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#18901 RayInTorontoCanada

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Posted 02 May 2012 - 01:55

How many Grands Prix did Schuey win in 1993 in relation to Senna whilst he (MSC) had use of the superior Works Ford engine whilst Ayrton was using the 2 iterations worse Ford customer engine by contract?

Ya.

Tell us, please.

Senna wiped the floor with Schuey in 1993 and you'd have us believe that Schumi had the measure of Senna that year!

That's a load of junk if there ever was one.

No manager in the paddock or pundit on tv rated Schumacher's season higher than Senna's that year. You may want to Wiki-quote your girly numbers but I saw every race live and taped them all on VCR.

No one in their right mind who knew or knows anything about Formula 1 would rate Senna's 1993 season below Schumacher's 1993 season.

Except, of course, you! LOL

Edited by RayInTorontoCanada, 02 May 2012 - 01:56.


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#18902 RayInTorontoCanada

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Posted 02 May 2012 - 02:04

After Ayrton was killed, Schuey's main competition were two Williams-Renault test drivers who came on the cheap.

Frank and Patrick didn't want to pay Mansell. Prost was finished with it. And poor Senna was dead.

Enter Hill and Coulthard. Two Number 2s.

Hakkinen was the only Ace on the grid from Imola, 1994 to Alonso-Raikkonen in 2003-5.

Raikkonen pulverized Coulthard and Montoya at McLaren.

JV was beaten by Button...and when it came to a championship-winning car in 2009, Barrichello was also beaten by Button (6 wins to 2wins)

If you ask Stewart, Lauda, Moss and Co., they'll tell you that Alonso-Hamilton-Vettel-Raikkonen-Button Vintage 2007-2012 are in a league above JV-Damon-Coulthard-Montoya-Frentzen-Alesi vintage mid-1994-2002.

Ya, Hakkinen was awesome but he didn't get a proper car until the tail end of 1997 and his time at the sharp end ended with his near-fatal accident at Adelaide in 2001. When he did have a car, Schuey was only a match...but certainly not a God in relation.

No one's saying Schumacher isn't a "great". But none of the other Aces are crying about the Pirellis and Schuey can't handle the stiff competition as it's now.

Edited by RayInTorontoCanada, 02 May 2012 - 02:09.


#18903 baddog

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Posted 02 May 2012 - 02:26

"Hakkinen was awesome but he didn't get a proper car until the tail end of 1997 and his time at the sharp end ended with his near-fatal accident at Adelaide in 2001."

Okay now I KNOW you are kidding us. No-one is that far out of touch with reality, not and be able to type.

#18904 Pamphlet

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Posted 02 May 2012 - 02:39

Ya, Hakkinen was awesome but he didn't get a proper car until the tail end of 1997 and his time at the sharp end ended with his near-fatal accident at Adelaide in 2001.


...


:rotfl:

#18905 LiJu914

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Posted 02 May 2012 - 02:57

[same stuff as before]
...
No one's saying Schumacher isn't a "great". But none of the other Aces are crying about the Pirellis and Schuey can't handle the stiff competition as it's now.


In your view that shouldn´t matter as you even excused a 38 old Prost for not really outshining a Rookie-Hill...not to speak of how dominant his car was.

Edited by LiJu914, 02 May 2012 - 02:58.


#18906 ivand911

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Posted 02 May 2012 - 08:25

http://www.auto-moto...fotoshow_item=1
http://www.auto-moto...fotoshow_item=9
http://www.auto-moto...otoshow_item=16
http://www.auto-moto...otoshow_item=24
http://www.auto-moto...otoshow_item=26


#18907 Ferrari_F1_fan_2001

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Posted 02 May 2012 - 08:36

Ya, Hakkinen was awesome but he didn't get a proper car until the tail end of 1997 and his time at the sharp end ended with his near-fatal accident at Adelaide in 2001. When he did have a car, Schuey was only a match...but certainly not a God in relation.

.



You edited your post and STILL didn't pick up on this?

You're so pre-occupied with your anti-Schumi rant and his woeful his opposition was that you failed to notice something wrong with your timeline.

Toodles :wave:

Edited by Ferrari_F1_fan_2001, 02 May 2012 - 08:37.


#18908 baddog

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Posted 02 May 2012 - 09:12

Indeed, Mika's terrible accident was the START of his real career not the end. Most ironic really.

#18909 RayInTorontoCanada

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Posted 02 May 2012 - 09:33

There's something wrong with my timeline?

Mika actually had two terrible accidents in Australia.

One, in Adelaide, before he became a Grand Prix winner...and the second, in 2001, at the start of the year in Melbourne which made him make up his mind about retiring at the end of the year.

What's wrong with what I said?

#18910 baddog

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Posted 02 May 2012 - 09:47

Nice backtrack.. but his accident in 2001 was a very long way from 'near-fatal' (he walked away from the car ffs) and was no factor in his retirement at all.. you just have no idea what you are talking about.. you might think of admitting your error and save SOME face.

#18911 ivand911

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Posted 02 May 2012 - 10:08

Can we forget about Mika? It is good that MS have 52 laps already.

#18912 RayInTorontoCanada

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Posted 02 May 2012 - 11:08

Nice backtrack.. but his accident in 2001 was a very long way from 'near-fatal' (he walked away from the car ffs) and was no factor in his retirement at all.. you just have no idea what you are talking about.. you might think of admitting your error and save SOME face.


Just because he walked away from the car doesn't mean it couldn't have been fatal.

What kind of stupid, moronic, useless thinking is that?

The accident was "no factor"? :lol:

That accident was enough to make him and his wife, Erja, come to the conclusion that he should retire at the end of the year.

Unless, of course, you know a lot more than everyone else.

Edited by RayInTorontoCanada, 02 May 2012 - 11:08.


#18913 DS27

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Posted 02 May 2012 - 12:38

Just because he walked away from the car doesn't mean it couldn't have been fatal.


Duh!

You know, there could, just perhaps, be a difference between a 'potentially' fatal accident (which could be just about any car accident seeing as people die falling off a 2ft high stepladder) and a 'Near' fatal accident which clearly indicates the driver was badly injured. Hardly rocket science.

Edited by DS27, 02 May 2012 - 12:42.


#18914 MightyMoose

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Posted 02 May 2012 - 12:52

In order to prevent this escalating, I'll explain it to you Ray.

Adelaide 1995 was Mika's near fatal crash, when he sustained head injuries and was placed in a medical coma for a few days. His recovery was only matched by the miraculous survival in the 1st place.

Melbourne 2001 was a big crash, but wasn't 'near-fatal' at all, sure it was a very scary crash as his front suspension broke and he piled into the wall, but given a marshal did actually lose his life in that same race, to call it as outrageously as you did is a little insensitive imo. Incidentally, I agree MH appeared to be spooked by the crash, he actually pitted at Monaco fearing a car issue, and McLaren could find none so sent him back out. There's little doubt it did play a part in his decision to take a sabbatical that turned into a retirement at the end of the season. For the record, it was imo a really big smash, but I'm also sure it wasn't THE biggest crash that season.... watch the race at Spa and look for Irvine & Burti tangling at Blanchimont.

The reason, I suspect, people have been aggressive in their attitudes here towards you are that you seen entrenched in your position debating the "worthiness" of MS's titles and his overall ability. When you take that position but then continually repeat a> an error such as getting a location & date of a bad crash wrong & b> refuse to admit to said error, it does give the appearance that you're not interested terribly in the facts & are perhaps here just to downplay a driver.

Either way, your credibility took a hit in the eyes of those who disagree with you, you've given them ammunition to debate your views.

#18915 Jomyboy

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Posted 02 May 2012 - 14:24

Well if everyone were to talk sense then we wouldnt have much of a debate now, would we?

#18916 ali_M

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Posted 02 May 2012 - 14:42

How many Grands Prix did Schuey win in 1993 in relation to Senna whilst he (MSC) had use of the superior Works Ford engine whilst Ayrton was using the 2 iterations worse Ford customer engine by contract?

Ya.

Tell us, please.

Senna wiped the floor with Schuey in 1993 and you'd have us believe that Schumi had the measure of Senna that year!

That's a load of junk if there ever was one.

No manager in the paddock or pundit on tv rated Schumacher's season higher than Senna's that year. You may want to Wiki-quote your girly numbers but I saw every race live and taped them all on VCR.

No one in their right mind who knew or knows anything about Formula 1 would rate Senna's 1993 season below Schumacher's 1993 season.

Except, of course, you! LOL


To spin things your way, the 'fact' is that Schumacher was beating Senna just before his death. There's no reason to think that would not have continued. None. However, an interruption of potential timeline leaves much for the "what if" discussions, don't they?

#18917 ali.unal

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Posted 02 May 2012 - 14:42

Can we forget about Mika? It is good that MS have 52 laps already.

112 :up:

I hear some saying that Michael Schumacher will be able to use new gearbox in Spain while Rosberg will have to wait next race. However, didn't Michael change his gearbox in Bahrain? How could he change it to use new gearbox?

#18918 sharo

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Posted 02 May 2012 - 14:46

It was explained recently when Hamilton changed his gearbox. It appears after a change and a penalty, they can put a new one for the next race, without penalty and start the n-races cycle. BTW - 5 or 4, I am not sure ATM?

#18919 ali_M

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Posted 02 May 2012 - 14:53

Well if everyone were to talk sense then we wouldnt have much of a debate now, would we?


Very sensible points of view can easily diverge and lead to healthy discussion. Part of the problem with these discussions and why they break down so much is this erroneous feeling that if everyone is rational and sensible, then they'll automatically share the same views. With this mindset, one will automatically feel that someone with a different POV has an irrational and insensible point of view that needs fixing. Respect for the other point of view is nonexistent.

While it does give me satisfaction when my POV and perspective are understood and even better, agreed with :cool: ; in the end, it's really just a point of view coming from a tiny perspective.

I find it quite interesting how Schumacher's achievements can attract such polar views. I'm at one of those poles... i.e., an strong admirer and supporter. :clap: Some may argue that I don't have rational grounds to admirer him so much, but then, I do wonder about the haters.

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#18920 ivand911

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Posted 02 May 2012 - 15:12

Posted Image

http://www.gpupdate....197920/#/197920

Edited by ivand911, 02 May 2012 - 15:16.


#18921 ali.unal

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Posted 02 May 2012 - 15:23

It was explained recently when Hamilton changed his gearbox. It appears after a change and a penalty, they can put a new one for the next race, without penalty and start the n-races cycle. BTW - 5 or 4, I am not sure ATM?

Odd. Thanks for your explanation. It's 5-race now for a gearbox to last.

#18922 ivand911

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Posted 02 May 2012 - 16:39

Odd. Thanks for your explanation. It's 5-race now for a gearbox to last.

http://www.motorspor...le-gain-report/
"Michael Schumacher took a five-place grid penalty in Bahrain due to Mercedes having to break the seal on his gearbox prior to the race.
He can therefore have a complete gearbox change for Barcelona, which according to Auto Motor und Sport is an all-new carbon housing design that is lighter, which should improve the W03's treatment of the Pirelli tyres.
Teammate Nico Rosberg must wait until Monaco before he can use the new 'box."

Edited by ivand911, 02 May 2012 - 16:59.


#18923 Sakae

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Posted 02 May 2012 - 17:20

http://www.motorspor...le-gain-report/
"Michael Schumacher took a five-place grid penalty in Bahrain due to Mercedes having to break the seal on his gearbox prior to the race.
He can therefore have a complete gearbox change for Barcelona, which according to Auto Motor und Sport is an all-new carbon housing design that is lighter, which should improve the W03's treatment of the Pirelli tyres.
Teammate Nico Rosberg must wait until Monaco before he can use the new 'box."

If so, this BB will blow up should he finish in the race ahead of NR.

#18924 654321

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Posted 02 May 2012 - 17:29

thnx for the always cool pics Ivan

#18925 ali.unal

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Posted 02 May 2012 - 17:47

If so, this BB will blow up should he finish in the race ahead of NR.

Thanks Ivan.

In one of other threads, there is a post saying Rosberg on a German TV was asked about this question and said he rather didn't want to comment.

#18926 BRK

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Posted 02 May 2012 - 17:54

144 laps, more than made up for the lack of running yesterday. :up:

#18927 spacekid

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Posted 02 May 2012 - 17:56

I don't think a big deal will be made of the gearbox issue. I'm not convinced its going to transform the car, and its clearly not any sign of favouritism - Nico hasn't had any car failures so isn't at that point in the replacements cycle. Maybe Michael is now testing the reliability of new parts for Nico :p

#18928 ivand911

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Posted 02 May 2012 - 18:03

If so, this BB will blow up should he finish in the race ahead of NR.

I really think MS will have advantage with new gearbox. He like Spain, so I think new lighter gearbox will be in his favor. He deserve for once to have luck. We still don't know if this are final updates.

New episode The Flying Lap:Live:
http://smibs.tv/live

Michael laps today:
10:03:11 0 O
10:04:06 1 P
10:44:32 3 1:27.676 -512.324
10:45:05 4 1:25.876 -1.800
10:46:10 5 1:25.215 -0.661
10:48:10 6 1:24.685 -0.530
10:50:10 7 1:24.685
10:51:04 8 1:24.685
10:53:04 9 1:24.180 -0.505
11:05:09 10 1:24.180
11:07:09 11 1:24.180
11:08:03 12 1:25.533 +1.353
11:10:03 13 1:25.010 -0.523
11:11:09 14 1:25.283 +0.273
11:13:09 15 1:25.551 +0.268
11:14:03 16 1:25.694 +0.143
11:16:04 17 1:25.321 -0.373
11:17:10 18 1:25.083 -0.238
11:18:05 19 1:23.948 -1.135
11:40:06 20 1:23.948
11:41:11 21 1:23.948
11:42:06 22 1:23.993 +0.045
11:44:06 23 1:23.972 -0.021
11:45:12 24 1:24.292 +0.320
11:47:02 25 1:25.024 +0.732
11:48:07 26 1:25.179 +0.155
11:50:07 27 1:25.175 -0.004
11:51:02 28 1:25.254 +0.079
11:52:07 29 1:24.994 -0.260
11:54:07 30 1:24.270 -0.724
12:17:11 31 1:24.270
12:19:10 32 1:24.270
12:20:05 33 1:24.901 +0.631
12:21:11 34 1:23.989 -0.912
12:23:11 35 1:24.874 +0.885
12:34:06 36 1:24.874
12:35:12 37 1:24.874
12:36:06 38 1:23.649 -1.225
12:38:06 39 1:24.476 +0.827
12:39:12 40 1:24.678 +0.202
12:41:12 41 1:24.523 -0.155
12:42:06 42 1:24.241 -0.282
12:43:12 43 1:23.404 -0.837
12:52:08 44 1:23.404
12:53:02 45 1:23.404
12:55:02 46 1:23.450 +0.046
12:56:08 47 1:24.203 +0.753
12:58:08 48 1:24.523 +0.320
12:59:02 49 1:25.112 +0.589
13:00:09 50 1:24.641 -0.471
13:02:09 51 1:24.043 -0.598
13:11:04 52 1:24.043
13:13:05 53 1:24.043
13:14:10 54 1:23.894 -0.149
13:15:05 55 1:24.364 +0.470
13:17:04 56 1:24.814 +0.450
13:18:10 57 1:25.111 +0.297
13:20:11 58 1:25.146 +0.035
13:21:05 59 1:23.547 -1.599
13:30:12 60 1:23.547
13:32:12 61 1:23.547
13:33:07 62 1:23.860 +0.313
13:35:07 63 1:23.727 -0.133
13:36:02 64 1:25.216 +1.489
13:37:08 65 1:25.314 +0.098
13:39:08 66 1:24.888 -0.426
13:40:02 67 1:23.954 -0.934
13:48:02 68 1:23.954
13:50:03 69 1:23.954
13:51:09 70 1:24.287 +0.333
13:53:08 71 1:24.423 +0.136
13:54:03 72 1:23.858 -0.565
13:55:09 73 1:24.011 +0.153
15:10:11 74 1:24.011
15:11:05 75 1:24.011
15:13:06 76 1:25.481 +1.470
15:14:11 77 1:25.832 +0.351
15:15:07 78 1:25.310 -0.522
15:17:06 79 1:26.419 +1.109
15:26:02 80 1:26.419
15:27:08 81 1:26.419
15:29:08 82 1:24.146 -2.273
15:30:03 83 1:25.001 +0.855
15:31:08 84 1:25.380 +0.379
15:33:08 85 1:25.997 +0.617
15:34:02 86 1:26.024 +0.027
15:36:02 87 1:24.681 -1.343
15:56:06 88 1:24.681 O
15:58:05 89 1:24.681
16:00:07 90 1:23.834 -0.847
16:01:03 91 1:24.959 +1.125
16:02:09 92 1:25.161 +0.202
16:04:09 93 1:25.191 +0.030
16:05:04 94 1:26.736 +1.545
16:07:05 95 1:23.898 -2.838
16:08:11 96 1:24.921 +1.023
16:10:11 97 1:24.803 -0.118
16:11:06 98 1:24.478 -0.325
16:12:12 99 1:24.477 -0.001
16:41:11 100 1:24.477
16:42:06 101 1:24.477
16:44:06 102 1:23.896 -0.581
16:45:12 103 1:24.628 +0.732
16:46:07 104 1:25.256 +0.628
16:48:08 105 1:25.535 +0.279
16:49:02 106 1:25.114 -0.421
16:51:03 107 1:24.260 -0.854
16:52:08 108 1:24.591 +0.331
16:53:04 109 1:25.187 +0.596
16:55:04 110 1:24.673 -0.514
17:38:02 111 1:24.673
17:40:13 112 1:24.673
17:41:08 113 1:24.756 +0.083
17:43:08 114 1:25.516 +0.760
17:44:05 115 1:25.319 -0.197
17:45:10 116 1:25.194 -0.125
17:47:10 117 1:25.072 -0.122
17:48:05 118 1:24.122 -0.950
17:50:06 119 1:25.010 +0.888
17:51:11 120 1:25.315 +0.305
17:53:11 121 1:25.316 +0.001
17:54:07 122 1:25.082 -0.234
18:14:06 123 1:25.082
18:16:07 124 1:25.082
18:17:02 125 1:25.776 +0.694
18:19:02 126 1:25.285 -0.491
18:20:08 127 1:25.144 -0.141
18:21:03 128 1:25.125 -0.019
18:23:04 129 1:25.024 -0.101
18:31:07 130 1:25.024
18:32:02 131 1:25.024
18:34:02 132 1:24.943 -0.081
18:35:08 133 1:24.874 -0.069
18:37:09 134 1:25.271 +0.397
18:38:04 135 1:24.937 -0.334
18:40:05 136 1:25.007 +0.070
18:50:10 137 1:25.007
18:51:06 138 1:25.007
18:53:07 139 1:25.272 +0.265
18:54:02 140 1:25.381 +0.109
18:55:08 141 1:25.322 -0.059
18:57:09 142 1:26.483 +1.161
18:59:09 143 1:43.010 +16.527
19:00:05 144 1:43.010 P

Edited by ivand911, 02 May 2012 - 19:01.


#18929 morash

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Posted 03 May 2012 - 04:17

Who knows, but standards have been on the rise steadily since the 70's and the sport in general underwent a major push in the late 90's in the search for performance, you'd have to assume the drivers would have been part of that whatever had happened in the past.

When Williams were evaluating Rosberg and Piquet (juniors) back in the day they were even setting them written exams on top of track evaluation. The sport in genreal has become extremely professional.


I think you should listen to the podcast from James Allen. He talks to Frank Dernie who provides great insight into the kind of effect MSC had with his work ethic and levels of preparation. While I agree with you that "preparation standards" for drivers would have evolved even if MSC would not have been around during the 90s, what he did was bring in a revolutionary change in driver mentality with his work ethic and the level of preparation he demonstrated for each race.

When you have a game changer coming in, the opponents are forced to lift themselves to that level just to compete, and if they don't they are left behind.

#18930 morash

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Posted 03 May 2012 - 04:17

Who knows, but standards have been on the rise steadily since the 70's and the sport in general underwent a major push in the late 90's in the search for performance, you'd have to assume the drivers would have been part of that whatever had happened in the past.

When Williams were evaluating Rosberg and Piquet (juniors) back in the day they were even setting them written exams on top of track evaluation. The sport in genreal has become extremely professional.


I think you should listen to the podcast from James Allen. He talks to Frank Dernie who provides great insight into the kind of effect MSC had with his work ethic and levels of preparation. While I agree with you that "preparation standards" for drivers would have evolved even if MSC would not have been around during the 90s, what he did was bring in a revolutionary change in driver mentality with his work ethic and the level of preparation he demonstrated for each race.

When you have a game changer coming in, the opponents are forced to lift themselves to that level just to compete, and if they don't they are left behind.

#18931 Mr2s

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Posted 03 May 2012 - 09:44

I think you should listen to the podcast from James Allen. He talks to Frank Dernie who provides great insight into the kind of effect MSC had with his work ethic and levels of preparation. While I agree with you that "preparation standards" for drivers would have evolved even if MSC would not have been around during the 90s, what he did was bring in a revolutionary change in driver mentality with his work ethic and the level of preparation he demonstrated for each race.

When you have a game changer coming in, the opponents are forced to lift themselves to that level just to compete, and if they don't they are left behind.


Although I agree with the work ethic, schumacher's mentality to racing was not all positive.

To their credit many of MSC's opponents didn't cheat, use bully tactics or demand special treatment, hence they were left behind. A cheating Senna and Williams team would have left Benetton in the dust. Williams didn't even appeal the foul tactics he used at the end of 1994 (something that would instantly be investigated today) with respect to the two dead drivers that season.
Even the father of his own team mate called him a cheat.

Schumacher also owes 2 of his titles to special tyres that no other team were allowed information on, let alone have access to. To the contrary, Senna always wanted to test himself without anything untoward.

His complaining about the latest tyres just about sums up his petulant character and career.

#18932 libano

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Posted 03 May 2012 - 09:56

Although I agree with the work ethic, schumacher's mentality to racing was not all positive.

To their credit many of MSC's opponents didn't cheat, use bully tactics or demand special treatment, hence they were left behind. A cheating Senna and Williams team would have left Benetton in the dust. Williams didn't even appeal the foul tactics he used at the end of 1994 (something that would instantly be investigated today) with respect to the two dead drivers that season.
Even the father of his own team mate called him a cheat.

Schumacher also owes 2 of his titles to special tyres that no other team were allowed information on, let alone have access to. To the contrary, Senna always wanted to test himself without anything untoward.

His complaining about the latest tyres just about sums up his petulant character and career.



seriously? are we back to that level of discussion? :drunk:

one 10 second post race soundbyte on german tv gets blown way out of proportion. apart from the fact that your post is just brimming with heresay and assumptions...how sour can those grapes be, 18 years later?

#18933 LiJu914

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Posted 03 May 2012 - 10:04

I´m more amused by the fact that he used, of all people, Senna as a counter-example of opponents, who didn´t cheat or use bully tactics.

Edited by LiJu914, 03 May 2012 - 10:05.


#18934 Mr2s

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Posted 03 May 2012 - 10:06

seriously? are we back to that level of discussion? :drunk:

one 10 second post race soundbyte on german tv gets blown way out of proportion. apart from the fact that your post is just brimming with heresay and assumptions...how sour can those grapes be, 18 years later?


What have I assumed?
He is a proven cheat. His own team mate's father called him a "cheap cheat"

Sour grapes? I admire his work ethic and I'm not a fan of any particular driver. The only sourness here, as a paying spectator of the sport, is perhaps being denied the chance to see him race a team mate on equal footing during those years he had the vastly superior car. The kind of racing we see saw between Alonso and Hamilton, Prost and Senna, Mansell Piquet, Hamilton and Button.

It's always the same reaction from schumacher fans, aparantly everyone else is either jealous or sour. I've got news for you, some of us don't ride our egos on another driver's back.




#18935 Mr2s

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Posted 03 May 2012 - 10:08

I´m more amused by the fact that he used, of all people, Senna as a counter-example of opponents, who didn´t cheat or use bully tactics.


Whilst reading Prost's book, Alain didnt seem too amused at their conversation regarding Benetton's cheating.
You could of course remind me where Senna has been found guilty of breaking rules instead of making this a personal attack. Schumacher thought he was above the rules. Schumacher broke rules that are the first to be taught to 8 year olds in Karting.

Edited by Mr2s, 03 May 2012 - 10:10.


#18936 morash

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Posted 03 May 2012 - 10:21

Although I agree with the work ethic, schumacher's mentality to racing was not all positive.

To their credit many of MSC's opponents didn't cheat, use bully tactics or demand special treatment, hence they were left behind. A cheating Senna and Williams team would have left Benetton in the dust. Williams didn't even appeal the foul tactics he used at the end of 1994 (something that would instantly be investigated today) with respect to the two dead drivers that season.
Even the father of his own team mate called him a cheat.

Schumacher also owes 2 of his titles to special tyres that no other team were allowed information on, let alone have access to. To the contrary, Senna always wanted to test himself without anything untoward.

His complaining about the latest tyres just about sums up his petulant character and career.


I think you are missing the point here. His work ethic and dedication forced other drivers to get to his level. I suppose he was bound to get special treatment from everyone who saw that he was a better bet than others in delivering results.

I have not seen MSC complain much at all through out his career. Which is the reason there is a whole lot of debate going on about his comments about tyres. He seldom complains and therefore his "observations" evoke so much discussion. Of course I have not seen him act in a petulant manner ever either on a race track or off it so I am not sure how you concluded that.

#18937 LiJu914

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Posted 03 May 2012 - 10:26

Whilst reading Prost's book, Alain didnt seem too amused at their conversation regarding Benetton's cheating.
You could of course remind me where Senna has been found guilty of breaking rules instead of making this a personal attack. Schumacher thought he was above the rules. Schumacher broke rules that are the first to be taught to 8 year olds in Karting.


I won´t make this thread into another little Senna/Schumacher-session. But again funny that you use the term "found guilty" in regards to one person, but ignore that in regards to another person as you used an example of alleged cheating, in which this person wasn´t even found guilty. Goodbye hypocrite.



#18938 Diablobb81

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Posted 03 May 2012 - 10:26

I love how idiotic the discussion about the Bridgestone tires and Michael/Ferrari is.How easy people choose to forget that there was a tire war going on and also about 2005.

Edited by Diablobb81, 03 May 2012 - 10:27.


#18939 Mr2s

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Posted 03 May 2012 - 10:32

I think you are missing the point here. His work ethic and dedication forced other drivers to get to his level. I suppose he was bound to get special treatment from everyone who saw that he was a better bet than others in delivering results.

I have not seen MSC complain much at all through out his career. Which is the reason there is a whole lot of debate going on about his comments about tyres. He seldom complains and therefore his "observations" evoke so much discussion. Of course I have not seen him act in a petulant manner ever either on a race track or off it so I am not sure how you concluded that.


You don't consider turning into other drivers many times because he can't take being beaten, petulant? Blocking the track at Monaco? Snubbing Hill on the podium? making disrespectfull comments/jokes about Hill infront of him during press conference? Throwing his crash helmet agaisnt his gargae wall?

He seldomed complained in public because he often had an unfair or illegal advantage.

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#18940 Mr2s

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Posted 03 May 2012 - 10:42

I love how idiotic the discussion about the Bridgestone tires and Michael/Ferrari is.How easy people choose to forget that there was a tire war going on and also about 2005.


There may have been a tyre war going on, but Michael/Ferrari received unprecedented help from the supplier contracted to supply many teams.
Ironically Bridgestone ended up losing the war because of isolating their 'partners' who jumped ship to Michelin.

from Gary Anderson

"He is a professional racing driver, and it's all about looking after your tyres. You do that by getting the right balance on the car.
When I was involved with Bridgestone tyres with Jordan in the early 2000s, in the middle of the tyre war with Michelin, Schumacher and Ferrari had tyres we were not even allowed to look at.
They cost so much money that Bridgestone could not afford to supply them to everyone. And whenever we did have an opportunity to run a derivative of those tyres, our lap times were much, much better.
It's a bit sad that Michael now sees things the other way around, because a lot of his competitiveness in those days was down to the working relationship he and Ferrari had with Bridgestone, one to which nobody else had access.
Now there's a standard tyre, it's down to him and Mercedes to get it working properly, not point the finger at the supplier."

Edited by Mr2s, 03 May 2012 - 10:42.


#18941 Mr2s

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Posted 03 May 2012 - 10:49

I won´t make this thread into another little Senna/Schumacher-session. But again funny that you use the term "found guilty" in regards to one person, but ignore that in regards to another person as you used an example of alleged cheating, in which this person wasn´t even found guilty. Goodbye hypocrite.


Benetton were found guilty of using an illegal fuel rig, developing traction control, shaving the plank down.

Senna was right all along. Hypocrisy doesnt come into it.

I guess your're one of those fanboys who make up stories to protect your hero, stories that actually differ from his own version of events. Then go on to protect your own ego by filtering :rotfl:


" It was the worst thing I have seen in Formula One. I thought he had grown up. He is a cheap cheat. He should leave F 1 to honest people."
Keke Rosberg

Edited by Mr2s, 03 May 2012 - 10:51.


#18942 Diablobb81

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Posted 03 May 2012 - 10:50

Ironically Bridgestone ended up losing the war because of isolating their 'partners' who jumped ship to Michelin.


So you are finally getting it? Or not?

Risk/reward kind of thing.

P.S. Btw they didn't lose.
P.P.S. No traction control on Benetton.

Honest people in F1? Rofl. How great the sour grapes are.

Edited by Diablobb81, 03 May 2012 - 10:53.


#18943 libano

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Posted 03 May 2012 - 10:53

You don't consider turning into other drivers many times because he can't take being beaten, petulant? Blocking the track at Monaco? Snubbing Hill on the podium? making disrespectfull comments/jokes about Hill infront of him during press conference? Throwing his crash helmet agaisnt his gargae wall?

He seldomed complained in public because he often had an unfair or illegal advantage.


sounds like sour grapes to me.

btw, this has been discussed to death and beyond, probably the main reason why this thread counts 474 pages. people have had enough time to form their opinion and are extremely unlikely to change them now that so much water has passed under the bridge. you're either preaching to the choir or talking to the hand.

#18944 D.M.N.

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Posted 03 May 2012 - 10:55

Enough of the Senna/Schumacher or Hill/Schumacher arguments which have been had time and time again.

#18945 Mr2s

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Posted 03 May 2012 - 10:55

You edited your post and STILL didn't pick up on this?

You're so pre-occupied with your anti-Schumi rant and his woeful his opposition was that you failed to notice something wrong with your timeline.

Toodles :wave:



To be fair, in recent years, everyman and his dog states that this is the most talented grid seen in F1. Now that Kimi has made an immediate impact after a lay off, the schummi worshippers only have one excuse left.


#18946 Mr2s

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Posted 03 May 2012 - 10:58

sounds like sour grapes to me.

btw, this has been discussed to death and beyond, probably the main reason why this thread counts 474 pages. people have had enough time to form their opinion and are extremely unlikely to change them now that so much water has passed under the bridge. you're either preaching to the choir or talking to the hand.


He shouldnt be complaining about the tyres in the present season, schumacher is the hypocrite. I dont really give a stuff about the stuff that you've cheery picked from my posts.

"He is a professional racing driver, and it's all about looking after your tyres. You do that by getting the right balance on the car.
When I was involved with Bridgestone tyres with Jordan in the early 2000s, in the middle of the tyre war with Michelin, Schumacher and Ferrari had tyres we were not even allowed to look at.
They cost so much money that Bridgestone could not afford to supply them to everyone. And whenever we did have an opportunity to run a derivative of those tyres, our lap times were much, much better.
It's a bit sad that Michael now sees things the other way around, because a lot of his competitiveness in those days was down to the working relationship he and Ferrari had with Bridgestone, one to which nobody else had access.
Now there's a standard tyre, it's down to him and Mercedes to get it working properly, not point the finger at the supplier"

Gary Anderson

#18947 Sakae

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Posted 03 May 2012 - 10:58

...Now there's a standard tyre, it's down to him and Mercedes to get it working properly, not point the finger at the supplier."

You are quoting Anderson as a gospel, telling us that Schumacher is cheating since he was eight years old, and now this.

I do not know what happened some thirty five years in Kerpen when he was a small boy, but maybe you do, and it is important to you to bring it up. What I know however is, that tire brought to first four races was anything but standard, and this is not my own opinion alone. Perhaps Anderson is wrong, and consequently you as well to simply repeat it ad nauseum in here.

Assuming that you have taken time and read actually what Schumacher said in essence, paraphrasing, that tire could have different characteristics to support better racing. I am not sure why thoughts of that kind would bring in you such venum of hate, but it say a lot about you as well; more than about him.

#18948 libano

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Posted 03 May 2012 - 11:01

To be fair, in recent years, everyman and his dog states that this is the most talented grid seen in F1. Now that Kimi has made an immediate impact after a lay off, the schummi worshippers only have one excuse left.


what's that? 7 world titles? yeah, i know, lame. everybody's opinion on the current grid's talent level surely trumps that. :drunk:

#18949 sharo

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Posted 03 May 2012 - 11:02

Please, don't feed the next new troll. He will soon come to the arguments in my signature. Nothing new.

#18950 Mr2s

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Posted 03 May 2012 - 11:05

So you are finally getting it? Or not?

Risk/reward kind of thing.

P.S. Btw they didn't lose.
P.P.S. No traction control on Benetton.

Honest people in F1? Rofl. How great the sour grapes are.


are you talking to yourself mr deluded?

Why were Benetton punished then? 500,000$ kop out of a fine IIRC

I think youll find to have sour grapes, I would have needed to be a supporter of a particular team or driver. Let alone like many here who have clearly invested their own egos into michael schumacher over the years. Many of you make up excuses to protect him, that differ from his own version of events lol.
I'm a neutral spectator who hates seeing drivers block tracks to stop another setting his qualifying time and go on to be a hypocrite regarding todays tyres.

P.S Bridgestone eventually lost their huge advantage and Michelin won 2005 and 2006.

Wrong on 3 accounts lol