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Michael Schumacher (merged)


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#17651 Jejking

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 15:19

okay slowly was probably a bit over the top, but if you can't recognise a difference between someone outbraking themselves and someone losing drive and aborting in mid corner when you see it (even though everyone else could recognise it) then you are going to, and do, look a bit daft.

Actually that Berbesa guy or whatever his name is, raised a reasonably good point. Doesn't this incident remind you of something else with cause and effect alongside each other? Hungary 2011, where MSC spun off and retired because the gearbox went up into smoke as well. That was one of the most vague retirements I've seen in this modern era, actually. What do you think, about the same story here? I suspect it might be.

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#17652 zelpre

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 19:19

Michael in an Interview with German Sky: It is a pitty that we had the Gearbox problem, cause i would have loved to get my first podium for Mercedes today. Still the weekend has been very positive. Who would have thought last year that we would be up figthing with the Red Bulls.



#17653 zyphro

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 19:30

:up:

#17654 exmayol

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 19:39

While DNF is not fun overall pace / comfort is encouraging! Anywhere from 4th to 6th would have been very realistic today. So cool that Malaysia is just one week away! I am however concerned about RB comments about tires going off faster than they expected meaning in Sepang things might get even worse.

#17655 Ruf

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 19:47

Not necessarily, Albert Park is a street circuit, Sepang is not. I'm more worried about Montreal and Monaco, but I trust that by then they'll fix it!

#17656 Claudius

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 20:33


I wonder if VB will accept that explanation from MS or if he'll come up with other bright ideas.


#17657 tommyhjortasen

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 21:04

MS suffered from a gearboxproblem today, of the Mercedes drivers he gets my vote today.

#17658 spacekid

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 22:01

Not sure what to make of this weekend. The quali was solid, and Michaels race was going pretty well until the problem. We don't know how well his tyres were holding up compared to Rosbergs, or how his race pace would have been. He was around a second a lap faster until the retirement.

Then again Nico is a strong driver and the Mercedes made him look slow. Or did he just have an off weekend? Then again Albert park is a street circuit, the car might have better race pace on other tracks. Then again then again...

Edited by spacekid, 18 March 2012 - 22:01.


#17659 VresiBerba

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 23:22

Wow, Vettle deserves drive of the year already then, 2nd place with an obviously broken gearbox after his off in T1

I thought you had me on ignore. Oy vey.


I mean "but in the end, I had to go onto the grass to avoid the risk of the car being forced into a spin, which he did in lap 10, T1. He managed to nurse the car to the pit-lane afterall...

I think* that Shumi meant after the fact.


*I'm pretty sure

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#17660 VresiBerba

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 23:27

I wonder if VB will accept that explanation from MS or if he'll come up with other bright ideas.

I already said that I'm pretty much open minded about Shumi's retirement.
Do I take everything Shumi says as gospel? No, I don't.
Do I automatically think Shumi is lying? No, I don't.

#17661 Igorr

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Posted 19 March 2012 - 00:42

Alguesuari said as well that Michael didnt try to turn in and didnt brake at all before thhe turn in and said why would he ran off intentionally off track unless he has a problem lol this was before the gearbox problem was reported which explains pretty much everything.

#17662 Igorr

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Posted 19 March 2012 - 00:49

haha it doesnt even matter anymore. If people feel better if Michael damaged the gears by himself with running off then let them believe. Nothing's gonna change in reality.

#17663 Tardis40

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Posted 19 March 2012 - 01:14

Obviously when you expect engine braking from a downshift and you don't get it the car is going to run wide in that situation.

#17664 RSNS

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Posted 19 March 2012 - 01:52

An interesting analysis of Schumacher's style, by one of the members (I could not find his name).
http://abulafiaf1.wo...ael-schumacher/


#17665 Jejking

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Posted 19 March 2012 - 08:33

Do I take everything Shumi says as gospel? No, I don't.
Do I automatically think Shumi is lying? No, I don't.

Well with several guys from the field stating stuff which isn't close to your explanation, I do think you automatically think Schumacher is lying.

Obviously when you expect engine braking from a downshift and you don't get it the car is going to run wide in that situation.

Engine braking was mentioned on Dutch TV yesterday as well. But wasn't F1 the case where the cars did not have EB at all and the driver is just only looking to select the perfect gear for acceleration out of the corner later on? I heard that one several times, hope to see one definitive answer.

@ above: was posted already before, the poster came to the boards too ;)

Edited by Jejking, 19 March 2012 - 08:34.


#17666 MCh000

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Posted 19 March 2012 - 08:42

...Engine braking was mentioned on Dutch TV yesterday as well. But wasn't F1 the case where the cars did not have EB at all and the driver is just only looking to select the perfect gear for acceleration out of the corner later on?...


Engine braking is something that simply exists when a driver lifts his foot off accelerator on gear. I think this also how drivers charge their KERS systems.

#17667 Jejking

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Posted 19 March 2012 - 08:59

Engine braking is something that simply exists when a driver lifts his foot off accelerator on gear. I think this also how drivers charge their KERS systems.

First thing is possible, aight. Anyone else?

Second statement can't be because KERS exists completely off brake energy :p

#17668 Scotracer

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Posted 19 March 2012 - 09:16

First thing is possible, aight. Anyone else?

Second statement can't be because KERS exists completely off brake energy :p


Both statements are correct. Lifting off the throttle will charge the KERS.

#17669 Hacklerf

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Posted 19 March 2012 - 09:44

Im putting a bet on Schumi pole in Malaysia

#17670 merschu

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Posted 19 March 2012 - 12:27

Interesting video of Schumi after the FP3 crash in Melbourne, he never leaves his car alone after a crash and goes straight back into the pitlane.


Edited by merschu, 19 March 2012 - 12:27.


#17671 holiday

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Posted 19 March 2012 - 19:13

Interesting video of Schumi after the FP3 crash in Melbourne, he never leaves his car alone after a crash and goes straight back into the pitlane.


5:56 is priceless! :lol:


#17672 Pits

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Posted 19 March 2012 - 20:12

Well It's clear that he didn't want them to take a picture of the buttom of the front wing.
Like rats, they await there chance to snap a picture. It's ashame he spinned because it confirmed the way the air-duct works and how it blows.

#17673 Tarzaan

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Posted 20 March 2012 - 08:56

Michael Schumacher Qualifyng 2012 Melbourne



#17674 merschu

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Posted 20 March 2012 - 09:49

Found this on twitter: https://twitter.com/#!/ElenaSchu/status...0610432/photo/1

Michael had some fun after the Australian GP!

Posted Image



Edited by merschu, 20 March 2012 - 09:50.


#17675 libano

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Posted 20 March 2012 - 09:52

Michael Schumacher Qualifyng 2012 Melbourne


i'm not an expert to tell whether that was good or not but it looked like it wasn't a perfect lap...

#17676 MCh000

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Posted 20 March 2012 - 10:19

Even if the car looked like easy and smooth to drive, but somehow the car was a bit floating in this video. The lack of downforce?

#17677 slideways

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Posted 20 March 2012 - 10:22

Posted Image


Nice :up:

#17678 Sakae

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Posted 20 March 2012 - 13:13

In another thread a poster accused Schumacher of damaging his gearbox by going off track. In contrast, there is MS's explanation. What do we believe? I am with Michael on this issue. Is there any other independent judgement (or Merc confirmation) available about the incident?

#17679 Tardis40

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Posted 20 March 2012 - 13:24

You can see that when he went off, he didn't even try to recover. Obviously he knew something was wrong immediately.



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#17680 sharo

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Posted 20 March 2012 - 13:32

In another thread a poster accused Schumacher of damaging his gearbox by going off track. In contrast, there is MS's explanation. What do we believe? I am with Michael on this issue. Is there any other independent judgement (or Merc confirmation) available about the incident?

I don't care about the opinion of armchair experts who most probably have no idea how a gearbox works.

#17681 Sakae

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Posted 20 March 2012 - 13:38

You can see that when he went off, he didn't even try to recover. Obviously he knew something was wrong immediately.

In my understanding, based on post-race interviews, that he knew about his problems for some time. I am not sure on which lap it started, and it could go back all the way to lap 1. It sounded to me that anomaly was intermittent, yet at the end he feared car will go into a spin. I wish someone could explain this as vector diagrams step by step, because it's an interesting case, and as a fan I would like to understand technical aspects of it. Why would car want to go into a spin? Perhaps he could not downshift, and had too much torque and speed for that turn...

#17682 sharo

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Posted 20 March 2012 - 13:55

I suppose if the drive engages already into the curve with higher than normal speed and force on the brakes, the effect is like if you pull the handbrake on your car while turning - you go into a spin.

#17683 randomisation

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Posted 20 March 2012 - 14:15

In my understanding, based on post-race interviews, that he knew about his problems for some time. I am not sure on which lap it started, and it could go back all the way to lap 1. It sounded to me that anomaly was intermittent, yet at the end he feared car will go into a spin. I wish someone could explain this as vector diagrams step by step, because it's an interesting case, and as a fan I would like to understand technical aspects of it. Why would car want to go into a spin? Perhaps he could not downshift, and had too much torque and speed for that turn...

This is just a shot in the dark as I haven't seen any onboard footage of his off but maybe it was skipping gears on downshifts (say 4th to 2nd) and unsettling the rear of the car as a result of the increased engine braking. Alternatively maybe it was going into neutral as it failed to engage 3rd, requiring Michael to apply more brake pressure, and THEN it engages a lower gear and again unsettles the rear by trying to brake too much.

#17684 Sakae

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Posted 20 March 2012 - 14:26

This is just a shot in the dark as I haven't seen any onboard footage of his off but maybe it was skipping gears on downshifts (say 4th to 2nd) and unsettling the rear of the car as a result of the increased engine braking. Alternatively maybe it was going into neutral as it failed to engage 3rd, requiring Michael to apply more brake pressure, and THEN it engages a lower gear and again unsettles the rear by trying to brake too much.



It is certainly interesting, and it seems explantion would required more data from telemetry to understand whole situation correctly. Under conditions described he could nurse it to the pits at best, but hardly to the end of a meaningful race. Thanks anyway, good try.

#17685 Ruf

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Posted 20 March 2012 - 14:33

This is just a shot in the dark as I haven't seen any onboard footage of his off but maybe it was skipping gears on downshifts (say 4th to 2nd) and unsettling the rear of the car as a result of the increased engine braking. Alternatively maybe it was going into neutral as it failed to engage 3rd, requiring Michael to apply more brake pressure, and THEN it engages a lower gear and again unsettles the rear by trying to brake too much.

I believe that the lack of engine braking (either going in neutral or staying in a high gear) would require more brake, hence the risk of locking the rear wheels hence spin, so Michael didn't even try to slam the brakes and turn to take the corner properly. More engine brake (missing 3rd but still engaging 2nd for example) would not lock the rear.

#17686 654321

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Posted 20 March 2012 - 14:36

drivers start braking for T1 just after going under the bridge,which is somewhere between the 100 and 50m mark...and they go down from either 6th or 7th to 3rd in a very short time,so it's easy to imagine if there was any gearbox issues,and he couldnt engage 3rd ,that by going into 2nd would be too extremeand too soon and car will spin out..so he plows through the grass in low rpm 4th to save it


edit: or he was in 2nd but had to go straight in order not to lose the rear

Edited by 654321, 20 March 2012 - 17:58.


#17687 MikeTekRacing

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Posted 20 March 2012 - 17:19

drivers balance the car with both brake and throttle and michael is known for actually never being off the throttle even when braking.
after braking though they are all "on it" and no drive can unsettle you if (if you're counting on drive there)

#17688 cheapracer

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Posted 20 March 2012 - 17:56

drivers balance the car with both brake and throttle



Easy task for you armchair experts, go out and get into your car, approach a corner in a sporty way in your normal gear that you would choose and then do it again the same only this time throw the car into neutral/declutch and turn the corner - the difference should convince some of you of the importance of the balance mentioned above.

Mind you that's for those of you old enough, otherwise just ask Mum to help you out, maybe you can change the gears for her like you do sometimes when you get driven to school.


#17689 cheapracer

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Posted 20 March 2012 - 18:09

QUOTE
Michael in an Interview with German Sky: It is a pitty that we had the Gearbox problem, cause i would have loved to get my first podium for Mercedes today. Still the weekend has been very positive. Who would have thought last year that we would be up figthing with the Red Bulls.


I would have to think the RBR's would have eventually blown past him but he may have had a fight with Alonso.



I thought you had me on ignore. Oy vey.


Don't flatter yourself Mate, I get around and use often computers other than my own and without first logging in, your troll worthy comments appear right before my eyes... and then sadly there's the reply boxes from silly people who actually get sucked in in by your troll worthy comments.

Of course I'm not calling you a troll which might be against forum rules, just suggesting that your comments are troll worthy if a troll was to use similar.

#17690 F1Champion

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Posted 20 March 2012 - 18:51

Vresi, you do know that if the gearbox isn't working and doesn't downshift properly then the car won't make the corner because of a lack of engine braking? That's the reason for going off, if Michael tried to take the corner without engine braking to scrub off speed he would of spun off.


#17691 Schumacher7

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Posted 20 March 2012 - 19:02

Easy task for you armchair experts, go out and get into your car, approach a corner in a sporty way in your normal gear that you would choose and then do it again the same only this time throw the car into neutral/declutch and turn the corner - the difference should convince some of you of the importance of the balance mentioned above.

Mind you that's for those of you old enough, otherwise just ask Mum to help you out, maybe you can change the gears for her like you do sometimes when you get driven to school.

Any particular reason you made that post? I'm probably missing something but I can't see which part of that post you're replying to. :/

#17692 MikeTekRacing

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Posted 20 March 2012 - 20:33

I don't think he was replying to me

#17693 Schumacher7

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Posted 20 March 2012 - 21:32

I don't think he was replying to me

Ah right sorry, it was just the way he quoted you and then said "you armchair experts" there were probably some posts further up I didn't see, my apologies.

Edited by Schumacher7, 20 March 2012 - 21:33.


#17694 654321

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Posted 20 March 2012 - 22:51

u dont need to be an arm chair expert to put two and two together,since there's only so many things that could happen

#17695 abulafiaF1

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Posted 21 March 2012 - 07:51

Easy task for you armchair experts, go out and get into your car, approach a corner in a sporty way in your normal gear that you would choose and then do it again the same only this time throw the car into neutral/declutch and turn the corner - the difference should convince some of you of the importance of the balance mentioned above.

Mind you that's for those of you old enough, otherwise just ask Mum to help you out, maybe you can change the gears for her like you do sometimes when you get driven to school.


:up: :up:

It's completely pointless trying to argue the basics of driving - not just F1 driving, just driving. However, just to add another point to the discussion: Over the last years, F1 cars have been very stable and able to carry a lot of speed into the corners. If you notice, since 2004 - 2005, the top drivers have developped a driving technique that involves slight understeer up to a few meters before the apex (works in slow and medium speed corners) and then a downshift, right before the apex to bring the nose in, using the engine braking. In the past, the drivers used to do most of their downshifting in the straight braking area. Senna was notorious for over-revving his engine under braking, using everything that the engine had to add to the car's braking efficiency. If you want an example of this downshifting technique at the apex, look at this lap Schumacher onboard Melbourne 2012 and notice what's going on at Turn 1. Michael gets on with his downshifting in a straight line, understeers the car towards the entry, and a few meters before the apex does one more downshift to bring the nose in.

Schumi's off track moment in the race is a typical example of a gearbox not working properly. People who are suggesting that you can actually drive a F1 car fast into a corner without engine braking are only deluding themselves. Also, I can't believe that some have suggested that his off track excursion damaged the gearbox. No, it didn't and it couldn't have. The gearbox is protected by the floor and its casing and can't be bothered by a few grass and dirt bits hitting the underside. The only area of a car that can potentially have problems after such a minor off is the cooling.

Edited by abulafiaF1, 21 March 2012 - 07:53.


#17696 libano

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Posted 21 March 2012 - 09:33

As they say, never let facts get in the way of a good story.  ;)

#17697 hansmann

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Posted 21 March 2012 - 12:04

If you want an example of this downshifting technique at the apex, look at this lap Schumacher onboard Melbourne 2012 and notice what's going on at Turn 1. Michael gets on with his downshifting in a straight line, understeers the car towards the entry, and a few meters before the apex does one more downshift to bring the nose in.


Another arm chair expert opinion - you can also hear how he gets on the throttle before he reaches the apex of the turns, which I believe is called throttle steering .
When your at a certain angle, this pushes the rear wheels out past the front wheels' turning arch - hope that makes sense .
When you have done a little adventurous driving in an RWD car, you will know what I mean .

If you are not in the right gear to power the rear, or even in neutral, you can easily understeer off the track, or have too much power and spin .
Loosing a gear can also mean no short-shifting option to adjust your power and speed out of the corner .

Either way, when you drive an F1 car on the edge, you really don't want to be one gear short when manouvering a fast turn , I suppose .

#17698 abulafiaF1

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Posted 21 March 2012 - 13:23

Another arm chair expert opinion - you can also hear how he gets on the throttle before he reaches the apex of the turns, which I believe is called throttle steering .
When your at a certain angle, this pushes the rear wheels out past the front wheels' turning arch - hope that makes sense .
When you have done a little adventurous driving in an RWD car, you will know what I mean .

If you are not in the right gear to power the rear, or even in neutral, you can easily understeer off the track, or have too much power and spin .
Loosing a gear can also mean no short-shifting option to adjust your power and speed out of the corner .

Either way, when you drive an F1 car on the edge, you really don't want to be one gear short when manouvering a fast turn , I suppose .


I completely agree with your throttle steering comment and, generally, everything in your post. However, I fail to see how this contradicts what I am saying...

#17699 Sakae

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Posted 21 March 2012 - 16:01

Abu, from what you have seen thus far at the front, may I ask how do you see next race to develop for Michael?

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#17700 hansmann

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Posted 21 March 2012 - 16:04

I completely agree with your throttle steering comment and, generally, everything in your post. However, I fail to see how this contradicts what I am saying...


I didn't mean to contradict what you were saying, just add to it .;)