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#17701 sharo

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Posted 20 March 2012 - 13:55

I suppose if the drive engages already into the curve with higher than normal speed and force on the brakes, the effect is like if you pull the handbrake on your car while turning - you go into a spin.

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#17702 randomisation

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Posted 20 March 2012 - 14:15

In my understanding, based on post-race interviews, that he knew about his problems for some time. I am not sure on which lap it started, and it could go back all the way to lap 1. It sounded to me that anomaly was intermittent, yet at the end he feared car will go into a spin. I wish someone could explain this as vector diagrams step by step, because it's an interesting case, and as a fan I would like to understand technical aspects of it. Why would car want to go into a spin? Perhaps he could not downshift, and had too much torque and speed for that turn...

This is just a shot in the dark as I haven't seen any onboard footage of his off but maybe it was skipping gears on downshifts (say 4th to 2nd) and unsettling the rear of the car as a result of the increased engine braking. Alternatively maybe it was going into neutral as it failed to engage 3rd, requiring Michael to apply more brake pressure, and THEN it engages a lower gear and again unsettles the rear by trying to brake too much.

#17703 Sakae

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Posted 20 March 2012 - 14:26

This is just a shot in the dark as I haven't seen any onboard footage of his off but maybe it was skipping gears on downshifts (say 4th to 2nd) and unsettling the rear of the car as a result of the increased engine braking. Alternatively maybe it was going into neutral as it failed to engage 3rd, requiring Michael to apply more brake pressure, and THEN it engages a lower gear and again unsettles the rear by trying to brake too much.



It is certainly interesting, and it seems explantion would required more data from telemetry to understand whole situation correctly. Under conditions described he could nurse it to the pits at best, but hardly to the end of a meaningful race. Thanks anyway, good try.

#17704 Ruf

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Posted 20 March 2012 - 14:33

This is just a shot in the dark as I haven't seen any onboard footage of his off but maybe it was skipping gears on downshifts (say 4th to 2nd) and unsettling the rear of the car as a result of the increased engine braking. Alternatively maybe it was going into neutral as it failed to engage 3rd, requiring Michael to apply more brake pressure, and THEN it engages a lower gear and again unsettles the rear by trying to brake too much.

I believe that the lack of engine braking (either going in neutral or staying in a high gear) would require more brake, hence the risk of locking the rear wheels hence spin, so Michael didn't even try to slam the brakes and turn to take the corner properly. More engine brake (missing 3rd but still engaging 2nd for example) would not lock the rear.

#17705 654321

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Posted 20 March 2012 - 14:36

drivers start braking for T1 just after going under the bridge,which is somewhere between the 100 and 50m mark...and they go down from either 6th or 7th to 3rd in a very short time,so it's easy to imagine if there was any gearbox issues,and he couldnt engage 3rd ,that by going into 2nd would be too extremeand too soon and car will spin out..so he plows through the grass in low rpm 4th to save it


edit: or he was in 2nd but had to go straight in order not to lose the rear

Edited by 654321, 20 March 2012 - 17:58.


#17706 MikeTekRacing

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Posted 20 March 2012 - 17:19

drivers balance the car with both brake and throttle and michael is known for actually never being off the throttle even when braking.
after braking though they are all "on it" and no drive can unsettle you if (if you're counting on drive there)

#17707 cheapracer

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Posted 20 March 2012 - 17:56

drivers balance the car with both brake and throttle



Easy task for you armchair experts, go out and get into your car, approach a corner in a sporty way in your normal gear that you would choose and then do it again the same only this time throw the car into neutral/declutch and turn the corner - the difference should convince some of you of the importance of the balance mentioned above.

Mind you that's for those of you old enough, otherwise just ask Mum to help you out, maybe you can change the gears for her like you do sometimes when you get driven to school.


#17708 cheapracer

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Posted 20 March 2012 - 18:09

QUOTE
Michael in an Interview with German Sky: It is a pitty that we had the Gearbox problem, cause i would have loved to get my first podium for Mercedes today. Still the weekend has been very positive. Who would have thought last year that we would be up figthing with the Red Bulls.


I would have to think the RBR's would have eventually blown past him but he may have had a fight with Alonso.



I thought you had me on ignore. Oy vey.


Don't flatter yourself Mate, I get around and use often computers other than my own and without first logging in, your troll worthy comments appear right before my eyes... and then sadly there's the reply boxes from silly people who actually get sucked in in by your troll worthy comments.

Of course I'm not calling you a troll which might be against forum rules, just suggesting that your comments are troll worthy if a troll was to use similar.

#17709 F1Champion

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Posted 20 March 2012 - 18:51

Vresi, you do know that if the gearbox isn't working and doesn't downshift properly then the car won't make the corner because of a lack of engine braking? That's the reason for going off, if Michael tried to take the corner without engine braking to scrub off speed he would of spun off.


#17710 Schumacher7

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Posted 20 March 2012 - 19:02

Easy task for you armchair experts, go out and get into your car, approach a corner in a sporty way in your normal gear that you would choose and then do it again the same only this time throw the car into neutral/declutch and turn the corner - the difference should convince some of you of the importance of the balance mentioned above.

Mind you that's for those of you old enough, otherwise just ask Mum to help you out, maybe you can change the gears for her like you do sometimes when you get driven to school.

Any particular reason you made that post? I'm probably missing something but I can't see which part of that post you're replying to. :/

#17711 MikeTekRacing

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Posted 20 March 2012 - 20:33

I don't think he was replying to me

#17712 Schumacher7

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Posted 20 March 2012 - 21:32

I don't think he was replying to me

Ah right sorry, it was just the way he quoted you and then said "you armchair experts" there were probably some posts further up I didn't see, my apologies.

Edited by Schumacher7, 20 March 2012 - 21:33.


#17713 654321

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Posted 20 March 2012 - 22:51

u dont need to be an arm chair expert to put two and two together,since there's only so many things that could happen

#17714 abulafiaF1

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Posted 21 March 2012 - 07:51

Easy task for you armchair experts, go out and get into your car, approach a corner in a sporty way in your normal gear that you would choose and then do it again the same only this time throw the car into neutral/declutch and turn the corner - the difference should convince some of you of the importance of the balance mentioned above.

Mind you that's for those of you old enough, otherwise just ask Mum to help you out, maybe you can change the gears for her like you do sometimes when you get driven to school.


:up: :up:

It's completely pointless trying to argue the basics of driving - not just F1 driving, just driving. However, just to add another point to the discussion: Over the last years, F1 cars have been very stable and able to carry a lot of speed into the corners. If you notice, since 2004 - 2005, the top drivers have developped a driving technique that involves slight understeer up to a few meters before the apex (works in slow and medium speed corners) and then a downshift, right before the apex to bring the nose in, using the engine braking. In the past, the drivers used to do most of their downshifting in the straight braking area. Senna was notorious for over-revving his engine under braking, using everything that the engine had to add to the car's braking efficiency. If you want an example of this downshifting technique at the apex, look at this lap Schumacher onboard Melbourne 2012 and notice what's going on at Turn 1. Michael gets on with his downshifting in a straight line, understeers the car towards the entry, and a few meters before the apex does one more downshift to bring the nose in.

Schumi's off track moment in the race is a typical example of a gearbox not working properly. People who are suggesting that you can actually drive a F1 car fast into a corner without engine braking are only deluding themselves. Also, I can't believe that some have suggested that his off track excursion damaged the gearbox. No, it didn't and it couldn't have. The gearbox is protected by the floor and its casing and can't be bothered by a few grass and dirt bits hitting the underside. The only area of a car that can potentially have problems after such a minor off is the cooling.

Edited by abulafiaF1, 21 March 2012 - 07:53.


#17715 libano

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Posted 21 March 2012 - 09:33

As they say, never let facts get in the way of a good story.  ;)

#17716 hansmann

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Posted 21 March 2012 - 12:04

If you want an example of this downshifting technique at the apex, look at this lap Schumacher onboard Melbourne 2012 and notice what's going on at Turn 1. Michael gets on with his downshifting in a straight line, understeers the car towards the entry, and a few meters before the apex does one more downshift to bring the nose in.


Another arm chair expert opinion - you can also hear how he gets on the throttle before he reaches the apex of the turns, which I believe is called throttle steering .
When your at a certain angle, this pushes the rear wheels out past the front wheels' turning arch - hope that makes sense .
When you have done a little adventurous driving in an RWD car, you will know what I mean .

If you are not in the right gear to power the rear, or even in neutral, you can easily understeer off the track, or have too much power and spin .
Loosing a gear can also mean no short-shifting option to adjust your power and speed out of the corner .

Either way, when you drive an F1 car on the edge, you really don't want to be one gear short when manouvering a fast turn , I suppose .

#17717 abulafiaF1

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Posted 21 March 2012 - 13:23

Another arm chair expert opinion - you can also hear how he gets on the throttle before he reaches the apex of the turns, which I believe is called throttle steering .
When your at a certain angle, this pushes the rear wheels out past the front wheels' turning arch - hope that makes sense .
When you have done a little adventurous driving in an RWD car, you will know what I mean .

If you are not in the right gear to power the rear, or even in neutral, you can easily understeer off the track, or have too much power and spin .
Loosing a gear can also mean no short-shifting option to adjust your power and speed out of the corner .

Either way, when you drive an F1 car on the edge, you really don't want to be one gear short when manouvering a fast turn , I suppose .


I completely agree with your throttle steering comment and, generally, everything in your post. However, I fail to see how this contradicts what I am saying...

#17718 Sakae

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Posted 21 March 2012 - 16:01

Abu, from what you have seen thus far at the front, may I ask how do you see next race to develop for Michael?

#17719 hansmann

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Posted 21 March 2012 - 16:04

I completely agree with your throttle steering comment and, generally, everything in your post. However, I fail to see how this contradicts what I am saying...


I didn't mean to contradict what you were saying, just add to it .;)

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#17720 Schumacher7

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Posted 21 March 2012 - 17:00

I completely agree with your throttle steering comment and, generally, everything in your post. However, I fail to see how this contradicts what I am saying...

I believe he meant the idea he was putting forward was another armchair expert opinion. I don't think that bit was directed at you.

#17721 abulafiaF1

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Posted 21 March 2012 - 17:21

I didn't mean to contradict what you were saying, just add to it .;)


Oh... OK! :wave:

@Sakae: ......very difficult to say. Michael has good knowledge of the track. It's a circuit that requires confidence in your machinery in order to do well. Characteristic examples:

Posted Image

Turn 01 needs a car that is very stable under braking and doesn't lock the brakes as the inside front tyre is gradually unloaded
Turns 05 and 06 constitute one of the most extreme examples of weight transfer in the entire F1 calendar. Confidence at the back end of the car is crucial there.
The exit of Turn 09 is tricky because it's very hard to put the power down, but the really difficult part is the very late apex into 11, that requires geometric precision...
Finally, Turn 12 really tests the downforce levels of a car, but you can actually lose or gain a lot of time braking and turning for 14. Turn 13 gradually becomes the tight 14, which means that you have to unload the car from the Gs of 13, brake and adopt a very wide line and a late apex to maximize the exit down the back straight.

I mention all the above examples because they require absolute confidence in the car, and handling predictability. It's therefore very difficult to predict how Michael will fare. If the car goes well, and the tyres are properly switched on, then he should be in the hunt for the front row of the grid. If however, the car is off, even by a small bit, then this will have a huge effect on laptimes. Many suggest that Sepang is defined by its high-G corners, but the majority of the laptime can be lost or found in the low to med speed corners (01, 02, 04, 09, 11, 14 and 15). F1 cars spend a lot of time there...

#17722 Sakae

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Posted 21 March 2012 - 17:37

I am thinking that Mercedes might have parity, if not upper hand with RBR on straights, and corners could be defended. I have Michael in top five (again).

#17723 ali.unal

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Posted 21 March 2012 - 17:41

http://static.sidepo...circuit_map.png

Turn 01 needs a car that is very stable under braking and doesn't lock the brakes as the inside front tyre is gradually unloaded
Turns 05 and 06 constitute one of the most extreme examples of weight transfer in the entire F1 calendar. Confidence at the back end of the car is crucial there.
The exit of Turn 09 is tricky because it's very hard to put the power down, but the really difficult part is the very late apex into 11, that requires geometric precision...
Finally, Turn 12 really tests the downforce levels of a car, but you can actually lose or gain a lot of time braking and turning for 14. Turn 13 gradually becomes the tight 14, which means that you have to unload the car from the Gs of 13, brake and adopt a very wide line and a late apex to maximize the exit down the back straight.

Good example of that and Michael's superb saving:



#17724 MikeTekRacing

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Posted 21 March 2012 - 18:05

wow, how he handles the rear stepping out at 1m10 and under the next braking is awesome

#17725 Sakae

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Posted 21 March 2012 - 23:30

Oh... OK! :wave:

@Sakae: ......very difficult to say. Michael has good knowledge of the track. It's a circuit that requires confidence in your machinery in order to do well. Characteristic examples:

Posted Image

Turn 01 needs a car that is very stable under braking and doesn't lock the brakes as the inside front tyre is gradually unloaded
Turns 05 and 06 constitute one of the most extreme examples of weight transfer in the entire F1 calendar. Confidence at the back end of the car is crucial there.
The exit of Turn 09 is tricky because it's very hard to put the power down, but the really difficult part is the very late apex into 11, that requires geometric precision...
Finally, Turn 12 really tests the downforce levels of a car, but you can actually lose or gain a lot of time braking and turning for 14. Turn 13 gradually becomes the tight 14, which means that you have to unload the car from the Gs of 13, brake and adopt a very wide line and a late apex to maximize the exit down the back straight.

I mention all the above examples because they require absolute confidence in the car, and handling predictability. It's therefore very difficult to predict how Michael will fare. If the car goes well, and the tyres are properly switched on, then he should be in the hunt for the front row of the grid. If however, the car is off, even by a small bit, then this will have a huge effect on laptimes. Many suggest that Sepang is defined by its high-G corners, but the majority of the laptime can be lost or found in the low to med speed corners (01, 02, 04, 09, 11, 14 and 15). F1 cars spend a lot of time there...

How complex do you think race simulation software is? (Proprietary, written by a specialist within)?

#17726 Kubiccia

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 00:32

T12 has been flat out for many years now.

As for Schumi grid position, if he can limit the damage on S2, where Mercedes lacks downforce compared to Lotus, Mclaren, RBR, then Schumi will fight for pole if he repeats his Melbourne form, imo

#17727 cheapracer

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 03:11

If MS is smart, and we know he is, he'll do a Monza again - low downforce and stay in front on the 2 long straights.

#17728 libano

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 06:22

If MS is smart, and we know he is, he'll do a Monza again - low downforce and stay in front on the 2 long straights.


not smart at all. once it starts raining (very likely) you are screwed with such a setup. they don't have a straight line speed problem at all, i would use the excess speed to have more wing for faster laps.


#17729 abulafiaF1

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 07:02

How complex do you think race simulation software is? (Proprietary, written by a specialist within)?


Hmmmm.... The basic algorithms for calculating a race simulation are very standard, such as calculating pit stops time based on historic data, and use degradation vs decreasing fuel to predict laptime evolution, and of course adding all that together, having a provision for safety cars, etc, etc... I think that anybody can write such a program within a few minutes, either in VB or even in an Excel sheet. The tricky part, however, is I believe to have a software that can be fed with: (a) expected track / air temperatures (b) degradation patterns from previous races and testing sessions © fuel effect from previous races and testing sessions (d) track characteristics (friction coefficient, latteral Gs, etc) and (e) car setup characteristics (downforce levels and balance, mechanical setup, etc), so it can then predict the following: (a) lap times and (b) degradation evolution. Such software would be unique for each team, and it has one name: simulator.

#17730 zyphro

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 09:59

http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/98245

Right from the horses mouth.

"We understood in Melbourne that we have to do a better job with race pace. But we understood it and fixed it. It is a one-off."

#17731 libano

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 11:43

Some unintentional humour from today's press conference:

Q: Are you in touch, from time to time, with Eddie Irvine?
MS: No, not really. I see his sister ever so often and I see him maybe once a year and that's about it.

:)

#17732 Sakae

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 11:49

Hmmmm.... The basic algorithms for calculating a race simulation are very standard, such as calculating pit stops time based on historic data, and use degradation vs decreasing fuel to predict laptime evolution, and of course adding all that together, having a provision for safety cars, etc, etc... I think that anybody can write such a program within a few minutes, either in VB or even in an Excel sheet. The tricky part, however, is I believe to have a software that can be fed with: (a) expected track / air temperatures (b) degradation patterns from previous races and testing sessions © fuel effect from previous races and testing sessions (d) track characteristics (friction coefficient, latteral Gs, etc) and (e) car setup characteristics (downforce levels and balance, mechanical setup, etc), so it can then predict the following: (a) lap times and (b) degradation evolution. Such software would be unique for each team, and it has one name: simulator.

Thanks. Does that mean really that telemetry in real time is transmitted to home-base, and race strategy is developed as race progresses, or data acquisition is too slow, and at some point pit-wall must make a call on the spot? I do suspect that once you enter all variables, optimising the strategy continuously is beyond human capabilitity.

Edited by Sakae, 22 March 2012 - 11:51.


#17733 abulafiaF1

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 12:24

Thanks. Does that mean really that telemetry in real time is transmitted to home-base, and race strategy is developed as race progresses, or data acquisition is too slow, and at some point pit-wall must make a call on the spot? I do suspect that once you enter all variables, optimising the strategy continuously is beyond human capabilitity.


Yes, the majority of the real-time data analysis during a race takes place back in the factory, as the race progresses, and then this digested info is fed back to the on-track team who make the strategic decisions. However, I don't think there's a substitute for human intuition and thinking outside the box, so you often get calls that seem to defy logic - sometimes they work, sometimes they don't. In the old days things were more intuitive, more on-the-fly, if you prefer. Now it seems there are very little variations between strategies - the focus is to stretch the tyre's life and try to undercut the guy in front whilst making sure you don't come out behind traffic.

#17734 DutchCruijff

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 12:24

Q: Are you in touch, from time to time, with Eddie Irvine?
MS: No, not really. I see his sister every so often and I see him maybe once a year and that’s about it.


:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

#17735 ali.unal

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 14:13

http://www.dailymoti...io-feature_auto

At 13:00 - from Rosberg's engineer to Rosberg

"Be advised Michael's car failed because he had too much... he was downshifting with a lot of rear locking. We'll just keep you advised if we see that as a situation, OK? We're just carrying as you're doing normally but we'll keep you advised just to let you what the problem was and if start to see it, then we'll start to tell you"

Intriguing.

#17736 D.M.N.

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 17:42

Q: Are you in touch, from time to time, with Eddie Irvine?
MS: No, not really. I see his sister every so often and I see him maybe once a year and that’s about it.


:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

I'm glad I wasn't the only one that laughed at that. :lol: At least it said sister and not girlfriend though...

#17737 Octavian

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 18:31

not smart at all. once it starts raining (very likely) you are screwed with such a setup. they don't have a straight line speed problem at all, i would use the excess speed to have more wing for faster laps.


I'd say it was very smart. If they go with a higher downforce setting it will compromise qualifying performance. Better to qualify high and defend the position from the front than chase down the opposition in what will probably be a slower car.
As for the rain - I think driver skill overcomes small changes in downforce and we know the best drivers can drive superbly in the rain no matter the set up.

#17738 LiJu914

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 18:39

I'd say it was very smart. If they go with a higher downforce setting it will compromise qualifying performance. Better to qualify high and defend the position from the front than chase down the opposition in what will probably be a slower car.
As for the rain - I think driver skill overcomes small changes in downforce and we know the best drivers can drive superbly in the rain no matter the set up.


I remember (prime) Schumacher looking pretty hopeless compared to Coulthard in the rain-soaked race in Brazil (2001), because his car-setup wasn´t matching the conditions at all...






#17739 MikeTekRacing

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 18:45

drivers can't do magic. if the ride height is too low or the tyres suck they're not gods.
setup can affect a lot their performance

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#17740 weston

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 18:49

/OFF

Sonia Irvine is the founder of a nightclub that follows Formula 1 races all around the World. I can imagine Schumacher to be a diamond member.

Edited by weston, 24 March 2012 - 15:02.


#17741 KiloWatt

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Posted 23 March 2012 - 02:32

Oops, wrong thread.

Edited by KiloWatt, 23 March 2012 - 02:35.


#17742 Tarzaan

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Posted 23 March 2012 - 07:45

P4 is FP1, P2 in FP2. 0.361 from Ham

http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/98267

#17743 cheapracer

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Posted 23 March 2012 - 07:54

Based on Melbourne and today's practice sessions, MS is probably enjoying having more driver control over his car again and the ability to bring basic skills to the fore.



drivers can't do magic. if the ride height is too low or the tyres suck they're not gods.
setup can affect a lot their performance


Indeed, if you have a particularly hard setup and it rains you are in trouble - Jaques V suffered from that in a few races generally running harder setups than most drivers.



Sonia Irvine is the founder of a nightclub that follows Formula 1 races all around the World. I can image Schumacher to be a diamond member.


I heard she takes beer and cash as well.


#17744 Sof1

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Posted 24 March 2012 - 09:02

Yeaaah Michael, 3rd !! Cool!

#17745 Tarzaan

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Posted 24 March 2012 - 09:03

Damm, almost first row!

But he still beat Nico.

Tomorrow maybe he turn first in the first corner...

#17746 thrillercd

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Posted 24 March 2012 - 09:04

Great job :clap:

#17747 Augurk

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Posted 24 March 2012 - 09:04

First time a post-session press conference for him since his return? :smoking:

#17748 Urawa

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Posted 24 March 2012 - 09:04

sick with one shot :clap:
qualifying issues over?

#17749 exmayol

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Posted 24 March 2012 - 09:04

Great result! I hope MS can finish in top 5!

#17750 nateshan

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Posted 24 March 2012 - 09:05

Waiting to see Schumi in the press conference.............. After a long time :)