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#19251 Pamphlet

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Posted 09 May 2012 - 10:12

a) why does Rosberg deliver and MSC not?


2010 - no argument, MSC was genuinely horrible and Rosberg at his strongest.

2011 - MSC was the stronger of the two, but a near-Vettel2010-esque season caused him to miss out on big points. Canada and Spa come to mind, where he had some stupendously good performances yet was beaten by things that were out of his control (starting from the back of the grid in Spa (but nevertheless beating Rosberg) and being DRS'd by Button and Webber in Canada because DRS became available).

2012 - MSC has been the strongest of the two so far.
Qualifying - Rosberg may be a good qualifier, but 3 times out of 4 he has shown severe weakness and a lack of concentration in Q3. Schuey takes this one.
Race - In Australia Schuey was running third and easily matching Vettel's pace when his gearbox gave out.
In Malaysia he annihilated Rosberg despite his incident with Grosjean early on.
China is an exception, but then that was an exception in every right as not only did Schumacher get screwed over by his pit crew, but so did Button, leaving Rosberg (who had reached the cliff at the end of the race) to trundle his way to a win. Also, Massa.
In Bahrain Schuey had equal pace despite having to make his way through the back of the grid.
That's 2-1 to Schuey at the very least. There's no denying Rosberg's prowess in China, but that was probably the luckiest a driver will get this year as the conditions allowed Mercedes to sidestep the tyre shenanigans and Button was screwed out of a win. (Yes, win. He had the pace and Rosberg hit the cliff.)

Regardless, I highly doubt that Mercedes will return to the form they showed in China, and my hunch is that Schuey himself knows that. Barring the W-Duct, they have nothing. Worse yet, they still have the same tyre issues from last year. Of course he's going to be pissed off at missing out on an easy 2nd or 3rd place, and especially seeing his teammate get far, far luckier and even win.

1 unlucky weekend is fine. Two or three, maybe. 1.25 seasons? Not a chance.


Yes, Michael has been unlucky, yes, Michael has been better at times. Yet over the whole period Nico has dominated Michael. And we still don't know how good Nico really is.


Again, Vettel vs Webber 2010. Luck can easily manipulate the "apparent" skill difference between two drivers.

b) is there a hidden agenda behind Michael's attacks on Pirelli? Does he really think he can get preferential treatment by attacking them publicly? Does it really have to do with Merc not yet signing the Concorde agreement (if so, then what do the tires have to do with it?)?? Did Paul Hembery not please MSC as he should have pleased him in Michael's eyes, and so he will continue to receive retaliation from the Schu?

Whatever the case being, if Michael were to perform better his fans would not have to excuse him consistently with all kinds of arguments but they would simply enjoy Michael's driving and celebrate his triumphs. Because that is what MSC came back for from retirement.


It's funny that you mention the fans when you yourself have absolutely no arguments, barring 2010, to show that Rosberg has been better in any way of the word. As for the tyres, we still know from Brundle that he's not alone on this one. And it's not even his OR Pirelli's fault either - the fans were stupid enough to ask for more entertainment in the fan forum. Pirelli did their job. There's a reason why Vettel and Webber are sidestepping the matter and mentioning the fans' enjoyment - the viewers genuinely like the racing in 2012 compared to the racing in the previous years. Doesn't mean the drivers do.

Edited by Pamphlet, 09 May 2012 - 10:15.


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#19252 Raelene

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Posted 09 May 2012 - 10:17

Whatever the case being, if Michael were to perform better his fans would not have to excuse him consistently with all kinds of arguments but they would simply enjoy Michael's driving and celebrate his triumphs. Because that is what MSC came back for from retirement.


How could Michael have performed better this year?

Please answer and tell me - what he could have done in the races better this year.



#19253 ivand911

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Posted 09 May 2012 - 10:20

I just hope MS didn't win this race. Will be a big facepalm. :lol: And the temperatures will be right for W03.

#19254 Sakae

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Posted 09 May 2012 - 10:20

...the viewers genuinely like the racing in 2012 compared to the racing in the previous years...

This viewer genuinely doesn't.


#19255 Pamphlet

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Posted 09 May 2012 - 10:24

This viewer genuinely doesn't.


Most do. That's the thing.

#19256 aditya-now

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Posted 09 May 2012 - 10:33

Most do. That's the thing.


53,50% do. Pirelli 2012 or Bridgestone 2010


#19257 Pamphlet

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Posted 09 May 2012 - 10:34

53,50% do. Pirelli 2012 or Bridgestone 2010


Autosport. The only place where people forget about issues like the 2010 Bridgestones so easily and so quickly. F1Fanatic, a more credible source (incredibly enough), paints a different light - the majority of people like the tyres or would prefer them to be only slightly more conservative.

Edited by Pamphlet, 09 May 2012 - 10:35.


#19258 ivand911

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Posted 09 May 2012 - 10:44

Autosport. The only place where people forget about issues like the 2010 Bridgestones so easily and so quickly. F1Fanatic, a more credible source (incredibly enough), paints a different light - the majority of people like the tyres or would prefer them to be only slightly more conservative.

I don't think so. I think the guy who write this blog can be easily "persuaded" to change his view on one or another matter. Companies can easily do this. And he is forming "opinions" latter.

#19259 Pamphlet

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Posted 09 May 2012 - 10:47

I don't think so. I think the guy who write this blog can be easily "persuaded" to change his view on one or another matter. Companies can easily do this. And he is forming "opinions" latter.


Hence why I said "incredibly enough". The part about the tyres was up to that site's community to decide, though.

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#19260 ali_M

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Posted 09 May 2012 - 11:11

It's funny that you mention the fans when you yourself have absolutely no arguments, barring 2010, to show that Rosberg has been better in any way of the word. As for the tyres, we still know from Brundle that he's not alone on this one. And it's not even his OR Pirelli's fault either - the fans were stupid enough to ask for more entertainment in the fan forum. Pirelli did their job. There's a reason why Vettel and Webber are sidestepping the matter and mentioning the fans' enjoyment - the viewers genuinely like the racing in 2012 compared to the racing in the previous years. Doesn't mean the drivers do.


This is interesting since the racing was never initially about fans, though many came to watch. The sports popularity grew when it was about pure racing and not doing stuff to 'beef up the show'. Now the sport has been commercialised into a money making machine that the teams don't get much of. Money making that is supported by the fans so the fans must be pleased. Sad situation really when one considers the history of the sport. I doubt it would have become this popular if its current philosophy was the status quo all along its history. :well:

#19261 RacingReporter

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Posted 09 May 2012 - 11:55

You obvioulsy Wiki'd Schumi's salary but have no clue of anything else. You honestly think Schumi's paid only 8 Mil a year - the same amount as a guy who had no GP wins to his name when the contracts were signed? :drunk:

Don't be a naive moron, my friend!

And What the f**k does Rambo have anything to do with it? :lol:

I've been watching Grand Prix racing since childhood...since 1979 and have forgotten more stuff than you can possibly Wiki. You have no clue who I am and what I do for a living. So, I'll be civilized and say that your post is a bit rubbish in some places in that it's quite obviously intended to get a rise out of me. :yawnface:

I'm sure you can do better than that. So, please be my guest and try harder!

:wave:

EDIT

Who said I wanted over-takes? In Bahrain, Vettel held off Raikkonen and there was no over-take for the win. That's fine by me. No one's asking for shit piles of overtakes.

I'm merely saying that the main stakeholders asked the tyre supplier to help make the show more entertaining. That's all.

Nope, no wiki, I'm just following the news closely ;) Oh btw, you forgot to look at what I wrote. I said it was just Merc supplying Schumacher with 8 mil a year, wasn't saying anything about personal sponsor deals which will add to the margin considerably.

You have been following F1 since 1979? Good for you! The way you are acting over here is like a sucker for on-track action on the level of DRS overwhelmers which is basically not an overtaking aid but an execution method. For your sanity I really hope you didn't find the Grosjean-Hamilton overtake a glorious one, for example. That's show, not racing. Based on all your posts, ranting, factual mistakes, general dumbness (let Schumacher push all he wants and make one pitstop more, if he'd really do that it wouldn't be just one more stop than others but many, same thing for others, thanks to Pirelli. And btw, IF Pirelli were to listen to Schumacher and go for maximum attack-tyres, it might turn out that it won't help MSC at all against the opposition and racing at reduced speed might have flattered the gap between the top, his teammate and him, that's what I think), ignoring factual arguments and spraying around unproved assumptions like a moron it wouldn't surprise me if you were getting off on crashes too because that's another way of finding spectacle in F1. You are scarily close to Bubba J, one of Jeff Dunhams personalities, "watching Nascar and drinkin' beer". That might be the sport for you!

Edited by MightyMoose, 09 May 2012 - 13:20.
Removed: Sorry mate, I will not go down to your level and make it personal with details about employment, age, etc. Obvious troll = obvious. Have fun down there!


#19262 puxanando

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Posted 09 May 2012 - 12:59

McLaren team principal Martin Whitmarsh has defended Pirelli’s tyres following Michael Schumacher’s criticism of them after the last race.

“If Pirelli make tyres which give drivers and teams a real challenge and add to the spectacle the driver, understandably if he’s had a bad race, will complain about them,” said Whitmarsh, speaking at a Vodafone McLaren Mercedes phone-in.


Whitmarsh says criticism of Pirelli’s tyres is “wrong”

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#19263 schubacca

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Posted 09 May 2012 - 13:10

For me, Pirelli is manipulating the competition for the following reasons:

1) They feel that it is their duty to create "exciting" races

2) They create tyres that drop off way too quickly

3) They are adding extra gaps between compounds

I could accept gaps in compounds because it was done before. What I cannot accept is Hembery talking about "keeping teams on their toes" aka randomizing information that engineers need to provide the drivers with a proper set up.

MS is not wrong in his criticism. RS and others that still feel that they can win WDCs have to keep quiet. MS on the other hand has the money, fame, and WDCs that he does particularly give damn what Pirelli thinks of him.

MS is driving superbly. And I think that him coming out and being candid is bringing the anti-MS brigade out in full force.

F1 is artificial racing now.

DRS and Pirelli has seen to that. Passing was special and memorable. Now with DRS, Pirelli AND the outlaw of defensive driving it means very little to me.....


That is just me. I started a thread about classic driver excuses a couple of weeks ago. Now, I can say I would honestly believe if a driver blamed the tyres for being passed.

MS got passed by JB and MW last year in Canada. Was that honestly an exciting pass? He pressed a button and scooted by....



#19264 schubacca

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Posted 09 May 2012 - 13:11

Whitmarsh says criticism of Pirelli’s tyres is “wrong”

WEB>>>



Only Schumacher had a great race.....

Only Schumacher is enjoying his best season since coming back....

#19265 ivand911

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Posted 09 May 2012 - 13:18

Whitmarsh says criticism of Pirelli’s tyres is “wrong”

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You should stop reading after the first CHALLENGE word. What do you expect him to say? McLaren can't survive without F1. Get it?

Edited by ivand911, 09 May 2012 - 13:20.


#19266 spacekid

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Posted 09 May 2012 - 13:27

The problem for Schu is that sure the tyres are not ideal and they are not racing flat out (I agree with him) but its the same for the other drivers too. It seems that some of the others have been better at adapting than he has (especially considering the types of tyres he got used to over the years).


Please highlight to me during which races in 2012 Michael has struggled for pace compared to anyone else because of the tyres? Or where he has blamed the 2012 Pirellis for his 'lack of pace'.?

As was pointed out by a poster higher up, it two football teams play on a water logged or badly cut up pitch its 'the same for everyone' but the players can still speak up that the conditions don't allow optimal football. And I don't think they get these sorts of accusations thrown at them like on this thread.

So again please highlight the races in 2012 where Michael has struggled for pace on these Pirellis and not adapted as well as everyone else because you, aditya, rayintoronto and the others all keep claiming this and I must have missed those races.

Otherwise it looks like you are twisting the facts to suit your argument. The races I watched he had a gearbox failure while leading Nico, got hit from behind and still finished ahead of Nico, lost a wheel in a pit stop while a few seconds behind Nico and had a DRS failure during quali, started last, and finished the race in the points only 15 seconds behind Nico. But you know better.

Edited by spacekid, 09 May 2012 - 16:42.
Removed: I'm sorry but I really expecty better from one of the mods.


#19267 fieraku

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Posted 09 May 2012 - 13:39

Whitmarsh says criticism of Pirelli’s tyres is “wrong”

WEB>>>

:drunk:

Schumacher earned only 3 fewer points than LH who started on the front row compared to MSC's 22nd grid spot.Schu had a GREAT race infact.MW is talking rubbish as always.

#19268 aditya-now

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Posted 09 May 2012 - 13:40

53,50% do. Pirelli 2012 or Bridgestone 2010


So it was 57% in favour of Pirelli's line, all option counted together, on F1 fanatic.uk. Not really that much different than on the BB here with 53,50%, but the trend is clear - people enjoy it more than they don't enjoy it, and Martin Whitmarsh obviously has a point.

It's up to Schumacher now to do the talking on the track.


#19269 Diablobb81

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Posted 09 May 2012 - 13:46

BS. Having more than 40% disagree shows that there is a valid issue with the tires.

Edited by Diablobb81, 09 May 2012 - 13:46.


#19270 SenorSjon

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Posted 09 May 2012 - 13:51

I think that is a low score. When you hear the WWF-adopters around here, Pirelli should be at 80% in favor or so, especially since they are the new kid on the block.

#19271 MightyMoose

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Posted 09 May 2012 - 13:53

So it was 57% in favour of Pirelli's line, all option counted together, on F1 fanatic.uk. Not really that much different than on the BB here with 53,50%, but the trend is clear - people enjoy it more than they don't enjoy it, and Martin Whitmarsh obviously has a point.

It's up to Schumacher now to do the talking on the track.

Whitmarsh was the originator of asking Pirelli for even more 'challenging' tires this season, he's not going to say a negative word now. Just like they - McLaren - kept quiet for obvious reasons about Bahrain.

I'd love for MS to have a great race at Barcelona and then say "Yeah, great race, still shitty tires", what on earth would people like you say then?????? Probably say how ungrateful he is etc etc etc.

I think it's quite clear 2010 Bridgestones were too durable - except in Canada, which let's not forget was the inspiration for the teams to say to Pirelli "make tires this way so we have races similar to Canada 2010". So given the 2 options, I'd choose Pirelli 2012 options because at least the racing has some "unknowns" to it, but am I happy with it? Nope, it's flawed and needs to be addressed to get a better balance. I'd prefer a situation where a soft is 0.5 secs per lap quicker, but will last 15-18 laps.... if you push it hard. So in a 60 lap race, let's say a 2 stopper Soft, Soft, Hard vs a 3 stopper on Soft, Soft, Hard, Soft could see the 3 stopped trying to close down the gap in the last 10 laps as the Hards reach the end of their lifespan.


#19272 Sakae

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Posted 09 May 2012 - 13:59

Some people speak with both ends of their bodies. Whitmarsh gets involved (from all people), and then he says "we didn't get them into operating window in Bahrain". Well, that's the point, FFS. This viewer is not interested in your stupid engineering experiments; what I want to see is tires in their best condition, Hamilton and Button not whining, talking (as usually) big about victory is ours, and then having Seb and Michael beating snout out of them. I am sick and tired of Hembery anyone else who is "improving show"; well they did not by leaving Mcdonald out of fight.

Edited by Sakae, 09 May 2012 - 14:03.


#19273 aditya-now

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Posted 09 May 2012 - 14:19

I'd love for MS to have a great race at Barcelona and then say "Yeah, great race, still shitty tires", what on earth would people like you say then?????? Probably say how ungrateful he is etc etc etc.


MightyMoose, here you are mistaken: if Michael wins in Barca I will say "Great!" and the whole paddock will be celebrating! Remember Barrichello's first victory in 2009? That kind of feeling would arise, not only in me.

If Michael then would say "But the tires are shitty!" I would say "at least he is consistent in what he says!".




#19274 carbonfibre

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Posted 09 May 2012 - 18:14

That people even question if Michael knows what he is talking about. He has been in F1 for so long and rode with so many different tyres im pretty sure he knows what is talking about. It's just sad that the tyres prefent drivers from going at it 100%. Sure it's nice that you have a lot of different winners etc but what is it worth if it's artificial?

#19275 Pits

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Posted 09 May 2012 - 19:54

So it was 57% in favour of Pirelli's line, all option counted together, on F1 fanatic.uk. Not really that much different than on the BB here with 53,50%, but the trend is clear - people enjoy it more than they don't enjoy it, and Martin Whitmarsh obviously has a point.

It's up to Schumacher now to do the talking on the track.



Well if you check the poll on F1Fanatic it only has about 325 votes. If you check the james Allen Poll about the same subject, you will see a 46% in favor of Schumacher and only 33% against Schumacher, this after more than 4000 votes. I think that is a better reflection of the general oppinion, fan's don't like it eather. :wave:

Edit*

over 4,000 fans voted in our poll and 46% agreed with Schumacher, with 33% disagreeing


Edited by Pits, 09 May 2012 - 20:03.


#19276 jj2728

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Posted 09 May 2012 - 20:37

i loved the days when a driver could do qualifying lap after qualifying lap..."hey Michael, we need you to make up .... seconds in 16 laps" - "ok".... anyone remember Hungary 1998


Interesting that you should bring this up. I was just looking through the October 1998 edition of MotorSport and Simon Taylor's 'Modern Times' article summed up nicely the paradox that is Michael Schumacher:

HUNGARY -After the leading Mclarens made their second stops, with Hakkinen already troubled by a handling problem that would drop him to sixth, the Ferrari pit crew did their calculations, and then techinical director Ross Brawn got on the radio to Schumacher, 'You've got 19 laps to build up a 25 second lead.' From the constricted heat and noise of the F300's cockpit came back the clipped message: 'I'll do my best'. Schumacher's best is, of course, better than anything. For the next 20 minutes he drove as well as he has ever driven. At one point the car got away from him on the long third-gear right-hander onto the main straight, and snapped sideways across the grass, but miraculously he gathered it up again. When with 15 laps to go, he came in for his last splash of fuel, his lead over Coulthard was 29 seconds. The pitstop took 7.7 seconds - good but not great by Ferrari standards - and he rejoined the race still in the lead. The job was done."

SPA - "David Coulthard - he, of all of the F1 drivers - would never under any circumstances, deliberately endanger another driver's life, let alone his as well. Schumacher had an unthreatened lead of over half a minute at the time of the accident and, with Hakkinen out of the race and visibility treacherously poor, had every reason to lap slower cars with extreme care. Yet, a couple of laps earlier, he almost hit Diniz under similar circumstances. Best driver in the world he may be, but his uncontrolled rage in the pits and his verbal attack on Coulthard were an embarrassing and belittling display which left him and motor racing, poorer - as do his and Ferrari's insinuations that there was more to this incident that met the eye. One might guess that, consciously or subconsciously, he felt foolish for having thrown away 10 points when the championship was finely poised, and his automatic reaction was to attack. As Damon Hill says, Blaming others is a tactic Michael uses when he has made a mistake, targeting an innocent party to deflect from his own error."


#19277 tifosi4life

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Posted 09 May 2012 - 21:15

SPA - "David Coulthard - he, of all of the F1 drivers - would never under any circumstances, deliberately endanger another driver's life, let alone his as well. Schumacher had an unthreatened lead of over half a minute at the time of the accident and, with Hakkinen out of the race and visibility treacherously poor, had every reason to lap slower cars with extreme care. Yet, a couple of laps earlier, he almost hit Diniz under similar circumstances. Best driver in the world he may be, but his uncontrolled rage in the pits and his verbal attack on Coulthard were an embarrassing and belittling display which left him and motor racing, poorer - as do his and Ferrari's insinuations that there was more to this incident that met the eye. One might guess that, consciously or subconsciously, he felt foolish for having thrown away 10 points when the championship was finely poised, and his automatic reaction was to attack. As Damon Hill says, Blaming others is a tactic Michael uses when he has made a mistake, targeting an innocent party to deflect from his own error."


sorry, but it seams DC saw things a little differently after some time had passed:

At Spa in 1998, Schumacher's Ferrari ploughed into Coulthard's car in heavy spray while the German was leading and trying to lap Coulthard. The Scot vehemently denied he had braked early at the time.

"I'm not doing a Fernando-beating thing," Coulthard said. "But I realised on reflection ... when Michael ran into the back of me, his reaction was that I'd brake tested him or tried to kill him and all that sort of thing.

"The stewards looked at the data and I hadn't braked, so it was just all brushed under the carpet. The reality is that I lifted to let him pass me, but I lifted in heavy spray on the racing line. You should never do that. I would never do that now..."


DC "Crash was my fault"

Edited by tifosi4life, 09 May 2012 - 21:19.


#19278 Massa_f1

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Posted 09 May 2012 - 21:35

sorry, but it seams DC saw things a little differently after some time had passed:

At Spa in 1998, Schumacher's Ferrari ploughed into Coulthard's car in heavy spray while the German was leading and trying to lap Coulthard. The Scot vehemently denied he had braked early at the time.

"I'm not doing a Fernando-beating thing," Coulthard said. "But I realised on reflection ... when Michael ran into the back of me, his reaction was that I'd brake tested him or tried to kill him and all that sort of thing.

"The stewards looked at the data and I hadn't braked, so it was just all brushed under the carpet. The reality is that I lifted to let him pass me, but I lifted in heavy spray on the racing line. You should never do that. I would never do that now..."


DC "Crash was my fault"


If a driver did that now it would be drive through penalty. No question. Drivers get angry. I am sure Schumacher regrets loosing his cool so much. Things happen in the heat of the moment.

#19279 jj2728

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Posted 09 May 2012 - 21:36

sorry, but it seams DC saw things a little differently after some time had passed:

At Spa in 1998, Schumacher's Ferrari ploughed into Coulthard's car in heavy spray while the German was leading and trying to lap Coulthard. The Scot vehemently denied he had braked early at the time.

"I'm not doing a Fernando-beating thing," Coulthard said. "But I realised on reflection ... when Michael ran into the back of me, his reaction was that I'd brake tested him or tried to kill him and all that sort of thing.

"The stewards looked at the data and I hadn't braked, so it was just all brushed under the carpet. The reality is that I lifted to let him pass me, but I lifted in heavy spray on the racing line. You should never do that. I would never do that now..."


DC "Crash was my fault"



No need to apologize.
Hindsight is always 20/20 and Coulthard admitted that his inexperience led to him lifting, but it was not a deliberate attempt to punt Schumacher off.

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#19280 Raelene

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Posted 10 May 2012 - 01:05

Shaun

I think you might be right...

I'm still waiting for replies as to how MSC has blamed the tyres for his non results this year , how he hasn't handled the tyres, and how he could have done better



#19281 ali_M

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Posted 10 May 2012 - 02:25

You'll not see anything convincing on those questions since there's no genuine source. It's all contrived.

I was just watching a Gilles Villeneuve documentary and it was interesting the recap on ground effect technology. Gilles complained that this tech that was available to most of the teams, BTW, took away from the challenge with racing because the car was simply glued to the road through the corners. The driver's skill wasn't factoring much anymore which took away from the essence of the competition among drivers. It took a fight led by Villeneuve to have the regulations changed to outlaw the technology since it was creating quite the spectacle. Of course, not all the drivers were backing the fight (driver skill being less of a differentiator with such technology in force).

Sounding familiar, doesn't it? Schumi... the racer... not feeling challenged with the current tyre situation that's the same for everyone and is supposed to spice up the racing. With the current corporate and political climate, it's difficult to know which drivers feel the same way. What a sad situation really.

Edited by ali_M, 10 May 2012 - 02:28.


#19282 MightyMoose

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Posted 10 May 2012 - 02:30

Ok. I've deleted some posts.

This flaming, trolling obsession & counter-attack philosophy is now done & dusted.

The person who regurgitated the observation(s) about Monaco 2006 is trolling, the person who backed you up is continuing to troll. The ones who attacked the trolls are just as guilty of derailing the thread & the final person who made the comment about buried idols should consider themselves lucky it was me who saw this thread.

Enough is enough, if you can't be in this thread & behave, maybe you ought not to be on this forum AT ALL.

For the last time, if someone trolls, report them. They will be dealt with. Responding just muddies the waters & makes it near impossible for us (Moderators) to do our jobs. If this continues, I guarantee some of you will be 'sitting on the bench' or if you prefer 'relegated to Friday Test Status'.... namely you will not be posting here for a considerable period of time.

Frankly I am now at the point where if multiple people get to sit on the sidelines quietly, I don't care. If that is what it takes to get everyone behaving like sensible adults, then so be it, but the results may not be pretty.

Please do not make me, or any other moderator, press those buttons.

Thanks.

#19283 Diablobb81

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Posted 10 May 2012 - 03:26

No need to apologize.
Hindsight is always 20/20 and Coulthard admitted that his inexperience led to him lifting, but it was not a deliberate attempt to punt Schumacher off.


He probably didn't want to crash on purpose. But he certainly held him up on purpose (which was a catalyst for the crash).

What DC did is just as worse as anything Michael ever did. Hence the whole hypocrisy about Michael's driving, people remembering what Michael did and always forgetting what was done to him.

And to blame Michael for anything at Spa is hilariously stupid.

Edited by Diablobb81, 10 May 2012 - 04:05.


#19284 Raelene

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Posted 10 May 2012 - 03:29

the fact that they sent him out after his issues...shows they wanted to hold MSC up. I gree, he didn't want to crash, but he certainly wanted to hold him up.

#19285 MightyMoose

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Posted 10 May 2012 - 04:02

I think anyone with the slightest knowledge of F1 knew that DC was responsible for the crash, we can clearly see he was slightly off the racing line, but no way near enough... and it was clear he'd eased off. MS had zero chance of avoiding him.

Not many people stopped to think about the potential for a Pironi type crash there.... as it was we got a Senna into the arse of Brundle @ Adelaide 1989 repeat. sadly without the epic camera shot!

I don't blame MS for being extremely pissed off and agitated afterwards. For DC to come forward and admit his error was reasonable, it was based upon him being unceremoniously brake-tested off the track at the Nurburgring by a Mr Alonso though.

#19286 tifosi4life

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Posted 10 May 2012 - 04:23

I also felt DC was sent back out to slow down MS... but not much more. I went to the next GP, Monza! I remember the all tension over the Spa accident and the rumors that David was worried about fan backlash. But we had the last laugh, a Ferrari one-two at Monza. Best GP ever.

#19287 RacingReporter

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Posted 10 May 2012 - 09:19

He probably didn't want to crash on purpose. But he certainly held him up on purpose (which was a catalyst for the crash).

What DC did is just as worse as anything Michael ever did. Hence the whole hypocrisy about Michael's driving, people remembering what Michael did and always forgetting what was done to him.

And to blame Michael for anything at Spa is hilariously stupid.

An annotation I'd like to add: lifting in an F1 car is just like putting the brakes on in a normal car. If a car is at (pretty much) max speed behind it, then you get a crash as both Schumacher in 98 behind DC and Coulthard in 03 found out with a lifting++ Alonso.



#19288 Boing 2

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Posted 10 May 2012 - 10:19

Just to be clear, this is just 4 years after F1 saw two driver deaths and two fractured necks (Alesi-Lehto) and just 3 years after DC's own team mate nearly died from head injuries and you're really suggesting that DC deliberately caused a car to rear-end him at high speed? not just that but he risked being a quadraplegic to help his team mate (who he already felt was being favoured in the team) to win a world title?

Also, on a purely practical level, if Schumacher couldn't see DC because of the spray despite being behind him and looking right at him, how the hell did DC see Schumacher through the same spray, whilst looking in his tiny little rear view mirrors and driving at his speed?

MS had a clear dry track at Jerez and couldn't time his attack properly to take out Jaques but DC can do it perfectly in blind spray? Unlikely.

Coulthard was a clean driver his entire career, you can argue that he should have gone left instead of right, or that Schumacher shouldn't have been flying with a 30 second gap and a pace advantage over the 2nd place guy. You can argue about drivers making bad judgement calls but to call it a deliberate accident is just idiocy.

#19289 Diablobb81

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Posted 10 May 2012 - 10:32

But did he hold him up on purpose? And did that ultimately cause the accident?

Sadly, yes.

Edited by Diablobb81, 10 May 2012 - 10:33.


#19290 pUs

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Posted 10 May 2012 - 10:42

Just to be clear, this is just 4 years after F1 saw two driver deaths and two fractured necks (Alesi-Lehto) and just 3 years after DC's own team mate nearly died from head injuries and you're really suggesting that DC deliberately caused a car to rear-end him at high speed? not just that but he risked being a quadraplegic to help his team mate (who he already felt was being favoured in the team) to win a world title?

Also, on a purely practical level, if Schumacher couldn't see DC because of the spray despite being behind him and looking right at him, how the hell did DC see Schumacher through the same spray, whilst looking in his tiny little rear view mirrors and driving at his speed?

MS had a clear dry track at Jerez and couldn't time his attack properly to take out Jaques but DC can do it perfectly in blind spray? Unlikely.

Coulthard was a clean driver his entire career, you can argue that he should have gone left instead of right, or that Schumacher shouldn't have been flying with a 30 second gap and a pace advantage over the 2nd place guy. You can argue about drivers making bad judgement calls but to call it a deliberate accident is just idiocy.


But what on earth is DC himself referring to then? "Wouldn't do it ever again"... "it" ? According to you, he did nothing wrong?

#19291 ivand911

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Posted 10 May 2012 - 10:45

Also, on a purely practical level, if Schumacher couldn't see DC because of the spray despite being behind him and looking right at him, how the hell did DC see Schumacher through the same spray, whilst looking in his tiny little rear view mirrors and driving at his speed?

On a purely practical level - team radio! I guess you missed this from last page:
http://www.smh.com.a...7430084085.html

The reality is that I lifted to let him pass me, but I lifted in heavy spray on the racing line. You should never do that. I would never do that now.



#19292 Boing 2

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Posted 10 May 2012 - 10:56

But what on earth is DC himself referring to then? "Wouldn't do it ever again"... "it" ? According to you, he did nothing wrong?

I didn't say he did nothing wrong, I said he didn't deliberately cause an accident. I quite clearly said you can argue about the drivers judgement calls.

Coulthard was a clean driver his entire career, you can argue that he should have gone left instead of right, or that Schumacher shouldn't have been flying with a 30 second gap and a pace advantage over the 2nd place guy. You can argue about drivers making bad judgement calls but to call it a deliberate accident is just idiocy.


You ask what DC is referring to but strangely, the part where he explains very clearly what he's referring to is the part you remove from your quote.....

"The stewards looked at the data and I hadn't braked, so it was just all brushed under the carpet. The reality is that I lifted to let him pass me, but I lifted in heavy spray on the racing line. You should never do that. I would never do that now..."


He's saying that you shouldn't lift suddenly in zero visibility with a car anywhere near you.

#19293 Boing 2

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Posted 10 May 2012 - 11:05

On a purely practical level - team radio! I guess you missed this from last page:
http://www.smh.com.a...7430084085.html


Really? you think the split second timing required to dummy a driver into hitting you can be co-ordinated blindly via radio? you realise that even if the team was watching a TV feed of DC at the time, there's a delay in that feed that is measured in seconds and that Spa is notorious for having poor radio reception. By the time the team saw MS pull up to DC the accident had already happened.

As I said, Schumacher himself was unable to take out Villeneve cleanly with a clear view of his target, the notion that a better attempt could be co-ordinated blindly, via a dodgy radio feed from a team watching a delayed tv feed is laughable.

Edited by Boing 2, 10 May 2012 - 11:05.


#19294 ali_M

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Posted 10 May 2012 - 11:06

On a purely practical level - team radio! I guess you missed this from last page:
http://www.smh.com.a...7430084085.html


You're both right. More of that article aught to be quoted. Let me do the honours:

"The stewards looked at the data and I hadn't braked, so it was just all brushed under the carpet. The reality is that I lifted to let him pass me, but I lifted in heavy spray on the racing line. You should never do that. I would never do that now.

"In 1998, I didn't have the experience and the knowledge, and I had never had someone run into the back of me.

"The minute I knew he was there, and I was told by the team that he was and was trying to allow him to pass me, I should have made a smarter decision."

Coulthard said he had learnt from the experience and that drivers such as Alonso would have to learn as well.

"The risk is that it could have been a very dangerous accident for Michael and Nurburgring could have been a very dangerous accident for me," he said.

"Eventually, somewhere down the line, eight or 10 years from now, a young guy will come in and it will happen to Fernando and then he will feel slightly different about it."


DC couldn't see Michael to time the collision. He lifted in the race line when visibility was very poor. He admits his error in judgement at the time. His admission of an error causing an accident is NOT and admission of malevolence.

#19295 hammibal

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Posted 10 May 2012 - 11:24

You'll not see anything convincing on those questions since there's no genuine source. It's all contrived.

I was just watching a Gilles Villeneuve documentary and it was interesting the recap on ground effect technology. Gilles complained that this tech that was available to most of the teams, BTW, took away from the challenge with racing because the car was simply glued to the road through the corners. The driver's skill wasn't factoring much anymore which took away from the essence of the competition among drivers. It took a fight led by Villeneuve to have the regulations changed to outlaw the technology since it was creating quite the spectacle. Of course, not all the drivers were backing the fight (driver skill being less of a differentiator with such technology in force).

Sounding familiar, doesn't it? Schumi... the racer... not feeling challenged with the current tyre situation that's the same for everyone and is supposed to spice up the racing. With the current corporate and political climate, it's difficult to know which drivers feel the same way. What a sad situation really.

I think you got it wrong about Schumacher, he campaigned for keeping TC on safety grounds, he actually loved driver aids and the Ferrari used a lot of TC, Barrichello was surprised how little TC Honda used after leaving Ferrari

He probably didn't want to crash on purpose. But he certainly held him up on purpose (which was a catalyst for the crash).

What DC did is just as worse as anything Michael ever did. Hence the whole hypocrisy about Michael's driving, people remembering what Michael did and always forgetting what was done to him.

And to blame Michael for anything at Spa is hilariously stupid.



But what on earth is DC himself referring to then? "Wouldn't do it ever again"... "it" ? According to you, he did nothing wrong?

DC states that his only intention was to let Schumacher by, he thought lifting would help in the matter, however lifting on the racing line in spray was in hindsight not the best thing to do and he he would never do that again, to suggest that DC did it purpose to disadvantage Schumacher is ridiculous

#19296 Diablobb81

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Posted 10 May 2012 - 11:29

And why are you quoting me? I believe he didn't crash on purpose.

#19297 ali_M

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Posted 10 May 2012 - 11:41

I think you got it wrong about Schumacher, he campaigned for keeping TC on safety grounds, he actually loved driver aids and the Ferrari used a lot of TC, Barrichello was surprised how little TC Honda used after leaving Ferrari


Do we have to be so black and white in our POV? It doesn't work that way. How can it? :well:

We either comment on a specific issue or have an overall picture of an individual/sport/etc. You can't use one incident or piece of advocacy on the part of Schumacher to make an overall impression. Maybe you should find out why exactly he advocated traction control and now he's not happy with the current tyres??

Additionally, I'm not at all saying that Villeneuve and Schumacher are exactly the same. They're both racers with a will to win and in a satisfying way. They both have their different approaches in different eras and as different men. However, their essence and spirit are quite similar.

Edited by ali_M, 10 May 2012 - 11:44.


#19298 spacekid

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Posted 10 May 2012 - 11:59

Just to be clear, this is just 4 years after F1 saw two driver deaths and two fractured necks (Alesi-Lehto) and just 3 years after DC's own team mate nearly died from head injuries and you're really suggesting that DC deliberately caused a car to rear-end him at high speed? not just that but he risked being a quadraplegic to help his team mate (who he already felt was being favoured in the team) to win a world title?

Also, on a purely practical level, if Schumacher couldn't see DC because of the spray despite being behind him and looking right at him, how the hell did DC see Schumacher through the same spray, whilst looking in his tiny little rear view mirrors and driving at his speed?

MS had a clear dry track at Jerez and couldn't time his attack properly to take out Jaques but DC can do it perfectly in blind spray? Unlikely.

Coulthard was a clean driver his entire career, you can argue that he should have gone left instead of right, or that Schumacher shouldn't have been flying with a 30 second gap and a pace advantage over the 2nd place guy. You can argue about drivers making bad judgement calls but to call it a deliberate accident is just idiocy.


No one has suggested that at all, boing. If they have please directly quote them. What people have said is that DC lifted on the racing line which was a stupid mistake. It could have been a much nastier crash than it was, and Schumi was angry in the heat of the moment.

DC admitted he made an error, both he and Michael can joke about it now, so why are you still so angry about it?

#19299 ivand911

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Posted 10 May 2012 - 12:03

Really? you think the split second timing required to dummy a driver into hitting you can be co-ordinated blindly via radio? you realise that even if the team was watching a TV feed of DC at the time, there's a delay in that feed that is measured in seconds and that Spa is notorious for having poor radio reception. By the time the team saw MS pull up to DC the accident had already happened.

As I said, Schumacher himself was unable to take out Villeneve cleanly with a clear view of his target, the notion that a better attempt could be co-ordinated blindly, via a dodgy radio feed from a team watching a delayed tv feed is laughable.

Who is talking about seconds here, DC for sure know that MS is coming behind him. Maybe 1-2 laps before. He said that he was trying to give him space to pass, so he clearly knew in that moment that MS is behind him.


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#19300 hammibal

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Posted 10 May 2012 - 12:28

And why are you quoting me? I believe he didn't crash on purpose.

But you said he tried to hold him up on purpose

Do we have to be so black and white in our POV? It doesn't work that way. How can it? :well:

We either comment on a specific issue or have an overall picture of an individual/sport/etc. You can't use one incident or piece of advocacy on the part of Schumacher to make an overall impression. Maybe you should find out why exactly he advocated traction control and now he's not happy with the current tyres??

Additionally, I'm not at all saying that Villeneuve and Schumacher are exactly the same. They're both racers with a will to win and in a satisfying way. They both have their different approaches in different eras and as different men. However, their essence and spirit are quite similar.

I would think that Schumacher and Villenueve are perhaps polar opposites

Edited by hammibal, 10 May 2012 - 12:29.