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#19101 Sakae

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Posted 06 May 2012 - 00:20

I certainly respect your opinion here. Very well put.

I was very disappointed in Michael at Monaco 2006...

Other than repeating initial opinion purported by media, do you have actually any admision from the team that his act was deliberate? I am not interested in statements like "everyone can see it", because I certainly do not. In fact, I know close to nothing what happened to his car, what he could or could not do, and how he managed to develop a such devilish scheme in nanoseconds without having comprehensive situational overview who is where on the track, and what's needed to neutralise opposition. Just the facts would be very nice change. I am not leaning one way or another, but I wait what he will say, when time is ripe.


_____________

Michael is last of newcomers who entered racing end of era when greats such as Prost, and Senna were active. It were different times, and hard knock racing commonplace then, is called a murder (denotes hard to take) today by younger generation. I do not expect everyone to understand, but being an ancient myself, I know enough to recognize that he is actually a gentle guy, and one of the toughest as they ever were born. Not enough reasons however to be dispappointed over him.

Edited by Sakae, 06 May 2012 - 00:21.


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#19102 ali_M

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Posted 06 May 2012 - 03:38

Other than repeating initial opinion purported by media, do you have actually any admision from the team that his act was deliberate? I am not interested in statements like "everyone can see it", because I certainly do not. In fact, I know close to nothing what happened to his car, what he could or could not do, and how he managed to develop a such devilish scheme in nanoseconds without having comprehensive situational overview who is where on the track, and what's needed to neutralise opposition. Just the facts would be very nice change. I am not leaning one way or another, but I wait what he will say, when time is ripe.
_____________

Michael is last of newcomers who entered racing end of era when greats such as Prost, and Senna were active. It were different times, and hard knock racing commonplace then, is called a murder (denotes hard to take) today by younger generation. I do not expect everyone to understand, but being an ancient myself, I know enough to recognize that he is actually a gentle guy, and one of the toughest as they ever were born. Not enough reasons however to be dispappointed over him.


I have no proof about Monaco 2006. I made up my mind after watching the post-race interview and seeing Schumi's behaviour.

Additionally, I'm currently not at all disappointed in him but disappointed with what I think he did in Monaco 2006. We all make mistakes and our heads take us at times, especially in tough situations and when a supremely competitive individual is involved.

Edited by ali_M, 06 May 2012 - 03:42.


#19103 LiJu914

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Posted 06 May 2012 - 09:41

Other than repeating initial opinion purported by media, do you have actually any admision from the team that his act was deliberate? I am not interested in statements like "everyone can see it", because I certainly do not.


Don´t ask me where and when he said it..but even Ross Brawn admitted that MSC did it deliberately (even though in the heat of the moment).

Imho it was his biggest misstep besides Jerez 97 - although some comments were hypocritical and showed extreme bias - e.g. Keke Rosbergs. That guy deliberately blocked Senna in Brands Hatch when he should have been lapped, so that Mansell went through first - and i didn´t hear much from him in Hungary 2007 for example.
Ok Briatore "had to" complain as the Renault - team principal. But i think i don´t have talk to much about his race ethics...

Edited by LiJu914, 06 May 2012 - 09:43.


#19104 Sakae

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Posted 06 May 2012 - 11:18

Don´t ask me where and when he said it..but even Ross Brawn admitted that MSC did it deliberately (even though in the heat of the moment).

Did you hear Ross directly or someone was quoting him? I am not questioning your honesty, but generally since it's not advisable to relay on hearsay evidence, it would be better to have direct quote and context in which Ross was speaking.


_________________

I am probably pain in wrong place, but over the years I heard tons of statements what Schumacher allegedly said, yet comparison between his direct quote and translation usually left me gasping for air, which is why I am very careful about this subject. Michael's command of English language wasn't initially very good; today it is much better, but to avoid new problems, today he also says very little, and for good reasons. His recent comment about tires is a good example what can happen to anything what he will say. I wonder if he ever will write memoirs, but as much I would like to hear from him directly, I also doubt he will do it, since again, regardless what he will put in, it will be a new subject of controversy, and for that reason he might remain a deeply private person that he is.



#19105 ali_M

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Posted 06 May 2012 - 12:42

I am probably pain in wrong place, but over the years I heard tons of statements what Schumacher allegedly said, yet comparison between his direct quote and translation usually left me gasping for air, which is why I am very careful about this subject. Michael's command of English language wasn't initially very good; today it is much better, but to avoid new problems, today he also says very little, and for good reasons. His recent comment about tires is a good example what can happen to anything what he will say. I wonder if he ever will write memoirs, but as much I would like to hear from him directly, I also doubt he will do it, since again, regardless what he will put in, it will be a new subject of controversy, and for that reason he might remain a deeply private person that he is.


I'm a huge fan of his, warts and all. I've now come to accept that he really couldn't have been the way his is in some ways without being how he is in other ways. We just know about his messups and since he's been so successful, many will be HIGHLY critical of him. There is so much hypocrisy in the paddock among many who criticize Michael's behaviour and his wayward moments are conveniently blown way too much out of proportion as if he isn't as human as those very blokes who are so critical. Moss and Stewart both have ego's the size of Britain. Schumi threatens their greatness since such a measure of greatness has to be based on comparison. They will always be the first to protect their era and fellow drivers by reminding us of Schumacher's on-track skirmishes.

They fail to rightfully admit that these are very different times and that their era was socialized very differently and far more dangerous. One cannot compare the ethic and race conditions/opportunities. If the drivers are socialized differently, they'll behave differently on track and off-track. Senna was not a Clark on or off the track. However, they were both VERY strong characters in their own ways.

Michael is of tremendous character and no one can take that away from him.

#19106 sharo

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Posted 06 May 2012 - 13:40

Other than repeating initial opinion purported by media, do you have actually any admission from the team that his act was deliberate?

^This.
Michael simply locked his mouth and rightly so. Seeing now what hysterics burst out of a simple tyre comment the magnitude of the desire to tar him was incomparable at the time.
It was MS vs Alonso for the WDC and the presence of a Spaniard among the stewards was very indicative while Alonso threatened to lie in front of the cars at the start if MS was not punished.


#19107 jj2728

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Posted 06 May 2012 - 13:51

I'm a huge fan of his, warts and all. I've now come to accept that he really couldn't have been the way his is in some ways without being how he is in other ways. We just know about his messups and since he's been so successful, many will be HIGHLY critical of him. There is so much hypocrisy in the paddock among many who criticize Michael's behaviour and his wayward moments are conveniently blown way too much out of proportion as if he isn't as human as those very blokes who are so critical. Moss and Stewart both have ego's the size of Britain. Schumi threatens their greatness since such a measure of greatness has to be based on comparison. They will always be the first to protect their era and fellow drivers by reminding us of Schumacher's on-track skirmishes.

They fail to rightfully admit that these are very different times and that their era was socialized very differently and far more dangerous. One cannot compare the ethic and race conditions/opportunities. If the drivers are socialized differently, they'll behave differently on track and off-track. Senna was not a Clark on or off the track. However, they were both VERY strong characters in their own ways.

Michael is of tremendous character and no one can take that away from him.


But, and this is MHO, the flaw in your arguement is that it wasn't necessary for Schumacher to use the tactics that he did. And that is always going to be the crux of the critiscm against him. By doing so, he opened himself up to those who were/are critical of his actions. To say that SSM and SJS have the egos the size of Britain has nothing to do with the argument against him. That is nothing more than a convenient lashing out at 2 highly regarded (well, maybe not around these parts) drivers. Bullyboy tactics need not be tolerated regardless of the era, saying that the times are different lends no justification to said tactics. And I Highly doubt that either SSM or SJS feel threatend by Schumacher's "greatness", why should they?

#19108 exmayol

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Posted 06 May 2012 - 16:43

And I Highly doubt that either SSM or SJS feel threatend by Schumacher's "greatness", why should they?


50% of the time I hear about SSM / SJS it is some sort of MS bashing. To me that clearly relates to his greatness. Sure journos contribute to this and provide some quotes out of context making it sound harsher than necessary. While I certainly have a lot of respect for their racing legacy these days they are just trying to stay involved and sell their biased opinion to anyone listening. I bet not many fans take them seriously anymore, I for one do not.

#19109 jj2728

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Posted 06 May 2012 - 18:01

these days they are just trying to stay involved and sell their biased opinion to anyone listening. I bet not many fans take them seriously anymore, I for one do not.


They are doing nothing more than voicing their opinions when asked, they don't gad about to all and sundry "Schumacher this and Schumacher that" and they certainly are not trying to stay involved by selling 'biased' opinions. You don't have to agree with them, but if it is solely their remarks about Schumacher that cause you not to take them seriously then I'd have to say that your'e wrong in your assesment, but that's MHO.

#19110 ali_M

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Posted 06 May 2012 - 18:19

But, and this is MHO, the flaw in your arguement is that it wasn't necessary for Schumacher to use the tactics that he did. And that is always going to be the crux of the critiscm against him. By doing so, he opened himself up to those who were/are critical of his actions. To say that SSM and SJS have the egos the size of Britain has nothing to do with the argument against him. That is nothing more than a convenient lashing out at 2 highly regarded (well, maybe not around these parts) drivers. Bullyboy tactics need not be tolerated regardless of the era, saying that the times are different lends no justification to said tactics. And I Highly doubt that either SSM or SJS feel threatend by Schumacher's "greatness", why should they?


It would appear from what you write here that you don't understand me. I'm not justifying any of the shady stuff Schumacher did. I simply understand them and I understand him as a person. His huge success as well as his failures go together to make him the complete individual that he is. No one is above reproach and no one should be held to an unrealistic standard and judged based on such a standard. As to the era difference, the current racing era is a lot safer and this allows for a different type of racing. We see this among many of the drivers. Michael isn't at all alone in this respect and it's grossly unfair to single him out. This is all that I'm saying. Back in the day of Stewart and Moss, bullboy tactics were often rewarded by death or serious injury. So as someone from that era, don't come now and get all sanctimonious about such behaviour not existing back then because of inherent gentlemanly conduct on the part of saintly drivers. You never really understand until you see this sort of thing in action. As someone living in a developing nation where corrupt behaviour has the opportunity to go unchecked from top to bottom, it's always amusing to see someone from a developed nation arrive to live here for a while. There's the usual self-righteous commentary but before you know it, we have to be telling this very same person to be careful. It's amazing what an atmosphere of accountability does to people and before you know it, their egos twist it into personal virtue rather than towing the line to save one's skin.

As to lashing out, I respect them a lot. I even read Stewart's autobiography and enjoyed it a lot. However, I smiled at the ego that oozed from his prose, knowing full well that it's that same ego that got him the success he now enjoys and a reputation that he will make all sorts of negative commentary to uphold. Not to mention Moss. He's full of ego as well and has a greatness that's even more delicate because of lack of results (all things relative of course). Though his supporters are secure in their image of him, he apparently isn't from his perspective, or else he'd not make some of the comments that he makes. He really doesn't need to. Again, much respect to him and his achievements. My point is that they're all human and choose where to be bullies or crafty, whether on or off the track.

Take Alonso, another fierce competitor like Michael. His resume isn't clean either. Love the dude for his huge heart and motivation. Go Alonso and don't let the sanctimonious chatter get you down too much.

Vettel is the next in line under the microscope (incidents with Webber and Karthikeyan) and poor Hamilton.... does he get a beating from the sanctimonious crowd who support other drivers/teams!! I'm not at all saying that Vettel and Hamilton aren't above criticism. I'm saying who the hell isn't??? Especially when we're referring to fierce competitors, determined to win and who are almost boys for that matter.

Michael is grown up now... very different from 1991, but I'm sure still a fierce competitor and still with flaws. However, his legacy continues. Go Michael and ignore the blabbering in your wake. Make us even prouder! :)

Edited by ali_M, 06 May 2012 - 18:26.
Edited as part of it wasn't relevant.


#19111 ali_M

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Posted 06 May 2012 - 18:21

They are doing nothing more than voicing their opinions when asked, they don't gad about to all and sundry "Schumacher this and Schumacher that" and they certainly are not trying to stay involved by selling 'biased' opinions. You don't have to agree with them, but if it is solely their remarks about Schumacher that cause you not to take them seriously then I'd have to say that your'e wrong in your assesment, but that's MHO.


There's a difference between not taking a whole person seriously as opposed to not taking a person's opinion about something seriously. I doubt exmayol doesn't take their achievements seriously. I think he doesn't take their excessively negative speak about Schumacher seriously.

Edited by ali_M, 06 May 2012 - 18:22.


#19112 jj2728

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Posted 06 May 2012 - 19:46

So as someone from that era, don't come now and get all sanctimonious about such behaviour not existing back then because of inherent gentlemanly conduct on the part of saintly drivers. You never really understand until you see this sort of thing in action.


I never said that such behavior didn't exist back then. Of course it did. There were more than a few drivers who took things to the 'edge' and back and there always have been ever since the dawn of the sport and in all forms of motor racing.

#19113 fieraku

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Posted 06 May 2012 - 19:47

It is fairly obvious to me that Schumacher is embarrassed at his standing right now


Don't worry mate,he has the '7 Titles' which can lend him a shoulder he can lean on.The same amount as the whole grid combined ;)

#19114 halifaxf1fan

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Posted 06 May 2012 - 20:12

Don't worry mate,he has the '7 Titles' which can lend him a shoulder he can lean on.The same amount as the whole grid combined ;)


Yes he has a wonderful record from his glory days. I would bet though that he would gladly give up those titles to win this season. The past doesn't mean much if you can't keep up to the current drivers on race day.

#19115 jj2728

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Posted 06 May 2012 - 20:17

Yes he has a wonderful record from his glory days. I would bet though that he would gladly give up those titles to win this season. The past doesn't mean much if you can't keep up to the current drivers on race day.


But the issue is that he can keep up with the current drivers, the run of bad luck he's had this year has prevented him from getting at least a podium finish.

#19116 fieraku

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Posted 06 May 2012 - 20:36

Yes he has a wonderful record from his glory days. I would bet though that he would gladly give up those titles to win this season. The past doesn't mean much if you can't keep up to the current drivers on race day.


I bet he does NOT!And history is written from the 'past',which means Schu's book will be twice as thick and heavy when all is said&done.

Also think about it.How many 43 year old guys do you know who drive F1 cars for a living? Most men in that stage of midlife (crisis) are leaving their wives for younger models and wasting their 401K on a $300,000 Mercedes,MSC is getting paid millions to drive a $20,000,000 one. So again I don't think he has anything to be embarrassed about.

Call it a retirement adventure.Personally I'm just satisfied with just his presence on the grid so any success is cherry on top.FFS the man could father half the grid,give him a break.

#19117 MikeTekRacing

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Posted 06 May 2012 - 21:14

Yes he has a wonderful record from his glory days. I would bet though that he would gladly give up those titles to win this season. The past doesn't mean much if you can't keep up to the current drivers on race day.

did you actually watch any of the races this year?

#19118 Ferrari_F1_fan_2001

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Posted 06 May 2012 - 21:33

Nothing wrong with Schumacher's driving this year at all.

Just terrible luck.

4/4 races with problems. Must be a gutting feeling.

#19119 jj2728

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Posted 06 May 2012 - 21:43

4/4 races with problems. Must be a gutting feeling.


Frustrating yes, gutting? I doubt it.

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#19120 Pamphlet

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Posted 06 May 2012 - 21:45

Frustrating yes, gutting? I doubt it.


Nah, it's gotten way past mere frustration.
One would understand having a problem once in a while. Twice in a row, it becomes annoying. But four times? Especially after seeing your teammate luck out and win the race, proving that the car may well be a race winner? That's too much.

#19121 halifaxf1fan

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Posted 06 May 2012 - 22:05

did you actually watch any of the races this year?



Yes I have Mike, he is driving ok but so far it doesn't look like he is going to beat his team mate let alone win the championship. And winning is what he came back to do -

"I'm now with the team that won both titles last year. We have on top Mercedes as a partner and team owner. So you cannot expect anything else than to go for the world championship, and that's what we're aiming for."

He is in a bit of a bind after three years back and still poor results. The tire issue gives him a way to vent and switch the attention away from his two points in the first four races.

Now if he wins the next race all will be good again.

#19122 MikeTekRacing

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Posted 06 May 2012 - 22:32

Yes I have Mike, he is driving ok but so far it doesn't look like he is going to beat his team mate let alone win the championship.

How did you understand he isn't going to beat his team mate? in the first race he was in front, in the second race he finished in front....
ok, nico was a bit better in china (ms would have got a podium though) and in bahrain they were pretty close

of course points-wise it looks terrible but that's hardly his fault. He hasn't actually put a wheel wrong so far, rather solid drives.

I agree he's here to win a championship but he can't do it alone. he needs a team

#19123 baddog

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Posted 06 May 2012 - 22:46

Yes I have Mike, he is driving ok but so far it doesn't look like he is going to beat his team mate let alone win the championship.

You said that he cannot keep up to the current drivers on race day. You would accept that that is completely wrong perhaps? What you are now saying is something completely different.

#19124 halifaxf1fan

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Posted 06 May 2012 - 23:01

You said that he cannot keep up to the current drivers on race day. You would accept that that is completely wrong perhaps? What you are now saying is something completely different.


Sorry, he isn't winning races vs the current crop of drivers is how I meant that. In his former career he was the benchmark for winning.

#19125 ali_M

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Posted 07 May 2012 - 00:08

I never said that such behavior didn't exist back then. Of course it did. There were more than a few drivers who took things to the 'edge' and back and there always have been ever since the dawn of the sport and in all forms of motor racing.


I wasn't really directing my 'don't come now and get all sanctimonious about such behaviour not existing back then...' comment at you but at Sir Stewart. All respect to him etc., but what a self-righteous man!

#19126 oetzi

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Posted 07 May 2012 - 00:20

I wasn't really directing my 'don't come now and get all sanctimonious about such behaviour not existing back then...' comment at you but at Sir Stewart. All respect to him etc., but what a self-righteous man!

Somebody else once thought something similar about him.

“It's annoying that some of the sponsors listen to him because he's won a few championships. But nobody else in Formula One does — not the teams, not the drivers. He's a figure of fun among drivers...He goes round dressed up as a 1930s music hall man. He's a certified halfwit.”

As a Scotsman, I can't really comment.

#19127 Sakae

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Posted 07 May 2012 - 01:58

If no one listens to him, what was then all that racket about tires? I thought that you are saying that no one cares...



#19128 Muz Bee

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Posted 07 May 2012 - 02:08

I wasn't really directing my 'don't come now and get all sanctimonious about such behaviour not existing back then...' comment at you but at Sir Stewart. All respect to him etc., but what a self-righteous man!

No, just a forthright man, something lacking in today's drivers. His era may be 4 decades ago but give him some credit for knowing what's going on out there that fans don't really appreciate. Interestingly the type of comments that most "moderns" take issue with him on are matters of "ethics", something in short supply these days.

Edited by Muz Bee, 07 May 2012 - 02:09.


#19129 ali_M

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Posted 07 May 2012 - 02:09

Somebody else once thought something similar about him.

“It's annoying that some of the sponsors listen to him because he's won a few championships. But nobody else in Formula One does — not the teams, not the drivers. He's a figure of fun among drivers...He goes round dressed up as a 1930s music hall man. He's a certified halfwit.”

As a Scotsman, I can't really comment.


Ah yes, Mosely had to put up with his share of so many taking on the role of sanctimonious 'back seat drivers'. When he got defensive, he could be caustic. Whew! :drunk:

#19130 ali_M

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Posted 07 May 2012 - 02:34

No, just a forthright man, something lacking. His era may be 4 decades ago but give him some credit for knowing what's going on out there that fans don't really appreciate. Interestingly the type of comments that most "moderns" take issue with him on are matters of "ethics", something in short supply these days.


I suggest giving yourself some credit. He knows about driving and his track record speaks for this. I've read his autobiography and I've read other points of view from similarly experienced F1 figures. He has a point of view on current F1 issues and that's all. He doesn't know what's going on. There's no real knowledge about issues as these but just a point of view; in this case, from a veteran and therefore a weighted one. :) I do respect this. However, I make up my own mind since no opinion/POV on matters as these is above reproach. Sir Stewart is just as prone to bias as anyone else. What pundits or their supporters may wish for you to feel is that you can't have a worthwhile or more balanced opinion/POV about such matters. It's this sort of misplaced moral authority that I personally am against. In fact it often takes a view from the outside to brings those all embroiled on the inside to a more refreshing and even perspective. Things being better in the old days and such sanctimony never really makes for progress, but just nostalgia. :) I may not be able to comment about how to drive a race car on the limit or how to build one etc. However, on basic ethics and sanctimony, one can see the latter easily and formulate one's own opinion on the former. No technical know how or experience required there since the principles are universal.

Ethical issues change on the surface, but don't be fooled into thinking that ethical behavior is in less supply than before. That's an unfortunately superficial perspective to have and a very 'sexy' one for the elder statesman who takes comfort in the apparently morally superior era in which he really lived and therefore better understand, rather than the era in which he's more a spectator than a genuine participant. Take the debate to the elder statesmen and it will quickly be evident to both parties that things are simply different. The claim of better times on either side quickly changes into an admission that things were and are simply different once both parties are willing to listen and not be sanctimonious.

Back to Schumi.... it's such a welcome relief that he doesn't get involved in the sanctimony and he likely never will.

Edited by ali_M, 07 May 2012 - 02:36.


#19131 RayInTorontoCanada

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Posted 07 May 2012 - 03:40

In order to prevent this escalating, I'll explain it to you Ray.

Adelaide 1995 was Mika's near fatal crash, when he sustained head injuries and was placed in a medical coma for a few days. His recovery was only matched by the miraculous survival in the 1st place.

Melbourne 2001 was a big crash, but wasn't 'near-fatal' at all, sure it was a very scary crash as his front suspension broke and he piled into the wall, but given a marshal did actually lose his life in that same race, to call it as outrageously as you did is a little insensitive imo. Incidentally, I agree MH appeared to be spooked by the crash, he actually pitted at Monaco fearing a car issue, and McLaren could find none so sent him back out. There's little doubt it did play a part in his decision to take a sabbatical that turned into a retirement at the end of the season. For the record, it was imo a really big smash, but I'm also sure it wasn't THE biggest crash that season.... watch the race at Spa and look for Irvine & Burti tangling at Blanchimont.

The reason, I suspect, people have been aggressive in their attitudes here towards you are that you seen entrenched in your position debating the "worthiness" of MS's titles and his overall ability. When you take that position but then continually repeat a> an error such as getting a location & date of a bad crash wrong & b> refuse to admit to said error, it does give the appearance that you're not interested terribly in the facts & are perhaps here just to downplay a driver.

Either way, your credibility took a hit in the eyes of those who disagree with you, you've given them ammunition to debate your views.


Mighty,

You don't need to explain as I watched every one of Mika's F1 races and have almost all of them on tape.

I also saw him race live in person in F1 as far back as his pre-McLaren period - at the Canadian GPs in the early 1990s when he was a youngster at Lotus.

I very well know that the Adelaide one in 95 was near fatal...but I don't think the Melbourne one in '01 was peanuts!

It could have been fatal and it had a big enough impact that it lead to his retirement.

How does anyone here know whether a big crash can or can't be "near fatal"...life and death is a matter of inches.

Perhaps I used phraseology which wasn't to everyone's precise lingo...but I certainly didn't make an "error". Unless you're God, you will never know whether a BIG shunt would have been "near fatal" or not!

In the end, I'm calling Schuey out for not getting on with the 2012 Pirellis. And I started it all by saying that he enjoyed some very special Bridgestones in the early 2000s that helped him win a lot with a teammate who was wasnt his calibre and who was obliged to move over.

Now that he doesn't have a tyre and a teammate advantage the likes of which he had in 2000-2004 and the competitive landscape is much, much stiffer (especially with Alonso, Vettel, Hamilton and the like on the scene), he's crying!




#19132 baddog

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Posted 07 May 2012 - 04:05

You don't need to explain as I watched every one of Mika's F1 races and have almost all of them on tape.

You either did not know/forgot it was his 1995 crash that nearly killed him, or you were lying about 2001. In 2001 he was not in anything that could rationally be described as a near-fatal crash. If we are not sure which it is, then your actual words.. "his near-fatal accident at Adelaide in 2001".. clear it up. You got your facts twisted about (Adelaide in 2001??), and instead of acting like a grownup and admitting it you are still back-pedaling furiously.

This is all rather far from the topic perhaps, but it speaks to the level of competition Michael had. Mika was a competitor at the highest possible level for a long time.

#19133 Muz Bee

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Posted 07 May 2012 - 04:27

Back to Schumi.... it's such a welcome relief that he doesn't get involved in the sanctimony and he likely never will.

Nor ethics :lol: - same ol' Schumie.

#19134 Raelene

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Posted 07 May 2012 - 05:39

......

Now that he doesn't have a tyre and a teammate advantage the likes of which he had in 2000-2004 and the competitive landscape is much, much stiffer (especially with Alonso, Vettel, Hamilton and the like on the scene), he's crying!


watch the fning video - he's not crying at all and blaming tyres for his non result...I guess ifyou can't even get a race date right, no chance of you understanding a simple statement...

#19135 ivand911

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Posted 07 May 2012 - 08:41

Unless you're God, you will never
In the end, I'm calling Schuey out for not getting on with the 2012 Pirellis.

Who is getting on with 2012 Pirellis? Alonso, Lewis, Button, Vettel, Rosberg? Who? It is some team cars and engineers that are getting on with 2012 Pirellis(on rare or often occasions), not the drivers. There isn't much for what a driver can do for 2012 Pirellis to work on his car.

Edited by ivand911, 07 May 2012 - 08:48.


#19136 MightyMoose

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Posted 07 May 2012 - 11:44

Ray,

You are not getting my point, and it's quite clear that you're determined to continue on this course of yours.

I said you refused to admit to making an error over "Adelaide 2001" and weren't helping your credibility by refusing to admit to it..... you then say "but I certainly didn't make an "error"... er ok. Even if we assume you were only talking about the possibility of the Melbourne 2001 crash, then I maintain it wasn't even the biggest crash in the race and as I see it, it's in poor taste to claim "near-fatal" given a marshal was killed in JV/RS crash of that race. I've already told you of 1 crash which was also clearly bigger that year, yet you ignored that totally in your reactionary posture. We could go through all sorts of crashes over the years and say "what if?"

As for calling MS out on the tires, it's clear you're unaware of what he actually said & in what context and because of that you've resorted to a sad rehash of 'bashing' past achievements. You point out he had a team-mate who "had to move over" yet seem to fail to realize that in 2002, MS gave RB at least 1 win in return and you could argue he gave him 3. But you never hear RB talking about that do you? It's been done to death & doesn't need you or anyone else bringing it up to support a 'cause'.

The competition may well be stronger now, but I don't think MS is 'crying' at all, he has after all looked pretty speedy this season and but for horrendous luck could potentially have grabbed 1 or 2 podiums.

I only interjected to try to prevent this spiraling out of control, if it seems that you wish to continue this debate, please do so via PM.

#19137 RayInTorontoCanada

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Posted 07 May 2012 - 13:40

Ray,

You are not getting my point, and it's quite clear that you're determined to continue on this course of yours.

I said you refused to admit to making an error over "Adelaide 2001" and weren't helping your credibility by refusing to admit to it..... you then say "but I certainly didn't make an "error"... er ok. Even if we assume you were only talking about the possibility of the Melbourne 2001 crash, then I maintain it wasn't even the biggest crash in the race and as I see it, it's in poor taste to claim "near-fatal" given a marshal was killed in JV/RS crash of that race. I've already told you of 1 crash which was also clearly bigger that year, yet you ignored that totally in your reactionary posture. We could go through all sorts of crashes over the years and say "what if?"

As for calling MS out on the tires, it's clear you're unaware of what he actually said & in what context and because of that you've resorted to a sad rehash of 'bashing' past achievements. You point out he had a team-mate who "had to move over" yet seem to fail to realize that in 2002, MS gave RB at least 1 win in return and you could argue he gave him 3. But you never hear RB talking about that do you? It's been done to death & doesn't need you or anyone else bringing it up to support a 'cause'.

The competition may well be stronger now, but I don't think MS is 'crying' at all, he has after all looked pretty speedy this season and but for horrendous luck could potentially have grabbed 1 or 2 podiums.

I only interjected to try to prevent this spiraling out of control, if it seems that you wish to continue this debate, please do so via PM.


Ok,

I admit my "error" - Adelaide v Melbourne - in 2001. Yes, It was an error of venue not because i'm mindless, but because of haste of typing (kinda like saying Hockenheim 2011 when in fact it was 'Nurburgring 2011' or 'Germany 2011');

Secondly, my phraseology "near fatal" was, perhaps, 'strong'...but, as i repeatedly said, it was terrible enough for him to make a retirement decision with his wife.

Lastly, I apologise to all the Schuey fans for suggesting he's "crying" about the current Pirellis.

I hope you and every other Shumi Lover is happy with my three sentences above and the idea of 'escelation' ends here and now.

Happy?

:wave:

#19138 libano

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Posted 07 May 2012 - 15:45

It's really time for another race weekend and hopefully a good showing by MSC.

barcelona will be fascinating to watch, with most teams bringing major upgrades to the table.

Edited by Mandzipop, 07 May 2012 - 15:55.
Discussing the merits of the PF1 posters is not relevant to this discussion


#19139 MikeTekRacing

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Posted 07 May 2012 - 16:33

In the end, I'm calling Schuey out for not getting on with the 2012 Pirellis. And I started it all by saying that he enjoyed some very special Bridgestones in the early 2000s that helped him win a lot with a teammate who was wasnt his calibre and who was obliged to move over.

Now that he doesn't have a tyre and a teammate advantage the likes of which he had in 2000-2004 and the competitive landscape is much, much stiffer (especially with Alonso, Vettel, Hamilton and the like on the scene), he's crying!

for a mika fan it's very interesting you ignore the 90s....for instance when he was battling the better mclarens in his non bridgestone car. remember those days?
how about his pre 98 career? ignore that also?

if you want to spread sh!t around here then fine. it's a free "opinion" based forum.

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#19140 RayInTorontoCanada

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Posted 07 May 2012 - 19:05

for a mika fan it's very interesting you ignore the 90s....for instance when he was battling the better mclarens in his non bridgestone car. remember those days?
how about his pre 98 career? ignore that also?

if you want to spread sh!t around here then fine. it's a free "opinion" based forum.


The McLarens, after Honda left at the end of 1992, were nowhere - other than a massively supreme Senna in 1993 - for nearly half a decade during "the 90s..."

Poor Mika had a relatively shit car to drive in 1994, 1995, 1996 and the most part of 1997. The best he could have hoped for those years were 3rd place podiums/odd 2nd. Things changed toward the very tail end of 1997.

Mika didn't get a proper season-long winning car until 1998 and 1999.

So, my friend, that was McLaren in "the 90s..." following Schumacher's first Grand Prix win in the final part of 1992.

Oh, and the '99 Ferrari was so poor ( insert silly bugger grin here ) in comparison to the McLaren that An All Time Great ( insert joke icon here ) like Eddie Ervine ( :wave: ) nearly beat Mika to the 99 title!!! :drunk:

So, for most of the 1990s, Shuey had way superior packages than most things Mika could get his hands on. 1991, 1993/4, 1995, 1996, 1997...years that the Benetton or Ferraris had the measure of Mika's Lotus and McLarens. 98/99 was more level pegging...but when you think of how Eddie Irvine (who doesn't even make the Top 40 or 45 in historical All Time Lists) nearly beat Mika in 1999, you have to wonder how "better" (your word) that year's McLaren was V the Ferrari!

Gimme a frikkin' break!

I was willing to drop it after my previous post...but rubbish like what your just wrote, my friend, needs to be countered.

Edited by RayInTorontoCanada, 07 May 2012 - 19:10.


#19141 ivand911

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Posted 07 May 2012 - 19:21

Ray ,we really want to read something interesting in this thread. About MS. The things you post are boring and OT. Whoever reads them?

#19142 MightyMoose

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Posted 07 May 2012 - 19:38

I do Ivan911, and so do others. He's fully entitled to post here.

If you don't like what he posts, you have options:
1> Report him
2> Debate with him and explain where you feel he may be mistaken
3> Ignore him

You or anyone else should avoid telling him he can't post. That's against the rules of the forum so please avoid that.

The Hakkinen 2001 issue was connected to MS & his legacy, I feel Ray was mistaken in some of his assessments and took him to task for that (using option2!). Any other OT posts have been removed.

#19143 jj2728

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Posted 07 May 2012 - 19:47

No, just a forthright man, something lacking in today's drivers. His era may be 4 decades ago but give him some credit for knowing what's going on out there that fans don't really appreciate. Interestingly the type of comments that most "moderns" take issue with him on are matters of "ethics", something in short supply these days.


Thankyou. Nice to read that someone else agrees with my points of view.

#19144 ivand911

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Posted 07 May 2012 - 19:56

I do Ivan911, and so do others. He's fully entitled to post here.

If you don't like what he posts, you have options:
1> Report him
2> Debate with him and explain where you feel he may be mistaken
3> Ignore him

You or anyone else should avoid telling him he can't post. That's against the rules of the forum so please avoid that.
The Hakkinen 2001 issue was connected to MS & his legacy, I feel Ray was mistaken in some of his assessments and took him to task for that (using option2!). Any other OT posts have been removed.

I really didn't tell him not to post here. I just read Mika 1992-1999 , 2001 was not there and what is the connection with MS? This all thing is more connected with some Hakkinen thread. Or MS vs MH thread, though is little late for that, IMHO. I personally believe that MH himself doesn't have any sleep deprivation by problems discussed here.


#19145 Owen

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Posted 08 May 2012 - 09:18

Not happy
http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/99437

Edited by Owen, 08 May 2012 - 09:19.


#19146 puxanando

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Posted 08 May 2012 - 09:22

Not happy
http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/99437

Schumi don't love the Pirellis at all :rotfl:

"We drive like on raw eggs and I don't want to stress the tyres at all. Otherwise you just overdo it and you go nowhere."



#19147 Owen

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Posted 08 May 2012 - 09:25

Schumi don't love the Pirellis at all :rotfl:

It's actually getting to point where someone ought to calm him down a bit. Making these kind of comments about your tyre supplier may not do you any favours at some point in the future. I wonder what on earth the guys at Pirelli make of this?

#19148 ali.unal

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Posted 08 May 2012 - 09:27

It's actually getting to point where someone ought to calm him down a bit. Making these kind of comments about your tyre supplier may not do you any favours at some point in the future. I wonder what on earth the guys at Pirelli make of this?

Can you elaborate on that, please?

#19149 PoliFanAthic

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Posted 08 May 2012 - 09:29

Let the man speak his mind. Better than all the doublespeak and platitudes going around.

Would do him some good to get a positive result or two before any other attacks though, because it's clear that popular opinion is that his lack of results is the reason for all these complaints.

#19150 ali_M

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Posted 08 May 2012 - 09:30

Not happy
http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/99437


I can just imagine the series of interviews this weekend that show Michael all alone with his POV. :)

The anti-schumi fans will have something to sink their claws in for sure.

You let them know Michael. Look at what happened at WSBK last weekend and Pirelli are being just as defensive. :well: