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#16451 handel

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Posted 08 January 2012 - 13:16

Yep Nico is a very good driver. Great over 1 lap, needs a little more race craft and commercially very interesting as very presentable and fluent in 5 languages.


Out of interest, over the past season can you (or anyone on-thread) recall any particular examples of his lack of racecraft?

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#16452 Concorde

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Posted 08 January 2012 - 13:23

Out of interest, over the past season can you (or anyone on-thread) recall any particular examples of his lack of racecraft?

Can't give you 1 particular example from the top of my head but to me it seems that sometimes he loses a position a little to easily or he just can't make that 1 pass that would open up his race.
Might be perception though.

#16453 xlr8

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Posted 08 January 2012 - 13:28

Out of interest, over the past season can you (or anyone on-thread) recall any particular examples of his lack of racecraft?

umm... Singapore 2009? China 2010?

Edited by xlr8, 08 January 2012 - 13:29.


#16454 ivand911

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Posted 08 January 2012 - 13:29

OK, back to the topic. Nico have his own thread.

#16455 jj2728

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Posted 08 January 2012 - 13:38

Based on your evasivness it appears that you have no clue what it is you are talking about, do you? History is full of opinions, mostly subjective, and then there are statistics; problem is, you do not like statistics - you prefer an empty argument instead.


I have no clue what I am talking about.....hmmmm. Ok Mr. Expert let me explain myself yet again. If you had read my post you would have seen that I said that yes his stats are the best, but that does not necessarily make him the greatest of all time. I said that you cannot compare different eras. I never said that I didn't like stats.

It chuffs me when people like you get on their soapbox and claim to be the "know it alls" of the sport and when someone posts a contradictory opinion he is evasive, doesn't have a clue what he is talking about, and prefers empty arguements......

Why don't you join the rest of us mortals and come down from your lofty heights.....



#16456 jj2728

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Posted 08 January 2012 - 13:39

No driver in the history of F1, except for 1988-1991 Ayrton Senna, could match 1996-2000 Schumacher. Given the cars he drove for those seasons, which was not exactly the quickest car nor the most reliable car from 1996-2000 (McLaren had the faster car in 1998-1999-2000, but I'd say by 2000, Ferrari was the better package very slighty, in 1997, Williams was the better car absolutely).


I think Mika Hakkinen would disagree with you........

#16457 handel

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Posted 08 January 2012 - 13:43

Can't give you 1 particular example from the top of my head but to me it seems that sometimes he loses a position a little to easily or he just can't make that 1 pass that would open up his race.
Might be perception though.


I would say that (talking about the past season) this is more to do with the position Merc found themselves in. A second behind the top 3 and a second in front of the 5th team. In this situation the merc of Rosberg was out of position a fair bit trying to leapfrog the others, or trying different strategies. In comparison with Michael (who found himself way back where he shouldn't have been) Rosberg didn't get in many tangles and often took the smart option of relinquishing his position i.e. at Spa since fighting would have lost him more time.

We need to see both drivers back in a car that's very close to others in the field to really judge their racecraft now.

#16458 jj2728

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Posted 08 January 2012 - 13:44

No - you're the one being pompous, you tell us why you know more than we do and why MS isn't the best.


A smart ass remark deserves a smart ass remark in kind.....I never said that I knew more than you people did....How many times do I need to say that Schumacher's stats are the best but that does not necessarily make him the greatest driver of all time.....different eras cannot be compared....that's what I was saying.....get it?


#16459 tifosiMac

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Posted 08 January 2012 - 13:44

I have no clue what I am talking about.....hmmmm. Ok Mr. Expert let me explain myself yet again. If you had read my post you would have seen that I said that yes his stats are the best, but that does not necessarily make him the greatest of all time. I said that you cannot compare different eras. I never said that I didn't like stats.

It chuffs me when people like you get on their soapbox and claim to be the "know it alls" of the sport and when someone posts a contradictory opinion he is evasive, doesn't have a clue what he is talking about, and prefers empty arguements......

Why don't you join the rest of us mortals and come down from your lofty heights.....

You should have put 'Owned' at the end of your post lol :)

Seriously though, saying to Schumacher fans that you don't consider him the greatest of all time is a fruitless task. You always get responses like "but he's a 7 x WDC", or "look at the stats" lol. Its not about championships and race wins in my book, its about style, passion and how other drivers look up to them IMO. Schumacher is up there amongst the greatest but he doesn't hold the top spot in my view. He is technically the best there has ever been though but when you say that people view greatest and best as the same thing which it isn't. :)

Edited by tifosiMac, 08 January 2012 - 13:46.


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#16460 handel

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Posted 08 January 2012 - 13:54

The whole idea of crowning one driver as 'the greatest of all time' is flawed. The sport changes, the requirements change. It's a lot like trying to crown the best football player of all time - daft and impossible to quantify.

#16461 Sakae

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Posted 08 January 2012 - 14:16

I have no clue what I am talking about.....hmmmm. Ok Mr. Expert let me explain myself yet again. If you had read my post you would have seen that I said that yes his stats are the best, but that does not necessarily make him the greatest of all time. I said that you cannot compare different eras. I never said that I didn't like stats.

It chuffs me when people like you get on their soapbox and claim to be the "know it alls" of the sport and when someone posts a contradictory opinion he is evasive, doesn't have a clue what he is talking about, and prefers empty arguements......

Why don't you join the rest of us mortals and come down from your lofty heights.....

Not to beat the dead horse, first of all I have never claimed to be an expert, but people like you get under my skin because first you disregard racing statistics for whatever reasons, and then continue with a claim that Schumacher is not the greatest driver, a statement which remains unexplained, thus an opinion only. When invited to explain it, you have told me to study history. Well, Mr. History, had you study it, you would have known that it offers no answers to such foolish statements with any definite conviction. You are entitled to any opinion you want, but stop lecturing us about it.



#16462 cheapracer

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Posted 08 January 2012 - 14:35

A smart ass remark deserves a smart ass remark in kind.....I never said that I knew more than you people did....How many times do I need to say that Schumacher's stats are the best but that does not necessarily make him the greatest driver of all time.....different eras cannot be compared....that's what I was saying.....get it?



Best statistically and greatest are the same, look up a dictionary, it's a book with a lot of words.

Different era's can be easily compared.

You still fail to put any argument up in defense of your position but continue to take the position that you are right - look up pompous while looking up greatest..

Edited by cheapracer, 08 January 2012 - 14:47.


#16463 cheapracer

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Posted 08 January 2012 - 16:17

You should have put 'Owned' at the end of your post lol :)

Seriously though, saying to Schumacher fans that you don't consider him the greatest of all time is a fruitless task. You always get responses like "but he's a 7 x WDC", or "look at the stats" lol. Its not about championships and race wins in my book, its about style, passion and how other drivers look up to them IMO. Schumacher is up there amongst the greatest but he doesn't hold the top spot in my view. He is technically the best there has ever been though but when you say that people view greatest and best as the same thing which it isn't. :)


You see Spa08, handel, jj2728, etc. - above is a post with reasoning, eloquence and intelligence.

The opinion is wrong but still a good post! :up: :lol:


#16464 jj2728

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Posted 08 January 2012 - 16:21

Best statistically and greatest are the same, look up a dictionary, it's a book with a lot of words.

Different era's can be easily compared.

You still fail to put any argument up in defense of your position but continue to take the position that you are right - look up pompous while looking up greatest..


What is it with you people.....does Schumacher have you on his payroll?
What type of defense would you like me to put up?
You fail to see the point that I am making that the best stats do not necessarily contibute to being the greatest of all time...and you say that different eras can be compared? By stats yes, but that does not make him the greatest ever in my book.....
You call me pompous and imply that I don't know what a dictionary is.......
You sir, are full of it........and very full of yourself.......


#16465 spa08

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Posted 08 January 2012 - 16:22

You see Spa08, handel, jj2728, etc. - above is a post with reasoning, eloquence and intelligence.

The opinion is wrong but still a good post! :up: :lol:


I suppose your opinion is right :lol:

#16466 jj2728

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Posted 08 January 2012 - 16:27

Not to beat the dead horse, first of all I have never claimed to be an expert, but people like you get under my skin because first you disregard racing statistics for whatever reasons, and then continue with a claim that Schumacher is not the greatest driver, a statement which remains unexplained, thus an opinion only. When invited to explain it, you have told me to study history. Well, Mr. History, had you study it, you would have known that it offers no answers to such foolish statements with any definite conviction. You are entitled to any opinion you want, but stop lecturing us about it.


Another fool on the Schumacher payroll.....
You must be very insecure to say that I have been lecturing you.....
As far as beating a dead horse.....
I have repeatedly said that his stats are the best but that does not necessarily mean that he is the greatest because different eras cannot be compared. With stats, yes but in my book stats alone do not make him the greatest.
Can you understand that now? Were the words I used small enough and mono-sybillic enough for you?
Have I made it simple enough now?

#16467 jj2728

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Posted 08 January 2012 - 16:30

You see Spa08, handel, jj2728, etc. - above is a post with reasoning, eloquence and intelligence.


When it comes to Schumacher most of you don't know what reasoning, eloquence and intelligence are......

#16468 spacekid

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Posted 08 January 2012 - 18:24

The whole idea of crowning one driver as 'the greatest of all time' is flawed. The sport changes, the requirements change. It's a lot like trying to crown the best football player of all time - daft and impossible to quantify.


:up:

Agreed, its ridiculous. After many many years of watching them all drive I still couldn't tell you who I thought was the 'best' or most complete driver between Senna, Prost and Schumacher. Whats the point to even try? They were all superb and better than nearly all of their peers.

You can still have your 'favourite' for whatever reason of course, but trying to determine who was the best? I'm not even sure what the question means - fastest over a lap, best at setup, best all rounder? Its meaningless.

#16469 ivand911

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Posted 08 January 2012 - 19:35

Another fool on the Schumacher payroll.....
You must be very insecure to say that I have been lecturing you.....
As far as beating a dead horse.....
I have repeatedly said that his stats are the best but that does not necessarily mean that he is the greatest because different eras cannot be compared. With stats, yes but in my book stats alone do not make him the greatest.
Can you understand that now? Were the words I used small enough and mono-sybillic enough for you?
Have I made it simple enough now?

When it comes to Schumacher most of you don't know what reasoning, eloquence and intelligence are......

JJ we don't care who is the greatest in your books! It is OT. He is in our books, and that is what matters for us. And he is greatest in other peoples book too. We get it about your books. Can you stop repeating yourself? You have to accept this(that we think he is the best) and move on.

Edited by ivand911, 08 January 2012 - 19:38.


#16470 jj2728

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Posted 08 January 2012 - 19:42

JJ we don't care who is the greatest in your books! It is OT. He is in our books, and that is what matters for us. And he is greatest in other peoples book too. We get it about your books. Can you stop repeating yourself? You have to accept this(that we think he is the best) and move on.


Yeah, I get that. It must really get under your collective skins when someone does not worship at his knee caps like many of you do.
And as far as repeating one's self, well I'd say that a majority of you once again do the same on a regular basis and so I'll just say...
pot.....kettle....black.....

#16471 tifosiMac

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Posted 08 January 2012 - 19:50

You see Spa08, handel, jj2728, etc. - above is a post with reasoning, eloquence and intelligence.

The opinion is wrong but still a good post! :up: :lol:

I was lucky enough to see his era from his very first race up until this present day. I have big respect for the guy and at his peak his driving was clinical, consistent, and ruthless. Mesmerizing to watch infact. He is one of the greats the sport has ever seen, but on personal level I have to say he isn't who I hold that mantle for. Statistically he is the best until his records are beaten which may not occur for many, many years, but the word 'great' holds a different meaning to me than 'best'. I'm sure Michael is happy with his records and has total career satisfaction. He himself admits he doesn't consider himself as the greatest and I don't feel he is just doing that out of modesty. The BBC did an interesting segment a couple of years ago where every driver was asked who the 'greatest' was. It was interesting to hear their views and shows how different people look up to the greats. :)

#16472 ivand911

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Posted 08 January 2012 - 19:50

Yeah, I get that. It must really get under your collective skins when someone does not worship at his knee caps like many of you do.
And as far as repeating one's self, well I'd say that a majority of you once again do the same on a regular basis and so I'll just say...
pot.....kettle....black.....

1. NO. Read my last post again. First sentence.
2. Nobody wants to change you.
3. I don't go to the other drivers threads to tell there, that the topic guy is not the best as majority of them think. This is the difference between me and you, I don't force my opinion.

Edited by ivand911, 08 January 2012 - 19:50.


#16473 George Costanza

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Posted 08 January 2012 - 20:40

:rotfl:



Actually it does. That is why the post quoted above you is funny. MH was fighting in the midfield for 8-9 years until he surfaced on top, and finally earned himself the reputation he has today. He was judged about the same way as NR is now. I just thought that somebody who is throwing about MH's name in this context would know that, but obviously not.



No, this is funny.

Mika had the speed; he always did; as we saw in 1993 and 1994. Nico does not have that kind of speed.

#16474 George Costanza

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Posted 08 January 2012 - 20:41

I think Mika Hakkinen would disagree with you........



The McLaren was the better car from 1998-2000, I am sure he would agree with that. For 2000, it was on par with Ferrari, remember Ferrari had issues with their car in the summer of 2000. As for as competeting with vintage Schumacher, which he did very well.... But Schu was clearly the better driver overall, I don't think anyone disputes that for those seasons; look at some of the wonderful drives he put on.

Edited by George Costanza, 08 January 2012 - 20:44.


#16475 tifosiMac

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Posted 08 January 2012 - 20:48

Can't give you 1 particular example

:lol:

#16476 Group B

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Posted 08 January 2012 - 20:59

The 'greatest' will always be a matter of subjective opinion, though most of us would draw up a pretty similar top 10. I'm a huge fan of (the old) Michael, but there's no way I can be certain he's better than Lang, Rosemeyer, Fangio, Clark, etc - or even Senna, Prost and Co. What I do know, as TifosiMac says, is that he was little short of mesmerizing from around 1992-2002, and only someone too young to remember or wilfully obtuse would claim he was an average driver in hyper cars.

On the subject of Mika, he's the only guy from 94-04 that I felt could match Michael over a single lap; some of their turn-taking qualifying duels were absolutely epic.

#16477 spa08

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Posted 08 January 2012 - 21:08

No, this is funny.

Mika had the speed; he always did; as we saw in 1993 and 1994. Nico does not have that kind of speed.


And how do you know he hasn't, put it this way if he was in a top car he'd be well worth a bet in my eyes

#16478 jj2728

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Posted 08 January 2012 - 21:30

3. I don't go to the other drivers threads to tell there, that the topic guy is not the best as majority of them think. This is the difference between me and you, I don't force my opinion.


Actually that's pretty funny, almost child like.
You don't go over to the other drivers' threads to say that so and so is not the best.....what do you think this is, a juniors' schoolyard?
I am not forcing any opinion on anyone I am merely stating MHO and why I think it is so, but some of you are so blind in your allegiance to Schumacher that reasoning, eloquence and intelligence go right out the window....


#16479 Tardis40

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Posted 08 January 2012 - 21:39

Obviously it's very difficult to draw meaningful comparisons between athletes that competed in different eras. Thus we have those that tout Fangio, Clark, Ayrton, et al.

Schumacher's statistics are of such a magnitude that there is nothing to compare them to. I doubt if any driver will ever top the 91 wins and 7 wdcs he accumulated in his "first career". I can understand that this gets stuck in the craws of those that don't like him. The numbers are there, they are undeniable, and no one has ever come anywhere near matching them.

Is not the greatest track and field star the one who runs the fastest, jumps the highest, and wins all the medals and titles? Is not the same true for any other endeavor? It's no different here either. If anyone has claim to the title of the greatest racing driver ever, it is Michael Schumacher.



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#16480 handel

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Posted 08 January 2012 - 21:55

Obviously it's very difficult to draw meaningful comparisons between athletes that competed in different eras. Thus we have those that tout Fangio, Clark, Ayrton, et al.

Schumacher's statistics are of such a magnitude that there is nothing to compare them to. I doubt if any driver will ever top the 91 wins and 7 wdcs he accumulated in his "first career". I can understand that this gets stuck in the craws of those that don't like him. The numbers are there, they are undeniable, and no one has ever come anywhere near matching them.

Is not the greatest track and field star the one who runs the fastest, jumps the highest, and wins all the medals and titles? Is not the same true for any other endeavor? It's no different here either. If anyone has claim to the title of the greatest racing driver ever, it is Michael Schumacher.


Different eras, different:

- Types of machinery
- Amounts of races
- Financial climate (stability, driver loyalty)
- Technological climate (ability for one team to stay ahead)
- Competition

Comparing eras with any degree of accuracy is therefore impossible since there are NO constants. This is the single defining principle of scientific investigation and therefore surely pretty central to any statistical analysis. The examples you give do have constants given their lack of complexity - i.e. running, jumping and can by all means be compared.

I'm not arguing that someone other than MS could be given this 'greatest driver' crown. I'm saying that even using it as a term is banal, trivial, utterly pointless affair the like of which should be reserved for shoddy tabloid journalism, children & the writing team for Top Gear.

#16481 ivand911

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Posted 08 January 2012 - 22:14

Actually that's pretty funny, almost child like.
You don't go over to the other drivers' threads to say that so and so is not the best.....what do you think this is, a juniors' schoolyard?
I am not forcing any opinion on anyone I am merely stating MHO and why I think it is so, but some of you are so blind in your allegiance to Schumacher that reasoning, eloquence and intelligence go right out the window....

So,anyone who won't accept your vision/opinion is blind, not intelligent, not reasonable. Tell me about it not forcing opinion.


#16482 jj2728

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Posted 08 January 2012 - 22:35

So,anyone who won't accept your vision/opinion is blind, not intelligent, not reasonable. Tell me about it not forcing opinion.


Nope, you are wrong. I never stated that anyone had to accept anything I voice an opinion on.
Did you not read my prior post?
I guess it all ties in with the blind allegiance stuff, you read and interpret what suits your views.....

#16483 jj2728

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Posted 08 January 2012 - 22:39

Comparing eras with any degree of accuracy is therefore impossible since there are NO constants. This is the single defining principle of scientific investigation and therefore surely pretty central to any statistical analysis. The examples you give do have constants given their lack of complexity - i.e. running, jumping and can by all means be compared.

I'm not arguing that someone other than MS could be given this 'greatest driver' crown. I'm saying that even using it as a term is banal, trivial, utterly pointless affair the like of which should be reserved for shoddy tabloid journalism, children & the writing team for Top Gear.


That in essence is what I have been trying to say, but as usual, well....... you can gauge by the responses I am met with how well it goes over in some circles here...

#16484 baddog

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Posted 09 January 2012 - 00:15

Nope, you are wrong. I never stated that anyone had to accept anything I voice an opinion on.
Did you not read my prior post?
I guess it all ties in with the blind allegiance stuff, you read and interpret what suits your views.....

I would like to chime in and say your views (along with other people's dismissal of them as bunk for the most part) are very welcome here. You might want to consider whether a less supercilious tone would generate a more friendly conversation with the general forum community however, assuming you wish for a positive and friendly discussion that is.

Back on topic, calling Rosberg mediocre is ridiculous, and seems to mostly be aimed at Michael rather than being a thought out opinion, as he placed a poor Williams in excellent grid positions it never deserved on numerous occasions and has never failed to extract the apparent maximum from his car in qualifying at any team. He seems to lack SOMETHING over a two hour in comparison to a Mika or a Michael, something in the head. I can't really back that up though.

I wont go near 'greatest ever' waffle, it has always been silly.

Edited by baddog, 09 January 2012 - 00:16.


#16485 George Costanza

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Posted 09 January 2012 - 01:27

The 'greatest' will always be a matter of subjective opinion, though most of us would draw up a pretty similar top 10. I'm a huge fan of (the old) Michael, but there's no way I can be certain he's better than Lang, Rosemeyer, Fangio, Clark, etc - or even Senna, Prost and Co. What I do know, as TifosiMac says, is that he was little short of mesmerizing from around 1992-2002, and only someone too young to remember or wilfully obtuse would claim he was an average driver in hyper cars.

On the subject of Mika, he's the only guy from 94-04 that I felt could match Michael over a single lap; some of their turn-taking qualifying duels were absolutely epic.



Yes, I always believed Mika could be faster than Michael on the single lap. No doubt he was on his day (1998-2000 seasons).

#16486 jj2728

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Posted 09 January 2012 - 01:30

I would like to chime in and say your views (along with other people's dismissal of them as bunk for the most part) are very welcome here. You might want to consider whether a less supercilious tone would generate a more friendly conversation with the general forum community however, assuming you wish for a positive and friendly discussion that is.


Thanks, but I'm a big boy and can handle this crowd. And to be quite frank I like the idea of being supercilious, has a nice ring to it. You see, I post an opinion of mine and almost immediately am jumped upon. and why? Because it is contradictory to the rampant hero worship of Schumacher that goes on here.....I'm forcing, as they say, my opinons on them, I am pompous, to some I can't read, don't know what a dictionary is, am neither eloquent, nor reasonable.......oh my.
And all because I have said that Schumacher's stats are the best, but IMHO I do not think that he is the greatest driver ever as one cannot compare different eras...
Funny thing is, I've met him a couple of times and he was most pleasant, doesn't change my opinion of whether he's the greatest or not though.......

#16487 spacekid

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Posted 09 January 2012 - 07:49

Thanks, but I'm a big boy and can handle this crowd. And to be quite frank I like the idea of being supercilious, has a nice ring to it. You see, I post an opinion of mine and almost immediately am jumped upon. and why? Because it is contradictory to the rampant hero worship of Schumacher that goes on here.....I'm forcing, as they say, my opinons on them, I am pompous, to some I can't read, don't know what a dictionary is, am neither eloquent, nor reasonable.......oh my.
And all because I have said that Schumacher's stats are the best, but IMHO I do not think that he is the greatest driver ever as one cannot compare different eras...
Funny thing is, I've met him a couple of times and he was most pleasant, doesn't change my opinion of whether he's the greatest or not though.......


You seem quite unaware of the reason you are being 'jumped on'.

Of course you can hold whatever opinion you want. The reason you are getting into 'arguments' about your 'opinion' is that your tone is downright rude and condascending.

As an example - I agree it is silly to hold one driver up as the 'greatest'. I couldn't tell you who was better between Jim Clark or Senna or Schumi or Prost etc etc and wouldn't bother to try. I also think Rosberg is a mighty fine driver who has shaded Schumi these past 2 years in terms of performance.

The responses you have made to my posts in the past say everything about your attitude, so you don't fool me with this 'oh its only because no Schumacher fan on here is reasonable' BS. Buttercup.

#16488 sharo

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Posted 09 January 2012 - 10:06

The whole idea of crowning one driver as 'the greatest of all time' is flawed. The sport changes, the requirements change. It's a lot like trying to crown the best football player of all time - daft and impossible to quantify.

I share the same view and keep saying it from time to time, but few pay attention.
Although I am a devoted MS fan I'd never declare him the greatest of all times. But not for the flawed reasons most people here give. Simply there are many great drivers and every one has made his achievements in different periods of time and under different conditions. The common between them is that they have managed to be the best under those circumstances and used their opportunities to the max.

Edited by sharo, 09 January 2012 - 10:08.


#16489 jj2728

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Posted 09 January 2012 - 10:22

You seem quite unaware of the reason you are being 'jumped on'.

Of course you can hold whatever opinion you want. The reason you are getting into 'arguments' about your 'opinion' is that your tone is downright rude and condascending.

As an example - I agree it is silly to hold one driver up as the 'greatest'. I couldn't tell you who was better between Jim Clark or Senna or Schumi or Prost etc etc and wouldn't bother to try. I also think Rosberg is a mighty fine driver who has shaded Schumi these past 2 years in terms of performance.

The responses you have made to my posts in the past say everything about your attitude, so you don't fool me with this 'oh its only because no Schumacher fan on here is reasonable' BS. Buttercup.


As far as being unaware.....hardly......
You don't like my attitude? Then don't respond.....simple as that. Or put me on your ignore list as so many are want to do....

#16490 Sakae

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Posted 09 January 2012 - 12:00

Obviously it's very difficult to draw meaningful comparisons between athletes that competed in different eras. Thus we have those that tout Fangio, Clark, Ayrton, et al.

Schumacher's statistics are of such a magnitude that there is nothing to compare them to. I doubt if any driver will ever top the 91 wins and 7 wdcs he accumulated in his "first career". I can understand that this gets stuck in the craws of those that don't like him. The numbers are there, they are undeniable, and no one has ever come anywhere near matching them.

At last a voice of a reason. I have always maintained that it is not only counterproductive to compare drivers of different era, and if (for fun) you want to do it, statistics is the only yardstick that is left then. I would not want to depend on archived articles from hostile, nationalistic websites or similar sources. I also view as disrespectful for someone to say to Schumacher, just as to any other driver - you not the greatest, without actualy also explaining on what basis one can make a such claim. It makes sense to me that if you say it, than you can also explain it, and if not, than you are simply trolling.

#16491 tifosiMac

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Posted 09 January 2012 - 12:07

At last a voice of a reason. I have always maintained that it is not only counterproductive to compare drivers of different era, and if (for fun) you want to do it, statistics is the only yardstick that is left then. I would not want to depend on archived articles from hostile, nationalistic websites or similar sources. I also view as disrespectful for someone to say to Schumacher, just as to any other driver - you not the greatest, without actualy also explaining on what basis one can make a such claim. It makes sense to me that if you say it, than you can also explain it, and if not, than you are simply trolling.

I don't agree that statistics are the only yardstick you can judge with. I would agree that it is difficult to say one driver is the greatest over the other because the era's have been so different. You could argue that Schumacher never faced the type of competition we saw in the 80's or like in the present day. You could also say that regardless of that he still would have been the best, but their are elements of doubt on both sides. I think when debating we need to accept that others have different opinions and we all have drivers we have looked up to and admired their talents. Saying you consider Schumacher to be the best there has been based on his achievements, but not the greatest in terms of overall package is not a daft thing to say and shouldn't be greeted with the accusation of trolling IMO.

#16492 Sakae

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Posted 09 January 2012 - 12:15

I don't agree that statistics are the only yardstick you can judge with. I would agree that it is difficult to say one driver is the greatest over the other because the era's have been so different. You could argue that Schumacher never faced the type of competition we saw in the 80's or like in the present day.

Well here you go again - how you can claim that drivers who drove alonside Schumacher were lesser drivers than those who raced after or before his (first) carreer was launched? On what basis you make that claim other than your subjective opinion? BTW, I am old enough to remember my time at the track to see Michael racing with Senna and Prost, and I am satisfied with his top level driving.

Edited by Sakae, 09 January 2012 - 12:16.


#16493 tifosiMac

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Posted 09 January 2012 - 12:25

Well here you go again - how you can claim that drivers who drove alonside Schumacher were lesser drivers than those who raced after or before his (first) carreer was launched? On what basis you make that claim other than your subjective opinion? BTW, I am old enough to remember my time at the track to see Michael racing with Senna and Prost, and I am satisfied with his top level driving.

How can you claim he did have equally strong opponents during time, is also a reasonable question? What I have said IS my opinion, and I am not passing it off as fact or anything like that. Why can't you accept my view? :confused:

I like yourself am old enough to remember Schumacher racing against Senna and Prost and I also witnessed it live at the track. Does that make my opinion any better than anyone elses? No it doesn't but I'm entitled to my opinion.

#16494 ivand911

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Posted 09 January 2012 - 13:35

I don't agree that statistics are the only yardstick you can judge with. I would agree that it is difficult to say one driver is the greatest over the other because the era's have been so different. You could argue that Schumacher never faced the type of competition we saw in the 80's or like in the present day. You could also say that regardless of that he still would have been the best, but their are elements of doubt on both sides.

What competition you see in 2011? I didn't see any. It was walk in the park.


#16495 tifosiMac

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Posted 09 January 2012 - 13:46

What competition you see in 2011? I didn't see any. It was walk in the park.

Very true. I suppose if the car is the best by a clear margin all the competition in the world won't stop you winning championships.

#16496 DutchCruijff

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Posted 09 January 2012 - 16:24

Out of interest, for you Schumi fans what are your opinions on the Rascasse '06 incident and did it change your affection/feelings for Schumacher in anyway whatsoever?

#16497 Sakae

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Posted 09 January 2012 - 16:31

Out of interest, for you Schumi fans what are your opinions on the Rascasse '06 incident and did it change your affection/feelings for Schumacher in anyway whatsoever?

To answer your question - No, and anyone who thinks he would have managed the situation differently is playing Monday morning quarterback. Situation unfolds differently in an armchair looking backwards, the same on the pitwall, and when you are in the car, making split second decisions. Some journalists simply live in destruction, scorch land mode for majority of their lives, so it seems.

#16498 Szoelloe

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Posted 09 January 2012 - 16:36

Out of interest, for you Schumi fans what are your opinions on the Rascasse '06 incident and did it change your affection/feelings for Schumacher in anyway whatsoever?


no

#16499 chrisaix

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Posted 09 January 2012 - 16:55

Out of interest, for you Schumi fans what are your opinions on the Rascasse '06 incident and did it change your affection/feelings for Schumacher in anyway whatsoever?


No, not at all. He's still the same schumi for me.

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#16500 Richardc

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Posted 09 January 2012 - 16:59

In such a long career there will be bits that are less than ideal, just happens his were at important times for important reasons.