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Michael Schumacher (merged)


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#19051 aditya-now

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Posted 04 May 2012 - 10:07

Yeah, Michael's lack of Jedi powers has been exposed. Something knew you learn from "fans"every day.


Well, in the majority of his Benetton and Ferrari years Michael seemed to have those Jedi powers. I wonder where he left them...  ;)


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#19052 ali_M

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Posted 04 May 2012 - 10:11

And it's pretty clear you have not read the numerous post where I have said that he's had a run of bad luck and nothing more. The point I was trying to make was I highly doubt that this debate would have been so heated had the results between Shumacher and Rosberg been reversed. My hypothesis is that if it were Nico on 2 points sans results and race wins and doing the complaining about not being able to push 100% then I am quite sure he would have been vilified around these parts as being a whiner.....


I guarantee you that the debating would have been just as heated. It's just that the points being argued would be different. The Schumi haters will always find a way to justify their feelings. If Schumi had won in China, credit would not have been given to him. We will never know if he would have made the same comments in Bahrain after a win in China. I don't see why he definitely wouldn't have, but the Schumi haters will always claim that he would not have, so...

#19053 LiJu914

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Posted 04 May 2012 - 10:19

Whichever way you look at it, making tires work in their optimum bandwidth is what is required of a premium driver. Hard tires: heat them sufficiently. Soft tires: nurse them. Again, being in his 19th season Michael should be more than capable in doing this, it surprises me how in 2012 Nico is much more successful than Michael in handling the situation.


Whichever way i look at it, your jumping just from one point to another, as you´re running out of arguments in your little campaign here.
Between 94 and 2009 you also had to make the tyres work. That wasn´t your point at all. You presented it as 50-93 and 11-12 had pretty much the same circumstances regarding tyres and that 94-09 was all different. Well and that´s plain wrong.
And once again: Nico isn´t handling the situation much more successful (unitl now) as he was slower in the first two races(+quali) and also not faster in Bahrain...that leaves China. The situation in the WDC-standings has very little to do with the tyres.

But as that argument was discussed often enough here in the last few days and used to ignore it from time to time, when it seemed comfortable for your "argumentation", i think you can stop decorating you posts with some artificial concern for MSC.

Edited by LiJu914, 04 May 2012 - 10:22.


#19054 ali_M

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Posted 04 May 2012 - 10:24

“It’s been a bit exaggerated,” world champion Vettel, referring to the reaction to Schumacher’s comments, is quoted by Sport Bild.

“Ultimately, we all have the same tyres, but of course as a driver you always want more grip, whether from the tyres or from the car.

“It is in our nature to want more — more especially than the others,” he smiled.

WEB>>>


Vettel's comments are definitely reasonable. Clearly they aren't genuinely driving around the track as if there was a safety car deployed. We are all aware of the exaggeration made. Afterall, the cars are going just 4-6 or so seconds off pole time. Slow, but definitely not as slow as a safety car. :)

#19055 aditya-now

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Posted 04 May 2012 - 10:30

Whichever way i look at it, your jumping just from one point to another, as you´re running out of arguments in your little campaign here.
Between 94 and 2009 you also had to make the tyres work. That wasn´t your point at all. You presented it as 50-93 and 11-12 had pretty much the same circumstances regarding tyres and that 94-09 was all different. Well and that´s plain wrong.
And once again: Nico isn´t handling the situation much more successful (unitl now) as he was slower in the first two races(+quali) and also not faster in Bahrain...that leaves China. The situation in the WDC-standings has very little to do with the tyres.

But as that argument was discussed often enough here in the last few days and used to ignore it from time to time, when it seemed comfortable for your "argumentation", i think you can stop decorating you posts with some artificial concern for MSC.


As we seem to come from very different backgrounds, here one last thought: surely also between 94-09 the capability to work the tires was crucial. What was and is significant is that Michael from 1994 onwards had the advantage of special technology (Benetton) and special tire contracts (Ferrari) which helped him in being successful. The only time when these "advantages" where not a given (e.g. 2005) Michael failed miserably.

Therefore, to me his first win in Spa 1992 still holds a much higher pedigree than many of his engineered races in the most successful part of his career. Also I would like to point to Brazil 2006 as well as China 2006, when we saw the real Michael. sans the help of some special "arrangements"....

Let me not get started on how after Spa 2006 Renault's Michelin tires were suddenly outlawed by the FIA and how Alonso was given a penalty for dangerously impeding Massa in Monza from more than a 100 metres distance....these were the last instances of Michael receiving special "assistance".

Since then Michael is one among equals and not the first among equals any more. And it shows. He does not suit the system anymore, Vettel brings much more these days. Always watch out for whom Bernie favors - for a long time that was Michael.

Edited by aditya-now, 04 May 2012 - 10:31.


#19056 Diablobb81

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Posted 04 May 2012 - 10:33

Special technology, special tire, special arrangements? What a load of drivel.


#19057 ali_M

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Posted 04 May 2012 - 10:39

Since then Michael is one among equals and not the first among equals any more. And it shows. He does not suit the system anymore, Vettel brings much more these days. Always watch out for whom Bernie favors - for a long time that was Michael.


Bernie is a shrewd money maker and investor. Of course he'd favour Vettel at this time!! No news there. That's a zero point as many of your others....

Edited by ali_M, 04 May 2012 - 10:39.


#19058 LiJu914

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Posted 04 May 2012 - 10:42

Special technology, special tire, special arrangements? What a load of drivel.


No it´s quite obvious that MSC had a twelve years long lucky streak (even though roughly half of the time hadn´t the best car/tyre-combination). :stoned:

#19059 spacekid

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Posted 04 May 2012 - 12:05

I can't help but wonder how some of you would have reacted had it been Nico 33 points down and complaining about the tires and not Schumacher. I sense that it may have gone along the lines of, "Rosberg should just man up and quit being so negative, Michael's adapted well............."


Nico did complain about the tyres. After his win in China he said he couldn't push for a single lap.

Please show me two things
a) Where Michael is complaining that he has had poor results this year because of the tyres?
b) Your proof that Michael is indeed struggling with tyers this year.

its no good saying saying 'oh in other posts I said he's had bad luck' you are clearly insinuating that Michael 33 points behind because of the Pirellis and whining because of it, so where's your evidence this is why he spoke about the tyres? Have you actually heard or read his comments?

To help you out, I'll direct you towards race pace in Australia, Malaysia and Bahrain, and quali in Australia and Malaysia.

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#19060 spacekid

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Posted 04 May 2012 - 12:05

No it´s quite obvious that MSC had a twelve years long lucky streak (even though roughly half of the time hadn´t the best car/tyre-combination). :stoned:


Quite obvious to anyone who never watched those races, but has read about them on the internet.

#19061 sharo

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Posted 04 May 2012 - 13:17

Of course, everyone is entitled to his own opinion, interpretation (and even twisting) of facts and evens, but has to keep in mind the saying that age is not a guarantee and it's never too late to become a laughing stock.

#19062 RacingReporter

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Posted 04 May 2012 - 14:58

As we seem to come from very different backgrounds, here one last thought: surely also between 94-09 the capability to work the tires was crucial. What was and is significant is that Michael from 1994 onwards had the advantage of special technology (Benetton) and special tire contracts (Ferrari) which helped him in being successful. The only time when these "advantages" where not a given (e.g. 2005) Michael failed miserably.

Therefore, to me his first win in Spa 1992 still holds a much higher pedigree than many of his engineered races in the most successful part of his career. Also I would like to point to Brazil 2006 as well as China 2006, when we saw the real Michael. sans the help of some special "arrangements"....

Let me not get started on how after Spa 2006 Renault's Michelin tires were suddenly outlawed by the FIA and how Alonso was given a penalty for dangerously impeding Massa in Monza from more than a 100 metres distance....these were the last instances of Michael receiving special "assistance".

Since then Michael is one among equals and not the first among equals any more. And it shows. He does not suit the system anymore, Vettel brings much more these days. Always watch out for whom Bernie favors - for a long time that was Michael.

I lost it at Spa 2006 :lol: Good cop, bad cop, it's not working here.

#19063 FenderJaguar

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Posted 04 May 2012 - 15:18

Maybe he wrote too fast? But it is a valid talking point anyway. The thing he means is something most people understand anyway. But not here...


#19064 spacekid

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Posted 04 May 2012 - 15:30

Michael is actually driving quite nicely this year.

But for some reason we don't seem to be able to move away from 'He's a cheat! He only won because he got FIA favours for 15 years!!'

Aditya - I truly can't tell if you believe everything you are writing, or just twisting the facts to suit yoru own agenda. The idea that Michael was receiving all of these special benefits you speak of during 96-99 for instance is simply laughable. When he had the amchinery to win, he won. That should not count against him. When he didn't have the machinery to win, sometimes he still won. What more can we expect from a racing driver?

Another interesting point - why is it that if Ferrari had an innovation later outlawed (flexi floor for instance) Michael was 'cheating' and its proof that Michael only won from special assistance, but when another team has an innovation later outlawed (Renaults mass damper) then Michael was 'cheating' and its more proof that he could only drive with special assistance.

Yes the forum is a place to debate all ideas and points of view etc, but this stuff over the last few pages has been done to death again and again. There is so much misinformation and twisting of facts it is unbelievable.

No matter how much you might hate the man, Michael has actually been driving well this year. I haven't seen him put a foot wrong. And yet what dominates the thread?

#19065 halifaxf1fan

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Posted 04 May 2012 - 15:55

here is what he said - where is the blame for his lack of results this year?? He's a racing driver - he wants to race as fast as he possibly can, not at 80% - THAT is what he was complaining about...no blame here that I can see...

QUOTE
The main thing I feel unhappy about is that everyone has to drive well below a driver's, and in particular, the car limits to maintain the tyres," Schumacher told BBC Radio 5.

"I just question whether the tyres should play such a big importance, or whether they should last a bit longer - and that you can drive at normal racing car speed and not cruise around like we have a Safety Car.

"If it would be a one-off car issue, then you could say it's up on us to deal with it," he added. "But basically it is everybody with maybe one or two exceptions. And if it is 80 percent of the field that has this problem, then maybe the tyre supplier should think about that."


Raelene, he is saying as far as I can understand that the tires are forcing him to drive well below his limits.

And then he continues to say that it is 80% of the drivers who have these problems thereby putting himself with the vast majority and then he calls for Pirelli to change things. It is fairly obvious to me that Schumacher is embarrassed at his standing right now and is using the tire issue to absolve himself of any responsibility especially where he is driving a race winning car and has just seen Raikkonen do very well at Bahrain. The timing was just too convenient. He is frustrated that's all.

Don't worry though if Shu does well in the next race he will be saying how great the tires are and how his great experience and skills allowed him to exploit them better than those not so great 80%! It is all just pr.

Edited by halifaxf1fan, 04 May 2012 - 16:04.


#19066 Schumacher7

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Posted 04 May 2012 - 16:34

Raelene, he is saying as far as I can understand that the tires are forcing him to drive well below his limits.

And then he continues to say that it is 80% of the drivers who have these problems thereby putting himself with the vast majority and then he calls for Pirelli to change things. It is fairly obvious to me that Schumacher is embarrassed at his standing right now and is using the tire issue to absolve himself of any responsibility especially where he is driving a race winning car and has just seen Raikkonen do very well at Bahrain. The timing was just too convenient. He is frustrated that's all.

Don't worry though if Shu does well in the next race he will be saying how great the tires are and how his great experience and skills allowed him to exploit them better than those not so great 80%! It is all just pr.

He's hardly one for excuses is he, besides what blame has he got anyway? Gearbox failure, hit by Grosjean, his wheel not being attached properly and then having a DRS failure on his Q1 lap at Bahrain, can't see where the blame he is trying to absolve himself from originates from, maybe you could point that out for me, but probably not. Also he said that the drivers are driving below their limits yes but particularly the cars limits, there wasn't any frustration in his voice, a lot was made out of quite a casual comment, he just suggested the idea that the tyres become more durable and allowed you to push more, an idea which has subsequently been echoed by other drivers.

#19067 Cavani

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Posted 04 May 2012 - 16:48

michael has the baddest luck of them all

#19068 ascension

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Posted 04 May 2012 - 18:02

michael has the baddest luck of them all

I have also noticed that about Schumacher, always really bad luck!


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#19069 Pamphlet

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Posted 04 May 2012 - 18:11

I have also noticed that about Schumacher, always really bad luck!


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Amusingly, he really has been unlucky since his return. 2010 does not count as he was destroyed by Rosberg fair and square regardless of whether we take MSC's misfortune into account, but it was quite apparent in 2011 and especially now.

#19070 Cavani

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Posted 04 May 2012 - 20:12

i mean 1st race gearbox failure
2nd race hit by grosjean
3rd race loose wheel
4th race unfunctioning drs

#19071 jj2728

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Posted 04 May 2012 - 20:34

Nico did complain about the tyres. After his win in China he said he couldn't push for a single lap.

Please show me two things
a) Where Michael is complaining that he has had poor results this year because of the tyres?
b) Your proof that Michael is indeed struggling with tyers this year.

its no good saying saying 'oh in other posts I said he's had bad luck' you are clearly insinuating that Michael 33 points behind because of the Pirellis and whining because of it, so where's your evidence this is why he spoke about the tyres? Have you actually heard or read his comments?

To help you out, I'll direct you towards race pace in Australia, Malaysia and Bahrain, and quali in Australia and Malaysia.


Did I ever once say that Schumacher was complaining about his results being due to tyre issues? Nope.....
Did I ever say that he was struggling with the tyres? Nope.....
Did I ever insinuate that his being 33 points down was due to the Pirellis? Nope.......
Have I repeatedly said that he's having a run of bad luck? Yep.......

By wondering out loud if the discussion would have been as heated had the roles been reversed and it was Nico complaining ( no, excuse me, voicing his opinion) I've been accused of saying that Schumacher is blaming the tyres for his current woes. Never, have I said that.

#19072 jj2728

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Posted 04 May 2012 - 21:42

I do not follow any of those.


Once again, why am I not surprised?

#19073 Sakae

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Posted 04 May 2012 - 22:39

Once again, why am I not surprised?

Would you be also surprised if I tell you there are similar publications written in other languages that I prefer to read over those you praise so much?

#19074 jj2728

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Posted 04 May 2012 - 23:11

Would you be also surprised if I tell you there are similar publications written in other languages that I prefer to read over those you praise so much?


I'm not praising any of these publications, no I am not surprised as I know for fact that there are many other reputable publications worldwide in different languages as I read them myself (believe it or not), but to denigrate Paul Fearnely wthout actually knowing how he has been involved with motorsport is IMHO a bit naive.

#19075 Sakae

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Posted 05 May 2012 - 01:05

I'm not praising any of these publications, no I am not surprised as I know for fact that there are many other reputable publications worldwide in different languages as I read them myself (believe it or not), but to denigrate Paul Fearnely wthout actually knowing how he has been involved with motorsport is IMHO a bit naive.

What are you up to? First of all, if you want to claim that British sources are the best or only to read, than I have no civil response to it. All what I have said was that I do not know Fearnely (or anything about him), and you take off into orbit. I do not read publications you named, or any other British publications on regular basis for that matter, if it is OK with you. Atlas (now Autosport) F1 front page which has some British origins is the last and only source that is left. Allright? Finish TS (in English) as a reliable F1-source is totally fine, supplemented with German pages are good enough for me, and all what I actually need.

#19076 jj2728

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Posted 05 May 2012 - 01:23

What are you up to? First of all, if you want to claim that British sources are the best or only to read


Slow down there chief. Where have I ever said that the British sources are the best out there? You are making assumptions based on nothing.

Edited by jj2728, 05 May 2012 - 17:13.


#19077 SeanValen

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Posted 05 May 2012 - 03:55

The Williams faster??? I thought Schumi drove a supremely dominant car to his championships in the 2000's. :)

I enjoyed that lap. Brings back memories. :)



I think Schumacher made his championships look really efficient because he didn't just win the races where the ferrari had a advantage, he also won races or points where there was a real challenge for the gp win, maybe not the title always, but certain gps williams, renault or mclarens got in on the action, it's very easy to sumerise his seasons, but there's alot of great driving which maximised some races where he could of lost and no one would of thought much of it, except because it's Schumacher, his standards meant we expected him to never have a off weekend.


Ferrari had a overall good car performance to reliability over the season in 2001, but Mclaren were stronger in some of the races then they got credit for-remember David Couthard somehow challenging Schumacher pacewise and getting pole at Monaco, Hakkinen lost Spain near the end with engine, but the car was faster then in qualifying While Schumacher overall won the season earlier, by finishing on the podium alot, there were some very challenging races for him. At Canada 2001, clearly Ralf and Williams was the faster package and again at Imola-where MS's rims had broklen-the wheels and the williams ran Schumacher very close at nurburgring. You may want to watch those races again sometime.

The Ferrari f-2001 was something Michael was able to push really hard in qualifying, but in the race it's advantage was less, if you remember Brazil 2001, another race where Williams this time with Montoya had the measure of the ferrari, David Couthard went on to win the race, it was a odd race for Schuey because he had trouble with handeling the ferrarin in the race-he set up the car differently for the race, not expecting rain, but with rain, it became even more difficult, he wasn't happy with that race. The f-2001 was awesome in qualifying with Schumacher driving it, bu t the car had a smaller fuel tank, so strategy wise, we saw Williams and Mclarens at times staying out longer because their fuel tank was bigger, so Schumacher had to run his race faster as he had less laps of fuel to get the pitstop breakthrough in some races, I think it's easy to take that for granted, but Nurburgring 2001 probabley one of Schumacher's best races in 2001 and his career for weekend performance, and I remember ferrari president Luca Demontezemlo especially praising Schumacher for his performance that race.



#19078 chrisaix

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Posted 05 May 2012 - 04:26

I think Schumacher made his championships look really efficient because he didn't just win the races where the ferrari had a advantage, he also won races or points where there was a real challenge for the gp win, maybe not the title always, but certain gps williams, renault or mclarens got in on the action, it's very easy to sumerise his seasons, but there's alot of great driving which maximised some races where he could of lost and no one would of thought much of it, except because it's Schumacher, his standards meant we expected him to never have a off weekend.


Ferrari had a overall good car performance to reliability over the season in 2001, but Mclaren were stronger in some of the races then they got credit for-remember David Couthard somehow challenging Schumacher pacewise and getting pole at Monaco, Hakkinen lost Spain near the end with engine, but the car was faster then in qualifying While Schumacher overall won the season earlier, by finishing on the podium alot, there were some very challenging races for him. At Canada 2001, clearly Ralf and Williams was the faster package and again at Imola-where MS's rims had broklen-the wheels and the williams ran Schumacher very close at nurburgring. You may want to watch those races again sometime.

The Ferrari f-2001 was something Michael was able to push really hard in qualifying, but in the race it's advantage was less, if you remember Brazil 2001, another race where Williams this time with Montoya had the measure of the ferrari, David Couthard went on to win the race, it was a odd race for Schuey because he had trouble with handeling the ferrarin in the race-he set up the car differently for the race, not expecting rain, but with rain, it became even more difficult, he wasn't happy with that race. The f-2001 was awesome in qualifying with Schumacher driving it, bu t the car had a smaller fuel tank, so strategy wise, we saw Williams and Mclarens at times staying out longer because their fuel tank was bigger, so Schumacher had to run his race faster as he had less laps of fuel to get the pitstop breakthrough in some races, I think it's easy to take that for granted, but Nurburgring 2001 probabley one of Schumacher's best races in 2001 and his career for weekend performance, and I remember ferrari president Luca Demontezemlo especially praising Schumacher for his performance that race.


+1 :up: sean
And just like you said because its schumacher everyone was expecting the best from him every practice, every qualifying and every race.

Edited by chrisaix, 05 May 2012 - 04:27.


#19079 Konsta

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Posted 05 May 2012 - 10:59

MS is prolly under a magnifying lense because he is the most successful and the most experienced driver on the grid. It is just amusing when in the eyes of HC Schumi fans there is only black and white - it seems that he is above critizism altogether. I admire MS for what he has achieved but somewhat dislike him for being ruthless to the extreme. Where others might not have rammed their competition in "red mist" or park their cars mid-corner, MS was easily able to do so. Winor try winning at ALL costs, no matter what. Those "old sins" will never fade away although they should not be used against him in races to come.

This season he´s had rotten luck - I´m not sure if he´d be above his teammate in the stangings but close.

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#19080 ivand911

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Posted 05 May 2012 - 11:45

Schumacher not expecting too much in Spain
http://www.gpupdate....much-in-spain/t

I am looking forward to Canada then , until MS didn't say the ^ same. From me it is bye, bye P4 in WCC.

Edited by ivand911, 05 May 2012 - 11:59.


#19081 ali_M

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Posted 05 May 2012 - 13:03

MS is prolly under a magnifying lense because he is the most successful and the most experienced driver on the grid. It is just amusing when in the eyes of HC Schumi fans there is only black and white - it seems that he is above critizism altogether. I admire MS for what he has achieved but somewhat dislike him for being ruthless to the extreme. Where others might not have rammed their competition in "red mist" or park their cars mid-corner, MS was easily able to do so. Winor try winning at ALL costs, no matter what. Those "old sins" will never fade away although they should not be used against him in races to come.

This season he´s had rotten luck - I´m not sure if he´d be above his teammate in the stangings but close.


I certainly respect your opinion here. Very well put.

I was very disappointed in Michael at Monaco 2006. It took me a while to forgive him since I couldn't understand why he felt inclined to do such a thing at that stage of his career. But then, it's the whole package, isn't it? We, as Schumi, are all human. If he's truly great in one way, the flaws will show up in other ways. I'm very aware of his ruthlessness, but the ones who hold this above all else about him are the ones who were embarrassed by his superiority when they were his teammates and understandably vexed by the teams preferential treatment of Michael; those veteran drivers with their greatness threatened by the looming shadow of Michael's achievements (they'll always point out Michael's flaws and amusedly so); and all the fans of those same drivers and veterans. :p

It's Michael's abilities that made the cars that he drove seem as dominant as they were during his years at Benetton and Ferrari. No one is denying that he didn't need competitive machinery to achieve what he did, but the commanding way that he did it is a totally different matter and put way too much down to dominant machinery.

The McLaren's were very dominant in 1998 and yet, Michael gave them a serious run for the championship that year. Pretty much as Alonso/Ferrari did with RBR in 2010. Alonso deserves a LOT of credit for his efforts with that Ferrari in 2010. I don't think the Ferrari was supremely dominant in 2000 and this is why that year was so fantastic for all to watch really. 2001.... not dominant. In 2002, the Ferrari was dominant and it was utter domination there. Same for 2004, but not for 2003 or 2006. Again, 1995 was not a championship won in dominant machinery.

In 1997, Michael felt the same as Prost did with Senna in 1989 at Suzuka. :lol:

After such an illustrious career and being back for an encore, he makes a comment about the tyres. It's bound to provoke the chatter that now prevails.

#19082 Sakae

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Posted 06 May 2012 - 00:20

I certainly respect your opinion here. Very well put.

I was very disappointed in Michael at Monaco 2006...

Other than repeating initial opinion purported by media, do you have actually any admision from the team that his act was deliberate? I am not interested in statements like "everyone can see it", because I certainly do not. In fact, I know close to nothing what happened to his car, what he could or could not do, and how he managed to develop a such devilish scheme in nanoseconds without having comprehensive situational overview who is where on the track, and what's needed to neutralise opposition. Just the facts would be very nice change. I am not leaning one way or another, but I wait what he will say, when time is ripe.


_____________

Michael is last of newcomers who entered racing end of era when greats such as Prost, and Senna were active. It were different times, and hard knock racing commonplace then, is called a murder (denotes hard to take) today by younger generation. I do not expect everyone to understand, but being an ancient myself, I know enough to recognize that he is actually a gentle guy, and one of the toughest as they ever were born. Not enough reasons however to be dispappointed over him.

Edited by Sakae, 06 May 2012 - 00:21.


#19083 ali_M

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Posted 06 May 2012 - 03:38

Other than repeating initial opinion purported by media, do you have actually any admision from the team that his act was deliberate? I am not interested in statements like "everyone can see it", because I certainly do not. In fact, I know close to nothing what happened to his car, what he could or could not do, and how he managed to develop a such devilish scheme in nanoseconds without having comprehensive situational overview who is where on the track, and what's needed to neutralise opposition. Just the facts would be very nice change. I am not leaning one way or another, but I wait what he will say, when time is ripe.
_____________

Michael is last of newcomers who entered racing end of era when greats such as Prost, and Senna were active. It were different times, and hard knock racing commonplace then, is called a murder (denotes hard to take) today by younger generation. I do not expect everyone to understand, but being an ancient myself, I know enough to recognize that he is actually a gentle guy, and one of the toughest as they ever were born. Not enough reasons however to be dispappointed over him.


I have no proof about Monaco 2006. I made up my mind after watching the post-race interview and seeing Schumi's behaviour.

Additionally, I'm currently not at all disappointed in him but disappointed with what I think he did in Monaco 2006. We all make mistakes and our heads take us at times, especially in tough situations and when a supremely competitive individual is involved.

Edited by ali_M, 06 May 2012 - 03:42.


#19084 LiJu914

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Posted 06 May 2012 - 09:41

Other than repeating initial opinion purported by media, do you have actually any admision from the team that his act was deliberate? I am not interested in statements like "everyone can see it", because I certainly do not.


Don´t ask me where and when he said it..but even Ross Brawn admitted that MSC did it deliberately (even though in the heat of the moment).

Imho it was his biggest misstep besides Jerez 97 - although some comments were hypocritical and showed extreme bias - e.g. Keke Rosbergs. That guy deliberately blocked Senna in Brands Hatch when he should have been lapped, so that Mansell went through first - and i didn´t hear much from him in Hungary 2007 for example.
Ok Briatore "had to" complain as the Renault - team principal. But i think i don´t have talk to much about his race ethics...

Edited by LiJu914, 06 May 2012 - 09:43.


#19085 Sakae

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Posted 06 May 2012 - 11:18

Don´t ask me where and when he said it..but even Ross Brawn admitted that MSC did it deliberately (even though in the heat of the moment).

Did you hear Ross directly or someone was quoting him? I am not questioning your honesty, but generally since it's not advisable to relay on hearsay evidence, it would be better to have direct quote and context in which Ross was speaking.


_________________

I am probably pain in wrong place, but over the years I heard tons of statements what Schumacher allegedly said, yet comparison between his direct quote and translation usually left me gasping for air, which is why I am very careful about this subject. Michael's command of English language wasn't initially very good; today it is much better, but to avoid new problems, today he also says very little, and for good reasons. His recent comment about tires is a good example what can happen to anything what he will say. I wonder if he ever will write memoirs, but as much I would like to hear from him directly, I also doubt he will do it, since again, regardless what he will put in, it will be a new subject of controversy, and for that reason he might remain a deeply private person that he is.



#19086 ali_M

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Posted 06 May 2012 - 12:42

I am probably pain in wrong place, but over the years I heard tons of statements what Schumacher allegedly said, yet comparison between his direct quote and translation usually left me gasping for air, which is why I am very careful about this subject. Michael's command of English language wasn't initially very good; today it is much better, but to avoid new problems, today he also says very little, and for good reasons. His recent comment about tires is a good example what can happen to anything what he will say. I wonder if he ever will write memoirs, but as much I would like to hear from him directly, I also doubt he will do it, since again, regardless what he will put in, it will be a new subject of controversy, and for that reason he might remain a deeply private person that he is.


I'm a huge fan of his, warts and all. I've now come to accept that he really couldn't have been the way his is in some ways without being how he is in other ways. We just know about his messups and since he's been so successful, many will be HIGHLY critical of him. There is so much hypocrisy in the paddock among many who criticize Michael's behaviour and his wayward moments are conveniently blown way too much out of proportion as if he isn't as human as those very blokes who are so critical. Moss and Stewart both have ego's the size of Britain. Schumi threatens their greatness since such a measure of greatness has to be based on comparison. They will always be the first to protect their era and fellow drivers by reminding us of Schumacher's on-track skirmishes.

They fail to rightfully admit that these are very different times and that their era was socialized very differently and far more dangerous. One cannot compare the ethic and race conditions/opportunities. If the drivers are socialized differently, they'll behave differently on track and off-track. Senna was not a Clark on or off the track. However, they were both VERY strong characters in their own ways.

Michael is of tremendous character and no one can take that away from him.

#19087 sharo

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Posted 06 May 2012 - 13:40

Other than repeating initial opinion purported by media, do you have actually any admission from the team that his act was deliberate?

^This.
Michael simply locked his mouth and rightly so. Seeing now what hysterics burst out of a simple tyre comment the magnitude of the desire to tar him was incomparable at the time.
It was MS vs Alonso for the WDC and the presence of a Spaniard among the stewards was very indicative while Alonso threatened to lie in front of the cars at the start if MS was not punished.


#19088 jj2728

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Posted 06 May 2012 - 13:51

I'm a huge fan of his, warts and all. I've now come to accept that he really couldn't have been the way his is in some ways without being how he is in other ways. We just know about his messups and since he's been so successful, many will be HIGHLY critical of him. There is so much hypocrisy in the paddock among many who criticize Michael's behaviour and his wayward moments are conveniently blown way too much out of proportion as if he isn't as human as those very blokes who are so critical. Moss and Stewart both have ego's the size of Britain. Schumi threatens their greatness since such a measure of greatness has to be based on comparison. They will always be the first to protect their era and fellow drivers by reminding us of Schumacher's on-track skirmishes.

They fail to rightfully admit that these are very different times and that their era was socialized very differently and far more dangerous. One cannot compare the ethic and race conditions/opportunities. If the drivers are socialized differently, they'll behave differently on track and off-track. Senna was not a Clark on or off the track. However, they were both VERY strong characters in their own ways.

Michael is of tremendous character and no one can take that away from him.


But, and this is MHO, the flaw in your arguement is that it wasn't necessary for Schumacher to use the tactics that he did. And that is always going to be the crux of the critiscm against him. By doing so, he opened himself up to those who were/are critical of his actions. To say that SSM and SJS have the egos the size of Britain has nothing to do with the argument against him. That is nothing more than a convenient lashing out at 2 highly regarded (well, maybe not around these parts) drivers. Bullyboy tactics need not be tolerated regardless of the era, saying that the times are different lends no justification to said tactics. And I Highly doubt that either SSM or SJS feel threatend by Schumacher's "greatness", why should they?

#19089 exmayol

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Posted 06 May 2012 - 16:43

And I Highly doubt that either SSM or SJS feel threatend by Schumacher's "greatness", why should they?


50% of the time I hear about SSM / SJS it is some sort of MS bashing. To me that clearly relates to his greatness. Sure journos contribute to this and provide some quotes out of context making it sound harsher than necessary. While I certainly have a lot of respect for their racing legacy these days they are just trying to stay involved and sell their biased opinion to anyone listening. I bet not many fans take them seriously anymore, I for one do not.

#19090 jj2728

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Posted 06 May 2012 - 18:01

these days they are just trying to stay involved and sell their biased opinion to anyone listening. I bet not many fans take them seriously anymore, I for one do not.


They are doing nothing more than voicing their opinions when asked, they don't gad about to all and sundry "Schumacher this and Schumacher that" and they certainly are not trying to stay involved by selling 'biased' opinions. You don't have to agree with them, but if it is solely their remarks about Schumacher that cause you not to take them seriously then I'd have to say that your'e wrong in your assesment, but that's MHO.

#19091 ali_M

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Posted 06 May 2012 - 18:19

But, and this is MHO, the flaw in your arguement is that it wasn't necessary for Schumacher to use the tactics that he did. And that is always going to be the crux of the critiscm against him. By doing so, he opened himself up to those who were/are critical of his actions. To say that SSM and SJS have the egos the size of Britain has nothing to do with the argument against him. That is nothing more than a convenient lashing out at 2 highly regarded (well, maybe not around these parts) drivers. Bullyboy tactics need not be tolerated regardless of the era, saying that the times are different lends no justification to said tactics. And I Highly doubt that either SSM or SJS feel threatend by Schumacher's "greatness", why should they?


It would appear from what you write here that you don't understand me. I'm not justifying any of the shady stuff Schumacher did. I simply understand them and I understand him as a person. His huge success as well as his failures go together to make him the complete individual that he is. No one is above reproach and no one should be held to an unrealistic standard and judged based on such a standard. As to the era difference, the current racing era is a lot safer and this allows for a different type of racing. We see this among many of the drivers. Michael isn't at all alone in this respect and it's grossly unfair to single him out. This is all that I'm saying. Back in the day of Stewart and Moss, bullboy tactics were often rewarded by death or serious injury. So as someone from that era, don't come now and get all sanctimonious about such behaviour not existing back then because of inherent gentlemanly conduct on the part of saintly drivers. You never really understand until you see this sort of thing in action. As someone living in a developing nation where corrupt behaviour has the opportunity to go unchecked from top to bottom, it's always amusing to see someone from a developed nation arrive to live here for a while. There's the usual self-righteous commentary but before you know it, we have to be telling this very same person to be careful. It's amazing what an atmosphere of accountability does to people and before you know it, their egos twist it into personal virtue rather than towing the line to save one's skin.

As to lashing out, I respect them a lot. I even read Stewart's autobiography and enjoyed it a lot. However, I smiled at the ego that oozed from his prose, knowing full well that it's that same ego that got him the success he now enjoys and a reputation that he will make all sorts of negative commentary to uphold. Not to mention Moss. He's full of ego as well and has a greatness that's even more delicate because of lack of results (all things relative of course). Though his supporters are secure in their image of him, he apparently isn't from his perspective, or else he'd not make some of the comments that he makes. He really doesn't need to. Again, much respect to him and his achievements. My point is that they're all human and choose where to be bullies or crafty, whether on or off the track.

Take Alonso, another fierce competitor like Michael. His resume isn't clean either. Love the dude for his huge heart and motivation. Go Alonso and don't let the sanctimonious chatter get you down too much.

Vettel is the next in line under the microscope (incidents with Webber and Karthikeyan) and poor Hamilton.... does he get a beating from the sanctimonious crowd who support other drivers/teams!! I'm not at all saying that Vettel and Hamilton aren't above criticism. I'm saying who the hell isn't??? Especially when we're referring to fierce competitors, determined to win and who are almost boys for that matter.

Michael is grown up now... very different from 1991, but I'm sure still a fierce competitor and still with flaws. However, his legacy continues. Go Michael and ignore the blabbering in your wake. Make us even prouder! :)

Edited by ali_M, 06 May 2012 - 18:26.
Edited as part of it wasn't relevant.


#19092 ali_M

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Posted 06 May 2012 - 18:21

They are doing nothing more than voicing their opinions when asked, they don't gad about to all and sundry "Schumacher this and Schumacher that" and they certainly are not trying to stay involved by selling 'biased' opinions. You don't have to agree with them, but if it is solely their remarks about Schumacher that cause you not to take them seriously then I'd have to say that your'e wrong in your assesment, but that's MHO.


There's a difference between not taking a whole person seriously as opposed to not taking a person's opinion about something seriously. I doubt exmayol doesn't take their achievements seriously. I think he doesn't take their excessively negative speak about Schumacher seriously.

Edited by ali_M, 06 May 2012 - 18:22.


#19093 jj2728

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Posted 06 May 2012 - 19:46

So as someone from that era, don't come now and get all sanctimonious about such behaviour not existing back then because of inherent gentlemanly conduct on the part of saintly drivers. You never really understand until you see this sort of thing in action.


I never said that such behavior didn't exist back then. Of course it did. There were more than a few drivers who took things to the 'edge' and back and there always have been ever since the dawn of the sport and in all forms of motor racing.

#19094 fieraku

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Posted 06 May 2012 - 19:47

It is fairly obvious to me that Schumacher is embarrassed at his standing right now


Don't worry mate,he has the '7 Titles' which can lend him a shoulder he can lean on.The same amount as the whole grid combined ;)

#19095 halifaxf1fan

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Posted 06 May 2012 - 20:12

Don't worry mate,he has the '7 Titles' which can lend him a shoulder he can lean on.The same amount as the whole grid combined ;)


Yes he has a wonderful record from his glory days. I would bet though that he would gladly give up those titles to win this season. The past doesn't mean much if you can't keep up to the current drivers on race day.

#19096 jj2728

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Posted 06 May 2012 - 20:17

Yes he has a wonderful record from his glory days. I would bet though that he would gladly give up those titles to win this season. The past doesn't mean much if you can't keep up to the current drivers on race day.


But the issue is that he can keep up with the current drivers, the run of bad luck he's had this year has prevented him from getting at least a podium finish.

#19097 fieraku

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Posted 06 May 2012 - 20:36

Yes he has a wonderful record from his glory days. I would bet though that he would gladly give up those titles to win this season. The past doesn't mean much if you can't keep up to the current drivers on race day.


I bet he does NOT!And history is written from the 'past',which means Schu's book will be twice as thick and heavy when all is said&done.

Also think about it.How many 43 year old guys do you know who drive F1 cars for a living? Most men in that stage of midlife (crisis) are leaving their wives for younger models and wasting their 401K on a $300,000 Mercedes,MSC is getting paid millions to drive a $20,000,000 one. So again I don't think he has anything to be embarrassed about.

Call it a retirement adventure.Personally I'm just satisfied with just his presence on the grid so any success is cherry on top.FFS the man could father half the grid,give him a break.

#19098 MikeTekRacing

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Posted 06 May 2012 - 21:14

Yes he has a wonderful record from his glory days. I would bet though that he would gladly give up those titles to win this season. The past doesn't mean much if you can't keep up to the current drivers on race day.

did you actually watch any of the races this year?

#19099 Ferrari_F1_fan_2001

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Posted 06 May 2012 - 21:33

Nothing wrong with Schumacher's driving this year at all.

Just terrible luck.

4/4 races with problems. Must be a gutting feeling.

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#19100 jj2728

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Posted 06 May 2012 - 21:43

4/4 races with problems. Must be a gutting feeling.


Frustrating yes, gutting? I doubt it.