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#16801 ivand911

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Posted 03 February 2012 - 17:15

I think this year we will see if Qualy situation will stay the same.

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#16802 Afterburner

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Posted 03 February 2012 - 17:31

How can it be a "direct consequence" when they are avoidable accidents?

It's a direct consequence of the increased risk of collision that is inherent with starting closer to the back of the grid. Don't you think it's less likely he would've collided with those drivers if he had started closer to the front of the grid?

Bad wording on my part in the previous post, though--sorry. :well:

Getting run over isn't a direct consequence of walking across the road with your eyes shut, but it does make it a lot more likely.

:rotfl:

#16803 DutchCruijff

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Posted 03 February 2012 - 21:19

So it's the fault of the strategists that Schumacher ended up humping Perez and is it there fault also that he was so eager to pull off a move on Senna?

#16804 DutchCruijff

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Posted 03 February 2012 - 21:19

http://www.planet-f1...humacher-to-win

"I would like to think, before Michael retires for the second time, that he will win a Grand Prix - and, if he won a Grand Prix for Mercedes-Benz, what a celebration that would be. Michael Schumacher at the end of 2011 was doing a very, very good job. There are people in Formula 1 who are...let's describe them as 'ready to put the boot in'...some of them remember Michael when he was an active racing driver. It was difficult to make a comeback; he came into a team and a car that was not structured around him, he didn't have the benefit of all the goodies that he had at Ferrari like limitless testing and a tyre basically designed around his and the car's requirements. But also, there are a number of drivers like Sebastian Vettel and Lewis who he had never raced against; suddenly, he'd got these youngsters who don't give a damn about Michael Schumacher! It was difficult."

:D

#16805 Afterburner

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Posted 03 February 2012 - 21:54

So it's the fault of the strategists that Schumacher ended up humping Perez and is it there fault also that he was so eager to pull off a move on Senna?

The incident with Perez was Schumi's fault, but the incident with B. Senna wasn't. Both incidents, however, could have possibly been avoided if he had started from a better grid position; in the end, I suppose it depends on how much control/influence Michael had over his race strategy.

EDIT: Just read the article by the way--I hope 2012 will be a rewarding year after the last two, as well. :D

Edited by Afterburner, 03 February 2012 - 21:55.


#16806 Schumacher7

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Posted 03 February 2012 - 22:10

The incident with Perez was Schumi's fault, but the incident with B. Senna wasn't. Both incidents, however, could have possibly been avoided if he had started from a better grid position; in the end, I suppose it depends on how much control/influence Michael had over his race strategy.

EDIT: Just read the article by the way--I hope 2012 will be a rewarding year after the last two, as well. :D

Could just as easily been avoided if Schumacher hadn't driven into the back of Perez and had left a bit more room on Senna, I think what he's saying is that just because he got a poor result doesn't mean the strategy was bad/wrong, they could have been very fruitful if a bit more care had been taken, the error was in Michael's driving not the strategy.

#16807 MikeTekRacing

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Posted 03 February 2012 - 23:49

or in Bruno's driving.

every incident can be avoided by both of the drivers. that doesn't mean they're both at fault

#16808 Schumacher7

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Posted 04 February 2012 - 00:24

or in Bruno's driving.

every incident can be avoided by both of the drivers. that doesn't mean they're both at fault

If that's aimed at me then it's not relevant to what I said at all, I was saying a bad result does not indicate bad strategy, I wasn't saying whatever it is you're countering.

#16809 dav115

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Posted 04 February 2012 - 01:08

I don't get why this crap about Schumacher getting custom made tyres keeps popping up every so often. I don't see anyone pointing out how Michelin was in bed with Renault in its last years in F1, and how they also enjoyed getting data from every other decent team on the grid except Ferrari. When Schumacher in his Benetton was dicing with Senna and Mansell in his 4th GP start in Spain '91 in wet conditions was that down to having custom tailored tyres?

#16810 Sakae

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Posted 04 February 2012 - 02:18

Welcome to my world; I am asking the same (or similar questions) since his Bennetton days when media took notice of him.

Edited by Sakae, 04 February 2012 - 02:21.


#16811 Kubiccia

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Posted 04 February 2012 - 03:36

But, the thing is I neither like nor dislike Schumacher and I feel the same way towards the rest of the field. I respect them for what they do, I consider each to be sportsmen, but my days of hero worship died many long years ago when I saw far too many of my own heroes killed. I don't rate Schumacher in my top 5 because of his past actions and the fact that he never had a teammate capable of or allowed to challenge him. Nothing wrong with that, he built a dominating Ferrari team around him, and hat's off for that, but no, at the very top of my personal best list? No.

Irvine was a great driver, if you look what he done in Jordan. Same with Barrichello.

Brundle, Patrese were never considered bad drivers and Massa proved to be quite a good driver compared to Kimi previous to his accident.

Still, all of them were trashed by Schumacher. I wonder if you think Ferrari boycotted their cars?

Schumacher was usually a full second quicker than Brundle and Patrese and sometimes this would go even over 2 seconds in some tracks, qualifying-wise. In the Ferrari years, the cars were already getting too easy to drive and was harder to see very big gaps between team mates but still Schumacher was usually way quicker than Irvine and Barrichello and half second was normal gap between them.

Against Massa in 2006 there is a thing which might confuse some people because of different fuel loads in qualifying. Massa made pole in Turkey, Suzuka and Brazil, but that was because of less fuel(in Brazils's case Schumacher had problem for Q3) and in Q2 Schumacher beaten Massa by very big margins such as 1,2 seconds to Massa in Turkey's Q2, 0,9 seconds in Suzuka and a smaller margin of 3 tenths in Brazil. Just examples in places where Massa started ahead but still was slower ultimately.

Have Benetton and Ferrari always given different machineries to Schumacher's team mates?

Apart from that, I agree with you about Schumi's 2010/2011 qualifying jj2728. It's being poor most of the time and we can't use excuses of saving tires and etc. Schumacher should have done much better regardless of saving tires or not. Many times he had trouble to pass to Q3 and most of them he passed as 9/10th.

From my memory, only in Monaco, Canada, Valencia, Suzuka and Singapore that Schumacher passed Q2 easily.

Edited by Kubiccia, 04 February 2012 - 03:44.


#16812 Kubiccia

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Posted 04 February 2012 - 04:09

Fair enough, but the point is that collisions like those are always more likely in the midfield, espicially for a guy like Michael who is quicker on race pace. And that has to be factored in when considering whether something is a 'good strategy'.

Besides which I'm still not convinced it was all strategy, the burning of extra sets to get through Q1 and the general gap to Nico in Q2 suggested to me that Michael was really struggling to get as much pace over the single lap than his team mate. Michaels long run pace was much, much better, but I still think there was something within his driving not allowing him to really get the car working properly over the hot laps.

perfect.

The lack of speed in qualifying is definitely not strategy related, or at least not exclusively. Only in the few tracks I mentioned in the previous post ist that Schumi passed through Q2 easily.

I think this year we will see if Qualy situation will stay the same.

It will probably gets worse as Schumi is 2 years older than when he returned which was already an advanced age for a racing driver.

I don't get why this crap about Schumacher getting custom made tyres keeps popping up every so often. I don't see anyone pointing out how Michelin was in bed with Renault in its last years in F1, and how they also enjoyed getting data from every other decent team on the grid except Ferrari. When Schumacher in his Benetton was dicing with Senna and Mansell in his 4th GP start in Spain '91 in wet conditions was that down to having custom tailored tyres?

Best post I read in quite some while. Schumacher's best drives were in Benetton, imo. There, he had no super car, no custom tires, no super engines and etc. It was pure skill.

The example you mentioned is epic, Schumacher and Senna both spun alone in the end of the race but that doesn't erase the fact that Schumacher was faster than all of them in some parts of that race and the gap between Mclaren and Williams to Benetton was ridiculous huge that year.

For those who never saw it, here you can see it with your own eyes:


As some additional info, Schumacher had very few mileage with F1 cars by that time but still qualified 1 second faster than his old team mate, 3 times WDC champion, 39 year's old Nelson Piquet.

#16813 steveninthematrix

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Posted 04 February 2012 - 04:14

"the tallest tree catches the most wind"

91 wins, 7 WDC, i.e. more than the rest of the grid put together......

is Michael as good as he was in his early 30's, probably not........ is he good enough to be on the grid and do what he loves, which is compete? ask Mr Brawn and Mr Haug.

those who love to criticize and whine and act like experts, go ahead, demonstrate that you've never accomplished anything in life... all fine, to the rest of you, who doesn't want to see Michael get one podium at least this year? just hope with everyone testing immediately, Merc have something in their sleeves and can compete with Ferrari/Redbull/Mclaren

#16814 DutchCruijff

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Posted 04 February 2012 - 08:35

So you're basing your comments on a whim that Michael Schumacher - a 7 x WDC, the most extraordinary talent the sport has ever seen - was cheating because he was much faster than his team-mates? Okay then...

You know the last person who said something like this was Jos and we all know what's happened to him. :rotfl:

#16815 BRK

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Posted 04 February 2012 - 09:58

I don't get why this crap about Schumacher getting custom made tyres keeps popping up every so often. I don't see anyone pointing out how Michelin was in bed with Renault in its last years in F1, and how they also enjoyed getting data from every other decent team on the grid except Ferrari. When Schumacher in his Benetton was dicing with Senna and Mansell in his 4th GP start in Spain '91 in wet conditions was that down to having custom tailored tyres?


Because Schumacher is the man they fear the most and was perceived as the biggest threat. They know he was head and shoulders above the rest in terms of talent; it would be quite silly to not acknowledge this as they would in effect have been calling the vast majority of neutral observers idiots, so they switched to plan B.  ;)

If you really believed a driver was\is not as good as he's made out to be, it'd make more sense to let their career do the talking and turn a blind eye if you really disliked them, instead of spending more time discussing said driver than your own idol. :lol:

#16816 FenderJaguar

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Posted 04 February 2012 - 10:26

My personal opinion on why a lot of people doesn't rate Michael Schumacher as the best in F1:s history.

1. Michael Schumacher is a great driver but a driver more related to Jackie Stewart, Niki Lauda and Alain Prost. It's teambuilding and smartness. It's not Clark and Senna. I am not saying Clark and Senna is necessarily better I just say it is different so people think differently depending on what they want.

2. The Ferrari dominance. When Michael Schumacher won his titles from 2000-2004 making it a total of 7 world titles. How much was the driving ability and how much was getting the Ferrari to be so superior? Does anybody care about 7 titles in an age where a driver can go on for 20 years where in the old days drivers were lucky if they survived 5-6 seasons?

3. The number one status. Let Michael through for the championship. OK - so it wasn't that many times but there were a couple of ridiculous moments.

You can rate Michael Schumacher differently depending on how you look at F1, what you want from F1 and what you want in a F1 driver. If you look at the combination car and driver then he and Ferrari was the most dominating and best force we have seen. But that people think differently and have the right to think differently is natural.


#16817 FenderJaguar

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Posted 04 February 2012 - 10:30

Because Schumacher is the man they fear the most and was perceived as the biggest threat. They know he was head and shoulders above the rest in terms of talent...


This is really far from the truth. I don't think Nico is worried about Schumacher.

Edited by FenderJaguar, 04 February 2012 - 10:30.


#16818 BRK

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Posted 04 February 2012 - 11:22


This is really far from the truth. I don't think Nico is worried about Schumacher.


I don't see how that us relevant to what I posted. Nico Rosberg is not worried about a 43-year old Schumacher in his second career...and?


As for Clark, I believe it was Surtees that had this to say about him: "“Jimmy was not a mixer – he didn’t like to mix it – and if he didn’t feel he had a slight edge somewhere I feel he got very agitated. I don’t agree with the general view that he was invariably a tiger."

Clark's mechanic Cedric Selzer also seems to agree with that opinion, there's an article about the interview in last month's autosport, I think. Clark won his titles in the best cars in the field and with teammates that were far from being considered great.

Now why must I consider a driver who had his most success starting from the front in pole in the best cars, was apparently insecure about heading into a race without an edge over his competitors, whose reputation as a great fighter -if Surtees is to be believed- a myth, and who was better at blasting away from the front without having to get involved in wheel to wheel battles unlike Schumacher -a great? You're always going to have people that believe a truly great and proper racing driver must also be good at racing (pop into the Sebastian Vettel thread for a taster :lol:) , not just streaking away from the front in a quick car.

Therefore, by your logic, Clark was really rubbish and not a complete racing driver. You could apply the same flawed logic to Senna's career and draw the same conclusions. Stewart didn't include Senna in his list of greats as in his opinion he crashed way too often, I'm sure there are people that could and would take this to the extreme and argue he was never really a great.

There's dirt to be found if you look hard enough. Thankfully these are, as I said earlier, only the opinions of a very small minority whom nobody pays much attention to. :yawnface:


#16819 spacekid

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Posted 04 February 2012 - 12:02

This is really far from the truth. I don't think Nico is worried about Schumacher.


So you honestly think Michael in 2011 has lost no speed or ability compared to 1995? Really?

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#16820 FenderJaguar

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Posted 04 February 2012 - 12:11

Ah people - you know what I mean. Probably.

#16821 jj2728

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Posted 04 February 2012 - 13:18

Irvine was a great driver, if you look what he done in Jordan. Same with Barrichello.

Brundle, Patrese were never considered bad drivers and Massa proved to be quite a good driver compared to Kimi previous to his accident.

Still, all of them were trashed by Schumacher. I wonder if you think Ferrari boycotted their cars?


All of the above drivers were good, but never great. And of course I don't think that Ferrari boycotted their cars, but Schumacher clearly had number 1 status and when that number one status came into play, using Austria 2002 as an example, well we all know what happened.

#16822 DutchCruijff

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Posted 04 February 2012 - 13:26

Jesus Christ, I supposed his No.1 status really helped him out in the US, Italy, Hungarian & European GP. He finished less .5 second behind him in each race, setting fast laps in the closing stages as a clear statement, please for God's sake, don't bring up Austria again when Schumacher gifted him 4 wins in the same season.

#16823 jj2728

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Posted 04 February 2012 - 13:34

As for Clark, I believe it was Surtees that had this to say about him: "“Jimmy was not a mixer – he didn’t like to mix it – and if he didn’t feel he had a slight edge somewhere I feel he got very agitated. I don’t agree with the general view that he was invariably a tiger."
Clark's mechanic Cedric Selzer also seems to agree with that opinion, there's an article about the interview in last month's autosport, I think. Clark won his titles in the best cars in the field and with teammates that were far from being considered great.
Now why must I consider a driver who had his most success starting from the front in pole in the best cars, was apparently insecure about heading into a race without an edge over his competitors, whose reputation as a great fighter -if Surtees is to be believed- a myth, and who was better at blasting away from the front without having to get involved in wheel to wheel battles unlike Schumacher -a great? You're always going to have people that believe a truly great and proper racing driver must also be good at racing (pop into the Sebastian Vettel thread for a taster :lol:) , not just streaking away from the front in a quick car.


With regards to Clark being a fighter, witness Monza 1967. Witness the fact that he hated Spa, where he'd seen 2 of his friends, one of them a teammate, killed during the 1960 Belgian GP and another, Moss, seriously injured, yet he won there 4 times. He was competitive and a winner in many forms of motorsport. He won the Indy 500, he competed in NASCAR, sports cars, touring cars. In 1963 and 1965 he probably had the best car, and knowing Colin Chapman's propensity for pushing the envelope the most fragile, but Schumacher too had years in which his Ferrari was clearly the most dominate.

#16824 rolf123

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Posted 04 February 2012 - 13:36

Don't forget that in the days of Schumi and Rubens at Ferrari, tyres were allocated to a team and not a driver. Ferrari would assign Barichello to gather the bulk of the tyre data in practise and leave Schumi with the best rubber options for the race. That's a simple fact.

#16825 jj2728

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Posted 04 February 2012 - 13:45

Jesus Christ, I supposed his No.1 status really helped him out in the US, Italy, Hungarian & European GP. He finished less .5 second behind him in each race, setting fast laps in the closing stages as a clear statement, please for God's sake, don't bring up Austria again when Schumacher gifted him 4 wins in the same season.


Number one status did not matter by the time they got to those races as he already had the championship wrapped up by France. The USGP was a fiasco anyhow.

#16826 DutchCruijff

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Posted 04 February 2012 - 14:00

Number one status did not matter by the time they got to those races as he already had the championship wrapped up by France. The USGP was a fiasco anyhow.

So why it bring it up if it did not matter to Barrichello, trailing by 50 points, who was already out of the title race? Quite clear your post had an underlying message

Did he No.1 status? Yes
Did he deserve No.1 status? Yes, he was faster and more consistent than Barrichello with the same equipment
Was he right to exercise his No.1 status? Yes, considering he had to consolidate his 1st place in the Championship race & Barrichello was all but out.
Was he a good sport when he repaid Barrichello four-fold by gifting him wins in Italy, USA, Hungary & Germany? Very much so.

#16827 Sakae

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Posted 04 February 2012 - 15:05

Don't forget that in the days of Schumi and Rubens at Ferrari, tyres were allocated to a team and not a driver. Ferrari would assign Barichello to gather the bulk of the tyre data in practise and leave Schumi with the best rubber options for the race. That's a simple fact.

Not that it matters much one way or another, but just from curiosity, how do you know this to state it as a fact? I am Michael's big fan, however this tire allocation story is news to me.

#16828 Poep

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Posted 04 February 2012 - 15:42

Michael Schumacher is the best driver of all time :kiss:

#16829 ivand911

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Posted 04 February 2012 - 16:23

Michael Schumacher is the best driver of all time :kiss:

We know. :wave:


#16830 hammibal

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Posted 04 February 2012 - 19:30

Irvine was a great driver, if you look what he done in Jordan. Same with Barrichello.

Brundle, Patrese were never considered bad drivers and Massa proved to be quite a good driver compared to Kimi previous to his accident.

Still, all of them were trashed by Schumacher. I wonder if you think Ferrari boycotted their cars?

Schumacher was usually a full second quicker than Brundle and Patrese and sometimes this would go even over 2 seconds in some tracks, qualifying-wise. In the Ferrari years, the cars were already getting too easy to drive and was harder to see very big gaps between team mates but still Schumacher was usually way quicker than Irvine and Barrichello and half second was normal gap between them.

Against Massa in 2006 there is a thing which might confuse some people because of different fuel loads in qualifying. Massa made pole in Turkey, Suzuka and Brazil, but that was because of less fuel(in Brazils's case Schumacher had problem for Q3) and in Q2 Schumacher beaten Massa by very big margins such as 1,2 seconds to Massa in Turkey's Q2, 0,9 seconds in Suzuka and a smaller margin of 3 tenths in Brazil. Just examples in places where Massa started ahead but still was slower ultimately.

Have Benetton and Ferrari always given different machineries to Schumacher's team mates?

Apart from that, I agree with you about Schumi's 2010/2011 qualifying jj2728. It's being poor most of the time and we can't use excuses of saving tires and etc. Schumacher should have done much better regardless of saving tires or not. Many times he had trouble to pass to Q3 and most of them he passed as 9/10th.

From my memory, only in Monaco, Canada, Valencia, Suzuka and Singapore that Schumacher passed Q2 easily.

Most of the post is good but you overate some of the drivers, Irvine left Ferrari to join the new Jaguar team but was unable to upstage an inexperienced Pedro de la Rosa, Brundle got similarly hammered by Hakkinen, Patrese got similarly hammered by Mansell, and of course Massa is getting easily beaten by Alonso. His two strongest teammates i would say were Piquet and Barrichello, Barrichello i would say was about 2 to 3 tenths slower than Schumacher, but he then went onto get beaten by Button when it mattered, and an ageing Piquet was probably past his best.

However i cant deny that post Senna Schumacher was the best but maybe the competition wasnt the best.

#16831 Kubiccia

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Posted 04 February 2012 - 21:59

Most of the post is good but you overate some of the drivers, Irvine left Ferrari to join the new Jaguar team but was unable to upstage an inexperienced Pedro de la Rosa, Brundle got similarly hammered by Hakkinen, Patrese got similarly hammered by Mansell, and of course Massa is getting easily beaten by Alonso. His two strongest teammates i would say were Piquet and Barrichello, Barrichello i would say was about 2 to 3 tenths slower than Schumacher, but he then went onto get beaten by Button when it mattered, and an ageing Piquet was probably past his best.

However i cant deny that post Senna Schumacher was the best but maybe the competition wasnt the best.


I'm not sure about the actual figures of HakkinenVS Brundle but eventhough Mika beaten Martin very often, I think the gap was not as big as in SchumacherXBrundle case. Regarding Patrese, yes he was beaten the same by Mansell with the enormous gaps but only in 92 where some people says Nigel had more strengh in the arm to cope with the active suspension car or whatever it was. Anyway, in 91, Patrese beaten Mansell most of the times in qualifying and even got some pole positions. About Massa, it's true that Alonso is proving to be much better as Schumi did. Speaking now about Barrichello, the average gap might be on the 3 tenths region but often in "driver's track" such as Spa, Suzuka, Monaco, Schumacher would be like 1 second faster than Rubens, and this is something nobody else ever managed to do with Rubens, not even Button.

Finally about Piquet, yeah he was old and even mentioned that very explicitely to show some people here, who think age doesn't affect, that we never saw aged drivers demonstrate speed.

#16832 TheBunk

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Posted 04 February 2012 - 22:07

All of the above drivers were good, but never great. And of course I don't think that Ferrari boycotted their cars, but Schumacher clearly had number 1 status and when that number one status came into play, using Austria 2002 as an example, well we all know what happened.


Youd almost start to wonder why exactly Ferrari paid him 50 million a year. :wave:

#16833 jj2728

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Posted 04 February 2012 - 23:47

Youd almost start to wonder why exactly Ferrari paid him 50 million a year. :wave:


Well, they paid him 50 million a year or so to do exactly what he did, turn Ferrari's fortunes around. Of that there can be no denial.

#16834 MarioKart

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Posted 05 February 2012 - 01:14

Regarding Patrese, yes he was beaten the same by Mansell with the enormous gaps but only in 92 where some people says Nigel had more strengh in the arm to cope with the active suspension car or whatever it was. Anyway, in 91, Patrese beaten Mansell most of the times in qualifying and even got some pole positions.


It's not true that Nigel had the upper hand only in 92. You're right that Patrese beat Mansell in quali during the 91 season but even then Nigel won more races, and scored more points (5:2 wins, 72:53 points).
Moreover, you completely forgot about the 88' season. The Williams Judd FW12 had no reactive suspension system from Silverstone onward (Nigel was even against the idea at the time, and didn't like it) yet he was still undeniably quicker than Patrese in quali throughout the season (13:1 in the total 14 races they were teammates).

Therefore I beg to differ, it wasn't just upper body strength. Patrese was a very good driver,no doubt, but Mansell was simply faster and more successful in their 3 years together.



#16835 Kubiccia

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Posted 05 February 2012 - 03:05

It's not true that Nigel had the upper hand only in 92. You're right that Patrese beat Mansell in quali during the 91 season but even then Nigel won more races, and scored more points (5:2 wins, 72:53 points).
Moreover, you completely forgot about the 88' season. The Williams Judd FW12 had no reactive suspension system from Silverstone onward (Nigel was even against the idea at the time, and didn't like it) yet he was still undeniably quicker than Patrese in quali throughout the season (13:1 in the total 14 races they were teammates).

Therefore I beg to differ, it wasn't just upper body strength. Patrese was a very good driver,no doubt, but Mansell was simply faster and more successful in their 3 years together.

I agree with you, Mansell was faster regardless but I just pointed out that the imense gaps were in 92 where in some ocasions it was around 2 seconds, something which only Schumacher imposed to Patrese in 93 as well. Even though Nigel was faster than Ricardo, I suspect, something with the 92 really streched the gap.

Some days ago, I watched the 2nd qualifying for Silverstone in 93 again and Schumacher damaged his car and couldn't use the spare one so he had to wait Patrese do his 12 laps to use his car to qualify. Despite using Patrese's car, Schumacher qualified 2 seconds ahead of Ricardo which was a proof for me that the fight was fair, they were not boycottng Ricardo's car and the gap was really that big.

Patrese was not a bad driver, though. I think his 39 years, at the time, were making him maybe a second slower than his peak.

#16836 hammibal

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Posted 05 February 2012 - 03:32

I'm not sure about the actual figures of HakkinenVS Brundle but eventhough Mika beaten Martin very often, I think the gap was not as big as in SchumacherXBrundle case. Regarding Patrese, yes he was beaten the same by Mansell with the enormous gaps but only in 92 where some people says Nigel had more strengh in the arm to cope with the active suspension car or whatever it was. Anyway, in 91, Patrese beaten Mansell most of the times in qualifying and even got some pole positions. About Massa, it's true that Alonso is proving to be much better as Schumi did. Speaking now about Barrichello, the average gap might be on the 3 tenths region but often in "driver's track" such as Spa, Suzuka, Monaco, Schumacher would be like 1 second faster than Rubens, and this is something nobody else ever managed to do with Rubens, not even Button.

Finally about Piquet, yeah he was old and even mentioned that very explicitely to show some people here, who think age doesn't affect, that we never saw aged drivers demonstrate speed.

Just for the record i considered Schumacher to be the best driver for a good 10/11 year period but was somewhat disappointed by the teammates he had, i got use to seeing the best drivers duking it out, Prost v Rosberg, Prost v Senna, Prost v Mansell, Rosberg v Mansell. It was just part of his cv that was missing a bit, i was hoping he was going to stay on at Ferrari to pair up with Kimi in 2007, someone who wouldn't play second fiddle to him but unfortunately he retired.

#16837 as65p

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Posted 05 February 2012 - 08:40

Just for the record i considered Schumacher to be the best driver for a good 10/11 year period but was somewhat disappointed by the teammates he had, i got use to seeing the best drivers duking it out, Prost v Rosberg, Prost v Senna, Prost v Mansell, Rosberg v Mansell. It was just part of his cv that was missing a bit, i was hoping he was going to stay on at Ferrari to pair up with Kimi in 2007, someone who wouldn't play second fiddle to him but unfortunately he retired.


The irony is, in "hindsight", he could have had massive success in 2007/08, 2 further titles plus beating an equally treated and highly regarded teammate for the first time were definitely possible.

#16838 BRK

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Posted 05 February 2012 - 10:02

With regards to Clark being a fighter, witness Monza 1967. Witness the fact that he hated Spa, where he'd seen 2 of his friends, one of them a teammate, killed during the 1960 Belgian GP and another, Moss, seriously injured, yet he won there 4 times. He was competitive and a winner in many forms of motorsport. He won the Indy 500, he competed in NASCAR, sports cars, touring cars. In 1963 and 1965 he probably had the best car, and knowing Colin Chapman's propensity for pushing the envelope the most fragile, but Schumacher too had years in which his Ferrari was clearly the most dominate.


In other words, there isn't really anything to support the romantic notion that drivers like Clark were any better or even as good as Schumacher. Schumacher too had a dominant car in a couple of seasons, like Clark; Schumacher too was considered to be head and shoulders above the rest. They both had seasons where they flattered the car that their respective teammates found virtually undriveable.

Unlike Clark who spent his entire career at Lotus Schumacher was the central figure in bringing two teams to the top, and unlike Chapman's cars which won titles with drivers other than Clark, Rory Byrne's cars did not win a single title without Michael Schumacher at the wheel.

Just the sense of misplaced nostalgia that pervades a British dominated forum such as this. Reading some of the posts on TNF for instance you'd think drivers 'back in the day' would drive with one hand on the wheel and having a jolly good time sipping tea with the other.

#16839 DutchCruijff

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Posted 05 February 2012 - 11:03

Some days ago, I watched the 2nd qualifying for Silverstone in 93 again and Schumacher damaged his car and couldn't use the spare one so he had to wait Patrese do his 12 laps to use his car to qualify. Despite using Patrese's car, Schumacher qualified 2 seconds ahead of Ricardo which was a proof for me that the fight was fair, they were not boycottng Ricardo's car and the gap was really that big.


Have Benetton and Ferrari always given different machineries to Schumacher's team mates?


Congrats, on asking and answering your own question :rotfl:

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#16840 aditya-now

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Posted 05 February 2012 - 11:21

We know. :wave:


:wave:


#16841 ivand911

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Posted 05 February 2012 - 12:16

:wave:

Hello aditya, I see you found MS thread again. :p I know you have soft spot for the old boy.


#16842 jj2728

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Posted 05 February 2012 - 13:56

In other words, there isn't really anything to support the romantic notion that drivers like Clark were any better or even as good as Schumacher. Schumacher too had a dominant car in a couple of seasons, like Clark; Schumacher too was considered to be head and shoulders above the rest. They both had seasons where they flattered the car that their respective teammates found virtually undriveable.

Unlike Clark who spent his entire career at Lotus Schumacher was the central figure in bringing two teams to the top, and unlike Chapman's cars which won titles with drivers other than Clark, Rory Byrne's cars did not win a single title without Michael Schumacher at the wheel.

Just the sense of misplaced nostalgia that pervades a British dominated forum such as this. Reading some of the posts on TNF for instance you'd think drivers 'back in the day' would drive with one hand on the wheel and having a jolly good time sipping tea with the other.


Once again, it's this holier than thou stuff that irks me more than anything else. What's with this romantic notion twaddle? Someone has something to say contrary to the notion that your driver is a godlike creature and the insinuations start. For the record, where do you get off on calling what I have to say misplaced nostalgia? What is so misplaced about it? Have I called Clark the greatest ever? No. I have said nothing like that. I've said he's in my top 5 and that Schumacher is not. That fires you folk up for sure.
There is nothing misplaced at all. You make degrading remarks about TNF, yet it's rare I notice that you even bother to post there. You obviously were either not around nor following the sport back in the day to make such a flippant comment as that. I assume that you forget the dangers, injuries and deaths from 'back in the day'. The difference between you and I is that I do not put Schumacher on a pedestal and worship at his alter. You love to throw out phrases like miniscule minority and misplaced nostalgia as if you were the wise old sage of RC and everybody who disagrees with your fanboy perception and hero worshipping obsession with Schumacher is utterly wrong.

#16843 DutchCruijff

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Posted 05 February 2012 - 13:59

I really do hope he stays on for 2013. As much as I despise Mercedes they are putting a good package together with Bell et al and realistically it will be the 2013 challenger where we'll see their true introduction. I feel, with the personnel they now have, 2013 could be a winner and no-one on the grid, bar Vettel, Alonso & Button, could displace him at Mercedes.

Edited by DutchCruijff, 05 February 2012 - 14:03.


#16844 ivand911

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Posted 05 February 2012 - 14:00

Can we forget about Clark? I think if MS have more great races this year like 2011 Canada, Spa, India, Japan, Monaco,India, Monza he will stay for 2013. And less coming together on the track.

Edited by ivand911, 05 February 2012 - 14:06.


#16845 DutchCruijff

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Posted 05 February 2012 - 14:12

Can we forget about Clark? I think if MS have more great races this year like 2011 Canada, Spa, India, Japan, Monaco,India, Monza he will stay for 2013. And less coming together on the track.

I'd love for him to stay because he's earned a place for next year but I can't tell whether he wants to stay. Might be fed up with the media bullshit surrounding his career, another season, which is looking likely, of fighting for 6th/7th will be grim. It really is in his hands, sadly I think he'll quit because he'll be satisfied with the past 3 years.

#16846 cheapracer

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Posted 05 February 2012 - 14:41

Jesus Christ,


Please, use my forum nick in future.


#16847 hammibal

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Posted 05 February 2012 - 14:41

The irony is, in "hindsight", he could have had massive success in 2007/08, 2 further titles plus beating an equally treated and highly regarded teammate for the first time were definitely possible.

I agree and given Kimi's trivials it was definitely achievable and would have ticked that final box and cemented him as surely the greatest driver there has ever been

#16848 DutchCruijff

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Posted 05 February 2012 - 14:42

Please, use my forum nick in future.

Btw, are you actually Chinese or located over there?

#16849 cheapracer

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Posted 05 February 2012 - 14:50

Speaking now about Barrichello, the average gap might be on the 3 tenths region but often in "driver's track" such as Spa, Suzuka, Monaco, Schumacher would be like 1 second faster than Rubens, and this is something nobody else ever managed to do with Rubens, not even Button.


I was quite surprised by that, I was a huge Rubens fan and expected him to take it right to MS until MS demonstrated he was clearly was simply superior in every way - number 1 status having nothing to do with the consistent thrashing.

Btw, are you actually Chinese or located over there?


6'1", brown hair, blue eyes, ride kangaroos, wrestle crocodiles and throw prawns on the barby.

Edited by cheapracer, 05 February 2012 - 14:55.


#16850 DutchCruijff

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Posted 05 February 2012 - 14:59

6'1", brown hair, blue eyes, ride kangaroos, wrestle crocodiles and throw prawns on the barby.

Mix it together, pop it in the oven, sprinkle with a bit of coriander and you've got yourself Steve Irwin.



*larger model