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Michael Schumacher (merged)


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#18351 Jazza

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Posted 16 April 2012 - 16:17

This has been done to death. Does it have to be dragged up every couple of pages on this thread?

Damon himself said a long time ago he should not have gone for that gap as it was always dissapearing. Damon also appears to have gotten over it - maybe you could try doing the same?


Really? I certainly remember him saying that in hindsight he should have waited, but that was because he later knew that MS would not have been able to finish the race from his off. I don't remember him saying that it was somehow his mistake for trying to pass.

Edited by Jazza, 16 April 2012 - 16:20.


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#18352 jbarokF1

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Posted 16 April 2012 - 16:51

I've never been a MS fan and he's probably my least favorite among the champions on the grid. But I really feel sorry for him yesterday. He could have possibly finished on the podium or at least a handful of points. But he surely is driving better this year since his return.

#18353 Afterburner

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Posted 16 April 2012 - 17:07

I've never been a MS fan and he's probably my least favorite among the champions on the grid. But I really feel sorry for him yesterday. He could have possibly finished on the podium or at least a handful of points. But he surely is driving better this year since his return.

It's nice to know things like this sometimes--makes us fans feel a little less alone in our despair, to put it one way. :up: Not that I'm too stressed about last weekend's result--I just thought I'd say thanks for the post 'cause I'm sure some people here appreciate it. :p

I'm sure a lot of us in this thread hope he'll be on the podium again soon.

#18354 jbarokF1

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Posted 16 April 2012 - 17:41

It's nice to know things like this sometimes--makes us fans feel a little less alone in our despair, to put it one way. :up: Not that I'm too stressed about last weekend's result--I just thought I'd say thanks for the post 'cause I'm sure some people here appreciate it. :p

I'm sure a lot of us in this thread hope he'll be on the podium again soon.


Am a KR fan so I know the feeling after the results of last weekend. Possible good results ended up in a bad ending. Anyway, new hopes this weekend.

#18355 MightyMoose

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Posted 16 April 2012 - 17:59

Schumacher's conduct on the race track can often be controversial, with there being no doubt at times that he's acted to the detriment of racing & his image. What also cannot be ignored is how much of a team player he is.

It's not only yesterday where he refused to throw his team under the bus, I'm sure most can recall Suzuka 2006 and his reaction to the blown engine basically ending his title chances for the year.

Some of the best drivers in F1 could still learn a lot from MS about being a team player.

#18356 4MEN

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Posted 16 April 2012 - 19:40

I've never been a MS fan and he's probably my least favorite among the champions on the grid. But I really feel sorry for him yesterday. He could have possibly finished on the podium or at least a handful of points. But he surely is driving better this year since his return.


I agree with you. That's my point: I hated Schumacher for a long time but I felt a bit sorry for him yesterday. Driving towards his best result since his return... then a silly mistake, not his fault, and to add more fire, his teammate win his first GP AND the first win for Mercedes in years. That must hurt.

#18357 jbarokF1

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Posted 16 April 2012 - 20:23

I agree with you. That's my point: I hated Schumacher for a long time but I felt a bit sorry for him yesterday. Driving towards his best result since his return... then a silly mistake, not his fault, and to add more fire, his teammate win his first GP AND the first win for Mercedes in years. That must hurt.


Yup. And it's good to see that he's now very much of a team-player unlike during Ferrari days and it's good to see him cheer for Rosberg from pitwall.

#18358 puxanando

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Posted 16 April 2012 - 20:32

..... and it's good to see him cheer for Rosberg from pitwall.



 ;) he is a very good diplomate! Sure inside he was very very angry not to be in Nicos place!


#18359 jbarokF1

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Posted 16 April 2012 - 20:39

;) he is a very good diplomate! Sure inside he was very very angry not to be in Nicos place!


...ofcourse, that's natural.

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#18360 tifosi4life

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Posted 16 April 2012 - 20:55

...ofcourse, that's natural.


exactly... and if any driver did, they probably should hang up the helmet for good.


#18361 Schumacher7

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Posted 16 April 2012 - 22:02

Yup. And it's good to see that he's now very much of a team-player unlike during Ferrari days and it's good to see him cheer for Rosberg from pitwall.

I'd say he's always been a team player, he never used to blame the team, at least he not outside of the team, I think the fact he used to get "preferential treatment" as some call it, was because he was a team player and the team gave back to him what he gave to it, they gave him the best opportunity to win and he gave back to the team more wins than anyone else in Formula 1, to say he didn't used to be a team player is very harsh imo.

#18362 jbarokF1

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Posted 16 April 2012 - 22:55

I'd say he's always been a team player, he never used to blame the team, at least he not outside of the team, I think the fact he used to get "preferential treatment" as some call it, was because he was a team player and the team gave back to him what he gave to it, they gave him the best opportunity to win and he gave back to the team more wins than anyone else in Formula 1, to say he didn't used to be a team player is very harsh imo.


Okay wrong choice of word..instead of team-player I think I would just say..never was fair to his teammates in terms of who gets preferencial treatment. Anyway, it's just my personal opinion..

#18363 Lelouch

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 11:31

I hope that the first win of his return will be even more emphatic than Rosberg's.. And I would actually want it to be in rainy conditions, something not possible in current F1..

On another note there's high chance it's gonna be the last race at Spa for both Schumy and Kimi it would be nice if they can fight for the win with Schumy winning it ( the last King of Spa :p )!

#18364 Jon83

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 11:42

Showed a lot of class on Sunday, as he has done all season. Quite similar to the San Marino GP which Ralf won in his immediate comments after retirement.

He is driving, as Martin Brundle said, beautifully this year.

#18365 spacekid

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 11:42

Okay wrong choice of word..instead of team-player I think I would just say..never was fair to his teammates in terms of who gets preferencial treatment. Anyway, it's just my personal opinion..


F1 isn't a charity.

If Rubens, for example, had wanted #1 status he needed to force his way to get it by being consistlently faster, and showing the team why he deserved it. Its not good just whining all the time if the other guy happens to be better.

Schumi has always been a team player throughout his career in terms of working hard to get the best from the team.

Out of interest whats your view on Malaysia '99 if he was never fair to his team mates?

#18366 MightyMoose

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 11:50

I see the ratings genius has failed miserably again to hide his apparent blatant dislike of MS in his race ratings section.

Just can't see how MS can be rated only a 6 for the weekend, which puts him equal lowest of the field!!!!! If NR was great - which he was - and clearly deserved a 10, I'd say MS is probably an 8, 7 if you really want to be harsh. If your team-mate is dominating... and you're 2nd and not holding up the McLarens either, then the team screws you over I wonder what else you're accountable for? He was of course, slower than NR, but then in Malaysia he was a similar amount faster..... there wasn't a 4 point gap in that rating!

However, given some of the silliness in the rating & reasoning this season & last, I can't say I'm surprised, disappointed that a journalist seems to be incapable of hiding bias, but not surprised.

Guess that's why it's all subjective!

#18367 4MEN

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 11:56

Yup. And it's good to see that he's now very much of a team-player unlike during Ferrari days and it's good to see him cheer for Rosberg from pitwall.


Leaving the circuit early would be more embarrassing for him :rolleyes:

#18368 Lelouch

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 12:08

I see the ratings genius has failed miserably again to hide his apparent blatant dislike of MS in his race ratings section.

Just can't see how MS can be rated only a 6 for the weekend, which puts him equal lowest of the field!!!!! If NR was great - which he was - and clearly deserved a 10, I'd say MS is probably an 8, 7 if you really want to be harsh. If your team-mate is dominating... and you're 2nd and not holding up the McLarens either, then the team screws you over I wonder what else you're accountable for? He was of course, slower than NR, but then in Malaysia he was a similar amount faster..... there wasn't a 4 point gap in that rating!

However, given some of the silliness in the rating & reasoning this season & last, I can't say I'm surprised, disappointed that a journalist seems to be incapable of hiding bias, but not surprised.

Guess that's why it's all subjective!

Yes that's pretty much what i wrote at the ratings thread too. If he had finished 2nd let's say 20-25 secs behind Nico an 8 would be fine. At the time of his retirement a 7 would be reasonable due to the gap to Nico but a 6 is ridiculous. He has gotten 8,6,6 imo 7,8,7 would have been more appropriate imo or maybe 8,8,7. And tbh in the first 2 weekends he managed to do exactly what the car could do (in Melbourne he was doing fine till the retirement). The only thing i didn't like at Malaysia was his start and the 10th place that's why i give him a 8. Overall i think his performance are around 7.5 and that's just due to what i saw till his retirement in China which was not great. I hope wins are coming soon to justify everything he has done at least this year. :-)

#18369 MightyMoose

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 12:17

Yes that's pretty much what i wrote at the ratings thread too. If he had finished 2nd let's say 20-25 secs behind Nico an 8 would be fine. At the time of his retirement a 7 would be reasonable due to the gap to Nico but a 6 is ridiculous. He has gotten 8,6,6 imo 7,8,7 would have been more appropriate imo or maybe 8,8,7. And tbh in the first 2 weekends he managed to do exactly what the car could do (in Melbourne he was doing fine till the retirement). The only thing i didn't like at Malaysia was his start and the 10th place that's why i give him a 8. Overall i think his performance are around 7.5 and that's just due to what i saw till his retirement in China which was not great. I hope wins are coming soon to justify everything he has done at least this year. :-)

Yeah I just wrote a reply in the ratings thread, highlighting the JB vs MS scandal from Malaysia.... worth reading that quote alone if only to see the obvious connotations you can draw from it.

I agree, 8,7,7 sounds fair, and NR would probably be 7,4,10.... making it a 1 point gap in MS favor... can't say that retiring twice from 3rd place & being shoved into a spin on lap 1 is symbolic of a lucky start to the season!

#18370 Lelouch

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 12:26

Yeah I just wrote a reply in the ratings thread, highlighting the JB vs MS scandal from Malaysia.... worth reading that quote alone if only to see the obvious connotations you can draw from it.

I agree, 8,7,7 sounds fair, and NR would probably be 7,4,10.... making it a 1 point gap in MS favor... can't say that retiring twice from 3rd place & being shoved into a spin on lap 1 is symbolic of a lucky start to the season!

Yep, Autosport's Malaysia ratings were more like trolling tbh. :p
I would give him 8 in Malaysia because i liked his Q3 lap more and i think he achieved the best result possible.
And altough it's OT i think a 4 for NR would be a bit too harsh he didn't do well indeed but his 1 more stop was unreasonable it could have been Schumy in his place because they didn't really know what was going on with the tyres. Still he was slower in general so 5 or 6 would be fine for me and a tie overall just because NR was phenomenal in China. Still, i think Schumy can win the inside battle this year.

#18371 jbarokF1

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 16:51

F1 isn't a charity.

If Rubens, for example, had wanted #1 status he needed to force his way to get it by being consistlently faster, and showing the team why he deserved it. Its not good just whining all the time if the other guy happens to be better.

Schumi has always been a team player throughout his career in terms of working hard to get the best from the team.

Out of interest whats your view on Malaysia '99 if he was never fair to his team mates?


Before I tell my view..I'll ask you first about Austria 2001 and that is just one. Anyway, sorry mate..am not here to argue about this. Nevertheless, Schumi is one of the best if not the best, no doubt about it (even am not a Schumi fan) so am not here to criticize Schumi. What I am just saying is that Schumi is not one of most fair among the drivers.

#18372 MightyMoose

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 17:11

Before I tell my view..I'll ask you first about Austria 2001 and that is just one. Anyway, sorry mate..am not here to argue about this. Nevertheless, Schumi is one of the best if not the best, no doubt about it (even am not a Schumi fan) so am not here to criticize Schumi. What I am just saying is that Schumi is not one of most fair among the drivers.

Well to be fair Austria 2001 is nothing compared to Austria 2002. However for all the anger, which was justified fully by the way, you can't ignore some important additions to that fact.

Ferrari - namely Todt, made the call to enforce the contractual rule. Rubens decided to follow it at the last possible moment. I have little doubt that the reception at the podium ceremony made MS deeply uncomfortable.

In return, MS gave at least 1 - INDY, and possibly 3, Hungary, Italy, wins to RB in order to ensure he finished 2nd in the championship. These seem to be regularly forgotten by Rubens when he embarks on one of his whinefests about how badly he was treated at Ferrari.

I think your choice of the word "fair" is perhaps incorrect in regards to this matter. Perhaps it's lost in translation.

MS is probably not the best team-mate to have, because he will force you to go to immense lengths just to keep up with him in terms of team work, relationship building, understanding the car and working together to get it improved. You can't possibly hope to be considered as #1 in the team if you don't match that commitment. But there is also a reason why the Ferrari & now MERC teams respect him so much - and that's probably related to his refusal to throw them under the bus (at least in public, I wouldn't blame him if in the motorhome he was more than a little pissed over some of the cock-ups).

But, there have been many worse team-mates who have shown agreements mean nothing. Some of them even now are still considered great drivers.

#18373 Hacklerf

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 10:04

This is the guy Autosport employs, should there be anything to write about Schumacher

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#18374 Sakae

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 11:04

This has been done to death. Does it in our historyhave to be dragged up every couple of pages on this thread?

Damon himself said a long time ago he should not have gone for that gap as it was always dissapearing. Damon also appears to have gotten over it - maybe you could try doing the same?

Excellent summation. Gladiator's racing style and track etiquette of that (fresh post-Senna) era is long time gone, and judged differently today. That's part of evolution, and hardly black and white patch.

#18375 Sakae

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 11:14

;) he is a very good diplomate! Sure inside he was very very angry not to be in Nicos place!

Sign of a champion to strive only for very best. Anyone being happy with anything but P1 in this series probably should seek employment elsewhere.

#18376 Sakae

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 11:18

Ferrari - namely Todt, made the call to enforce the contractual rule.

Really? I thought that there is difference between explicit contract, and team's variable strategy for the season as it develops.


#18377 merschu

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 17:02

Michael Schumacher and Sebastian Vettel were skydiving in Dubai today. :)

TNT Brothers
Michael Schumacher is one of us.... SKYDIVER. He jumped in Dubai with our load organizer form Bucharest Skydiving... http://fb.me/149IcUIKB

https://twitter.com/#!/TNTBrothers/stat...616313867341826


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#18378 hammibal

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 17:58

I think if we had Sunday warm up session, then MS could go for qualifying without having to worry about race set up too much.

And generallly I think qualifying needs to be kept separate from the race, but because you can't touch the car after qualifying, these cars are not really being pushed by everyone the same way on qualifying day, unless you have a car that can do everything reasonable well, but not everyone has that.

I kinda wish the FIA gave Sunday warm up another life again, we don't need to create more lottery, we need less of it because we have fast drivers and teams.

If Shumacher set his car up for the race why was Rosberg quicker?

That's what i was thinking, Schumacher usually drops back from Ros - then pulls back hard and when they were that close - beats him. Schumacher would have stayed on a 3 stopper, with a high chance of win.

It doesnt make much sense to drive more slowly than you could have gone causing you to lose track position

Edited by hammibal, 18 April 2012 - 17:59.


#18379 Schumacher7

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 18:08

If Schumacher set his car up for the race why was Rosberg quicker?


It doesnt make much sense to drive more slowly than you could have gone causing you to lose track position

Rosberg was quicker because he's a better driver around Shanghai, it's one of his best circuits and one of Schumacher's worst.
He also didn't say Schumacher was driving slower than he could have gone, there was just a trend last season when Schumacher would fall back a bit on higher fuel and then as the levels came down catch back up.
But then you're just trying to bait people aren't you?  ;)

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#18380 Sakae

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 19:03

Michael Schumacher and Sebastian Vettel were skydiving in Dubai today. :)



Posted Image


I was going to pass on this, but considering my history with Kubica's off-season racing, I feel obliged to voice my disapproval here as well. Especially on part of Sebastian,who is on treshold of his career in F1. Just plain irresponsible.


__________

I have behind me 13 jumps, and last one really didn't end up well. I am fully recovered, but experience and bad memory stayed with me, how a lot of fun could end up in disaster in fraction of a second.

#18381 hammibal

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 19:07

Rosberg was quicker because he's a better driver around Shanghai, it's one of his best circuits and one of Schumacher's worst.
He also didn't say Schumacher was driving slower than he could have gone, there was just a trend last season when Schumacher would fall back a bit on higher fuel and then as the levels came down catch back up.
But then you're just trying to bait people aren't you?  ;)

Yes i understand that but thats in the cycle of the tyres but Schumacher never came back at Rosberg towards the end of his stint.

Is it wrong to question the view of some that Schumacher could have beat Rosberg inspite of his obvious lack of pace in his first stint?

#18382 Goron3

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 19:07

If Shumacher set his car up for the race why was Rosberg quicker?


If Rosberg set his car up to get more out of his tyres, this would still make him faster in the race as well as in qualy. As Andrew Benson mentions in his blog, schumacher was slightly more conservative on set up as tyre wear in the race was still unknown.

#18383 4MEN

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 19:07

I have behind me 13 jumps, and last one really didn't end up well. I am fully recovered, but experience and bad memory stayed with me, how a lot of fun could end up in disaster in fraction of a second.


What happened? I did it once (not alone) and didn't seem dangerous.

#18384 hammibal

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 19:11

If Rosberg set his car up to get more out of his tyres, this would still make him faster in the race as well as in qualy. As Andrew Benson mentions in his blog, schumacher was slightly more conservative on set up as tyre wear in the race was still unknown.

Cheers

What happened? I did it once (not alone) and didn't seem dangerous.

Sometimes the parachutes dont open properly, it happened to a friends father who was an avid jumper, obviously with tragic consequences

Edited by hammibal, 18 April 2012 - 19:12.


#18385 Diablobb81

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 19:15

Yes i understand that but thats in the cycle of the tyres but Schumacher never came back at Rosberg towards the end of his stint.

Is it wrong to question the view of some that Schumacher could have beat Rosberg inspite of his obvious lack of pace in his first stint?


While i do believe that Rosberg would have been untouchable this race, we don't know how Michael's setup would have worked on different tires and lower fuel.

#18386 Sakae

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 19:20

What happened? I did it once (not alone) and didn't seem dangerous.


Thanks for asking, but it's OT. Just briefly, during paramillitary excercise I went last one out under really bad conditions and low light, and ended up with three bad landing choices; swamp/grassy foundation and possibility breaking both my legs if stucked in the mud, or hitting very tall building and falling off with my chute between my legs, or choosing to land in a repair lot full of strip down aircraft bodies. I choose the last one, but on impact my chute tossed me against the aircraft with my back. I am Ok today. (Chute was of small size, and descending velocity quite a lot). My last jump. :)

Edited by Sakae, 18 April 2012 - 19:40.


#18387 ivand911

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 19:23

Yes i understand that but thats in the cycle of the tyres but Schumacher never came back at Rosberg towards the end of his stint.
Is it wrong to question the view of some that Schumacher could have beat Rosberg inspite of his obvious lack of pace in his first stint?

What is the point to think what could have happen. Yes, last year MS have some slow first stints and manage to catch Nico. Example India after the first pitstop MS was 6 sec behind , in the end he finish ahead of Nico. Is this what are looking for? Yes, it could happen. We didn't saw medium tyre stints. 5sec is not so big time advantage, it could be easily nullified.


#18388 Schumacher7

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 21:18

Yes i understand that but thats in the cycle of the tyres but Schumacher never came back at Rosberg towards the end of his stint.

Is it wrong to question the view of some that Schumacher could have beat Rosberg inspite of his obvious lack of pace in his first stint?

Not at the end of the first stint, in later stints. But I doubt that would have happened on Sunday, would have probably been on the podium though.

#18389 hammibal

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Posted 19 April 2012 - 01:21

What is the point to think what could have happen. Yes, last year MS have some slow first stints and manage to catch Nico. Example India after the first pitstop MS was 6 sec behind , in the end he finish ahead of Nico. Is this what are looking for? Yes, it could happen. We didn't saw medium tyre stints. 5sec is not so big time advantage, it could be easily nullified.

Yes but wasnt that often because of Schumachers poor grid position, the last race he had no cars between him and Rosberg but Rosberg drove away

#18390 Sakae

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Posted 19 April 2012 - 01:27

Yes but wasnt that often because of Schumachers poor grid position, the last race he had no cars between him and Rosberg but Rosberg drove away

There could be numerous explantions for it, ranging from Rosberg is a faster driver in that team, to different strategies, tactics, set up, unspoken issue; list is long.

#18391 Pamphlet

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Posted 19 April 2012 - 01:33

Whilst Schumacher v2.0 is known to be much better than his teammate in the final stints, I highly doubt he would've stopped Nico from winning, or even Button from stealing P2. China is a poor track for him and his teammate's best one, and even then Button would've apparently beaten Rosberg by 2 seconds without that failed stop. Although I'm not sure if I can trust Jake on that...

Edited by Pamphlet, 19 April 2012 - 01:33.


#18392 Raelene

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Posted 19 April 2012 - 03:25

Really? I thought that there is difference between explicit contract, and team's variable strategy for the season as it develops.


evey driver has a contract that states they follow team instruction... like most of us with our employment contract



#18393 ivand911

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Posted 19 April 2012 - 06:34

Whilst Schumacher v2.0 is known to be much better than his teammate in the final stints, I highly doubt he would've stopped Nico from winning, or even Button from stealing P2. China is a poor track for him and his teammate's best one, and even then Button would've apparently beaten Rosberg by 2 seconds without that failed stop. Although I'm not sure if I can trust Jake on that...

I am not saying that MS would beaten Nico for sure, just we saw only small part of the race with him. 5 sec are not the end of the world. Button didn't catch Michael, so he didn't have any chance to catch Nico too. 14-15sec difference with 16 laps left. Not chance at all. Do you think Nico will stay and wait for him? Even if he somehow manage to catch him, how many laps he will need to overtake?


#18394 Augurk

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Posted 19 April 2012 - 07:08

Come on guys. Rosberg won the race. The merc is a race winner! This is a time for celebration and not for pointless discussion. It was Rosbergs weekend definitely, be it because of setup or sheer brilliance. All we know is Michael was doing fine until his unfortunate retirement, which was out if his control. Let's just hope Michael gets his chance too.

#18395 libano

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Posted 19 April 2012 - 07:39

Come on guys. Rosberg won the race. The merc is a race winner! This is a time for celebration and not for pointless discussion. It was Rosbergs weekend definitely, be it because of setup or sheer brilliance. All we know is Michael was doing fine until his unfortunate retirement, which was out if his control. Let's just hope Michael gets his chance too.


exactly. this is getting tiresome. let's look forward, there's an exciting weekend ahead.

#18396 Diablobb81

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Posted 19 April 2012 - 08:03

Looking forward : all i want is the same i wanted for the last two races - an incident free race. The bad luck has to stop sometime.

#18397 Juan Kerr

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Posted 19 April 2012 - 08:08

The bad luck doesn't matter, all that means is Michael might not be a contender for the championship if it carried on but the car itself can give him a few wins regardless.

#18398 ivand911

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Posted 19 April 2012 - 08:10

Looking forward : all i want is the same i wanted for the last two races - an incident free race. The bad luck has to stop sometime.

MS didn't lost FW for some time now? :p


#18399 george1981

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Posted 19 April 2012 - 08:22

While i do believe that Rosberg would have been untouchable this race, we don't know how Michael's setup would have worked on different tires and lower fuel.


Presumably if MS could have stayed near Nico until the last stop and not been caught in traffic like Button was after his slow stop MS might have had fresher tyres to be able to attack Nico towards the end. This scenario is incredibly speculative and had it happened Mercedes would have ordered their drivers to hold station.

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#18400 Augurk

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Posted 19 April 2012 - 09:08

MS didn't lost FW for some time now? :p

Don't say things like that! It invokes Murphy :drunk: