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#18951 as65p

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Posted 03 May 2012 - 11:07

Please, don't feed the next new troll. He will soon come to the arguments in my signature. Nothing new.


You'll put Gary Anderson in your signature? :eek:

 ;)

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#18952 libano

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Posted 03 May 2012 - 11:08

Please, don't feed the next new troll. He will soon come to the arguments in my signature. Nothing new.


true, but sometimes it's just too tempting when those armchair experts attempt to rewrite racing history.

#18953 Mr2s

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Posted 03 May 2012 - 11:10

You are quoting Anderson as a gospel, telling us that Schumacher is cheating since he was eight years old, and now this.

I do not know what happened some thirty five years in Kerpen when he was a small boy, but maybe you do, and it is important to you to bring it up. What I know however is, that tire brought to first four races was anything but standard, and this is not my own opinion alone. Perhaps Anderson is wrong, and consequently you as well to simply repeat it ad nauseum in here.

Assuming that you have taken time and read actually what Schumacher said in essence, paraphrasing, that tire could have different characteristics to support better racing. I am not sure why thoughts of that kind would bring in you such venum of hate, but it say a lot about you as well; more than about him.


The 8 year olds comment was regards to behaving on the parade lap and ignoring Black flags. Something schumacher thought was OK in F1. i.e my comment on him thinking he is above the rules.
Taking me out of context and cherry picking is a pretty poor ploy.
Venom of hate? Ive said Ive respected his work ethic from the off there you go cherry picking again.

Sorry to hurt your ego.

#18954 Mr2s

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Posted 03 May 2012 - 11:11

true, but sometimes it's just too tempting when those armchair experts attempt to rewrite racing history.


He doesnt even put the full list of petulance in his signiture and you snuggle up to him

How wonderful it must be to have invested your own egos in michael schumacher all those years ago. Beyond any criticism apparantly.



#18955 sharo

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Posted 03 May 2012 - 11:12

You'll put Gary Anderson in your signature? :eek:

;)

Who was he? :p

#18956 Mr2s

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Posted 03 May 2012 - 11:14

You'll put Gary Anderson in your signature? :eek:

;)



In the mind of a schumacher worshipper, an F1 engineer's experience of events is just heresay.

Gary Anderson on the 'sad' hypocrite

"He is a professional racing driver, and it's all about looking after your tyres. You do that by getting the right balance on the car.
When I was involved with Bridgestone tyres with Jordan in the early 2000s, in the middle of the tyre war with Michelin, Schumacher and Ferrari had tyres we were not even allowed to look at.
They cost so much money that Bridgestone could not afford to supply them to everyone. And whenever we did have an opportunity to run a derivative of those tyres, our lap times were much, much better.
It's a bit sad that Michael now sees things the other way around, because a lot of his competitiveness in those days was down to the working relationship he and Ferrari had with Bridgestone, one to which nobody else had access.
Now there's a standard tyre, it's down to him and Mercedes to get it working properly, not point the finger at the supplier."

#18957 as65p

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Posted 03 May 2012 - 11:16

Who was he? :p


The man who designed the first F1 car your man drove, no less. Come to think of it, he probably disliked MS from the go and sabotaged his clutch... :)

#18958 MikeTekRacing

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Posted 03 May 2012 - 11:18

In the mind of a schumacher worshipper, an F1 engineer's experience of events is just heresay.

Gary Anderson on the 'sad' hypocrite

"He is a professional racing driver, and it's all about looking after your tyres. You do that by getting the right balance on the car.
When I was involved with Bridgestone tyres with Jordan in the early 2000s, in the middle of the tyre war with Michelin, Schumacher and Ferrari had tyres we were not even allowed to look at.
They cost so much money that Bridgestone could not afford to supply them to everyone. And whenever we did have an opportunity to run a derivative of those tyres, our lap times were much, much better.
It's a bit sad that Michael now sees things the other way around, because a lot of his competitiveness in those days was down to the working relationship he and Ferrari had with Bridgestone, one to which nobody else had access.
Now there's a standard tyre, it's down to him and Mercedes to get it working properly, not point the finger at the supplier."

what Gary misses out is that the Michelins on the compettion were at the same freak level of costs and performance

#18959 Diablobb81

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Posted 03 May 2012 - 11:19

are you talking to yourself mr deluded?

Why were Benetton punished then? 500,000$ kop out of a fine IIRC

P.S Bridgestone eventually lost their huge advantage and Michelin won 2005 and 2006.


Wait, when where they punished for traction control? You might find out that there was no traction control software.

Bridgestone lost their advantage but they won the war. So their relation with Ferrari carried advantages but also risks. Hence nothing special in their relationship just a different approach in their war with Michelin.

So, again, i am right in everything i said.


And while what GA says about the Bridgestone might be true it's completely irrelevant. And the problem this year with tires is that their performance is outside the major influence of the driver.

Just to remind everyone : this year Michael started form the front rows in all the times he got into Q3. Talk about understanding tires.

Edited by Diablobb81, 03 May 2012 - 11:24.


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#18960 ali_M

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Posted 03 May 2012 - 11:20

It's always the same reaction from schumacher fans, aparantly everyone else is either jealous or sour. I've got news for you, some of us don't ride our egos on another driver's back.


See here? But what a piece of petulant arrogance ... :lol:

Winning championships in vastly superior cars? ... as if that's peculiar only to Michael. You say you don't Senna also won in superior machinery and always tried to be in a superior car and have support from his team. Ask Prost. :) I have nothing against Senna for this... what the hell does Prost expect in competition?

Schumacher 'demanding' preferential treatment? ... Oh please!!

Cheating? - M. Schumacher certainly isn't perfect and has indeed lost his head on a few occasions in the heat of competition. This does not take away from what he has achieved. Bully tactics? .... sour grapes and misery. Hakkinen was a man for it.

#18961 Mr2s

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Posted 03 May 2012 - 11:25

Please, don't feed the next new troll. He will soon come to the arguments in my signature. Nothing new.

Any time you are out of arguments, you can resort to Adelaide '94, Jerez '97 and Monaco '06.


The irony of having Adelaide '94 in your sig, is that for all the years of posts on forums and before that usenet, I've yet to see one michael schumacher fan actually back michael's version of events. They all make up their own version, to suit the arguments that conclude that he is just a insecure (as conformed by Jean Todt) petulant character. Now turned hypocrite.

#18962 Mr2s

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Posted 03 May 2012 - 11:26

See here? But what a piece of petulant arrogance ... :lol:

Winning championships in vastly superior cars? ... as if that's peculiar only to Michael. You say you don't Senna also won in superior machinery and always tried to be in a superior car and have support from his team. Ask Prost. :) I have nothing against Senna for this... what the hell does Prost expect in competition?

Schumacher 'demanding' preferential treatment? ... Oh please!!

Cheating? - M. Schumacher certainly isn't perfect and has indeed lost his head on a few occasions in the heat of competition. This does not take away from what he has achieved. Bully tactics? .... sour grapes and misery. Hakkinen was a man for it.


For the love of god I'm not a Senna or Prost fan. :well:

#18963 Mr2s

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Posted 03 May 2012 - 11:33

Wait, when where they punished for traction control? You might find out that there was no traction control software.


Well duh! , that was the problem, they were fined $100,000 for not handing over their software when requested. They couldn't be caught. The other teams wernt stupid, just as they knew Benetton were cheating to help michael beat senna via pit stops.

#18964 fieraku

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Posted 03 May 2012 - 11:39

Schumi had more troubles with the(2010) Bridgestones than the Pirellis :wave: But he's a Racer and the only? one with balls, for speaking the truth and trying to save F1 from this "Show" "Entertainment" everyone is trying to sell. It's RACING FFS,petrol,oil,rubber and sweaty bastards doing 200mph.NOT choreographed ballet.


I wanna add that Schu just became my Hero.

#18965 Diablobb81

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Posted 03 May 2012 - 11:40

Well duh! , that was the problem, they were fined $100,000 for not handing over their software when requested. They couldn't be caught. The other teams wernt stupid, just as they knew Benetton were cheating to help michael beat senna via pit stops.


Except that they gave the code later. Still no traction control.

#18966 aditya-now

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Posted 03 May 2012 - 11:45

Enough of the Senna/Schumacher or Hill/Schumacher arguments which have been had time and time again.


It is indeed amazing that we always have to revert to Senna/Schumacher or Hill/Schumacher.

Let's focus on 2012: what is wrong with Schumi? He has but 5,72% of the points of Nico, and he is hitting
out on the tires. Nico is comfortably sixth in the standings, with a win to his tally and no complaining about
the tires.

Everyone has to deal with the same tires - is Michael missing the times when he had tailor-made tires adjusted
to his very own driving style??

Although I am critical of Michael, I thought that after the second half season last year and after the improvements
on the Merc this year, that surely a final win of Michael was on the cards....and now this whining and underperforming.
Interpreting the signals Ross has given so far this is the last year we will see Michael in a Mercedes cockpit.
His performance this year is, at least in results, even less impressive than 2010 so far.

#18967 Diablobb81

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Posted 03 May 2012 - 11:50

It is indeed amazing that we always have to revert to Senna/Schumacher or Hill/Schumacher.

Let's focus on 2012: what is wrong with Schumi? He has but 5,72% of the points of Nico, and he is hitting
out on the tires. Nico is comfortably sixth in the standings, with a win to his tally and no complaining about
the tires.

Everyone has to deal with the same tires - is Michael missing the times when he had tailor-made tires adjusted
to his very own driving style??

Although I am critical of Michael, I thought that after the second half season last year and after the improvements
on the Merc this year, that surely a final win of Michael was on the cards....and now this whining and underperforming.
Interpreting the signals Ross has given so far this is the last year we will see Michael in a Mercedes cockpit.
His performance this year is, at least in results, even less impressive than 2010 so far.

Front rows quali's
2 DNF's from podium positions
1 non-fault incident which dropped him at the back of the field
1 technical problem in the quali - started from back of the grid


He's doing great with the tires, he has no luck though. Good enough?

Edited by Diablobb81, 03 May 2012 - 11:50.


#18968 Mr2s

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Posted 03 May 2012 - 11:51

Except that they gave the code later. Still no traction control.


There wouldn't have been much point keeping it 3 weeks and leaving the TC code in there, would there :rotfl:
A code that they admitting to developing in testing to boot.

#18969 Mr2s

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Posted 03 May 2012 - 11:53

Front rows quali's
2 DNF's from podium positions
1 non-fault incident which dropped him at the back of the field
1 technical problem in the quali - started from back of the grid


He's doing great with the tires, he has no luck though. Good enough?


Now the car has improved, so has the greatest driver of all time, wierd that. Not what to do about that pesky team mate?

#18970 LiJu914

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Posted 03 May 2012 - 11:54

It is indeed amazing that we always have to revert to Senna/Schumacher or Hill/Schumacher.

Let's focus on 2012: what is wrong with Schumi? He has but 5,72% of the points of Nico, and he is hitting
out on the tires. Nico is comfortably sixth in the standings, with a win to his tally and no complaining about
the tires.

Everyone has to deal with the same tires - is Michael missing the times when he had tailor-made tires adjusted
to his very own driving style??

Although I am critical of Michael, I thought that after the second half season last year and after the improvements
on the Merc this year, that surely a final win of Michael was on the cards....and now this whining and underperforming.
Interpreting the signals Ross has given so far this is the last year we will see Michael in a Mercedes cockpit.
His performance this year is, at least in results, even less impressive than 2010 so far.


What´s wrong with him is, that he did not finish in Australia and China due to a gearbox-failure & a pit stop-blunder, fell at the back of the grid in Malaysia after Grosjean hit him and had to start from 22 in Bahrain after a DRS-malfunction + a gearbox-change. He´s lost it and should go home...

Edited by LiJu914, 03 May 2012 - 11:57.


#18971 Diablobb81

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Posted 03 May 2012 - 11:54

There wouldn't have been much point keeping it 3 weeks and leaving the TC code in there, would there :rotfl:
A code that they admitting to developing in testing to boot.


Except that the launch control software was still there. They forgot to eliminate the evidence. :eek:


Now the car has improved, so has the greatest driver of all time, wierd that. Not what to do about that pesky team mate?


Actually he is steadily improving since 2010. Not bad for a 43 year old.

Edited by Diablobb81, 03 May 2012 - 11:56.


#18972 Sakae

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Posted 03 May 2012 - 11:56

It is indeed amazing that we always have to revert to Senna/Schumacher or Hill/Schumacher.

Let's focus on 2012: what is wrong with Schumi? He has but 5,72% of the points of Nico, and he is hitting
out on the tires. Nico is comfortably sixth in the standings, with a win to his tally and no complaining about
the tires.

Everyone has to deal with the same tires - is Michael missing the times when he had tailor-made tires adjusted
to his very own driving style??

Although I am critical of Michael, I thought that after the second half season last year and after the improvements
on the Merc this year, that surely a final win of Michael was on the cards....and now this whining and underperforming.
Interpreting the signals Ross has given so far this is the last year we will see Michael in a Mercedes cockpit.
His performance this year is, at least in results, even less impressive than 2010 so far.

When did Michael asked Pirelli to make tires to suit his style? We see this repeteadly on this BB. You missed his point, big time, you make a big issue out of it, yet your critique is worthless, especially when you conveniently throw in the points without actully considering that low score is not just because of tires. (As with the previous poster).

#18973 spacekid

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Posted 03 May 2012 - 12:16

It is indeed amazing that we always have to revert to Senna/Schumacher or Hill/Schumacher.

Let's focus on 2012: what is wrong with Schumi? He has but 5,72% of the points of Nico, and he is hitting
out on the tires. Nico is comfortably sixth in the standings, with a win to his tally and no complaining about
the tires.

Everyone has to deal with the same tires - is Michael missing the times when he had tailor-made tires adjusted
to his very own driving style??

Although I am critical of Michael, I thought that after the second half season last year and after the improvements
on the Merc this year, that surely a final win of Michael was on the cards....and now this whining and underperforming.
Interpreting the signals Ross has given so far this is the last year we will see Michael in a Mercedes cockpit.
His performance this year is, at least in results, even less impressive than 2010 so far.


Thank you, aditya-now, for making a post that so perfectly encapsulates why reasonable discussion on this thread is impossible.

Michael has out qualified Nico twice, been clearly outqualified once, and had a car failure in the other quali. In races he's had a gearbox failure, a wheel nut failure and been hit behind by another driver.

And now here you are to tell us this is proof that he is underperforming. Whats the point in even trying to debate this with you?

There is a big difference between Michael publicly whining and demanding custom made tyres, and Michael saying that a form of racing where the drivers cannot push the cars to the limit for a single lap during the race because of the tyre wear issues is frustrating for him. Other drivers have said as much, though not as publicly. You said Nico has not complained about the tyres - funny, I think he has. He definately said he wasn't able to push on them at all in China. That may not be interpreted as complaining due to the fact he won, but its making the exact same point.

But again whats the point? Have you even watched the races, or do you just look at the finishing positions and make your mind up from there?

#18974 ivand911

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Posted 03 May 2012 - 12:17

http://img4.auto-mot...8705-591576.jpg
Ooh, Michael if I hear "challenge" word from you , I will be very unhappy.

Edited by ivand911, 03 May 2012 - 12:17.


#18975 aditya-now

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Posted 03 May 2012 - 14:07

But again whats the point? Have you even watched the races, or do you just look at the finishing positions and make your mind up from there?


What`s the point?

"Michael is a bit different" - http://www.motorspor...-derek-warwick/

...if you never noticed.

#18976 puxanando

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Posted 03 May 2012 - 14:18

Schumacher visits Pirelli at Mugello

Germany’s Auto Motor und Sport said the Mercedes driver’s meeting with Pirelli lasted half an hour.

“I can imagine what was talked about,” Timo Glock grinned.

Hembery said: “Michael was with our technicians and Mercedes engineers, I do not know what was said.”

Another Pirelli employee insisted: “Nothing special to report.”


WEB>>> :drunk:

#18977 ivand911

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Posted 03 May 2012 - 14:22

"Hembery does, however, have some good news to break to Schumacher: “In 2013 our tyres will be even softer.”

As for the extreme degradation, “We are sticking with our philosophy of exciting races, until something else is asked of us”, Hembery insisted."

And where is the good news? Softer tyres? Are this Pirelli guys crazy? Bigger lottery expected.
Yeah, it is time.

Edited by ivand911, 03 May 2012 - 14:29.


#18978 FlashMaster

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Posted 03 May 2012 - 14:23

Why this silly smiley? I bet Alfred Alfonso also visited them.

#18979 aditya-now

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Posted 03 May 2012 - 14:36

"Hembery does, however, have some good news to break to Schumacher: “In 2013 our tyres will be even softer.”

As for the extreme degradation, “We are sticking with our philosophy of exciting races, until something else is asked of us”, Hembery insisted."

And where is the good news? Softer tyres? Are this Pirelli guys crazy? Bigger lottery expected.
Yeah, it is time.


Softer tyres - not crazy at all - it rewards those who can manage their tires. Some can, while others can't. Manage their tires.
Some did while others did not. Manage the tire maker that exclusively supplied their team.


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#18980 ivand911

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Posted 03 May 2012 - 14:45

Softer tyres - not crazy at all - it rewards those who can manage their tires. Some can, while others can't. Manage their tires.
Some did while others did not. Manage the tire maker that exclusively supplied their team.

This is F1, not Formula tyre management. Aditya I didn't know you like fake F1. You must be thrilled this year. 20 years ago when MS started they didn't play tyre management games. And they pushed a lot. They fight each other. Where in the last race everyone keep their positions. If that was not processional I don't know what it is. But, there is thread about this.

Edited by ivand911, 03 May 2012 - 14:47.


#18981 Sakae

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Posted 03 May 2012 - 14:53

This is F1, not Formula tyre management. Aditya I didn't know you like fake F1. You must be thrilled this year. 20 years ago when MS started they didn't play tyre management games. And they pushed a lot. They fight each other. Where in the last race everyone keep their positions. If that was not processional I don't know what it is. But, there is thread about this.

From his posts it is obvious that he has really not made any effort to understand substance what Michael was stating, and in here he is merely for kicks being contrarian to Schumacher as he is piling up one misinformation upon another. Why argue with him then?

#18982 iakhtar

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Posted 03 May 2012 - 14:58

My granny could manage these tyres best of anyone, she drives nice and slow and hates racing.

#18983 aditya-now

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Posted 03 May 2012 - 15:15

This is F1, not Formula tyre management. Aditya I didn't know you like fake F1. You must be thrilled this year. 20 years ago when MS started they didn't play tyre management games. And they pushed a lot. They fight each other. Where in the last race everyone keep their positions. If that was not processional I don't know what it is. But, there is thread about this.


I did not see Kimi keep his position, in fact, he went from 11th to 2nd. Neither did Michael, he went from 17th to 10th. However, I see where you are coming from, Nico stayed 5th.

To be serious: it is amazing to me that you call any 2012 race processional, whereas many of the races from 1994 till 2004 were processional races. So probably as soon as Michael is leading it is not processional to you - who can argue with that.


From his posts it is obvious that he has really not made any effort to understand substance what Michael was stating, and in here he is merely for kicks being contrarian to Schumacher as he is piling up one misinformation upon another. Why argue with him then?


It's not about fake F1, I am following the sport since May 1970. It's about fake Schumacher - when and under which circumstances was Michael successful and when and under which circumstances was/is Michael failing.

To get more perspective, if you are even interested, please read this:

http://www.motorspor...her-get-a-grip/

Get a grip, Sakae, get a grip, Ivan. And of course, get a grip, Schumi!



#18984 ivand911

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Posted 03 May 2012 - 15:35

I did not see Kimi keep his position, in fact, he went from 11th to 2nd. Neither did Michael, he went from 17th to 10th. However, I see where you are coming from, Nico stayed 5th.

To be serious: it is amazing to me that you call any 2012 race processional, whereas many of the races from 1994 till 2004 were processional races. So probably as soon as Michael is leading it is not processional to you - who can argue with that.

Kimi? The guy was faster that other around him only because this other guys were slowed artificially by the tyres. Is that the racing you like? In China situation was the opposite. Do you like artificially slowed drivers? But, when Kimi catch Vettel what happen? Nothing. He keep his position, even team give him second, because he didn't have chance to pass RG. How many laps we have Alonso, Lewis, Massa , MS ,Perez just driving in group without slightest passing attempt? I thought you were Senna fan? I guess not. He would laugh at current F1. The guy was fighting for every tenth on the race track, MS too. Now they throw away seconds. To have constant speed on shitty tyres.

Edited by ivand911, 03 May 2012 - 15:47.


#18985 aditya-now

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Posted 03 May 2012 - 16:02

Kimi? The guy was faster that other around him only because this other guys were slowed artificially by the tyres. Is that the racing you like? In China situation was the opposite. Do you like artificially slowed drivers? But, when Kimi catch Vettel what happen? Nothing. He keep his position, even team give him second, because he didn't have chance to pass RG. How many laps we have Alonso, Lewis, Massa , MS ,Perez just driving in group without slightest passing attempt? I thought you were Senna fan? I guess not. He would laugh at current F1. The guy was fighting for every tenth on the race track, MS too. Now they throw away seconds. To have constant speed on shitty tyres.


To be sure, Ivan: if Michael were winning some of these races, you would not have to write such observations. What you really want is that Michael wins. If he does not, you complain about whatever seems useful to you to divert the attention from Michael's failures.

To quote Paul Fearnley (as you surely had no time to look at the link):

"Schumacher and Ross Brawn were the undisputed masters of pedal-to-the-carbon fibre sprint-stop-sprints when they were at Ferrari. Their domination, however, though impressive and praiseworthy, didn’t often make for compelling racing. Indeed, I’d be amazed if Michael could list all of his victories from that period, in chronological order or otherwise.

So don’t worry, Michael: we were aware of you and your team’s 2012 Pirelli problems even before you voiced them. Should you score your 92nd win this season, we will, therefore, place it above at least, say, 79 or 82 of your others.

We also know that you are in good company. Looking after your tyres, maximising any advantage that they might proffer, are invaluable skills as old as motor racing. Renault’s Michelins, on newfangled, quick-change detachable rims, undoubtedly gave it an edge at the 1906 French GP (above). Blue-blooded Prussian tyro Manfred von Brauchitsch was spectacular over a lap and caught the eye more than did his Mercedes-Benz team-mate Rudi Caracciola, denied that final tenth by injuries sustained at Monaco in 1933. But canny ‘Caratsch’ was the go-to guy in the races, in an era when tyre technology was pricked and deflated by a sudden spike of horsepower. Stirling Moss’s cheeky Cooper crossed the finish line victorious in Argentina in 1958 running on the canvas of its Continentals.

.......As racing aficionados, we could ask for no more.

So get a grip, Michael!"


That's at the core of the matter - it is about being intelligent, strategy-savy and supreme in controlling "when to give it your all, and when to hold back all" (as Ayrton Senna so aptly explained).

Michael can only give it his all when circumstances are controlled in his favor. When he is in control. Now Michael is not in control and has to race the other pilots on equal terms. And so - he is whining....

Edited by aditya-now, 03 May 2012 - 16:06.


#18986 spacekid

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Posted 03 May 2012 - 16:10

Michael can only give it his all when circumstances are controlled in his favor. When he is in control. Now Michael is not in control and has to race the other pilots on equal terms. And so - he is whining....


If you've been watching since 1970 then you must have seen Schumi also in 1991, when he made an immediate impact and had some good races for Benneton, in 1992, in 1996, 1997, 1998 etc... Im not convinced that everything was controlled in his favour then, but he was still supreme.

At 43 he just isn't the same driver. It doesn't seem reasonable to look at his driving for Mercedes (which this season has been much, much better than you are giving him credit for) and say its proof that he just got lucky or wasn't that great in his prime. Its like seeing Alonso driving in 2025 and if he struggles saying well he clearly can't have been very good in 2012 then, because clearly he is.

#18987 ivand911

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Posted 03 May 2012 - 16:11

To be sure, Ivan: if Michael were winning some of these races, you would not have to write such observations. What you really want is that Michael wins. If he does not, you complain about whatever seems useful to you to divert the attention from Michael's failures.

To quote Paul Fearnley (as you surely had no time to look at the link):

"Schumacher and Ross Brawn were the undisputed masters of pedal-to-the-carbon fibre sprint-stop-sprints when they were at Ferrari. Their domination, however, though impressive and praiseworthy, didn’t often make for compelling racing. Indeed, I’d be amazed if Michael could list all of his victories from that period, in chronological order or otherwise.

So don’t worry, Michael: we were aware of you and your team’s 2012 Pirelli problems even before you voiced them. Should you score your 92nd win this season, we will, therefore, place it above at least, say, 79 or 82 of your others.

We also know that you are in good company. Looking after your tyres, maximising any advantage that they might proffer, are invaluable skills as old as motor racing. Renault’s Michelins, on newfangled, quick-change detachable rims, undoubtedly gave it an edge at the 1906 French GP (above). Blue-blooded Prussian tyro Manfred von Brauchitsch was spectacular over a lap and caught the eye more than did his Mercedes-Benz team-mate Rudi Caracciola, denied that final tenth by injuries sustained at Monaco in 1933. But canny ‘Caratsch’ was the go-to guy in the races, in an era when tyre technology was pricked and deflated by a sudden spike of horsepower. Stirling Moss’s cheeky Cooper crossed the finish line victorious in Argentina in 1958 running on the canvas of its Continentals.

.......As racing aficionados, we could ask for no more.

So get a grip, Michael!"


That's at the core of the matter - it is about being intelligent, strategy-savy and supreme in controlling "when to give it your all, and when to hold back all" (as Ayrton Senna so aptly explained).

Michael can only give it his all when circumstances are controlled in his favor. When he is in control. Now Michael is not in control and has to race the other pilots on equal terms. And so - he is whining....

Quoting totally unknown Paul Fearnley, doesn't make you right. That asshole is nobody. Get a grip aditya! Be creative. I don't remember in 90ties , they to talk about tyre management? Or commentators to mention it. See 1992 races and tell me when they drive less that 100% to save tyres? You remember Michael first win, I am sure it something you cherish. Good old days.

Edited by ivand911, 03 May 2012 - 16:15.


#18988 aditya-now

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Posted 03 May 2012 - 16:25

If you've been watching since 1970 then you must have seen Schumi also in 1991, when he made an immediate impact and had some good races for Benneton, in 1992, in 1996, 1997, 1998 etc... Im not convinced that everything was controlled in his favour then, but he was still supreme.

At 43 he just isn't the same driver. It doesn't seem reasonable to look at his driving for Mercedes (which this season has been much, much better than you are giving him credit for) and say its proof that he just got lucky or wasn't that great in his prime. Its like seeing Alonso driving in 2025 and if he struggles saying well he clearly can't have been very good in 2012 then, because clearly he is.


What you are saying holds much truth - qualifying in Spa 1991 was quite something (although the Jordan was not as bad as many thought) and truly Michael's 1990s races rank far above his 2000s races - which is what Paul Fearnley was indicating as well in his article.

I get the feeling that the whole tire rhetorics is the beginning of Michael's retirement announcement. Seems that tires retire Michael or at least will serve as an excuse when the time comes.

"I did my best in my second F1 career and helped the team up to the top. Unfortunately, for me, because of poor tire rulings, this is not F1 anymore, or the F1 I used to know. Therefore I am retiring at the end of the year and wish all the best to the team and Nico."

#18989 aditya-now

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Posted 03 May 2012 - 16:29

Quoting totally unknown Paul Fearnley, doesn't make you right. That asshole is nobody.


Well, Ivan, first of all, he is maybe unknown to you, but not a nobody, at least not in the racing community: http://www.motorspor.../paul-fearnley/
Surely Paul has more scope on the history of the sport than most posters here on the BB to put Schumacher's ramblings into perspective.

Secondly, to call anyone an a..hole is poor style. Today I am surprised by you, Ivan, I have to say.


#18990 jbarokF1

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Posted 03 May 2012 - 16:35

Kimi? The guy was faster that other around him only because this other guys were slowed artificially by the tyres. Is that the racing you like? In China situation was the opposite. Do you like artificially slowed drivers? But, when Kimi catch Vettel what happen? Nothing. He keep his position, even team give him second, because he didn't have chance to pass RG. How many laps we have Alonso, Lewis, Massa , MS ,Perez just driving in group without slightest passing attempt? I thought you were Senna fan? I guess not. He would laugh at current F1. The guy was fighting for every tenth on the race track, MS too. Now they throw away seconds. To have constant speed on shitty tyres.



I agree that Kimi was faster than other drivers with used tyres..But do you also agree that in previous seasons one driver passes another driver just simply because he has a much faster car?? so is this artificial too?

#18991 Atonal

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Posted 03 May 2012 - 16:35

Its good to see you Aditya.
He's a veteran but I disagree with almost everything he says, always! :)
But that goes without saying, any one who is tied to Senna can never acknowledge Schumacher. The reverse relation is just as strong. That's instinctive hostility and hostile intent for you right there.

#18992 Urawa

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Posted 03 May 2012 - 16:37

What´s up with Michael? He has only 5.283326387373733729347% of Nico´s points :(
Yeah, what´s up...

#18993 aditya-now

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Posted 03 May 2012 - 16:42

What´s up with Michael? He has only 5.283326387373733729347% of Nico´s points :(
Yeah, what´s up...


Luckily you miscalculated - he has only 5,7142 % of Nico's points, so the situation is not as dire (5,28 %) as you paint it. ;)

@Atonal - you acknowledge my posting here and call me a veteran - with only a few posts to your name? What was your old avatar and what happened to it? Why the new personality? :wave:


#18994 Mr2s

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Posted 03 May 2012 - 16:56

. Its like seeing Alonso driving in 2025 and if he struggles saying well he clearly can't have been very good in 2012 then, because clearly he is.


What a ridiculous comparison!

Err no, as Alonso has been truly impressive in not the best car. Having only won 2 WDCs ( how many drivers have done that in a non dominant car) yet highly thought of as a driver around the paddock and always will be.
In the second half of Lewis's WDC year, Alonso scored the most points in a god aweful car. Forget the incident with Piquet at Singapore, there was a second Yellow that people like to forget that saw Hamilton and Alonso bunched up again, Alonso just pulled away from the WDC to be.
Shumacher has never driven a bad car, he joined Ferrari when they were 3rd best team to boot. Alonso joined when they were 4th and did an amazing job. Thats why when Alonso struggles aged 43, people wont look back and say situations were always in his favour. If they were, he would have won a WDC for McLaren, taken up the offer to join Brawn or Red Bull and won at least another, not to mention joining Ferrari earlier and winning another instead of Jean Todt returning a favour to Massa.

Schumacher's age wouldnt be the slightest bit of a hindrance, had he the dominant Ferrari again.
His vastly superior cars being worth much more in lap time, than he loses now for being a couple of years older from when Mansell got his last pole (shocking the young schumacher at the time)

Edited by Mr2s, 03 May 2012 - 16:57.


#18995 Atonal

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Posted 03 May 2012 - 16:57

I have been following the board for years now but only as a silent spectator. This just might be Michael's last year and before he leaves forever I felt it my duty to add some words of support for someone I have admired for a long time.

I have followed your posts and enjoy them. You are one of the more reasonable posters.
For one positive, you add three negatives for Michael. That's just how I formulate my unwritten responses for Senna and Alonso :) Something of the self is involved when we attach ourselves to different drivers and it takes a magnanimous spirit to disparage the self when he appreciates someone hateful even though it is in small doses. :)

#18996 Boing 2

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Posted 03 May 2012 - 16:57

I do wonder what treatment Barrichello would have recieved in here had he been struggling with the tyres and complaining about it. I very much doubt he would have been hailed as a brave and ballsy man defending his sport....

#18997 jbarokF1

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Posted 03 May 2012 - 17:02

I do wonder what treatment Barrichello would have recieved in here had he been struggling with the tyres and complaining about it. I very much doubt he would have been hailed as a brave and ballsy man defending his sport....


Exactly!

All this talk about drivers not being able to push 100%...we only started talking about it after MS mentioned it. And prior to that did we know that drivers can not push 100% because of their tyres? No, we did not..

Edited by jbarokF1, 03 May 2012 - 17:07.


#18998 Urawa

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Posted 03 May 2012 - 17:05

Who´s struggling?

#18999 spacekid

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Posted 03 May 2012 - 17:06

What you are saying holds much truth - qualifying in Spa 1991 was quite something (although the Jordan was not as bad as many thought) and truly Michael's 1990s races rank far above his 2000s races - which is what Paul Fearnley was indicating as well in his article.

I get the feeling that the whole tire rhetorics is the beginning of Michael's retirement announcement. Seems that tires retire Michael or at least will serve as an excuse when the time comes.

"I did my best in my second F1 career and helped the team up to the top. Unfortunately, for me, because of poor tire rulings, this is not F1 anymore, or the F1 I used to know. Therefore I am retiring at the end of the year and wish all the best to the team and Nico."


Actually his quali, as good as it was, wasn't the main thing for me. You're right - the Jordan had already proven itself capable that season - its kinda like the Sauber in Perez's hands this year, in the right hands at the right time the car can do something. For me it was his first race with Benneton at Italy that he made his mark, really punchy stuff. He was very good immediatly, and with no special advantages. Any driver who came into the sport mid this season and put in those 1991 drives against that competition would be hailed as a new talent, and rightly so.

I don't think its fair to dismiss Schumi's abilities in the 2000's - sure the Ferrari team were a machine, but he was instrumental in that and still put in some great drives. Heck even in 2006 when he was on the wane, I don't think you can say there are many on the grid who could have showed his heart and ability in Brazil and China. He was still damned good at times. Alonso and Hamilton could have done it, maybe Vettel. Over 15 years Michael put in more special drives than you give him credit for. Even at Monaco after his ridiculous qualifying he put in a race not many on the grid could have achieved.

To some extent Michaels career stats and success seem to overshadow just how fine a racing driver he was at his peak. Top 10 of all time in my opinion. I don't think its reasonable to look at his Mercedes performances and dismiss all of that so easily. If anything I think the fact that he is still any cop at all at 43 when he has clearly lost some ability is remarkable. He's looked good so far this year.

Regards the tyres - I think this has already been said - he isn't whinging for his own sake, he is commenting freely that he can't push at all during the race and he doesn't like it. He isn't alone, there's plenty of discussion on this. Michael has been one to speak out before if he doesn't like the style of racing - see his comments after the 2010 Bahrain GP. He may well retire at the end of this year - he is not getting any younger or any better, his contract is up and lets face it he's lasted longer than anyone else in modern times.

Edited by spacekid, 03 May 2012 - 17:11.


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#19000 Diablobb81

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Posted 03 May 2012 - 17:08

Who´s struggling?


+1

No one bothers to answer that. You know what they say about lie repeated often enough.

All this talk about drivers not being able to push 100%...we only started talking about it after MS mentioned it. And prior to that did we know that drivers can not push 100% because of their tyres? No, we did not..


So what is important? That we don't know about the inner workings of F1 or that we might find out and discuss issues that might change our view of the sport? Maybe Michael just talks because he wants different tires. But what if he is right?

Edited by Diablobb81, 03 May 2012 - 17:11.