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Michael Schumacher (merged)


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#16501 hammibal

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Posted 09 January 2012 - 18:19

Well here you go again - how you can claim that drivers who drove alonside Schumacher were lesser drivers than those who raced after or before his (first) carreer was launched? On what basis you make that claim other than your subjective opinion? BTW, I am old enough to remember my time at the track to see Michael racing with Senna and Prost, and I am satisfied with his top level driving.

The main problem for me with Schumacher is the quality of the teammates

I have to say that it (a) he did cheat, it was intentional not a "sudden reflex" as he showed no remorse whatsoever after the incident & (b) not really but it has, for me, left an unjustifiable stain on his career. Certains incidents i.e. Adelaide & Austria can be justified, Rascasse just can't, it was a really cheap error especially after everything.

Its the tendency of him to cheat/drive in an unfair manner that caused me to never really take to him although i never doubted his abilty and tended me to think well he's the best out there anyways so he should be WDC

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#16502 Boing 2

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Posted 09 January 2012 - 18:25

and?

in 2007 was Alonso the only WDC on track... the year was full with bad drivers?



there is no logic in your post.

the number of drivers with WDC said nothing about the quality of the driverfield, only in the last years more differnt driver won a title.


2007 the top 4 results were 110, 109, 109, 94 points.

1994 the top 4 results were 92, 91, 41, 26 points. (with the leader disqualified from 4 races)

I think its fair to say that the logical conclusion was that there was more competition for the 07 title.

Edited by Boing 2, 09 January 2012 - 18:29.


#16503 cheapracer

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Posted 09 January 2012 - 18:27

Next year there will be 6 world champions on the grid and at a rough count 11 race winners. At one point in 94 there were 0 world champions and a mere 3 race winners and one of those was Schumacher!

Not just that but last year there were 4 world champions and six race winners in the 6 fastest cars on the track. Thats a bit tougher to win that just Hill Vs Schumacher every weekend.


And?? :confused:

I can only answer that by saying you just don't know much about those eras of which you speak.


The man blatantly cheats to the extent that he is even punished for it



???? WTF is that? WTF does that mean?


#16504 Boing 2

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Posted 09 January 2012 - 18:33

And?? :confused:

I can only answer that by saying you just don't know much about those eras of which you speak.


The logic is fairly simple, try re-reading it more slowly? Don't know what else i can say. :confused:

???? WTF is that? WTF does that mean?


All I can offer is my sincerest sympathies for your condition and this.

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Good luck.

#16505 krea

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Posted 09 January 2012 - 18:35

2007 the top 4 results were 110, 109, 109, 94 points.

1994 the top 4 results were 92, 91, 41, 26 points. (with the leader disqualified from 4 races)

I think its fair to say that the logical conclusion was that there was more competition for the 07 title.


is not a logical conlusion

you can't say nothing about the quality of the driverfield if you just compare the points gap.

#16506 cheapracer

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Posted 09 January 2012 - 18:39

he showed no remorse whatsoever after the incident


?? There must be something in the air tonight, is there a full moon by chance?


You may be amazed at this Mate but I also show no remorse when I have done nothing wrong - did you happen to see any of his interviews afterwards, did you see his seething anger just after the punishment announcement, did you see him trying to get reverse after he bumped the wall, did you see the frustration in his hands after he bumped the wall trying to get Marshalls to help ....

If it was intentional why did he try to do anything when he came to a stop, why not just get out of the car immediately?

Hey, I accept the decision of the Umpire, that's the way I've been raised, shame a bunch here can't do the same in other cases.

You guys have any comments on his other 280+ races or is half a dozen "questionable" ones satisfactory for you to make judgements?


#16507 cheapracer

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Posted 09 January 2012 - 18:43

The logic is fairly simple, try re-reading it more slowly? Don't know what else i can say. :confused:



Apparently a few other posters are confused by your posts as well, maybe you should review them yourself?




#16508 Boing 2

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Posted 09 January 2012 - 18:44

is not a logical conlusion

you can't say nothing about the quality of the driverfield if you just compare the points gap.


Depend on what you're discussing, the level of driving talent or the actual competition for the title? you could have a grid full of talent but if thay all have crap cars there's no competition for the title. That's why last year was so immense, 6 bloody good drivers in 6 race winning cars. There may have been fast guys in the mid nineties like Hakkinnen and Alesi but they were in poor machinery and therefore no threat or competition for the title.

#16509 Group B

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Posted 09 January 2012 - 18:49

Depend on what you're discussing, the level of driving talent or the actual competition for the title? you could have a grid full of talent but if thay all have crap cars there's no competition for the title. That's why last year was so immense, 6 bloody good drivers in 6 race winning cars. There may have been fast guys in the mid nineties like Hakkinnen and Alesi but they were in poor machinery and therefore no threat or competition for the title.

Well, Alesi got to swap cars with Michael and it didn't do him much good.

#16510 DutchCruijff

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Posted 09 January 2012 - 18:50

?? There must be something in the air tonight, is there a full moon by chance?


You may be amazed at this Mate but I also show no remorse when I have done nothing wrong - did you happen to see any of his interviews afterwards, did you see his seething anger just after the punishment announcement, did you see him trying to get reverse after he bumped the wall, did you see the frustration in his hands after he bumped the wall trying to get Marshalls to help ....

If it was intentional why did he try to do anything when he came to a stop, why not just get out of the car immediately?

Hey, I accept the decision of the Umpire, that's the way I've been raised, shame a bunch here can't do the same in other cases.

You guys have any comments on his other 280+ races or is half a dozen "questionable" ones satisfactory for you to make judgements?

Michael is a smart guy, you're a smart guy, do you expect him to cheat in front of the world without acting? Without trying to show urgency?

Again, check the line he takes into the corner & his steering wheel movement towards the wall. He cheated and I'm extremely surprised there are people who are defending him.

#16511 Boing 2

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Posted 09 January 2012 - 19:03

2004 Rascasse

2006 Rascasse

Posted Image

The man's not even trying to get on the right line. I call shenanigans.

Edited by Boing 2, 09 January 2012 - 19:29.


#16512 Boing 2

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Posted 09 January 2012 - 19:04

Well, Alesi got to swap cars with Michael and it didn't do him much good.


I didn't think Alesi raced the 95 Bennetton? :confused:

#16513 Group B

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Posted 09 January 2012 - 19:05

Michael is a smart guy, you're a smart guy, do you expect him to cheat in front of the world without acting? Without trying to show urgency?

Again, check the line he takes into the corner & his steering wheel movement towards the wall. He cheated and I'm extremely surprised there are people who are defending him.

I'm not quite sure what point you're trying to make; there was an enormous thread on this at the time, and you're (supposedly) an MS fan, so why the great urge to drag it up now?

And no, I'm not defending him, just curious.

#16514 Group B

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Posted 09 January 2012 - 19:10

I didn't think Alesi raced the 95 Bennetton? :confused:

Oh please, don't be obtuse. Either it was a mighty big coincidence or Michael was making the difference.

#16515 cheapracer

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Posted 09 January 2012 - 19:14

Michael is a smart guy, you're a smart guy, do you expect him to cheat in front of the world without acting? Without trying to show urgency?

Again, check the line he takes into the corner & his steering wheel movement towards the wall. He cheated and I'm extremely surprised there are people who are defending him.


Does that include forcing the wheel as hard as he can with 2 hands to the right trying to miss the wall at the end does it?

Here's what actually happened, the rears locked, he got very sideways, correction on, car straightens up, turns right again on the marbles, feels tail start to move again, corrects for a bare moment but no slide happens, turns full right again but has run out of room.

The killer for you is the force he used with his left hand at the very end instinctively trying to get that wheel that was on the lock stops around even further around when that wall was drawing in.

I have an interesting idea, I know a body language expert (police force) here who doesn't understand English and wouldn't know FA about F1 and nothing about this incident - I might see if I can arrange for him to watch the interviews and make a judgement.

FWIW I am not a big Senna fan but I have defended him from the moment he and Prost connected at Japan (the first time, both McLarens) - because he was not at fault and nothing to do with idol'ism.


#16516 cheapracer

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Posted 09 January 2012 - 19:17

Oh please, don't be obtuse. Either it was a mighty big coincidence or Michael was making the difference.


I could show the tape again where Flavio stands up in front of Berger and Alesi and states to the audience that Schumacher is the best driver out there :lol:


#16517 Boing 2

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Posted 09 January 2012 - 19:26

Oh please, don't be obtuse. Either it was a mighty big coincidence or Michael was making the difference.


There are many options to choose from, In 95 Hill fell apart and threw away race wins and Coulthard showed little willingness to engage Schumacher (a la Hockenhiem) maybe the 96 Williams with 96 spec Hill and Villeneuve was a stronger competitor than 95 and didn't leave as many gaps open. Maybe Bennetton was less competitive, we know they lost their tech team midway through the season. Maybe Schumacher was a better driver than Alesi, I certainly wouldn't deny that he was far from complete. (The 97 Bennetton was yet another disaster from the pen of Nick Worth so lets leave that one alone.)

Maybe the truth is a mixture of all three but the point you seem to be trying to make is that Alesi had a good enough car in 94/95 to compete for the title but was just aced by Schumacher as a driver. If that's the case I need to point out that Alesi had 8 DNF's in 95, one more even than Schumachers abysmal 96 with 7 DNF's (his career worst) He had 6 DNF's in 94 from 14 races. To say it was Alesi's failure to compete for the 94/95 titles is like saying it was Schumachers failure he didn't compete in 96.

Edited by Boing 2, 09 January 2012 - 19:34.


#16518 Boing 2

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Posted 09 January 2012 - 19:33

Does that include forcing the wheel as hard as he can with 2 hands to the right trying to miss the wall at the end does it?

Here's what actually happened, the rears locked, he got very sideways, correction on, car straightens up, turns right again on the marbles, feels tail start to move again, corrects for a bare moment but no slide happens, turns full right again but has run out of room.

The killer for you is the force he used with his left hand at the very end instinctively trying to get that wheel that was on the lock stops around even further around when that wall was drawing in.

I have an interesting idea, I know a body language expert (police force) here who doesn't understand English and wouldn't know FA about F1 and nothing about this incident - I might see if I can arrange for him to watch the interviews and make a judgement.

FWIW I am not a big Senna fan but I have defended him from the moment he and Prost connected at Japan (the first time, both McLarens) - because he was not at fault and nothing to do with idol'ism.


Is it normal if you're trying to pretend to crash with an onboard camera watching you, to drive straight into a wall without moving the wheel?

Could you give me a screengrab of this moment where Schumacher is "very sideways" because it seems to have been edited out of the movie links I provided (probably by 'haters', those little monkeys!)


#16519 jj2728

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Posted 09 January 2012 - 19:40

Your first quality post.


Yeah? Well that gives me one more quality post than you...... :rolleyes:

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#16520 tifosiMac

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Posted 09 January 2012 - 19:44

The man's not even trying to get on the right line. I call shenanigans.

I don't think there are many people alive who would disagree with that being deliberate. Ross Brawn is the only person to my knowledge that has insinuated it was a deliberate tactic when he was interviewed when he first went to Honda. He said behind the scenes Michael was remorseful, and if I had the article I'd share it. Anyway thats an incident that he would not be proud of but there are plenty where he showed his greatness IMO.

#16521 jj2728

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Posted 09 January 2012 - 19:55

I'm not quite sure what point you're trying to make; there was an enormous thread on this at the time, and you're (supposedly) an MS fan, so why the great urge to drag it up now?
And no, I'm not defending him, just curious.


I'm curious too because now we have infighting amongst the Schumacher fans.....
This whole thread is gonna implode....
Hilarious.....keep it coming gang....... :rotfl:

#16522 Sakae

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Posted 09 January 2012 - 20:12

Are you seriously saying that anyone who claims they wouldn't blatantly cheat to win is a liar? Not all of us reside at that end of the moral spectrum you know.

All my life I deal with strict facts and rule of evidence. Unfortunately mere thought process seems to be good enough substitute in here for any decent analytical approach. At the end I am not certain what it is your are saying as it pertains to Monaco incident, other then giving me a lesson in morals.

I can assure you that other than a personal opinion I do not have any definite understanding regarding of any incident on the track, and it is for that reason alone, I am also not the one running around while using derisive language directed towards Schumacher. Maybe you have data on state of the equipment, interviewed Schumacher, talked to pitwall engineer, check the trajectories, and at the conclusion it is your expert judgement that Schumacher choosed poor option out of several available to him. I would appreciate if you have done all of that before you posted in here, but then, for some reason I doubt that you bothered. Your feelings are good enough (you think).

#16523 DutchCruijff

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Posted 09 January 2012 - 20:19

Does that include forcing the wheel as hard as he can with 2 hands to the right trying to miss the wall at the end does it?

Here's what actually happened, the rears locked, he got very sideways, correction on, car straightens up, turns right again on the marbles, feels tail start to move again, corrects for a bare moment but no slide happens, turns full right again but has run out of room.

The killer for you is the force he used with his left hand at the very end instinctively trying to get that wheel that was on the lock stops around even further around when that wall was drawing in.

I have an interesting idea, I know a body language expert (police force) here who doesn't understand English and wouldn't know FA about F1 and nothing about this incident - I might see if I can arrange for him to watch the interviews and make a judgement.

FWIW I am not a big Senna fan but I have defended him from the moment he and Prost connected at Japan (the first time, both McLarens) - because he was not at fault and nothing to do with idol'ism.

Now explain his extremely wayward entry.

#16524 DS27

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Posted 09 January 2012 - 20:51

Yeah? Well that gives me one more quality post than you...... :rolleyes:


I bet your dad's bigger than his as well.

#16525 sharo

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Posted 09 January 2012 - 21:02

:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

It's the off-season, I'm a MS fan, I'm instigating debate, I'm answering questions of my own, so I believe you're very much mistaken.

Off-season or not, those are things of the past.
2006 Monaco is not different than Monaco 2010. Both penalties were sucked out of FIA's fingers on dubious grounds.


#16526 George Costanza

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Posted 09 January 2012 - 21:25

There are many options to choose from, In 95 Hill fell apart and threw away race wins and Coulthard showed little willingness to engage Schumacher (a la Hockenhiem) maybe the 96 Williams with 96 spec Hill and Villeneuve was a stronger competitor than 95 and didn't leave as many gaps open. Maybe Bennetton was less competitive, we know they lost their tech team midway through the season. Maybe Schumacher was a better driver than Alesi, I certainly wouldn't deny that he was far from complete. (The 97 Bennetton was yet another disaster from the pen of Nick Worth so lets leave that one alone.)

Maybe the truth is a mixture of all three but the point you seem to be trying to make is that Alesi had a good enough car in 94/95 to compete for the title but was just aced by Schumacher as a driver. If that's the case I need to point out that Alesi had 8 DNF's in 95, one more even than Schumachers abysmal 96 with 7 DNF's (his career worst) He had 6 DNF's in 94 from 14 races. To say it was Alesi's failure to compete for the 94/95 titles is like saying it was Schumachers failure he didn't compete in 96.



Michael would have won the 1996 and 1997 titles if he stayed with Benetton.... Brawn and Byrne were there in 1996; and probaly would have stayed in 1997. So, Schu would have been a four time WDC by the end of 1997. It had the same engine as the Williams; and we know Schu was the man to beat no matter what from 1995-1998.

#16527 mursuka80

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Posted 09 January 2012 - 21:26

Monaco 2010 was bullshit penalty. I was so mad, because i thought "Green flag, race". :mad:

#16528 DutchCruijff

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Posted 09 January 2012 - 21:41

Off-season or not, those are things of the past.
2006 Monaco is not different than Monaco 2010. Both penalties were sucked out of FIA's fingers on dubious grounds.

So I can't discuss things of the past to answers questions of my own?

#16529 mursuka80

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Posted 09 January 2012 - 21:49

So I can't discuss things of the past to answers questions of my own?


Do you want this thread to turn into an flamewar?

#16530 DutchCruijff

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Posted 09 January 2012 - 22:07

Do you want this thread to turn into an flamewar?

No, as I specifically stated that the question to be for Schumacher fans to avoid a flamewar.

#16531 spa08

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Posted 09 January 2012 - 22:13

Michael would have won the 1996 and 1997 titles if he stayed with Benetton.... Brawn and Byrne were there in 1996; and probaly would have stayed in 1997. So, Schu would have been a four time WDC by the end of 1997. It had the same engine as the Williams; and we know Schu was the man to beat no matter what from 1995-1998.


Nice to imagine but very doubtful

#16532 George Costanza

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Posted 10 January 2012 - 01:14

Nice to imagine but very doubtful



How is that doubtful?

Schu would have won the titles in 1996 and 1997 in the Benetton. He nearly won it for Ferrari in 1997.

#16533 Raelene

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Posted 10 January 2012 - 02:14

I have no problem with Monaco...it was tactical... no different from in the days of SC's where a driver would leave his car in the middle of the track after a start line accident, so there would be a restart and they couyld jump into the spare car...

#16534 jj2728

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Posted 10 January 2012 - 02:50

I have no problem with Monaco...it was tactical... no different from in the days of SC's where a driver would leave his car in the middle of the track after a start line accident, so there would be a restart and they couyld jump into the spare car...


Oh really? Please give us some examples....
Enlighten us.....

#16535 Raelene

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Posted 10 January 2012 - 02:53

did you watch in the days of spare cars? If so, I don't need to give you examples

#16536 jj2728

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Posted 10 January 2012 - 02:56

did you watch in the days of spare cars? If so, I don't need to give you examples


Lol...spare cars?
Try again. Cite me one example at Monaco.....please........

Edited by jj2728, 10 January 2012 - 03:06.


#16537 Craven Morehead

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Posted 10 January 2012 - 03:15

Monaco 2010 was bullshit penalty. I was so mad, because i thought "Green flag, race". :mad:


agreed :up:

#16538 Raelene

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Posted 10 January 2012 - 03:57

Lol...spare cars?
Try again. Cite me one example at Monaco.....please........


NOT SURE WHY YOU ARE SUCH A SMART ARSE...but let me explain

I didn't say it (the spare car example) was at Monaco... I said what MS did was TACTICAL...I then compared it to when they used spare cars, you do remember those days. and that after a crash at the start of the race, a driver could just leave his car where it was, ie TACTICS - so that the race would be restarted and he could jump into the spare car. You see, if he had of rolled the car off the track, then the race would not be restarted, therefore he couldn't jump into the spare car.

I was comparing the TACTICS....not too hard to understand surely?

Edited by Raelene, 10 January 2012 - 04:40.


#16539 DanardiF1

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Posted 10 January 2012 - 06:49

Monaco 2010 was bullshit penalty. I was so mad, because i thought "Green flag, race". :mad:


+1

It was a flash of genius that caught everyone by surprise... Classic Michael. Unfortunately it caught the stewards by surprise, and they didn't like that, so they gave him the bullshit penalty as you so aptly describe it!

Why throw the green flag unless you want a scramble for the line where places could be made up? Especially at Monaco where overtaking is so tough. That's what made it even better, that it was on Alonso going into one of the most narrow corners in F1 at Antony Noghes!

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#16540 spa08

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Posted 10 January 2012 - 07:10

How is that doubtful?

Schu would have won the titles in 1996 and 1997 in the Benetton. He nearly won it for Ferrari in 1997.


Believe what you want my friend  ;)

#16541 Madras

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Posted 10 January 2012 - 08:03

Schu would have won 1999 if he hadnt broken his leg.

Edited by Madras, 10 January 2012 - 08:03.


#16542 Raelene

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Posted 10 January 2012 - 08:20

Believe what you want my friend ;)


why do you think he couldn't have won it had he stayed?

i certainly also believe he probably would have won (and again in 99)

#16543 walkindude

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Posted 10 January 2012 - 08:44

An attempt to stop the bickering around here.A pretty nice interview from 2002.

http://videa.hu/vide...tMuYgIg09NAv9JN

#16544 Group B

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Posted 10 January 2012 - 09:02

Good stuff, thanks. :up:

#16545 Boing 2

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Posted 10 January 2012 - 10:19

I don't think there are many people alive who would disagree with that being deliberate. Ross Brawn is the only person to my knowledge that has insinuated it was a deliberate tactic when he was interviewed when he first went to Honda. He said behind the scenes Michael was remorseful, and if I had the article I'd share it. Anyway thats an incident that he would not be proud of but there are plenty where he showed his greatness IMO.


That's fair enough, I wouldn't argue the guy had plenty of great drives, I simply run out of patience with those who blame all his flaws on others.

#16546 tifosiMac

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Posted 10 January 2012 - 10:20

That's fair enough, I wouldn't argue the guy had plenty of great drives, I simply run out of patience with those who blame all his flaws on others.

Well thats fair enough too but they are only cheating themselves in that case, and it really shouldn't annoy you. :)

#16547 Boing 2

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Posted 10 January 2012 - 10:38

When I see a driver doing something obviously dirty and see a poster criticise him for it only to be labelled a racist/hater/basher/sore loser etc I think that goes beyond people cheating themselves. At that point they are abusing other people to deflect deserved criticism from their favoured driver which I don't have a lot of time for.

#16548 tifosiMac

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Posted 10 January 2012 - 10:51

Hamilton impressed with Button 'team'
http://www.crash.net...tm_campaign=rss

Just to confirm how important driver teams are for one driver to beat other guy. So, a lot depend from the team you have.

But thats just an article that quotes the original Autosport articles which has been extensively discussed this last week. Crash.net seem to pick quotes and write articles about them as though they are new stories and in this case it isn't. Not that this is the place to discuss it, but Both Lewis and Jenson have been complimentary concerning how they approach the sport and its nice to see Lewis acknowledging Jenson's successfull integration in the team.

#16549 ivand911

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Posted 10 January 2012 - 11:16

But thats just an article that quotes the original Autosport articles which has been extensively discussed this last week. Crash.net seem to pick quotes and write articles about them as though they are new stories and in this case it isn't. Not that this is the place to discuss it, but Both Lewis and Jenson have been complimentary concerning how they approach the sport and its nice to see Lewis acknowledging Jenson's successfull integration in the team.

I mean the driver team plays role in the battle between drivers. It is one team against other team. So, not everything depend from the driver. One part of team work is car setup.

Edited by ivand911, 10 January 2012 - 11:17.


#16550 Sakae

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Posted 10 January 2012 - 12:31

Hamilton impressed with Button 'team'
http://www.crash.net...tm_campaign=rss

Just to confirm how important driver teams are for one driver to beat other guy. So, a lot depend from the team you have.

Yeah, a lot of love at McLaren these days. Was it the same when Alonso was there? So Button had nice technical team around him, and Hami did not? What the shame.