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#18051 MikeTekRacing

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Posted 25 March 2012 - 14:50

jesus, so many drama queens around like it's girl kindergarten hour


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#18052 Scotracer

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Posted 25 March 2012 - 14:51

"But this will not be done from one race to another, it will take some time, and we need to give it that time. Still it is a fact that we have improved, so I can fly home now being sure about this and looking forward to fighting in the races to come."

Which backs up my argument; who realistically thought the supposed issue was going to be solved in a back-to-back race weekend? I admit there is a problem somewhere, but it was never going to be fixed that quickly.

That doesn't necessarily mean there's panic: as Michael said: " Still it is a fact that we have improved, so I can fly home now being sure about this and looking forward to fighting in the races to come."


Their comments after Australia's analysis made it out like they had found the issue. Then bang, again, come race day the thing just wont go around the track quickly.

I'm not being melodramatic...I just don't see any reason to believe this team is capable of actually over-coming issues and move forward during a season.

#18053 Sakae

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Posted 25 March 2012 - 14:51

Again you're all so quick to jump to conclusions.

Has MS even finished/done a bone dry race in the W03?

NO! FFS why don't you wait till that happens then make conclusions. THAT'S ALL IM SAYING. I'm not saying the car will have the pace of the top teams, what I'm saying is don't jump to conclusions/ write 'em off when they've hardly any real racing in the dry.

I agree with the strategist bit- he needs to go NOW.

I am not writing Michael Schumacher off, and its hard to predict where we go from here, but despite uncertainty ahead of us in this season, fact remains that first two races weren't really very impressive. Vettel may or may not recover from his misfortunes, and RBR may or may not be on the par with others, but position in today's race by both Merc drivers leaves me more than disappointed. Combine that with backstabbing in commercial division by the other teams and FOM, and one wonders what else can go wrong, if anything is actually left undamaged. I am seriously worrying they will discontinue their presence in 2013, and possibly not fully supporting developments in 2012. I would not blame them if they say NO to FOM, but it is a shame we face a such possibility. It is not a good weekend by any measure.

Edited by Sakae, 25 March 2012 - 14:52.


#18054 Lelouch

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Posted 25 March 2012 - 14:52

"But this will not be done from one race to another, it will take some time, and we need to give it that time. Still it is a fact that we have improved, so I can fly home now being sure about this and looking forward to fighting in the races to come."

Which backs up my argument; who realistically thought the supposed issue was going to be solved in a back-to-back race weekend? I admit there is a problem somewhere, but it was never going to be fixed that quickly.

That doesn't necessarily mean there's panic: as Michael said: " Still it is a fact that we have improved, so I can fly home now being sure about this and looking forward to fighting in the races to come."

The problem is that they have left the tyre problem open for years. It's moved on from W01 to W02 and now to W03, i don't know if it's exactly the same thing but there it all has to do with their understanding of the tyres. Ofc, it won't be fixed in one week but i hope they won't have to waste half the season investigating and then on to W04. I don't expect miracles i only expect them to have a proper racing car even if it's slower than the top teams.

#18055 zyphro

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Posted 25 March 2012 - 14:53

Their comments after Australia's analysis made it out like they had found the issue. Then bang, again, come race day the thing just wont go around the track quickly.

I'm not being melodramatic...I just don't see any reason to believe this team is capable of actually over-coming issues and move forward during a season.

:rotfl:

Ok you just like the others have completely written them off after 2 races.

I won't bother replying to similar responses, but bookmark this and come back in a couple of months. I bet you will see a massive improvement. :wave:

#18056 Scotracer

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Posted 25 March 2012 - 14:53

I think this is the most depressing part of the weekend:

Ross Brawn: "Clearly we have a conundrum with this car that we have to unravel. After such an encouraging qualifying session, and indeed the fuel runs that we did on Friday, we struggled to get the tyres to work properly in the race today. There were little windows when we seemed to get them working and other times where we fell out of them completely. I don't believe that we are abusing the tyres, just not using them properly, and it's a problem that we have to solve if we are going to move forward with the car"

They still don't know why this was so.


This is my point. It's almost like the car just falls in and out of the operating window. A fundamental of engineering, and just about every other endeavour, is to know your enemy.

zyphro, fine, don't respond but history tells a story.

Edited by Scotracer, 25 March 2012 - 14:54.


#18057 Octavian

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Posted 25 March 2012 - 14:56

How could they have not spotted the tyre problem in pre season testing?

#18058 Paco

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Posted 25 March 2012 - 14:57

If F1 was easy, there'd be hundreds of people trying to get in. People have unrealistic expectations of what it takes to put together a team, a competitive car or a great driver at the helm. There is NEVER a simple fix in F1 unless a part was broken and they didn't catch it until after the race (like a damper etc).

It's probably gonna take 3-4 months to get better performance out of the tires unless Pirelli change the construction or compounds of the tires if too many teams complain about a certain characteristic of them.

#18059 jj2728

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Posted 25 March 2012 - 14:58

Schumacher blew the start, got punted by Grosjean and had a dog of a car today, he was lucky to get that 1 point.

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#18060 Massa

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Posted 25 March 2012 - 14:59

Well.. that was pretty much the case for EVERY single driver today in the race! :rotfl:

I don't get why people make a huge deal about qualifying in dry and racing in wet and amazed there is a difference in their performance. IT MEANS NOTHING!

Wet races are a lottery, a proven fact time and time again. Nice for news as it shakes up the results. Nice for mid pack teams as one or two usually nail it and put in a good result that they never would have otherwise. Today was Sauber.

So F1 usually wins a series when a few wet races happen as it mixes things, makes big headlines and shakes everything up.



A lottery ? Perez and Alonso was the fastest for all the race. After the SC, the track was drying until the end. It was a lottery only before the SC. After this, it was just a long stint with Inters ( W03 is unable to do this ), and a stint with slick tyres.

Today, for Mercedes, it was the same race than at Melbourne : bloody fast one lap pace, but their race pace is awful.

Edited by Massa, 25 March 2012 - 15:00.


#18061 zyphro

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Posted 25 March 2012 - 15:00

zyphro, fine, don't respond but history tells a story.


Damn right it does. Remember how long it took Schumacher and Ferrari to win a WDC again? :wave:

#18062 MikeTekRacing

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Posted 25 March 2012 - 15:00

A lottery ? Perez and Alonso was the fastest for all the race. After the SC, the track was drying until the end. It was a lottery only before the SC. After this, it was just a long stint with Inters ( W03 is unable to do this ), and a stint with slick tyres.

this is the MS thread

can we keep all the imature paranoia about w03 on that specific track?
there's way too much junk in here

#18063 zyphro

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Posted 25 March 2012 - 15:01

It's probably gonna take 3-4 months to get better performance out of the tires unless Pirelli change the construction or compounds of the tires if too many teams complain about a certain characteristic of them.


This. :up:

#18064 Paco

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Posted 25 March 2012 - 15:06

How could they have not spotted the tyre problem in pre season testing?


OMG.. Different temperatures back then. They were heavily in R&D trying out soo many different parts and realibilty .. preseason isn't just about out right performacne due to the ridiculously short window of testing. Between doing comparison testing (2011 vs. 2012), between doing qualifying vs. race distance.. realibility testing.. time spent on the DRS modifiication they made etc. You can't do it.

PLUS...
Last weekend, MS didn't put any real # of race kms.
This weekend, wet race.

How in the world can they figure race pace or issues when they can't even run a normal program as a result of the past 2 weeks circumstances.

#18065 SeanValen

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Posted 25 March 2012 - 15:07

I dunno if it was a issue, but the temperatures were cooler then usual in Sepang, how much was the race set up qualifying geared for a hot race on Sunday...

I think we needed a proper dry race, I'm all for rain races, but I'm against them when competition is close and we have oversea races where the teamhas done work really for dry races before they get back to make improvements.

So many people set fastest laps today in the rain, I think alot of cars were strong at certain times, and MS at this time would prefer dry races to read the car on different tracks, he doesn't need to make wet set up hopes and dreams set ups, sometimes you can get rain in the wrong race, at the wrong time of the season, and I think sepang had just rained for maybe 10 laps, we would of had a better overall race for everyone.

#18066 Massa

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Posted 25 March 2012 - 15:10

Counter argument: in Aus ham and but were quickest. How come they werent quickest in the wet?

Also where was ALO, williams were quicker than ferrari in dry. What happened today? Williams were slower no?



It's not a counter argument. In 2008, Ferrari was the quickest car but Mclaren car was always the quickest in the wet.

And at Melbourne, Williams was only quicker during the last stint. Before, Alonso was quicker.

#18067 Kubiccia

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 00:02

Wet races are a lottery, a proven fact time and time again. Nice for news as it shakes up the results. Nice for mid pack teams as one or two usually nail it and put in a good result that they never would have otherwise. Today was Sauber.

The race had more than 15 laps on dry tires and Mercedes were nowhere. In this stage of dry track, Kimi did a couple of fastest laps, Webber some 3 or 4, Pastor did at least once and Perez did like 5 or 6 times.

Schumi minimized the damaged but, with W03, it will be a fight for last points all the way through this first part of the season, at least.

A lottery ? Perez and Alonso was the fastest for all the race. After the SC, the track was drying until the end. It was a lottery only before the SC. After this, it was just a long stint with Inters ( W03 is unable to do this ), and a stint with slick tyres.

Today, for Mercedes, it was the same race than at Melbourne : bloody fast one lap pace, but their race pace is awful.

:up:

#18068 ClubmanGT

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 05:24

How did they miss the tyre issue?

In all honesty, I suspect there was actually something else far more worrying on the W03 that they were focussing on instead of the tyres. We could all see the wear during testing, photos were posted here and we stressed, rightly as it seems. But they wouldn't have 'missed' it. I think they had something else on their mind and just decided that the tyre eating temperature problem was the lesser of two evils. Cooling maybe? Who knows. But you're right, they should have seen the wear rates and the temperature issues should have been obvious at the start of longer runs in testing.

#18069 black magic

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 06:46

how bout both tracks had poor rubber laid down due to rain. completely different temps, wet/dry in malaysia etc. look where button ended up and hamilton looked pedestrian after the restart and vettel is not yet happy with his car.

the car has balance is quick albeit to date only over a single lap and yet friday looked very promising with mercedes demonstrating no greater tyre wear than mclaren and rbr etc. is it not entirely possible their set ups designed to combat the issues from aussie then humbled them in the wet. that is the trouble with having a weakness is that you then compound weakness with errors or more extreme set ups etc.

#18070 zyphro

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 08:09

It's not a counter argument. In 2008, Ferrari was the quickest car but Mclaren car was always the quickest in the wet.

And at Melbourne, Williams was only quicker during the last stint. Before, Alonso was quicker.


Sorry but what the hell are you talking about?

McLaren was quick in the dry of 08 no? That's the point.

Edited by zyphro, 26 March 2012 - 08:10.


#18071 zyphro

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 08:11

We will never know about tyre deg in the warm, since we never had a dry race yesterday....

#18072 Scotracer

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 08:13

Tyre deg wasn't the problem! It was that they couldn't get the tyres at correct operating temperatures/pressures (Brawn confirmed this). Look at the lap chart for MSC - his times were up and down for the entirety of the final stint. Rosberg had the same issue in Australia but also followed with massive deg (and I believe he struggled with it more than MSC yesterday too).





#18073 zyphro

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 08:16

Tyre deg wasn't the problem! It was that they couldn't get the tyres at correct operating temperatures/pressures (Brawn confirmed this). Look at the lap chart for MSC - his times were up and down for the entirety of the final stint. Rosberg had the same issue in Australia but also followed with massive deg (and I believe he struggled with it more than MSC yesterday too).


I never said it was :rolleyes: .

There are still some people who believe it was tyre deg that was causing the tyre woes.

Edited by zyphro, 26 March 2012 - 08:16.


#18074 KiloWatt

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 08:18

Grosjean: "I was there, I was careful and unfortunately I think it was Schumacher came to hit me and in Turn Four I spun,"
http://www.gpupdate....tters-malaysia/

Benetton/Renault/Lotus: Giving me reasons to hate them since 1986.

(sorry if already posted, only just read it and had to get it out of my system - feeling much better now)

#18075 zyphro

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 08:25

Grosjean: "I was there, I was careful and unfortunately I think it was Schumacher came to hit me and in Turn Four I spun,"
http://www.gpupdate....tters-malaysia/

Benetton/Renault/Lotus: Giving me reasons to hate them since 1986.

(sorry if already posted, only just read it and had to get it out of my system - feeling much better now)


I posted the same quote in a diff thread, but yes he is a classless 'so and so'.

#18076 MCh000

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 08:31

Grosjean: "I was there, I was careful and unfortunately I think it was Schumacher came to hit me and in Turn Four I spun,"
http://www.gpupdate....tters-malaysia/

...


I really don't want to think bad of him. Maybe translation is not accurate? :D

#18077 zyphro

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 08:32

I really don't want to think bad of him. Maybe translation is not accurate? :D


Another source is Pf1 site: pretty much the same as that quote. Growjon said he spun and somehow MSC hit him yea.....

#18078 KiloWatt

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 08:45

I really don't want to think bad of him. Maybe translation is not accurate? :D


You're a bigger man than I am. I shamelessly admit that I hate Lotus' guts and I won't hide it(I take my inspiration from Frans). I could never ever like that team. That's why I never even go into their team thread, I'd be banned in 10s flat for trolling and starting fights. And the moderators would be 100% justified in banning me! :lol:

Anyway, my first though at reading that quote was "If Schumacher wanted to hit you, you'd know it - right Jacques, Damon?" {btw, you guys in this thread can take joke right?}

Edited by KiloWatt, 26 March 2012 - 08:46.


#18079 Lelouch

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 08:47

Anyway, my first though at reading that quote was "If Schumacher wanted to hit you, you'd know it - right Jacques, Damon?"

Edit for typing fail: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

Edited by Lelouch, 26 March 2012 - 08:47.


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#18080 Augurk

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 08:52

Anyway, my first though at reading that quote was "If Schumacher wanted to hit you, you'd know it - right Jacques, Damon?" {btw, you guys in this thread can take joke right?}

:rotfl: :up: :smoking:

Had a good laugh at that!

#18081 Diablobb81

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 09:41

The problem with the incident with RG is that last year in Silverstone Michael got a stop and go for something less. It's always fun to see steward bias against Michael.

#18082 Rol

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 09:44

I am not writing Michael Schumacher off, and its hard to predict where we go from here, but despite uncertainty ahead of us in this season, fact remains that first two races weren't really very impressive. Vettel may or may not recover from his misfortunes, and RBR may or may not be on the par with others, but position in today's race by both Merc drivers leaves me more than disappointed. Combine that with backstabbing in commercial division by the other teams and FOM, and one wonders what else can go wrong, if anything is actually left undamaged. I am seriously worrying they will discontinue their presence in 2013, and possibly not fully supporting developments in 2012. I would not blame them if they say NO to FOM, but it is a shame we face a such possibility. It is not a good weekend by any measure.



Looked through lap times and Schumacher's race is not as terrible as it seemed via LiveTiming. He surely had problems with getting tyres work and also with degradation, but I think he did a superb job in that car. To me his personal performance was just about perfect in both Melbourne and Malaysia.

A lot of teams seem to have different issues with the tyres. Mercedes has increased competency in development so much that they should be able to develep a Sauber kind of exhaust system fairly quickly. I really hope they recognised this outage already at the first testing session and that they are working on it like crazy.

As for the politics with the Concorde Agreement, I agree that this is really ugly. What is this all about? I would put my bet on Ferrari and Luca Cordero di Montezemolo.
I suppose there is a great tension between: Ferrari/LCDM and Todt/Brawn/Costa/Schumacher. Should an extraordinary group of people (Todt,Brawn,Byrne,Costa,Schumacher) or Ferrari/LCDM get credit for the epic successive WCC and WDC wins? This is ridiculous, as I think all of them should. Although I suspect LCDM wanted the main credit for himself, so that if all these people leave and Ferrari continue winning - then it will be remembered as the "Montezemolo era", that changed the fortunes of Ferrari.
Well, the fact that Schumacher came back after three years (probably contractually he could not race for other teams before), and Brawn has become principal of the greatest,
richest, historical rival. This looks really bad for Ferrari. This is a battle for retrospective interpretation of the years 1996-2007, it is a battle for ego and the history books.

I would expect Mercedes not to give up, and I would expect Ferrari to play the dirtiest tricks they have in hand. Concorde Agreement seems to be one of them.

Another battle front would be the Resource Restriction Agreement. What do you know about this? Is this voluntary, what does it mean that Ferrari got out of it?

Next thing is the tyre front. I don't think Ferrari is looking very good there, YET. So this is a theoretical question: What keeps Pirelli from giving, getting exclusive information to/from certain teams. This should not be anything radical, just for example one team indicating ("we still found a nice way to heat tyres"), and then unexpectedly Pirelli is developing a tyre that is extremely sensitive to heating. Do we have any system that prevents this? In case we have an independent tyre supplier, I think it should present the 2013 tyres, let's say by 2012 June, so that all teams have equal chances to develop their cars. I want to see racing, not gambling, and especially not gambling with loaded dice.

Edited by Rol, 26 March 2012 - 09:48.


#18083 MikeTekRacing

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 10:58

The race had more than 15 laps on dry tires and Mercedes were nowhere. In this stage of dry track, Kimi did a couple of fastest laps, Webber some 3 or 4, Pastor did at least once and Perez did like 5 or 6 times.

:up:

on a green, cold track with cars setup to take the heat

really representative

#18084 zyphro

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 11:34

on a green, cold track with cars setup to take the heat

really representative

:up:

Going to quit posting in this forum till the China Gp.

See you guys then :up:.

Edited by zyphro, 26 March 2012 - 11:34.


#18085 Sakae

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 11:55

Looked through lap times and Schumacher's race is not as terrible as it seemed via LiveTiming. He surely had problems with getting tyres work and also with degradation, but I think he did a superb job in that car. To me his personal performance was just about perfect in both Melbourne and Malaysia.

A lot of teams seem to have different issues with the tyres. Mercedes has increased competency in development so much that they should be able to develep a Sauber kind of exhaust system fairly quickly. I really hope they recognised this outage already at the first testing session and that they are working on it like crazy.

As for the politics with the Concorde Agreement, I agree that this is really ugly. What is this all about? I would put my bet on Ferrari and Luca Cordero di Montezemolo.
I suppose there is a great tension between: Ferrari/LCDM and Todt/Brawn/Costa/Schumacher. Should an extraordinary group of people (Todt,Brawn,Byrne,Costa,Schumacher) or Ferrari/LCDM get credit for the epic successive WCC and WDC wins? This is ridiculous, as I think all of them should. Although I suspect LCDM wanted the main credit for himself, so that if all these people leave and Ferrari continue winning - then it will be remembered as the "Montezemolo era", that changed the fortunes of Ferrari.
Well, the fact that Schumacher came back after three years (probably contractually he could not race for other teams before), and Brawn has become principal of the greatest,
richest, historical rival. This looks really bad for Ferrari. This is a battle for retrospective interpretation of the years 1996-2007, it is a battle for ego and the history books.

I would expect Mercedes not to give up, and I would expect Ferrari to play the dirtiest tricks they have in hand. Concorde Agreement seems to be one of them.

Another battle front would be the Resource Restriction Agreement. What do you know about this? Is this voluntary, what does it mean that Ferrari got out of it?

Next thing is the tyre front. I don't think Ferrari is looking very good there, YET. So this is a theoretical question: What keeps Pirelli from giving, getting exclusive information to/from certain teams. This should not be anything radical, just for example one team indicating ("we still found a nice way to heat tyres"), and then unexpectedly Pirelli is developing a tyre that is extremely sensitive to heating. Do we have any system that prevents this? In case we have an independent tyre supplier, I think it should present the 2013 tyres, let's say by 2012 June, so that all teams have equal chances to develop their cars. I want to see racing, not gambling, and especially not gambling with loaded dice.

Michael has not extended his contract yet, and I think timing for that would be around August. (That's my guess only). There are however and unfortunately many issues on the table at the same time which may affect his decision. Per Nico's comment degradation issue seems to be set aside at least for now, and lack of race performance has to be resolved, otherwise it will play into hands of the individuals (on inside) who want to take Mercedes out of F1. CA is another thing, and I am puzzled by the not so well hidden adversarial position towards Mercedes that FOM have adopted. At the end however business is business, and I am not privy to their balance sheet to determine pro and cons in final tally. I am merely wondering if Mercedes will now take their case to the EU commission, competitiveness division. They might, although like in Japan, in Germany lawyers enter the scene as a last resort only.
Last issue you have mentioned - I am not sure what to think about Hembery, but should Mercedes find out there is information withheld from them about tires, whilst exclusively shared with some other teams, and I don’t know if it was, result of that would almost certainly end up in courts with very unpredictable results. This would not be the same case Bridgestone had with Ferrari a few years ago.

Edited by Sakae, 26 March 2012 - 11:56.


#18086 ivand911

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 12:25

:up:
Going to quit posting in this forum till the China Gp.
See you guys then :up:.

I tried that last week. It didn't work well. :p

Edited by ivand911, 26 March 2012 - 12:26.


#18087 Mestrades

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 12:26

Now, do you realize how unfortunate that is the Mercedes? From Australia that I warned you and you all ignored my comments. Now, your fall is harder than not mine! :)
Confirmed what I said, now I just need to confirm that Mercedes will be the seventh team this year, they will not get any podium and obviously, no victory, and I dare say that Mercedes will get to leave the image of Michael damaged and sunk. I am convinced that Michael will not renew.
Greetings!

#18088 KiloWatt

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 12:28

Now, do you realize how unfortunate that is the Mercedes? From Australia that I warned you and you all ignored my comments. Now, your fall is harder than not mine! :)
Confirmed what I said, now I just need to confirm that Mercedes will be the seventh team this year, they will not get any podium and obviously, no victory, and I dare say that Mercedes will get to leave the image of Michael damaged and sunk. I am convinced that Michael will not renew.
Greetings!


What's next week's lottery numbers?

#18089 Sakae

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 12:28

Tire issues, whatever they are, is not exclusive to Mercedes, thus to isolate this team as the only one that has lost the fight is not very accurate. Secondly, we went through only two races, and if anything, Malaysia proved that situation can perform U-turn in matter of one weekend. Predictions at this stage are rather very tricky business.

Edited by Sakae, 26 March 2012 - 12:29.


#18090 Wade

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 12:29

This is getting sad.

Ah, well. I guess MS's days as an F1 driver are numbered and soon, we'll realize how lucky we are to get a second glimpse of Michael 10 years from now. All we can do, is appreciate him doing his thing for one last time before going away for good. Just one fairytale race please? That's all we can ask for. One more great moment to add to an already great career.

And im still waiting for that moment to come, whether it will come - that IS the question.......

#18091 Determined

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 12:38

This is getting sad.

Ah, well. I guess MS's days as an F1 driver are numbered and soon, we'll realize how lucky we are to get a second glimpse of Michael 10 years from now. All we can do, is appreciate him doing his thing for one last time before going away for good. Just one fairytale race please? That's all we can ask for. One more great moment to add to an already great career.

And im still waiting for that moment to come, whether it will come - that IS the question.......


He'll come good, you don't win as many titles as him doing nothing.

#18092 ivand911

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 12:41

Yes, it is sad that his last races are wasted in uncompetitive car.

#18093 Rol

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 12:48

Michael has not extended his contract yet, and I think timing for that would be around August. (That's my guess only). There are however and unfortunately many issues on the table at the same time which may affect his decision. Per Nico's comment degradation issue seems to be set aside at least for now, and lack of race performance has to be resolved, otherwise it will play into hands of the individuals (on inside) who want to take Mercedes out of F1. CA is another thing, and I am puzzled by the not so well hidden adversarial position towards Mercedes that FOM have adopted. At the end however business is business, and I am not privy to their balance sheet to determine pro and cons in final tally. I am merely wondering if Mercedes will now take their case to the EU commission, competitiveness division. They might, although like in Japan, in Germany lawyers enter the scene as a last resort only.
Last issue you have mentioned - I am not sure what to think about Hembery, but should Mercedes find out there is information withheld from them about tires, whilst exclusively shared with some other teams, and I don’t know if it was, result of that would almost certainly end up in courts with very unpredictable results. This would not be the same case Bridgestone had with Ferrari a few years ago.


I agree with you that all this will have an influence on Michael's decision, although I think this machination can backfire. Michael might stay just to show that he will fight with Mercedes and Ross until the end. If Mercedes think they hurt their business unfairly, that is a different story. I agree that most likely they will wait with the legal case till the very end. Also, if it gets there - they might just leave F1 for a long time once again, let's say 30 years.

As for Pirelli, I am very unsatisfied with the situation. It is right to have one supplier. I hated to have two suppliers, since one of them was ususally so much better, that it made car development and racing unimportant. The heart of the problem is that they do not even need to give exclusive information to anyone. It is enough if an F1 team "shares" with them a development direction, and it just somehow "unconsciously" affects the kind of tyre they bring to the season. It can happen anyday, and there is no way to attack this successfully in a court. This is a systematic problem, and I am not accusing anyone, yet. But the possibility is there to corrupt the system, and F1 is as corrupt as it gets. I seriously think they should make tires available 1 year ahead, otherwise the belief in neutrality of Pirelli will not be possible to maintain.


#18094 Sakae

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 13:01

Hembery seems to be around Whitmarsh a lot, yet Pirelli is an Italian company which would like to see undoubtedly Ferrari on the front row. If you begin to compile circumstantial evidence that way, it looks really conspiratorial, but is it true? Car design direction and data of some kind (I do not know details) were allegedly exchanged between Bridgestone and Ferrari in the past, and I wonder if presence of Michelin, and desire beating them had to do something with it, but with sole supplier it would be sad to find today that we have on hands similar case.

Edited by Sakae, 26 March 2012 - 13:01.


#18095 schubacca

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 13:16

Hey, I know that Merc is not as strong in race trim....

But

I seem to be more excited this year than last. I am being bold here...... But seeing that there is a lot of prognosticating going on....

I feel that MS may win a race this year..... (I have not rational argument, just a hope/feeling!!!:)

Best regards,

Edited by schubacca, 26 March 2012 - 13:17.


#18096 IceSkyrim

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 13:22

Posted Image

Schumy looks a bit waisted... not having much fun lately. :well:

#18097 Rol

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 13:26

Hembery seems to be around Whitmarsh a lot, yet Pirelli is an Italian company which would like to see undoubtedly Ferrari on the front row. If you begin to compile circumstantial evidence that way, it looks really conspiratorial, but is it true? Car design direction and data of some kind (I do not know details) were allegedly exchanged between Bridgestone and Ferrari in the past, and I wonder if presence of Michelin, and desire beating them had to do something with it, but with sole supplier it would be sad to find today that we have on hands similar case.


I have been following F1 too long to forget about all my illusions with this business. :well: If there is an easy way to currupt a system, they will do it in F1, it is the nature of it.
I hope not to be conspirational, I even think that the situation is quite good in the moment with noone having a great advantage. I just think it would be in the interest of F1 to have all the teams sit together and create a tyre system that allows the least temptation for human corruption. Of course you will never eliminate it totally, but the kind of efforts like "all teams can be present when Pirelli testing" are just not good enough. My recommendation is to have tires well before development. I do not see a point why tires should be developed for every race only a few months-weeks ahead. Bring them exactly a year ahead instead.

#18098 Sakae

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 14:34

It is increasingly becoming harder and harder, but I believe that not all of us are bad. In some eastern cultures it is being considered as a part of the fine art of war-strategy to befriend you first, just for purpose to defeat you at the end. This philosophy, based on traditional ethics, is immoral to most European cultures, but these days we need to be prepared for everything. Keep the faith, Rol. :)

#18099 Rol

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 17:38

It is increasingly becoming harder and harder, but I believe that not all of us are bad. In some eastern cultures it is being considered as a part of the fine art of war-strategy to befriend you first, just for purpose to defeat you at the end. This philosophy, based on traditional ethics, is immoral to most European cultures, but these days we need to be prepared for everything. Keep the faith, Rol. :)


Thanks for the encouragment! :wave: I truly need it! I also do not think that all of us are bad. I believe in virtue ethics, we have to make a call in every single day of our life.
If you create an easy to corrupt system, someone, someday will decide to corrupt it.

The thing you said about eastern war-strategy is very interesting. It would be considered immoral in European cultures, but it surely exists around us as well. Some of the worst things we get in life come from people we considered friends before. Is this developing over time, or is this precalculated? You are right that one has to give enough time before trusting someone to be a true friend.

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#18100 MikeTekRacing

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 18:00

Schumy looks a bit waisted... not having much fun lately. :well:

lately? have you seen pictures taken 24hrs before that one?
it's just a picture, don't put too much drama in it