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#17151 cheapracer

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Posted 15 February 2012 - 11:40

Facts:
_lateral and longitudinal accelerations were ridiculous low in 1950's cars because of very low grip
_acceleration accounts for the change in motion
_If the change in motion(acceleration or reaction of the car) is low, then the human reaction needed to cope with it is therefore slower as well.


Well at least someone "gets it".


Ok, anyone's granny could have driven the cars of the '50s then....

\

No one said that, you simply don't comprehend what skill was required back then ie; not the same skill as is required now. Fangio appeared to have more of that skill than one's Grandmother.

There is a very famous onboard of Fangio in the Maserati at Modena, suggest you watch it and see that no particular fast reactions were required.

Many drivers have been invited by Benz to drive the 1955 GP W196 at demonstrations, it is said Michael Doohan took to it faster than anyone because of his being a bike racer and hence his experience and feel for low grip.



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#17152 jj2728

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Posted 15 February 2012 - 16:25

Facts:
_lateral and longitudinal accelerations were ridiculous low in 1950's cars because of very low grip
_acceleration accounts for the change in motion
_If the change in motion(acceleration or reaction of the car) is low, then the human reaction needed to cope with it is therefore slower as well.

There is one seriously deluded person in this debate and it's not me


You did not answer my question. I said that with less grip (amongst other things) at high speed the cars were inherently more dangerous. I also said that just because the cornering speeds were slower that the cars themselves were not slow AND you ignored that point with a response that had nothing to do with the point I was trying to make. Of course the human reaction needed to cope would be slower as the cars overall were slower than today's cars, but that is not what I was saying, I said that the drivers' reactions (and I'll include the driver's eyesight) were IMHO just as good as today's. The level of physical fitness and the effort and training that go into being fit enough to drive today's F1 car is far beyond the levels of the 50s but that's the evolution of the sport. I dare say though, that competing in a 3 hour GP back in the 50s with cars capable of and on some tracks attaining top speeds of 180mph+ with brakes that were inadequate to the task at hand, manually shifting gears, no power steering, the engine in the front, etc., etc., and competing on tracks where the smallest of mistake's could result in tragedy was a very strenuous proposition and not the typical Sunday drive in the country that some would believe.

#17153 LiJu914

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Posted 15 February 2012 - 16:30

I think you guys debated long enough about this and it becomes less and less relevant for this thread...

Edited by LiJu914, 15 February 2012 - 16:31.


#17154 cheapracer

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Posted 15 February 2012 - 16:38

I think you guys debated long enough about this and it becomes less and less relevant for this thread...


It has relevance, it is an age based debate that is directly related to MS ie; does being 43 years old affect his driving ability and it's natural that previous great's age might be used as a yardstick.

BTW, have you actually applied to be a Moderator?


#17155 LiJu914

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Posted 15 February 2012 - 16:48

1. It has relevance, it is an age based debate that is directly related to MS ie; does being 43 years old affect his driving ability and it's natural that previous great's age might be used as a yardstick.

2. BTW, have you actually applied to be a Moderator?


1. No it hasn´t. They´re hardly talking about age/loss of potential anymore. But i guess if you would read these last few posts (without knowing the thread title), you would immediatley think of Michael Schumacher, right? :rolleyes:

2. I don´t need to be a moderator to voice my opinion about the relevance of certain discussions for a thread.

Edited by LiJu914, 15 February 2012 - 16:48.


#17156 Kubiccia

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Posted 15 February 2012 - 16:53

I give up. Ok, anyone's granny could have driven the cars of the '50s then....

As cheapracer said, I'm not claiming that driving 50's cars were easy, for sure it require talent and skill but the demand in pure reactions were much lower, which allowed for drivers with more age like Fangio, with 46, to be competitive. I don't think Fangio with 57 years old would be able to drive a 50's car but with 46 it was not impossible.

With todays cars, it's already noticeable lack in speed of drivers with high 30's such as Trulli. Do you remember how good Jarno was in qualifyings against team mates such as Alonso, Ralf(who was on par with Montoya in Williams days) and etc?

As reference, last year it was 15-2 for Kovalainen in qualifying(Chandok replaced Jarno in Germany) with some quite big gaps in the following tracks: 9 tenths in Istanbul, 1 second in Barcelona, 1,6s in Silverstone and 9 tenths in Abu Dhabi.

Trulli didn't stop for 3 years and is a bit more than 5 years younger than Schumacher.

I think is valid for some people to think that Schumacher was a mediocre driver who only had rockets, rules for him, bad oponents and etc. They use the situation with Rosberg now to claim that we finally see the "truth", he was a fraud of a driver, he was never that fast and etc.

I shall repeat it is a right for anyone here to have and post those views, however, if you do so, then you must also claim that Trulli was never that fast, now Kovalainen is proving Trulli was never a great qualifier and etc.

Are we all for consistency or not?

#17157 holiday

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Posted 15 February 2012 - 17:08

I think is valid for some people to think that Schumacher was a mediocre driver who only had rockets, rules for him, bad oponents and etc. They use the situation with Rosberg now to claim that we finally see the "truth", he was a fraud of a driver, he was never that fast and etc.


I believe you worry a bit too much about Schumacher's legacy. Did super-greats such as Muhammed Ali, Björn Borg, Michael Jordan and Lance Armstrong hurt their reputation by their less than stellar comebacks? Temporarily, yes, but in the history books it did not diminish their standings one bit. Same is true for Schumacher (who is btw better faring than each of them).

#17158 jj2728

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Posted 15 February 2012 - 17:15

Are we all for consistency or not?


I think we are and the point of it being is that the great drivers have that extra something that gives them the competitive edge. That's why I think that Schumacher at 43 is still extremely competitive, has the skills and capability, and given the proper tools is more than capable of winning again.

#17159 fieraku

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Posted 15 February 2012 - 17:40

I think we are and the point of it being is that the great drivers have that extra something that gives them the competitive edge. That's why I think that Schumacher at 43 is still extremely competitive, has the skills and capability, and given the proper tools is more than capable of winning again.

I will go as far as say if Schu was driving the RB7 with Webber as a teammate not only he'd win races but the WDC as well.He still got it.

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#17160 Buttoneer

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Posted 15 February 2012 - 17:56

Posts deleted; please don't snipe at other posters if you don't have anything constructive to add.

On the matter of relevance; I do see the topic under discussion (age) as being hugely relevant to Michael Schumacher because it is regularly mentioned in relation to his comeback. However, I also think it would make a great topic for a separate thread, which may get useful contributions from posters who are not just interested in Schumie or avoid these driver threads. It's an interesting discussion that deserves a wider audience but might be lost here on page 427-9 interspersed with pics of a man and his wife wearing a wig.

I'm happy to try and split the discussion so if I get more than two PM's confirming that it's a good idea I'll give it a go, otherwise please don't comment here.

-----------
As a matter of interest, I did a search for threads that might already be discussing age and reactions etc that I might link these posts to and found this gem from 2001

"Is Schumacher past his prime?"

A little premature, that one.

#17161 Kubiccia

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Posted 15 February 2012 - 18:13

I think we are and the point of it being is that the great drivers have that extra something that gives them the competitive edge. That's why I think that Schumacher at 43 is still extremely competitive, has the skills and capability, and given the proper tools is more than capable of winning again.

He'll need a hell of car and I'm not that confident Mercedes will provide it this year. And to be completely honest, I'll be surprised if MSC scores even a podium this year.

#17162 jj2728

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Posted 20 February 2012 - 02:03

http://www.f1banter....game-chess.html

#17163 George Costanza

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Posted 20 February 2012 - 02:52

I will go as far as say if Schu was driving the RB7 with Webber as a teammate not only he'd win races but the WDC as well.He still got it.


Of course he would have. RB7 was like F2002.

Edited by George Costanza, 20 February 2012 - 02:56.


#17164 Jejking

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Posted 20 February 2012 - 10:14

That statement alone is something I disagree with. RB7 is a very strong package overall but on pure power not as dominant as F2002 and F2004 were. But Schumacher would probably end up on the podium with it, I'm sure.

http://www.f1banter....game-chess.html

:rotfl:

...

:well:

Edited by Jejking, 20 February 2012 - 10:23.


#17165 jj2728

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Posted 20 February 2012 - 12:43

http://www.f1banter....domination.html

#17166 Jejking

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Posted 20 February 2012 - 13:16

Dude, it's not even close to funny. Nobody's laughing.

#17167 cheapracer

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Posted 20 February 2012 - 13:30

He'll need a hell of car and I'm not that confident Mercedes will provide it this year. And to be completely honest, I'll be surprised if MSC scores even a podium this year.


I can't understand why you would post that a week or 2 before you actually see the car in testing - you would have said exactly the same about Button/Rubens/Brawn in January 2009 ....


#17168 jj2728

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Posted 20 February 2012 - 14:04

Dude, it's not even close to funny. Nobody's laughing.


then don't read it.....dude.

#17169 Kubiccia

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Posted 20 February 2012 - 16:16

I can't understand why you would post that a week or 2 before you actually see the car in testing - you would have said exactly the same about Button/Rubens/Brawn in January 2009 ....

I don't think there is a chance for another Brawn GP surprise here. They hand all Honda money back then and no rule restricting development. So they could run like 2-3 windtunnels 24-7-365(24 hours a day, 7 days a week, all year), more people on the engineering department and etc. Plus, Brawn GP had a cheating device, the infamous DDD.

I don't think we'll have such big things as DDD, EBD this year, from any team.


#17170 spacekid

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Posted 20 February 2012 - 16:23

I'm all up for a funny piece of satire - Schumi's sekret diary used to be funny - but whats going on with those articles on F1 banter? Are those professional journalists? Seriously unfunny stuff.

OT I'm inclined to agree with Kubbiccia - podiums will be very tough for the Merc drivers this year. Looking forward to tomorrows test though! Don't know why, I know it doesn't mean anything.

#17171 Sakae

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Posted 20 February 2012 - 18:17

I don't think there is a chance for another Brawn GP surprise here. They hand all Honda money back then and no rule restricting development. So they could run like 2-3 windtunnels 24-7-365(24 hours a day, 7 days a week, all year), more people on the engineering department and etc. Plus, Brawn GP had a cheating device, the infamous DDD.

I don't think we'll have such big things as DDD, EBD this year, from any team.

Considering that legality of DDD was challenged and case was lost, then I think the language of "cheating" is not entirely correct one, isn't so?

Edited by Sakae, 20 February 2012 - 18:18.


#17172 LiJu914

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Posted 20 February 2012 - 18:26

Considering that legality of DDD was challenged and case was lost, then I think the language of "cheating" is not entirely correct one, isn't so?


Such vocabulary is just tied to a schumacher-thread.  ;)

#17173 cheapracer

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Posted 21 February 2012 - 07:07



I don't think there is a chance for another Brawn GP surprise here.


Wasn't my meaning but you still have no idea of the car's performance good or bad to make such statements.



Plus, Brawn GP had a cheating device,


MS wasn't driving for him then so you can just use the term "device".


#17174 jj2728

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Posted 21 February 2012 - 14:20

I'm all up for a funny piece of satire - Schumi's sekret diary used to be funny - but whats going on with those articles on F1 banter? Are those professional journalists? Seriously unfunny stuff.


The fact that many of you find it unfunny makes the whole thing even more hilarious....

#17175 Jejking

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Posted 21 February 2012 - 14:46

It's unfunny in general. Lewis Hamilton, Michael Schumacher, all the others. Not hilarious at all, not a single **** was given. My cousin writes better jokes already at the age of six.

Edited by Jejking, 21 February 2012 - 14:46.


#17176 jj2728

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Posted 21 February 2012 - 14:50

My cousin writes better jokes already at the age of six.




Prove it, let's see one then....

#17177 Afterburner

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Posted 21 February 2012 - 15:02

The fact that many of you find it unfunny makes the whole thing even more hilarious....

A few of them were amusing, but the only one that I actually laughed out loud at was the one about Massa's all-nighter on Call of Duty. If you've ever played a Call of Duty game online, you would realise that the second paragraph in that article is probably the most accurate summation of the CoD online experience that has ever been put into words. :rotfl:

But we're getting off-topic here--how does everyone feel about MS's chances in the W03 this year? I know it's largely dependent on the car, but I get a positive vibe from what's been said so far. Hopefully we'll see a podium or two this year, and I daresay a win if either MS or Nico find themselves in the right place at the right time.

#17178 spacekid

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Posted 21 February 2012 - 15:28

The fact that many of you find it unfunny makes the whole thing even more hilarious....


Its got nothing at all to do with the pieces being about Schumi, or critical of Schumi. I've read plenty of very funny pieces in the past that took a dig at Michael.

These are just crap.

#17179 spacekid

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Posted 21 February 2012 - 15:36

how does everyone feel about MS's chances in the W03 this year? I know it's largely dependent on the car, but I get a positive vibe from what's been said so far. Hopefully we'll see a podium or two this year, and I daresay a win if either MS or Nico find themselves in the right place at the right time.


Well for me the problem is that Red Bull and McLaren were so far ahead of Mercedes last year I'm not sure how Merc can close the gap, unless both RB and ML both have the most enormous fundamental design SNAFUs this year. Given that the technical regs aren't that much different to 2011 I don't really see the space for that to happen.

Given that, I think the best Merc can hope for is to no longer be racing Force India and instead be racing Ferrari. So far Ferrari don't look to have moved forward too much, but I think Force India may have done, so its still going to be a close fight for 3rd/4th. If Mercs car turns out to be a bit rubbish again once we start racing they could even be facing 5th.

As for Michael himself, well it will be interesting to see if a longer wheelbase and rebalanced car will swing the pendulum towards him and away from Nico. I don't really see why it should, I don't think Nico has been especially benefitting from a difficult car. So really I am hoping for better reliability from Merc so we see both drivers safely through to Q3 in each race, Nico to generally qualify 1-2 spots ahead of Michael, and for the 2 of them to be racing each other for positions 4-7 or thereabouts.

So to answer your question the very definition of upper mid field averageness! Possible podiums in safety car or rain affected races, but then those podiums will also be available to the Ferraris and Force Indias, so there'll be a bit of luck needed there too.

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#17180 MikeTekRacing

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Posted 21 February 2012 - 15:39

Well for me the problem is that Red Bull and McLaren were so far ahead of Mercedes last year I'm not sure how Merc can close the gap, unless both RB and ML both have the most enormous fundamental design SNAFUs this year. Given that the technical regs aren't that much different to 2011 I don't really see the space for that to happen.

the gap thing goes both ways. if the gap last year was because a major design flaw from Mercedes and they fixed that...shouldn't they be in the game?

#17181 spacekid

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Posted 21 February 2012 - 15:51

the gap thing goes both ways. if the gap last year was because a major design flaw from Mercedes and they fixed that...shouldn't they be in the game?


Yes, except that Red Bull and McLaren can both be expected to have moved forward what was already a very strong package, while Merc have hopefully fixed a flawed one. If they have achieved that, and how much they have been able to move forward from that, waits to be seen.

Honestly I don't know, I'm just giving my opinion. It really won't be until the first few races are done that we'll have a clear picture, but for me moving up to be the 3rd best team would represent a strong effort from Merc. There is every chance they could slide back to 5th.

#17182 MikeTekRacing

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Posted 21 February 2012 - 18:37

I agree with RB and McL moving forward a bit. taking a huge step though it's difficult for them also.
I am not saying suddenly Merc will overtake them....it's just that closing the gap doesn't look that impossible if they managed to cure the mistakes done on W02.

of course everything can just go wrong with w03 :D

#17183 Szoelloe

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Posted 21 February 2012 - 18:49

I agree with RB and McL moving forward a bit. taking a huge step though it's difficult for them also.
I am not saying suddenly Merc will overtake them....it's just that closing the gap doesn't look that impossible if they managed to cure the mistakes done on W02.

of course everything can just go wrong with w03 :D


I don't. They could not possibly find more DF than what they lost with an EBD and extreme mapping, which was btw the most effective on those two cars. The rest I agree with, don't think the W03 will kick ass big time, but it could be in the mix sometimes.


#17184 Tarzaan

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Posted 21 February 2012 - 21:51

Michael Schumacher pleased with new Mercedes F1 car potential

http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/97615

#17185 Sakae

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Posted 21 February 2012 - 21:55

Given that, I think the best Merc can hope for is to no longer be racing Force India and instead be racing Ferrari. So far Ferrari don't look to have moved forward too much, but I think Force India may have done, so its still going to be a close fight for 3rd/4th.

Based on..?

#17186 spacekid

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Posted 21 February 2012 - 22:24

Based on..?


Honestly I don't know, I'm just giving my opinion.


But mostly based on my observations of how teams tend to move relative to one another in years when the rules changes are fairly minor - which they are this year compared to say 2005 or 2009. I very much doubt Red Bull or McLaren are going to move backwards relative to any other teams. And also based on the very limited and fairly meaningless testing we've had so far this year - Red Bull and McLaren still look like the 2 best teams, Ferrari may be struggling, and I think Force India could be strong. I think Merc will do very well to be the third best team this year.

But please, don't try to make me pin concrete facts and figures on this because none of us can at this stage - we haven't even seen any sensible testing out of the Merc yet because of the hydarulics problems. We'll know in a few months time for sure where the pace of the cars are. My opinions are just based on past observations and what seems most likely.

#17187 Schumacher7

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Posted 21 February 2012 - 22:57

But mostly based on my observations of how teams tend to move relative to one another in years when the rules changes are fairly minor - which they are this year compared to say 2005 or 2009. I very much doubt Red Bull or McLaren are going to move backwards relative to any other teams. And also based on the very limited and fairly meaningless testing we've had so far this year - Red Bull and McLaren still look like the 2 best teams, Ferrari may be struggling, and I think Force India could be strong. I think Merc will do very well to be the third best team this year.

But please, don't try to make me pin concrete facts and figures on this because none of us can at this stage - we haven't even seen any sensible testing out of the Merc yet because of the hydraulics problems. We'll know in a few months time for sure where the pace of the cars are. My opinions are just based on past observations and what seems most likely.

My thoughts as well (that they'll be fighting for 3rd/4th at best) but I do think with Ferrari rather than Force India, I'd quite like Nico Hulkenburg to do well, could be the next driver I support after Schumi retires for good if he's exciting.

#17188 Fortymark

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Posted 22 February 2012 - 00:55

Fighting with the Force Indias? Arn´t you guys having a little too low expectations now?
They have Brawn, Rob Bell, Geoff Willis, Aldo Costa, the best engine and the almighty Schumacher pointing
in which direction the car should develope to?!

#17189 Kubiccia

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Posted 22 February 2012 - 02:44

Indeed. I think Force India will disapoint many people who think they'll be fast.

#17190 TheBunk

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Posted 22 February 2012 - 04:03

Michael Schumacher pleased with new Mercedes F1 car potential

http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/97615



That man sounds very confident. :up:

#17191 Tarzaan

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Posted 22 February 2012 - 09:49

MICHAEL SCHUMACHER LOOKS AHEAD TO F1 2012 (video)

http://www.crash.net...to_f1_2012.html


NORBERT HAUG ON MERCEDES LATEST F1 CHALLENGE (video)

http://www.crash.net..._challenge.html

#17192 cheapracer

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Posted 22 February 2012 - 11:31

Indeed. I think Force India will disapoint many people who think they'll be fast.


I'll put a dollar against that, I reckon you'll see Force India mixing it at the front.

As for Michael himself, well it will be interesting to see if a longer wheelbase and rebalanced car will swing the pendulum towards him and away from Nico.


The team can not afford to be selfish in anyway towards either driver at this time. I believe their likes are very similar anyway.

Edited by cheapracer, 22 February 2012 - 11:34.


#17193 Sakae

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Posted 22 February 2012 - 11:37

I'll put a dollar against that, I reckon you'll see Force India mixing it at the front.



The team can not afford to be selfish in anyway towards either driver at this time. I believe their likes are very similar anyway.


Just wait what will happen on this BB regarding this change, should Michael get better of Nico by November.

#17194 spacekid

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Posted 22 February 2012 - 11:41

The team can not afford to be selfish in anyway towards either driver at this time. I believe their likes are very similar anyway.


Oh don't get me wrong, I'mn not suggesting for a moment that I think Mercedes would change anything to suit Michael over Nico, and I'm aware that they both prefer a slightly more over-steery car (so I've read). But every combination of car and tyres will tend to suit one driver a little more than the other, I'm just saying it will be interesting to see if this year there is a difference in pace differential between them. If age has given Michael problems adapting his driving style as well as he used to when he was young then a car that plays to his strengths more should bring him closer to Nico in pace, even if Nico likes the car too.

Of course this car could end up suiting Nico even more. Probably they'll be about the same, we'll see.

#17195 spacekid

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Posted 22 February 2012 - 11:44

Just wait what will happen on this BB regarding this change, should Michael get better of Nico by November.


Cheat! Favouritism!

Austria 2002! Austria 2002! Austria 2002! Austria 2002! Austria 2002! Austria 2002!
Austria 2002! Jerez 1997! Austria 2002! Austria 2002! Austria 2002! Austria 2002!
Austria 2002! Austria 2002! Austria 2002! Monaco2006! Austria 2002! Austria 2002!
Austria 2002! Adelaide 94 ! Austria 2002! Austria 2002! Austria 2002! Austria 2002!
Austria 2002! Austria 2002! Austria 2002! Austria 2002! Austria 2002! Austria 2002!

AUSTRIA 2002!!!!!!!!!!

Is my guess of what would happen.

#17196 cheapracer

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Posted 22 February 2012 - 11:58

Of course this car could end up suiting Nico even more. Probably they'll be about the same, we'll see.


Firstly Benz are about selling cars, thats why they are there - so if it comes to the crunch and "Schumacher wins!!" can find it's way to every major newspaper's front or back page around the world then that's what they will do before he retires ie; using up every bit of PR value they can for their money.

Like it or not that is simply better PR value than "Rosberg Wins!"

Of course there are those around who can not appreciate the simplest of business practices.

#17197 spacekid

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Posted 22 February 2012 - 12:04

Firstly Benz are about selling cars, thats why they are there - so if it comes to the crunch and "Schumacher wins!!" can find it's way to every major newspaper's front or back page around the world then that's what they will do before he retires ie; using up every bit of PR value they can for their money.

Like it or not that is simply better PR value than "Rosberg Wins!"

Of course there are those around who can not appreciate the simplest of business practices.


I'm not sure that I agree. Mercedes are a race team, I'd be very dissapointed if they actively sought to make a car that favoured one driver so heavily against the other. I also don't think thats a very good strategy for winning.

In fact I've found your post to be strangely at odds with you above comment that Mercedes cannot afford to be selfish and favour either driver - a statement I completely agree with.

I would expect Mercedes to produce the best race car they can. I am simply saying it will be interesting to see if one driver finds it more to his liking than the other, which is a natural possibility with a new design.

Edited by spacekid, 22 February 2012 - 12:06.


#17198 Schumacher7

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Posted 22 February 2012 - 14:49

I'm not sure that I agree. Mercedes are a race team, I'd be very dissapointed if they actively sought to make a car that favoured one driver so heavily against the other. I also don't think thats a very good strategy for winning.

In fact I've found your post to be strangely at odds with you above comment that Mercedes cannot afford to be selfish and favour either driver - a statement I completely agree with.

I would expect Mercedes to produce the best race car they can. I am simply saying it will be interesting to see if one driver finds it more to his liking than the other, which is a natural possibility with a new design.

I don't think he's saying they would, he's saying they would rather Schumacher win over Rosberg as it would make them more money, they're a business after all, money's what they're here for.

#17199 cheapracer

cheapracer
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Posted 23 February 2012 - 15:43

Ironman!

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#17200 cheapracer

cheapracer
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Posted 23 February 2012 - 17:53

Pretty typical isn't it; Today MS reels off an impressive double GP+ 120 odd laps and laps a second quicker than Rosberg's best yesterday but no response at all ..... :lol: