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#19201 RayInTorontoCanada

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Posted 08 May 2012 - 18:11

For the first time ever (and i mean EVER) we actually didn't have a dire, boring, snoozefest of a GP in Bahrain.

Bahrain - a Tilke Track with a snowball's chance in hell of having a rain shower making things interesting.

This year we actually got some exitement at the heretofore most boring GP ever.

Why did that happen?

The Tyres. That the F1 'circus' asked the manufacturer to create in order to stop the kind of boring shit we used to get at many circuits.

You can't have it both ways.

At least this time, I didn't turn off the tv after half distance and at least this year i'll be happy to pay for air fair and hotel and tickets to Montreal, something which I couldn't have been bothered with at the point-quirt-point-squirt races where they wera all on three or four stints of equal amounts of fuel and the only excitement that took place was "an over-take in the pits" following a fuel stop.

That was Grand Prix racing at it's shitiest.

Thank heavens those point-squirt days are over and we have Grand Prix drivers doing a Grand Prix drivers jop like the Prosts and Sennas and Stewarts and Clarks used to do.

Micheal is making himself look foolish. He should shut up and drive the car and try and beat Rosberg. You don't hear Rosberg or Alonso or Vettel or Hamilton complaining, do you? Heck, even Webber - the loudest mouth of them all - is getting on with the job they're being paid millions to do.

They are being paid 10, 20, 30 Million to, effectively, "entertain" us. Michael's getting the sharp end of that amount and should remember that before making himself sound like a greedy child who can't do anything with what EVERYONE else has been given to do their job with!

Edited by RayInTorontoCanada, 08 May 2012 - 18:18.


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#19202 puxanando

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Posted 08 May 2012 - 18:37

Micheal is making himself look foolish. He should shut up and drive the car and try and beat Rosberg. You don't hear Rosberg or Alonso or Vettel or Hamilton complaining, do you? Heck, even Webber - the loudest mouth of them all - is getting on with the job they're being paid millions to do.

They are being paid 10, 20, 30 Million to, effectively, "entertain" us. Michael's getting the sharp end of that amount and should remember that before making himself sound like a greedy child who can't do anything with what EVERYONE else has been given to do their job with!


:up: CLEAR as water....I see it the same way..................


#19203 RacingReporter

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Posted 08 May 2012 - 18:39

Yes, that's why he was seen as the better driver last season and only finished behind due to more technical retirements. 2010 was a reasonable flop but 2011 is no coincidence as you must have noticed he outqualified Rosberg twice and at least matched Nico's performance on-track, except maybe for China.

Who the hell are you to say he has got to get a grip and move on? He is doing that, only we see seriously quickly fading tyres. His complaint is about the way you have to handle the tyres, not the way he is handling himself against the rest of the field. Tyres are influencing results big time, they should be less input-sensitive because you can throw them over the cliff in a second. Than only tyre management skill is required, not your abilities to get hundreds of a second back in each corner compared to the competition. Racing is a mix of those two, fact, but talented drivers like Hamilton are wasting away because the balance between the two skill requiring ingredients is gone. It's artificial, nothing more, nothing less.

I'm calling for an construction improvement because this turned into Formula Fake ever since Pirelli walked into F1. The grip levels are good but the durability is tear-worthy. I think Pirelli is a win for F1 but only if they manage to iron out the inconsistencies and durability problems. Delivering tyres which are two tyre specs out of range is just bullshit. Bridgestone was at the other end of the line, grip was relatively poor but the durability went over the moon. The balance is somewhere in between.

Curious what they are going to do with this, if I look at Hembreys statements it's going to be nothing unless the FIA calls for it. Funfact: Paul Hembreys Twitter account was deleted. The critics must have overwhelmed his channel :')

:up: CLEAR as water....I see it the same way..................

You are ignoring my post which was directly to you, thus proving my point.

Edited by RacingReporter, 08 May 2012 - 18:46.


#19204 exmayol

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Posted 08 May 2012 - 18:48

Micheal is making himself look foolish. He should shut up and drive the car and try and beat Rosberg. You don't hear Rosberg or Alonso or Vettel or Hamilton complaining, do you? Heck, even Webber - the loudest mouth of them all - is getting on with the job they're being paid millions to do.

They are being paid 10, 20, 30 Million to, effectively, "entertain" us. Michael's getting the sharp end of that amount and should remember that before making himself sound like a greedy child who can't do anything with what EVERYONE else has been given to do their job with!


Sorry mate but they are not paid to entertain you. They are paid to deliver results and promote the brand they represent. It is responsibility of Bernie & Co to make that process somehow entertaining. DRS, questionable tires, etc... they are succeeding. I'm not sure everyone likes that entertaining though. If you do - great. I prefer 1998 / 2000 / 2003 kind of entertainment, much more logical and easier to comprehend.

The drivers who are not vocal might have their own reasons but it does not mean they are necessarily happy with the tyre situation. Now regarding Webber, don't even know why you would bring this biggest hypocrite on the whole grid here.

Finally, by no means MS makes himself foolish. He never bitches aka JPM and the likes. In fact he speaks up rarely but to the point.

#19205 spacekid

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Posted 08 May 2012 - 18:57

Thank heavens those point-squirt days are over and we have Grand Prix drivers doing a Grand Prix drivers jop like the Prosts and Sennas and Stewarts and Clarks used to do.


It isn't though, is it? The Prosts Sennas and Clarks had to manage their tyres, but they did so themselves and could also push without destroying the tyres. Now the cars are covered in sensors and the drivers are told what times to drive based on computer simulations. If they push the tyres fall apart and you get your 'action'. It isn't the same at all.

I don't understand why people can't understand that Michael isn't saying the tyres are to blame for his poor season - because he's actually driven fine so far - he is simply saying not being able to push at all during an F1 race is unsatisfying for him. I agree with him.

#19206 Szoelloe

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Posted 08 May 2012 - 19:01

:up: CLEAR as water....I see it the same way..................


Of course you do. As soon as FA backs MS on this you will change your mind. There is a heavy debate on the tyre situation, and only MS has cared to speak out on it. As some posters have already pointed out, MS is in the situation to do that wothout actually harming himself or his team. Now, if you - or anybody for that matter - would show me a direct quote where any of the other drivers have said anything other on this when asked that 'it is good for the show/sport', the beer's on me.(Bailey's or soda pop for you) So far, no active driver has expressed his profound love for these tyres. Many of you quote Webbo as saying it is fine. But he started his comment with "of course we all would want ... or sthing to that extent. So saying that MS is making himself look foolish is kind of very dumb, sorry. If there is somebody on the grid at all to make a comment on a tyre, than it is him. He drove on them all, and won on them all. (uhmm, ok, not Michelin)

saying that what you see is enjoyable for various, self imposed reasons, is ok. It is enjoyable for a while. But artificial suspense will soon wear itself out, and it will become a farce. For god's sake, its frigging tyres, should not be more important than the car and the driver.


#19207 Afterburner

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Posted 08 May 2012 - 19:04

How I read today's Autosport headline:

"SCHUMACHER RENEWS--"

:D :D :D

"--ATTACK ON PIRELLI TYRES"

:well: :well: :well:

#19208 F1Champion

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Posted 08 May 2012 - 19:48

What people forget is that these drivers wouldn't mind managing tyres if they could use them knowing that the drop off was consistent. Everyone talks about the 80's but the characteristics of those tyres were conventional, the tyres lasted for a known amount of laps (roughly) and as a result you could take life out of the tyre early in the stint knowing that in the last 10 laps you might be scrabbling for grip (Senna v Prost), but that was a choice you had. These Pirellis are different though, you can't push for more than a couple of laps because you overheat the carcass and the tyre life immediately falls to nil. In addition they don't gradually fall off, but hit the cliff in the space of a couple of laps and their peak operating window is extremely small. As a result you are driving within yourself to keep the tyres alive....that is completely different to the 80's in my opinion.




#19209 Szoelloe

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Posted 08 May 2012 - 19:56

What people forget is that these drivers wouldn't mind managing tyres if they could use them knowing that the drop off was consistent. Everyone talks about the 80's but the characteristics of those tyres were conventional, the tyres lasted for a known amount of laps (roughly) and as a result you could take life out of the tyre early in the stint knowing that in the last 10 laps you might be scrabbling for grip (Senna v Prost), but that was a choice you had. These Pirellis are different though, you can't push for more than a couple of laps because you overheat the carcass and the tyre life immediately falls to nil. In addition they don't gradually fall off, but hit the cliff in the space of a couple of laps and their peak operating window is extremely small. As a result you are driving within yourself to keep the tyres alive....that is completely different to the 80's in my opinion.



At last somebody points that out. Prost ( as the archetype of smooth driving )had the option of nursing the tyres and knew when he could push. He was an artist. Now there is no option, You nurse, or you are done. MS is just pointing that out. I don't think even Button has a problem with that.

#19210 schubacca

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Posted 08 May 2012 - 20:00

Of course you do. As soon as FA backs MS on this you will change your mind. There is a heavy debate on the tyre situation, and only MS has cared to speak out on it. As some posters have already pointed out, MS is in the situation to do that wothout actually harming himself or his team. Now, if you - or anybody for that matter - would show me a direct quote where any of the other drivers have said anything other on this when asked that 'it is good for the show/sport', the beer's on me.(Bailey's or soda pop for you) So far, no active driver has expressed his profound love for these tyres. Many of you quote Webbo as saying it is fine. But he started his comment with "of course we all would want ... or sthing to that extent. So saying that MS is making himself look foolish is kind of very dumb, sorry. If there is somebody on the grid at all to make a comment on a tyre, than it is him. He drove on them all, and won on them all. (uhmm, ok, not Michelin)

saying that what you see is enjoyable for various, self imposed reasons, is ok. It is enjoyable for a while. But artificial suspense will soon wear itself out, and it will become a farce. For god's sake, its frigging tyres, should not be more important than the car and the driver.


Agreed.

So far we have heard:

1) MS is the only one complaining

2) MS is whining

3) MS was not complaining when Bridgestone provided his tyres

4) MS should try to beat Rosberg

What we have not heard from those anti-MS individuals is a commentary on what Pirelli is doing.

This is what Paul Hembery is saying...

Pirelli's motorsport director Paul Hembery believes that path will ensure that teams are kept on their toes in working out how best to execute the grand prix - which should in turn help produce a good race.

"We've nominated the soft and hard tyre in order to highlight performance differences that will create a different challenge for the teams, showcasing both the speed and durability of our products," he said.

"There is a whole step in between our two nominations for the first time this year and this should allow the teams to come up with a number of different tyre strategies that could make a big difference to the final outcome.

"With many teams having expanded their knowledge of our tyre range and tested new components at Mugello, we're expecting a closely-fought Spanish Grand Prix - and maybe even the fifth different winner in five races."


Some questions.....

Who told Pirelli that it is their job to keep teams "on their toes"? It was not the FIA..... They told them to increase tyre degradation. So that which was gleaned in previous races is now irrelevant because Pirelli is PURPOSELY throwing curveballs at teams.

Showcasing the SPEED and DURABILITY of your tyres? One tyre is quick..... the other is durable...... None are quick and durable.

Who told Pirelli to be concerned with the final outcome? It was not the FIA.... They told you once again to increase tyre degradation.

Why is Pirelli looking forward to a 5th winner? Does that mean that they want 20 different winners this season? I want MS to win..... Not like this.....

Some are mentioning that tyre management is nothing new...... It isn't. MS drove with Goodyears and Bridgestones, and now Pirelli's.... What Senna and Prost and Clark etc.... did not have to worry about is a tyre company dicking around and throwing curveballs BY THEIR OWN ADMISSION to the teams.

MS is not saying anything radical. He just has the balls to speak his mind because he is bigger that Pirelli and has 7 WDCs already.

It is just too bad that some are shooting the messenger....



#19211 654321

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Posted 08 May 2012 - 20:33

keep pounding'em Mike

i especially loved the "raw eggs" comparison....hattori hanzo sword precision from Michael(as usual..whatelse is new)

#19212 puxanando

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Posted 08 May 2012 - 21:11

Fake Charlie Whiting ‏ @charlie_whiting
Oh, Michael. Britney's win was "lucky" and your fail to finish was "unlucky". And driving on raw eggs? Really?


:lol:

VIDEO...driving on "eggs"

Edited by puxanando, 08 May 2012 - 21:17.


#19213 Schumacher7

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Posted 08 May 2012 - 21:29

What does it even mean driving on raw eggs anyway, as opposed to driving on cooked eggs. :L Whats so special about raw ones, I can't imagine there's much difference between the two gripwise.

#19214 spacekid

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Posted 08 May 2012 - 21:37

What does it even mean driving on raw eggs anyway, as opposed to driving on cooked eggs. :L Whats so special about raw ones, I can't imagine there's much difference between the two gripwise.


Does he mean its like walking on egg shells? :cat:

#19215 RayInTorontoCanada

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Posted 08 May 2012 - 22:12

Sorry mate but they are not paid to entertain you. They are paid to deliver results and promote the brand they represent. It is responsibility of Bernie & Co to make that process somehow entertaining.


Sorry bud, they are paid to entertain us and keep us watching so we, en masse, can buy whatever shit they're selling in the aggregate.

Bernie, CCV Partners and every stakeholder in F1 wants tv numbers up, not down.

Euroland is absolutely going down the shitter economically (left with probably 6 or 7 races a year in due time) and China is slowing in terms of economic growth. Mercedes rumoured to be pulling out of F1 a few weeks ago (I don't believe it...but it WAS rumoured). The Global economy isn't as robust as it used to be in the mid 00s and you don't see Audi or Ford or whoever dying to enter F1, do you?

All these firms have left is tv numbers and if you think "entertainment" doesn't matter, then you're economically naive.

As per "delivering results" (your words, not mine), well, Michael hasn't delivered any and is still getting paid 30 Million a season.

He's there to entertain a global audience and, in doing so, promote Mercedes brand as a competitive entrant in Formula One. Mercedes is paying him 30 Million a year to drive the bloody car effectively and he's been paid 90 Million over three years to deliver, to date, zero f***ing podiums.

The only thing that will keep tv numbers up is entertaining races, not the processional pieces of shit we used to get at Bahrain year after year (until this year).

Cheers, mate. :wave:

Edited by RayInTorontoCanada, 08 May 2012 - 22:20.


#19216 spacekid

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Posted 08 May 2012 - 22:17

The phrase 'what are you really angry about?' springs to mind.

All this because a racing driver doesn't like that his tyres degrade rapidly if pushed?

#19217 RayInTorontoCanada

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Posted 08 May 2012 - 22:20

I'm not angry.

I'm making observations.

:)

Schuey doesn't have to opt for the strategy that entails "nursing tyres while going relatively fast";

He can go "flat out using all the tyres at his disposal"

He can make one extra stop than everyone else and go balls out on them more than the other drivers on fewer stops...OR...he can use up all the harder tyres and go balls out on them while others are nursing Options...OR...he can leave Formula One and let di Resta or Hulkenberg or another very good driver who already has wins under his belt (like Hamilton (as a remote possibility) or Raikkonen (as another possibility) have a shot at his seat.

It's a free world.

Edited by RayInTorontoCanada, 08 May 2012 - 22:28.


#19218 rtech

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Posted 08 May 2012 - 22:21

Make the best with what you have Michael , you did it for years with Ferrari i,m sure you can do it again.


#19219 jbarokF1

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Posted 08 May 2012 - 22:24

Sorry bud, they are paid to entertain us and keep us watching so we, en masse, can buy whatever shit they're selling in the aggregate.

Bernie, CCV Partners and every stakeholder in F1 wants tv numbers up, not down.

Euroland is absolutely going down the shitter economically (left with probably 6 or 7 races a year in due time) and China is slowing in terms of economic growth. Mercedes rumoured to be pulling out of F1 a few weeks ago (I don't believe it...but it WAS rumoured). The Global economy isn't as robust as it used to be in the mid 00s and you don't see Audi or Ford or whoever dying to enter F1, do you?

All these firms have left is tv numbers and if you think "entertainment" doesn't matter, then you're economically naive.

As per "delivering results" (your words, not mine), well, Michael hasn't delivered any and is still getting paid 30 Million a season.

He's there to entertain a global audience and, in doing so, promote Mercedes brand as a competitive entrant in Formula One. Mercedes is paying him 30 Million a year to drive the bloody car effectively and he's been paid 90 Million over three years to deliver, to date, zero f***ing podiums.

The only thing that will keep tv numbers up is entertaining races, not the processional pieces of shit we used to get at Bahrain year after year (until this year).

Cheers, mate. :wave:


:up:

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#19220 George Costanza

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Posted 08 May 2012 - 22:26

Make the best with what you have Michael , you did it for years with Ferrari i,m sure you can do it again.



The issue in the 1990s was the car mainly. Goodyear produced superior tires.

#19221 sharo

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Posted 08 May 2012 - 23:07

What if Michael is (again) playing a team game for Mercedes in their negotiations for the new Concorde?

#19222 Goron3

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Posted 08 May 2012 - 23:36

I'm not angry.

I'm making observations.

:)

Schuey doesn't have to opt for the strategy that entails "nursing tyres while going relatively fast";

He can go "flat out using all the tyres at his disposal"


He can make one extra stop than everyone else and go balls out on them more than the other drivers on fewer stops...OR...he can use up all the harder tyres and go balls out on them while others are nursing Options...OR...he can leave Formula One and let di Resta or Hulkenberg or another very good driver who already has wins under his belt (like Hamilton (as a remote possibility) or Raikkonen (as another possibility) have a shot at his seat.

It's a free world.


Every strategy requires nursing the tyres while going relatively fast. There are only 2 sets of tyres available for each race and they are all manufactured by Pirelli, think that's a small mistake on your past? You can't go 'flat out' as after lap 1 the tyres will have gone and you'll be inherently slower on the next laps more so than you would be than if you drove slowly on the first lap to match your delta.

Also, that would entail a 6-7 pitstops minimum per race and that's not feasible for 2 reasons. Firstly, the time lost in pit stops would be massive. Secondly, they don't have that many sets of tyres. Finally, only the first lap would be faster than others driving slowly to match their deltas; the tyres will be gone by then.

If you want help with strategies, you should check out James Allen's strategy calculator; it's free and easy to use and pretty accurate. Hope that helps dude :)

#19223 RayInTorontoCanada

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Posted 08 May 2012 - 23:48

Every strategy requires nursing the tyres while going relatively fast. There are only 2 sets of tyres available for each race and they are all manufactured by Pirelli, think that's a small mistake on your past? You can't go 'flat out' as after lap 1 the tyres will have gone and you'll be inherently slower on the next laps more so than you would be than if you drove slowly on the first lap to match your delta.

Also, that would entail a 6-7 pitstops minimum per race and that's not feasible for 2 reasons. Firstly, the time lost in pit stops would be massive. Secondly, they don't have that many sets of tyres. Finally, only the first lap would be faster than others driving slowly to match their deltas; the tyres will be gone by then.

If you want help with strategies, you should check out James Allen's strategy calculator; it's free and easy to use and pretty accurate. Hope that helps dude :)


Or he can retire from Formula One and let someone younger have a crack in that car.

Like I said, it's a free world.

I mean, there's always going to be just one, singular perfectly optimal tyre and tyre stop strategy for that iteration of car on that track on that day in history. Michael needs to get on with finding it in Europe, Canada and the like. No point in trying to continually diss the supplier that's been asked by all the stakeholders to make sure the tv ratings remain robust given the shitshow in the European and other global economies.

May 8th, 1982 - I still remember vividly the shock and agony!

RIP Gilles!


I remember it too!

RIP Gilles

Edited by RayInTorontoCanada, 08 May 2012 - 23:55.


#19224 exmayol

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Posted 09 May 2012 - 00:16

Sorry bud, they are paid to entertain us and keep us watching so we, en masse, can buy whatever shit they're selling in the aggregate.

Bernie, CCV Partners and every stakeholder in F1 wants tv numbers up, not down.

Euroland is absolutely going down the shitter economically (left with probably 6 or 7 races a year in due time) and China is slowing in terms of economic growth. Mercedes rumoured to be pulling out of F1 a few weeks ago (I don't believe it...but it WAS rumoured). The Global economy isn't as robust as it used to be in the mid 00s and you don't see Audi or Ford or whoever dying to enter F1, do you?

All these firms have left is tv numbers and if you think "entertainment" doesn't matter, then you're economically naive.

As per "delivering results" (your words, not mine), well, Michael hasn't delivered any and is still getting paid 30 Million a season.

He's there to entertain a global audience and, in doing so, promote Mercedes brand as a competitive entrant in Formula One. Mercedes is paying him 30 Million a year to drive the bloody car effectively and he's been paid 90 Million over three years to deliver, to date, zero f***ing podiums.

The only thing that will keep tv numbers up is entertaining races, not the processional pieces of shit we used to get at Bahrain year after year (until this year).

Cheers, mate. :wave:


What does eurozone crisis has to do with it? Do you bring it up along with MW to fill space in your post? Euro crisis affects a lot of things. So what? Not the first time, not the last.

Why do you worry so much how much MS is being paid? Something tells me Ross & Co know better if MS salary is well justified or not. Alonso has zero f***ing WDC wins with Ferrari, so what? Is he being overpaid? You can only do as good as your team / car permits. MS relative performance to NR has been discussed plenty so no point reminding that NR got few podiums and, dang, a win.

I doubt any driver has any clause in their contract about "go out and entertain as we have to sell our shit". Corporate ethics - yes. PR BS - yes. Entertainment, except PR events, no way. Teams are there to compete, not entertain. If good racing is in place that happens to be entertaining to watch and everyone is happy.

If you feel like teams must entertain you but dont - there is nascar, cage fights and other entertainment awaiting for you. Cheers!



#19225 RayInTorontoCanada

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Posted 09 May 2012 - 00:56

What does eurozone crisis has to do with it? Do you bring it up along with MW to fill space in your post? Euro crisis affects a lot of things. So what? Not the first time, not the last.

Why do you worry so much how much MS is being paid? Something tells me Ross & Co know better if MS salary is well justified or not. Alonso has zero f***ing WDC wins with Ferrari, so what? Is he being overpaid? You can only do as good as your team / car permits. MS relative performance to NR has been discussed plenty so no point reminding that NR got few podiums and, dang, a win.

I doubt any driver has any clause in their contract about "go out and entertain as we have to sell our shit". Corporate ethics - yes. PR BS - yes. Entertainment, except PR events, no way. Teams are there to compete, not entertain. If good racing is in place that happens to be entertaining to watch and everyone is happy.

If you feel like teams must entertain you but dont - there is nascar, cage fights and other entertainment awaiting for you. Cheers!


Yes but, my dear friend, you said that Micheal was paid only to get results for the brand [Post #19205].

I'm telling you the brand won't bother continuing in F1 - in the current poor economic climate - if (and i'm saying *if*) the tv rating don't stay up.

I'm also saying that Pirelli have been asked to spice things up by all the stakeholders (which includes Mercedes) so that ratings remain relatively good.

Now I ask you, do you think the Bahrain GP this year was 'entertaining'? Yes or No?

Do you think it was more entertaining that all the shit processions in Bahrain of yesteryears? Yes or No?

It's all relevent, you see. If you don't have healthy enough tv ratings at a time when Euroland is contracting and other major economies are slowing, then what's going to be in it for Mercedes?

I mean, am I out to lunch on this? There must be some sense in what i'm saying. No?

I mean, Bernie and all the team managers aren't complaining. They probably love it that the tv ratings aren't going down the shitter like the economy in Europe is and like many of the Grand Prix attendances.

Why do you think Spain is going down to 1 GP from two despite the fact that Alonso is paired up with Ferrari? Why?!?!

Why do you think Spa can hold 1 GP only every other year...and France can't hold a GP every year.

Look at the big picture man!

Michael can't be bothered to look at the big picture because he's got $1 Billion in the bank and is not going to be in F1 as long as the others.

Cheers.

Edited by RayInTorontoCanada, 09 May 2012 - 01:03.


#19226 RacingReporter

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Posted 09 May 2012 - 01:01

Sorry bud, they are paid to entertain us and keep us watching so we, en masse, can buy whatever shit they're selling in the aggregate.

Bernie, CCV Partners and every stakeholder in F1 wants tv numbers up, not down.

Euroland is absolutely going down the shitter economically (left with probably 6 or 7 races a year in due time) and China is slowing in terms of economic growth. Mercedes rumoured to be pulling out of F1 a few weeks ago (I don't believe it...but it WAS rumoured). The Global economy isn't as robust as it used to be in the mid 00s and you don't see Audi or Ford or whoever dying to enter F1, do you?

All these firms have left is tv numbers and if you think "entertainment" doesn't matter, then you're economically naive.

As per "delivering results" (your words, not mine), well, Michael hasn't delivered any and is still getting paid 30 Million a season.

He's there to entertain a global audience and, in doing so, promote Mercedes brand as a competitive entrant in Formula One. Mercedes is paying him 30 Million a year to drive the bloody car effectively and he's been paid 90 Million over three years to deliver, to date, zero f***ing podiums.

The only thing that will keep tv numbers up is entertaining races, not the processional pieces of shit we used to get at Bahrain year after year (until this year).

Cheers, mate. :wave:

EU zone problems have nothing to do with it, you're grasping at straws.

F1 is (was) state of the art technology and provides spectacle with its fast cars. Bernie & Co tried to up the pace by putting pressure on the FIA and OWG, who ultimately came up with f.e. DRS.

Get your facts straight by the way, Schumacher earns 8 million a year. Contractual clause on Rosbergs side that his teammate can't earn more than him. So no, not 30. And concerning podiums, 4-0 for Rosberg. Schumacher couldn't cope with it in 2010, that's 3. 2011: best team result by Schumacher. And the final one goes to China 2012, we all know what would have happened there if luck was on his side for once (oh, btw, Rosberg earned it).

If you like action, go watch Rambo 1-3 and Terminator 1 & 2. This is the highest tech sport with something to love for everyone (and hate, unfortunately). Not every race is a gem but there is plenty of spectacle to watch anyway. If you want overtakes which can be pulled off by that Call of Duty n00b-kid across the hallway, be my guest but that's not what F1 is about.

Edit:

Only TV-ratings? You'd better correct that one. Airtime is important, next to prize money, trophees and brand recognition.

Edited by RacingReporter, 09 May 2012 - 01:05.


#19227 RayInTorontoCanada

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Posted 09 May 2012 - 01:12

EU zone problems have nothing to do with it, you're grasping at straws.

F1 is (was) state of the art technology and provides spectacle with its fast cars. Bernie & Co tried to up the pace by putting pressure on the FIA and OWG, who ultimately came up with f.e. DRS.

Get your facts straight by the way, Schumacher earns 8 million a year. Contractual clause on Rosbergs side that his teammate can't earn more than him. So no, not 30. And concerning podiums, 4-0 for Rosberg. Schumacher couldn't cope with it in 2010, that's 3. And the final one goes to China 2012 and we all know what happened there.

If you like action, go watch Rambo 1-3 and Terminator 1 & 2. This is the highest tech sport with something to love for everyone (and hate, unfortunately). Not every race is a gem but there is plenty of spectacle to watch anyway. If you want overtakes which can be pulled off by that Call of Duty n00b-kid across the hallway, be my guest but that's not what F1 is about.

Edit:

Only TV-ratings? You'd better correct that one. Airtime is important, next to prize money, trophees and brand recognition.


You obvioulsy Wiki'd Schumi's salary but have no clue of anything else. You honestly think Schumi's paid only 8 Mil a year - the same amount as a guy who had no GP wins to his name when the contracts were signed? :drunk:

Don't be a naive moron, my friend!

And What the f**k does Rambo have anything to do with it? :lol:

I've been watching Grand Prix racing since childhood...since 1979 and have forgotten more stuff than you can possibly Wiki. You have no clue who I am and what I do for a living. So, I'll be civilized and say that your post is a bit rubbish in some places in that it's quite obviously intended to get a rise out of me. :yawnface:

I'm sure you can do better than that. So, please be my guest and try harder!

:wave:

EDIT

Who said I wanted over-takes? In Bahrain, Vettel held off Raikkonen and there was no over-take for the win. That's fine by me. No one's asking for shit piles of overtakes.

I'm merely saying that the main stakeholders asked the tyre supplier to help make the show more entertaining. That's all.

Edited by RayInTorontoCanada, 09 May 2012 - 01:20.


#19228 iakhtar

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Posted 09 May 2012 - 01:19

Some people are so focused on driver allegiances that they can't even see the problem. Hello! the tyres are shit, wake up and stop defending 'the show'

And Ray, singular perfectly optimal strategies would still exist even if the tyres were made of cheese, there would be no real racing and yet somebody somewhere would be fooled into defending them. Why can't we have better tyres? and why do you want MS to retire for speaking out? He is just saying what many of us are thinking, this isn't about being a fan of his or not.

Tyre conservation needs to be an option not a complete necessity, it has gone too far, I don't want to watch a driver not take a chance because his tyres would fall off a cliff or not being able to see an aggressive drive through the pack, how can anyone defend these rubbish tyres?

#19229 RayInTorontoCanada

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Posted 09 May 2012 - 01:29

Some people are so focused on driver allegiances that they can't even see the problem. Hello! the tyres are shit, wake up and stop defending 'the show'

And Ray, singular perfectly optimal strategies would still exist even if the tyres were made of cheese, there would be no real racing and yet somebody somewhere would be fooled into defending them. Why can't we have better tyres? and why do you want MS to retire for speaking out? He is just saying what many of us are thinking, this isn't about being a fan of his or not.

Tyre conservation needs to be an option not a complete necessity, it has gone too far, I don't want to watch a driver not take a chance because his tyres would fall off a cliff or not being able to see an aggressive drive through the pack, how can anyone defend these rubbish tyres?


I'm not defending these specific tyres per se'.

I do think they're better than what we used to have in years when, if it didn't rain on a Tilke Track, you'd get boring, mindless and horrible, horrible "processions". They were worse than Funeral Processions and, in my opinion, the worst F1 we ever saw.

Also, i'm not saying Michael should retire for speaking out.

I'm saying he's dissing a firm that was asked to come in - at a time when f***ing Bridgestone decided to bail on F1 - and help make F1 more entertaining. That was Pirelli's mandate. Pirelli are fullfilling their mandate as asked of them by the stakeholders.

I'm also saying Michael's free to retire if he doesn't like it.

It's a shame that this ended up in the Schuey thread because all I've seen is his supporters come in and bash me for basically telling everyone that F1's main stakeholders and Pirelli (the company that came in because Bridgstone decided to pull the plug not long after the other Jap firms - Honda and Toyota - pulled the plug on F1) are trying to work together for the benifit of making racing more exciting for tv.

I'm tired of battle.

The simple fact is this: Schumacher has been slower than Rosberg (in ultimate qually pace when you're actually allowed to go 10-10ths and Flat Out on that one special lap) by approximately 3 to 4 tenths about 75 to 80 percent of the time on average.

Well, in my opinion, Rosberg isn't even on the same level as Alonso, Vettel, Hamilton and a fully hooked-up Raikkonen ... and is, probably, on par with Webber, and perhaps aproaching Button.

Imagine what Alonso, Vettel and Hamilton would do to Schumacher in the same car.

They'd dismatle him.

Edited by RayInTorontoCanada, 09 May 2012 - 01:44.


#19230 exmayol

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Posted 09 May 2012 - 01:46

Yes but, my dear friend, you said that Micheal was paid only to get results for the brand [Post #19205].

I'm telling you the brand won't bother continuing in F1 - in the current poor economic climate - if (and i'm saying *if*) the tv rating don't stay up.

I'm also saying that Pirelli have been asked to spice things up by all the stakeholders (which includes Mercedes) so that ratings remain relatively good.

Now I ask you, do you think the Bahrain GP this year was 'entertaining'? Yes or No?

Do you think it was more entertaining that all the shit processions in Bahrain of yesteryears? Yes or No?

It's all relevent, you see. If you don't have healthy enough tv ratings at a time when Euroland is contracting and other major economies are slowing, then what's going to be in it for Mercedes?

I mean, am I out to lunch on this? There must be some sense in what i'm saying. No?

I mean, Bernie and all the team managers aren't complaining. They probably love it that the tv ratings aren't going down the shitter like the economy in Europe is and like many of the Grand Prix attendances.

Why do you think Spain is going down to 1 GP from two despite the fact that Alonso is paired up with Ferrari? Why?!?!

Why do you think Spa can hold 1 GP only every other year...and France can't hold a GP every year.

Look at the big picture man!

Michael can't be bothered to look at the big picture because he's got $1 Billion in the bank and is not going to be in F1 as long as the others.

Cheers.


Mate you should stop with the bigger picture as it is all relative. Dont drag euro crisis here please. Crisis is not the only reason for Belgium not holding a GP as often as they want. Holding GP is expensive. Why? Because Bernie happens to be one greedy sucker. He for one does not look at the bigger picture at all otherwise he would not be pushing the teams into the terms they don't particularly enjoy.

Regarding Bahrain, I'd take 2006 over this year any time! Why? Because both Alonso and Schumacher pushed hard. More overtakes does not warrant better racing. It does produce a better show at times but there is that fine line.



#19231 baddog

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Posted 09 May 2012 - 03:57

The simple fact is this: Schumacher has been slower than Rosberg (in ultimate qually pace when you're actually allowed to go 10-10ths and Flat Out on that one special lap) by approximately 3 to 4 tenths about 75 to 80 percent of the time on average.

Except this year Rosberg is SLOWER in qualifying in all but one race. I realise you are non too happy about that but its there.

#19232 gerry nassar

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Posted 09 May 2012 - 04:39

The problem for Schu is that sure the tyres are not ideal and they are not racing flat out (I agree with him) but its the same for the other drivers too. It seems that some of the others have been better at adapting than he has (especially considering the types of tyres he got used to over the years).

#19233 Pamphlet

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Posted 09 May 2012 - 04:56

Except this year Rosberg is SLOWER in qualifying in all but one race. I realise you are non too happy about that but its there.


Mind you, Rosberg has made a mistake in Q3 three times out of four this season.


And F1 stopped being just about qualifying a long time ago. It's the race that matters now (as it should, actually) and Schuey's outperformed Rosberg at least 2 to 1 so far.

#19234 SparkPlug

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Posted 09 May 2012 - 05:14

I'm tired of battle.


Then maybe you should just stop since most of your posts regarding the construction of the tyre compound dont make sense. All you're concentrating on is how great the 'show' is, which is not what is being discussed.

Well, in my opinion, Rosberg isn't even on the same level as Alonso, Vettel, Hamilton and a fully hooked-up Raikkonen ... and is, probably, on par with Webber, and perhaps aproaching Button.

An opinion thats obviously not based on any facts, just wishful thinking.


#19235 Raelene

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Posted 09 May 2012 - 06:04

The problem for Schu is that sure the tyres are not ideal and they are not racing flat out (I agree with him) but its the same for the other drivers too. It seems that some of the others have been better at adapting than he has (especially considering the types of tyres he got used to over the years).



which ones have been able to run 100% on them...because that is what he is complaining about - not being able to run as fast as they can

#19236 cloudman

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Posted 09 May 2012 - 06:15

I think most you have just read Autosport's article without any critical concern that they are taking Schumacher's comments out of context. It is worthwhile to view the original interview from CNN on Formula 1 Blog, which is available as a flash video. He is responding to question about how he view the close competition this year; as there have been 4 different winners over the first 4 races. After noting the new aerodynamic regulations as one factor, he also brings up the Pirelli tires, and makes the point that the rapid degradation of the Pirelli's, especially on the soft tire variant, forces drivers to nurse the tires to maintain their performance, which limits the degree they can push the car for performance.

Now this comment comes from a man, who during the last race came from the back of the grid to 10th place, and probably feels he could have done better, if he had tires, which would have allowed him to push the car further.

There is precedent in his performance, as I remember his last race for Ferrari in Japan in 2006, he came from the back of the pack after spinning, and ended up in 5th place with a master class in passing during the race. Of course, he was on Bridgestone tires, which were much more durable than the current Pirellis, whatever the variant available.

Just watch the marbles accumulate off line, and you can see how rapidly the tires degrade. It could almost be considered a safety issue, since if a driver goes offline, he is vulnerable to spinning off the track.

As for the Schumacher critics, I pay them about as much attention, as I would ignorant hecklers. Maybe if they had a clue or at least an open mind, they could recognize a worthwhile comment. Most of the other teams are reluctant to draw the wrath of Bernie or Charlie Whiting, or merely are displaying british prejudice.

#19237 IceSkyrim

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Posted 09 May 2012 - 06:22

http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/99437

"We have luckily got one win under our belt," he said reflecting on the campaign. "I was a bit unlucky in that race as we could have got a 1-2 without doubt, but it proves that we have made a huge step because you have to consider where we came from last year - it was not what we were really looking for.

Luck... Nico would strongly disagree w/ you :rolleyes:

Edited by IceSkyrim, 09 May 2012 - 06:23.


#19238 z2z

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Posted 09 May 2012 - 06:26

I think most you have just read Autosport's article without any critical concern that they are taking Schumacher's comments out of context. It is worthwhile to view the original interview from CNN on Formula 1 Blog, which is available as a flash video. He is responding to question about how he view the close competition this year; as there have been 4 different winners over the first 4 races. After noting the new aerodynamic regulations as one factor, he also brings up the Pirelli tires, and makes the point that the rapid degradation of the Pirelli's, especially on the soft tire variant, forces drivers to nurse the tires to maintain their performance, which limits the degree they can push the car for performance.

Now this comment comes from a man, who during the last race came from the back of the grid to 10th place, and probably feels he could have done better, if he had tires, which would have allowed him to push the car further.

There is precedent in his performance, as I remember his last race for Ferrari in Japan in 2006, he came from the back of the pack after spinning, and ended up in 5th place with a master class in passing during the race. Of course, he was on Bridgestone tires, which were much more durable than the current Pirellis, whatever the variant available.

Just watch the marbles accumulate off line, and you can see how rapidly the tires degrade. It could almost be considered a safety issue, since if a driver goes offline, he is vulnerable to spinning off the track.

As for the Schumacher critics, I pay them about as much attention, as I would ignorant hecklers. Maybe if they had a clue or at least an open mind, they could recognize a worthwhile comment. Most of the other teams are reluctant to draw the wrath of Bernie or Charlie Whiting, or merely are displaying british prejudice.

:up:

Btw that was Brazil 2006.

Edited by z2z, 09 May 2012 - 06:27.


#19239 Raelene

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Posted 09 May 2012 - 06:43

http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/99437

"We have luckily got one win under our belt," he said reflecting on the campaign. "I was a bit unlucky in that race as we could have got a 1-2 without doubt, but it proves that we have made a huge step because you have to consider where we came from last year - it was not what we were really looking for.

Luck... Nico would strongly disagree w/ you :rolleyes:



he didn't say the win was lucky.. Please read again - the bit you highlighted...

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#19240 ivand911

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Posted 09 May 2012 - 06:51

People are saying that some drivers adapt better to the tyres, which is not true. Their cars are better adapted(constructed) to the tyres, driver can't do anyting for tyres to work better. Their cars give them opportunity to race tyres in the optimum window. If this is not the case, driver is powerless to get tyres in the optimum window. As Pirelli say this is challenge for the drivers and engineers. Just that it is more challenge for the engineers. Some cars are much more suited to work with tyres, thus widening the tyre window. But, we can't say that this driver adapted better. Because it is car-tyres combination and his engineer(s) have bigger role than him in the end result. Drivers are just operators( or marionette). Or somebody here will explain me how driver can widen the tyre window? I don't care about engineers challenge, we don't have Championships for best tyre engineer.

There is precedent in his performance, as I remember his last race for Ferrari in Japan in 2006, he came from the back of the pack after spinning, and ended up in 5th place with a master class in passing during the race. Of course, he was on Bridgestone tires, which were much more durable than the current Pirellis, whatever the variant available.

Spa 2011 is even closer example(from last to 5th). Last year tyres were more durable, with bigger operating window. Maybe they also manage them, but they pushed to say 90-95%. This year they can push 85% maximum. Or it depend, are you in the window or not. If you are, you can push more.
Teams were happy with last year tyres. Why Pirelli decide to narrow the window and to soften the compounds?? They decided to be aggressive?? I doubt FIA or BE tell them that. So, it is their fault. F1 now is one big test of Pirelli tyres, all year long.

Edited by ivand911, 09 May 2012 - 07:03.


#19241 Raelene

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Posted 09 May 2012 - 07:36

i loved the days when a driver could do qualifying lap after qualifying lap..."hey Michael, we need you to make up .... seconds in 16 laps" - "ok".... anyone remember Hungary 1998

#19242 Pamphlet

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Posted 09 May 2012 - 07:43

i loved the days when a driver could do qualifying lap after qualifying lap..."hey Michael, we need you to make up .... seconds in 16 laps" - "ok".... anyone remember Hungary 1998


If anything, that showed not only how good Schumacher was with a tier 2 car (remember, Hakkinen's McLaren was designed by Adrian Newey and the difference was immense), but also how much of an absolute genius Brawn is.

#19243 Raelene

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Posted 09 May 2012 - 07:44

it showed the partnership is genius - Brawn's strategy more than likely wouldn't have worked with any other driver..

#19244 z2z

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Posted 09 May 2012 - 08:07

:)

#19245 Pamphlet

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Posted 09 May 2012 - 08:07

it showed the partnership is genius - Brawn's strategy more than likely wouldn't have worked with any other driver..


Didn't it work in 2009 as well? Considering the sad state that the BGP-001 was after the halfway point of the season, Button did an amazing job to stay in the title fight. And win. Against Vettel. Who was on fire despite the blatant team orders in Turkey '09 and who wasn't nearly as unlucky as in the following year.

Although MSC_V1 would've probably secured the title earlier. The fact that Rubens won two races to Jenson's 0 after the car stopped being the best one says a lot.

Edited by Pamphlet, 09 May 2012 - 08:08.


#19246 Raelene

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Posted 09 May 2012 - 08:14

I was more referring to the particular race - I couldn't see anyone else being able to do what he did (nowdays - possibly Alonso - although not on these tyres - which was the point of my post!!

Edited by Raelene, 09 May 2012 - 08:18.


#19247 sharo

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Posted 09 May 2012 - 08:25

The problem for Schu is that sure the tyres are not ideal and they are not racing flat out (I agree with him) but its the same for the other drivers too. It seems that some of the others have been better at adapting than he has (especially considering the types of tyres he got used to over the years).

Yes, they've adapted their mentality and are happy to take part in the staged show, as long as they get their salaries and exit out of the car without much sweating at the end of the race.
With regard to tyres, MS has adapted too and nurses them not worse than the rest. That's how he got from 22-nd to 10-th in Bahrain.

#19248 Sakkie

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Posted 09 May 2012 - 09:17

I´m in total agreement with MS regarding the tyres. F1 is being adapted for TV, and not for it´s original purpose, racing. I applaud him for having the courage to speak out against the establishment who run the show, because ultimately, that is where Pirelli get their instructions.
:up:

#19249 aditya-now

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Posted 09 May 2012 - 10:01

I´m in total agreement with MS regarding the tyres.


This whole thread starts to sound like a poll "Are you in agreement with MS on tires?" "Do you think Michael's view on tires is mistaken?"

Other aspects have been disregarded for pages now

a) why does Rosberg deliver and MSC not? Resultswise that has been the picture throughout 2010, 2011 and 2012. Yes, Michael has been unlucky, yes, Michael has been better at times. Yet over the whole period Nico has dominated Michael. And we still don't know how good Nico really is.

b) is there a hidden agenda behind Michael's attacks on Pirelli? Does he really think he can get preferential treatment by attacking them publicly? Does it really have to do with Merc not yet signing the Concorde agreement (if so, then what do the tires have to do with it?)?? Did Paul Hembery not please MSC as he should have pleased him in Michael's eyes, and so he will continue to receive retaliation from the Schu?

Whatever the case being, if Michael were to perform better his fans would not have to excuse him consistently with all kinds of arguments but they would simply enjoy Michael's driving and celebrate his triumphs. Because that is what MSC came back for from retirement.

#19250 Ferrari_F1_fan_2001

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Posted 09 May 2012 - 10:08

Schumacher has done well this year, bad fortune excepting. That said, I still think Nico would have been marginally ahead, even if Schumacher had achieved maximum results.

His bad luck streak is quite poor now (4 out of 4 races in 2012) and that is causing him to lash out. I personally don't think he will sign for 2013 now and Mercedes may possibly pull out too