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#19201 George Costanza

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Posted 08 May 2012 - 22:26

Make the best with what you have Michael , you did it for years with Ferrari i,m sure you can do it again.



The issue in the 1990s was the car mainly. Goodyear produced superior tires.

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#19202 sharo

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Posted 08 May 2012 - 23:07

What if Michael is (again) playing a team game for Mercedes in their negotiations for the new Concorde?

#19203 Goron3

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Posted 08 May 2012 - 23:36

I'm not angry.

I'm making observations.

:)

Schuey doesn't have to opt for the strategy that entails "nursing tyres while going relatively fast";

He can go "flat out using all the tyres at his disposal"


He can make one extra stop than everyone else and go balls out on them more than the other drivers on fewer stops...OR...he can use up all the harder tyres and go balls out on them while others are nursing Options...OR...he can leave Formula One and let di Resta or Hulkenberg or another very good driver who already has wins under his belt (like Hamilton (as a remote possibility) or Raikkonen (as another possibility) have a shot at his seat.

It's a free world.


Every strategy requires nursing the tyres while going relatively fast. There are only 2 sets of tyres available for each race and they are all manufactured by Pirelli, think that's a small mistake on your past? You can't go 'flat out' as after lap 1 the tyres will have gone and you'll be inherently slower on the next laps more so than you would be than if you drove slowly on the first lap to match your delta.

Also, that would entail a 6-7 pitstops minimum per race and that's not feasible for 2 reasons. Firstly, the time lost in pit stops would be massive. Secondly, they don't have that many sets of tyres. Finally, only the first lap would be faster than others driving slowly to match their deltas; the tyres will be gone by then.

If you want help with strategies, you should check out James Allen's strategy calculator; it's free and easy to use and pretty accurate. Hope that helps dude :)

#19204 RayInTorontoCanada

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Posted 08 May 2012 - 23:48

Every strategy requires nursing the tyres while going relatively fast. There are only 2 sets of tyres available for each race and they are all manufactured by Pirelli, think that's a small mistake on your past? You can't go 'flat out' as after lap 1 the tyres will have gone and you'll be inherently slower on the next laps more so than you would be than if you drove slowly on the first lap to match your delta.

Also, that would entail a 6-7 pitstops minimum per race and that's not feasible for 2 reasons. Firstly, the time lost in pit stops would be massive. Secondly, they don't have that many sets of tyres. Finally, only the first lap would be faster than others driving slowly to match their deltas; the tyres will be gone by then.

If you want help with strategies, you should check out James Allen's strategy calculator; it's free and easy to use and pretty accurate. Hope that helps dude :)


Or he can retire from Formula One and let someone younger have a crack in that car.

Like I said, it's a free world.

I mean, there's always going to be just one, singular perfectly optimal tyre and tyre stop strategy for that iteration of car on that track on that day in history. Michael needs to get on with finding it in Europe, Canada and the like. No point in trying to continually diss the supplier that's been asked by all the stakeholders to make sure the tv ratings remain robust given the shitshow in the European and other global economies.

May 8th, 1982 - I still remember vividly the shock and agony!

RIP Gilles!


I remember it too!

RIP Gilles

Edited by RayInTorontoCanada, 08 May 2012 - 23:55.


#19205 exmayol

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Posted 09 May 2012 - 00:16

Sorry bud, they are paid to entertain us and keep us watching so we, en masse, can buy whatever shit they're selling in the aggregate.

Bernie, CCV Partners and every stakeholder in F1 wants tv numbers up, not down.

Euroland is absolutely going down the shitter economically (left with probably 6 or 7 races a year in due time) and China is slowing in terms of economic growth. Mercedes rumoured to be pulling out of F1 a few weeks ago (I don't believe it...but it WAS rumoured). The Global economy isn't as robust as it used to be in the mid 00s and you don't see Audi or Ford or whoever dying to enter F1, do you?

All these firms have left is tv numbers and if you think "entertainment" doesn't matter, then you're economically naive.

As per "delivering results" (your words, not mine), well, Michael hasn't delivered any and is still getting paid 30 Million a season.

He's there to entertain a global audience and, in doing so, promote Mercedes brand as a competitive entrant in Formula One. Mercedes is paying him 30 Million a year to drive the bloody car effectively and he's been paid 90 Million over three years to deliver, to date, zero f***ing podiums.

The only thing that will keep tv numbers up is entertaining races, not the processional pieces of shit we used to get at Bahrain year after year (until this year).

Cheers, mate. :wave:


What does eurozone crisis has to do with it? Do you bring it up along with MW to fill space in your post? Euro crisis affects a lot of things. So what? Not the first time, not the last.

Why do you worry so much how much MS is being paid? Something tells me Ross & Co know better if MS salary is well justified or not. Alonso has zero f***ing WDC wins with Ferrari, so what? Is he being overpaid? You can only do as good as your team / car permits. MS relative performance to NR has been discussed plenty so no point reminding that NR got few podiums and, dang, a win.

I doubt any driver has any clause in their contract about "go out and entertain as we have to sell our shit". Corporate ethics - yes. PR BS - yes. Entertainment, except PR events, no way. Teams are there to compete, not entertain. If good racing is in place that happens to be entertaining to watch and everyone is happy.

If you feel like teams must entertain you but dont - there is nascar, cage fights and other entertainment awaiting for you. Cheers!



#19206 RayInTorontoCanada

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Posted 09 May 2012 - 00:56

What does eurozone crisis has to do with it? Do you bring it up along with MW to fill space in your post? Euro crisis affects a lot of things. So what? Not the first time, not the last.

Why do you worry so much how much MS is being paid? Something tells me Ross & Co know better if MS salary is well justified or not. Alonso has zero f***ing WDC wins with Ferrari, so what? Is he being overpaid? You can only do as good as your team / car permits. MS relative performance to NR has been discussed plenty so no point reminding that NR got few podiums and, dang, a win.

I doubt any driver has any clause in their contract about "go out and entertain as we have to sell our shit". Corporate ethics - yes. PR BS - yes. Entertainment, except PR events, no way. Teams are there to compete, not entertain. If good racing is in place that happens to be entertaining to watch and everyone is happy.

If you feel like teams must entertain you but dont - there is nascar, cage fights and other entertainment awaiting for you. Cheers!


Yes but, my dear friend, you said that Micheal was paid only to get results for the brand [Post #19205].

I'm telling you the brand won't bother continuing in F1 - in the current poor economic climate - if (and i'm saying *if*) the tv rating don't stay up.

I'm also saying that Pirelli have been asked to spice things up by all the stakeholders (which includes Mercedes) so that ratings remain relatively good.

Now I ask you, do you think the Bahrain GP this year was 'entertaining'? Yes or No?

Do you think it was more entertaining that all the shit processions in Bahrain of yesteryears? Yes or No?

It's all relevent, you see. If you don't have healthy enough tv ratings at a time when Euroland is contracting and other major economies are slowing, then what's going to be in it for Mercedes?

I mean, am I out to lunch on this? There must be some sense in what i'm saying. No?

I mean, Bernie and all the team managers aren't complaining. They probably love it that the tv ratings aren't going down the shitter like the economy in Europe is and like many of the Grand Prix attendances.

Why do you think Spain is going down to 1 GP from two despite the fact that Alonso is paired up with Ferrari? Why?!?!

Why do you think Spa can hold 1 GP only every other year...and France can't hold a GP every year.

Look at the big picture man!

Michael can't be bothered to look at the big picture because he's got $1 Billion in the bank and is not going to be in F1 as long as the others.

Cheers.

Edited by RayInTorontoCanada, 09 May 2012 - 01:03.


#19207 RacingReporter

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Posted 09 May 2012 - 01:01

Sorry bud, they are paid to entertain us and keep us watching so we, en masse, can buy whatever shit they're selling in the aggregate.

Bernie, CCV Partners and every stakeholder in F1 wants tv numbers up, not down.

Euroland is absolutely going down the shitter economically (left with probably 6 or 7 races a year in due time) and China is slowing in terms of economic growth. Mercedes rumoured to be pulling out of F1 a few weeks ago (I don't believe it...but it WAS rumoured). The Global economy isn't as robust as it used to be in the mid 00s and you don't see Audi or Ford or whoever dying to enter F1, do you?

All these firms have left is tv numbers and if you think "entertainment" doesn't matter, then you're economically naive.

As per "delivering results" (your words, not mine), well, Michael hasn't delivered any and is still getting paid 30 Million a season.

He's there to entertain a global audience and, in doing so, promote Mercedes brand as a competitive entrant in Formula One. Mercedes is paying him 30 Million a year to drive the bloody car effectively and he's been paid 90 Million over three years to deliver, to date, zero f***ing podiums.

The only thing that will keep tv numbers up is entertaining races, not the processional pieces of shit we used to get at Bahrain year after year (until this year).

Cheers, mate. :wave:

EU zone problems have nothing to do with it, you're grasping at straws.

F1 is (was) state of the art technology and provides spectacle with its fast cars. Bernie & Co tried to up the pace by putting pressure on the FIA and OWG, who ultimately came up with f.e. DRS.

Get your facts straight by the way, Schumacher earns 8 million a year. Contractual clause on Rosbergs side that his teammate can't earn more than him. So no, not 30. And concerning podiums, 4-0 for Rosberg. Schumacher couldn't cope with it in 2010, that's 3. 2011: best team result by Schumacher. And the final one goes to China 2012, we all know what would have happened there if luck was on his side for once (oh, btw, Rosberg earned it).

If you like action, go watch Rambo 1-3 and Terminator 1 & 2. This is the highest tech sport with something to love for everyone (and hate, unfortunately). Not every race is a gem but there is plenty of spectacle to watch anyway. If you want overtakes which can be pulled off by that Call of Duty n00b-kid across the hallway, be my guest but that's not what F1 is about.

Edit:

Only TV-ratings? You'd better correct that one. Airtime is important, next to prize money, trophees and brand recognition.

Edited by RacingReporter, 09 May 2012 - 01:05.


#19208 RayInTorontoCanada

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Posted 09 May 2012 - 01:12

EU zone problems have nothing to do with it, you're grasping at straws.

F1 is (was) state of the art technology and provides spectacle with its fast cars. Bernie & Co tried to up the pace by putting pressure on the FIA and OWG, who ultimately came up with f.e. DRS.

Get your facts straight by the way, Schumacher earns 8 million a year. Contractual clause on Rosbergs side that his teammate can't earn more than him. So no, not 30. And concerning podiums, 4-0 for Rosberg. Schumacher couldn't cope with it in 2010, that's 3. And the final one goes to China 2012 and we all know what happened there.

If you like action, go watch Rambo 1-3 and Terminator 1 & 2. This is the highest tech sport with something to love for everyone (and hate, unfortunately). Not every race is a gem but there is plenty of spectacle to watch anyway. If you want overtakes which can be pulled off by that Call of Duty n00b-kid across the hallway, be my guest but that's not what F1 is about.

Edit:

Only TV-ratings? You'd better correct that one. Airtime is important, next to prize money, trophees and brand recognition.


You obvioulsy Wiki'd Schumi's salary but have no clue of anything else. You honestly think Schumi's paid only 8 Mil a year - the same amount as a guy who had no GP wins to his name when the contracts were signed? :drunk:

Don't be a naive moron, my friend!

And What the f**k does Rambo have anything to do with it? :lol:

I've been watching Grand Prix racing since childhood...since 1979 and have forgotten more stuff than you can possibly Wiki. You have no clue who I am and what I do for a living. So, I'll be civilized and say that your post is a bit rubbish in some places in that it's quite obviously intended to get a rise out of me. :yawnface:

I'm sure you can do better than that. So, please be my guest and try harder!

:wave:

EDIT

Who said I wanted over-takes? In Bahrain, Vettel held off Raikkonen and there was no over-take for the win. That's fine by me. No one's asking for shit piles of overtakes.

I'm merely saying that the main stakeholders asked the tyre supplier to help make the show more entertaining. That's all.

Edited by RayInTorontoCanada, 09 May 2012 - 01:20.


#19209 iakhtar

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Posted 09 May 2012 - 01:19

Some people are so focused on driver allegiances that they can't even see the problem. Hello! the tyres are shit, wake up and stop defending 'the show'

And Ray, singular perfectly optimal strategies would still exist even if the tyres were made of cheese, there would be no real racing and yet somebody somewhere would be fooled into defending them. Why can't we have better tyres? and why do you want MS to retire for speaking out? He is just saying what many of us are thinking, this isn't about being a fan of his or not.

Tyre conservation needs to be an option not a complete necessity, it has gone too far, I don't want to watch a driver not take a chance because his tyres would fall off a cliff or not being able to see an aggressive drive through the pack, how can anyone defend these rubbish tyres?

#19210 RayInTorontoCanada

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Posted 09 May 2012 - 01:29

Some people are so focused on driver allegiances that they can't even see the problem. Hello! the tyres are shit, wake up and stop defending 'the show'

And Ray, singular perfectly optimal strategies would still exist even if the tyres were made of cheese, there would be no real racing and yet somebody somewhere would be fooled into defending them. Why can't we have better tyres? and why do you want MS to retire for speaking out? He is just saying what many of us are thinking, this isn't about being a fan of his or not.

Tyre conservation needs to be an option not a complete necessity, it has gone too far, I don't want to watch a driver not take a chance because his tyres would fall off a cliff or not being able to see an aggressive drive through the pack, how can anyone defend these rubbish tyres?


I'm not defending these specific tyres per se'.

I do think they're better than what we used to have in years when, if it didn't rain on a Tilke Track, you'd get boring, mindless and horrible, horrible "processions". They were worse than Funeral Processions and, in my opinion, the worst F1 we ever saw.

Also, i'm not saying Michael should retire for speaking out.

I'm saying he's dissing a firm that was asked to come in - at a time when f***ing Bridgestone decided to bail on F1 - and help make F1 more entertaining. That was Pirelli's mandate. Pirelli are fullfilling their mandate as asked of them by the stakeholders.

I'm also saying Michael's free to retire if he doesn't like it.

It's a shame that this ended up in the Schuey thread because all I've seen is his supporters come in and bash me for basically telling everyone that F1's main stakeholders and Pirelli (the company that came in because Bridgstone decided to pull the plug not long after the other Jap firms - Honda and Toyota - pulled the plug on F1) are trying to work together for the benifit of making racing more exciting for tv.

I'm tired of battle.

The simple fact is this: Schumacher has been slower than Rosberg (in ultimate qually pace when you're actually allowed to go 10-10ths and Flat Out on that one special lap) by approximately 3 to 4 tenths about 75 to 80 percent of the time on average.

Well, in my opinion, Rosberg isn't even on the same level as Alonso, Vettel, Hamilton and a fully hooked-up Raikkonen ... and is, probably, on par with Webber, and perhaps aproaching Button.

Imagine what Alonso, Vettel and Hamilton would do to Schumacher in the same car.

They'd dismatle him.

Edited by RayInTorontoCanada, 09 May 2012 - 01:44.


#19211 exmayol

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Posted 09 May 2012 - 01:46

Yes but, my dear friend, you said that Micheal was paid only to get results for the brand [Post #19205].

I'm telling you the brand won't bother continuing in F1 - in the current poor economic climate - if (and i'm saying *if*) the tv rating don't stay up.

I'm also saying that Pirelli have been asked to spice things up by all the stakeholders (which includes Mercedes) so that ratings remain relatively good.

Now I ask you, do you think the Bahrain GP this year was 'entertaining'? Yes or No?

Do you think it was more entertaining that all the shit processions in Bahrain of yesteryears? Yes or No?

It's all relevent, you see. If you don't have healthy enough tv ratings at a time when Euroland is contracting and other major economies are slowing, then what's going to be in it for Mercedes?

I mean, am I out to lunch on this? There must be some sense in what i'm saying. No?

I mean, Bernie and all the team managers aren't complaining. They probably love it that the tv ratings aren't going down the shitter like the economy in Europe is and like many of the Grand Prix attendances.

Why do you think Spain is going down to 1 GP from two despite the fact that Alonso is paired up with Ferrari? Why?!?!

Why do you think Spa can hold 1 GP only every other year...and France can't hold a GP every year.

Look at the big picture man!

Michael can't be bothered to look at the big picture because he's got $1 Billion in the bank and is not going to be in F1 as long as the others.

Cheers.


Mate you should stop with the bigger picture as it is all relative. Dont drag euro crisis here please. Crisis is not the only reason for Belgium not holding a GP as often as they want. Holding GP is expensive. Why? Because Bernie happens to be one greedy sucker. He for one does not look at the bigger picture at all otherwise he would not be pushing the teams into the terms they don't particularly enjoy.

Regarding Bahrain, I'd take 2006 over this year any time! Why? Because both Alonso and Schumacher pushed hard. More overtakes does not warrant better racing. It does produce a better show at times but there is that fine line.



#19212 baddog

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Posted 09 May 2012 - 03:57

The simple fact is this: Schumacher has been slower than Rosberg (in ultimate qually pace when you're actually allowed to go 10-10ths and Flat Out on that one special lap) by approximately 3 to 4 tenths about 75 to 80 percent of the time on average.

Except this year Rosberg is SLOWER in qualifying in all but one race. I realise you are non too happy about that but its there.

#19213 gerry nassar

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Posted 09 May 2012 - 04:39

The problem for Schu is that sure the tyres are not ideal and they are not racing flat out (I agree with him) but its the same for the other drivers too. It seems that some of the others have been better at adapting than he has (especially considering the types of tyres he got used to over the years).

#19214 Pamphlet

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Posted 09 May 2012 - 04:56

Except this year Rosberg is SLOWER in qualifying in all but one race. I realise you are non too happy about that but its there.


Mind you, Rosberg has made a mistake in Q3 three times out of four this season.


And F1 stopped being just about qualifying a long time ago. It's the race that matters now (as it should, actually) and Schuey's outperformed Rosberg at least 2 to 1 so far.

#19215 SparkPlug

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Posted 09 May 2012 - 05:14

I'm tired of battle.


Then maybe you should just stop since most of your posts regarding the construction of the tyre compound dont make sense. All you're concentrating on is how great the 'show' is, which is not what is being discussed.

Well, in my opinion, Rosberg isn't even on the same level as Alonso, Vettel, Hamilton and a fully hooked-up Raikkonen ... and is, probably, on par with Webber, and perhaps aproaching Button.

An opinion thats obviously not based on any facts, just wishful thinking.


#19216 Raelene

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Posted 09 May 2012 - 06:04

The problem for Schu is that sure the tyres are not ideal and they are not racing flat out (I agree with him) but its the same for the other drivers too. It seems that some of the others have been better at adapting than he has (especially considering the types of tyres he got used to over the years).



which ones have been able to run 100% on them...because that is what he is complaining about - not being able to run as fast as they can

#19217 cloudman

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Posted 09 May 2012 - 06:15

I think most you have just read Autosport's article without any critical concern that they are taking Schumacher's comments out of context. It is worthwhile to view the original interview from CNN on Formula 1 Blog, which is available as a flash video. He is responding to question about how he view the close competition this year; as there have been 4 different winners over the first 4 races. After noting the new aerodynamic regulations as one factor, he also brings up the Pirelli tires, and makes the point that the rapid degradation of the Pirelli's, especially on the soft tire variant, forces drivers to nurse the tires to maintain their performance, which limits the degree they can push the car for performance.

Now this comment comes from a man, who during the last race came from the back of the grid to 10th place, and probably feels he could have done better, if he had tires, which would have allowed him to push the car further.

There is precedent in his performance, as I remember his last race for Ferrari in Japan in 2006, he came from the back of the pack after spinning, and ended up in 5th place with a master class in passing during the race. Of course, he was on Bridgestone tires, which were much more durable than the current Pirellis, whatever the variant available.

Just watch the marbles accumulate off line, and you can see how rapidly the tires degrade. It could almost be considered a safety issue, since if a driver goes offline, he is vulnerable to spinning off the track.

As for the Schumacher critics, I pay them about as much attention, as I would ignorant hecklers. Maybe if they had a clue or at least an open mind, they could recognize a worthwhile comment. Most of the other teams are reluctant to draw the wrath of Bernie or Charlie Whiting, or merely are displaying british prejudice.

#19218 IceSkyrim

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Posted 09 May 2012 - 06:22

http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/99437

"We have luckily got one win under our belt," he said reflecting on the campaign. "I was a bit unlucky in that race as we could have got a 1-2 without doubt, but it proves that we have made a huge step because you have to consider where we came from last year - it was not what we were really looking for.

Luck... Nico would strongly disagree w/ you :rolleyes:

Edited by IceSkyrim, 09 May 2012 - 06:23.


#19219 z2z

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Posted 09 May 2012 - 06:26

I think most you have just read Autosport's article without any critical concern that they are taking Schumacher's comments out of context. It is worthwhile to view the original interview from CNN on Formula 1 Blog, which is available as a flash video. He is responding to question about how he view the close competition this year; as there have been 4 different winners over the first 4 races. After noting the new aerodynamic regulations as one factor, he also brings up the Pirelli tires, and makes the point that the rapid degradation of the Pirelli's, especially on the soft tire variant, forces drivers to nurse the tires to maintain their performance, which limits the degree they can push the car for performance.

Now this comment comes from a man, who during the last race came from the back of the grid to 10th place, and probably feels he could have done better, if he had tires, which would have allowed him to push the car further.

There is precedent in his performance, as I remember his last race for Ferrari in Japan in 2006, he came from the back of the pack after spinning, and ended up in 5th place with a master class in passing during the race. Of course, he was on Bridgestone tires, which were much more durable than the current Pirellis, whatever the variant available.

Just watch the marbles accumulate off line, and you can see how rapidly the tires degrade. It could almost be considered a safety issue, since if a driver goes offline, he is vulnerable to spinning off the track.

As for the Schumacher critics, I pay them about as much attention, as I would ignorant hecklers. Maybe if they had a clue or at least an open mind, they could recognize a worthwhile comment. Most of the other teams are reluctant to draw the wrath of Bernie or Charlie Whiting, or merely are displaying british prejudice.

:up:

Btw that was Brazil 2006.

Edited by z2z, 09 May 2012 - 06:27.


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#19220 Raelene

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Posted 09 May 2012 - 06:43

http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/99437

"We have luckily got one win under our belt," he said reflecting on the campaign. "I was a bit unlucky in that race as we could have got a 1-2 without doubt, but it proves that we have made a huge step because you have to consider where we came from last year - it was not what we were really looking for.

Luck... Nico would strongly disagree w/ you :rolleyes:



he didn't say the win was lucky.. Please read again - the bit you highlighted...

#19221 ivand911

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Posted 09 May 2012 - 06:51

People are saying that some drivers adapt better to the tyres, which is not true. Their cars are better adapted(constructed) to the tyres, driver can't do anyting for tyres to work better. Their cars give them opportunity to race tyres in the optimum window. If this is not the case, driver is powerless to get tyres in the optimum window. As Pirelli say this is challenge for the drivers and engineers. Just that it is more challenge for the engineers. Some cars are much more suited to work with tyres, thus widening the tyre window. But, we can't say that this driver adapted better. Because it is car-tyres combination and his engineer(s) have bigger role than him in the end result. Drivers are just operators( or marionette). Or somebody here will explain me how driver can widen the tyre window? I don't care about engineers challenge, we don't have Championships for best tyre engineer.

There is precedent in his performance, as I remember his last race for Ferrari in Japan in 2006, he came from the back of the pack after spinning, and ended up in 5th place with a master class in passing during the race. Of course, he was on Bridgestone tires, which were much more durable than the current Pirellis, whatever the variant available.

Spa 2011 is even closer example(from last to 5th). Last year tyres were more durable, with bigger operating window. Maybe they also manage them, but they pushed to say 90-95%. This year they can push 85% maximum. Or it depend, are you in the window or not. If you are, you can push more.
Teams were happy with last year tyres. Why Pirelli decide to narrow the window and to soften the compounds?? They decided to be aggressive?? I doubt FIA or BE tell them that. So, it is their fault. F1 now is one big test of Pirelli tyres, all year long.

Edited by ivand911, 09 May 2012 - 07:03.


#19222 Raelene

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Posted 09 May 2012 - 07:36

i loved the days when a driver could do qualifying lap after qualifying lap..."hey Michael, we need you to make up .... seconds in 16 laps" - "ok".... anyone remember Hungary 1998

#19223 Pamphlet

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Posted 09 May 2012 - 07:43

i loved the days when a driver could do qualifying lap after qualifying lap..."hey Michael, we need you to make up .... seconds in 16 laps" - "ok".... anyone remember Hungary 1998


If anything, that showed not only how good Schumacher was with a tier 2 car (remember, Hakkinen's McLaren was designed by Adrian Newey and the difference was immense), but also how much of an absolute genius Brawn is.

#19224 Raelene

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Posted 09 May 2012 - 07:44

it showed the partnership is genius - Brawn's strategy more than likely wouldn't have worked with any other driver..

#19225 z2z

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Posted 09 May 2012 - 08:07

:)

#19226 Pamphlet

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Posted 09 May 2012 - 08:07

it showed the partnership is genius - Brawn's strategy more than likely wouldn't have worked with any other driver..


Didn't it work in 2009 as well? Considering the sad state that the BGP-001 was after the halfway point of the season, Button did an amazing job to stay in the title fight. And win. Against Vettel. Who was on fire despite the blatant team orders in Turkey '09 and who wasn't nearly as unlucky as in the following year.

Although MSC_V1 would've probably secured the title earlier. The fact that Rubens won two races to Jenson's 0 after the car stopped being the best one says a lot.

Edited by Pamphlet, 09 May 2012 - 08:08.


#19227 Raelene

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Posted 09 May 2012 - 08:14

I was more referring to the particular race - I couldn't see anyone else being able to do what he did (nowdays - possibly Alonso - although not on these tyres - which was the point of my post!!

Edited by Raelene, 09 May 2012 - 08:18.


#19228 sharo

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Posted 09 May 2012 - 08:25

The problem for Schu is that sure the tyres are not ideal and they are not racing flat out (I agree with him) but its the same for the other drivers too. It seems that some of the others have been better at adapting than he has (especially considering the types of tyres he got used to over the years).

Yes, they've adapted their mentality and are happy to take part in the staged show, as long as they get their salaries and exit out of the car without much sweating at the end of the race.
With regard to tyres, MS has adapted too and nurses them not worse than the rest. That's how he got from 22-nd to 10-th in Bahrain.

#19229 Sakkie

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Posted 09 May 2012 - 09:17

I´m in total agreement with MS regarding the tyres. F1 is being adapted for TV, and not for it´s original purpose, racing. I applaud him for having the courage to speak out against the establishment who run the show, because ultimately, that is where Pirelli get their instructions.
:up:

#19230 aditya-now

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Posted 09 May 2012 - 10:01

I´m in total agreement with MS regarding the tyres.


This whole thread starts to sound like a poll "Are you in agreement with MS on tires?" "Do you think Michael's view on tires is mistaken?"

Other aspects have been disregarded for pages now

a) why does Rosberg deliver and MSC not? Resultswise that has been the picture throughout 2010, 2011 and 2012. Yes, Michael has been unlucky, yes, Michael has been better at times. Yet over the whole period Nico has dominated Michael. And we still don't know how good Nico really is.

b) is there a hidden agenda behind Michael's attacks on Pirelli? Does he really think he can get preferential treatment by attacking them publicly? Does it really have to do with Merc not yet signing the Concorde agreement (if so, then what do the tires have to do with it?)?? Did Paul Hembery not please MSC as he should have pleased him in Michael's eyes, and so he will continue to receive retaliation from the Schu?

Whatever the case being, if Michael were to perform better his fans would not have to excuse him consistently with all kinds of arguments but they would simply enjoy Michael's driving and celebrate his triumphs. Because that is what MSC came back for from retirement.

#19231 Ferrari_F1_fan_2001

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Posted 09 May 2012 - 10:08

Schumacher has done well this year, bad fortune excepting. That said, I still think Nico would have been marginally ahead, even if Schumacher had achieved maximum results.

His bad luck streak is quite poor now (4 out of 4 races in 2012) and that is causing him to lash out. I personally don't think he will sign for 2013 now and Mercedes may possibly pull out too

#19232 Pamphlet

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Posted 09 May 2012 - 10:12

a) why does Rosberg deliver and MSC not?


2010 - no argument, MSC was genuinely horrible and Rosberg at his strongest.

2011 - MSC was the stronger of the two, but a near-Vettel2010-esque season caused him to miss out on big points. Canada and Spa come to mind, where he had some stupendously good performances yet was beaten by things that were out of his control (starting from the back of the grid in Spa (but nevertheless beating Rosberg) and being DRS'd by Button and Webber in Canada because DRS became available).

2012 - MSC has been the strongest of the two so far.
Qualifying - Rosberg may be a good qualifier, but 3 times out of 4 he has shown severe weakness and a lack of concentration in Q3. Schuey takes this one.
Race - In Australia Schuey was running third and easily matching Vettel's pace when his gearbox gave out.
In Malaysia he annihilated Rosberg despite his incident with Grosjean early on.
China is an exception, but then that was an exception in every right as not only did Schumacher get screwed over by his pit crew, but so did Button, leaving Rosberg (who had reached the cliff at the end of the race) to trundle his way to a win. Also, Massa.
In Bahrain Schuey had equal pace despite having to make his way through the back of the grid.
That's 2-1 to Schuey at the very least. There's no denying Rosberg's prowess in China, but that was probably the luckiest a driver will get this year as the conditions allowed Mercedes to sidestep the tyre shenanigans and Button was screwed out of a win. (Yes, win. He had the pace and Rosberg hit the cliff.)

Regardless, I highly doubt that Mercedes will return to the form they showed in China, and my hunch is that Schuey himself knows that. Barring the W-Duct, they have nothing. Worse yet, they still have the same tyre issues from last year. Of course he's going to be pissed off at missing out on an easy 2nd or 3rd place, and especially seeing his teammate get far, far luckier and even win.

1 unlucky weekend is fine. Two or three, maybe. 1.25 seasons? Not a chance.


Yes, Michael has been unlucky, yes, Michael has been better at times. Yet over the whole period Nico has dominated Michael. And we still don't know how good Nico really is.


Again, Vettel vs Webber 2010. Luck can easily manipulate the "apparent" skill difference between two drivers.

b) is there a hidden agenda behind Michael's attacks on Pirelli? Does he really think he can get preferential treatment by attacking them publicly? Does it really have to do with Merc not yet signing the Concorde agreement (if so, then what do the tires have to do with it?)?? Did Paul Hembery not please MSC as he should have pleased him in Michael's eyes, and so he will continue to receive retaliation from the Schu?

Whatever the case being, if Michael were to perform better his fans would not have to excuse him consistently with all kinds of arguments but they would simply enjoy Michael's driving and celebrate his triumphs. Because that is what MSC came back for from retirement.


It's funny that you mention the fans when you yourself have absolutely no arguments, barring 2010, to show that Rosberg has been better in any way of the word. As for the tyres, we still know from Brundle that he's not alone on this one. And it's not even his OR Pirelli's fault either - the fans were stupid enough to ask for more entertainment in the fan forum. Pirelli did their job. There's a reason why Vettel and Webber are sidestepping the matter and mentioning the fans' enjoyment - the viewers genuinely like the racing in 2012 compared to the racing in the previous years. Doesn't mean the drivers do.

Edited by Pamphlet, 09 May 2012 - 10:15.


#19233 Raelene

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Posted 09 May 2012 - 10:17

Whatever the case being, if Michael were to perform better his fans would not have to excuse him consistently with all kinds of arguments but they would simply enjoy Michael's driving and celebrate his triumphs. Because that is what MSC came back for from retirement.


How could Michael have performed better this year?

Please answer and tell me - what he could have done in the races better this year.



#19234 ivand911

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Posted 09 May 2012 - 10:20

I just hope MS didn't win this race. Will be a big facepalm. :lol: And the temperatures will be right for W03.

#19235 Sakae

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Posted 09 May 2012 - 10:20

...the viewers genuinely like the racing in 2012 compared to the racing in the previous years...

This viewer genuinely doesn't.


#19236 Pamphlet

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Posted 09 May 2012 - 10:24

This viewer genuinely doesn't.


Most do. That's the thing.

#19237 aditya-now

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Posted 09 May 2012 - 10:33

Most do. That's the thing.


53,50% do. Pirelli 2012 or Bridgestone 2010


#19238 Pamphlet

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Posted 09 May 2012 - 10:34

53,50% do. Pirelli 2012 or Bridgestone 2010


Autosport. The only place where people forget about issues like the 2010 Bridgestones so easily and so quickly. F1Fanatic, a more credible source (incredibly enough), paints a different light - the majority of people like the tyres or would prefer them to be only slightly more conservative.

Edited by Pamphlet, 09 May 2012 - 10:35.


#19239 ivand911

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Posted 09 May 2012 - 10:44

Autosport. The only place where people forget about issues like the 2010 Bridgestones so easily and so quickly. F1Fanatic, a more credible source (incredibly enough), paints a different light - the majority of people like the tyres or would prefer them to be only slightly more conservative.

I don't think so. I think the guy who write this blog can be easily "persuaded" to change his view on one or another matter. Companies can easily do this. And he is forming "opinions" latter.

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#19240 Pamphlet

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Posted 09 May 2012 - 10:47

I don't think so. I think the guy who write this blog can be easily "persuaded" to change his view on one or another matter. Companies can easily do this. And he is forming "opinions" latter.


Hence why I said "incredibly enough". The part about the tyres was up to that site's community to decide, though.

#19241 ali_M

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Posted 09 May 2012 - 11:11

It's funny that you mention the fans when you yourself have absolutely no arguments, barring 2010, to show that Rosberg has been better in any way of the word. As for the tyres, we still know from Brundle that he's not alone on this one. And it's not even his OR Pirelli's fault either - the fans were stupid enough to ask for more entertainment in the fan forum. Pirelli did their job. There's a reason why Vettel and Webber are sidestepping the matter and mentioning the fans' enjoyment - the viewers genuinely like the racing in 2012 compared to the racing in the previous years. Doesn't mean the drivers do.


This is interesting since the racing was never initially about fans, though many came to watch. The sports popularity grew when it was about pure racing and not doing stuff to 'beef up the show'. Now the sport has been commercialised into a money making machine that the teams don't get much of. Money making that is supported by the fans so the fans must be pleased. Sad situation really when one considers the history of the sport. I doubt it would have become this popular if its current philosophy was the status quo all along its history. :well:

#19242 RacingReporter

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Posted 09 May 2012 - 11:55

You obvioulsy Wiki'd Schumi's salary but have no clue of anything else. You honestly think Schumi's paid only 8 Mil a year - the same amount as a guy who had no GP wins to his name when the contracts were signed? :drunk:

Don't be a naive moron, my friend!

And What the f**k does Rambo have anything to do with it? :lol:

I've been watching Grand Prix racing since childhood...since 1979 and have forgotten more stuff than you can possibly Wiki. You have no clue who I am and what I do for a living. So, I'll be civilized and say that your post is a bit rubbish in some places in that it's quite obviously intended to get a rise out of me. :yawnface:

I'm sure you can do better than that. So, please be my guest and try harder!

:wave:

EDIT

Who said I wanted over-takes? In Bahrain, Vettel held off Raikkonen and there was no over-take for the win. That's fine by me. No one's asking for shit piles of overtakes.

I'm merely saying that the main stakeholders asked the tyre supplier to help make the show more entertaining. That's all.

Nope, no wiki, I'm just following the news closely ;) Oh btw, you forgot to look at what I wrote. I said it was just Merc supplying Schumacher with 8 mil a year, wasn't saying anything about personal sponsor deals which will add to the margin considerably.

You have been following F1 since 1979? Good for you! The way you are acting over here is like a sucker for on-track action on the level of DRS overwhelmers which is basically not an overtaking aid but an execution method. For your sanity I really hope you didn't find the Grosjean-Hamilton overtake a glorious one, for example. That's show, not racing. Based on all your posts, ranting, factual mistakes, general dumbness (let Schumacher push all he wants and make one pitstop more, if he'd really do that it wouldn't be just one more stop than others but many, same thing for others, thanks to Pirelli. And btw, IF Pirelli were to listen to Schumacher and go for maximum attack-tyres, it might turn out that it won't help MSC at all against the opposition and racing at reduced speed might have flattered the gap between the top, his teammate and him, that's what I think), ignoring factual arguments and spraying around unproved assumptions like a moron it wouldn't surprise me if you were getting off on crashes too because that's another way of finding spectacle in F1. You are scarily close to Bubba J, one of Jeff Dunhams personalities, "watching Nascar and drinkin' beer". That might be the sport for you!

Edited by MightyMoose, 09 May 2012 - 13:20.
Removed: Sorry mate, I will not go down to your level and make it personal with details about employment, age, etc. Obvious troll = obvious. Have fun down there!


#19243 puxanando

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Posted 09 May 2012 - 12:59

McLaren team principal Martin Whitmarsh has defended Pirelli’s tyres following Michael Schumacher’s criticism of them after the last race.

“If Pirelli make tyres which give drivers and teams a real challenge and add to the spectacle the driver, understandably if he’s had a bad race, will complain about them,” said Whitmarsh, speaking at a Vodafone McLaren Mercedes phone-in.


Whitmarsh says criticism of Pirelli’s tyres is “wrong”

WEB>>>

#19244 schubacca

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Posted 09 May 2012 - 13:10

For me, Pirelli is manipulating the competition for the following reasons:

1) They feel that it is their duty to create "exciting" races

2) They create tyres that drop off way too quickly

3) They are adding extra gaps between compounds

I could accept gaps in compounds because it was done before. What I cannot accept is Hembery talking about "keeping teams on their toes" aka randomizing information that engineers need to provide the drivers with a proper set up.

MS is not wrong in his criticism. RS and others that still feel that they can win WDCs have to keep quiet. MS on the other hand has the money, fame, and WDCs that he does particularly give damn what Pirelli thinks of him.

MS is driving superbly. And I think that him coming out and being candid is bringing the anti-MS brigade out in full force.

F1 is artificial racing now.

DRS and Pirelli has seen to that. Passing was special and memorable. Now with DRS, Pirelli AND the outlaw of defensive driving it means very little to me.....


That is just me. I started a thread about classic driver excuses a couple of weeks ago. Now, I can say I would honestly believe if a driver blamed the tyres for being passed.

MS got passed by JB and MW last year in Canada. Was that honestly an exciting pass? He pressed a button and scooted by....



#19245 schubacca

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Posted 09 May 2012 - 13:11

Whitmarsh says criticism of Pirelli’s tyres is “wrong”

WEB>>>



Only Schumacher had a great race.....

Only Schumacher is enjoying his best season since coming back....

#19246 ivand911

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Posted 09 May 2012 - 13:18

Whitmarsh says criticism of Pirelli’s tyres is “wrong”

WEB>>>

You should stop reading after the first CHALLENGE word. What do you expect him to say? McLaren can't survive without F1. Get it?

Edited by ivand911, 09 May 2012 - 13:20.


#19247 spacekid

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Posted 09 May 2012 - 13:27

The problem for Schu is that sure the tyres are not ideal and they are not racing flat out (I agree with him) but its the same for the other drivers too. It seems that some of the others have been better at adapting than he has (especially considering the types of tyres he got used to over the years).


Please highlight to me during which races in 2012 Michael has struggled for pace compared to anyone else because of the tyres? Or where he has blamed the 2012 Pirellis for his 'lack of pace'.?

As was pointed out by a poster higher up, it two football teams play on a water logged or badly cut up pitch its 'the same for everyone' but the players can still speak up that the conditions don't allow optimal football. And I don't think they get these sorts of accusations thrown at them like on this thread.

So again please highlight the races in 2012 where Michael has struggled for pace on these Pirellis and not adapted as well as everyone else because you, aditya, rayintoronto and the others all keep claiming this and I must have missed those races.

Otherwise it looks like you are twisting the facts to suit your argument. The races I watched he had a gearbox failure while leading Nico, got hit from behind and still finished ahead of Nico, lost a wheel in a pit stop while a few seconds behind Nico and had a DRS failure during quali, started last, and finished the race in the points only 15 seconds behind Nico. But you know better.

Edited by spacekid, 09 May 2012 - 16:42.
Removed: I'm sorry but I really expecty better from one of the mods.


#19248 fieraku

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Posted 09 May 2012 - 13:39

Whitmarsh says criticism of Pirelli’s tyres is “wrong”

WEB>>>

:drunk:

Schumacher earned only 3 fewer points than LH who started on the front row compared to MSC's 22nd grid spot.Schu had a GREAT race infact.MW is talking rubbish as always.

#19249 aditya-now

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Posted 09 May 2012 - 13:40

53,50% do. Pirelli 2012 or Bridgestone 2010


So it was 57% in favour of Pirelli's line, all option counted together, on F1 fanatic.uk. Not really that much different than on the BB here with 53,50%, but the trend is clear - people enjoy it more than they don't enjoy it, and Martin Whitmarsh obviously has a point.

It's up to Schumacher now to do the talking on the track.


#19250 Diablobb81

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Posted 09 May 2012 - 13:46

BS. Having more than 40% disagree shows that there is a valid issue with the tires.

Edited by Diablobb81, 09 May 2012 - 13:46.