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#1901 Dragonfly

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Posted 17 May 2010 - 12:09

That's because there is a very limited set of smilies :wave:

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#1902 BRK

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Posted 17 May 2010 - 12:13

I dunno what you are trying to prove with that weel known footage. All I see is Alonso reacting when he realizes MS is trying to overtake him. If he was racing properly there wouldn't even have been any space for MS to go alongside it would have been covered way before that point, as all of them do every lap of the race. That's why there is no overtaking into that corner, ever, you know.


The point is that Alonso hit the throttle at the exit of Rascasse-the moment they passed the SC line-not Noghes. Meaning the moment the track was clear and the race was green flagged both he and Schumacher were racing,continuing up to the start finish line. Therefore for the entire period that elapsed between the green flag and the end of the race he was racing,plain and simple. And this came at the end of a safety car period,with the field bunched up behind him-he had no time to shut the door on MS as he slid wide at the exit of Rascasse,the instant the race was back on. Just because he made a driver error doesn't mean you can claim he didn't have a chance to race properly.

With the 'reacting' bit I once again point out to you that if Alonso was reacting to MS attempting an overtake you're basically admitting he knew they were racing. If that was the case Alonso must have been lying after he race when he said he let MS through because he was sure of the penalty. Sliding twice in the space of two corners doesn't seem like a simple instinctive reaction to me,either.

#1903 cheapracer

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Posted 17 May 2010 - 13:02

THE TRUTH IS HERE......

Hey twisty. :wave:

It looked like a natural panic reflex from Alonso to my eyes.He wasn't expecting to be raced and when it happened he reacted on instinct.

I ask again. Will those who believe one F1 car can overtake another into that corner when all participants are racing please raise their hands?


You must be joking right?

How about the true story from Schumachers own car ......
http://v.youku.com/v...czNjI4OTAw.html

Alonso was fully on it and had a full wheelspin slide coming out of that corner, he couldn't get traction and MS could/did because Schumacher was smart enough to prepare for it, he heated his tyres like crazy and took an extreme line to prepare for it -



You know how hard it is to overtake in f1, there's no dirty air to worry about in a corner like rascasse, it's so slow, it's about tyres and temperatures, MS would of had to think about it, been on the radio, done his warm up the tyres thing, be ready for the last corner, and when it came to acceleration he did that well as well. The preparation and to execute it is what made it a great move. Now Alonso would look very embarrised to lose out here, I don't blame him and ferrari for trying to make it look like they weren't aware. It was a good cover up, do you remember how well Ferrari tried to cover up Schuey's qualifying foul at Monaco 2006, everyone was on his side at ferrari to the point you almost believed him, that's what's happening with Alonso and this overtake, , there's a chance to get points because the FIA race control didn't do their job properly.

It's funny, both alonso and schumacher at ferrari have started from the pitllane in the last 2 races, and on both weekends ferrari have supported them in their cover ups. They are win at all costs types. Alonso is too proud to admit the truth in this one, probabley never will, the same as Schumacher will keep his error at Monaco in 2006 to himself.

This is what happens when all talking is done on track between hungry competitors. The talking off the track doesn't always rlelate to what happened. Alonso is too proud to admit his sleeping at rascasse. Had Schumacher been caught out like this, and someone like Hamilton or Alonso passed him, imagine how embarrising that would be, that's what Alonso is trying to deter himself away from.



:up:



Sean, the above evidence validates your post.

Edited by cheapracer, 17 May 2010 - 13:12.


#1904 NightProwler

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Posted 17 May 2010 - 13:11

Alonso's Wheel spin proves nothing. Go back and look at the race.

Hamilton does the same wheelspin on lap 77

Massa does the same wheelspin on lap 78 as Alonso.

Only differnece was no one was up their arse trying an illegal pass.

#1905 Szoelloe

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Posted 17 May 2010 - 13:15

THE TRUTH IS HERE......



You must be joking right?

How about the true story from Schumachers own car ......
http://v.youku.com/v...czNjI4OTAw.html

Alonso was fully on it and had a full wheelspin slide coming out of that corner, he couldn't get traction and MS could/did because Schumacher was smart enough to prepare for it, he heated his tyres like crazy and took an extreme line to prepare for it -

Amen.

Penalty is a farce, but it was sure worth watching, it was beautiful. I fell off my chair laughing.






Sean, the above evidence validates your post.



#1906 cheapracer

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Posted 17 May 2010 - 13:17

Alonso's Wheel spin proves nothing. Go back and look at the race.

Hamilton does the same wheelspin on lap 77

Massa does the same wheelspin on lap 78 as Alonso.

Only differnece was no one was up their arse trying an illegal pass.


Why can't people stay on program? The Evidence supports the contention that Alonso was trying, not coasting and what happened to other people during the race is totally irrelevant to this situation.

If it was clearly an illegal pass this and thousands of other forums around the globe wouldn't be so hot on it would they now?

Gee whiz, a driver up someones ass trying to pass, just not sporting is it. You work for the FIA by chance?

Edited by cheapracer, 17 May 2010 - 13:18.


#1907 NightProwler

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Posted 17 May 2010 - 13:21

Why can't people stay on program? The Evidence supports the contention that Alonso was trying, not coasting and what happened to other people during the race is totally irrelevant to this situation.

If it was clearly an illegal pass this and thousands of other forums around the globe wouldn't be so hot on it would they now?

Gee whiz, a driver up someones ass trying to pass, just not sporting is it. You work for the FIA by chance?



So Hamilton was racing Alonso behind him on lap 77 under SC conditions??? He had the same wheelspin out of that corner.

What does this evidence support??

#1908 le chat noir

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Posted 17 May 2010 - 13:23

I ask again. Will those who believe one F1 car can overtake another into that corner when all participants are racing please raise their hands?


ms68p thought he could pass 2 in 2005 (?) but he only managed the one.

#1909 FrancoDeBoss

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Posted 17 May 2010 - 13:32

But I think Alonso's tyres were in the worst shape.


Cooper


Well yes Mr Brain surgeon. He had been on them for 76 laps.



#1910 cheapracer

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Posted 17 May 2010 - 13:35

So Hamilton was racing Alonso behind him on lap 77 under SC conditions??? He had the same wheelspin out of that corner.

What does this evidence support??


It was Massa but thats a minor detail.

Hamilton was practicing for the all important restart, just proves the point.

Obviously proves nothing to your one eye.

#1911 cheapracer

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Posted 17 May 2010 - 13:39

Well yes Mr Brain surgeon. He had been on them for 76 laps.


I think Brain Surgeon is a little stiff considering a few teams reported their tyres were in great shape and one team even clearly said "ZERO dedegration" late in the race.

Theres a clear case from MS's incar that Alonso did nothing to warm his tyres leading up to the restart yet MS worked his own very hard and reaped the benefit of that work.


#1912 NightProwler

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Posted 17 May 2010 - 13:42

It was Massa but thats a minor detail.

Hamilton was practicing for the all important restart, just proves the point.

Obviously proves nothing to your one eye.



Yeh... ah no..... Alonso was behind Hamilton when Hammy did the wheelspin.

Ill say it again..... Massa did the same thing on the last lap as Alonso, Massive wheelspin out of rascasse.

Apparently acording to you, Alonso's wheelspin was in response to Schumacher. Massa did the same thing with no one near him, what was he responding to.


The fact is you know shit. Take a good look at the replay of Massa from YOUR one eye.



#1913 qvn

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Posted 17 May 2010 - 14:07

So Alonso claimed that he let MS pass because he knew MS would get penalty. Why oh why he quickly blocked NR right after MS passed him? Is he 'kind' toward NR and Merc :lol:, or just a liar?

#1914 BRK

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Posted 17 May 2010 - 14:13

So Massa,Hamilton and the rest of them also got it completely out of shape at the last corner as well,behind the SC? I think not. :lol:

I say it again: if Alonso wasn't racing MS he would not have been on it the moment they crossed the SC line,out of Rascasse. You wouldn't make the same mistake twice in the space of two corners if you were merely trying to warm your tyres (like FM and LH were during the SC period),or if this was an instinctive reaction. He knew they were racing and messed up. Ferrari probably told him overtaking wasn't allowed before they reached Rascasse,then he saw the greens and realized he had to close the door-went badly wrong and MS muscled his way through.

Teffy fans simply can't admit he screwed up. No big deal,though,everybody else seems agreed on this-I'd just let their opinions slide. Don't count for a lot anyway. :)



#1915 BRK

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Posted 17 May 2010 - 14:16

So Alonso claimed that he let MS pass because he knew MS would get penalty. Why oh why he quickly blocked NR right after MS passed him? Is he 'kind' toward NR and Merc :lol:, or just a liar?


That's the thing,isn't it-he seems to switch sides from offense to defense in the blink of an eye,when it's gone wrong for him. We know he's a bit insecure so that might explain it,though.

#1916 J2NH

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Posted 17 May 2010 - 14:16

I think Brain Surgeon is a little stiff considering a few teams reported their tyres were in great shape and one team even clearly said "ZERO dedegration" late in the race.

Theres a clear case from MS's incar that Alonso did nothing to warm his tyres leading up to the restart yet MS worked his own very hard and reaped the benefit of that work.


Excellent couple of posts cheapracer and I agree. MS caught FA napping and pulled off the pass. Telling how MS warmed his tires and FA did nothing to prepare. FA got lulled into complacency and MS capitalized. I suspect Mercedes will win the appeal.


#1917 JPW

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Posted 17 May 2010 - 14:19

I say it again: ....................

Well that's a bit of the problem with this "discussion", it has been dumbed down to 2 sides just repeating their opinion over and over again.
Very tiresome............

#1918 NightProwler

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Posted 17 May 2010 - 14:23

So Massa,Hamilton and the rest of them also got it completely out of shape at the last corner as well,behind the SC? I think not. :lol:

\



Massa did it at exactly the same corner on exactly the same lap. You may think not but its true.

You take the wheelspin as a fact that Alonso was racing Schumacher. But then you say in Massa's case he was only warming his tyres.

Thats what i object to.

#1919 Jomyboy

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Posted 17 May 2010 - 14:23

Well that's a bit of the problem with this "discussion", it has been dumbed down to 2 sides just repeating their opinion over and over again.
Very tiresome............


I wonder how many more pages before we have a decisive victor. Once the FIA come out with their decision, expect another 100 pages to follow ;)

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#1920 BRK

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Posted 17 May 2010 - 14:29

Massa did it at exactly the same corner on exactly the same lap. You may think not but its true.

You take the wheelspin as a fact that Alonso was racing Schumacher. But then you say in Massa's case he was only warming his tyres.

Thats what i object to.


Yes,he did,and why do you assume this was not in response to the green flag? They're F1 drivers,you'd go for it the moment you know you're back racing-further proof,if anything,that most drivers had noticed the greens. In case you missed it Sebastian Vettel was also back up to speed within seconds.

The laps I was referring to in that post were the ones during the SC period,before lap 78,when none of them were as aggressive through the final corner.

#1921 Gilles4Ever

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Posted 17 May 2010 - 14:36

Please discuss the topic and not other posters or fans and no personal attacks please.

#1922 BRK

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Posted 17 May 2010 - 14:39

Well that's a bit of the problem with this "discussion", it has been dumbed down to 2 sides just repeating their opinion over and over again.
Very tiresome............


It's been made abundantly clear further up in the thread that Alonso was indeed racing MS so I'll stop at this.

#1923 man

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Posted 17 May 2010 - 14:59

Alonso was the man that shat on Schumachers reputation when he beat him in an inferior Renault in the noughties and he has again made Schumacher look silly at Monaco just as he did in 2006. If Schumacher can get his act together this season there are going to be some fireworks between these two later on.

#1924 One

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Posted 17 May 2010 - 15:03

Well as long as those fire triggers in racing manner it is no problem, more over we all want to see them racing. Good on them.

#1925 hansmann

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Posted 17 May 2010 - 15:10

Nothing to add that hasn't been said already, just one thing : I doubt the penalty wipes the grin off Michael's face . :p

#1926 Szoelloe

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Posted 17 May 2010 - 15:13

Alonso was the man that shat on Schumachers reputation when he beat him in an inferior Renault in the noughties and he has again made Schumacher look silly at Monaco just as he did in 2006. If Schumacher can get his act together this season there are going to be some fireworks between these two later on.



To me it sure seemed like it was FA who was made to look like a donkey. But yes, you are right this will make the season more spicy, because the sh@t has hit the fan between Ferrari and MGP. Good motivation. From here on, there will be an edge to every racing situation relating to these two. Bring it on.

ps: Dont't hand me this sh@t about the inferior Renault. It was not inferior.

Edited by Szoelloe, 17 May 2010 - 15:14.


#1927 qvn

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Posted 17 May 2010 - 15:21

Alonso was the man that shat on Schumachers reputation when he beat him in an inferior Renault in the noughties and he has again made Schumacher look silly at Monaco just as he did in 2006. If Schumacher can get his act together this season there are going to be some fireworks between these two later on.


"Alonso beat MS blah blah" doesn't make Alonso better, just same as "Alonso was beaten by a rookie in the same car" doesn't make Alonso worse as a driver.
So please don't bring it all the time. It is so boring.

#1928 Zoe

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Posted 17 May 2010 - 15:34

Excellent couple of posts cheapracer and I agree. MS caught FA napping and pulled off the pass. Telling how MS warmed his tires and FA did nothing to prepare. FA got lulled into complacency and MS capitalized. I suspect Mercedes will win the appeal.


I am afraid the appeal will be rejected.... at least the inconsistency in this year's stewarding would be consistent :rolleyes:

Zoe

#1929 z2z

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Posted 17 May 2010 - 15:36

Nothing to add that hasn't been said already, just one thing : I doubt the penalty wipes the grin off Michael's face . :p

Actually :lol: ..Its Win-Win for him, with most of f1 pundits expressing positive response about that cheeky move.

#1930 George Costanza

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Posted 17 May 2010 - 15:37

Alonso was the man that shat on Schumachers reputation when he beat him in an inferior Renault in the noughties and he has again made Schumacher look silly at Monaco just as he did in 2006. If Schumacher can get his act together this season there are going to be some fireworks between these two later on.



The Renault RS26 was a better car than the Ferrari F248.



#1931 Scotracer

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Posted 17 May 2010 - 15:43

The Renault RS26 was a better car than the Ferrari F248.


I didn't realise the engine made the entire car now.



#1932 Galko877

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Posted 17 May 2010 - 15:56

Whatever the outcome of the appeal is, I loved that last corner move by MS on FA! I personally don't believe FA let him through deliberately. He was just caught off-guard by the old fox. The good, old Schumacher is slowly coming back. :up:

Edited by Galko877, 17 May 2010 - 15:58.


#1933 cheapracer

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Posted 17 May 2010 - 16:03

Yeh... ah no..... Alonso was behind Hamilton when Hammy did the wheelspin.

Ill say it again..... Massa did the same thing on the last lap as Alonso, Massive wheelspin out of rascasse.

Apparently acording to you, Alonso's wheelspin was in response to Schumacher. Massa did the same thing with no one near him, what was he responding to.


The fact is you know shit. Take a good look at the replay of Massa from YOUR one eye.


I have lived in China now for 6 years and eat various types of chile on a daily basis, trust me, I know shit.





#1934 RSNS

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Posted 17 May 2010 - 16:38

Well, I'm a bit disappointed that even you seemingly feel the need to turn this obvious surprise trick into a great overtaking move.

So Alonso and (every other driver in fact) was perfectly fine negotiation those corners all weekend, regardless the state of their tyres, but in that last lap Alonso could only do it sideways? Come on!

The only reason he got out of shape was that he didn't enter the last corners racing, but only started to defend in the middle of it when he realized what MS was trying to do.

It's mindboggling how many people seem to suddenly believe there is a genuine overtaking opportunity into the last two corners of Monte Carlo.


This

#1935 RSNS

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Posted 17 May 2010 - 16:44

As you may remember, I was expecting Schumacher to do miracles. I understood I was wrong, and waited. But I still fail to see that Schumacher is, in any way, dominating Rosberg.

In fact, I began to compare Schumacher-Massa and Alonso-Massa.

I wonder. I do not expect Schumacher to fail, or to excel. Right now I am again just an observer wanting to know.

#1936 as65p

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Posted 17 May 2010 - 16:47

Alonso was fully on it and had a full wheelspin slide coming out of that corner, he couldn't get traction and MS could/did because Schumacher was smart enough to prepare for it, he heated his tyres like crazy and took an extreme line to prepare for it -


Well, exactly. MS prepared to race into that corner and Alonso didn't because he was told the racing was called off.

Thanks for proving my point so eloquently! :up:

#1937 qvn

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Posted 17 May 2010 - 17:14

Well, exactly. MS prepared to race into that corner and Alonso didn't because he was told the racing was called off.

Thanks for proving my point so eloquently! :up:


But why did he still try to block NR after that? Why didn't he just let NR to pass him?

Edited by qvn, 17 May 2010 - 17:23.


#1938 as65p

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Posted 17 May 2010 - 17:49

But why did he still try to block NR after that? Why didn't he just let NR to pass him?


:yawnface: Haven't I said it often enough?

From what I saw he was racing again as soon as he realized what MS was up to, a quite natural instinctive reaction from a racing driver. The point is that he was caught, no, not napping, but by surprise because he expected the race was over. So when he switched on again it was too late to approach the corner in racing style, which would have made any move impossible to begin with, be it from MS or any other driver.

Regardless the outcome of the appeal, this was essentially a team battle: one thought they could race the others not so. So whatever team is proved right might pad themselves on the back while the other should hide in shame. Driver skills, tactical or driving wise, don't even come into it, because this was evidently NOT a normal racing situation on equal grounds for all participants.

Edited by as65p, 17 May 2010 - 17:57.


#1939 Obi Offiah

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Posted 17 May 2010 - 17:52

:yawnface: Haven't I said it often enough?

From what I saw he was racing again as soon as he realized what MS was up to, a quite natural instinctive reaction from a racing driver. The point is that he was caught, no, not napping, but by surprise because he expected the race was over. So when he switched on again it was too late to approach the corner in racing style, which would have made any move impossible to begin with, be it from MS or any other driver.

Makes sense to me. :up:

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#1940 qvn

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Posted 17 May 2010 - 18:02

:yawnface: Haven't I said it often enough?

From what I saw he was racing again as soon as he realized what MS was up to, a quite natural instinctive reaction from a racing driver. The point is that he was caught, no, not napping, but by surprise because he expected the race was over. So when he switched on again it was too late to approach the corner in racing style, which would have made any move impossible to begin with, be it from MS or any other driver.

Regardless the outcome of the appeal, this was essentially a team battle: one thought they could race the others not so. So whatever team is proved right might pad themselves on the back while the other should hide in shame. Driver skills, tactical or driving wise, don't even come into it, because this was evidently NOT a normal racing situation on equal grounds for all participants.


Strange! If I were Alonso and I were told by the team that I don't need to race because it is over and the order would be kept I would let any other to pass me. Why bother to race if it is already over, and just let other to pass and be fined so that they will lose their points?

#1941 George Costanza

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Posted 17 May 2010 - 18:05

As you may remember, I was expecting Schumacher to do miracles. I understood I was wrong, and waited. But I still fail to see that Schumacher is, in any way, dominating Rosberg.

In fact, I began to compare Schumacher-Massa and Alonso-Massa.

I wonder. I do not expect Schumacher to fail, or to excel. Right now I am again just an observer wanting to know.


You need to understand this is not the vintage Schu that all of us are used to seeing.

More people better let go of that 2000 vintage otherwise they will be upset.



#1942 George Costanza

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Posted 17 May 2010 - 18:07

I didn't realise the engine made the entire car now.



My fault.

I apologzie.

#1943 qvn

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Posted 17 May 2010 - 18:14

As you may remember, I was expecting Schumacher to do miracles. I understood I was wrong, and waited. But I still fail to see that Schumacher is, in any way, dominating Rosberg.

In fact, I began to compare Schumacher-Massa and Alonso-Massa.

I wonder. I do not expect Schumacher to fail, or to excel. Right now I am again just an observer wanting to know.


If MS in SPAIN is not dominating Rosberg then I don't know what is. The long wheelbase chassis will be back next race and he will dominate again.

Edited by qvn, 17 May 2010 - 18:15.


#1944 as65p

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Posted 17 May 2010 - 18:20

Strange! If I were Alonso and I were told by the team that I don't need to race because it is over and the order would be kept I would let any other to pass me. Why bother to race if it is already over, and just let other to pass and be fined so that they will lose their points?


I guess you never raced yourself in any shape or form, then.

#1945 Jomyboy

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Posted 18 May 2010 - 06:30

Breaking News: FIA aint gonna reverse the penalty imposed on Schumacher due to fears that Alonso might get off his car on the start line at Turkey and lie down in front of Schumacher's car! heheheheh ;-)

#1946 Paul Prost

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Posted 18 May 2010 - 07:04

ps: Dont't hand me this sh@t about the inferior Renault. It was not inferior.

It was in the 2nd half of the season once they took the mass damper off.

#1947 Augurk

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Posted 18 May 2010 - 07:06

It was in the 2nd half of the season once they took the mass damper off.

It wasn't inferior, by far. It just lost its immediate advantage over Ferrari.

#1948 Zdeus

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Posted 18 May 2010 - 07:27

Irrespective of what the outcome is, what happened is only a net-positive for Michael.

a - His killer instinct is intact and I am relieved to see that.
b - His performance is getting only better and I see this as beating his team-mate twice - at the start and then towards the end.

Just my views...

#1949 Augurk

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Posted 18 May 2010 - 07:33

Irrespective of what the outcome is, what happened is only a net-positive for Michael.

a - His killer instinct is intact and I am relieved to see that.
b - His performance is getting only better and I see this as beating his team-mate twice - at the start and then towards the end.

Just my views...

Which is why Schumacher fans are no longer worried. At least I'm not.

#1950 Zdeus

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Posted 18 May 2010 - 07:38

Which is why Schumacher fans are no longer worried. At least I'm not.


Exactly - all of this thats happening around is just noise - filter it out and I see a very encouraging picture. For me it seems more certain now that Michael will beat Nico no doubt. That said, 2011 is the year I'm looking for as far as a Championship bid goes...