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Michael Schumacher (merged)


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#18901 ali_M

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Posted 01 May 2012 - 12:55

Competitiveness isn't just about drivers, it's about cars too. I started watching about 88/89 and from then until 2003 I think, there were never more than 2 teams capable of fighting for the title. In 3 of the last 4 seasons we've had 3-4 teams fighting for the title with fast drivers in both cars, that's a lot of competition.

You're saying that in 94, without Schumacher, there would have been more competition for the title? McLaren and Ferrari couldn't even finish a race and the second Bennetton was a non entity, where would that competition come from? likewise in 95, McLaren slow, Ferrari unreliable. In reality 94-97 would have been a Williams walk in the park before Mclaren took over at the top. Ferrari might have challenged in the late 90's with Villeneuve or Alesi but that would still have been a two horse race. Assuming Ferrari were able to put together the same technical superteam team that they did, they would have been equally dominant on the early naughties with any decent driver pairing.

I just don't see where all this competition would have come from if you remove Schumacher.


Indeed. Schumi sure spiced things up from 1995 to 2000.

But then when you look at things, once a driver does a lot better than other drivers, then those other drivers are no longer felt to be good. Schumi, in his dominant years has to be accounted for by either preferential treatment or his not having really good drivers on the grid with him. So many drivers are resentful of Michael for making them seem like they weren't very good. :well: These very drivers have many fans. This makes for quite the big resentful family with many among us now.

OTOH, the current championship winning drivers get a lot of competition from other drivers so there are now, an apparent lot of fantastic drivers on the grid, aren't there? :drunk:

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#18902 schubacca

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Posted 01 May 2012 - 13:47

I don't agree that he is outperforming Nico overall nor that happenstance has given Rosberg a points advantage. Noone can deny that Schumacher has had a run of bad luck that's bound to change, but I think your selling Nico short. He's driven pretty well so far this season. Anyhow, it will clearly be interesting to see how the rest of the season plays out.


I do not think that MS is dominating NR. But Rosberg's 35-2 points advantage is due to MS's bad luck. Without, transmissions failing, people spinning him out, and wheels falling off, MS would probably be on par with NR's tally.

#18903 Urawa

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Posted 01 May 2012 - 13:57

... and the lack of running this year continues.
Starting to hate the season

#18904 Boing 2

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Posted 01 May 2012 - 14:18

Some good observations here, but surely it can be switched to the other perspective, namely without Schumacher we'd have had boring seasons in 94, 95, 97, 98 etc....So perhaps anyone who likes to disparage him for that period should consider that option.

Just think, Hill could have won as many titles as Senna - if you draw the conclusion that if he'd have won 94,95 & 96... would Williams have binned him for HHF? Outrageous isn't it? We should be glad for MS!

Not so sure who would have been in the Ferrari in the 00's..... Barrichello possibly would have won in 02 & 04 but you'd have to have had weaker drivers than him out there... Would JV or JPM gone to Ferrari? I'd have picked some of them over RB to win out personally. Hakkinen would never have left McLaren, so what about DC? Frankly if any of them had been in the Ferrari I doubt that they would have won 5 titles in a row.


I agree with you on this, without Schumacher there would have been a lot of dull seasons in the 90's, mostly with Williams walking several titles. What I'm disagreeing with is the notion that things aren't any more competitive today than they were in the 90's, and that without MS we would have had 3-4 way title fights all decade long. Clearly without him the seasons would have been less competitive.

Look at the grid today, even if you disregard the drivers with an (unfair) question mark over them such as Button, Webber, pre accident Massa, that still leaves Vettel, Hamilton, Alonso and Raikkonnen. These guys are indisputably fast, where were their 90's counterparts? Hakkinnen with maybe Villeneve and Alesi but they spent most of their careers driving cars ranging from ropey to out and out dogs. Also, Alesi was mental and Villeneuve crap in the wet. These guys (and I love all three) wern't as complete as the top men of today.

I honestly believe what we've got is an historically competitive era in F1 and we've got several drivers that will retire with many less titles than they would have gotten 20 years ago.

I would have given my aunties right tit to see Alesi in a genuinely competitive Ferrari. :(



#18905 ivand911

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Posted 01 May 2012 - 15:08

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#18906 PoliFanAthic

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Posted 01 May 2012 - 15:09

The question is, would these drivers have been the complete sportsmen they are today before Schumacher defined such a high level of competing standards?

#18907 Boing 2

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Posted 01 May 2012 - 15:15

Who knows, but standards have been on the rise steadily since the 70's and the sport in general underwent a major push in the late 90's in the search for performance, you'd have to assume the drivers would have been part of that whatever had happened in the past.

When Williams were evaluating Rosberg and Piquet (juniors) back in the day they were even setting them written exams on top of track evaluation. The sport in genreal has become extremely professional.

#18908 ramad

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Posted 01 May 2012 - 15:30

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I am 35 he looks younger than me :love:

#18909 ivand911

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Posted 01 May 2012 - 16:06

http://f1zoom.co.cc/...u...=358&full=1


#18910 puxanando

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Posted 01 May 2012 - 16:20

I am 35 he looks younger than me :love:


 ;) he has more money to spend in expensive skin care.......


#18911 jj2728

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Posted 01 May 2012 - 19:56

You don't have to agree with me even though I'm right factually. We need people to be wrong to make the discussion more colourful ;)


I wish I knew which facts you were referring to as the facts that I see are a 33 point differential between the 2 and a race win for Nico. I don't think those facts are wrong, but then again there are those that will mis-construe things to suit their own agenda and we do need you here to make the discussion more colorful..... ;)

#18912 ivand911

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Posted 01 May 2012 - 20:20

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#18913 Zauba

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Posted 01 May 2012 - 21:01

Well, whilst P6 v P18 in the table makes no sense, I doubt it would be any better than P6 v P8 or P9.

Raikkonen, for instance, has had his share of "issues" and where is he?

Perez hardly has a car as good and he's 8th/9th.

Grosjean hadn't been in F1 in 2 years. What happens when he gets rid of the rust?

No, I can't see Michael having the measure of Nico when the Mercedes gets in the groove and is really hooked up.

I don't think Michael's had this level of competition since Prost, Senna and Mansell were on the scene in 1991...and the depth, I feel, is greater now than ever!

Yes...he was very good in 1996 or whatever...but I can't put Hill, JV, Coulthard, Frenzen, Barrichello, Lehto, Irvine and Alesi in the Vettel-Hamilton-Alonso-Raikkonen-Button category. No way!


Your posts are full of regurgitated bullshit.

Tailored tires is a partial story. Schumacher had "tires made for him" only in the 2000s. Previously, he only had standard tires just like everybody else, and he was even better back then.

There is also the crap that Nico is really outperforming him and you are neglecting the amount of incidents MSC had this year. MSC leads 2-1 in qualifying and is 1-1 in race with Nico, in my count.

Another BS regurgitate by you a lot is claiming MSC never had real tough competition.

Firstly, watch 1992 again and see how he outscored Senna despite having a V8 engined car with 100HP less than Senna's V12. Senna also had semi-automatic geabox with paddles on steering wheel while MSC had manual H gearbox.

Then, watch 1993 when both had same engines and MSC qualified over a second faster than Senna in 3 or 4 ocasions..

Also, you put Button is a supposed top level and place Barrichello in a inferior level but when both were team mates in 2006, Barrichello started destroying Jenson on qualifyings after a initial adaption time where he was a lot behind the briton because of the different manner to drive the Honda engine.

Button is not any better than Barrichello imo and Hamilton struggles to even put 2 tenths on him on qualifying.

Also, putting Raikkonen in top tier is a joke. Kimi is even slower than Massa :lol:

The gap Hill usually had over Coulthard was greater than the gap Kimi had to the Scottish.

I guess Schumacher made you suffer for lots of years, I kind of understand your bitterness.

#18914 jj2728

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Posted 01 May 2012 - 22:00

Also, putting Raikkonen in top tier is a joke. Kimi is even slower than Massa :lol:


Talk about regurgitated bullshit......I find it amusing at times to see some of the new members jump in with both feet, calling others out, then topping it all off with statements like that..... :rolleyes:

#18915 Zauba

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Posted 01 May 2012 - 22:55

Talk about regurgitated bullshit......I find it amusing at times to see some of the new members jump in with both feet, calling others out, then topping it all off with statements like that..... :rolleyes:

F1 fact.

#18916 George Costanza

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Posted 02 May 2012 - 00:33

For me, the fact that a 43 year old MS being competitive with this current 'golden' generation tells a different story, maybe they aren't as good as the hype suggests.

Also, without Schumacher back in his glory days, Hill/DC/JV and company would all probably be multiple WDC's and the whole era would have been regarded as the most competitive ever, lets face it, we wouldn't know any different.



Yes, I pretty much agree. Schumacher is by far the benchmark.

And, the 1990's, without Schu, would have been pretty nuts, Damon Hill would have been probably a 2 or 3 time WDC, Mika would have been 3 times, DC would have probably won 1, JV 2 or more...

And, of course, if Ayrton hadn't crashed at Imola.... Who knows, probably would have been the first 7 time WDC. (1994-1997).

Of course, if Schumacher did not go to Ferrari, in 1996, he stayed with Benetton, he is likely the WDC in 1996-1997 (then he goes to Ferrari as a four time WDC).

Edited by George Costanza, 02 May 2012 - 00:36.


#18917 RayInTorontoCanada

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Posted 02 May 2012 - 00:39

Then, watch 1993 when both had same engines and MSC qualified over a second faster than Senna in 3 or 4 ocasions..


If ever there was a post full of shit, it's yours, bud! :down:

You haven't a rats clue about the Ford engine in the 1993 Benetton and the Ford engine in the McLaren in 1993. Do you?

Go back to kindergarten and learn something about the Works Ford engine in the Benetton and the 2 specs worse Customer engine in the McLaren. In 1993. The year after Honda withdrew and left McLaren without a works power plant.

Go do some homework....

...and then come back and tell us about bullshit! :wave:


#18918 Zauba

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Posted 02 May 2012 - 01:08

If ever there was a post full of shit, it's yours, bud! :down:

You haven't a rats clue about the Ford engine in the 1993 Benetton and the Ford engine in the McLaren in 1993. Do you?

Go back to kindergarten and learn something about the Works Ford engine in the Benetton and the 2 specs worse Customer engine in the McLaren. In 1993. The year after Honda withdrew and left McLaren without a works power plant.

Go do some homework....

...and then come back and tell us about bullshit! :wave:


The one who doesn't have a clue about the engines in 1993 is you.

I know there is a widespread myth that Mclaren and Benetton engines were different the entire year.

FYI, from Silverstone onwards, they started having same spec engine.

You are acting like a naive cry babying guy who thinks to know the facts as they were, but in reality, you are the one who needs to go back to kindergarten and learn things as they were.

Senna qualified 1,5s slower than MSC on Silverstone
Also look at the gap in Hungary(1,2s), Spa(0,9s). All qualifyings where both had same spec engines.

PS: I'm not using this facts to necessarily claim Schumacher was better than Senna. I just want to point out how much BS it is to say MSC never had tough competition. He had and did pretty well against them, if you ask me.

Edited by Zauba, 02 May 2012 - 01:12.


#18919 Ramses1348

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Posted 02 May 2012 - 01:23

PS: I'm not using this facts to necessarily claim Schumacher was better than Senna. I just want to point out how much BS it is to say MSC never had tough competition. He had and did pretty well against them, if you ask me.


:up: :up: :up:


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#18920 RayInTorontoCanada

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Posted 02 May 2012 - 01:55

How many Grands Prix did Schuey win in 1993 in relation to Senna whilst he (MSC) had use of the superior Works Ford engine whilst Ayrton was using the 2 iterations worse Ford customer engine by contract?

Ya.

Tell us, please.

Senna wiped the floor with Schuey in 1993 and you'd have us believe that Schumi had the measure of Senna that year!

That's a load of junk if there ever was one.

No manager in the paddock or pundit on tv rated Schumacher's season higher than Senna's that year. You may want to Wiki-quote your girly numbers but I saw every race live and taped them all on VCR.

No one in their right mind who knew or knows anything about Formula 1 would rate Senna's 1993 season below Schumacher's 1993 season.

Except, of course, you! LOL

Edited by RayInTorontoCanada, 02 May 2012 - 01:56.


#18921 RayInTorontoCanada

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Posted 02 May 2012 - 02:04

After Ayrton was killed, Schuey's main competition were two Williams-Renault test drivers who came on the cheap.

Frank and Patrick didn't want to pay Mansell. Prost was finished with it. And poor Senna was dead.

Enter Hill and Coulthard. Two Number 2s.

Hakkinen was the only Ace on the grid from Imola, 1994 to Alonso-Raikkonen in 2003-5.

Raikkonen pulverized Coulthard and Montoya at McLaren.

JV was beaten by Button...and when it came to a championship-winning car in 2009, Barrichello was also beaten by Button (6 wins to 2wins)

If you ask Stewart, Lauda, Moss and Co., they'll tell you that Alonso-Hamilton-Vettel-Raikkonen-Button Vintage 2007-2012 are in a league above JV-Damon-Coulthard-Montoya-Frentzen-Alesi vintage mid-1994-2002.

Ya, Hakkinen was awesome but he didn't get a proper car until the tail end of 1997 and his time at the sharp end ended with his near-fatal accident at Adelaide in 2001. When he did have a car, Schuey was only a match...but certainly not a God in relation.

No one's saying Schumacher isn't a "great". But none of the other Aces are crying about the Pirellis and Schuey can't handle the stiff competition as it's now.

Edited by RayInTorontoCanada, 02 May 2012 - 02:09.


#18922 baddog

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Posted 02 May 2012 - 02:26

"Hakkinen was awesome but he didn't get a proper car until the tail end of 1997 and his time at the sharp end ended with his near-fatal accident at Adelaide in 2001."

Okay now I KNOW you are kidding us. No-one is that far out of touch with reality, not and be able to type.

#18923 Pamphlet

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Posted 02 May 2012 - 02:39

Ya, Hakkinen was awesome but he didn't get a proper car until the tail end of 1997 and his time at the sharp end ended with his near-fatal accident at Adelaide in 2001.


...


:rotfl:

#18924 LiJu914

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Posted 02 May 2012 - 02:57

[same stuff as before]
...
No one's saying Schumacher isn't a "great". But none of the other Aces are crying about the Pirellis and Schuey can't handle the stiff competition as it's now.


In your view that shouldn´t matter as you even excused a 38 old Prost for not really outshining a Rookie-Hill...not to speak of how dominant his car was.

Edited by LiJu914, 02 May 2012 - 02:58.


#18925 ivand911

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Posted 02 May 2012 - 08:25

http://www.auto-moto...fotoshow_item=1
http://www.auto-moto...fotoshow_item=9
http://www.auto-moto...otoshow_item=16
http://www.auto-moto...otoshow_item=24
http://www.auto-moto...otoshow_item=26


#18926 Ferrari_F1_fan_2001

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Posted 02 May 2012 - 08:36

Ya, Hakkinen was awesome but he didn't get a proper car until the tail end of 1997 and his time at the sharp end ended with his near-fatal accident at Adelaide in 2001. When he did have a car, Schuey was only a match...but certainly not a God in relation.

.



You edited your post and STILL didn't pick up on this?

You're so pre-occupied with your anti-Schumi rant and his woeful his opposition was that you failed to notice something wrong with your timeline.

Toodles :wave:

Edited by Ferrari_F1_fan_2001, 02 May 2012 - 08:37.


#18927 baddog

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Posted 02 May 2012 - 09:12

Indeed, Mika's terrible accident was the START of his real career not the end. Most ironic really.

#18928 RayInTorontoCanada

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Posted 02 May 2012 - 09:33

There's something wrong with my timeline?

Mika actually had two terrible accidents in Australia.

One, in Adelaide, before he became a Grand Prix winner...and the second, in 2001, at the start of the year in Melbourne which made him make up his mind about retiring at the end of the year.

What's wrong with what I said?

#18929 baddog

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Posted 02 May 2012 - 09:47

Nice backtrack.. but his accident in 2001 was a very long way from 'near-fatal' (he walked away from the car ffs) and was no factor in his retirement at all.. you just have no idea what you are talking about.. you might think of admitting your error and save SOME face.

#18930 ivand911

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Posted 02 May 2012 - 10:08

Can we forget about Mika? It is good that MS have 52 laps already.

#18931 RayInTorontoCanada

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Posted 02 May 2012 - 11:08

Nice backtrack.. but his accident in 2001 was a very long way from 'near-fatal' (he walked away from the car ffs) and was no factor in his retirement at all.. you just have no idea what you are talking about.. you might think of admitting your error and save SOME face.


Just because he walked away from the car doesn't mean it couldn't have been fatal.

What kind of stupid, moronic, useless thinking is that?

The accident was "no factor"? :lol:

That accident was enough to make him and his wife, Erja, come to the conclusion that he should retire at the end of the year.

Unless, of course, you know a lot more than everyone else.

Edited by RayInTorontoCanada, 02 May 2012 - 11:08.


#18932 DS27

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Posted 02 May 2012 - 12:38

Just because he walked away from the car doesn't mean it couldn't have been fatal.


Duh!

You know, there could, just perhaps, be a difference between a 'potentially' fatal accident (which could be just about any car accident seeing as people die falling off a 2ft high stepladder) and a 'Near' fatal accident which clearly indicates the driver was badly injured. Hardly rocket science.

Edited by DS27, 02 May 2012 - 12:42.


#18933 MightyMoose

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Posted 02 May 2012 - 12:52

In order to prevent this escalating, I'll explain it to you Ray.

Adelaide 1995 was Mika's near fatal crash, when he sustained head injuries and was placed in a medical coma for a few days. His recovery was only matched by the miraculous survival in the 1st place.

Melbourne 2001 was a big crash, but wasn't 'near-fatal' at all, sure it was a very scary crash as his front suspension broke and he piled into the wall, but given a marshal did actually lose his life in that same race, to call it as outrageously as you did is a little insensitive imo. Incidentally, I agree MH appeared to be spooked by the crash, he actually pitted at Monaco fearing a car issue, and McLaren could find none so sent him back out. There's little doubt it did play a part in his decision to take a sabbatical that turned into a retirement at the end of the season. For the record, it was imo a really big smash, but I'm also sure it wasn't THE biggest crash that season.... watch the race at Spa and look for Irvine & Burti tangling at Blanchimont.

The reason, I suspect, people have been aggressive in their attitudes here towards you are that you seen entrenched in your position debating the "worthiness" of MS's titles and his overall ability. When you take that position but then continually repeat a> an error such as getting a location & date of a bad crash wrong & b> refuse to admit to said error, it does give the appearance that you're not interested terribly in the facts & are perhaps here just to downplay a driver.

Either way, your credibility took a hit in the eyes of those who disagree with you, you've given them ammunition to debate your views.

#18934 Jomyboy

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Posted 02 May 2012 - 14:24

Well if everyone were to talk sense then we wouldnt have much of a debate now, would we?

#18935 ali_M

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Posted 02 May 2012 - 14:42

How many Grands Prix did Schuey win in 1993 in relation to Senna whilst he (MSC) had use of the superior Works Ford engine whilst Ayrton was using the 2 iterations worse Ford customer engine by contract?

Ya.

Tell us, please.

Senna wiped the floor with Schuey in 1993 and you'd have us believe that Schumi had the measure of Senna that year!

That's a load of junk if there ever was one.

No manager in the paddock or pundit on tv rated Schumacher's season higher than Senna's that year. You may want to Wiki-quote your girly numbers but I saw every race live and taped them all on VCR.

No one in their right mind who knew or knows anything about Formula 1 would rate Senna's 1993 season below Schumacher's 1993 season.

Except, of course, you! LOL


To spin things your way, the 'fact' is that Schumacher was beating Senna just before his death. There's no reason to think that would not have continued. None. However, an interruption of potential timeline leaves much for the "what if" discussions, don't they?

#18936 ali.unal

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Posted 02 May 2012 - 14:42

Can we forget about Mika? It is good that MS have 52 laps already.

112 :up:

I hear some saying that Michael Schumacher will be able to use new gearbox in Spain while Rosberg will have to wait next race. However, didn't Michael change his gearbox in Bahrain? How could he change it to use new gearbox?

#18937 sharo

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Posted 02 May 2012 - 14:46

It was explained recently when Hamilton changed his gearbox. It appears after a change and a penalty, they can put a new one for the next race, without penalty and start the n-races cycle. BTW - 5 or 4, I am not sure ATM?

#18938 ali_M

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Posted 02 May 2012 - 14:53

Well if everyone were to talk sense then we wouldnt have much of a debate now, would we?


Very sensible points of view can easily diverge and lead to healthy discussion. Part of the problem with these discussions and why they break down so much is this erroneous feeling that if everyone is rational and sensible, then they'll automatically share the same views. With this mindset, one will automatically feel that someone with a different POV has an irrational and insensible point of view that needs fixing. Respect for the other point of view is nonexistent.

While it does give me satisfaction when my POV and perspective are understood and even better, agreed with :cool: ; in the end, it's really just a point of view coming from a tiny perspective.

I find it quite interesting how Schumacher's achievements can attract such polar views. I'm at one of those poles... i.e., an strong admirer and supporter. :clap: Some may argue that I don't have rational grounds to admirer him so much, but then, I do wonder about the haters.

#18939 ivand911

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Posted 02 May 2012 - 15:12

Posted Image

http://www.gpupdate....197920/#/197920

Edited by ivand911, 02 May 2012 - 15:16.


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#18940 ali.unal

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Posted 02 May 2012 - 15:23

It was explained recently when Hamilton changed his gearbox. It appears after a change and a penalty, they can put a new one for the next race, without penalty and start the n-races cycle. BTW - 5 or 4, I am not sure ATM?

Odd. Thanks for your explanation. It's 5-race now for a gearbox to last.

#18941 ivand911

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Posted 02 May 2012 - 16:39

Odd. Thanks for your explanation. It's 5-race now for a gearbox to last.

http://www.motorspor...le-gain-report/
"Michael Schumacher took a five-place grid penalty in Bahrain due to Mercedes having to break the seal on his gearbox prior to the race.
He can therefore have a complete gearbox change for Barcelona, which according to Auto Motor und Sport is an all-new carbon housing design that is lighter, which should improve the W03's treatment of the Pirelli tyres.
Teammate Nico Rosberg must wait until Monaco before he can use the new 'box."

Edited by ivand911, 02 May 2012 - 16:59.


#18942 Sakae

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Posted 02 May 2012 - 17:20

http://www.motorspor...le-gain-report/
"Michael Schumacher took a five-place grid penalty in Bahrain due to Mercedes having to break the seal on his gearbox prior to the race.
He can therefore have a complete gearbox change for Barcelona, which according to Auto Motor und Sport is an all-new carbon housing design that is lighter, which should improve the W03's treatment of the Pirelli tyres.
Teammate Nico Rosberg must wait until Monaco before he can use the new 'box."

If so, this BB will blow up should he finish in the race ahead of NR.

#18943 654321

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Posted 02 May 2012 - 17:29

thnx for the always cool pics Ivan

#18944 ali.unal

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Posted 02 May 2012 - 17:47

If so, this BB will blow up should he finish in the race ahead of NR.

Thanks Ivan.

In one of other threads, there is a post saying Rosberg on a German TV was asked about this question and said he rather didn't want to comment.

#18945 BRK

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Posted 02 May 2012 - 17:54

144 laps, more than made up for the lack of running yesterday. :up:

#18946 spacekid

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Posted 02 May 2012 - 17:56

I don't think a big deal will be made of the gearbox issue. I'm not convinced its going to transform the car, and its clearly not any sign of favouritism - Nico hasn't had any car failures so isn't at that point in the replacements cycle. Maybe Michael is now testing the reliability of new parts for Nico :p

#18947 ivand911

ivand911
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  • 8,152 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 02 May 2012 - 18:03

If so, this BB will blow up should he finish in the race ahead of NR.

I really think MS will have advantage with new gearbox. He like Spain, so I think new lighter gearbox will be in his favor. He deserve for once to have luck. We still don't know if this are final updates.

New episode The Flying Lap:Live:
http://smibs.tv/live

Michael laps today:
10:03:11 0 O
10:04:06 1 P
10:44:32 3 1:27.676 -512.324
10:45:05 4 1:25.876 -1.800
10:46:10 5 1:25.215 -0.661
10:48:10 6 1:24.685 -0.530
10:50:10 7 1:24.685
10:51:04 8 1:24.685
10:53:04 9 1:24.180 -0.505
11:05:09 10 1:24.180
11:07:09 11 1:24.180
11:08:03 12 1:25.533 +1.353
11:10:03 13 1:25.010 -0.523
11:11:09 14 1:25.283 +0.273
11:13:09 15 1:25.551 +0.268
11:14:03 16 1:25.694 +0.143
11:16:04 17 1:25.321 -0.373
11:17:10 18 1:25.083 -0.238
11:18:05 19 1:23.948 -1.135
11:40:06 20 1:23.948
11:41:11 21 1:23.948
11:42:06 22 1:23.993 +0.045
11:44:06 23 1:23.972 -0.021
11:45:12 24 1:24.292 +0.320
11:47:02 25 1:25.024 +0.732
11:48:07 26 1:25.179 +0.155
11:50:07 27 1:25.175 -0.004
11:51:02 28 1:25.254 +0.079
11:52:07 29 1:24.994 -0.260
11:54:07 30 1:24.270 -0.724
12:17:11 31 1:24.270
12:19:10 32 1:24.270
12:20:05 33 1:24.901 +0.631
12:21:11 34 1:23.989 -0.912
12:23:11 35 1:24.874 +0.885
12:34:06 36 1:24.874
12:35:12 37 1:24.874
12:36:06 38 1:23.649 -1.225
12:38:06 39 1:24.476 +0.827
12:39:12 40 1:24.678 +0.202
12:41:12 41 1:24.523 -0.155
12:42:06 42 1:24.241 -0.282
12:43:12 43 1:23.404 -0.837
12:52:08 44 1:23.404
12:53:02 45 1:23.404
12:55:02 46 1:23.450 +0.046
12:56:08 47 1:24.203 +0.753
12:58:08 48 1:24.523 +0.320
12:59:02 49 1:25.112 +0.589
13:00:09 50 1:24.641 -0.471
13:02:09 51 1:24.043 -0.598
13:11:04 52 1:24.043
13:13:05 53 1:24.043
13:14:10 54 1:23.894 -0.149
13:15:05 55 1:24.364 +0.470
13:17:04 56 1:24.814 +0.450
13:18:10 57 1:25.111 +0.297
13:20:11 58 1:25.146 +0.035
13:21:05 59 1:23.547 -1.599
13:30:12 60 1:23.547
13:32:12 61 1:23.547
13:33:07 62 1:23.860 +0.313
13:35:07 63 1:23.727 -0.133
13:36:02 64 1:25.216 +1.489
13:37:08 65 1:25.314 +0.098
13:39:08 66 1:24.888 -0.426
13:40:02 67 1:23.954 -0.934
13:48:02 68 1:23.954
13:50:03 69 1:23.954
13:51:09 70 1:24.287 +0.333
13:53:08 71 1:24.423 +0.136
13:54:03 72 1:23.858 -0.565
13:55:09 73 1:24.011 +0.153
15:10:11 74 1:24.011
15:11:05 75 1:24.011
15:13:06 76 1:25.481 +1.470
15:14:11 77 1:25.832 +0.351
15:15:07 78 1:25.310 -0.522
15:17:06 79 1:26.419 +1.109
15:26:02 80 1:26.419
15:27:08 81 1:26.419
15:29:08 82 1:24.146 -2.273
15:30:03 83 1:25.001 +0.855
15:31:08 84 1:25.380 +0.379
15:33:08 85 1:25.997 +0.617
15:34:02 86 1:26.024 +0.027
15:36:02 87 1:24.681 -1.343
15:56:06 88 1:24.681 O
15:58:05 89 1:24.681
16:00:07 90 1:23.834 -0.847
16:01:03 91 1:24.959 +1.125
16:02:09 92 1:25.161 +0.202
16:04:09 93 1:25.191 +0.030
16:05:04 94 1:26.736 +1.545
16:07:05 95 1:23.898 -2.838
16:08:11 96 1:24.921 +1.023
16:10:11 97 1:24.803 -0.118
16:11:06 98 1:24.478 -0.325
16:12:12 99 1:24.477 -0.001
16:41:11 100 1:24.477
16:42:06 101 1:24.477
16:44:06 102 1:23.896 -0.581
16:45:12 103 1:24.628 +0.732
16:46:07 104 1:25.256 +0.628
16:48:08 105 1:25.535 +0.279
16:49:02 106 1:25.114 -0.421
16:51:03 107 1:24.260 -0.854
16:52:08 108 1:24.591 +0.331
16:53:04 109 1:25.187 +0.596
16:55:04 110 1:24.673 -0.514
17:38:02 111 1:24.673
17:40:13 112 1:24.673
17:41:08 113 1:24.756 +0.083
17:43:08 114 1:25.516 +0.760
17:44:05 115 1:25.319 -0.197
17:45:10 116 1:25.194 -0.125
17:47:10 117 1:25.072 -0.122
17:48:05 118 1:24.122 -0.950
17:50:06 119 1:25.010 +0.888
17:51:11 120 1:25.315 +0.305
17:53:11 121 1:25.316 +0.001
17:54:07 122 1:25.082 -0.234
18:14:06 123 1:25.082
18:16:07 124 1:25.082
18:17:02 125 1:25.776 +0.694
18:19:02 126 1:25.285 -0.491
18:20:08 127 1:25.144 -0.141
18:21:03 128 1:25.125 -0.019
18:23:04 129 1:25.024 -0.101
18:31:07 130 1:25.024
18:32:02 131 1:25.024
18:34:02 132 1:24.943 -0.081
18:35:08 133 1:24.874 -0.069
18:37:09 134 1:25.271 +0.397
18:38:04 135 1:24.937 -0.334
18:40:05 136 1:25.007 +0.070
18:50:10 137 1:25.007
18:51:06 138 1:25.007
18:53:07 139 1:25.272 +0.265
18:54:02 140 1:25.381 +0.109
18:55:08 141 1:25.322 -0.059
18:57:09 142 1:26.483 +1.161
18:59:09 143 1:43.010 +16.527
19:00:05 144 1:43.010 P

Edited by ivand911, 02 May 2012 - 19:01.


#18948 morash

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Posted 03 May 2012 - 04:17

Who knows, but standards have been on the rise steadily since the 70's and the sport in general underwent a major push in the late 90's in the search for performance, you'd have to assume the drivers would have been part of that whatever had happened in the past.

When Williams were evaluating Rosberg and Piquet (juniors) back in the day they were even setting them written exams on top of track evaluation. The sport in genreal has become extremely professional.


I think you should listen to the podcast from James Allen. He talks to Frank Dernie who provides great insight into the kind of effect MSC had with his work ethic and levels of preparation. While I agree with you that "preparation standards" for drivers would have evolved even if MSC would not have been around during the 90s, what he did was bring in a revolutionary change in driver mentality with his work ethic and the level of preparation he demonstrated for each race.

When you have a game changer coming in, the opponents are forced to lift themselves to that level just to compete, and if they don't they are left behind.

#18949 morash

morash
  • New Member

  • 3 posts
  • Joined: May 10

Posted 03 May 2012 - 04:17

Who knows, but standards have been on the rise steadily since the 70's and the sport in general underwent a major push in the late 90's in the search for performance, you'd have to assume the drivers would have been part of that whatever had happened in the past.

When Williams were evaluating Rosberg and Piquet (juniors) back in the day they were even setting them written exams on top of track evaluation. The sport in genreal has become extremely professional.


I think you should listen to the podcast from James Allen. He talks to Frank Dernie who provides great insight into the kind of effect MSC had with his work ethic and levels of preparation. While I agree with you that "preparation standards" for drivers would have evolved even if MSC would not have been around during the 90s, what he did was bring in a revolutionary change in driver mentality with his work ethic and the level of preparation he demonstrated for each race.

When you have a game changer coming in, the opponents are forced to lift themselves to that level just to compete, and if they don't they are left behind.

#18950 Mr2s

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  • Joined: February 10

Posted 03 May 2012 - 09:44

I think you should listen to the podcast from James Allen. He talks to Frank Dernie who provides great insight into the kind of effect MSC had with his work ethic and levels of preparation. While I agree with you that "preparation standards" for drivers would have evolved even if MSC would not have been around during the 90s, what he did was bring in a revolutionary change in driver mentality with his work ethic and the level of preparation he demonstrated for each race.

When you have a game changer coming in, the opponents are forced to lift themselves to that level just to compete, and if they don't they are left behind.


Although I agree with the work ethic, schumacher's mentality to racing was not all positive.

To their credit many of MSC's opponents didn't cheat, use bully tactics or demand special treatment, hence they were left behind. A cheating Senna and Williams team would have left Benetton in the dust. Williams didn't even appeal the foul tactics he used at the end of 1994 (something that would instantly be investigated today) with respect to the two dead drivers that season.
Even the father of his own team mate called him a cheat.

Schumacher also owes 2 of his titles to special tyres that no other team were allowed information on, let alone have access to. To the contrary, Senna always wanted to test himself without anything untoward.

His complaining about the latest tyres just about sums up his petulant character and career.