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#18851 RayInTorontoCanada

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 17:59

Schuey prefers the old ways when Bridgestone's main team was Ferrari and, as a result, he had tailor-made tyres to his liking and designed around his style.

I mean while Michelin had to worry about McLaren, Williams and Renault - and, thus, couldn't cater to any one team - Bridgestone's 'second' team was BAR...so it was very easy to focus on Ferrari and, more specifically, on their Number 1 driver. Barrichello's needs were an afterthought - and why not?!?! :)

Add to that unlimited testing at Fiorano and Mugello - testing that only Marlboro money could buy in such quanitity - and you had Schumacher being a very happy bunny indeed. :cat:

So, of course, he hates it now. :cry:

No tailor made tyres that he can test at whim. No un-even playing field where the dice were loaded firmly in his favour. :cry:

Now all he has is a level playing field where there's much closer competition (including driving competition that's superior to JV, Damon, Juan Pablo and DC) and he has the same thing as EVERYONE else! And...look at where he is without all those advantages... :down:

Cry me a river, Michael! :D


:wave:

Edited by RayInTorontoCanada, 30 April 2012 - 18:08.


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#18852 Atonal

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 18:25

Schuey prefers the old ways when Bridgestone's main team was Ferrari and, as a result, he had tailor-made tyres to his liking and designed around his style.

I mean while Michelin had to worry about McLaren, Williams and Renault - and, thus, couldn't cater to any one team - Bridgestone's 'second' team was BAR...so it was very easy to focus on Ferrari and, more specifically, on their Number 1 driver. Barrichello's needs were an afterthought - and why not?!?! :)

Add to that unlimited testing at Fiorano and Mugello - testing that only Marlboro money could buy in such quanitity - and you had Schumacher being a very happy bunny indeed. :cat:

So, of course, he hates it now. :cry:

No tailor made tyres that he can test at whim. No un-even playing field where the dice were loaded firmly in his favour. :cry:

Now all he has is a level playing field where there's much closer competition (including driving competition that's superior to JV, Damon, Juan Pablo and DC) and he has the same thing as EVERYONE else! And...look at where he is without all those advantages... :down:

Cry me a river, Michael! :D


:wave:


This is one great post, now I am finally convinced. Schumacher is the biggest con man in motorsports history, everything he has done is illegal and mala fide. Its amazing how he held the F1 world at gun point for more than 20 years in order to provide him with such cheap advantages and continues to do so till this day. Thank you Ray, thank you!

#18853 sharo

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 18:28

This is one great post, now I am finally convinced. Schumacher is the biggest con man in motorsports history, everything he has done is illegal and mala fide. Its amazing how he held the F1 world at gun point for more than 20 years in order to provide him with such cheap advantages and continues to do so till this day. Thank you Ray, thank you!

+1 :clap:
May I copy your answer to the other thread where our friend copy/pasted his eternal wisdom? :)

#18854 MightyMoose

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 18:44

Another totally one-sided post against the so-called advantages MS had throughout his Ferrari years, neatly negating the Benetton era, the battles vs McLaren & the late decision by the FIA to make tyres last the entire race in 2005.

Nothing like cherry-picking to suit your agenda is there?

As for where he is, he still appears to be a 43 yr old running his reasonably well-regarded teammate very close with little doubt that but for bad luck he'd be far higher in the standings this season.

To imagine the possibilities could we port a 95/96 era MS into this field....... oh what a debate we'd have then!

I'm certain you're capable of more than a pro-Lewis stance, anti-MS stance.... yet the frequency & content of the posts offered up do little to offset that nagging feeling you're not here for sensible debate.

#18855 RayInTorontoCanada

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 19:41

Another totally one-sided post against the so-called advantages MS had throughout his Ferrari years, neatly negating the Benetton era, the battles vs McLaren & the late decision by the FIA to make tyres last the entire race in 2005.

Nothing like cherry-picking to suit your agenda is there?

As for where he is, he still appears to be a 43 yr old running his reasonably well-regarded teammate very close with little doubt that but for bad luck he'd be far higher in the standings this season.

To imagine the possibilities could we port a 95/96 era MS into this field....... oh what a debate we'd have then!

I'm certain you're capable of more than a pro-Lewis stance, anti-MS stance.... yet the frequency & content of the posts offered up do little to offset that nagging feeling you're not here for sensible debate.


I'm a supporter of Vettel, Raikkonen...not just Hamilton.

I prefer competition ... as opposed to the stifling of competition that occured during the years when the FIA provided Ferrari with a technical veto (as confirmed by Max Mosely already).

Obviously I'm in the wrong thread. Obviously, too, some think Schumacher is a god or something. I don't.

Shame that only Hakkinen was around after Senna was killed at Imola. Shame too that there were only Number 2s around until the arrival of Alonso and Raikkonen in competitive cars in 2003-2005. And if they ever got close, the FIA would try and pull the rug out from under their feet (2003 Michelin debacle at Monza; Renault Mass damper; Alonso getting a penalty at Monza for "blocking" Massa in qually in 2006)

I suppose the Schuey thread here is for deification only and no criticism need be welcomed.

Edited by RayInTorontoCanada, 30 April 2012 - 19:46.


#18856 PretentiousBread

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 20:03

Biggest con man. Yea sure. What ever makes all you haters feel better about 7 world championships won. To say he is a con man is a big insult. You dont con your way to 7 world titles weather you like it or not. The man was once the best in the world.


I'm pretty sure atonal was being sarcastic.

#18857 Sakae

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 20:03

Criticism is expected, however borderline defamatory statements could be tolerated in small amounts, a point which I think we have past several pages back.

#18858 Massa_f1

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 20:06

I'm pretty sure atonal was being sarcastic.


Indeed he was. It is very hard to tell on this thread sometimes. Post deleted.

#18859 Afterburner

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 20:08

I suppose the Schuey thread here is for deification only and no criticism need be welcomed.

Criticism is more than welcome--you can't expect everyone to agree with it, though. Generally, people are much more likely to consider your opinion, positive or negative, if you attempt to be objective about it. :)

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#18860 MightyMoose

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 20:22

I'm a supporter of Vettel, Raikkonen...not just Hamilton.

I prefer competition ... as opposed to the stifling of competition that occured during the years when the FIA provided Ferrari with a technical veto (as confirmed by Max Mosely already).

Obviously I'm in the wrong thread. Obviously, too, some think Schumacher is a god or something. I don't.

Shame that only Hakkinen was around after Senna was killed at Imola. Shame too that there were only Number 2s around until the arrival of Alonso and Raikkonen in competitive cars in 2003-2005. And if they ever got close, the FIA would try and pull the rug out from under their feet (2003 Michelin debacle at Monza; Renault Mass damper; Alonso getting a penalty at Monza for "blocking" Massa in qually in 2006)

I suppose the Schuey thread here is for deification only and no criticism need be welcomed.


Now now, you know your original post was entirely myopic, based 100% on 1 side of the story with zero credit given to MS & Ferrari for all they achieved. Sure, some may not like the perception of how that success was obtained, but if you were truly interested in having a debate, you'd look at both sides rather than putting just the facts guaranteed to be seen as incendiary. Some, if not all of your points are valid, though they could and should be phrased differently, but it's not the whole story and that is what will leave a bad taste in the mouth. You posted something that could have had merit & turned it entirely into a bash-fest. Then have the temerity to complain & whine when you're pulled up on it!

Of course there are some who see MS as a god - as people have said, they get told to calm it down as well because their approach brings little to any of the threads involving MS either.

You took the opportunity to send in more digs though didn't you? Again, not interested in a debate over fair points, just your own dislike on how the seasons panned out.

As you like competition so much, surely you must love this year, 4 different winners in 4 different cars, no guarantee which team will be quickest 1 day to the next...... Life is full of contradictions isn't it.

#18861 Menace

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 20:33

As you like competition so much, surely you must love this year, 4 different winners in 4 different cars, no guarantee which team will be quickest 1 day to the next...... Life is full of contradictions isn't it.


A quick look at the whining thread would have told you he thinks this season is better then any of the years from 01'-04'.

#18862 RayInTorontoCanada

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 22:44

As you like competition so much, surely you must love this year, 4 different winners in 4 different cars, no guarantee which team will be quickest 1 day to the next...... Life is full of contradictions isn't it.


Yes. I do love this season...check out my post in the thread about Rosberg saying F1 is a different sport now!

Here:

I have been watching F1 religiously since 1981 (with memories from my boyhood of 1979 and 1980) and I HATED 2001 - 2004.

I HATED it!

It's the worst Formula One I ever watched. Didn't even go to the Canadian Grand Prix those years!

I love it now. Again. And I don't have a problem paying for flight, hotel, tickets and food when Montreal arrives on the calendar. :up:

Good riddence to the shit processions we used to have 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 years ago. May they NEVER come back!!!



No contradiction, i'm afraid!

Regardless, I actually apologize for trashing Schuey's Bridgestone years in this thread.

I'm sorry if I offended all his fans here.

I won't do it again!

:kiss:

Edited by RayInTorontoCanada, 30 April 2012 - 22:49.


#18863 baddog

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 23:18

Michael fans are very happy this year.. he is outperforming Nico clearly overall, whatever happenstance may have given Nico in terms of points advantage. We shall see how the rest of the year goes, but its looking good.

ps: Gods this quiet patch has brought them out of the woodwork has it not?

#18864 jj2728

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 23:48

Michael fans are very happy this year.. he is outperforming Nico clearly overall, whatever happenstance may have given Nico in terms of points advantage. We shall see how the rest of the year goes, but its looking good.


I don't agree that he is outperforming Nico overall nor that happenstance has given Rosberg a points advantage. Noone can deny that Schumacher has had a run of bad luck that's bound to change, but I think your selling Nico short. He's driven pretty well so far this season. Anyhow, it will clearly be interesting to see how the rest of the season plays out.

#18865 LiJu914

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Posted 01 May 2012 - 00:18

I don't agree that he is outperforming Nico overall nor that happenstance has given Rosberg a points advantage. Noone can deny that Schumacher has had a run of bad luck that's bound to change, but I think your selling Nico short. He's driven pretty well so far this season. Anyhow, it will clearly be interesting to see how the rest of the season plays out.


Indeed. And in fact even without MSC´s bad luck Nico would most likely be ahead in points as he was better when there was the most to gain (in terms of points).
Still P6 vs. P18 and 35Pts. vs. 2Pts. is quite bizarre, given the fact that MSC wasn´t really worse than Nico looking at all four weekends combined.

#18866 RayInTorontoCanada

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Posted 01 May 2012 - 00:46

Well, whilst P6 v P18 in the table makes no sense, I doubt it would be any better than P6 v P8 or P9.

Raikkonen, for instance, has had his share of "issues" and where is he?

Perez hardly has a car as good and he's 8th/9th.

Grosjean hadn't been in F1 in 2 years. What happens when he gets rid of the rust?

No, I can't see Michael having the measure of Nico when the Mercedes gets in the groove and is really hooked up.

I don't think Michael's had this level of competition since Prost, Senna and Mansell were on the scene in 1991...and the depth, I feel, is greater now than ever!

Yes...he was very good in 1996 or whatever...but I can't put Hill, JV, Coulthard, Frenzen, Barrichello, Lehto, Irvine and Alesi in the Vettel-Hamilton-Alonso-Raikkonen-Button category. No way!

Edited by RayInTorontoCanada, 01 May 2012 - 00:47.


#18867 LiJu914

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Posted 01 May 2012 - 01:12

I don't think Michael's had this level of competition since Prost, Senna and Mansell were on the scene in 1991...and the depth, I feel, is greater now than ever!

Yes...he was very good in 1996 or whatever...but I can't put Hill, JV, Coulthard, Frenzen, Barrichello, Lehto, Irvine and Alesi in the Vettel-Hamilton-Alonso-Raikkonen-Button category. No way!


Yeah Button really shook the F1-world back in MSC´s younger days...

btw. I remember an inexperienced Damon Hill outscoring his teammate Prost in the 2nd half of the season, despite retiring from the lead two times...
And that was allegedly one of the weaker WDC-opponents for MSC....
To be clear: I´m not saying someone like Hill should be considered as good as Prost, but in reality the difference between a "normal" WDC and an all time great isn´t as big as some might suppose. So i think one shouldn´t underestimate or talk down his opposition back then.

Edited by LiJu914, 01 May 2012 - 01:20.


#18868 RayInTorontoCanada

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Posted 01 May 2012 - 01:56

Yeah Button really shook the F1-world back in MSC´s younger days...

btw. I remember an inexperienced Damon Hill outscoring his teammate Prost in the 2nd half of the season, despite retiring from the lead two times...
And that was allegedly one of the weaker WDC-opponents for MSC....
To be clear: I´m not saying someone like Hill should be considered as good as Prost, but in reality the difference between a "normal" WDC and an all time great isn´t as big as some might suppose. So i think one shouldn´t underestimate or talk down his opposition back then.


Ha! Prost was phoning in his drives by the tail end of 1993 and was getting ready to hang up his helmet after his 4th title.

I saw Prost race in 1981, 82, 83...85, 86...88, 89, 90...Prost was phenominal against the greatest competition one driver ever saw intra-team (Senna, Lauda, Mansell, Rosberg, Arnoux). The mid-late 93 Prost was nothing like the motivated 81-91 Prost!

So, you reckon Vettel-Alonso-Hamilton-Raikkonen-Button circa 2009-2012 (substituting Kubica for Raikkonen in 2010) isn't superior to JV-Damon-DC-Frentzen-Alesi?

In my opinion only Hakkinen was an Ace in the sense of the Aces we have on the grid now.

Hakkinen :up:

Damon, JV, HH Frentzen, DC... :well:

Anyway, I think Schumacher has never gone up against such stiff competition...and with a playing field that's more level now than ever (control tyres, homologated engines, tightened technical regs, etc.).

It's hardly a surprise to me that he's crying about the tyres. Nico, Alonso, Hamilton, Kimi, Button, Seb Vettel...they're all getting on with it!

He should too!

Edited by RayInTorontoCanada, 01 May 2012 - 02:03.


#18869 baddog

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Posted 01 May 2012 - 01:58

I don't agree that he is outperforming Nico overall nor that happenstance has given Rosberg a points advantage. Noone can deny that Schumacher has had a run of bad luck that's bound to change, but I think your selling Nico short. He's driven pretty well so far this season. Anyhow, it will clearly be interesting to see how the rest of the season plays out.

You don't have to agree with me even though I'm right factually. We need people to be wrong to make the discussion more colourful ;)

#18870 LiJu914

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Posted 01 May 2012 - 02:33

Ha! Prost was phoning in his drives by the tail end of 1993. I saw Prost race in 1981, 82, 83...85, 86...88, 89, 90...Prost was phenominal against the greatest competition one driver ever saw intra-team (Senna, Lauda, Mansell, Rosberg, Arnoux). The mid-late 93 Prost was nothing like the motivated the 81-91 Prost!


That´s why i said, that i´m not putting Hill on the same level as Prost.

So, you reckon Vettel-Alonso-Hamilton-Raikkonen-Button circa 2009-2012 (substituting Kubica for Raikkonen in 2010) isn't superior to JV-Damon-DC-Frentzen-Alesi?
In my opinion only Hakkinen was an Ace in the sense of the Aces we have on the grid now.


How do you even compare...let´s say...Jenson Button and Damon Hill? By statistics (wouldn´t be in Jenson´s favour)? How they did against their teammates (Hill only lost to Prost as a rookie and to Frentzen when he already lacked motivation, whereas Button wasn´t better then RSchumacher,Fisichella and sometimes also Barrichello)? I don´t know you tell me.

btw. I don´t know, what you had in mind, when you made these two lists. In fact MSC had WDC-fights in his "first career" against: Hill, Villeneuve, Hakkinen, Raikkonen(+Montoya), Alonso.
Won some and lost some. In the end i think that´s quite a good roster he was driving against.

Btw. I think, MSC already proved that he was able to cope with "real opposition" in his very first races. He had zero F1-experience, it was in the middle of the season (which is way more difficult to do well than with a proper preperation in pre-season testing), the car was an understeering Barnard-creation and his teammate was Nelson Piquet, who at that time had won the most championships of all active drivers (together with Prost) - and yet MSC was instantly faster than him (even though he scored 0,5 points less).
And as i sometimes heard the argument, that Piquet was old (38 in 1991) and had lost it, i should add that e.g. MSC was also already 37 in 2006, when he faced Alonso...so people should be careful with that.







Edited by LiJu914, 01 May 2012 - 02:36.


#18871 Pamphlet

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Posted 01 May 2012 - 02:46

It's hardly a surprise to me that he's crying about the tyres. Nico, Alonso, Hamilton, Kimi, Button...they're all getting on with it!

He should too!


Funny, that. He was whining about the tyres in almost every race.

And Brundle said there are at least two drivers, a world champion and a multiple race winner, agreeing with Schuey. As for Rosberg, he got his first win earlier this season. His word is far easier to disregard than Schuey's.

Well, whilst P6 v P18 in the table makes no sense, I doubt it would be any better than P6 v P8 or P9.

Raikkonen, for instance, has had his share of "issues" and where is he?


Below Rosberg and Alonso.

Perez hardly has a car as good and he's 8th/9th.


It's the Alonso syndrome - dumb luck on a race weekend brought him high up.

Grosjean hadn't been in F1 in 2 years. What happens when he gets rid of the rust?


If you're talking about Bahrain, then Lotus clearly had the best car on the field that day, yet even with him starting as high up as he did (and he didn't have to contend with Massa, like Kimi) he only managed a poor third, a good deal behind his unlucky/strategy-stricken teammate. But then we could also chalk that up to Vettel's skill - look at how far behind Webber was.

No, I can't see Michael having the measure of Nico when the Mercedes gets in the groove and is really hooked up.


You're forgetting the fact that China is Nico's best track and one of Schuey's worst tracks. Past that, it's the only track where Rosberg clearly outperformed his teammate. Constant qualifying mistakes, desperate moves (contact w/ Perez in Australia, Schumacher-esquely running Hamilton and Alonso wide in Bahrain), barely being able to keep race pace equal, even when his rival is stuck in traffic - that's a sign of desperation if anything. It won't last him much longer. Granted, I don't think Schuey will win any races this year - the Merc won't cut it.

I don't think Michael's had this level of competition since Prost, Senna and Mansell were on the scene in 1991...and the depth, I feel, is greater now than ever!


He's never been this unlucky before either. 3 car problems and a Grosjean in 4 races.

Edited by Pamphlet, 01 May 2012 - 02:57.


#18872 Pamphlet

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Posted 01 May 2012 - 02:51

Just for the record: You mixed something up in that post. That´s not my post which you were quoting/answering there.


Eeyup, edited.

#18873 iakhtar

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Posted 01 May 2012 - 06:36

For me, the fact that a 43 year old MS being competitive with this current 'golden' generation tells a different story, maybe they aren't as good as the hype suggests.

Also, without Schumacher back in his glory days, Hill/DC/JV and company would all probably be multiple WDC's and the whole era would have been regarded as the most competitive ever, lets face it, we wouldn't know any different.

#18874 BRK

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Posted 01 May 2012 - 08:51

Really glad Michael chose to speak out about the tyres, for a while I wasn't sure which side he was on regarding the issue (which it is). :up: :p

For me, the fact that a 43 year old MS being competitive with this current 'golden' generation tells a different story, maybe they aren't as good as the hype suggests.

Also, without Schumacher back in his glory days, Hill/DC/JV and company would all probably be multiple WDC's and the whole era would have been regarded as the most competitive ever, lets face it, we wouldn't know any different.


Exactly, pretty much what I've said all along. I'm sure a lot of people will catch up with this a decade or so from now -probably when they realize you'd have had much the same 'competitive' field of today with MS out of the picture as there would've been no single driver that was much better than the rest. Still, it's only a theory for now -until MS wins his first race in a Mercedes, that is.;)

#18875 Boing 2

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Posted 01 May 2012 - 09:18

Really glad Michael chose to speak out about the tyres, for a while I wasn't sure which side he was on regarding the issue (which it is). :up: :p



Exactly, pretty much what I've said all along. I'm sure a lot of people will catch up with this a decade or so from now -probably when they realize you'd have had much the same 'competitive' field of today with MS out of the picture as there would've been no single driver that was much better than the rest. Still, it's only a theory for now -until MS wins his first race in a Mercedes, that is.;)



Competitiveness isn't just about drivers, it's about cars too. I started watching about 88/89 and from then until 2003 I think, there were never more than 2 teams capable of fighting for the title. In 3 of the last 4 seasons we've had 3-4 teams fighting for the title with fast drivers in both cars, that's a lot of competition.

You're saying that in 94, without Schumacher, there would have been more competition for the title? McLaren and Ferrari couldn't even finish a race and the second Bennetton was a non entity, where would that competition come from? likewise in 95, McLaren slow, Ferrari unreliable. In reality 94-97 would have been a Williams walk in the park before Mclaren took over at the top. Ferrari might have challenged in the late 90's with Villeneuve or Alesi but that would still have been a two horse race. Assuming Ferrari were able to put together the same technical superteam team that they did, they would have been equally dominant on the early naughties with any decent driver pairing.

I just don't see where all this competition would have come from if you remove Schumacher.

#18876 LiJu914

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Posted 01 May 2012 - 09:39

Competitiveness isn't just about drivers, it's about cars too. I started watching about 88/89 and from then until 2003 I think, there were never more than 2 teams capable of fighting for the title.In 3 of the last 4 seasons we've had 3-4 teams fighting for the title with fast drivers in both cars, that's a lot of competition.


Not really. In 2011 there was basically no title-fight at all. 2010 is right. 2009 was a duel as was 2008 (Ok, one could include Kubica, but then e.g. Frentzen should also be included in 99)

All in all a dominant team or a fight between two teams are far more common than anything else. The only exceptions in the past decades were 2010, 2003, 86 (99, 2008 could be candidates)

And for example: It´s just a few month ago, that we witnessed a grid in which the gap between (e.g.) between the two best teams and the next one was often close to one second...

2012 might become a exceptional season in terms of competitiveness, but let´s wait first how it unfolds.

Edited by LiJu914, 01 May 2012 - 11:15.


#18877 Sakae

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Posted 01 May 2012 - 11:09

...2012 might become a exceptional season in terms of competitiveness,...

Are you sure about this?

#18878 LiJu914

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Posted 01 May 2012 - 11:14

Are you sure about this?


You left out the part, which made quite clear that i´m not sure.

#18879 ali_M

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Posted 01 May 2012 - 11:17

Not really. In 2011 there was basically no title-fight at all. 2010 is right. 2009 was a duel as was 2008 (Ok, one could include Kubica, but then e.g. Frentzen should also be included in 99)

All in all a dominant team or a fight between two teams are far common than anything else. The only exceptions in the past decades were 2010, 2003, 86 (99, 2008 could be candidates)

And for example: It´s just a few month ago, that we witnessed a grid in which the gap between (e.g.) between the two best teams and the next one was often close to one second...

2012 might become a exceptional season in terms of competitiveness, but let´s wait first how it unfolds.


Right on. :up:

When Schumi is the one winning the titles, this creates so much bitterness for some it would seem, that it overshadows all other perspective. Now that Vettel and others are winning, the perspective changes. However, things aren't really that different.

... except for now with this tyre fiasco and getting wind that drivers are driving at 70% of the car's and their potential performance because of tyre issues - narrow optimum temperature and sudden profound drop off in performance once worn beyond a certain point. For the first time, the drivers have been pretty much neutered and we are at the mercy of car and tyre performance. Great for constructors and the impersonal side of F1.

Edited by ali_M, 01 May 2012 - 11:18.


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#18880 ivand911

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Posted 01 May 2012 - 12:23

Michael is lucky as always. When it is his time to drive the car, it will rain very strong. I don't expect a lot of driving now.

#18881 MightyMoose

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Posted 01 May 2012 - 12:33

Competitiveness isn't just about drivers, it's about cars too. I started watching about 88/89 and from then until 2003 I think, there were never more than 2 teams capable of fighting for the title. In 3 of the last 4 seasons we've had 3-4 teams fighting for the title with fast drivers in both cars, that's a lot of competition.

You're saying that in 94, without Schumacher, there would have been more competition for the title? McLaren and Ferrari couldn't even finish a race and the second Bennetton was a non entity, where would that competition come from? likewise in 95, McLaren slow, Ferrari unreliable. In reality 94-97 would have been a Williams walk in the park before Mclaren took over at the top. Ferrari might have challenged in the late 90's with Villeneuve or Alesi but that would still have been a two horse race. Assuming Ferrari were able to put together the same technical superteam team that they did, they would have been equally dominant on the early naughties with any decent driver pairing.

I just don't see where all this competition would have come from if you remove Schumacher.

Some good observations here, but surely it can be switched to the other perspective, namely without Schumacher we'd have had boring seasons in 94, 95, 97, 98 etc....So perhaps anyone who likes to disparage him for that period should consider that option.

Just think, Hill could have won as many titles as Senna - if you draw the conclusion that if he'd have won 94,95 & 96... would Williams have binned him for HHF? Outrageous isn't it? We should be glad for MS!

Not so sure who would have been in the Ferrari in the 00's..... Barrichello possibly would have won in 02 & 04 but you'd have to have had weaker drivers than him out there... Would JV or JPM gone to Ferrari? I'd have picked some of them over RB to win out personally. Hakkinen would never have left McLaren, so what about DC? Frankly if any of them had been in the Ferrari I doubt that they would have won 5 titles in a row.

#18882 ali_M

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Posted 01 May 2012 - 12:55

Competitiveness isn't just about drivers, it's about cars too. I started watching about 88/89 and from then until 2003 I think, there were never more than 2 teams capable of fighting for the title. In 3 of the last 4 seasons we've had 3-4 teams fighting for the title with fast drivers in both cars, that's a lot of competition.

You're saying that in 94, without Schumacher, there would have been more competition for the title? McLaren and Ferrari couldn't even finish a race and the second Bennetton was a non entity, where would that competition come from? likewise in 95, McLaren slow, Ferrari unreliable. In reality 94-97 would have been a Williams walk in the park before Mclaren took over at the top. Ferrari might have challenged in the late 90's with Villeneuve or Alesi but that would still have been a two horse race. Assuming Ferrari were able to put together the same technical superteam team that they did, they would have been equally dominant on the early naughties with any decent driver pairing.

I just don't see where all this competition would have come from if you remove Schumacher.


Indeed. Schumi sure spiced things up from 1995 to 2000.

But then when you look at things, once a driver does a lot better than other drivers, then those other drivers are no longer felt to be good. Schumi, in his dominant years has to be accounted for by either preferential treatment or his not having really good drivers on the grid with him. So many drivers are resentful of Michael for making them seem like they weren't very good. :well: These very drivers have many fans. This makes for quite the big resentful family with many among us now.

OTOH, the current championship winning drivers get a lot of competition from other drivers so there are now, an apparent lot of fantastic drivers on the grid, aren't there? :drunk:

#18883 schubacca

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Posted 01 May 2012 - 13:47

I don't agree that he is outperforming Nico overall nor that happenstance has given Rosberg a points advantage. Noone can deny that Schumacher has had a run of bad luck that's bound to change, but I think your selling Nico short. He's driven pretty well so far this season. Anyhow, it will clearly be interesting to see how the rest of the season plays out.


I do not think that MS is dominating NR. But Rosberg's 35-2 points advantage is due to MS's bad luck. Without, transmissions failing, people spinning him out, and wheels falling off, MS would probably be on par with NR's tally.

#18884 Urawa

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Posted 01 May 2012 - 13:57

... and the lack of running this year continues.
Starting to hate the season

#18885 Boing 2

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Posted 01 May 2012 - 14:18

Some good observations here, but surely it can be switched to the other perspective, namely without Schumacher we'd have had boring seasons in 94, 95, 97, 98 etc....So perhaps anyone who likes to disparage him for that period should consider that option.

Just think, Hill could have won as many titles as Senna - if you draw the conclusion that if he'd have won 94,95 & 96... would Williams have binned him for HHF? Outrageous isn't it? We should be glad for MS!

Not so sure who would have been in the Ferrari in the 00's..... Barrichello possibly would have won in 02 & 04 but you'd have to have had weaker drivers than him out there... Would JV or JPM gone to Ferrari? I'd have picked some of them over RB to win out personally. Hakkinen would never have left McLaren, so what about DC? Frankly if any of them had been in the Ferrari I doubt that they would have won 5 titles in a row.


I agree with you on this, without Schumacher there would have been a lot of dull seasons in the 90's, mostly with Williams walking several titles. What I'm disagreeing with is the notion that things aren't any more competitive today than they were in the 90's, and that without MS we would have had 3-4 way title fights all decade long. Clearly without him the seasons would have been less competitive.

Look at the grid today, even if you disregard the drivers with an (unfair) question mark over them such as Button, Webber, pre accident Massa, that still leaves Vettel, Hamilton, Alonso and Raikkonnen. These guys are indisputably fast, where were their 90's counterparts? Hakkinnen with maybe Villeneve and Alesi but they spent most of their careers driving cars ranging from ropey to out and out dogs. Also, Alesi was mental and Villeneuve crap in the wet. These guys (and I love all three) wern't as complete as the top men of today.

I honestly believe what we've got is an historically competitive era in F1 and we've got several drivers that will retire with many less titles than they would have gotten 20 years ago.

I would have given my aunties right tit to see Alesi in a genuinely competitive Ferrari. :(



#18886 ivand911

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Posted 01 May 2012 - 15:08

Posted Image

#18887 PoliFanAthic

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Posted 01 May 2012 - 15:09

The question is, would these drivers have been the complete sportsmen they are today before Schumacher defined such a high level of competing standards?

#18888 Boing 2

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Posted 01 May 2012 - 15:15

Who knows, but standards have been on the rise steadily since the 70's and the sport in general underwent a major push in the late 90's in the search for performance, you'd have to assume the drivers would have been part of that whatever had happened in the past.

When Williams were evaluating Rosberg and Piquet (juniors) back in the day they were even setting them written exams on top of track evaluation. The sport in genreal has become extremely professional.

#18889 ramad

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Posted 01 May 2012 - 15:30

Posted Image

I am 35 he looks younger than me :love:

#18890 ivand911

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Posted 01 May 2012 - 16:06

http://f1zoom.co.cc/...u...=358&full=1


#18891 puxanando

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Posted 01 May 2012 - 16:20

I am 35 he looks younger than me :love:


 ;) he has more money to spend in expensive skin care.......


#18892 jj2728

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Posted 01 May 2012 - 19:56

You don't have to agree with me even though I'm right factually. We need people to be wrong to make the discussion more colourful ;)


I wish I knew which facts you were referring to as the facts that I see are a 33 point differential between the 2 and a race win for Nico. I don't think those facts are wrong, but then again there are those that will mis-construe things to suit their own agenda and we do need you here to make the discussion more colorful..... ;)

#18893 ivand911

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Posted 01 May 2012 - 20:20

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#18894 Zauba

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Posted 01 May 2012 - 21:01

Well, whilst P6 v P18 in the table makes no sense, I doubt it would be any better than P6 v P8 or P9.

Raikkonen, for instance, has had his share of "issues" and where is he?

Perez hardly has a car as good and he's 8th/9th.

Grosjean hadn't been in F1 in 2 years. What happens when he gets rid of the rust?

No, I can't see Michael having the measure of Nico when the Mercedes gets in the groove and is really hooked up.

I don't think Michael's had this level of competition since Prost, Senna and Mansell were on the scene in 1991...and the depth, I feel, is greater now than ever!

Yes...he was very good in 1996 or whatever...but I can't put Hill, JV, Coulthard, Frenzen, Barrichello, Lehto, Irvine and Alesi in the Vettel-Hamilton-Alonso-Raikkonen-Button category. No way!


Your posts are full of regurgitated bullshit.

Tailored tires is a partial story. Schumacher had "tires made for him" only in the 2000s. Previously, he only had standard tires just like everybody else, and he was even better back then.

There is also the crap that Nico is really outperforming him and you are neglecting the amount of incidents MSC had this year. MSC leads 2-1 in qualifying and is 1-1 in race with Nico, in my count.

Another BS regurgitate by you a lot is claiming MSC never had real tough competition.

Firstly, watch 1992 again and see how he outscored Senna despite having a V8 engined car with 100HP less than Senna's V12. Senna also had semi-automatic geabox with paddles on steering wheel while MSC had manual H gearbox.

Then, watch 1993 when both had same engines and MSC qualified over a second faster than Senna in 3 or 4 ocasions..

Also, you put Button is a supposed top level and place Barrichello in a inferior level but when both were team mates in 2006, Barrichello started destroying Jenson on qualifyings after a initial adaption time where he was a lot behind the briton because of the different manner to drive the Honda engine.

Button is not any better than Barrichello imo and Hamilton struggles to even put 2 tenths on him on qualifying.

Also, putting Raikkonen in top tier is a joke. Kimi is even slower than Massa :lol:

The gap Hill usually had over Coulthard was greater than the gap Kimi had to the Scottish.

I guess Schumacher made you suffer for lots of years, I kind of understand your bitterness.

#18895 jj2728

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Posted 01 May 2012 - 22:00

Also, putting Raikkonen in top tier is a joke. Kimi is even slower than Massa :lol:


Talk about regurgitated bullshit......I find it amusing at times to see some of the new members jump in with both feet, calling others out, then topping it all off with statements like that..... :rolleyes:

#18896 Zauba

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Posted 01 May 2012 - 22:55

Talk about regurgitated bullshit......I find it amusing at times to see some of the new members jump in with both feet, calling others out, then topping it all off with statements like that..... :rolleyes:

F1 fact.

#18897 George Costanza

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Posted 02 May 2012 - 00:33

For me, the fact that a 43 year old MS being competitive with this current 'golden' generation tells a different story, maybe they aren't as good as the hype suggests.

Also, without Schumacher back in his glory days, Hill/DC/JV and company would all probably be multiple WDC's and the whole era would have been regarded as the most competitive ever, lets face it, we wouldn't know any different.



Yes, I pretty much agree. Schumacher is by far the benchmark.

And, the 1990's, without Schu, would have been pretty nuts, Damon Hill would have been probably a 2 or 3 time WDC, Mika would have been 3 times, DC would have probably won 1, JV 2 or more...

And, of course, if Ayrton hadn't crashed at Imola.... Who knows, probably would have been the first 7 time WDC. (1994-1997).

Of course, if Schumacher did not go to Ferrari, in 1996, he stayed with Benetton, he is likely the WDC in 1996-1997 (then he goes to Ferrari as a four time WDC).

Edited by George Costanza, 02 May 2012 - 00:36.


#18898 RayInTorontoCanada

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Posted 02 May 2012 - 00:39

Then, watch 1993 when both had same engines and MSC qualified over a second faster than Senna in 3 or 4 ocasions..


If ever there was a post full of shit, it's yours, bud! :down:

You haven't a rats clue about the Ford engine in the 1993 Benetton and the Ford engine in the McLaren in 1993. Do you?

Go back to kindergarten and learn something about the Works Ford engine in the Benetton and the 2 specs worse Customer engine in the McLaren. In 1993. The year after Honda withdrew and left McLaren without a works power plant.

Go do some homework....

...and then come back and tell us about bullshit! :wave:


#18899 Zauba

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Posted 02 May 2012 - 01:08

If ever there was a post full of shit, it's yours, bud! :down:

You haven't a rats clue about the Ford engine in the 1993 Benetton and the Ford engine in the McLaren in 1993. Do you?

Go back to kindergarten and learn something about the Works Ford engine in the Benetton and the 2 specs worse Customer engine in the McLaren. In 1993. The year after Honda withdrew and left McLaren without a works power plant.

Go do some homework....

...and then come back and tell us about bullshit! :wave:


The one who doesn't have a clue about the engines in 1993 is you.

I know there is a widespread myth that Mclaren and Benetton engines were different the entire year.

FYI, from Silverstone onwards, they started having same spec engine.

You are acting like a naive cry babying guy who thinks to know the facts as they were, but in reality, you are the one who needs to go back to kindergarten and learn things as they were.

Senna qualified 1,5s slower than MSC on Silverstone
Also look at the gap in Hungary(1,2s), Spa(0,9s). All qualifyings where both had same spec engines.

PS: I'm not using this facts to necessarily claim Schumacher was better than Senna. I just want to point out how much BS it is to say MSC never had tough competition. He had and did pretty well against them, if you ask me.

Edited by Zauba, 02 May 2012 - 01:12.


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#18900 Ramses1348

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Posted 02 May 2012 - 01:23

PS: I'm not using this facts to necessarily claim Schumacher was better than Senna. I just want to point out how much BS it is to say MSC never had tough competition. He had and did pretty well against them, if you ask me.


:up: :up: :up: