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#16851 TheBunk

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Posted 04 February 2012 - 22:07

All of the above drivers were good, but never great. And of course I don't think that Ferrari boycotted their cars, but Schumacher clearly had number 1 status and when that number one status came into play, using Austria 2002 as an example, well we all know what happened.


Youd almost start to wonder why exactly Ferrari paid him 50 million a year. :wave:

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#16852 jj2728

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Posted 04 February 2012 - 23:47

Youd almost start to wonder why exactly Ferrari paid him 50 million a year. :wave:


Well, they paid him 50 million a year or so to do exactly what he did, turn Ferrari's fortunes around. Of that there can be no denial.

#16853 MarioKart

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Posted 05 February 2012 - 01:14

Regarding Patrese, yes he was beaten the same by Mansell with the enormous gaps but only in 92 where some people says Nigel had more strengh in the arm to cope with the active suspension car or whatever it was. Anyway, in 91, Patrese beaten Mansell most of the times in qualifying and even got some pole positions.


It's not true that Nigel had the upper hand only in 92. You're right that Patrese beat Mansell in quali during the 91 season but even then Nigel won more races, and scored more points (5:2 wins, 72:53 points).
Moreover, you completely forgot about the 88' season. The Williams Judd FW12 had no reactive suspension system from Silverstone onward (Nigel was even against the idea at the time, and didn't like it) yet he was still undeniably quicker than Patrese in quali throughout the season (13:1 in the total 14 races they were teammates).

Therefore I beg to differ, it wasn't just upper body strength. Patrese was a very good driver,no doubt, but Mansell was simply faster and more successful in their 3 years together.



#16854 Kubiccia

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Posted 05 February 2012 - 03:05

It's not true that Nigel had the upper hand only in 92. You're right that Patrese beat Mansell in quali during the 91 season but even then Nigel won more races, and scored more points (5:2 wins, 72:53 points).
Moreover, you completely forgot about the 88' season. The Williams Judd FW12 had no reactive suspension system from Silverstone onward (Nigel was even against the idea at the time, and didn't like it) yet he was still undeniably quicker than Patrese in quali throughout the season (13:1 in the total 14 races they were teammates).

Therefore I beg to differ, it wasn't just upper body strength. Patrese was a very good driver,no doubt, but Mansell was simply faster and more successful in their 3 years together.

I agree with you, Mansell was faster regardless but I just pointed out that the imense gaps were in 92 where in some ocasions it was around 2 seconds, something which only Schumacher imposed to Patrese in 93 as well. Even though Nigel was faster than Ricardo, I suspect, something with the 92 really streched the gap.

Some days ago, I watched the 2nd qualifying for Silverstone in 93 again and Schumacher damaged his car and couldn't use the spare one so he had to wait Patrese do his 12 laps to use his car to qualify. Despite using Patrese's car, Schumacher qualified 2 seconds ahead of Ricardo which was a proof for me that the fight was fair, they were not boycottng Ricardo's car and the gap was really that big.

Patrese was not a bad driver, though. I think his 39 years, at the time, were making him maybe a second slower than his peak.

#16855 hammibal

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Posted 05 February 2012 - 03:32

I'm not sure about the actual figures of HakkinenVS Brundle but eventhough Mika beaten Martin very often, I think the gap was not as big as in SchumacherXBrundle case. Regarding Patrese, yes he was beaten the same by Mansell with the enormous gaps but only in 92 where some people says Nigel had more strengh in the arm to cope with the active suspension car or whatever it was. Anyway, in 91, Patrese beaten Mansell most of the times in qualifying and even got some pole positions. About Massa, it's true that Alonso is proving to be much better as Schumi did. Speaking now about Barrichello, the average gap might be on the 3 tenths region but often in "driver's track" such as Spa, Suzuka, Monaco, Schumacher would be like 1 second faster than Rubens, and this is something nobody else ever managed to do with Rubens, not even Button.

Finally about Piquet, yeah he was old and even mentioned that very explicitely to show some people here, who think age doesn't affect, that we never saw aged drivers demonstrate speed.

Just for the record i considered Schumacher to be the best driver for a good 10/11 year period but was somewhat disappointed by the teammates he had, i got use to seeing the best drivers duking it out, Prost v Rosberg, Prost v Senna, Prost v Mansell, Rosberg v Mansell. It was just part of his cv that was missing a bit, i was hoping he was going to stay on at Ferrari to pair up with Kimi in 2007, someone who wouldn't play second fiddle to him but unfortunately he retired.

#16856 as65p

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Posted 05 February 2012 - 08:40

Just for the record i considered Schumacher to be the best driver for a good 10/11 year period but was somewhat disappointed by the teammates he had, i got use to seeing the best drivers duking it out, Prost v Rosberg, Prost v Senna, Prost v Mansell, Rosberg v Mansell. It was just part of his cv that was missing a bit, i was hoping he was going to stay on at Ferrari to pair up with Kimi in 2007, someone who wouldn't play second fiddle to him but unfortunately he retired.


The irony is, in "hindsight", he could have had massive success in 2007/08, 2 further titles plus beating an equally treated and highly regarded teammate for the first time were definitely possible.

#16857 BRK

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Posted 05 February 2012 - 10:02

With regards to Clark being a fighter, witness Monza 1967. Witness the fact that he hated Spa, where he'd seen 2 of his friends, one of them a teammate, killed during the 1960 Belgian GP and another, Moss, seriously injured, yet he won there 4 times. He was competitive and a winner in many forms of motorsport. He won the Indy 500, he competed in NASCAR, sports cars, touring cars. In 1963 and 1965 he probably had the best car, and knowing Colin Chapman's propensity for pushing the envelope the most fragile, but Schumacher too had years in which his Ferrari was clearly the most dominate.


In other words, there isn't really anything to support the romantic notion that drivers like Clark were any better or even as good as Schumacher. Schumacher too had a dominant car in a couple of seasons, like Clark; Schumacher too was considered to be head and shoulders above the rest. They both had seasons where they flattered the car that their respective teammates found virtually undriveable.

Unlike Clark who spent his entire career at Lotus Schumacher was the central figure in bringing two teams to the top, and unlike Chapman's cars which won titles with drivers other than Clark, Rory Byrne's cars did not win a single title without Michael Schumacher at the wheel.

Just the sense of misplaced nostalgia that pervades a British dominated forum such as this. Reading some of the posts on TNF for instance you'd think drivers 'back in the day' would drive with one hand on the wheel and having a jolly good time sipping tea with the other.

#16858 DutchCruijff

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Posted 05 February 2012 - 11:03

Some days ago, I watched the 2nd qualifying for Silverstone in 93 again and Schumacher damaged his car and couldn't use the spare one so he had to wait Patrese do his 12 laps to use his car to qualify. Despite using Patrese's car, Schumacher qualified 2 seconds ahead of Ricardo which was a proof for me that the fight was fair, they were not boycottng Ricardo's car and the gap was really that big.


Have Benetton and Ferrari always given different machineries to Schumacher's team mates?


Congrats, on asking and answering your own question :rotfl:

#16859 aditya-now

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Posted 05 February 2012 - 11:21

We know. :wave:


:wave:


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#16860 ivand911

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Posted 05 February 2012 - 12:16

:wave:

Hello aditya, I see you found MS thread again. :p I know you have soft spot for the old boy.


#16861 jj2728

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Posted 05 February 2012 - 13:56

In other words, there isn't really anything to support the romantic notion that drivers like Clark were any better or even as good as Schumacher. Schumacher too had a dominant car in a couple of seasons, like Clark; Schumacher too was considered to be head and shoulders above the rest. They both had seasons where they flattered the car that their respective teammates found virtually undriveable.

Unlike Clark who spent his entire career at Lotus Schumacher was the central figure in bringing two teams to the top, and unlike Chapman's cars which won titles with drivers other than Clark, Rory Byrne's cars did not win a single title without Michael Schumacher at the wheel.

Just the sense of misplaced nostalgia that pervades a British dominated forum such as this. Reading some of the posts on TNF for instance you'd think drivers 'back in the day' would drive with one hand on the wheel and having a jolly good time sipping tea with the other.


Once again, it's this holier than thou stuff that irks me more than anything else. What's with this romantic notion twaddle? Someone has something to say contrary to the notion that your driver is a godlike creature and the insinuations start. For the record, where do you get off on calling what I have to say misplaced nostalgia? What is so misplaced about it? Have I called Clark the greatest ever? No. I have said nothing like that. I've said he's in my top 5 and that Schumacher is not. That fires you folk up for sure.
There is nothing misplaced at all. You make degrading remarks about TNF, yet it's rare I notice that you even bother to post there. You obviously were either not around nor following the sport back in the day to make such a flippant comment as that. I assume that you forget the dangers, injuries and deaths from 'back in the day'. The difference between you and I is that I do not put Schumacher on a pedestal and worship at his alter. You love to throw out phrases like miniscule minority and misplaced nostalgia as if you were the wise old sage of RC and everybody who disagrees with your fanboy perception and hero worshipping obsession with Schumacher is utterly wrong.

#16862 DutchCruijff

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Posted 05 February 2012 - 13:59

I really do hope he stays on for 2013. As much as I despise Mercedes they are putting a good package together with Bell et al and realistically it will be the 2013 challenger where we'll see their true introduction. I feel, with the personnel they now have, 2013 could be a winner and no-one on the grid, bar Vettel, Alonso & Button, could displace him at Mercedes.

Edited by DutchCruijff, 05 February 2012 - 14:03.


#16863 ivand911

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Posted 05 February 2012 - 14:00

Can we forget about Clark? I think if MS have more great races this year like 2011 Canada, Spa, India, Japan, Monaco,India, Monza he will stay for 2013. And less coming together on the track.

Edited by ivand911, 05 February 2012 - 14:06.


#16864 DutchCruijff

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Posted 05 February 2012 - 14:12

Can we forget about Clark? I think if MS have more great races this year like 2011 Canada, Spa, India, Japan, Monaco,India, Monza he will stay for 2013. And less coming together on the track.

I'd love for him to stay because he's earned a place for next year but I can't tell whether he wants to stay. Might be fed up with the media bullshit surrounding his career, another season, which is looking likely, of fighting for 6th/7th will be grim. It really is in his hands, sadly I think he'll quit because he'll be satisfied with the past 3 years.

#16865 cheapracer

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Posted 05 February 2012 - 14:41

Jesus Christ,


Please, use my forum nick in future.


#16866 hammibal

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Posted 05 February 2012 - 14:41

The irony is, in "hindsight", he could have had massive success in 2007/08, 2 further titles plus beating an equally treated and highly regarded teammate for the first time were definitely possible.

I agree and given Kimi's trivials it was definitely achievable and would have ticked that final box and cemented him as surely the greatest driver there has ever been

#16867 DutchCruijff

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Posted 05 February 2012 - 14:42

Please, use my forum nick in future.

Btw, are you actually Chinese or located over there?

#16868 cheapracer

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Posted 05 February 2012 - 14:50

Speaking now about Barrichello, the average gap might be on the 3 tenths region but often in "driver's track" such as Spa, Suzuka, Monaco, Schumacher would be like 1 second faster than Rubens, and this is something nobody else ever managed to do with Rubens, not even Button.


I was quite surprised by that, I was a huge Rubens fan and expected him to take it right to MS until MS demonstrated he was clearly was simply superior in every way - number 1 status having nothing to do with the consistent thrashing.

Btw, are you actually Chinese or located over there?


6'1", brown hair, blue eyes, ride kangaroos, wrestle crocodiles and throw prawns on the barby.

Edited by cheapracer, 05 February 2012 - 14:55.


#16869 DutchCruijff

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Posted 05 February 2012 - 14:59

6'1", brown hair, blue eyes, ride kangaroos, wrestle crocodiles and throw prawns on the barby.

Mix it together, pop it in the oven, sprinkle with a bit of coriander and you've got yourself Steve Irwin.



*larger model

#16870 george1981

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Posted 05 February 2012 - 15:03

Don't forget that in the days of Schumi and Rubens at Ferrari, tyres were allocated to a team and not a driver. Ferrari would assign Barichello to gather the bulk of the tyre data in practise and leave Schumi with the best rubber options for the race. That's a simple fact.


That's not entirely true. In those days the tyre regulations were different and drivers had to choose which tyre they would use for qualifying and the race before qualifying started.
The tyres were still allocated to the drivers but Ferrari often made Rubens do most of the running on Fridays to help gather data to decide which tyre to use for the rest of the weekend. So Rubens may have been made to use up more of his practice allocation of tyres but it wouldn't have affected his allocation of race tyres. In the days before engine and gearbox life were restricted this wouldn't have been much of a disadvantage. Where it might have hurt Rubens was in finding a good set up on Friday but there's not a lot in it.

#16871 jj2728

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Posted 05 February 2012 - 15:33

It really is in his hands, sadly I think he'll quit because he'll be satisfied with the past 3 years.


Why would a 7x WDC be satisfied with a laclustre (so far) return to the grid? I think anything short of winning again will be less than satisfactory to him, but hey, that's just my humble opinion.

#16872 hammibal

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Posted 05 February 2012 - 15:36

I was quite surprised by that, I was a huge Rubens fan and expected him to take it right to MS until MS demonstrated he was clearly was simply superior in every way - number 1 status having nothing to do with the consistent thrashing.



6'1", brown hair, blue eyes, ride kangaroos, wrestle crocodiles and throw prawns on the barby.

...and shaves with a knife :lol:

#16873 BRK

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Posted 05 February 2012 - 15:42

Once again, it's this holier than thou stuff that irks me more than anything else. What's with this romantic notion twaddle? Someone has something to say contrary to the notion that your driver is a godlike creature and the insinuations start. For the record, where do you get off on calling what I have to say misplaced nostalgia? What is so misplaced about it? Have I called Clark the greatest ever? No. I have said nothing like that. I've said he's in my top 5 and that Schumacher is not. That fires you folk up for sure.
There is nothing misplaced at all. You make degrading remarks about TNF, yet it's rare I notice that you even bother to post there. You obviously were either not around nor following the sport back in the day to make such a flippant comment as that. I assume that you forget the dangers, injuries and deaths from 'back in the day'. The difference between you and I is that I do not put Schumacher on a pedestal and worship at his alter. You love to throw out phrases like miniscule minority and misplaced nostalgia as if you were the wise old sage of RC and everybody who disagrees with your fanboy perception and hero worshipping obsession with Schumacher is utterly wrong.


First off, the post about Clark (which you couldn't pass up because my quoting Surtees about Clark not being much of a fighter probably 'irked' you) was intended for fenderjaguar, who said Schumacher was not like 'Clark and Senna'. I pointed out the similarities in their careers and how there's even a good case to be made for why Schumacher's career had been the more impressive of the two.

Second, I thought I had pointed out in a very polite and gentlemanly manner also that I don't (nor does anyone here, I think) give a frick about your opinion or whether or not you ranked Schumacher in your personal top five, while still never questioning your right to have an opinion. I linked to the recent poll on this forum where MS came out on top, which I thought was surprising considering how partisan the attitude of the English-speaking world has been to Schumacher in the past. So basically your opinion is indeed in a minority, and a very small one at that. I don't see what's wrong with stating that as fact.


I probably wouldn't rank Clark in my top five either as I don't think he was as good as Schumacher. That would be an unpopular opinion and one in a minority, does that irk you too?

Third, reading your post it's clear you are the agitated, offended party. I for one see no reason to swallow nonsense about how yesteryear drivers were somehow better than those from later generations simply because they happened to be born in an era when the sport was more dangerous. Somehow I get the feeling if it was Schumacher that had dominated the sport in the 60s people wouldn't be saying the same thing. :rolleyes:

So anyway, enough about Clark. :lol:

Edited by BRK, 05 February 2012 - 15:45.


#16874 DutchCruijff

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Posted 05 February 2012 - 15:44

Why would a 7x WDC be satisfied with a laclustre (so far) return to the grid? I think anything short of winning again will be less than satisfactory to him, but hey, that's just my humble opinion.

Driving as good as Rosberg, Hamilton et al = Satisfied.
Winning = Supreme satisfaction.

#16875 MikeTekRacing

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Posted 05 February 2012 - 15:47

Why would a 7x WDC be satisfied with a laclustre (so far) return to the grid? I think anything short of winning again will be less than satisfactory to him, but hey, that's just my humble opinion.


Did it cross your mind that all it matters for him is how he feels about it?

#16876 jj2728

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Posted 05 February 2012 - 16:36

Third, reading your post it's clear you are the agitated, offended party. I for one see no reason to swallow nonsense about how yesteryear drivers were somehow better than those from later generations simply because they happened to be born in an era when the sport was more dangerous. Somehow I get the feeling if it was Schumacher that had dominated the sport in the 60s people wouldn't be saying the same thing. :rolleyes:

So anyway, enough about Clark. :lol:


Ok, enough about Clark. And I'm neither agitated nor offended, and yet I am not saying nor have ever said that even though those times were more dangerous, the drivers were somehow better. Different eras cannot be compared, and in fact 2 of the drivers that I rank in my personal top 5 raced before even Clark and Fangio.

#16877 Wi000

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Posted 05 February 2012 - 16:39

Did it cross your mind that all it matters for him is how he feels about it?

That's the nice thing about being Michael Schumacher 7 * WDC I guess.
He's way past caring what other people think about him and if he wants to drive F1 a car will be there for him when alternatively if he doesn't enjoy it anymore he can stop instantly and go his merry way.



#16878 jj2728

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Posted 05 February 2012 - 16:41

Did it cross your mind that all it matters for him is how he feels about it?


Yes of course it's crossed my mind and that is why I believe anything other than winning will be less than satisfactory for him. Do you honestly believe that IF 2012 is a repeat of 2010 and 2011 that he'll step away from the sport, should he step away, and be satisfied with a return that was laclustre by any standards? I sure don't.

#16879 DutchCruijff

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Posted 05 February 2012 - 16:42

Ok, enough about Clark. And I'm neither agitated nor offended, and yet I am not saying nor have ever said that even though those times were more dangerous, the drivers were somehow better. Different eras cannot be compared, and in fact 2 of the drivers that I rank in my personal top 5 raced before even Clark and Fangio.

Bravo, coming out with holier than thou "different eras cannot be compared" then contradicting yourself within the space of a few words. :rotfl:

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#16880 FenderJaguar

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Posted 05 February 2012 - 16:48

Ah these smileys. They are so funny.

#16881 jj2728

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Posted 05 February 2012 - 17:07

Bravo, coming out with holier than thou "different eras cannot be compared" then contradicting yourself within the space of a few words. :rotfl:



WTF is contradictory about saying that 2 of my personal top 5 raced before Clark and Fangio?
I'm not comparing eras
I'm voicing my personal opinion


#16882 halifaxf1fan

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Posted 05 February 2012 - 17:24

With Michael possibly nearing the end of his illustrious and very successful career, ....

What are my wishes for him in 2012: a podium to be sure. It will be a grand feeling, to see Michael one more time on the rostrum. If it will be the top step remains to be seen, but I expect a celebration equal to Rubens Barrichello in Valencia 2009 - the whole pit lane was cheering Rubens back then. With Michael it should be at least as big a celebration, and we might see a very special, human side of Michael, that he usually hides well behind his professional demeanor. So yeah, let it be a win, even if that makes the line of wins (91, 51, 41, 31) a little different with his 92nd win.

Considering the second half of 2011 and the fact that the rules did not change that much, I would also expect that in 2012 Michael will indeed defeat Nico Rosberg, at least in points.


I think Nico has more fight in him than we have generally seen. When MS was pushing closer to him at the end of last season Nico stepped up being especially at Yas Marina where he was very combative.

It will be an interesting and close battle but in the end I think Rosberg will prevail. A podium though for MS would be a very fitting reward for all his hard work.

Edited by halifaxf1fan, 05 February 2012 - 17:34.


#16883 aditya-now

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Posted 05 February 2012 - 19:24

I think Nico has more fight in him than we have generally seen. When MS was pushing closer to him at the end of last season Nico stepped up being especially at Yas Marina where he was very combative.

It will be an interesting and close battle but in the end I think Rosberg will prevail. A podium though for MS would be a very fitting reward for all his hard work.


Sincerely, though not a Schumacher fan at all, I believe that Schumacher will better Rosberg in points 2012. And to have the old man gain one last podium, even a win, will be legendary.

There was quite an interesting long interview with Gerhard Berger in AMuS:

http://www.auto-moto...en-4333233.html

In it Berger says what you express as well: "Schumacher cannot "bend" Rosberg anymore". Berger also expresses interest in how good Rosberg would do vis-a-vis Vettel. Yet he concedes that another car related drought could be deadly for Rosberg's racing spirit.

#16884 halifaxf1fan

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Posted 05 February 2012 - 20:22

Sincerely, though not a Schumacher fan at all, I believe that Schumacher will better Rosberg in points 2012. And to have the old man gain one last podium, even a win, will be legendary.

There was quite an interesting long interview with Gerhard Berger in AMuS:

http://www.auto-moto...en-4333233.html

In it Berger says what you express as well: "Schumacher cannot "bend" Rosberg anymore". Berger also expresses interest in how good Rosberg would do vis-a-vis Vettel. Yet he concedes that another car related drought could be deadly for Rosberg's racing spirit.



Indeed, Berger thinks very highly of Rosberg. He even places Rosberg as a worthy competitor to Vettel. Hopefully the Mercedes is a better car* than last and it will allow both Rosberg and MS to use their full talents in what could be their final showdown.

*On this point it is a bit concerning that they are missing the first test however it may just be part of their plan to delay the new car.

Edited by halifaxf1fan, 05 February 2012 - 20:25.


#16885 Ferrari_F1_fan_2001

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Posted 05 February 2012 - 22:50

I think Nico has more fight in him than we have generally seen. When MS was pushing closer to him at the end of last season Nico stepped up being especially at Yas Marina where he was very combative.

It will be an interesting and close battle but in the end I think Rosberg will prevail. A podium though for MS would be a very fitting reward for all his hard work.


Nico has only shown such bravado against Schumacher. The rest of the time he has been intimidated by Alonso, Hamilton et al and been overtaken or put up very little resistance.
It's almost as if he knows that any weak showing against an ageing Schumacher will destroy his future F1 prospects. Really, he is in a lose-lose situation.

If this is another mediocre year for Mercedes, I suspect Rosberg will exercise some leave clause on his contract that will have been written in. Six years without a win in your prime years racing in the midfield in a VERY talented era? The longer the drought, the more chance he will have as being described as another Fisichella.

Edited by Ferrari_F1_fan_2001, 05 February 2012 - 22:56.


#16886 MarioKart

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Posted 06 February 2012 - 01:59

I agree with you, Mansell was faster regardless but I just pointed out that the imense gaps were in 92 where in some ocasions it was around 2 seconds, something which only Schumacher imposed to Patrese in 93 as well. Even though Nigel was faster than Ricardo, I suspect, something with the 92 really streched the gap.

Yes it's true, the gap became bigger in 92' because Patrese was uncomfortable with the active suspension system, and lacked faith in it. He was afraid of losing control in the car in case something went wrong with the system unexpectedly in middle of a corner.

Some days ago, I watched the 2nd qualifying for Silverstone in 93 again and Schumacher damaged his car and couldn't use the spare one so he had to wait Patrese do his 12 laps to use his car to qualify. Despite using Patrese's car, Schumacher qualified 2 seconds ahead of Ricardo which was a proof for me that the fight was fair, they were not boycottng Ricardo's car and the gap was really that big.

Patrese was not a bad driver, though. I think his 39 years, at the time, were making him maybe a second slower than his peak.


IMO Schumacher's dominance at Benetton in 93 really came down to a few main factors:
1. His extraordinary talent. One of the most valued qualities he displayed during his first career was the ability to extract maximum performance from a tricky car to handle. He would work around the shortcomings of the car, in the cockpit. A few years ago Patrese commented on it, how he had pointed out to the Benetton staff the various problems of the B193; however he had been dismissed(wrongfully) since they had seen Schumi as a mirror to the quality of the car! When the car was less than stellar and below, the gap between Michael and his teammates would seem larger than normal.
2. The B193B featured an active suspension from the European GP onward(Donington). And as we know, Patrese never liked the active type. In addition, as I understood, the system was inferior to the Williams's thus I suspect it made his experience in the car far from perfect.
3. Flavio Briatore. No need to explain the questionable pattern of how has he treats his drivers whom are not considered the "favourite-son". Here are Riccardo's words regarding this matter:

"...When I came to the end of my career I was a little bit tired. My last season had not been very good because of Mr Briatore and I do not have a very good opinion of him. Of course, the last part of his F1 career has seen his reputation go down and it is not for me to make any more comment."

4. As you correctly mentioned, Patrese's age affected his performance by that stage. A driver aged 39 against a 24 year old is a bit too much to handle. Reflexes, fitness degrades over time. That is why I find it admirable how Schumi at 43 of age handles himself well against Rosberg. It proves his mental strength and his greatness in my view.

Edited by MarioKart, 06 February 2012 - 02:09.


#16887 MarioKart

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Posted 06 February 2012 - 03:39

Bravo, coming out with holier than thou "different eras cannot be compared" then contradicting yourself within the space of a few words. :rotfl:


IMO I don't find it contradicting at all. A person can assess a driver's importance:
a. Based on a variety of aspects within the era in which he competed.
b. By addressing and evaluating the changes and pros/cons of said era.

That includes =
>the relative danger/risk of being a racing driver (safety of cars and circuits during the season, number of crashes due to action and traffic on track etc).
>regulations.
>common driving style.
>percentage of overtaking in a race.
>the skill required to drive the cars.
> Professionalism and pool of talent/competition in the world of motor racing at a specific time.
>the significance of the drivers' involvement in managing their races, and careers in their respective teams.
>level of competition/percentage of proven drivers on track(winners, champions), and more...

By dividing the history of F1 into periods of time and placing a main driver/'s on top of each point in timeline (all in a subjective manner of course), this type of personal top 5 can be done. :)


#16888 Kubiccia

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Posted 06 February 2012 - 04:56

I was quite surprised by that, I was a huge Rubens fan and expected him to take it right to MS until MS demonstrated he was clearly was simply superior in every way - number 1 status having nothing to do with the consistent thrashing.



6'1", brown hair, blue eyes, ride kangaroos, wrestle crocodiles and throw prawns on the barby.

I also thought that and Rubens even admitted on interviews that Schumacher was really faster than him in most of the time and this was from driver talent point of view and not regarding number 1 status or whatever.

PS: lol, I always thought you were a Chinaman rather than Webber's countrymate.

This thread should be re-titled "Welcome to Cloud Cuckoo Land"

Quote Wikipedia "Cloud Cuckoo Land refers to an unrealistically idealistic state where everything is perfect. ("You're living in Cloud Cuckoo Land.") It hints that the person referred to is naïve, unaware of reality or deranged in holding such an optimistic belief."

Both sides can always claim such things.... When one thinks differently than the other, he will often think of the other opinion as being of phantasy nature.

Yes it's true, the gap became bigger in 92' because Patrese was uncomfortable with the active suspension system, and lacked faith in it. He was afraid of losing control in the car in case something went wrong with the system unexpectedly in middle of a corner.

thanks for the info, I didn't know that.

IMO Schumacher's dominance at Benetton in 93 really came down to a few main factors:
1. His extraordinary talent. One of the most valued qualities he displayed during his first career was the ability to extract maximum performance from a tricky car to handle. He would work around the shortcomings of the car, in the cockpit. A few years ago Patrese commented on it, how he had pointed out to the Benetton staff the various problems of the B193; however he had been dismissed(wrongfully) since they had seen Schumi as a mirror to the quality of the car! When the car was less than stellar and below, the gap between Michael and his teammates would seem larger than normal.
2. The B193B featured an active suspension from the European GP onward(Donington). And as we know, Patrese never liked the active type. In addition, as I understood, the system was inferior to the Williams's thus I suspect it made his experience in the car far from perfect.
3. Flavio Briatore. No need to explain the questionable pattern of how has he treats his drivers whom are not considered the "favourite-son". Here are Riccardo's words regarding this matter:
4. As you correctly mentioned, Patrese's age affected his performance by that stage. A driver aged 39 against a 24 year old is a bit too much to handle. Reflexes, fitness degrades over time. That is why I find it admirable how Schumi at 43 of age handles himself well against Rosberg. It proves his mental strength and his greatness in my view.

again thanks for the info. Do you remember if Mclaren ever introduced active suspension in 93? I think I head Murray Walker or John Watson making comments claiming so but can't be sure about it.(I ask this just as curiosity, I don't want to prove or say anything with it)

Edited by Kubiccia, 06 February 2012 - 04:58.


#16889 ivand911

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Posted 06 February 2012 - 08:05

Looking all this debate, I somehow think that MS prove himself until now for those 20 years? No? What are you exactly discussing?
I think it was McLaren who featured an active suspension from the European GP onward(Donington)? Williams did it later, not sure about Benetton.

Edited by ivand911, 06 February 2012 - 08:05.


#16890 MarioKart

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Posted 06 February 2012 - 08:05

thanks for the info, I didn't know that.

again thanks for the info. Do you remember if Mclaren ever introduced active suspension in 93? I think I head Murray Walker or John Watson making comments claiming so but can't be sure about it.(I ask this just as curiosity, I don't want to prove or say anything with it)

You're welcome. :)
McLaren toyed with the idea of active suspension as early as 1988 but only in the beginning of testing. They experimented with the system yet again in testing in 1992, with the MP4/7B. However only then, in 1993, did the world of F1 finally see the team introducing it officially on the MP4/8 model, along with a semi-automatic gearbox (which had been used in the MP4/7A already) and a traction control system to boot. The Benetton B193B had the triple win of the above technology the same year as well.


#16891 MarioKart

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Posted 06 February 2012 - 08:27

Looking all this debate, I somehow think that MS prove himself until now for those 20 years? No? What are you exactly discussing?

Well currently 423 pages of Schumi discussion DO exist! I'm a big fan of him but not all of the people here are.

I think it was McLaren who featured an active suspension from the European GP onward(Donington)? Williams did it later, not sure about Benetton.

Regarding the timeline of the introduction to active suspension ,no to all of the above. :)


#16892 ivand911

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Posted 06 February 2012 - 09:04

Regarding the timeline of the introduction to active suspension ,no to all of the above. :)

Maybe I mistaken it with traction control. Because only McLaren and Williams have TC at Donington 1993. This is what they say before race started.

Edited by ivand911, 06 February 2012 - 09:19.


#16893 BRK

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Posted 06 February 2012 - 09:08

That is why I find it admirable how Schumi at 43 of age handles himself well against Rosberg. It proves his mental strength and his greatness in my view.


Same here. I think most reasonable people that aren't fans of Schumacher would concede and conclude this is the case.

However, I don't think we've seen the last champion to make a return at 40+, it's probably years\decades down the road but someone from the current grid will, I think, return when they are past their best: if this board is still around then I'll be right here, waiting. :p

#16894 DutchCruijff

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Posted 06 February 2012 - 12:38

IMO I don't find it contradicting at all. A person can assess a driver's importance:
a. Based on a variety of aspects within the era in which he competed.
b. By addressing and evaluating the changes and pros/cons of said era.

That includes =
>the relative danger/risk of being a racing driver (safety of cars and circuits during the season, number of crashes due to action and traffic on track etc).
>regulations.
>common driving style.
>percentage of overtaking in a race.
>the skill required to drive the cars.
> Professionalism and pool of talent/competition in the world of motor racing at a specific time.
>the significance of the drivers' involvement in managing their races, and careers in their respective teams.
>level of competition/percentage of proven drivers on track(winners, champions), and more...

By dividing the history of F1 into periods of time and placing a main driver/'s on top of each point in timeline (all in a subjective manner of course), this type of personal top 5 can be done. :)

"the relative risk of being a racing driver"? You use the word relative, do you know what relative means? It involves a comparison. There's essentially 8 decades of racing, do you expect to create a Top 5 by 8 main drivers from the 8 eras?

#16895 MarioKart

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Posted 06 February 2012 - 14:16

"the relative risk of being a racing driver"? You use the word relative, do you know what relative means? It involves a comparison.


So? Who said the only comparison needs to be made as an outer comparison between the different eras? :confused:
As I said, an importance of a driver can be evaluated within the era he's racing.
If you check an era's number of fatalities during testing, qualifying, racing then yes you can assess the relative risk within this point in timeline.

There's essentially 8 decades of racing, do you expect to create a Top 5 by 8 main drivers from the 8 eras?

I said "main driver/'s on top of each point in timeline" hence the plural option of having 2 (or even more) most important drivers in one era.
Secondly, once a person "filter" each era in order to create his top drivers list (again, it can be 15 drivers for all I know, it's subjective) a comparison would be made between the drivers not the eras! The reason? IMO because the level of importance between those drivers is not the same to one's point of view.


#16896 DutchCruijff

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Posted 06 February 2012 - 14:52

I'm not entirely sure where this "importance" word has come from? We're not discussing jj's Top 5 of importance, we're discussing his Top 5 greatest drivers.

Nevermind, I've taken this thread too far away so let's stop this discussion.

#16897 MarioKart

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Posted 06 February 2012 - 15:03

I'm not entirely sure where this "importance" word has come from? We're not discussing jj's Top 5 of importance, we're discussing his Top 5 greatest drivers.

Yes but the bottom line is it all comes down to subjectiveness of the person, isn't it? there is no definitive truth of a "top 5 greatest drivers".

Nevermind, I've taken this thread too far away so let's stop this discussion.

Fine by me.


#16898 OSX

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Posted 06 February 2012 - 17:05

Mark Slade Leaves Mercedes GP and Schumacher to Rejoin Raikkonen at Lotus
6 February 2012

Kimi Raikkonen will get Mark Slade as his race engineer at Lotus.

Slade worked with Raikkonen already during his McLaren years.

Slade moves to Lotus from Mercedes GP where he worked as Michael Schumacher's race engineer.

http://www.mtv3.fi/u...-kisainsinoorin


#16899 Urawa

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Posted 06 February 2012 - 17:11

nooooooooooo

can´t be good to change race engineers like underwear all the time

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#16900 Spa95

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Posted 06 February 2012 - 17:21

nooooooooooo

can´t be good to change race engineers like underwear all the time

This is Mark Slade, his last GP as MS race engineer was at the Hungarian GP last year.