessarily make him the greatest of all time. I said that you cannot compare different eras. I never said that I didn't like stats.

It chuffs me when people like you get on their soapbox and claim to be the "know it alls" of the sport and when someone posts a contradictory opinion he is evasive, doesn't have a clue what he is talking about, and prefers empty arguements......

Why don't you join the rest of us mortals and come down from your lofty heights.....

Not to beat the dead horse, first of all I have never claimed to be an expert, but people like you get under my skin because first you disregard racing statistics for whatever reasons, and then continue with a claim that Schumacher is not the greatest driver, a statement which remains unexplained, thus an opinion only. When invited to explain it, you have told me to study history. Well, Mr. History, had you study it, you would have known that it offers no answers to such foolish statements with any definite conviction. You are entitled to any opinion you want, but stop lecturing us about it.



#16443 cheapracer

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Posted 08 January 2012 - 14:35

A smart ass remark deserves a smart ass remark in kind.....I never said that I knew more than you people did....How many times do I need to say that Schumacher's stats are the best but that does not necessarily make him the greatest driver of all time.....different eras cannot be compared....that's what I was saying.....get it?



Best statistically and greatest are the same, look up a dictionary, it's a book with a lot of words.

Different era's can be easily compared.

You still fail to put any argument up in defense of your position but continue to take the position that you are right - look up pompous while looking up greatest..

Edited by cheapracer, 08 January 2012 - 14:47.


#16444 cheapracer

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Posted 08 January 2012 - 16:17

You should have put 'Owned' at the end of your post lol :)

Seriously though, saying to Schumacher fans that you don't consider him the greatest of all time is a fruitless task. You always get responses like "but he's a 7 x WDC", or "look at the stats" lol. Its not about championships and race wins in my book, its about style, passion and how other drivers look up to them IMO. Schumacher is up there amongst the greatest but he doesn't hold the top spot in my view. He is technically the best there has ever been though but when you say that people view greatest and best as the same thing which it isn't. :)


You see Spa08, handel, jj2728, etc. - above is a post with reasoning, eloquence and intelligence.

The opinion is wrong but still a good post! :up: :lol:


#16445 jj2728

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Posted 08 January 2012 - 16:21

Best statistically and greatest are the same, look up a dictionary, it's a book with a lot of words.

Different era's can be easily compared.

You still fail to put any argument up in defense of your position but continue to take the position that you are right - look up pompous while looking up greatest..


What is it with you people.....does Schumacher have you on his payroll?
What type of defense would you like me to put up?
You fail to see the point that I am making that the best stats do not necessarily contibute to being the greatest of all time...and you say that different eras can be compared? By stats yes, but that does not make him the greatest ever in my book.....
You call me pompous and imply that I don't know what a dictionary is.......
You sir, are full of it........and very full of yourself.......


#16446 spa08

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Posted 08 January 2012 - 16:22

You see Spa08, handel, jj2728, etc. - above is a post with reasoning, eloquence and intelligence.

The opinion is wrong but still a good post! :up: :lol:


I suppose your opinion is right :lol:

#16447 jj2728

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Posted 08 January 2012 - 16:27

Not to beat the dead horse, first of all I have never claimed to be an expert, but people like you get under my skin because first you disregard racing statistics for whatever reasons, and then continue with a claim that Schumacher is not the greatest driver, a statement which remains unexplained, thus an opinion only. When invited to explain it, you have told me to study history. Well, Mr. History, had you study it, you would have known that it offers no answers to such foolish statements with any definite conviction. You are entitled to any opinion you want, but stop lecturing us about it.


Another fool on the Schumacher payroll.....
You must be very insecure to say that I have been lecturing you.....
As far as beating a dead horse.....
I have repeatedly said that his stats are the best but that does not necessarily mean that he is the greatest because different eras cannot be compared. With stats, yes but in my book stats alone do not make him the greatest.
Can you understand that now? Were the words I used small enough and mono-sybillic enough for you?
Have I made it simple enough now?

#16448 jj2728

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Posted 08 January 2012 - 16:30

You see Spa08, handel, jj2728, etc. - above is a post with reasoning, eloquence and intelligence.


When it comes to Schumacher most of you don't know what reasoning, eloquence and intelligence are......

#16449 spacekid

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Posted 08 January 2012 - 18:24

The whole idea of crowning one driver as 'the greatest of all time' is flawed. The sport changes, the requirements change. It's a lot like trying to crown the best football player of all time - daft and impossible to quantify.


:up:

Agreed, its ridiculous. After many many years of watching them all drive I still couldn't tell you who I thought was the 'best' or most complete driver between Senna, Prost and Schumacher. Whats the point to even try? They were all superb and better than nearly all of their peers.

You can still have your 'favourite' for whatever reason of course, but trying to determine who was the best? I'm not even sure what the question means - fastest over a lap, best at setup, best all rounder? Its meaningless.

#16450 ivand911

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Posted 08 January 2012 - 19:35

Another fool on the Schumacher payroll.....
You must be very insecure to say that I have been lecturing you.....
As far as beating a dead horse.....
I have repeatedly said that his stats are the best but that does not necessarily mean that he is the greatest because different eras cannot be compared. With stats, yes but in my book stats alone do not make him the greatest.
Can you understand that now? Were the words I used small enough and mono-sybillic enough for you?
Have I made it simple enough now?

When it comes to Schumacher most of you don't know what reasoning, eloquence and intelligence are......

JJ we don't care who is the greatest in your books! It is OT. He is in our books, and that is what matters for us. And he is greatest in other peoples book too. We get it about your books. Can you stop repeating yourself? You have to accept this(that we think he is the best) and move on.

Edited by ivand911, 08 January 2012 - 19:38.