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#1751 iakhtar

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Posted 09 May 2010 - 20:40

It has crossed my mind too, but then I recalled JB's smirk on his face when he was asked if it is easy to overtake MS. MS made my day.


same here :)

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#1752 Mandzipop

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Posted 09 May 2010 - 21:11

That was a very good race from Michael. Didn't put a foot wrong. Maximised the opportunity with Button and performed an excellent display of defensive driving.

#1753 bond

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Posted 09 May 2010 - 21:31

MS: "I think the car is certainly more normal again"


Now that he's in front of nico the car is normal... :lol:

#1754 SchumiBoy

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Posted 09 May 2010 - 21:38

MS: "I think the car is certainly more normal again"


Now that he's in front of nico the car is normal... :lol:


Now that the car actually turns into the corners. Have you looked at the onboards and the difference in handling?

#1755 bond

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Posted 09 May 2010 - 21:40

Now that the car actually turns into the corners. Have you looked at the onboards and the difference in handling?


Yep, with nico on previous races the car couldn't turn at all...

#1756 fetzo

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Posted 09 May 2010 - 21:48

MICHAEL :clap: :clap: :clap:

#1757 Wretched

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Posted 09 May 2010 - 21:53

I thought Schuey drove well with the hardware he was given. JB was obviously faster but due to Schuey's brilliant defensive driving he was held back.
Hopefully Merc can now improve the power. Obviously the car is handling a little more to Schuey's liking, just needs a little more go.

#1758 MikeTekRacing

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Posted 09 May 2010 - 21:58

the mclaren was catching the mercedes faster than I can overtake on the highway, yet somehow jenson just didn't have what it takes to make it happen
i was pretty sure he was going to get by in a couple of laps, but that wasn't the case

#1759 Zdeus

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Posted 09 May 2010 - 22:06

MS: "I think the car is certainly more normal again"


Now that he's in front of nico the car is normal... :lol:


Now that the car is normal he's in front of Nico :)

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#1760 AndreasF1

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Posted 09 May 2010 - 22:52

One thing which probably helped him to be one gear higher was that Ferrari and Jordan were only teams to have seven-speed gearbox in 1997. Also that was very goot tactic by Michael - he had spare car set up for wet and decided 20 minutes before the start to go with that.



yes that makes sense. This would explain why Irvine never managed to shift higher than 5th because he probably had a dry set up. As for the others Schumacher didn't leave anybody with a chance.

#1761 nateshan

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Posted 10 May 2010 - 00:07

schumi cant be happy anyway, the car is clearly slower, especially on the straight so youll never pass anyone.


Yeah, Michael did a good job. The straight line speed should not be a concern this season (i hope) as the F-Duct will be introduced in turkey.

#1762 black magic

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Posted 10 May 2010 - 00:55

clearly michael not needing to fight the car as much

before I shout from the roof tops though I would be wondering whether this was an improved effort by michael or for some reason a really poor performance by nico given the distance between mercedes and redbull, mclaren, ferrari which if anything appears to have grown rather than shrunk

button has no argument and delighted with michaels pass as if anything he had been too conservative with button on the first corner in almost exact role reversal

#1763 Madras

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Posted 10 May 2010 - 06:22

Schu held Button off well, he looked like a total professional.

#1764 Anssi

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Posted 10 May 2010 - 06:53

Schu held Button off well, he looked like a total professional.



Yeah. It's quite sad Button felt the need to complain about the overtaking manoeuvre Michael pulled on him. As far as I can see that was OK and exactly the kind of stuff I want to see in F1. Michael must be smiling about the comment Jenson made about it. I can agree that Michael has crossed the line of what is acceptable several times earlier in his career but that move was fine - Jenson needs to make sure he is talking of that move and not of what Michael did in the past.

#1765 ivand911

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Posted 10 May 2010 - 08:31

Two posts from planet-f1 forum by abulafia:

"Schumacher is, arguably, the only example of a F1 driver in history, who was present during three very distinct eras of racing cars. At the beginning of his career, he had to race cars with no electronic aids, manual gearboxes and fat slicks, which gave emphasis to the physical aspect of driving a car as much as they did to the technical one. F1 then gradually moved towards grooved tyres and paddle shifts, with the emphasis being switched to the aero development. The cars started to become much better designed and engineered - I would say that the 1998 generation of cars marked a significant departure from the past, both in terms of performance but also of handling characteristics of the cars. However, it was 2001 when even bigger changes started to become implemented, with the adoption of TC (from the Barcelona GP onwards) and later on with all sorts of electronics controling not only the operation of the vehicle but also its handling, such as stability control, differential mapping, engine braking assistance, etc... The apotheosis of these cars was the 2006 crop, just before Michelin left the sport (in 07) and the tyre race stopped. The speeds that the 2006 cars could carry into the corners were silly.

You will find that as the years progressed, the role of the driver became less and less important. Schumacher was never outqualified by a team-mate (at a time when low fuel quali was used, so direct comparisons were allowed) from 1992 to 1995 (Belgian GP). That's almost 4 full seasons. Even in 1995, at the Belgian GP, he was caught out by the rain, with Herbert already having set a time in the dry. Order was restored at the next race and he remained unbeaten until the end of the season. Back then, Schumacher would outqualify his team-mates to (sometimes) the rate of 1.5 - 2.0 seconds per lap on average, during the entire season. When he moved to Ferrari, his dominance continued, albeit with lesser margins (his advantage over Irvine was around 0.7 - 0.8 seconds on average). When he was teamed up with Barrichello, at first he completely destroyed him (2000) season, but as the cars became more and more electronically controled, his huge advantages begun to diminish, although he always comfortably had the upper hand. Funnily enough, he enjoyed a 0.6 seconds advantage on average over Massa in 2006 (his final year), which is difficult to fathom since the cars were so easy to drive at the limit and he was already 38 years old, tired and less motivated. That kind of margin was seriously big, by any yardstick, in modern F1.

Tales of Schumacher's epic drives (especially in the 90s) abound, and those who have been lucky enough to watch some of them will know what I am talking about. In Monaco 1997 (wet, no traction control, etc) he built a 6 secs gap to 2nd in the first lap, then 12 secs in the 2nd lap and 18 secs in the 3rd lap. At Spa 1998, his best lap time was some 8 seconds better than the McLarens and he was about to lap Coulthard at approximately the mid point of the race when that famous accident happened. At Barcelona 94 he did the entire (almost) race stuck in 5th gear (6 speed gearboxes), including 2 pit stops, and finished 2nd. Etc, etc, etc... But as the years rolled by, the cars became more and more driver-friendly, and other drivers were able to rely on all the electronic aids and fantastic engineering to bring the gap down to non-humiliating levels.

What has always fascinated me is that Schumacher has been mighty during this entire period, which spanned 17 years. He pushed the boundaries of what is possible in a F1 car throughout his entire career which, as I said, can be broken down in 3 parts: 91 - 97, 98 - 01, 02 - 06. He has been a driver who performed at the highest level in all sorts of machinery. He could cope with the physical demands of the early 90s cars and he could also understand the complex electronics and engineering of a 2006 machine.

A big part of that success was, of course, due to his mental abilities and his analytical skills, his methodical and tireless dedication and his unparalleled drive to compete and succeed. But an equally large chunk of this success was due to his ability to adapt in different cars, different regulations and different conditions. You don't have to examine his entire career to see that - just watch any race with changeable conditions and you will know what I am talking about. Whenever the level of grips started to change and a change in driving style was called for, Schumacher would always be the first to adapt, finding grip where others couldn't even think of.

As you understand, it's a much more complex thing that oversteer, understeer, or whatever. It's not productive to think in those terms, because that's an over simplification of things and it leads to wrong conclusions. Schumacher was always trying to optimize the performance (his own and his car's) through exhaustive analysis of the tiniest details, where most other drivers were simply trying to drive as fast as possible.

Going back to the Barcelona 94, for example, Schumacher had to do the entire race in 5th gear, which means he was hitting the limiter at the straights and was slow out of the corners. To compensate he had to drive the way a heavy sportscar should be driven, i.e. carry as much speed into the corner and adopt wider lines which increased the travelled distance but also the speed you could carry in and out of the corner. It took him about 2 laps to settle into a rhythm and his best laps (after the gearbox was stuck) were comperable to the best laps of the rest of the field. The scary bit was that no one had realized it, and when he mentioned it at the press conference it was met with general incredulity. The Benetton team had to disclose the telemetry to convince the press...

That's why I believe this whole oversteer - understeer is a pointless exercise. Schumi was good in utilizing both, whenever the situation called for it, and went way beyond that. So, yes, as the years changed and the handling characteristics of the cars changed (dramatically so), so did his "style" change to best take advantage of them. But, going back to my earlier posts, the geometry of his driving - his "understanding" of how the car needs to be positioned at all times in a corner, has not changed, because that's something that comes naturally and instinctively.

Anyway, I think I went off into a bit of jabbering here, and I don't know if I went close to answering your question or not. If I didn't, blame it on the over excitement!"

"@ Clean air: Nothing as drastic as that.

People have been going on about understeer / oversteer because that's the only thing they can compute. You shouldn't expect Schumacher or anybody from the Mercedes camp to tell you exactly what was going on, and you definitely shouldn't expect the "experts" to analyze his problems, because they can't.

The truth is, as always, a bit more complex than that.

Assuming that in China he did suffer from a rogue chassis, or a damaged one, his problems were not in the corner entries (i.e. understeer, or oversteer), but in corner exits, i.e. traction. But before China he was catching up and, at least in Australia, he was matching Rosberg in terms of outright pace. In fact, he was faster than Rosberg but this didn't translate into a result because in quali he was balked and then in the race he got his wing taken off by Button.

But he's not yet at his absolute best, and this has to do with the way the car feels. His main "problem" that he has to overcome is three-fold.

Part A of the problem: For 11 years he raced with Ferrari and that was his only viable reference point. Any driver that spends so long with a team builds a comfort zone inside which he operates. Schumi was at his absolute best up until 2002, because he was pushing the envelope of performance and he was maximizing every single parameter at his disposal. After that, he was still winning races and championships, but he was doing that inside this comfort zone. The car was gradually tuned to his unique preferences. The entire team was working for him, so much so that he found the energy and drive to nurture Massa's talent and mentor him as a possible replacement. Now, he's having to learn how to operate in a completely different environment. A 1996 MS or a 2002 MS would have been right on the money from the word go. But a 2010 MS, who has been driving for one team over 11 years and has been out of the sport for 3 years needs an adaptation period. He needs to forget what he has learnt at Ferrari, basically.

Part B of the problem: This brings us nicely to Part B, which is that he's too analytical. His main drive has always been (and always will be) to develop the car and maximize the feedback that he's giving to the engineers. He gets immense pleasure from developping the car and working with new technologies and solutions. This is what he did during winter testing, when instead he and the team should have been focusing in maximizing his feel for the car, i.e. his own potential. I was honestly stunned to see them not testing in rainy days - I thought this was a glorious opportunity to bring MS back up to speed, but they missed that.

Part C of the problem: He's been out of it for far too long. 3 years is a long time to be away. You have seen drivers like Badoer, who were still testing for the team, get a race seat and be 2 seconds of the pace. You have seen great drivers, like Fisichella, switching teams (from FI to Ferrari) and being hopelessly slow. You have seen young chargers with GP2 wins get into F1 and get destroyed in the process (Piquet, Grosjean, etc). It's the nature of the beast.

Schumacher though, although he's 41 years old, although he's been our of the sport for 3 years (and in the meantime the regs have changed so dramatically - no TC, no downshifting management, slick tyres, narrow front tyres, less downforce, no refuelling, etc) has done a stunning job of adapting to all that, including a new team! If anything, he has taken the fight to Rosberg who is indeed a stellar young driver, and he has held his corner magnificently, with the exception of China which is probably a one-off. Personally, I am stunned with his performances, especially today.

So, all in all, don't buy into over-simplified arguments of oversteer / understeer, etc. Yes, the updates seem to work for him, but he was faster than Rosberg in Australia as well, although it didn't show. Michael is a very shrewd operator, and I know what he's telling the team right now in the debrief: forget 2010 guys, let's focus on 11. He will be his usual glorious self in Monaco, but don't expect anything other than gritty, determined performances like today's when he punched above the car's potential finishing ahead of a Ferrari and a McLaren. If that's not adapting to new environments, I don't know what is..."

http://forum.planet-...g...p;&start=40



#1766 Massa_f1

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Posted 10 May 2010 - 09:02

Two posts from planet-f1 forum by abulafia:

"Schumacher is, arguably, the only example of a F1 driver in history, who was present during three very distinct eras of racing cars. At the beginning of his career, he had to race cars with no electronic aids, manual gearboxes and fat slicks, which gave emphasis to the physical aspect of driving a car as much as they did to the technical one. F1 then gradually moved towards grooved tyres and paddle shifts, with the emphasis being switched to the aero development. The cars started to become much better designed and engineered - I would say that the 1998 generation of cars marked a significant departure from the past, both in terms of performance but also of handling characteristics of the cars. However, it was 2001 when even bigger changes started to become implemented, with the adoption of TC (from the Barcelona GP onwards) and later on with all sorts of electronics controling not only the operation of the vehicle but also its handling, such as stability control, differential mapping, engine braking assistance, etc... The apotheosis of these cars was the 2006 crop, just before Michelin left the sport (in 07) and the tyre race stopped. The speeds that the 2006 cars could carry into the corners were silly.

You will find that as the years progressed, the role of the driver became less and less important. Schumacher was never outqualified by a team-mate (at a time when low fuel quali was used, so direct comparisons were allowed) from 1992 to 1995 (Belgian GP). That's almost 4 full seasons. Even in 1995, at the Belgian GP, he was caught out by the rain, with Herbert already having set a time in the dry. Order was restored at the next race and he remained unbeaten until the end of the season. Back then, Schumacher would outqualify his team-mates to (sometimes) the rate of 1.5 - 2.0 seconds per lap on average, during the entire season. When he moved to Ferrari, his dominance continued, albeit with lesser margins (his advantage over Irvine was around 0.7 - 0.8 seconds on average). When he was teamed up with Barrichello, at first he completely destroyed him (2000) season, but as the cars became more and more electronically controled, his huge advantages begun to diminish, although he always comfortably had the upper hand. Funnily enough, he enjoyed a 0.6 seconds advantage on average over Massa in 2006 (his final year), which is difficult to fathom since the cars were so easy to drive at the limit and he was already 38 years old, tired and less motivated. That kind of margin was seriously big, by any yardstick, in modern F1.

Tales of Schumacher's epic drives (especially in the 90s) abound, and those who have been lucky enough to watch some of them will know what I am talking about. In Monaco 1997 (wet, no traction control, etc) he built a 6 secs gap to 2nd in the first lap, then 12 secs in the 2nd lap and 18 secs in the 3rd lap. At Spa 1998, his best lap time was some 8 seconds better than the McLarens and he was about to lap Coulthard at approximately the mid point of the race when that famous accident happened. At Barcelona 94 he did the entire (almost) race stuck in 5th gear (6 speed gearboxes), including 2 pit stops, and finished 2nd. Etc, etc, etc... But as the years rolled by, the cars became more and more driver-friendly, and other drivers were able to rely on all the electronic aids and fantastic engineering to bring the gap down to non-humiliating levels.

What has always fascinated me is that Schumacher has been mighty during this entire period, which spanned 17 years. He pushed the boundaries of what is possible in a F1 car throughout his entire career which, as I said, can be broken down in 3 parts: 91 - 97, 98 - 01, 02 - 06. He has been a driver who performed at the highest level in all sorts of machinery. He could cope with the physical demands of the early 90s cars and he could also understand the complex electronics and engineering of a 2006 machine.

A big part of that success was, of course, due to his mental abilities and his analytical skills, his methodical and tireless dedication and his unparalleled drive to compete and succeed. But an equally large chunk of this success was due to his ability to adapt in different cars, different regulations and different conditions. You don't have to examine his entire career to see that - just watch any race with changeable conditions and you will know what I am talking about. Whenever the level of grips started to change and a change in driving style was called for, Schumacher would always be the first to adapt, finding grip where others couldn't even think of.

As you understand, it's a much more complex thing that oversteer, understeer, or whatever. It's not productive to think in those terms, because that's an over simplification of things and it leads to wrong conclusions. Schumacher was always trying to optimize the performance (his own and his car's) through exhaustive analysis of the tiniest details, where most other drivers were simply trying to drive as fast as possible.

Going back to the Barcelona 94, for example, Schumacher had to do the entire race in 5th gear, which means he was hitting the limiter at the straights and was slow out of the corners. To compensate he had to drive the way a heavy sportscar should be driven, i.e. carry as much speed into the corner and adopt wider lines which increased the travelled distance but also the speed you could carry in and out of the corner. It took him about 2 laps to settle into a rhythm and his best laps (after the gearbox was stuck) were comperable to the best laps of the rest of the field. The scary bit was that no one had realized it, and when he mentioned it at the press conference it was met with general incredulity. The Benetton team had to disclose the telemetry to convince the press...

That's why I believe this whole oversteer - understeer is a pointless exercise. Schumi was good in utilizing both, whenever the situation called for it, and went way beyond that. So, yes, as the years changed and the handling characteristics of the cars changed (dramatically so), so did his "style" change to best take advantage of them. But, going back to my earlier posts, the geometry of his driving - his "understanding" of how the car needs to be positioned at all times in a corner, has not changed, because that's something that comes naturally and instinctively.

Anyway, I think I went off into a bit of jabbering here, and I don't know if I went close to answering your question or not. If I didn't, blame it on the over excitement!"

"@ Clean air: Nothing as drastic as that.

People have been going on about understeer / oversteer because that's the only thing they can compute. You shouldn't expect Schumacher or anybody from the Mercedes camp to tell you exactly what was going on, and you definitely shouldn't expect the "experts" to analyze his problems, because they can't.

The truth is, as always, a bit more complex than that.

Assuming that in China he did suffer from a rogue chassis, or a damaged one, his problems were not in the corner entries (i.e. understeer, or oversteer), but in corner exits, i.e. traction. But before China he was catching up and, at least in Australia, he was matching Rosberg in terms of outright pace. In fact, he was faster than Rosberg but this didn't translate into a result because in quali he was balked and then in the race he got his wing taken off by Button.

But he's not yet at his absolute best, and this has to do with the way the car feels. His main "problem" that he has to overcome is three-fold.

Part A of the problem: For 11 years he raced with Ferrari and that was his only viable reference point. Any driver that spends so long with a team builds a comfort zone inside which he operates. Schumi was at his absolute best up until 2002, because he was pushing the envelope of performance and he was maximizing every single parameter at his disposal. After that, he was still winning races and championships, but he was doing that inside this comfort zone. The car was gradually tuned to his unique preferences. The entire team was working for him, so much so that he found the energy and drive to nurture Massa's talent and mentor him as a possible replacement. Now, he's having to learn how to operate in a completely different environment. A 1996 MS or a 2002 MS would have been right on the money from the word go. But a 2010 MS, who has been driving for one team over 11 years and has been out of the sport for 3 years needs an adaptation period. He needs to forget what he has learnt at Ferrari, basically.

Part B of the problem: This brings us nicely to Part B, which is that he's too analytical. His main drive has always been (and always will be) to develop the car and maximize the feedback that he's giving to the engineers. He gets immense pleasure from developping the car and working with new technologies and solutions. This is what he did during winter testing, when instead he and the team should have been focusing in maximizing his feel for the car, i.e. his own potential. I was honestly stunned to see them not testing in rainy days - I thought this was a glorious opportunity to bring MS back up to speed, but they missed that.

Part C of the problem: He's been out of it for far too long. 3 years is a long time to be away. You have seen drivers like Badoer, who were still testing for the team, get a race seat and be 2 seconds of the pace. You have seen great drivers, like Fisichella, switching teams (from FI to Ferrari) and being hopelessly slow. You have seen young chargers with GP2 wins get into F1 and get destroyed in the process (Piquet, Grosjean, etc). It's the nature of the beast.

Schumacher though, although he's 41 years old, although he's been our of the sport for 3 years (and in the meantime the regs have changed so dramatically - no TC, no downshifting management, slick tyres, narrow front tyres, less downforce, no refuelling, etc) has done a stunning job of adapting to all that, including a new team! If anything, he has taken the fight to Rosberg who is indeed a stellar young driver, and he has held his corner magnificently, with the exception of China which is probably a one-off. Personally, I am stunned with his performances, especially today.

So, all in all, don't buy into over-simplified arguments of oversteer / understeer, etc. Yes, the updates seem to work for him, but he was faster than Rosberg in Australia as well, although it didn't show. Michael is a very shrewd operator, and I know what he's telling the team right now in the debrief: forget 2010 guys, let's focus on 11. He will be his usual glorious self in Monaco, but don't expect anything other than gritty, determined performances like today's when he punched above the car's potential finishing ahead of a Ferrari and a McLaren. If that's not adapting to new environments, I don't know what is..."

http://forum.planet-...g...p;&start=40



Yes people seem to forget that he was 4th before he got punted in the side and damaged his wing. Ever since then his car was not right until they changed it for Spain. He would of had a good race in OZ had that not of happned. His out performing Nico this race had nothing to do with updates.

#1767 hansmann

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Posted 10 May 2010 - 14:42

Solid performance by Michael today, didn't look to me like he could have gone any faster , but looked so much better in the turns.

Without repeating the well know arguments, I think, all things considered, he's actually doing an excellent job.


#1768 Szoelloe

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Posted 10 May 2010 - 15:53

@Ivand911: mate, thx for that quote. Seems a bloody good analysis, don't know who this guy is, but thumbs up to him, not for the good words, but the focused content. :)


fixed it. should have read back further. SO, thx Ivan.

Edited by Szoelloe, 10 May 2010 - 15:55.


#1769 Jomyboy

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Posted 11 May 2010 - 05:59

Two posts from planet-f1 forum by abulafia:

"Schumacher is, arguably, the only example of a F1 driver in history, who was present during three very distinct eras of racing cars. At the beginning of his career, he had to race cars with no electronic aids, manual gearboxes and fat slicks, which gave emphasis to the physical aspect of driving a car as much as they did to the technical one. F1 then gradually moved towards grooved tyres and paddle shifts, with the emphasis being switched to the aero development. The cars started to become much better designed and engineered - I would say that the 1998 generation of cars marked a significant departure from the past, both in terms of performance but also of handling characteristics of the cars. However, it was 2001 when even bigger changes started to become implemented, with the adoption of TC (from the Barcelona GP onwards) and later on with all sorts of electronics controling not only the operation of the vehicle but also its handling, such as stability control, differential mapping, engine braking assistance, etc... The apotheosis of these cars was the 2006 crop, just before Michelin left the sport (in 07) and the tyre race stopped. The speeds that the 2006 cars could carry into the corners were silly.

You will find that as the years progressed, the role of the driver became less and less important. Schumacher was never outqualified by a team-mate (at a time when low fuel quali was used, so direct comparisons were allowed) from 1992 to 1995 (Belgian GP). That's almost 4 full seasons. Even in 1995, at the Belgian GP, he was caught out by the rain, with Herbert already having set a time in the dry. Order was restored at the next race and he remained unbeaten until the end of the season. Back then, Schumacher would outqualify his team-mates to (sometimes) the rate of 1.5 - 2.0 seconds per lap on average, during the entire season. When he moved to Ferrari, his dominance continued, albeit with lesser margins (his advantage over Irvine was around 0.7 - 0.8 seconds on average). When he was teamed up with Barrichello, at first he completely destroyed him (2000) season, but as the cars became more and more electronically controled, his huge advantages begun to diminish, although he always comfortably had the upper hand. Funnily enough, he enjoyed a 0.6 seconds advantage on average over Massa in 2006 (his final year), which is difficult to fathom since the cars were so easy to drive at the limit and he was already 38 years old, tired and less motivated. That kind of margin was seriously big, by any yardstick, in modern F1.

Tales of Schumacher's epic drives (especially in the 90s) abound, and those who have been lucky enough to watch some of them will know what I am talking about. In Monaco 1997 (wet, no traction control, etc) he built a 6 secs gap to 2nd in the first lap, then 12 secs in the 2nd lap and 18 secs in the 3rd lap. At Spa 1998, his best lap time was some 8 seconds better than the McLarens and he was about to lap Coulthard at approximately the mid point of the race when that famous accident happened. At Barcelona 94 he did the entire (almost) race stuck in 5th gear (6 speed gearboxes), including 2 pit stops, and finished 2nd. Etc, etc, etc... But as the years rolled by, the cars became more and more driver-friendly, and other drivers were able to rely on all the electronic aids and fantastic engineering to bring the gap down to non-humiliating levels.

What has always fascinated me is that Schumacher has been mighty during this entire period, which spanned 17 years. He pushed the boundaries of what is possible in a F1 car throughout his entire career which, as I said, can be broken down in 3 parts: 91 - 97, 98 - 01, 02 - 06. He has been a driver who performed at the highest level in all sorts of machinery. He could cope with the physical demands of the early 90s cars and he could also understand the complex electronics and engineering of a 2006 machine.

A big part of that success was, of course, due to his mental abilities and his analytical skills, his methodical and tireless dedication and his unparalleled drive to compete and succeed. But an equally large chunk of this success was due to his ability to adapt in different cars, different regulations and different conditions. You don't have to examine his entire career to see that - just watch any race with changeable conditions and you will know what I am talking about. Whenever the level of grips started to change and a change in driving style was called for, Schumacher would always be the first to adapt, finding grip where others couldn't even think of.

As you understand, it's a much more complex thing that oversteer, understeer, or whatever. It's not productive to think in those terms, because that's an over simplification of things and it leads to wrong conclusions. Schumacher was always trying to optimize the performance (his own and his car's) through exhaustive analysis of the tiniest details, where most other drivers were simply trying to drive as fast as possible.

Going back to the Barcelona 94, for example, Schumacher had to do the entire race in 5th gear, which means he was hitting the limiter at the straights and was slow out of the corners. To compensate he had to drive the way a heavy sportscar should be driven, i.e. carry as much speed into the corner and adopt wider lines which increased the travelled distance but also the speed you could carry in and out of the corner. It took him about 2 laps to settle into a rhythm and his best laps (after the gearbox was stuck) were comperable to the best laps of the rest of the field. The scary bit was that no one had realized it, and when he mentioned it at the press conference it was met with general incredulity. The Benetton team had to disclose the telemetry to convince the press...

That's why I believe this whole oversteer - understeer is a pointless exercise. Schumi was good in utilizing both, whenever the situation called for it, and went way beyond that. So, yes, as the years changed and the handling characteristics of the cars changed (dramatically so), so did his "style" change to best take advantage of them. But, going back to my earlier posts, the geometry of his driving - his "understanding" of how the car needs to be positioned at all times in a corner, has not changed, because that's something that comes naturally and instinctively.

Anyway, I think I went off into a bit of jabbering here, and I don't know if I went close to answering your question or not. If I didn't, blame it on the over excitement!"

"@ Clean air: Nothing as drastic as that.

People have been going on about understeer / oversteer because that's the only thing they can compute. You shouldn't expect Schumacher or anybody from the Mercedes camp to tell you exactly what was going on, and you definitely shouldn't expect the "experts" to analyze his problems, because they can't.

The truth is, as always, a bit more complex than that.

Assuming that in China he did suffer from a rogue chassis, or a damaged one, his problems were not in the corner entries (i.e. understeer, or oversteer), but in corner exits, i.e. traction. But before China he was catching up and, at least in Australia, he was matching Rosberg in terms of outright pace. In fact, he was faster than Rosberg but this didn't translate into a result because in quali he was balked and then in the race he got his wing taken off by Button.

But he's not yet at his absolute best, and this has to do with the way the car feels. His main "problem" that he has to overcome is three-fold.

Part A of the problem: For 11 years he raced with Ferrari and that was his only viable reference point. Any driver that spends so long with a team builds a comfort zone inside which he operates. Schumi was at his absolute best up until 2002, because he was pushing the envelope of performance and he was maximizing every single parameter at his disposal. After that, he was still winning races and championships, but he was doing that inside this comfort zone. The car was gradually tuned to his unique preferences. The entire team was working for him, so much so that he found the energy and drive to nurture Massa's talent and mentor him as a possible replacement. Now, he's having to learn how to operate in a completely different environment. A 1996 MS or a 2002 MS would have been right on the money from the word go. But a 2010 MS, who has been driving for one team over 11 years and has been out of the sport for 3 years needs an adaptation period. He needs to forget what he has learnt at Ferrari, basically.

Part B of the problem: This brings us nicely to Part B, which is that he's too analytical. His main drive has always been (and always will be) to develop the car and maximize the feedback that he's giving to the engineers. He gets immense pleasure from developping the car and working with new technologies and solutions. This is what he did during winter testing, when instead he and the team should have been focusing in maximizing his feel for the car, i.e. his own potential. I was honestly stunned to see them not testing in rainy days - I thought this was a glorious opportunity to bring MS back up to speed, but they missed that.

Part C of the problem: He's been out of it for far too long. 3 years is a long time to be away. You have seen drivers like Badoer, who were still testing for the team, get a race seat and be 2 seconds of the pace. You have seen great drivers, like Fisichella, switching teams (from FI to Ferrari) and being hopelessly slow. You have seen young chargers with GP2 wins get into F1 and get destroyed in the process (Piquet, Grosjean, etc). It's the nature of the beast.

Schumacher though, although he's 41 years old, although he's been our of the sport for 3 years (and in the meantime the regs have changed so dramatically - no TC, no downshifting management, slick tyres, narrow front tyres, less downforce, no refuelling, etc) has done a stunning job of adapting to all that, including a new team! If anything, he has taken the fight to Rosberg who is indeed a stellar young driver, and he has held his corner magnificently, with the exception of China which is probably a one-off. Personally, I am stunned with his performances, especially today.

So, all in all, don't buy into over-simplified arguments of oversteer / understeer, etc. Yes, the updates seem to work for him, but he was faster than Rosberg in Australia as well, although it didn't show. Michael is a very shrewd operator, and I know what he's telling the team right now in the debrief: forget 2010 guys, let's focus on 11. He will be his usual glorious self in Monaco, but don't expect anything other than gritty, determined performances like today's when he punched above the car's potential finishing ahead of a Ferrari and a McLaren. If that's not adapting to new environments, I don't know what is..."

http://forum.planet-...g...p;&start=40



Thank you so much for putting it up on this forum. It beats all the experts and analysers to shame. One of the best bits to have ever come out of the forums in a long long while. Two thumbs up mate!

#1770 Cr0aker

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Posted 11 May 2010 - 07:09

Great race! This is the Schumacher I love. He grabbed that car by the scruff of the neck and wrung every ounce of performance out of it. This is why he has seven WDC’s. If the race had lasted another five laps he would have been on the podium. Vettel’s brakes would have gone or he would have been going so slow he’d have been caught up.

#1771 Desmonaut

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Posted 11 May 2010 - 12:57

Thank you so much for putting it up on this forum. It beats all the experts and analysers to shame. One of the best bits to have ever come out of the forums in a long long while. Two thumbs up mate!


Absolutely. Really good insight from the original poster.

I wasn't a fan of Schumi in the past (I follow the Iceman wherever he goes) but this year I am dying to see him teach the young guns a few lessons. Button got some in Spain, Hamilton got some in China. Go Schumi.

Edited by Desmonaut, 11 May 2010 - 12:58.


#1772 aditya-now

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Posted 11 May 2010 - 14:15

Forget about Trulli train, Schumacher train is in town!


It's funny that you'd say that, but indeed, a look at the classification sheet confirms that observation.


#1773 Szoelloe

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Posted 11 May 2010 - 14:18

no shit, Sherlock...

#1774 aditya-now

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Posted 11 May 2010 - 14:23

no shit, Sherlock...


It's a pity that giacomo is not posting currently, his power of accurate observation was far superior to mine. I am just stating the obvious. :lol:


#1775 Henrytheeigth

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Posted 11 May 2010 - 14:28

Hmm MS is doing well currently, maybe if he continues to improve, he may get a drive with a top car, maybe he even may get into a Ferrari if he's lucky! :lol:

#1776 Szoelloe

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Posted 11 May 2010 - 14:32

It's a pity that giacomo is not posting currently, his power of accurate observation was far superior to mine. I am just stating the obvious. :lol:



ROTFL. that is exactly what that means sherlock.

#1777 Jackmancer

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Posted 11 May 2010 - 14:32

Hmm MS is doing well currently, maybe if he continues to improve, he may get a drive with a top car, maybe he even may get into a Ferrari if he's lucky! :lol:


Yeah a fourth Ferrari cause the third is going to Rossi :rotfl:

#1778 aditya-now

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Posted 11 May 2010 - 14:46

Hmm MS is doing well currently, maybe if he continues to improve, he may get a drive with a top car, maybe he even may get into a Ferrari if he's lucky! :lol:


That sounds great, Massa is being put into doubt at Ferrari anyways, and Lopez plans to build Renault GP further around Kubica.

Except for James Allen, who thinks that Mark Webber could join the Scuderia in 2011, I´d say exit Felipe and enter Michael for one last, glorious time. Schumacher-Alonso would be the all-star team of all times, well, maybe on a par with Prost-Senna and ahead of Clark-Hill. :up:

#1779 Henrytheeigth

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Posted 11 May 2010 - 15:36

Sounds great to me mate! :D

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#1780 BRK

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Posted 12 May 2010 - 00:27

I'd rather Schumacher stayed on at Mercedes than be partnered with an overrated driver who's character flaws have helped bring down two perfectly normal F1 teams in the past. Some career,that. Ferrari's a ticking time bomb,I wish even Felipe got the hell out of there soon. Better a thousand Rosbergs than one Teflonso.

All well and good having bedroom fantasies but let's stick to reality and real-life in here,for a change.

#1781 ivand911

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Posted 12 May 2010 - 13:33

I want to post here again some posts from this thread:
http://forum.planet-...g...mp;&start=0
Recommended to everyone who is a Schumacher fan or F1 fan. There is a lot of analysis about driving style, tyres and else. I want to put here some of the best posts. There are made by fans and this make them exceptional. Thread like this is rare. :)

Post by kai:

"Hello there abu. Your posts on this matter were so stunning that I simply had to log in and add to the discussion with you. There is a lot to wade through, so I might split this into sections.

Schumacher’s style/preference

I think you have hit the nail on the head (unsurprisingly) with respect to the Schumacher understeer vs oversteer style argument. IMO what has always made a judgement on his style difficult is the fact that he was so adaptable to the car and thus could be impressive in an enormous array of machinery. His ultimate ‘style’ was, as you say, to balance the brake and the throttle through the apex of the corner in the spectacular “four wheel slide” (which ironically wasn’t a slide at all), but if the car was incapable of doing that or if that wasn’t the most efficient way of getting that particular car around the track, he would adjust his behaviour to make everything work as well as possible for that particular car. Crucially, it wasn’t essential for him to take that approach to do a good job in the car, which is where I think the confusion comes in.

This leads me to what I am particularly interested in getting your thoughts on, which is something I have long pondered. I think we are in reasonable agreement that over Schumacher’s tenure at Ferrari, the cars developed more and more in line with what is his preference for machinery: a neutral car that tends towards understeer. I think we can safely assume that a large part of this evolution was due to the fact that this was his preference, whether you take the perspective that he actively encouraged it in developmental sessions or requested that Ferrari get Brawn and Byrne initially because he was aware that this was their approach. There are two ways of looking at what this means. Is it that Schumacher found it most comfortable for him to drive a car like that OR that he simply recognized that this was simply the most efficient and effective car to drive? Put it another way: was his preference personal, or was it a calculated and analysed understanding of what would work best? This is a distinction that I have never been able to properly resolve in my own mind.

Even if you look at the period he was at Ferrari, it is difficult to come up with a conclusion. During the period with Irvine – which is IMO the most instructional given the significant evolution of car – we can see that the gap between the two of them in 1996 was enormous and came down somewhat as the car slowly edged towards the preferred style. Clearly both drivers were more comfortable in the car, but at the same time a gap remained, which could have been due to Schumacher’s superior capability or a combination of that and the fact that the car suited him more. It is easy to conclude it was a personal preference, but I don’t honestly think it is that simple.

An example to support why I think such a judgement is difficult. In 2006 at the French GP, it was determined after all the Friday sessions that one Bridgestone tyre was the best and, in fact, only realistic option for good performance; however, this tyre was not good enough to enable Ferrari to match the best Michelin tyre on the Renault. Schumacher, however, was of the belief that the other Bridgestone tyre could actually be made to perform better if he adapted his driving approach. Every other Bridgestone runner chose the preferred tyre; Schumacher went with his approach and won the race over what was accepted a better Renault-Michelin combination. At the time his victory was considered extremely impressive, even more so when it emerged afterward that he was using the less ‘optimal’ tyre and had effectively taken a ‘chance’ on that without evidence to support its potential superiority. (There was an analysis about the fact that his ability to do this came from the fact that as a child he had had to use other drivers’ discarded tyres because he couldn’t afford new ones and so had a very keen ‘tyre-analysis’ ability.)

His return

I agree with you about how Schumacher is, but my perception of it is different. Rather than pumped up, I think he is excited and the distinction I see between him throughout the rest of his career and now is how ‘at ease’ he appears. I always believed that the greatest weakness Schumacher had was his mentality – that he felt burdened by ‘having’ to do something – whether it was win his first world title or win Ferrari’s first in 21 years or give Ferrari a final one before his departure. Perhaps that is best explained by the ‘circle of fear’ the five collaborators at Ferrari (Todt, Brawn, Byrne, Schumacher and Martinelli) existed within – the concept that they couldn’t let each other down. Indeed I have often reflected that it is staggering that he kept going for as long as he did given the pressure he placed upon himself. But I think this was the weakness in his game plan. I think it led to incidents like Monaco ’06 and Jerez ’97, but even more than that I think it was what led to a lot of the ‘driving’ mistakes – like sliding off at Monaco in 96 when there would have been a chance of the win after his pole position, but an opportunity he felt lost when Hill passed him at the start; what resulted in his stupid decision to defend against de la Rosa in Hungary 06; what caused his crash over the bump in Australia in 06. There were times when his patience and composure was incredible – such as Suzuka ’00 or Indy ’03 when the conditions changed initially and the Michelins had the advantage – but there were also times when, when a lot was at stake, he lost his judgement. Now, I’m not excusing any of what he did – these were his responsibility; merely I am connecting it to where it came from.

I have often mused about just what we would have seen had he not had this ‘weakness’. And I honestly struggle to see where he would have had any deficiencies. I am not, of course, suggesting that he would have won every race, but there was no discernible weakness in his driving itself that I can establish and he was, as you have beautifully explained, actually a remarkable driver and racer. For starters, I think it is plausible it was behind his stall on the grid at Suzuka ’98; if indeed it was, he likely would have won that WDC otherwise. For another, it was behind enough in ’06 that he probably would have won that despite the engine failure. I’m not saying all this to make some argument that he could have won 10 WDCs in his career or anything like that – what I am getting at is that if he is as free from this burden as he appears, I believe we could see something truly spectacular with his comeback. (Incidentally, I also believe this also explains his approach to the media. He doesn’t have to maintain the same level of ‘protection’ for himself to avoid any extra pressure so he can be a bit more up front about his aims.)

He is 41 years old and three years out from the sport, true, but he has also maintained his fitness and connection to the sport during that period. He is not a person who does things by halves and I have no doubt he would not be returning if he wasn’t confident in his own capability. The vast majority of experts (genuine experts – ex-drivers etc) who have commented seem to think that it is not his skill or capacity that will have diminished, but his desire; yet everything about him suggests that he has – if anything – enormous desire. Others have talked about him being in a battle with a younger driver and being the one to back down due to personal circumstances and them knowing that, but Schumacher was infamous for never backing down. His own comments after the recent Jerez test give the impression that what he wanted to ascertain was whether he could still sustain the speed, whether he still had the consistency and he seemed confident that he did. His adaptability is innate. He has a vast array of experience to draw upon. For me, you take out the mental burdening and what excites me is that I think I might get to see the Schumacher I always wanted to see – the one without any specific deficiencies. As a fan, it is a gift beyond anything imaginable.

And of course, I too believe that he would have been meticulous in ascertaining whether the circumstances of the team were what he wanted. I am fairly confident that his and Brawn’s relationship would have meant that Ross was fairly up front with him; and just as Ross has said he trusts Michael’s judgement of his capability, so too Michael would trust Ross’ assessment of the situation. That said, I also believe that driving for Mercedes is something special for him. Schumacher developed a strong relationship with Ferrari given the affinity there, he did not go to the team because he had a particular desire to drive for Ferrari as an icon. It was Mercedes who gave him his start; indeed I think Haug was involved in all that.

Ferrari

You touch briefly on the reasons for Ferrari’s comments in the media as being because they know what is at stake in terms of Schumacher’s potential to help build up the team. I take a slightly different view of all that. My personal opinion is that what they know is at stake is that IF Mercedes beats them or even becomes a serious force to be reckoned with, it will result in the perception that the success Ferrari enjoyed from 00-04 was connected to the Schumacher-Todt-Brawn combination more than anything else. That period in history is at risk of being referenced in terms of the people rather than the team. Plus, there will be questions raised about why Ferrari themselves didn’t do everything they could to retain Schumacher and Brawn.
Anyway, I shall leave it there for you to peruse."

Posts by abulafia:

"Hi dude! Funny thing I decided to log in tonight, after 2-3 weeks, and I see this gem! Razz

Anyway, Michael himself has said that he prefers a neutral car that tends to understeer, because it is more efficient. If the time wasn't 01:12 here, and if I didn't have to get up early for work tomorrow, I'd locate that thread where we had this discussion and dig it up - it was quite interesting.

Anyway, Michael has always liked a neutral car, and has always preferred understeer to oversteer. Yes, he was magnificent in dealing with oversteer, no doubt about it. Yes, most of his spectaculare drives included "oversteering" moments. But that was a reaction to the way the car was behaving, not an induced action.

As I have said, when analyzing drivers' styles, you must look at the geometry of things. The biggest mistake that people make is watch the action that goes on in the cockpit. For example: People think that the 2004-06 Renaults had bucketloads of front end grip, simply by watching Alonso's wheel "hatching". The truth is that these Renaults had a stupifyingly steady rear end, which was bolted to the ground, and which allowed Alonso to chuck the car into the corner in that way. The front end grip would only kick in a few meters before the apex, so it was more a case of a stunning rear end and adjustement of the front end suspension geometry that gave the car these characteristics. If Alonso had only ever driven for McLaren, several "pundits" (and the vast majority of fans) would be raving about his oversteery driving style, and the subtleness of his inputs. Both presumptions (a. that Alonso is a wheel hatching god of oversteer or b. that Alonso is an oversteering driver) are wrong and do not address the issue. Which is that Alonso, being a very, very good driver, is analytical in his approach and adaptable, managing to force the car into his desired projectory, whether that car is understeering, oversteering or whatever. This is, for example, what a driver like Kimi will never be.

Michael has been the master analyst of all times, when it comes to finetuning a car's performance. He knows that slight understeer at the limit is manageable and more efficient over the course of the race, which is why he has always preferred it (and which is why his best results have come behind the wheel of such cars). Of course Michael does have a driving style, but, as I said, you have to think in terms of trajectory and geometry, if you want the truth - not in terms of steering input. Things like steering input, throttle/brake application, etc only help in making the car follow a certain path. Great drivers know this, which is why great drivers are adaptable - they understand that geometry is important, not style. Good or mediocre drivers prefere form over function or, if you prefer, style over result - hence, a simply good driver will try to make the car "react" according to his preferred style. A great driver will work with the car and change his style, so that the car will "do" what he wants. Big difference.

Michael always liked a quick entry, carrying as much speed into the corner as possible. Which is why he always liked a slightly understeery car, because he could gradually kill off speed by gradually increasing the amount of steering lock. He would then slide (by the tiniest of fractions) the rear at the apex, to get the desired positioning for the exit. Which is why MS was always the fastest driver in and out of a corner, but not always the fastest at the very apex. I remember this innovative approach back in 1992-3 was hailed as "four wheel sliding" by the "pundits". Many things have been written over the ensuing years, but the truth remains that Michael (just like all truly great drivers) is a master in adapting, and only thinks in terms of trajectory and positioning on the track. Style is a form that follows function."

"I honestly don't know. I think the best anybody can provide is non-educated guesses, which is not very constructive or helpful.

Nevertheless, Schumi after that dreadful 2005 season (when the car - tyres combination was indescribably poor), lost part of his motivation and became tired of the demands that the sport had of him. In 2006, even though against all odds came back from a 26 points deficit and would have won the championship if it hadn't been for his engine blowing in Suzuka, he was clearly affected by these demands.

What one has to remember though, when trying to predict how he is going to fare up against the new crop of drivers, is that Schumi even in (what everyone believed to be) the twilight of his career in 2006, had easily the legs on Massa. His average qualifying gap to Felippe was around 0.6 seconds, which is huge by any yardstick in modern F1. We all know that Massa has proven to be (in the long run) a better qualifier than Kimi, so this speaks volume of what an un-motivated and tired Schumi can do.

He does appear to be rejuvinated and invigorated. In my opinion, the limitations with regards to what he achieves over the next year will be set by his car, and not by him. He will definitely not be as fast as the 1994 - 2004 Schumacher, but he won't have to. MS has always had speed and talent to burn. The greatest fear of the other drivers should not be his immense talent and speed, but the way Schumi is able to galvanize a team around him and singlemindedly guide them to the top. The way he motivates the people he works with and the way his obsession for results and success is injected in the entire team.

Ferrari know this, because they have been benefited by it in the past - which is why they have been saying all these comments and trying all these mind games ("our drivers can beat him", etc). They understand that something much larger is at stake here from MS winning a championship or two. What's at stake is the birth of a team which will be forged around MS and saturated with his winning mentality.

All the above depend on the way MS performs on track. But he has always been the best analyst of his performances and he is the one who truly knows his abilities and whether he can still cut it. I'll tell you what: even MS at his youngest wasn't as up-beat and pumped up as he is now. I have never seen him in the past make the kind of comments he is making now. Even his "we are here to win the championship" is slightly, but very significantly different to his approach of "we must be in the position to challenge for the championship" which he always assumed whilst at Ferrari. All that could mean a lot, or could very well mean absolutely nothing.

One thing is certain: We will get the chance to see the (arguably) best driver of all times race again, and that's something that we should revel in. He will get his chance to get closure in the way he wants, and he will be able to have some years more of doing what excits him and fulfills him the most. Irregardless of results, all the above are by default good for F1 and for the fans. I, for one, am going to book as many tickets as I can and I have already programmed my DVD recorder...."

"Regarding 1998... Oh, where do we start... I would say the 1996 - 1999 years were preludes to the glorious success of the noughties, in that the car was gradually becoming, year after year, more reliable and more predictable. More efficient, if you prefer. The 1996 car could not be characterized as anything else but a dog of a car. The 1997 and 1998 cars were not very efficient cars, and did tend towards oversteer. The 1997 car in particular was quite nasty, in that it was quite erratic, sometimes demonstrating oversteer and understeer in the same corner. The 1998 car was a definite improvement, approaching the characteristics that the 2000 - 2004 Ferraris would eventually adopt. The problem was the consistency and the lack of development of the goodyear tyres. That, and of course the McLaren which was a rocketship on rails.

By 1999, the car had become much stabler at the rear. Don't forget that, if it hadn't been for MS's accident, he would have in all likelihood won the championship. From then on, the rest is history. Schumacher won 5 championship in a row, driving cars which operated under the same design philosophy: sacrifice ultimate, raw pace for the benefit of efficiency and consistency in the race. It is by no accident that these were the cars with which Schumacher eventually dominated...

Having said that, the fact that he won four races in 1996 and kept the championships of 97 and 98 alive until the very last race, against vastly superior machinery, is a testament of the adaptability and sheer talent of the man. It's proof (if one was needed) that he can operate within a huge spectrum of car handling characteristics. We must never forget that the single, most important characteristic that defined the careers of great drivers has been adaptability. Adaptability ensures that the driver's entire career is successful. Otherwise, you have drivers (such as Button) who shine only when the car is just right for them and the stars are aligned. In fact, in Button's case, he couldn't even manage to remain consistent throughout the season - once the European cold and the lack of development started to affect the car, Barrichello got the better of him (and quite easily I might say)."

"mirial, I think you have hit the nail on the head with some of your comments, and thanks for that.

First, I agree that Schumacher's cars (especially the pre 2004 ones) were balanced on a knife's edge. I.e., it's what you say about operating within a very small window that, when you cross it, makes the car nervous and unpredictable. I think it's a very apt description, and it justifies why many of his team-mates have gone on record saying that they can't drive his setup.

But what I have also tried to explain, is that it's wrong to think in oversteer / understeer terms. They are too narrow and too single-dimensional to describe the complexity of setting up a F1 car and then driving it. The MOST you can say, is that some driver lives better with oversteer (i.e. he's more capable of dealing with it) whereas some other driver is better with handling understeer. Typical examples of the first "batch" would be Hamilton and Frentzen, whereas examples of the second "batch" would include Button and Trulli.

The correct way of looking at it is by examining the trajectory of the car, and its positioning in relation to this trajectory at any given time. Since I mentioned Trulli, just look at how early and deeply he dives into the corner, almost as if the exit from it means diddly squat to him. He is a typical example of a driver who tries to maximize the friction circle at corner entries - you know, the old decreasing understeer increasing steering lock thing, although Trulli works more with his brake pedal to achieve that and less with the steering. Another guy who uses the brake to steer is Hamilton, but in the opposite way, trying to momentarily lock the inside front wheel to pivot the car around. This is a fantastic way to operate, because as opposed to some drivers who slide the rear (therefore, by definition, they lose traction and grip), he makes the car rotate more than the rear tyres grip would allow (i.e. slide) but he keeps at the same time all the grip that the rears have to offer... Fantastic stuff.

You say that Schumacher balanced oversteer with increasing lock, but that's not correct. Increasing lock (unless you mean opposite) will increase oversteer and cause the car to spin. Maybe I am misreading what you wrote....

As for the yaw angle, and the neutral setup that you suggest. Yes, all drivers aim for a neutral setup - the difference is what you want the car to do when that limit is reached and surpassed. Michael always thought that understeer, in general, is more efficient, in that it was easier to deal with and, over the course of the race, it could provide more consistent and repeatable lap times. But you can't always get that. I mean, come on: we are talking about cars who drive for two hours in varying temperatures, track conditions, fuel loads, tyres, etc, etc. At one point you have a great car which handles like a train, and then you bolt on a new pair of shoes and bang - oversteer. Or understeer. Or both. Whatever.

The secret, therefore, of being a great driver is to be adaptable and to manhandle the car in doing the things you want it to do (i.e. follow the trajectory you want, at the speed you want), in extremely varying conditions. The only thing one can (safely) say about MS is that he was awsome and could deal with anything the track, weather, setup could throw at him. Also, don't forget one other, important, parameter: In F1 it's usually your rear tyres who give up the ghost, way before your front tyres give up. An oversteering car at the start of a stint maybe practically undriveable by the end of it, so it's always prudent to setup the car taking account of that fact.

Anyway, I guess we could go on and on about it... But I firmly believe that understeer / oversteer just don't cut it when you are trying to describe driving styles and setups. It's a much more complicated thing. You have to talk about slip angle, about weight management, about trajectory, etc... And one really must brake down the corner in segments, and see what the driver is actually trying to do - not what he ends up getting (usually).

There. One more gigantic post - yet once more I am not sure I've answered any of your questions..."

#1782 Raelene

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Posted 12 May 2010 - 20:10

instead of posting these quotes - why don't you get the people themselves to post so that others can discuss with the actual authors? :confused:

#1783 SeanValen

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Posted 12 May 2010 - 20:34

instead of posting these quotes - why don't you get the people themselves to post so that others can discuss with the actual authors? :confused:



The problem though the people themselfs come from all corners of the universe and don't believe in the same things and don't always intend on a sensible discussion. This is how the forum has been for over 10 years, and with Michael Schumacher back it means more crazyness and people going stupid again on the forums.

The problem is the actual quote pretty much answers alot of what people are posting about, this car handeling debate, but alot of posters are not interested in the actual truth even when it's posted, even when it's in the news and even when it actually gets posted, and even if its printed on your pizza and thrown in your face, it will not be acknowleged, as alot of forumers here have a different view of how f1 history has gone, there's about at least 50 different views of how Schumacher's career has gone, that's the reality a actual fan or sensible forumer is dealing with in getting a decent conversation around here, with Schumi, it's not going to happen, but bravo for trying, otherwise without the sane forumers who are actually interested in the truth, the forums would not survive a MS come back era, the forums have been about him over 10 years, and I've seen vritually every science fiction tale to fiction tale on this forum, quoting the truth like ivand911 has done is like a disinfectant cleaning solution for the foruming threads, just helps the troll flys from sticking for a few seconds before the infestation begins again. :smoking: :smoking:

#1784 aditya-now

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Posted 12 May 2010 - 23:04

...and with Michael Schumacher back it means more crazyness and people going stupid again on the forums.


Wow, I never thought I would hear that out of your mouth, Sean!

What an influence Michael has on people.... ;)


#1785 Buttoneer

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Posted 12 May 2010 - 23:13

No further comment here please, this is for discussion about 'Michael Schumacher'.

There is a discussion in feedback where you can air your views about driver and team threads here;

http://forums.autosp...howtopic=127582

#1786 aditya-now

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Posted 12 May 2010 - 23:53

I want to post here again some posts from this thread:

.....but if the car was incapable of doing that or if that wasn’t the most efficient way of getting that particular car around the track, he (MS) would adjust his behaviour to make everything work as well as possible for that particular car....


Hi ivand911,

thanks for this massive collection. I gather that these quotes are from before the 2010 season started.

Concerning the above statement Rosberg managed obviously better vis a vis Michael in the first four races, whereas in the fifth race the balance of power between MS and Rosberg has been back to where we thought it would be from the beginning.



I want to post here again some posts from this thread:


......One thing is certain: We will get the chance to see the (arguably) best driver of all times race again, and that's something that we should revel in.


Seconded that we should revel in having Michael back. :up:
The solid, fat feeling of Michael sticking his car to the course and the curves is very obviously there again (except for Shanghai, where he got shanghai'd).
It is signature Michael - the power his driving style exudes - very visible in Barcelona, where Michael's confidence was obviously back.



I want to post here again some posts from this thread:


.....The secret, therefore, of being a great driver is to be adaptable and to manhandle the car in doing the things you want it to do (i.e. follow the trajectory you want, at the speed you want), in extremely varying conditions. The only thing one can (safely) say about MS is that he was awsome and could deal with anything the track, weather, setup could throw at him......
There. One more gigantic post - yet once more I am not sure I've answered any of your questions..."


He could deal with anything the track, weather, setup could throw at him.
That's very definitely past tense and, in fact, even back in the old days, he could not deal with anything. Nobody could, can and nobody ever did.
That is part of the Schumi hero worship which is hard to reconcile with the actual facts.

Otherwise in part a very interesting read, it is a pity the authors of these lines are not posting on the Atlas BB.
Thanks again for taking the time to put this together.

Edited by aditya-now, 13 May 2010 - 00:03.


#1787 Jomyboy

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Posted 13 May 2010 - 06:57

There is nothing wrong with hero-worship and I believe abulafia has stated that there will be a bias towards Schumacher in his posts. What I like about what he wrote is how believable it is and how a true Schumacher worship him for. I guess no driver can drive around any problem - thats a fact! Through Abulafia's post, what one gets to realize is how Schumacher is able to make the car work for him. I guess he is the master of development. There is no point in driving a bad car fast, cuz you are never ever gonna use its entire potential. But if you can improve the car, there is more time to be gained. With the homologation of the chasis, nothing can be done for this years car. The FIA has to be blamed for this. So if a team has made a mistake designing the car, there is no way out for them but just survive. The FIA is killing the sport and more importantly killing the art of great drivers. They are trying to level play the entire field. Button winning in Shangai is a disgust to racing!!!! You need to have tyres that drivers can go flat out lap after lap to win the race. Schumacher complained that just after 2 laps of pushing the tyres didnt have any grip available in Shangai. At this rate how is a car that is starting at the back of the field ever gonna come through the field and win the race. And for all those Anti-Schumi fans, it wasnt just Schumacher complaining but even the likes of Alonso, etc. We are never gonna have Belgium 95 ever again where drivers starting 15 and 16 could drive through the field in wet conditions becuz the tyres wouldnt last no more. At this rate, FIA is pushing back the quality of drives by the drivers. I want to see the fastest driver dominate and in all these years with all the changes that the FIA has incorporated, the fastest car-driver package would usually win. But now with controlled tyres, this isnt the case anymore.

Back in 2002, when Schumacher was at his dominating best, there was a suggestion which asked for tyres to be less durable. The reasoning behind it was lets see Schumacher pushing the tyres hard and destroyin it. That would surely get him to stop dominating races so much. It sounded absurd at that time that anybody would want to kill the art of the hardest-fastest drivers to be penalized . But it seems this is what the FIA has finally accomplished. 2010 could have been the best championship of all time, instead we have 2 over-rated drivers in cars that are even more superior to the Mclarens advantage of 98 dominating the wknds. Its only the rain factor that has managed to give the championship some meaning, in what otherwise would have been a complete washout like Ferrari 2004.

#1788 ViMaMo

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Posted 14 May 2010 - 07:30

Schumacher needs a car that changes direction sharply, which has so far proved elusive with the Mercedes. His attempt at creating that artificially has worsened his problems, if the observations of a former F1 technical director are accurate: “Michael always liked a car with a positive turn-in. He was at his fastest with no understeer. If a car inherently understeers then you can only get it balanced by artificially degrading the rear grip. This means less overall grip and Michael’s car in Shanghai had visibly awful traction, making me suspect that he has screwed up the rear just to try and get it to turn in.”


Source

#1789 Craven Morehead

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Posted 14 May 2010 - 07:39

2010 could have been the best championship of all time, instead we have 2 over-rated drivers in cars that are even more superior to the Mclarens advantage of 98 dominating the wknds. Its only the rain factor that has managed to give the championship some meaning, in what otherwise would have been a complete washout like Ferrari 2004.


Rain, yes. Well that and RedBull's remarkable ability to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory.  ;)

#1790 merschu

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Posted 14 May 2010 - 07:56

Some pictures
http://i40.tinypic.com/95u3hi.jpg
http://i40.tinypic.com/w15u29.jpg
http://i43.tinypic.com/x1g1mh.jpg
http://i42.tinypic.com/2mwf8ux.jpg
http://i40.tinypic.com/33n7mt5.jpg
http://i41.tinypic.com/9as20z.jpg
http://i41.tinypic.com/2moe248.jpg
http://i39.tinypic.com/2vvmfsl.jpg
http://www.motorspor...mon-xp-0401.jpg
http://i41.tinypic.com/8zec75.jpg
http://i40.tinypic.com/1kt8j.jpg
http://i44.tinypic.com/qrbx8k.jpg
http://i42.tinypic.com/o8gqgy.jpg
http://i41.tinypic.com/n66etu.jpg
http://i41.tinypic.com/6jm3hf.jpg


Edit: Too many links for the pictures was looking a bit messy!


Edited by merschu, 14 May 2010 - 12:32.
Copyright infringement


#1791 BRK

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Posted 14 May 2010 - 08:21

Excellent pics as usual,thanks! Looks like Michael and Andy are best buds already.

#1792 marchi-91

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Posted 14 May 2010 - 09:37

Immediately thought F2000 when I saw that picture coming out of the tunnel

#1793 Henrytheeigth

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Posted 14 May 2010 - 09:59

Geesh he still thinks he's hot sh!t don't he? :lol: And yes I am an MS fan! :drunk:

#1794 merschu

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Posted 14 May 2010 - 12:34

Too many links for the pictures was looking a bit messy! So here are the other half of links for the pictures.

http://i41.tinypic.com/23rq350.jpg
http://i39.tinypic.com/1zlamop.jpg
http://i39.tinypic.com/k49i7a.jpg
http://i40.tinypic.com/34hcuo6.jpg
http://i39.tinypic.com/2zqbkpd.jpg
http://i41.tinypic.com/2i78cw0.jpg
http://i44.tinypic.com/o8w038.jpg
http://i41.tinypic.com/5x7q1i.jpg
http://i41.tinypic.com/241a1zd.jpg
http://i40.tinypic.com/6fca5l.jpg
http://i43.tinypic.com/2qm3yo2.jpg
http://i42.tinypic.com/2wgf4aw.jpg
http://i39.tinypic.com/fy09w0.jpg
http://i42.tinypic.com/4jx387.jpg
http://i39.tinypic.com/wiuaf8.jpg

#1795 Jomyboy

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Posted 14 May 2010 - 12:48

THANKS FOR THE PICS

#1796 merschu

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Posted 15 May 2010 - 10:58

A lap by Schumi during the FP3.


Edited by merschu, 15 May 2010 - 11:09.


#1797 Jomyboy

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Posted 15 May 2010 - 11:04

IT VERY MUCH LOOKS LIKE SCHUMI HAS GOT A BIT OF TIME IN HAND. HE SHOULD LOOK GOOD FOR POLE TODAY. FINGERS CROSSED

#1798 Speed_Racer

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Posted 15 May 2010 - 11:12

IT VERY MUCH LOOKS LIKE SCHUMI HAS GOT A BIT OF TIME IN HAND. HE SHOULD LOOK GOOD FOR POLE TODAY. FINGERS CROSSED


Pole is unlikely.

I just hope he does better than Rosberg.

#1799 merschu

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Posted 15 May 2010 - 14:52

Schumacher stayed Interview: From Rosberg

(Motorsport Total.com) - Michael Schumacher already denied his 16th Qualifying in Monte Carlo. So far he walked 15 times as the winners in the stable duel - the "Park affair" of 2006, of course, excluded - but Nico Rosberg said the Mercedes drivers this time to the first defeat. 0.046 seconds separated the two at the end. Thus it is from Schumacher's vision in Qualifyingduell now 1:5.

Q: Michael, this about the seven. How do you match the one today? "
Michael Schumacher: "Perhaps not quite as we would wish. The distances are close, it's very obvious, but then not close enough to really to profit from it. We are sixth and seventh. I have to say from my perspective that all of our colleagues drove very fairly. The only car that blocked me was my team-mate. It's a shame but there you go. It happened in Qualy Three when there were only ten cars on the track.

"Whether it would have served really an improvement, I do not know but the good thing is: We are on the inside, have the odd number is a good starting position. The starts were good with us, but the spaces of course very close is. One must of course also see that a maximum of one, two places can make amends. to come into podium near what we wanted and hoped of course that is difficult. "

Q: Nico stands before you. How much is due to the fact that its not the extended wheelbase car with using it? "
Schumacher: "We are five hundredths apart. That is less than a blink of the eye. I think everyone can later say, in that he time also where would have found that, no question. The fact is: We have car exhausted us and I am here Unlike other races at the beginning of the year, not restricted in terms of the vote. "

Question: "In Q2, there was a nose change. Why was this the case?"
Schumacher: "We had this morning a light contact, while the nose was damaged. This is fixed, but apparently not completely. Thus, we have used a different nose."

Q: How much fun it has made Leitplankendschungel of Monte Carlo to go back in? "
RS: That's a challenge. This is pure joy - simply great, so a car through a Leitplankengewirr to swirl so quickly. The round after round things done is precisely what makes up the racing. "

Top 3 were the targets
Q: How much longer you would have expected before the qualifying session for? "
Schumacher: "We had hoped somewhere, top three go to the maybe under, if everything fits. You can see definitely that the distances are close, but unfortunately not close enough."

Q: How much you can help this team has that, in the traffic chaos to find a gap? "
"The curious thing about Schumacher is the history that I, my colleague on one of my laps, unfortunately, has been a bit in the way. Otherwise, the traffic was relatively okay. It was not as bad as feared, at least from our perspective. But I go like this out, that one or the other will sing a different song. "

Q: Does it bother you that Nico is once again in front of you? "
"For me it is about the general situation. Whether I now a little before or behind Nico am, less is important. I thought you would rather be in front than behind his colleague Schumacher, but when one is talking about half a tenth, then we need not big on talking. Rather, we must keep to what is really our goal: to fight for the championship. We have to win races, but in the situation we are currently not yet available. This is more of what is in the foreground .


http://translate.goo...y...=auto&tl=en

Edited by merschu, 15 May 2010 - 14:56.


Advertisement

#1800 Ruf

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Posted 15 May 2010 - 20:52

Schumacher stayed Interview: From Rosberg

(Motorsport Total.com) - Michael Schumacher already denied his 16th Qualifying in Monte Carlo. So far he walked 15 times as the winners in the stable duel - the "Park affair" of 2006, of course, excluded - but Nico Rosberg said the Mercedes drivers this time to the first defeat. 0.046 seconds separated the two at the end. Thus it is from Schumacher's vision in Qualifyingduell now 1:5.

Q: Michael, this about the seven. How do you match the one today? "
Michael Schumacher: "Perhaps not quite as we would wish. The distances are close, it's very obvious, but then not close enough to really to profit from it. We are sixth and seventh. I have to say from my perspective that all of our colleagues drove very fairly. The only car that blocked me was my team-mate. It's a shame but there you go. It happened in Qualy Three when there were only ten cars
[...some stuff...]
yet available. This is more of what is in the foreground .

My eyes hurt. Bad.