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Michael Schumacher (merged)


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#17101 LiJu914

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Posted 13 February 2012 - 13:51

We won't know until you try.


I already did (see previous page).

But in short: MS imho isn´t as good as he was before and i assume that was, is and will be the case for every other driver in his 40s compared to his younger self.

Does he still deserve a seat in F1? Yes i think so.
Can he become champion again? Of course as F1 is a car-dependant discipline in terms of success (but i doubt that MGP will provide a good enough car for him).

Edited by LiJu914, 13 February 2012 - 13:52.


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#17102 hammibal

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Posted 13 February 2012 - 13:59

So you feel that if Schumacher was given the best car of the field, an advantage of 2-3/10ths, he wouldn't have a good chance of winning the WDC?

Webber had such an advantage but only came 3rd in the WDC plus Schumacher has still to beat Rosberg which he so far hasnt done, so it wouldnt be nailed on as such, also under those circumstances a big portion of the grid would also have a chance, Massa 2008 comes to mind.

#17103 LiJu914

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Posted 13 February 2012 - 14:00

A race win is a far cry from a championship and in this particular case Nigel achieved it amid a lot of uncompetitive drives in 94 and 95. A perhaps better example would be his 1992 championship at the age of 39. Or Brabham's last WDC at the age of 40 in 1966. But still far away from Fangio's 46.


And in terms of age/performance-correlation one should still point out that this season doesn´t provide much insight, as basically only a Williams-driver could become WDC that year - and Patrese was only a year younger than Nigel.

Edited by LiJu914, 13 February 2012 - 14:00.


#17104 FenderJaguar

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Posted 13 February 2012 - 14:02

Mansell got his well deserved championship when he was 39. At 40 he went to the CART-series and won there when it was a good series. Remarkable. He didn't drive that much in 1994 - he replaced Coulthard in France and then did the last 3 races.

#17105 FenderJaguar

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Posted 13 February 2012 - 14:03

And in terms of age/performance-correlation one should still point out that this season doesn´t provide much insight, as basically only a Williams-driver could become WDC that year - and Patrese was only a year younger than Nigel.


Winning the CART-series as a "rookie" in 1993 tells me he still had a lot of speed.

#17106 DutchCruijff

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Posted 13 February 2012 - 14:04

Webber had such an advantage but only came 3rd in the WDC plus Schumacher has still to beat Rosberg which he so far hasnt done, so it wouldnt be nailed on as such, also under those circumstances a big portion of the grid would also have a chance, Massa 2008 comes to mind.

Mark Webber is not Michael Schumacher. Schumacher has beaten Rosberg? Can he beat him over a season? With a car that is away from all the midfield mess and behaves correctly, it is more likely than not he will. Massa '08 was a supreme driver and not just any driver.

#17107 LiJu914

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Posted 13 February 2012 - 14:13

Winning the CART-series as a "rookie" in 1993 tells me he still had a lot of speed.


Nobody denies that Mansell still had "a lot of speed". I also don´t deny that MSC still has a lot of speed (as i think that Rosberg is a fast driver).
But imho neither of two had/have the same speed as they had several years before.

Ps. And i dont want to belittle the quality of the CART-series, but it´s not F1 (actually an even older former F1-WDC was runner-up that year  ;) - That argument might also be used the other way around, but the fact that 47-year old Fittipaldi became 2nd, tells me more about the quality of the field than about Fittipaldi.

Edited by LiJu914, 13 February 2012 - 14:14.


#17108 hammibal

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Posted 13 February 2012 - 14:59

Mansell got his well deserved championship when he was 39. At 40 he went to the CART-series and won there when it was a good series. Remarkable. He didn't drive that much in 1994 - he replaced Coulthard in France and then did the last 3 races.

Mansell was in the best team though and his teammate Mario Andretti was 54 years old

#17109 Jejking

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Posted 13 February 2012 - 15:03

You're describing Schumacher's 2010.

You are forgetting one thing: Schumacher last season was most of the time on his way back up after a mostly disappointing 2010, while Mansell in 1995 really struggled to hang on.

#17110 Buttoneer

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Posted 13 February 2012 - 15:03

I already did (see previous page).

But in short: MS imho isn´t as good as he was before and i assume that was, is and will be the case for every other driver in his 40s compared to his younger self.

Does he still deserve a seat in F1? Yes i think so.
Can he become champion again? Of course as F1 is a car-dependant discipline in terms of success (but i doubt that MGP will provide a good enough car for him).

I don't disagree with you, but it is IMHO important to recognise that circumstances can and do arise where either your age becomes irrelevant or the equipment makes it so. If the argument is that Fangio could only win at that age because he drove well within the physical and mental limits of a 46 year old because that's what F1 was like then, I think that it's reasonable to say there are races and circumstances which allow a drivers experience to shine through where sheer youth and enthusiasm fails. These circumstances won't win him a championship, but a decent car might, as long as he can beat Rosberg.

A thread on age and driving might be a good discussion.

#17111 FenderJaguar

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Posted 13 February 2012 - 15:14

Emmo did win the Indy 500 that year so he might be a good example that some drivers still can drive into their 40s. You might also want to mention Mario and so on, but the series also had a young Paul Tracy and really good racers. As strange as it may sound today there were a lot of talk about F1 vs Cart/Indycar around 1993 and F1 wasn't that far ahead.

Anyway - I don't think Michael has lost a lot of speed. Maybe a tenth or something. I think it is more about different team, different rules, different racing. And maybe Rosberg is really fast, who knows?

Edited by FenderJaguar, 13 February 2012 - 15:14.


#17112 LiJu914

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Posted 13 February 2012 - 15:43

Emmo did win the Indy 500 that year so he might be a good example that some drivers still can drive into their 40s. You might also want to mention Mario and so on, but the series also had a young Paul Tracy and really good racers. As strange as it may sound today there were a lot of talk about F1 vs Cart/Indycar around 1993 and F1 wasn't that far ahead.


As i said, you can use this argument one way or the other...

F1 vs. CART at that time?

F1 champ Mansell comes to CART and wins.
Michael Andretti finished 2nd, 1st, 2nd in CART before he joined F1. I think i don´t need to remind anyone how "good" he was in F1.

But i think we start getting lost in details, because the main pattern is pretty clear: For more than 40 years now there are no 40(+) year-old WDCs, not even GP-Winners (except for Mansell in Adelaide).
And of course that´s basically not only a pattern in F1 but also in every other sport (in which there is mostly no "distorting" element of technical inequality = better comparability of individual performance), even in sports which are less physical demanding.
I guess one could find a few exceptions in each discipline, but the general rule would stay the same.


Anyway - I don't think Michael has lost a lot of speed. Maybe a tenth or something. I think it is more about different team, different rules, different racing. And maybe Rosberg is really fast, who knows?


Well, then we obviously disagree in this point. However i won´t make up any numbers as it would be pretty nonserious imho.

Edited by LiJu914, 13 February 2012 - 15:54.


#17113 hammibal

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Posted 13 February 2012 - 16:14

Mark Webber is not Michael Schumacher. Schumacher has beaten Rosberg? Can he beat him over a season? With a car that is away from all the midfield mess and behaves correctly, it is more likely than not he will. Massa '08 was a supreme driver and not just any driver.

By dismissing Webber you could also say who's Rosberg, Rosberg is 4/5 tenths quicker than Schumacher in qualifying so even with 2 to 3 tenths car advantage you'd see Rosberg on pole and Schumacher 4th/5th on the grid so not a gimme for Schumacher by any means

#17114 fieraku

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Posted 13 February 2012 - 16:37

By dismissing Webber you could also say who's Rosberg, Rosberg is 4/5 tenths quicker than Schumacher in qualifying so even with 2 to 3 tenths car advantage you'd see Rosberg on pole and Schumacher 4th/5th on the grid so not a gimme for Schumacher by any means

I was more impressed by Schu last season then by Nico and I think NR is a top driver.The problem last year was that Merc was stagnated in 4th and there's little points difference between 7th and 8th.Merc was a lock for 4th and 7th/8th for the drivers, so the impressions come from individual races and Schu in Canada was 80% of the old or for better word the young Schu.
Not to take anything from MS but it also seems to me at least that NR has lost that flare/hunger/fight or whatever you want to call it due to having bad cars.

2012 will be very interesting for sure.

#17115 hammibal

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Posted 13 February 2012 - 16:47

I was more impressed by Schu last season then by Nico and I think NR is a top driver.The problem last year was that Merc was stagnated in 4th and there's little points difference between 7th and 8th.Merc was a lock for 4th and 7th/8th for the drivers, so the impressions come from individual races and Schu in Canada was 80% of the old or for better word the young Schu.
Not to take anything from MS but it also seems to me at least that NR has lost that flare/hunger/fight or whatever you want to call it due to having bad cars.

2012 will be very interesting for sure.

I dont understand this Canada thing, it was an unusual race SC etc, it was a great drive by Schumacher? But he only finished 6 seconds in front of the driving god that is Petrov. :confused:

#17116 ivand911

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Posted 13 February 2012 - 16:51

I dont understand this Canada thing, it was an unusual race SC etc, it was a great drive by Schumacher? But he only finished 6 seconds in front of the driving god that is Petrov. :confused:

As you say SC - Petrov, 6 seconds.


#17117 LiJu914

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Posted 13 February 2012 - 16:52

I dont understand this Canada thing, it was an unusual race SC etc, it was a great drive by Schumacher? But he only finished 6 seconds in front of the driving god that is Petrov. :confused:


Yeah 6 seconds in the last 10 laps (last SC-period ended after lap 60) while battling with Webber/Button.

Edited by LiJu914, 13 February 2012 - 17:05.


#17118 fieraku

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Posted 13 February 2012 - 16:53

I dont understand this Canada thing, it was an unusual race SC etc, it was a great drive by Schumacher? But he only finished 6 seconds in front of the driving god that is Petrov. :confused:


And only 4 tenths behind Webber.

#17119 Buttoneer

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Posted 13 February 2012 - 16:59

I dont understand this Canada thing, it was an unusual race SC etc, it was a great drive by Schumacher? But he only finished 6 seconds in front of the driving god that is Petrov. :confused:

If this is an attempt to belittle that performance you're very wide of the mark. Even finishing a race that chaotic is a good job and it's one of those examples where experience can make a difference, and Schumacher was only a small step away from the podium.

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#17120 hammibal

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Posted 13 February 2012 - 17:08

If this is an attempt to belittle that performance you're very wide of the mark. Even finishing a race that chaotic is a good job and it's one of those examples where experience can make a difference, and Schumacher was only a small step away from the podium.

Agreed experience can make a difference, it was a crazy race though, Button went from running last to winning the race

#17121 LiJu914

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Posted 13 February 2012 - 17:16

2012 will be very interesting for sure.


Indeed.
As i would be happy for MSC to have a successful 2012-season, i´m yet way less optimistic about that than most of his supporters.
We can only speculate about the impact of the technical changes:
The 2012-spec tyres didn´t seem to change much in Brazil (of course one race is only a random sample...).
The disappearance of the EBD might help MSC a little bit - he looked a little bit better in Qualifying in the first half of 2010 (MGP introduced their first EBD in Valencia afaik) against Rosberg than in the 2nd half of 2010 and the 2011 season.
But overall i think he might very likely still lack some pace in Qualifying.
And that problem might become more severe than previous year. I expect the cars to be much closer together in 2012, making qualifying more crucial.

Edited by LiJu914, 13 February 2012 - 17:18.


#17122 fieraku

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Posted 13 February 2012 - 17:23

Indeed.
As i would be happy for MSC to have a successful 2012-season, i´m yet way less optimistic about that than most of his supporters.
We can only speculate about the impact of the technical changes:
The 2012-spec tyres didn´t seem to change much in Brazil (of course one race is only a random sample...).
The disappearance of the EBD might help MSC a little bit - he looked a little bit better in Qualifying in the first half 2010 (MGP introduced their first EBD in Valencia afaik) against Rosberg than in the 2nd half.
But overall i think he will still lack some pace in Qualifying.
And that problem might become more severe than previous year. The cars might come closer together in 2012, making qualifying more crucial.

I agree,the one thing I'd like to add, to me the very thought of Schu just being in F1 and still driving competitively is a success in itself.I'm a realist and don't expect him to drive like he did 10-15 years ago but also am not a fool to think he doesn't have what it takes.

#17123 ivand911

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Posted 13 February 2012 - 17:27

Indeed.
As i would be happy for MSC to have a successful 2012-season, i´m yet way less optimistic about that than most of his supporters.
We can only speculate about the impact of the technical changes:
The 2012-spec tyres didn´t seem to change much in Brazil (of course one race is only a random sample...).
The disappearance of the EBD might help MSC a little bit - he looked a little bit better in Qualifying in the first half of 2010 (MGP introduced their first EBD in Valencia afaik) against Rosberg than in the 2nd half of 2010 and the 2011 season.

I didn't know they used 2012 tyres in Brazil? I don't think they use them.


#17124 Szoelloe

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Posted 13 February 2012 - 17:30

I didn't know they used 2012 tyres in Brazil? I don't think they use them.


Because they didn't :)


#17125 LiJu914

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Posted 13 February 2012 - 17:35

Because they didn't :)

Maybe i confused something and they just tried them in free-practice.

Edited by LiJu914, 13 February 2012 - 17:35.


#17126 ivand911

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Posted 13 February 2012 - 17:38

Maybe i confused something and they just tried them in free-practice.

They try/test them at the young test in Abu Dhabi.

#17127 LiJu914

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Posted 13 February 2012 - 17:42

They try/test them at the young test in Abu Dhabi.


Yes, but also in Brazil.
Click
Some of these articles make it look, like the tyres were already used in the race itself, but it was probably just in free-practice.

#17128 Szoelloe

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Posted 13 February 2012 - 17:46

Maybe i confused something and they just tried them in free-practice.



Yes, but also in Brazil.
Click
Some of these articles make it look, like the tyres were already used in the race itself, but it was probably just in free-practice.


Tried the compounds in free practice yes, and not even the final ones I assume. In 2012, the tyre construction has changed too, and the full spec tyres were first run in Jerez last week. Seems they are quite different to last year's.

Edited by Szoelloe, 13 February 2012 - 17:49.


#17129 Ferrari_F1_fan_2001

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Posted 13 February 2012 - 23:15

I dont understand this Canada thing, it was an unusual race SC etc, it was a great drive by Schumacher? But he only finished 6 seconds in front of the driving god that is Petrov. :confused:


Rosberg finished the race with a broken nose and front wing.

Schumacher was harassing Vettel for the lead at the restart....

#17130 baddog

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Posted 14 February 2012 - 00:05

We know Schumi is doing well when the historical revisionism kicks in. Now Canada was just an 'okay' drive? lol

#17131 Raelene

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Posted 14 February 2012 - 01:57

I dont understand this Canada thing, it was an unusual race SC etc, it was a great drive by Schumacher? But he only finished 6 seconds in front of the driving god that is Petrov. :confused:


assuming by this comment you only "watched" the race afterwards....on a computer by checking the result...

#17132 hammibal

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Posted 14 February 2012 - 02:08

Rosberg finished the race with a broken nose and front wing.

Schumacher was harassing Vettel for the lead at the restart....

I need to watch the race again my interest waned a bit after Lewis crashed out, so the main part i remember is Lewis spinning Webber and himself off, then him being quicker than Schumacher which lead to Schumacher forcing him off the track, then of course Lewis crashing into Jenson, so i guess i was feeling a bit mean spirited to Schumacher,

#17133 hammibal

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Posted 14 February 2012 - 02:12

assuming by this comment you only "watched" the race afterwards....on a computer by checking the result...

There was so much that happened that i can't recall things, i know strategy played its part somewhat

#17134 MarioKart

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Posted 14 February 2012 - 06:03

Mansell was gifted a race win at the age of 41.

Gifted?
To use the cliché: "to finish first, first you have to finish", something which Schumi failed to do in the race.
Nige won pole position in Adelaide and a well deserved win.

You are forgetting one thing: Schumacher last season was most of the time on his way back up after a mostly disappointing 2010, while Mansell in 1995 really struggled to hang on.

And you are forgetting one thing: Schumacher competed in 19 races in 2010 and 19 in 2011. Nige competed in 4 races in 94' . He was jumping back and forth between CART and F1, managing different characteristics of a car, different characteristics of circuits. In 1995 he joined McLaren at the last minute, driving an awful car to handle for 2 races (San Marino and Spain) which consequently led him to his final retirement. Completely different situation.

Mansell got his well deserved championship when he was 39. At 40 he went to the CART-series and won there when it was a good series. Remarkable. He didn't drive that much in 1994 - he replaced Coulthard in France and then did the last 3 races.

:up: :up:
Mansell's achievement in CART is vastly underestimated. To learn new circuits at the age of 40, to learn ovals AND winning in rookie season is amazing IMO. It was a particularly risky move. He was competing for the championship while still recovering from wounds after Phoenix. :smoking:

Nige definitely wasn't the same in 94' but, as you've said, still had a lot of speed.
Of course, Schumi is no longer the same driver he had been. Aging is inevitable process. However, I firmly believe he still has a lot to offer in F1. Unlike Mansell(in 94-95), Schumi's fitness is very good and that's a big plus in race pace. He also has stability in the team which helps greatly.
Schumi was extremely close to winning a podium in Canada last season , and I thoroughly believe that if he were given a great car, he could still do magic! :clap:

Edit:Spelling.

Edited by MarioKart, 14 February 2012 - 06:22.


#17135 seahawk

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Posted 14 February 2012 - 06:15

Nobody won in the Mercedes of the last 2 years.

#17136 merschu

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Posted 14 February 2012 - 08:05

Michael And Corinna Schumacher! :rotfl: :lol:

Posted Image

Schumi swaying with the Prince

COLOGNE -
Doll what's going on Monday at the FC-carnival meeting in Sartory, 1600 Jecke settled by Driss game against Hamburg with the good mood.

The players to "Prince Poldi" were pleased with their medals, sports director Volker Finke amused clad in sunglasses and a blond wig, FC fan Michael Schumacher and his wife Corinna schun Celts Walle in orange curls.

Stale Solbakken also coach was very happy, "Here at any rate more than Sunday's mood in the stadium! I like it very much ... "


http://translate.goo...2C11628730.html

Edit: Found a few more pictures from the event.

Posted Image
Posted Image
Posted Image
Posted Image
Posted Image

Edited by merschu, 14 February 2012 - 17:55.


#17137 Jejking

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Posted 14 February 2012 - 08:11

Hahaha. Carnaval is near apparently _O_

#17138 ivand911

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Posted 14 February 2012 - 08:21

Nice outfit. You can trust MS to clothe well. I happy for him.

#17139 fieraku

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Posted 14 February 2012 - 12:34

I need to watch the race again my interest waned a bit after Lewis crashed out, so the main part i remember is Lewis spinning Webber and himself off, then him being quicker than Schumacher which lead to Schumacher forcing him off the track, then of course Lewis crashing into Jenson, so i guess i was feeling a bit mean spirited to Schumacher,

I guess you owe me an apology then :lol:

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#17140 cheapracer

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Posted 14 February 2012 - 17:02

Even finishing a race that chaotic is a good job


Well said and applies for any driver in any "chaotic" wet race.


#17141 cheapracer

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Posted 14 February 2012 - 19:11

For most here this discussion from around the 39 minute mark is very relevant to a lot that's been said by both sides here ....

http://podcast.motor...Pat_Symonds.mp3

#17142 jureF1

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Posted 14 February 2012 - 19:18

a bit of OT, but you started with the carneval :)
This is what happens if you drink with schumacher:
http://translate.goo...d...tml&act=url

:rotfl:

Edited by jureF1, 14 February 2012 - 19:19.


#17143 spacekid

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Posted 14 February 2012 - 21:10

For most here this discussion from around the 39 minute mark is very relevant to a lot that's been said by both sides here ....

http://podcast.motor...Pat_Symonds.mp3


Thanks cheapracer, I really enjoyed listening to all of that, not just the Schumi stuff.

Well if anyone can speak with authority about how good Schumi was in his prime it should be Pat. And he seems to think he was quite good. Will that stop the people who seek to use the fact he isn't as good at 43 from claiming he was never any good because he always had the best car and no opponents? Probably not.

#17144 Kubiccia

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Posted 14 February 2012 - 22:20

You should check out the 1954 Mercedes Benz Streamliner if you think there was no aero development and if the cars had less grip at high speed, then you'd agree that they were inherently more dangerous back then, correct? And don't delude yourself into thinking that just because the cornering speeds were slower back then that the cars themselves were slow or that the reflexes of the drivers back then were any less slow than those of todays' drivers, that's rubbish.

Facts:
_lateral and longitudinal accelerations were ridiculous low in 1950's cars because of very low grip
_acceleration accounts for the change in motion
_If the change in motion(acceleration or reaction of the car) is low, then the human reaction needed to cope with it is therefore slower as well.

There is one seriously deluded person in this debate and it's not me

Emmo did win the Indy 500 that year so he might be a good example that some drivers still can drive into their 40s. You might also want to mention Mario and so on, but the series also had a young Paul Tracy and really good racers. As strange as it may sound today there were a lot of talk about F1 vs Cart/Indycar around 1993 and F1 wasn't that far ahead.


I won't compare it regarding competitiveness or driving skills but the downforce levels of F1 cars in 93 were considerably higher than the ones of Cart. Additionally, F1 cars were 150kg lighter. All this leads to a big difference in car's accelerations.

From many sources that I collected throught out the years:
_F1 cars had about 4000 pounds of downforce at 165mph for Monaco configuration back in the 1994 era(before Imola and the afterwards constant restriction in aerodynamics)
_1994 Cart cars had 3460 pounds of downforce, in their highest downforce configuration, at the speed of 165mph

F1 cars with drivers, oils and etc weighted 595kg back then, while Carts weighted 750kg and I don't even know if driver included.

Anyway - I don't think Michael has lost a lot of speed. Maybe a tenth or something. I think it is more about different team, different rules, different racing. And maybe Rosberg is really fast, who knows?

I think Schumacher is faster now at 43 than when he was at 28. I also think Trulli, who was a very good qualifier a while ago, is even faster now at his advanced age.

Therefore, I think Rosberg and Kovalainen are the fastest drivers F1 has ever seen by a very big margin, considering the gaps they sometimes impose to their team mates.

The disappearance of the EBD might help MSC a little bit - he looked a little bit better in Qualifying in the first half of 2010 (MGP introduced their first EBD in Valencia afaik) against Rosberg than in the 2nd half of 2010 and the 2011 season.
But overall i think he might very likely still lack some pace in Qualifying.

I think only RBR had EBD in 2010. I always thought other teams introduced it only on theirs' 2011 cars. That aside, I also expect to see Rosberg keep faster.

I need to watch the race again my interest waned a bit after Lewis crashed out, so the main part i remember is Lewis spinning Webber and himself off, then him being quicker than Schumacher which lead to Schumacher forcing him off the track, then of course Lewis crashing into Jenson, so i guess i was feeling a bit mean spirited to Schumacher,

I don't remember this at all.

There was so much that happened that i can't recall things, i know strategy played its part somewhat

Strategy had almost 0% in Schumacher's results in Canada. It was like 99,9% his won driving skill climbing throught the field and posting fast laps.

Edited by Kubiccia, 14 February 2012 - 22:25.


#17145 Jejking

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Posted 14 February 2012 - 22:59

Faster at 43 than at 28?? Euhm...

#17146 LiJu914

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Posted 14 February 2012 - 23:07

Faster at 43 than at 28?? Euhm...


I R O .......

#17147 Jejking

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Posted 14 February 2012 - 23:11

Never mind, wasn't paying attention :)

#17148 jj2728

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Posted 14 February 2012 - 23:33

Facts:
_lateral and longitudinal accelerations were ridiculous low in 1950's cars because of very low grip
_acceleration accounts for the change in motion
_If the change in motion(acceleration or reaction of the car) is low, then the human reaction needed to cope with it is therefore slower as well.

There is one seriously deluded person in this debate and it's not me


I give up. Ok, anyone's granny could have driven the cars of the '50s then....

#17149 FenderJaguar

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Posted 15 February 2012 - 10:40

Kubiccia - when you write the figures/numbers and compare F1 and Cart in 93 the difference is there. But it's not that big a difference. F1 was of course more technically advanced and all that - but I was just saying Cart was a competetive series.

#17150 MarioKart

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Posted 15 February 2012 - 11:14

Michael And Corinna Schumacher! :rotfl: :lol:

Posted Image

http://translate.goo...2C11628730.html


:rotfl:
Awesome pics! Schumi looks like Ronald McDonald meets John Lennon in the 1920's :lol: