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#18851 MightyMoose

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Posted 25 April 2012 - 04:49

Isn't it artificial when Schumi's teammates have to move aside to let him win? He was not complaining then..and now he's complaining about racing being artificial because of the tyres.

As you wish to push this button, lets play your game for just a minute.

How many times was Schumacher handed a win - a win, not a place, a win (Your choice of word, not mine). I can only think of 1, the infamous Austrian GP in 2002.

Now how many did Schumacher hand to his team-mates, immediately I know of 2. Malaysia 1999, Indy 2002. We can also argue a couple of others if you choose.

Furthermore, how many races was Eddie Irvine gifted in 1999? That's right 2. 50% of Irvine's F1 career wins were gifts by his team-mates!

Now you can talk about team orders all you like, you can moan about spec tyres, or favored treatment but you can't sit there and make an ill-judged, inaccurate post and expect a round of applause.

Oh, and I echo the previous poster in regard to your diatribe on Indy 2005. You clearly do not know the full, accurate story behind that race, I suggest you go & read up not only on that race, but that season to gain a proper perspective on the events.

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#18852 Raelene

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Posted 25 April 2012 - 04:52

It's the same for everybody so what is the problem..It does not favour anyone, does it?

It's the same thing as having a slow car where it does not enable you to push to the limit.


MSC himself has said it's the same for everyone

you didn't get his point...his point was not driving a car as fast as one can...isn't what he and many others "sign up" for when they become racing drivers...

and your anaology does not work - a slow car can still be pushed to the limits.... it's limits

Edited by Raelene, 25 April 2012 - 04:53.


#18853 jjpm

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Posted 25 April 2012 - 06:37

MS is right but who's granny is it?
Brundle : ..."On the journey home I was talking with two F1 drivers, a world champion and a multiple race winner, and they had very similar concerns to Michael in that they can't push the cars anywhere near their limits. 'Physically my granny could drive the race' quipped one to underline how far away from the limits they are."...

http://www1.skysport...ions-On-Bahrain

Edited by jjpm, 25 April 2012 - 06:38.


#18854 ivand911

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Posted 25 April 2012 - 06:44

MS is right but who's granny is it?
Brundle : ..."On the journey home I was talking with two F1 drivers, a world champion and a multiple race winner, and they had very similar concerns to Michael in that they can't push the cars anywhere near their limits. 'Physically my granny could drive the race' quipped one to underline how far away from the limits they are."...

http://www1.skysport...ions-On-Bahrain

Then there is chance for me in F1, if his granny(whoever he is) can drive the car. :clap: Finally. Index finger is taken ,so my victory sign will be the middle finger.

Edited by ivand911, 25 April 2012 - 06:46.


#18855 spacekid

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Posted 25 April 2012 - 11:29

:up: :up: :up:

MS and his fans has forgotten Indianapolis (US) Grand Prix (2005 or 2006? can't remember) where all Michelin cars refused to race due to safety reason and were demanding to put a chicane on the last turn banking. But Schumi knowing that he's got the advantage there and that his Michelin rivals cannot afford to drive up to their limit on that banking refused to join the Michelin driver to put a chicane.

And now he's complaining because he cannot push to the limit due to his tyre???????


What utter garbage.

#18856 spacekid

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Posted 25 April 2012 - 11:30

MS is right but who's granny is it?
Brundle : ..."On the journey home I was talking with two F1 drivers, a world champion and a multiple race winner, and they had very similar concerns to Michael in that they can't push the cars anywhere near their limits. 'Physically my granny could drive the race' quipped one to underline how far away from the limits they are."...

http://www1.skysport...ions-On-Bahrain


I'd put money on that being Mark Webber. I hope more drivers like Mark raise their voice if the drivers aren't able to push at Barcelona.

#18857 Ferrari_F1_fan_2001

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Posted 25 April 2012 - 11:33

Isn't it artificial when Schumi's teammates have to move aside to let him win? He was not complaining then..and now he's complaining about racing being artificial because of the tyres.


Are you still crying about Austria 2002?

See Indianapolis 2002.....



You become defacto #1 for a reason; Schumacher worked harder than all his team mates, did more testing (see winter 2005/2006 for instance), spent more time away from his family and built up a better rapport with his team and engineers. You think it was just written into the contract? He whooped ass in career #1 and got the team behind him for that reason. Irvine was too busy screwing models and Barrichello broke down mentally. They were not leaders.

#18858 Goron3

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Posted 25 April 2012 - 11:49

jbarokF1, can you please stop posting rubbish onto this thread? Fair enough you're anti schumacher but don't let it seep through into your posts, they make no sense whatsoever. If you can't understand the issue that the drivers are referring to as well as being able to discuss it rationally, don't bother posting.

Anyway, Schumacher is having such rotten luck so far this season :( It reminds me of 2000 when he had three retirements in a row and Mika started clawing points back to him!

Edited by Goron3, 25 April 2012 - 11:52.


#18859 George Costanza

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Posted 26 April 2012 - 02:10

jbarokF1, can you please stop posting rubbish onto this thread? Fair enough you're anti schumacher but don't let it seep through into your posts, they make no sense whatsoever. If you can't understand the issue that the drivers are referring to as well as being able to discuss it rationally, don't bother posting.

Anyway, Schumacher is having such rotten luck so far this season :( It reminds me of 2000 when he had three retirements in a row and Mika started clawing points back to him!



Yes, it does remind me of 2000 as well, but the Mercedes simply is not on the level of the Ferrari of 2000 or Schu himself isn't that level anymore.

2000 Schumacher was, perhaps, the very best.

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#18860 CoolBreeze

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Posted 26 April 2012 - 08:08

:up: :up: :up:

MS and his fans has forgotten Indianapolis (US) Grand Prix (2005 or 2006? can't remember) where all Michelin cars refused to race due to safety reason and were demanding to put a chicane on the last turn banking. But Schumi knowing that he's got the advantage there and that his Michelin rivals cannot afford to drive up to their limit on that banking refused to join the Michelin driver to put a chicane.

And now he's complaining because he cannot push to the limit due to his tyre???????


What the heck does that got to do with him complaining he can't push 100% in Bahrain?

It was Michelin's fault in 2005 that their tyres weren't just safe enough. It wasn't MS's fault. Period.

#18861 pUs

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Posted 26 April 2012 - 08:11

It's the same for everybody so what is the problem..It does not favour anyone, does it?

It's the same thing as having a slow car where it does not enable you to push to the limit.


Yes, it's the same for everyone - which, unfortunately, means that nobody can push to the limit at any time in the race. That's part of the problem, but even more so the fact that the tires have a too slim operating window. Just because it's the same for everybody doesn't mean it's good.

Edited by pUs, 26 April 2012 - 08:11.


#18862 CoolBreeze

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Posted 26 April 2012 - 08:12

Isn't it artificial when Schumi's teammates have to move aside to let him win? He was not complaining then..and now he's complaining about racing being artificial because of the tyres.



ermmm.... I can't remember when MS actually had a teammate faster than him, so fast that he asked the team to tell that teammate to move aside so he can inherit the win.

Please do enlighten me on this one.

I think pretty much everyone disagree with your comments.

Edited by CoolBreeze, 26 April 2012 - 08:12.


#18863 black magic

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Posted 26 April 2012 - 08:26

when a 43 yr old is complaining that he's only using 60 - 70% of his physical capacity to drive supposedly the fsatest of all racing cars then only those who choose not cannot see there is a major problem.

any **** would also recognise the lottery these tyres are throwing up is clearly artificial. one week vettel struggles tio be top ten next he drives away. lotus 4th team to next race arguably the top team.

its not as if one team is frankly demonstrating it has any more clues than another at the moment.

whilst tyre management always an issue, these seem to stop working so suddenly that making a mockery of any form.

is it good to have multiple winners - sure - but not by this means.



#18864 pUs

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Posted 26 April 2012 - 08:32

when a 43 yr old is complaining that he's only using 60 - 70% of his physical capacity to drive supposedly the fsatest of all racing cars then only those who choose not cannot see there is a major problem.

any **** would also recognise the lottery these tyres are throwing up is clearly artificial. one week vettel struggles tio be top ten next he drives away. lotus 4th team to next race arguably the top team.

its not as if one team is frankly demonstrating it has any more clues than another at the moment.

whilst tyre management always an issue, these seem to stop working so suddenly that making a mockery of any form.

is it good to have multiple winners - sure - but not by this means.


Totally agree :up:

#18865 skid solo

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Posted 26 April 2012 - 12:09

Isn't it artificial when Schumi's teammates have to move aside to let him win? He was not complaining then..and now he's complaining about racing being artificial because of the tyres.


You're missing the point completely either because you wish to be deliberately obtuse or because you don't understand it

#18866 skid solo

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Posted 26 April 2012 - 12:13

when a 43 yr old is complaining that he's only using 60 - 70% of his physical capacity to drive supposedly the fsatest of all racing cars then only those who choose not cannot see there is a major problem.

any **** would also recognise the lottery these tyres are throwing up is clearly artificial. one week vettel struggles tio be top ten next he drives away. lotus 4th team to next race arguably the top team.

its not as if one team is frankly demonstrating it has any more clues than another at the moment.

whilst tyre management always an issue, these seem to stop working so suddenly that making a mockery of any form.

is it good to have multiple winners - sure - but not by this means.


Yes why bother going to the Gym and doing all that training?
Why bother investing millions in having a chief designer such as Newey?
Why bother having a top drawer driver?

If a Sauber can outpace a Mclaren driven by Hamilton and hustle a Ferrari driven by Alonso then something is up and it hasn't got anything to do with Lewis, Fernando, Ferrari or Mclaren

#18867 schubacca

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Posted 26 April 2012 - 13:52

I think that those that have watched F1 for ages and understand the beauty that driving on the limit represents would tend to agree with MS.

F1 has become lazy driving. Indycar and NASCAR drivers, among others, state how there are portions of a race in which they are not on the limit.

The beauty of a driver like MS delivering 15 qualifying laps in a race is gone now.

So we wont see a FA, SV, LH, or JB pull off a sequence like that. Instead we will hear engineers tell their charges to conserve their tyres or suffer a fate of Kimi Raikonen in China.

And we ALL know how Kimi is over the hill and cannot handle a F1 car!!! ;)

#18868 654321

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Posted 26 April 2012 - 14:40

Omg,so many haters on here,with so little brain

here is my 2cents: True ,2012 Pirelli tyres have been the reason racing's been exciting thus far,but its only due to the confusion and chaos this redicilously inconsistent tyre delivers.

P.Humphrey is going around drumming his chest and being proud but the bottom line is ,Pirreli have made a tyre that doesnt produce great racing,just simply chaos....a massively unstable tyre that degrades like something cheap they sell at Wal-Mart....i dont see whats so incredible about it,if even the engeniers cant figure out how to control it(after 4races)! Michael is not only spot on,he is his brilliant self as usual,speaking when he has to,critisizing when he must to

watch,learn and stfu if u aint got a clue


edit: Teams are getting all messed up and confused trying to understand this tyre,but the fact is ,there is nothing to understand: 2012 Pirrelis have been made to be garbage!!!Instead of worrying about performance,Teams just need to treat like a garbage tyre!. Dont Qualify,safe all tyres for the race and then beat the crap out of every single set u got and have 10pitstops and it is possible you wont be too far back from the ones that Q'ed and tried to protect them

If MSC can start in 22nd and finish in 10th only 15sec off his teammate who started in 5th,just goes to show the kinda of a laugh this tyres are,

Edited by 654321, 26 April 2012 - 15:10.


#18869 zelpre

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 11:29

Michael was at the DTM Race yesterday, at Hockenheim. Was entertaining the crowd before the race, with driving the W02 and doing some burnouts.
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#18870 RayInTorontoCanada

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 17:59

Schuey prefers the old ways when Bridgestone's main team was Ferrari and, as a result, he had tailor-made tyres to his liking and designed around his style.

I mean while Michelin had to worry about McLaren, Williams and Renault - and, thus, couldn't cater to any one team - Bridgestone's 'second' team was BAR...so it was very easy to focus on Ferrari and, more specifically, on their Number 1 driver. Barrichello's needs were an afterthought - and why not?!?! :)

Add to that unlimited testing at Fiorano and Mugello - testing that only Marlboro money could buy in such quanitity - and you had Schumacher being a very happy bunny indeed. :cat:

So, of course, he hates it now. :cry:

No tailor made tyres that he can test at whim. No un-even playing field where the dice were loaded firmly in his favour. :cry:

Now all he has is a level playing field where there's much closer competition (including driving competition that's superior to JV, Damon, Juan Pablo and DC) and he has the same thing as EVERYONE else! And...look at where he is without all those advantages... :down:

Cry me a river, Michael! :D


:wave:

Edited by RayInTorontoCanada, 30 April 2012 - 18:08.


#18871 Atonal

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 18:25

Schuey prefers the old ways when Bridgestone's main team was Ferrari and, as a result, he had tailor-made tyres to his liking and designed around his style.

I mean while Michelin had to worry about McLaren, Williams and Renault - and, thus, couldn't cater to any one team - Bridgestone's 'second' team was BAR...so it was very easy to focus on Ferrari and, more specifically, on their Number 1 driver. Barrichello's needs were an afterthought - and why not?!?! :)

Add to that unlimited testing at Fiorano and Mugello - testing that only Marlboro money could buy in such quanitity - and you had Schumacher being a very happy bunny indeed. :cat:

So, of course, he hates it now. :cry:

No tailor made tyres that he can test at whim. No un-even playing field where the dice were loaded firmly in his favour. :cry:

Now all he has is a level playing field where there's much closer competition (including driving competition that's superior to JV, Damon, Juan Pablo and DC) and he has the same thing as EVERYONE else! And...look at where he is without all those advantages... :down:

Cry me a river, Michael! :D


:wave:


This is one great post, now I am finally convinced. Schumacher is the biggest con man in motorsports history, everything he has done is illegal and mala fide. Its amazing how he held the F1 world at gun point for more than 20 years in order to provide him with such cheap advantages and continues to do so till this day. Thank you Ray, thank you!

#18872 sharo

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 18:28

This is one great post, now I am finally convinced. Schumacher is the biggest con man in motorsports history, everything he has done is illegal and mala fide. Its amazing how he held the F1 world at gun point for more than 20 years in order to provide him with such cheap advantages and continues to do so till this day. Thank you Ray, thank you!

+1 :clap:
May I copy your answer to the other thread where our friend copy/pasted his eternal wisdom? :)

#18873 MightyMoose

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 18:44

Another totally one-sided post against the so-called advantages MS had throughout his Ferrari years, neatly negating the Benetton era, the battles vs McLaren & the late decision by the FIA to make tyres last the entire race in 2005.

Nothing like cherry-picking to suit your agenda is there?

As for where he is, he still appears to be a 43 yr old running his reasonably well-regarded teammate very close with little doubt that but for bad luck he'd be far higher in the standings this season.

To imagine the possibilities could we port a 95/96 era MS into this field....... oh what a debate we'd have then!

I'm certain you're capable of more than a pro-Lewis stance, anti-MS stance.... yet the frequency & content of the posts offered up do little to offset that nagging feeling you're not here for sensible debate.

#18874 RayInTorontoCanada

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 19:41

Another totally one-sided post against the so-called advantages MS had throughout his Ferrari years, neatly negating the Benetton era, the battles vs McLaren & the late decision by the FIA to make tyres last the entire race in 2005.

Nothing like cherry-picking to suit your agenda is there?

As for where he is, he still appears to be a 43 yr old running his reasonably well-regarded teammate very close with little doubt that but for bad luck he'd be far higher in the standings this season.

To imagine the possibilities could we port a 95/96 era MS into this field....... oh what a debate we'd have then!

I'm certain you're capable of more than a pro-Lewis stance, anti-MS stance.... yet the frequency & content of the posts offered up do little to offset that nagging feeling you're not here for sensible debate.


I'm a supporter of Vettel, Raikkonen...not just Hamilton.

I prefer competition ... as opposed to the stifling of competition that occured during the years when the FIA provided Ferrari with a technical veto (as confirmed by Max Mosely already).

Obviously I'm in the wrong thread. Obviously, too, some think Schumacher is a god or something. I don't.

Shame that only Hakkinen was around after Senna was killed at Imola. Shame too that there were only Number 2s around until the arrival of Alonso and Raikkonen in competitive cars in 2003-2005. And if they ever got close, the FIA would try and pull the rug out from under their feet (2003 Michelin debacle at Monza; Renault Mass damper; Alonso getting a penalty at Monza for "blocking" Massa in qually in 2006)

I suppose the Schuey thread here is for deification only and no criticism need be welcomed.

Edited by RayInTorontoCanada, 30 April 2012 - 19:46.


#18875 PretentiousBread

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 20:03

Biggest con man. Yea sure. What ever makes all you haters feel better about 7 world championships won. To say he is a con man is a big insult. You dont con your way to 7 world titles weather you like it or not. The man was once the best in the world.


I'm pretty sure atonal was being sarcastic.

#18876 Sakae

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 20:03

Criticism is expected, however borderline defamatory statements could be tolerated in small amounts, a point which I think we have past several pages back.

#18877 Massa_f1

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 20:06

I'm pretty sure atonal was being sarcastic.


Indeed he was. It is very hard to tell on this thread sometimes. Post deleted.

#18878 Afterburner

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 20:08

I suppose the Schuey thread here is for deification only and no criticism need be welcomed.

Criticism is more than welcome--you can't expect everyone to agree with it, though. Generally, people are much more likely to consider your opinion, positive or negative, if you attempt to be objective about it. :)

#18879 MightyMoose

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 20:22

I'm a supporter of Vettel, Raikkonen...not just Hamilton.

I prefer competition ... as opposed to the stifling of competition that occured during the years when the FIA provided Ferrari with a technical veto (as confirmed by Max Mosely already).

Obviously I'm in the wrong thread. Obviously, too, some think Schumacher is a god or something. I don't.

Shame that only Hakkinen was around after Senna was killed at Imola. Shame too that there were only Number 2s around until the arrival of Alonso and Raikkonen in competitive cars in 2003-2005. And if they ever got close, the FIA would try and pull the rug out from under their feet (2003 Michelin debacle at Monza; Renault Mass damper; Alonso getting a penalty at Monza for "blocking" Massa in qually in 2006)

I suppose the Schuey thread here is for deification only and no criticism need be welcomed.


Now now, you know your original post was entirely myopic, based 100% on 1 side of the story with zero credit given to MS & Ferrari for all they achieved. Sure, some may not like the perception of how that success was obtained, but if you were truly interested in having a debate, you'd look at both sides rather than putting just the facts guaranteed to be seen as incendiary. Some, if not all of your points are valid, though they could and should be phrased differently, but it's not the whole story and that is what will leave a bad taste in the mouth. You posted something that could have had merit & turned it entirely into a bash-fest. Then have the temerity to complain & whine when you're pulled up on it!

Of course there are some who see MS as a god - as people have said, they get told to calm it down as well because their approach brings little to any of the threads involving MS either.

You took the opportunity to send in more digs though didn't you? Again, not interested in a debate over fair points, just your own dislike on how the seasons panned out.

As you like competition so much, surely you must love this year, 4 different winners in 4 different cars, no guarantee which team will be quickest 1 day to the next...... Life is full of contradictions isn't it.

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#18880 Menace

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 20:33

As you like competition so much, surely you must love this year, 4 different winners in 4 different cars, no guarantee which team will be quickest 1 day to the next...... Life is full of contradictions isn't it.


A quick look at the whining thread would have told you he thinks this season is better then any of the years from 01'-04'.

#18881 RayInTorontoCanada

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 22:44

As you like competition so much, surely you must love this year, 4 different winners in 4 different cars, no guarantee which team will be quickest 1 day to the next...... Life is full of contradictions isn't it.


Yes. I do love this season...check out my post in the thread about Rosberg saying F1 is a different sport now!

Here:

I have been watching F1 religiously since 1981 (with memories from my boyhood of 1979 and 1980) and I HATED 2001 - 2004.

I HATED it!

It's the worst Formula One I ever watched. Didn't even go to the Canadian Grand Prix those years!

I love it now. Again. And I don't have a problem paying for flight, hotel, tickets and food when Montreal arrives on the calendar. :up:

Good riddence to the shit processions we used to have 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 years ago. May they NEVER come back!!!



No contradiction, i'm afraid!

Regardless, I actually apologize for trashing Schuey's Bridgestone years in this thread.

I'm sorry if I offended all his fans here.

I won't do it again!

:kiss:

Edited by RayInTorontoCanada, 30 April 2012 - 22:49.


#18882 baddog

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 23:18

Michael fans are very happy this year.. he is outperforming Nico clearly overall, whatever happenstance may have given Nico in terms of points advantage. We shall see how the rest of the year goes, but its looking good.

ps: Gods this quiet patch has brought them out of the woodwork has it not?

#18883 jj2728

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 23:48

Michael fans are very happy this year.. he is outperforming Nico clearly overall, whatever happenstance may have given Nico in terms of points advantage. We shall see how the rest of the year goes, but its looking good.


I don't agree that he is outperforming Nico overall nor that happenstance has given Rosberg a points advantage. Noone can deny that Schumacher has had a run of bad luck that's bound to change, but I think your selling Nico short. He's driven pretty well so far this season. Anyhow, it will clearly be interesting to see how the rest of the season plays out.

#18884 LiJu914

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Posted 01 May 2012 - 00:18

I don't agree that he is outperforming Nico overall nor that happenstance has given Rosberg a points advantage. Noone can deny that Schumacher has had a run of bad luck that's bound to change, but I think your selling Nico short. He's driven pretty well so far this season. Anyhow, it will clearly be interesting to see how the rest of the season plays out.


Indeed. And in fact even without MSC´s bad luck Nico would most likely be ahead in points as he was better when there was the most to gain (in terms of points).
Still P6 vs. P18 and 35Pts. vs. 2Pts. is quite bizarre, given the fact that MSC wasn´t really worse than Nico looking at all four weekends combined.

#18885 RayInTorontoCanada

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Posted 01 May 2012 - 00:46

Well, whilst P6 v P18 in the table makes no sense, I doubt it would be any better than P6 v P8 or P9.

Raikkonen, for instance, has had his share of "issues" and where is he?

Perez hardly has a car as good and he's 8th/9th.

Grosjean hadn't been in F1 in 2 years. What happens when he gets rid of the rust?

No, I can't see Michael having the measure of Nico when the Mercedes gets in the groove and is really hooked up.

I don't think Michael's had this level of competition since Prost, Senna and Mansell were on the scene in 1991...and the depth, I feel, is greater now than ever!

Yes...he was very good in 1996 or whatever...but I can't put Hill, JV, Coulthard, Frenzen, Barrichello, Lehto, Irvine and Alesi in the Vettel-Hamilton-Alonso-Raikkonen-Button category. No way!

Edited by RayInTorontoCanada, 01 May 2012 - 00:47.


#18886 LiJu914

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Posted 01 May 2012 - 01:12

I don't think Michael's had this level of competition since Prost, Senna and Mansell were on the scene in 1991...and the depth, I feel, is greater now than ever!

Yes...he was very good in 1996 or whatever...but I can't put Hill, JV, Coulthard, Frenzen, Barrichello, Lehto, Irvine and Alesi in the Vettel-Hamilton-Alonso-Raikkonen-Button category. No way!


Yeah Button really shook the F1-world back in MSC´s younger days...

btw. I remember an inexperienced Damon Hill outscoring his teammate Prost in the 2nd half of the season, despite retiring from the lead two times...
And that was allegedly one of the weaker WDC-opponents for MSC....
To be clear: I´m not saying someone like Hill should be considered as good as Prost, but in reality the difference between a "normal" WDC and an all time great isn´t as big as some might suppose. So i think one shouldn´t underestimate or talk down his opposition back then.

Edited by LiJu914, 01 May 2012 - 01:20.


#18887 RayInTorontoCanada

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Posted 01 May 2012 - 01:56

Yeah Button really shook the F1-world back in MSC´s younger days...

btw. I remember an inexperienced Damon Hill outscoring his teammate Prost in the 2nd half of the season, despite retiring from the lead two times...
And that was allegedly one of the weaker WDC-opponents for MSC....
To be clear: I´m not saying someone like Hill should be considered as good as Prost, but in reality the difference between a "normal" WDC and an all time great isn´t as big as some might suppose. So i think one shouldn´t underestimate or talk down his opposition back then.


Ha! Prost was phoning in his drives by the tail end of 1993 and was getting ready to hang up his helmet after his 4th title.

I saw Prost race in 1981, 82, 83...85, 86...88, 89, 90...Prost was phenominal against the greatest competition one driver ever saw intra-team (Senna, Lauda, Mansell, Rosberg, Arnoux). The mid-late 93 Prost was nothing like the motivated 81-91 Prost!

So, you reckon Vettel-Alonso-Hamilton-Raikkonen-Button circa 2009-2012 (substituting Kubica for Raikkonen in 2010) isn't superior to JV-Damon-DC-Frentzen-Alesi?

In my opinion only Hakkinen was an Ace in the sense of the Aces we have on the grid now.

Hakkinen :up:

Damon, JV, HH Frentzen, DC... :well:

Anyway, I think Schumacher has never gone up against such stiff competition...and with a playing field that's more level now than ever (control tyres, homologated engines, tightened technical regs, etc.).

It's hardly a surprise to me that he's crying about the tyres. Nico, Alonso, Hamilton, Kimi, Button, Seb Vettel...they're all getting on with it!

He should too!

Edited by RayInTorontoCanada, 01 May 2012 - 02:03.


#18888 baddog

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Posted 01 May 2012 - 01:58

I don't agree that he is outperforming Nico overall nor that happenstance has given Rosberg a points advantage. Noone can deny that Schumacher has had a run of bad luck that's bound to change, but I think your selling Nico short. He's driven pretty well so far this season. Anyhow, it will clearly be interesting to see how the rest of the season plays out.

You don't have to agree with me even though I'm right factually. We need people to be wrong to make the discussion more colourful ;)

#18889 LiJu914

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Posted 01 May 2012 - 02:33

Ha! Prost was phoning in his drives by the tail end of 1993. I saw Prost race in 1981, 82, 83...85, 86...88, 89, 90...Prost was phenominal against the greatest competition one driver ever saw intra-team (Senna, Lauda, Mansell, Rosberg, Arnoux). The mid-late 93 Prost was nothing like the motivated the 81-91 Prost!


That´s why i said, that i´m not putting Hill on the same level as Prost.

So, you reckon Vettel-Alonso-Hamilton-Raikkonen-Button circa 2009-2012 (substituting Kubica for Raikkonen in 2010) isn't superior to JV-Damon-DC-Frentzen-Alesi?
In my opinion only Hakkinen was an Ace in the sense of the Aces we have on the grid now.


How do you even compare...let´s say...Jenson Button and Damon Hill? By statistics (wouldn´t be in Jenson´s favour)? How they did against their teammates (Hill only lost to Prost as a rookie and to Frentzen when he already lacked motivation, whereas Button wasn´t better then RSchumacher,Fisichella and sometimes also Barrichello)? I don´t know you tell me.

btw. I don´t know, what you had in mind, when you made these two lists. In fact MSC had WDC-fights in his "first career" against: Hill, Villeneuve, Hakkinen, Raikkonen(+Montoya), Alonso.
Won some and lost some. In the end i think that´s quite a good roster he was driving against.

Btw. I think, MSC already proved that he was able to cope with "real opposition" in his very first races. He had zero F1-experience, it was in the middle of the season (which is way more difficult to do well than with a proper preperation in pre-season testing), the car was an understeering Barnard-creation and his teammate was Nelson Piquet, who at that time had won the most championships of all active drivers (together with Prost) - and yet MSC was instantly faster than him (even though he scored 0,5 points less).
And as i sometimes heard the argument, that Piquet was old (38 in 1991) and had lost it, i should add that e.g. MSC was also already 37 in 2006, when he faced Alonso...so people should be careful with that.







Edited by LiJu914, 01 May 2012 - 02:36.


#18890 Pamphlet

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Posted 01 May 2012 - 02:46

It's hardly a surprise to me that he's crying about the tyres. Nico, Alonso, Hamilton, Kimi, Button...they're all getting on with it!

He should too!


Funny, that. He was whining about the tyres in almost every race.

And Brundle said there are at least two drivers, a world champion and a multiple race winner, agreeing with Schuey. As for Rosberg, he got his first win earlier this season. His word is far easier to disregard than Schuey's.

Well, whilst P6 v P18 in the table makes no sense, I doubt it would be any better than P6 v P8 or P9.

Raikkonen, for instance, has had his share of "issues" and where is he?


Below Rosberg and Alonso.

Perez hardly has a car as good and he's 8th/9th.


It's the Alonso syndrome - dumb luck on a race weekend brought him high up.

Grosjean hadn't been in F1 in 2 years. What happens when he gets rid of the rust?


If you're talking about Bahrain, then Lotus clearly had the best car on the field that day, yet even with him starting as high up as he did (and he didn't have to contend with Massa, like Kimi) he only managed a poor third, a good deal behind his unlucky/strategy-stricken teammate. But then we could also chalk that up to Vettel's skill - look at how far behind Webber was.

No, I can't see Michael having the measure of Nico when the Mercedes gets in the groove and is really hooked up.


You're forgetting the fact that China is Nico's best track and one of Schuey's worst tracks. Past that, it's the only track where Rosberg clearly outperformed his teammate. Constant qualifying mistakes, desperate moves (contact w/ Perez in Australia, Schumacher-esquely running Hamilton and Alonso wide in Bahrain), barely being able to keep race pace equal, even when his rival is stuck in traffic - that's a sign of desperation if anything. It won't last him much longer. Granted, I don't think Schuey will win any races this year - the Merc won't cut it.

I don't think Michael's had this level of competition since Prost, Senna and Mansell were on the scene in 1991...and the depth, I feel, is greater now than ever!


He's never been this unlucky before either. 3 car problems and a Grosjean in 4 races.

Edited by Pamphlet, 01 May 2012 - 02:57.


#18891 Pamphlet

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Posted 01 May 2012 - 02:51

Just for the record: You mixed something up in that post. That´s not my post which you were quoting/answering there.


Eeyup, edited.

#18892 iakhtar

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Posted 01 May 2012 - 06:36

For me, the fact that a 43 year old MS being competitive with this current 'golden' generation tells a different story, maybe they aren't as good as the hype suggests.

Also, without Schumacher back in his glory days, Hill/DC/JV and company would all probably be multiple WDC's and the whole era would have been regarded as the most competitive ever, lets face it, we wouldn't know any different.

#18893 BRK

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Posted 01 May 2012 - 08:51

Really glad Michael chose to speak out about the tyres, for a while I wasn't sure which side he was on regarding the issue (which it is). :up: :p

For me, the fact that a 43 year old MS being competitive with this current 'golden' generation tells a different story, maybe they aren't as good as the hype suggests.

Also, without Schumacher back in his glory days, Hill/DC/JV and company would all probably be multiple WDC's and the whole era would have been regarded as the most competitive ever, lets face it, we wouldn't know any different.


Exactly, pretty much what I've said all along. I'm sure a lot of people will catch up with this a decade or so from now -probably when they realize you'd have had much the same 'competitive' field of today with MS out of the picture as there would've been no single driver that was much better than the rest. Still, it's only a theory for now -until MS wins his first race in a Mercedes, that is.;)

#18894 Boing 2

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Posted 01 May 2012 - 09:18

Really glad Michael chose to speak out about the tyres, for a while I wasn't sure which side he was on regarding the issue (which it is). :up: :p



Exactly, pretty much what I've said all along. I'm sure a lot of people will catch up with this a decade or so from now -probably when they realize you'd have had much the same 'competitive' field of today with MS out of the picture as there would've been no single driver that was much better than the rest. Still, it's only a theory for now -until MS wins his first race in a Mercedes, that is.;)



Competitiveness isn't just about drivers, it's about cars too. I started watching about 88/89 and from then until 2003 I think, there were never more than 2 teams capable of fighting for the title. In 3 of the last 4 seasons we've had 3-4 teams fighting for the title with fast drivers in both cars, that's a lot of competition.

You're saying that in 94, without Schumacher, there would have been more competition for the title? McLaren and Ferrari couldn't even finish a race and the second Bennetton was a non entity, where would that competition come from? likewise in 95, McLaren slow, Ferrari unreliable. In reality 94-97 would have been a Williams walk in the park before Mclaren took over at the top. Ferrari might have challenged in the late 90's with Villeneuve or Alesi but that would still have been a two horse race. Assuming Ferrari were able to put together the same technical superteam team that they did, they would have been equally dominant on the early naughties with any decent driver pairing.

I just don't see where all this competition would have come from if you remove Schumacher.

#18895 LiJu914

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Posted 01 May 2012 - 09:39

Competitiveness isn't just about drivers, it's about cars too. I started watching about 88/89 and from then until 2003 I think, there were never more than 2 teams capable of fighting for the title.In 3 of the last 4 seasons we've had 3-4 teams fighting for the title with fast drivers in both cars, that's a lot of competition.


Not really. In 2011 there was basically no title-fight at all. 2010 is right. 2009 was a duel as was 2008 (Ok, one could include Kubica, but then e.g. Frentzen should also be included in 99)

All in all a dominant team or a fight between two teams are far more common than anything else. The only exceptions in the past decades were 2010, 2003, 86 (99, 2008 could be candidates)

And for example: It´s just a few month ago, that we witnessed a grid in which the gap between (e.g.) between the two best teams and the next one was often close to one second...

2012 might become a exceptional season in terms of competitiveness, but let´s wait first how it unfolds.

Edited by LiJu914, 01 May 2012 - 11:15.


#18896 Sakae

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Posted 01 May 2012 - 11:09

...2012 might become a exceptional season in terms of competitiveness,...

Are you sure about this?

#18897 LiJu914

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Posted 01 May 2012 - 11:14

Are you sure about this?


You left out the part, which made quite clear that i´m not sure.

#18898 ali_M

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Posted 01 May 2012 - 11:17

Not really. In 2011 there was basically no title-fight at all. 2010 is right. 2009 was a duel as was 2008 (Ok, one could include Kubica, but then e.g. Frentzen should also be included in 99)

All in all a dominant team or a fight between two teams are far common than anything else. The only exceptions in the past decades were 2010, 2003, 86 (99, 2008 could be candidates)

And for example: It´s just a few month ago, that we witnessed a grid in which the gap between (e.g.) between the two best teams and the next one was often close to one second...

2012 might become a exceptional season in terms of competitiveness, but let´s wait first how it unfolds.


Right on. :up:

When Schumi is the one winning the titles, this creates so much bitterness for some it would seem, that it overshadows all other perspective. Now that Vettel and others are winning, the perspective changes. However, things aren't really that different.

... except for now with this tyre fiasco and getting wind that drivers are driving at 70% of the car's and their potential performance because of tyre issues - narrow optimum temperature and sudden profound drop off in performance once worn beyond a certain point. For the first time, the drivers have been pretty much neutered and we are at the mercy of car and tyre performance. Great for constructors and the impersonal side of F1.

Edited by ali_M, 01 May 2012 - 11:18.


#18899 ivand911

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Posted 01 May 2012 - 12:23

Michael is lucky as always. When it is his time to drive the car, it will rain very strong. I don't expect a lot of driving now.

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#18900 MightyMoose

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Posted 01 May 2012 - 12:33

Competitiveness isn't just about drivers, it's about cars too. I started watching about 88/89 and from then until 2003 I think, there were never more than 2 teams capable of fighting for the title. In 3 of the last 4 seasons we've had 3-4 teams fighting for the title with fast drivers in both cars, that's a lot of competition.

You're saying that in 94, without Schumacher, there would have been more competition for the title? McLaren and Ferrari couldn't even finish a race and the second Bennetton was a non entity, where would that competition come from? likewise in 95, McLaren slow, Ferrari unreliable. In reality 94-97 would have been a Williams walk in the park before Mclaren took over at the top. Ferrari might have challenged in the late 90's with Villeneuve or Alesi but that would still have been a two horse race. Assuming Ferrari were able to put together the same technical superteam team that they did, they would have been equally dominant on the early naughties with any decent driver pairing.

I just don't see where all this competition would have come from if you remove Schumacher.

Some good observations here, but surely it can be switched to the other perspective, namely without Schumacher we'd have had boring seasons in 94, 95, 97, 98 etc....So perhaps anyone who likes to disparage him for that period should consider that option.

Just think, Hill could have won as many titles as Senna - if you draw the conclusion that if he'd have won 94,95 & 96... would Williams have binned him for HHF? Outrageous isn't it? We should be glad for MS!

Not so sure who would have been in the Ferrari in the 00's..... Barrichello possibly would have won in 02 & 04 but you'd have to have had weaker drivers than him out there... Would JV or JPM gone to Ferrari? I'd have picked some of them over RB to win out personally. Hakkinen would never have left McLaren, so what about DC? Frankly if any of them had been in the Ferrari I doubt that they would have won 5 titles in a row.