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#19301 Pamphlet

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Posted 10 May 2012 - 19:06

did you guys saw what Barrichello is now saying about the 2002 Austrian GP when he was forced to let MS win ?

What a gigantic loser, POS. I mean, I don't get it when drivers fail to understand they are just not up there when it's so hugely obvious. What he is doing now is just an insult to sportsmanship and himself.


*shrug*

I still definitely agree with him. It was a piece of shit move from Ferrari when Michael was already clearly unable to lose the championship. What's worse is that Rubens had nowhere else to go, so his only option was to listen to them.

It's funny. I understand Germany 2010, but I don't understand any of the MSC&BAR team orders.

And of course Rubens wasn't going to fully match Schumacher. Nobody was going to do it. Pre-retirement MSC was the greatest driver of all time.

Edited by Pamphlet, 10 May 2012 - 19:08.


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#19302 Szoelloe

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Posted 10 May 2012 - 19:15

*shrug*

I still definitely agree with him. It was a piece of shit move from Ferrari when Michael was already clearly unable to lose the championship. What's worse is that Rubens had nowhere else to go, so his only option was to listen to them.

It's funny. I understand Germany 2010, but I don't understand any of the MSC&BAR team orders.


While I can agree with you, it is def not true he had nowhere else to go. If he wanted to, he could have done so. But Ferrari made it worthwhile for him, and he chose the private jet over his own honor. So whatever he says now has a bad smell to it for me. But this is so very dusty now. He was made over and over by MS, he was just not up to it. NR, for instance, I can see him shrug, smile, and step out the door for good if it would have happened to him.


#19303 jj2728

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Posted 10 May 2012 - 19:18

Not until you care to explain how MS is being beaten by NR.


Well, for starters a 33 point deficit might explain a bit because afterall, it's the points that matter.

#19304 Szoelloe

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Posted 10 May 2012 - 19:20

Well, for starters a 33 point deficit might explain a bit because afterall, it's the points that matter.


jj, you are usually more thoughtful than this?


#19305 Pamphlet

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Posted 10 May 2012 - 19:20

Well, for starters a 33 point deficit might explain a bit because afterall, it's the points that matter.


Yeah, because the difference between Vettel and Webber in 2010 was just those 14 points and Webber was clearly ahead of Vettel for most of the season.

Do you even know how ridiculous that argument is?

Edited by Pamphlet, 10 May 2012 - 19:20.


#19306 Pamphlet

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Posted 10 May 2012 - 19:24

While I can agree with you, it is def not true he had nowhere else to go. If he wanted to, he could have done so. But Ferrari made it worthwhile for him, and he chose the private jet over his own honor. So whatever he says now has a bad smell to it for me. But this is so very dusty now. He was made over and over by MS, he was just not up to it. NR, for instance, I can see him shrug, smile, and step out the door for good if it would have happened to him.


If he had any other options he wouldn't have moved to goddamn Honda in 2006.

#19307 Szoelloe

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Posted 10 May 2012 - 19:28

If he had any other options he wouldn't have moved to goddamn Honda in 2006.


Again, at Honda he was one of the best payed drivers on the grid. Years later.


......sorry fro the off, not the RB thread.

Edited by Szoelloe, 10 May 2012 - 19:29.


#19308 jj2728

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Posted 10 May 2012 - 20:09

Yeah, because the difference between Vettel and Webber in 2010 was just those 14 points and Webber was clearly ahead of Vettel for most of the season.

Do you even know how ridiculous that argument is?


Uhm, as far as I know at the end of the season Vettel was the WDC and Webber was not, correct? Makes no difference if Webber was ahead of him most of the season. Was Webber beating him? Yes, but did he beat him for the WDC? Nope.
Sooo, at this point in the season Rosberg has a 33 point lead over Schumacher. Schumacher's had a run of bad luck, but that doesn't detract from the fact that Rosberg is beating him on points currently and as I've said, it's the points that matter. If at the end of the season Schumacher has a better points tally than Rosberg, then I'll say that in 2012 Michael beat Nico. Doesn't take a brain surgeon to figure that one out......soooo, what's so ridiculous about that?

#19309 exmayol

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Posted 10 May 2012 - 23:04

Sooo, at this point in the season Rosberg has a 33 point lead over Schumacher. Schumacher's had a run of bad luck, but that doesn't detract from the fact that Rosberg is beating him on points currently and as I've said, it's the points that matter. If at the end of the season Schumacher has a better points tally than Rosberg, then I'll say that in 2012 Michael beat Nico. Doesn't take a brain surgeon to figure that one out......soooo, what's so ridiculous about that?


If you compare relative performance by points alone then every A vs B thread should go. You know very well that point deficit this year is not driven by NR performance but rather by factors outside of MS control.

#19310 halifaxf1fan

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Posted 10 May 2012 - 23:08

Yes its a diversion not to remind everyone how his DRS did not work in Bahrain Q, how his wheel almost fell off in China and how his gearbox glitched out in Australia. Also a diversion from the fact that without that win and 25 extra points NR would have had 3 weekends out of 4 beaten by a 43 year old dude...



I do think it is meant to divert attention, not from his driving which hasn't been bad, but from his situation. His situation being that he has only collected two points so far, his teammate has won a race, and there is Raikkonen back just a few races after two years away and already doing better than Schumacher in his third season back.

Picking a 'noble' fight with Pirelli gives him something to talk to the press about other than his troubles. Good strategy if you are the type to worry about your image.



#19311 Dunder

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Posted 10 May 2012 - 23:19

did you guys saw what Barrichello is now saying about the 2002 Austrian GP when he was forced to let MS win ?

What a gigantic loser, POS. I mean, I don't get it when drivers fail to understand they are just not up there when it's so hugely obvious. What he is doing now is just an insult to sportsmanship and himself.


The "insult to sportsmanship" was 100% Ferrari's. What Barrichello is now saying is merely an attempt at insulting everyone's intelligence.
He hung around for another 3 and half years after that afternoon.

Edited by Dunder, 10 May 2012 - 23:37.


#19312 jj2728

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Posted 11 May 2012 - 00:13

If you compare relative performance by points alone then every A vs B thread should go. You know very well that point deficit this year is not driven by NR performance but rather by factors outside of MS control.


This isn't the A vs. B thread, we already have a few of those. Someone wanted an explanation as to how Schumacher was being beaten by Rosberg and I stated that looking at the current points tally might give that person an idea. Schumacher's had a run of bad luck. That happens in racing. Schumacher's bad luck has contributed to the points differential. But Rosberg's been driving pretty damn well and to say that Nico's performance has little or nothing to DO with that point differential is being a bit naive.

#19313 Raelene

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Posted 11 May 2012 - 00:56

I think it's naive to think that given how MSC has raced and qualified this year, that his problems (none of them his own fault) has little or nothing to do with the point differential. I think MSC has driven great this year...

#19314 Raelene

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Posted 11 May 2012 - 01:01

I cant possibly remember the event from so far back but i would take DC's word for it, afterall he has admitted guilt years after and he had no reason to come forward


One focused on doing it in a fair and sporting manner


You need to run it past me how you know for a fact that Schumacher would have beat Rosberg last time out



why the hell are you discussing/debating something you can't possibly remember then!!!!



#19315 Raelene

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Posted 11 May 2012 - 01:52

So Alonso said in the press conference that he agrees with what Michael said about the tyres...so will all the Alonso fans now say that Alonso is making excuses?

jj2728 - i was making a general statement to those that say MSC's complaints about Pirelli are an excuse for his lack of results (in answer to your deleted post)

Edited by Raelene, 11 May 2012 - 01:52.


#19316 ali_M

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Posted 11 May 2012 - 02:26

So Alonso said in the press conference that he agrees with what Michael said about the tyres...so will all the Alonso fans now say that Alonso is making excuses?

jj2728 - i was making a general statement to those that say MSC's complaints about Pirelli are an excuse for his lack of results (in answer to your deleted post)


He said he didn't see anything wrong with what Michael said. I interpreted that he saw Michael's comments as reasonable and not to be thrown aside as invalid. This doesn't mean that he actually agrees with them.

Vettel, in a round about way, was actually also acknowledging that Michael's comments are valid. He compared the flat out racing of 2009 to now where it's a lot more pacing over a distance with quite frequent big enough differences in tyre performance between cars to allow for overtaking. He pointed out the difference between the worlds of the driver and that of the spectator. He made no claim as to which is more important. He simply explained how both POV's exist for real reasons and not simple whining. He's basically fencing on the issue as Fernando did in a much more succinct fashion.

It's really important to watch/read these interviews. Watching is even better since the body language etc. can be quite revealing. They don't act very well and their ambivalence often leaks through quite dramatically at times.

#19317 Dunder

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Posted 11 May 2012 - 03:26

So Alonso said in the press conference that he agrees with what Michael said about the tyres...so will all the Alonso fans now say that Alonso is making excuses?

jj2728 - i was making a general statement to those that say MSC's complaints about Pirelli are an excuse for his lack of results (in answer to your deleted post)


LOL.
That is not at all what Alonso said.

All he said was.

Q. Fernando…

FA: I don't know. I agree with Seb but I don't agree that Michael has continually criticised Pirelli. Michael said one thing and what has been written in the press has maybe exaggerated what he said. I read what he said and I don't see any big problem with that.


#19318 Raelene

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Posted 11 May 2012 - 04:11

Ali

I watched it - which is why I made the comment

to be faire "whebn he said "I read what he said" it sounded like "I agreed what he said" - so I listened again. What he said to me implies he agrees - no where did he say he didn't agree...

#19319 ivand911

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Posted 11 May 2012 - 06:39

I do think it is meant to divert attention, not from his driving which hasn't been bad, but from his situation. His situation being that he has only collected two points so far, his teammate has won a race, and there is Raikkonen back just a few races after two years away and already doing better than Schumacher in his third season back.

Picking a 'noble' fight with Pirelli gives him something to talk to the press about other than his troubles. Good strategy if you are the type to worry about your image.

I really don't like when people come here, not knowing what they are talking about.
About Kimi, MS never had such good car as Lotus 2012. Also Kimi said , it is easier when you come back with good car.
http://en.espnf1.com...tory/74920.html
But, this guys still come here talking BS. I would love to see Kimi in W01, then we could talk. Now the rookie is almost as good as Kimi in E20.


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#19320 aditya-now

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Posted 11 May 2012 - 12:08

I think it's naive to think that given how MSC has raced and qualified this year, that his problems (none of them his own fault) has little or nothing to do with the point differential. I think MSC has driven great this year...


Yes, MSC has driven great this year, and his points do not account for it. Luck favors the....

Meanwhile, Lewis Hamilton has given an interesting perspective on how to deal with tires:


Interessanterweise differenziert Hamilton beim Thema Reifen: "Meinen Spaß habe ich in der Qualifikation. Das Rennen ist ein ganz anderer Wettbewerb. Da muss ich die Balance zwischen Attacke und Defensive finden. Der Schlüssel ist ganz klar, die Reifen am Leben zu halten. Ich habe damit kein Problem."

Laut Hamilton spielt der Fahrer in der Disziplin "Fahren wie auf rohen Eiern" die entscheidende Rolle. "Das Verhältnis Fahrer zum Auto und dem Setup liegt bei 60 zu 40. Natürlich fällt es mir schwer, mit einem übersteuernden Auto die Hinterreifen zu schonen. Aber der Fahrer hat einen rechten Fuß. Und der kann die Reifen am meisten zerstören."


(Taken from AMuS http://www.auto-moto...n-4918305.html)


Lewis Hamilton: "I have my fun in qualifying. The race is an altogether different competition. There I must find a balance between attack and defense. The key is quite clear, to keep the tires alive. I have no problem with that."....
"The relationship between driver to car and to set up is at 60 to 40. Of course it is difficult to preserve the rear tires with an oversteering car. But the driver has a right foot. And it can destroy the tire the most."

Interesting, I would say - hotshot Lewis has wisened up, while Michael still laments. Yes, it is the right foot of the driver that in the end destroys the tire or keeps it alive. For that matter, please also have a look into the "Windsor on Villeneuve" thread, where Mark Hughes brings up interesting points about preserving tires while still driving as hot as Villeneuve did.

Schumacher obviously is not in agreement, he wants tires tailored to his needs, as he was used to for many years.

#19321 MightyMoose

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Posted 11 May 2012 - 12:15

Aditya-now, you were doing pretty well until you had to go in on the very last line and spoil it!

Tell me, where has MS told Pirelli he wants tires specced to HIS specific requirements?

He hasn't has he? So you just posted that line to have a bash at him.

It's a spec tire series, if Pirelli produce tires that can be "raced hard' for 15 laps, it WILL be the same for all drivers, depending upon their skill & their car. THAT is the crux of what MS said he wants them to do and it's a light year away from what you consistently & incorrectly would like people here to believe.


#19322 Massa_f1

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Posted 11 May 2012 - 12:21

Aditya-now, you were doing pretty well until you had to go in on the very last line and spoil it!

Tell me, where has MS told Pirelli he wants tires specced to HIS specific requirements?

He hasn't has he? So you just posted that line to have a bash at him.

It's a spec tire series, if Pirelli produce tires that can be "raced hard' for 15 laps, it WILL be the same for all drivers, depending upon their skill & their car. THAT is the crux of what MS said he wants them to do and it's a light year away from what you consistently & incorrectly would like people here to believe.


People just like and enjoy to assume he wants the Birdgestones back. Yet the these words have never been spoken by Schumacher himself.

#19323 aditya-now

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Posted 11 May 2012 - 12:37

Aditya-now, you were doing pretty well until you had to go in on the very last line and spoil it!

Tell me, where has MS told Pirelli he wants tires specced to HIS specific requirements?

He hasn't has he? So you just posted that line to have a bash at him.

It's a spec tire series, if Pirelli produce tires that can be "raced hard' for 15 laps, it WILL be the same for all drivers, depending upon their skill & their car. THAT is the crux of what MS said he wants them to do and it's a light year away from what you consistently & incorrectly would like people here to believe.


MightyMoose, thanks for giving me at least once the chance for having a cultured discussion with you.
I think that everyone in the paddock is aware of the fact that Michael had his tires tailored to him for
years (with the notable exception of 2005) and that now he has the same tires like everyone.

It is true that the line "he wants the tires tailored to his needs" is my assumption, for we do not know
what exactly was spoken in the Pirelli motorhome. In any case, a man of Schumi's stature exerted a
certain pressure on Pirelli, which is notable.

Also notable, how other drivers do not take the same line, and how especially Hamilton has obviously
changed his course this year, and his WDC standings show for it, no matter what they did to him during
the pit stops.

High regards to Lewis for his words, and still amazement at Michael Schumacher. It's the same rules for everyone, and it's the same tires for everyone. How some adapt and get on with it without lamenting is what makes the difference.

Is this bashing in your eyes?

It's a spec tire series, if Pirelli produce tires that can be "raced hard' for 15 laps, it WILL be the same for all drivers, depending upon their skill & their car. THAT is the crux of what MS said he wants them to do....


Tell me, where has MS spoken the above lines? This is how you interpret it ("the crux of what MS said") and you tend to deny me my right to make my own observations reading between the lines of what Schumi is really saying.

Edited by aditya-now, 11 May 2012 - 12:43.


#19324 Goron3

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Posted 11 May 2012 - 12:50

LOL.
That is not at all what Alonso said.

All he said was.

Q. Fernando…

FA: I don't know. I agree with Seb but I don't agree that Michael has continually criticised Pirelli. Michael said one thing and what has been written in the press has maybe exaggerated what he said. I read what he said and I don't see any big problem with that.


There's no need to say 'LOL that's not what he said', if you actually listen to the PC you'll see fernando's accent makes it very difficult to tell if he says 'I read' or 'I agree', though from my spanish speaking experience it sounds as if he does say 'agree' (minimalistic pronunciation of the 'a').

Either way, it's very clear the teams and drivers have been told what they can and can't say. Remember Pirelli only agreed to make these tyres on the basis that they would never be criticised.

#19325 MightyMoose

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Posted 11 May 2012 - 12:53

MightyMoose, thanks for giving me at least once the chance for having a cultured discussion with you.
I think that everyone in the paddock is aware of the fact that Michael had his tires tailored to him for
years (with the notable exception of 2005) and that now he has the same tires like everyone.

It is true that the line "he wants the tires tailored to his needs" is my assumption, for we do not know
what exactly was spoken in the Pirelli motorhome. In any case, a man of Schumi's stature exerted a
certain pressure on Pirelli, which is notable.

Also notable, how other drivers do not take the same line, and how especially Hamilton has obviously
changed his course this year, and his WDC standings show for it, no matter what they did to him during
the pit stops.

High regards to Lewis for his words, and still amazement at Michael Schumacher. It's the same rules for everyone, and it's the same tires for everyone. How some adapt and get on with it without lamenting is what makes the difference.

Is this bashing in your eyes?


Lol, it's a very single minded viewpoint that I don't feel shows the whole story.

In light of this statement by you :"It's the same rules for everyone, and it's the same tires for everyone" Again I say to you, MS WANTS tires that enable ALL drivers to push longer. Now if MS isn't the fastest driver under those circumstances, so be it.

You don't know how many drivers have taken the same line on the tires. We only know of 1 who has gone public that the tires need to be babied rather than allow a driver to push to his & the car's limit. However, what we do know is that many drivers have hinted that tire conservation has often been the focal point of the race for them (NR didn't push at all in China?). For various reasons, SOME of which will be they are entirely happy with their performance, drivers are keeping their true feelings to themselves.

When a respected commentator says "a champion and a multiple winner have both slated the pirellis to me, off the record" then you know that MS isn't the ONLY driver who isn't happy, but because he's big enough & brave enough to say it publicly, he's opened himself up for criticism by those for whom he can do no right.

Agenda's: Everyone has them, it's understanding whose agenda is currently up for discussion that allows people to see beyond just what they want to hear.


#19326 ali_M

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Posted 11 May 2012 - 12:53

MightyMoose, thanks for giving me at least once the chance for having a cultured discussion with you.
I think that everyone in the paddock is aware of the fact that Michael had his tires tailored to him for
years (with the notable exception of 2005) and that now he has the same tires like everyone.

It is true that the line "he wants the tires tailored to his needs" is my assumption, for we do not know
what exactly was spoken in the Pirelli motorhome. In any case, a man of Schumi's stature exerted a
certain pressure on Pirelli, which is notable.

Also notable, how other drivers do not take the same line, and how especially Hamilton has obviously
changed his course this year, and his WDC standings show for it, no matter what they did to him during
the pit stops.

High regards to Lewis for his words, and still amazement at Michael Schumacher. It's the same rules for everyone, and it's the same tires for everyone. How some adapt and get on with it without lamenting is what makes the difference.

Is this bashing in your eyes?

Tell me, where has MS spoken the above lines? This is how you interpret it, and you deny me my right to make my own observations reading between the lines of what Schumi is really saying.


Michael's tyres being tailored to him for years was in the past. Leave the past alone especially since it's been so long ago. At the time, there was the opportunity for such an arrangement and any F1 team that could afford this for their driver would have jumped at it... plain and simple. We give tooooo much credit to what Michael did for himself while at Ferrari, as opposed to what Ferrari did for Michael and WHY they did what they did for him. We seem to have no interest in what McLaren or Renault or Williams did for their drivers in their glory years and the advantage said drivers enjoyed. It's just that Michael is the one who is the soulless, cheating driver who needs to be discredited from all angles possible. No? There's no integrity to be found in him, so any complaint or comment must be bathed in a cynical light... there must be some self-serving and underhanded reason for it, right?

Your bias on this issue is astonishing to behold and as you say, you certainly have a right to your views and to express them. Keep them coming!! :stoned:

Edited by ali_M, 11 May 2012 - 12:57.


#19327 aditya-now

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Posted 11 May 2012 - 13:58

Lol, it's a very single minded viewpoint that I don't feel shows the whole story.

In light of this statement by you :"It's the same rules for everyone, and it's the same tires for everyone" Again I say to you, MS WANTS tires that enable ALL drivers to push longer. Now if MS isn't the fastest driver under those circumstances, so be it.

You don't know how many drivers have taken the same line on the tires. We only know of 1 who has gone public that the tires need to be babied rather than allow a driver to push to his & the car's limit. However, what we do know is that many drivers have hinted that tire conservation has often been the focal point of the race for them (NR didn't push at all in China?). For various reasons, SOME of which will be they are entirely happy with their performance, drivers are keeping their true feelings to themselves.

When a respected commentator says "a champion and a multiple winner have both slated the pirellis to me, off the record" then you know that MS isn't the ONLY driver who isn't happy, but because he's big enough & brave enough to say it publicly, he's opened himself up for criticism by those for whom he can do no right.

Agenda's: Everyone has them, it's understanding whose agenda is currently up for discussion that allows people to see beyond just what they want to hear.


Good points, yet the line you take with "Again I say to you, MS WANTS tires that enable ALL drivers to push longer. Now if MS isn't the fastest driver under those circumstances, so be it." is quite amazing.

It is not up to Michael to make the rules but to the FIA. It is Michael's task to drive the cars within the regulations that are in power - whether they are in favor of his driving style or not. Same for everyone.

If anything, Michael should, as the senior driver of the field, rally the troops and sit together with all the drivers. Lauda did that, Pironi did that. Why go it alone and not together with the other drivers, if they all agree with Michael on his Pirelli stance?

And yes, everyone has an agenda. You, me, Lewis Hamilton, Michael Schumacher. I am simply happy that you allowed me to post this time and enjoy a cultured exchange.



#19328 Schumacher7

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Posted 11 May 2012 - 15:19

Good points, yet the line you take with "Again I say to you, MS WANTS tires that enable ALL drivers to push longer. Now if MS isn't the fastest driver under those circumstances, so be it." is quite amazing.

It is not up to Michael to make the rules but to the FIA. It is Michael's task to drive the cars within the regulations that are in power - whether they are in favor of his driving style or not. Same for everyone.

If anything, Michael should, as the senior driver of the field, rally the troops and sit together with all the drivers. Lauda did that, Pironi did that. Why go it alone and not together with the other drivers, if they all agree with Michael on his Pirelli stance?

And yes, everyone has an agenda. You, me, Lewis Hamilton, Michael Schumacher. I am simply happy that you allowed me to post this time and enjoy a cultured exchange.

So he's not allowed to say what he would like? Why not? He's not trying to make the rules, he made a comment which he's perfectly entitled to make that you've taken as "lamenting" when all he said was the tyres don't allow you to push as hard as you could with more durable tyres, which is a fact.

"I don't agree that Michael has continually criticised Pirelli. Michael said one thing and what has been written in the press has maybe exaggerated what he said." - Fernando Alonso

Edited by Schumacher7, 11 May 2012 - 15:30.


#19329 jbarokF1

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Posted 11 May 2012 - 15:37

Good points, yet the line you take with "Again I say to you, MS WANTS tires that enable ALL drivers to push longer. Now if MS isn't the fastest driver under those circumstances, so be it." is quite amazing.

It is not up to Michael to make the rules but to the FIA. It is Michael's task to drive the cars within the regulations that are in power - whether they are in favor of his driving style or not. Same for everyone.

If anything, Michael should, as the senior driver of the field, rally the troops and sit together with all the drivers. Lauda did that, Pironi did that. Why go it alone and not together with the other drivers, if they all agree with Michael on his Pirelli stance?

And yes, everyone has an agenda. You, me, Lewis Hamilton, Michael Schumacher. I am simply happy that you allowed me to post this time and enjoy a cultured exchange.


I agree...it's not MS's job to decide in behalf of ALL DRIVERS...only MS and maybe a few are complaining about the tyre's most of them just wants to get it on with them...there are 24 drivers on the grid not 2 or 3. If it's Kartikeyan who is complaining about the tyres, am sure nobody here will listen right?

#19330 aditya-now

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Posted 11 May 2012 - 15:41

So he's not allowed to say what he would like? Why not? He's not trying to make the rules, he made a comment which he's perfectly entitled to make that you've taken as "lamenting" when all he said was the tyres don't allow you to push as hard as you could with more durable tyres, which is a fact.

"I don't agree that Michael has continually criticised Pirelli. Michael said one thing and what has been written in the press has maybe exaggerated what he said." - Fernando Alonso


Obviously this quote of Alonso was taken before Michael confirmed his criticism earlier this week, and, according to AMuS, Michael also renewed his criticism today at Barcelona http://www.auto-moto...en-4918305.html

Today Michael said that he just wanted to liven up the discussion on tires. Well, to do that through the media can always lead to uncontrollable results, as he should know. The way that Lauda and Pironi chose many years ago shows much more style and also solidarity among the drivers, but maybe it is not the time and age anymore for such actions of all the drivers together. Or maybe Schumacher's voice is only one voice, and not all the others agree on the Pirellis.

However, it is quite interesting how Alonso has struck conciliatory notes in the last years, and how even Lewis Hamilton has shown a noticeable shift in his approach this year. They are becoming the elder statesmen of F1.

#19331 halifaxf1fan

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Posted 11 May 2012 - 15:42

I really don't like when people come here, not knowing what they are talking about.
About Kimi, MS never had such good car as Lotus 2012. Also Kimi said , it is easier when you come back with good car.
http://en.espnf1.com...tory/74920.html
But, this guys still come here talking BS. I would love to see Kimi in W01, then we could talk. Now the rookie is almost as good as Kimi in E20.


Cudos to Kimi for being gracious to Schumacher with his comments. Of course your comparison is a bit flawed as Schumacher has been beaten by Rosberg so far since his return. This is irregardless of how the car compared to other teams on the grid. Maybe Grosjean will prevail this year but so far Kimi looks like he is right back in the groove something that MS didn't appear to be able to do in his first two season back.

Seeing that you are so interested in Kimi's pov here is what he thinks about the Pirelli's:

What are your thoughts on the Pirelli tyres and the strategies needed for the best results?
KR: No matter what the tyres you always have to make a strategy to suit them best. The tyres are fine for me. For the strategy I work with my engineers and we make the best choices we can. Sometimes we get it right, like in Bahrain. Sometimes we get very close, like in Shanghai. After the race in China and after the qualifying in Bahrain, people probably started thinking that we are idiots and cannot do anything right. But we showed in the race why we did what we did. It was close already in China and this time our strategy paid back very nicely for us. It’s all part of racing and the same for everyone.

http://www.yallaf1.c...-we-are-idiots/

If Kimi can so quickly adapt after two years away what is Schumacher's problem? I think he needs to look at what he is doing on the track and perhaps adjust as the other drivers have done, even Hamilton has managed to adapt! The days of having the tires to 'scumacher' spec are long gone.

Also, the last thing imo that Schumacher needs is to be picking a fight, it is to distracting and will eventually effect his on track results. Come on Schumi just show us what you can do on the track and stop the pr campaigns.

ps. I was full of expectations that we would see Raikkonen and Schumacher battle it out in the same car, it would have been great. Schumacher though had other ideas and left Ferrari in 2006.

Edited by halifaxf1fan, 11 May 2012 - 16:09.


#19332 jbarokF1

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Posted 11 May 2012 - 15:45

Yes, MSC has driven great this year, and his points do not account for it. Luck favors the....

Meanwhile, Lewis Hamilton has given an interesting perspective on how to deal with tires:


Interessanterweise differenziert Hamilton beim Thema Reifen: "Meinen Spaß habe ich in der Qualifikation. Das Rennen ist ein ganz anderer Wettbewerb. Da muss ich die Balance zwischen Attacke und Defensive finden. Der Schlüssel ist ganz klar, die Reifen am Leben zu halten. Ich habe damit kein Problem."

Laut Hamilton spielt der Fahrer in der Disziplin "Fahren wie auf rohen Eiern" die entscheidende Rolle. "Das Verhältnis Fahrer zum Auto und dem Setup liegt bei 60 zu 40. Natürlich fällt es mir schwer, mit einem übersteuernden Auto die Hinterreifen zu schonen. Aber der Fahrer hat einen rechten Fuß. Und der kann die Reifen am meisten zerstören."


(Taken from AMuS http://www.auto-moto...n-4918305.html)


Lewis Hamilton: "I have my fun in qualifying. The race is an altogether different competition. There I must find a balance between attack and defense. The key is quite clear, to keep the tires alive. I have no problem with that."....
"The relationship between driver to car and to set up is at 60 to 40. Of course it is difficult to preserve the rear tires with an oversteering car. But the driver has a right foot. And it can destroy the tire the most."

Interesting, I would say - hotshot Lewis has wisened up, while Michael still laments. Yes, it is the right foot of the driver that in the end destroys the tire or keeps it alive. For that matter, please also have a look into the "Windsor on Villeneuve" thread, where Mark Hughes brings up interesting points about preserving tires while still driving as hot as Villeneuve did.

Schumacher obviously is not in agreement, he wants tires tailored to his needs, as he was used to for many years.



Hamilton is right...drivers wanted challenge so I think preserving the pirellis and understanding how you can make them work to your advantage is the key. The last few years, we are complaining because cars have been designed in such a way that the driver does not to do anything else but to drive them as fast as they could..not it's different and driver is now putting more input when driving and not just drive fast.

For me, this is a lot more interesting than before...forget about processional races..faster drivers stuck behind slower car and can not do anything to get pass..quali position almost always determine race results..and drivers with the fastest car is almost guaranteed to get pole and win.....

Edited by jbarokF1, 11 May 2012 - 15:53.


#19333 jbarokF1

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Posted 11 May 2012 - 15:52

So he's not allowed to say what he would like? Why not? He's not trying to make the rules, he made a comment which he's perfectly entitled to make that you've taken as "lamenting" when all he said was the tyres don't allow you to push as hard as you could with more durable tyres, which is a fact.

"I don't agree that Michael has continually criticised Pirelli. Michael said one thing and what has been written in the press has maybe exaggerated what he said." - Fernando Alonso


Come on...we are not stupid to believe that he's just simply voicing out his opinion..there is nothing wrong with that but there's no question that it's not only an opinion..it's clear that he wants the tyres to be changed. Otherwise, he would have expressed his opinion against the tyres and just get on with them like what other drivers are doing.

I think drivers like Button, etc did express some opinion about the tyres but they were not adamant about changing the tyres.

#19334 Dunder

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Posted 11 May 2012 - 15:59

There's no need to say 'LOL that's not what he said', if you actually listen to the PC you'll see fernando's accent makes it very difficult to tell if he says 'I read' or 'I agree', though from my spanish speaking experience it sounds as if he does say 'agree' (minimalistic pronunciation of the 'a').

Either way, it's very clear the teams and drivers have been told what they can and can't say. Remember Pirelli only agreed to make these tyres on the basis that they would never be criticised.


Personally, I think the LOL was quite appropriate.

Not necessarily at the post I quoted but at the 'linguistic gymnastics' that are being performed in this thread to paint a picture whereby every statement made by anyone is somehow interpreted as a) agreeing with what Schumacher said or b) being afraid of saying that they agree with Schumacher.

Your last sentence is a direct contradiction, is it not? Or is it just a case of Schumacher being 'brave' enough to say something other than he has been told?


#19335 jbarokF1

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Posted 11 May 2012 - 16:03

Aditya-now, you were doing pretty well until you had to go in on the very last line and spoil it!

Tell me, where has MS told Pirelli he wants tires specced to HIS specific requirements?

He hasn't has he? So you just posted that line to have a bash at him.

It's a spec tire series, if Pirelli produce tires that can be "raced hard' for 15 laps, it WILL be the same for all drivers, depending upon their skill & their car. THAT is the crux of what MS said he wants them to do and it's a light year away from what you consistently & incorrectly would like people here to believe.


When you are adamant in changing the tyres when everybody else do not really have problems with them..then you are asking for something that only you will benefit from.

#19336 mursuka80

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Posted 11 May 2012 - 16:05

I really don't like when people come here, not knowing what they are talking about.
About Kimi, MS never had such good car as Lotus 2012. Also Kimi said , it is easier when you come back with good car.
http://en.espnf1.com...tory/74920.html
But, this guys still come here talking BS. I would love to see Kimi in W01, then we could talk. Now the rookie is almost as good as Kimi in E20.


Still threatened by Kimis good comeback i see. You said it wasnt the case, but you`re posts tell a different story. MS is doing really well for 43 year old and all his fans should be proud. WDC was never going to be possible.

#19337 Schumacher7

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Posted 11 May 2012 - 16:26

When you are adamant in changing the tyres when everybody else do not really have problems with them..then you are asking for something that only you will benefit from.

Sorry I think I've missed something, was there another comment made today or something about this?

Otherwise, he would have expressed his opinion against the tyres and just get on with them like what other drivers are doing.

Well that's what he's doing surely? He's made a comment about them not allowing a driver to push 100% but he's not refusing to drive on them or anything silly.

#19338 ivand911

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Posted 11 May 2012 - 16:40

Still threatened by Kimis good comeback i see. You said it wasnt the case, but you`re posts tell a different story. MS is doing really well for 43 year old and all his fans should be proud. WDC was never going to be possible.

No, it was answer to another poster as you can see. Nobody can deny that E20 is very good car. Michael is still waiting to drive such a good car since his return.

If Kimi can so quickly adapt after two years away what is Schumacher's problem? I think he needs to look at what he is doing on the track and perhaps adjust as the other drivers have done, even Hamilton has managed to adapt! The days of having the tires to 'scumacher' spec are long gone.

You still don't get it, don't you. He didn't adapt to the tyres, his car is adapted to them. This is why tyres are fine for him. See today long stints. W03(this is Merc car this year) is not good with tyres, everyone know that. As I said Grosjean have to be as good as Kimi because he is adapting as good as him. Michael is adapting better than Nico in 2012. And Nico have many more seasons than RG. Also how old is Kimi? He for sure didn't enter F1 in 1991. But, I am sure with equal car he can fight Kimi. No problem.

Edited by ivand911, 11 May 2012 - 17:01.


#19339 aditya-now

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Posted 11 May 2012 - 17:01

Sorry I think I've missed something, was there another comment made today or something about this?


Well that's what he's doing surely? He's made a comment about them not allowing a driver to push 100% but he's not refusing to drive on them or anything silly.


Yes, you obviously missed something:

According to AMuS, Michael renewed his criticism today at Barcelona http://www.auto-moto...en-4918305.html

Michael said that he wanted to heat up the discussion on tires ("die Diskussion anschieben"). That was the third time in a row that Michael chose to focus on tires.

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#19340 ivand911

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Posted 11 May 2012 - 17:02

Yes, you obviously missed something:

According to AMuS, Michael renewed his criticism today at Barcelona http://www.auto-moto...en-4918305.html

Michael said that he wanted to heat up the discussion on tires ("die Diskussion anschieben"). That was the third time in a row that Michael chose to focus on tires.

Lets not turn this into Pirelli thread. Start such if you want.


#19341 jbarokF1

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Posted 11 May 2012 - 17:02

No, it was answer to another poster as you can see. Nobody can deny that E20 is very good car. Michael is still waiting to drive such a good car since his return.


Huh, waiting for a good car?

Mercedes - 1 win 1 pole
Lotus - 0 win 0 pole

So what car is MS waiting for?

#19342 ivand911

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Posted 11 May 2012 - 17:08

Huh, waiting for a good car?

Mercedes - 1 win 1 pole
Lotus - 0 win 0 pole

So what car is MS waiting for?

Lets not forget Ferrari? One lucky win doesn't make car good. Even Sauber almost won. Will you bet on Lotus win or MGP win on Sunday?

Edited by ivand911, 11 May 2012 - 17:09.


#19343 jbarokF1

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Posted 11 May 2012 - 17:12

Lets not forget Ferrari? One lucky win doesn't make car good. Even Sauber almost won. Will you bet on Lotus win or MGP win on Sunday?


So why did you conclude that E20 is a very good car and Mercedes is not?
When you can also say (by your analogy), Lotus' 2nd and 3rd in Bahrain does not make E20 a good car too..

It does not mean that if your favourite driver is not winning or not getting good results, the car is not good enough. Rosberg was able to get a pole and a win in a car that you consider is not a good car.

Edited by jbarokF1, 11 May 2012 - 17:15.


#19344 Sakae

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Posted 11 May 2012 - 17:17

Check front page of Autosport; in numerous articles drivers do dance around “challenging” tires. I think Michel perhaps had a point after all.

Edited by Sakae, 11 May 2012 - 17:18.


#19345 ivand911

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Posted 11 May 2012 - 17:17

So why did you conclude that E20 is a very good car and Mercedes is not?
When you can also say (by your analogy), Lotus' 2nd and 3rd in Bahrain does not make E20 a good car too..

Maybe because Lotus were better car in the majority of the races(bigger operating window), where W03 in only one. That is why? Is it so hard? Did you see today long runs?
Lets see if Rosberg will win again this year? If not? Are you F1 fan or just MS hater? You should be able to see which car is better.
My driver can't get good result with 3 tyres. Or without gearbox. Still the pace is very telling.

Edited by ivand911, 11 May 2012 - 17:21.


#19346 halifaxf1fan

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Posted 11 May 2012 - 17:19

No, it was answer to another poster as you can see. Nobody can deny that E20 is very good car. Michael is still waiting to drive such a good car since his return.


You still don't get it, don't you. He didn't adapt to the tyres, his car is adapted to them. This is why tyres are fine for him. See today long stints. W03(this is Merc car this year) is not good with tyres, everyone know that. As I said Grosjean have to be as good as Kimi because he is adapting as good as him. Michael is adapting better than Nico in 2012. And Nico have many more seasons than RG. Also how old is Kimi? He for sure didn't enter F1 in 1991. But, I am sure with equal car he can fight Kimi. No problem.



Even if he were driving 'such a good car' he would still have to beat his teammate which he hasn't proven in over 40 races back that he can.

You seem to think that it is entirely an issue with the car but I don't think it is so clear cut. The driver is a big part of the performance equation and especially so with a great like Schumacher who commands a big salary to do just that - maximize the on track performance. If the car is not fully adapted as you say then it is up to a driver such as Schumacher to adapt even more, that is what the team would expect. Do you think the team is perhaps squeezing MS to do just that and now Schumi is squirming and complaining to the press??

Also keep in mind that Rosberg won a race with that car with Pirelli's bolted on so they can't be that bad.

Edited by halifaxf1fan, 11 May 2012 - 17:29.


#19347 Afterburner

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Posted 11 May 2012 - 17:23

Even if he were driving 'such a good car' he would still have to beat his teammate which he hasn't proven in over 50 races back that he can.

"Over 50 races back"? Really? :stoned:

#19348 ivand911

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Posted 11 May 2012 - 17:28

Even if he were driving 'such a good car' he would still have to beat his teammate which he hasn't proven in over 50 races back that he can.

You seem to think that it is entirely an issue with the car but I don't think it is so clear cut. The driver is a big part of the performance equation and especially so with a great like Schumacher who commands a big salary to do just that - maximize the on track performance. If the car is not fully adapted as you say then it is up to a driver such as Schumacher to adapt even more, that is what the team would expect. Do you think the team is perhaps squeezing MS to do just that and now Schumi is squirming and complaining to the press??

Also keep in mind that Rosberg won a race with that car with Pirelli's bolted on so they can't be that bad.

I guess you missed 2011? MS was equal and better than Nico in many races.

I guess according to you car design have nothing to do with tyre performance? What you expect ,Michael to build better car than Bell? You think Lotus car is great with tyres because of Kimi? Maybe it is because of Romen? Your are talking about 7 WDC here, not some rookie. 7WDC, something that Kimi will never be. :lol:


#19349 jbarokF1

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Posted 11 May 2012 - 17:28

Maybe because Lotus were better car in the majority of the races(bigger operating window), where W03 in only one. That is why? Is it so hard? Did you see today long runs?
Lets see if Rosberg will win again this year? If not? Are you F1 fan or just MS hater? You should be able to see which car is better.
My driver can't get good result with 3 tyres. Or without gearbox. Still the pace is very telling.


I'll ask you the same thing...Are you an F1 fan or just a MS lover?

Did I see today's long runs??? well, it's just a free practice isn't it??

#19350 halifaxf1fan

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Posted 11 May 2012 - 17:29

"Over 50 races back"? Really? :stoned:


How do they say it?, '50 is the new 40'. Anyway sorry for the error.