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Michael Schumacher (merged)


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#19501 DutchCruijff

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 12:45

I am not mad. What was that strategy? On soft after the pitstop?

Yeah, god knows what that was about too.

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#19502 Lelouch

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 12:45

I am not mad. What was that strategy? On soft after the pitstop?

And to be honest i thought that mercedes' strength was gonna be their pace on hards.

Edit: about the crash i don't understand who is to blame it was plain fail.

Edited by Lelouch, 13 May 2012 - 12:47.


#19503 sniper80

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 12:46

Schumi really lost it, it is sad...

#19504 ivand911

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 12:46

Schumi really lost it, it is sad...

:rotfl:


#19505 Ferrari_F1_fan_2001

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 12:47

2010-2012 wont define MS.

1991-2006 will define MS; 91 wins, 68 poles, 154 podiums and destroying the field.

Time to hang them up, you tried but you tried too hard and it didnt work out. Thanks for the memories Michael.

#19506 spacekid

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 12:49

Bruno Senna just said he knew he was braking early and didn't want Michael to hit him under braking...

...sooo he moved back in front of Michael in the braking zone? Odd strategy.

Michaels obvisouly very flustered, he seems to think Senna is driving a Caterham!

#19507 DutchCruijff

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 12:49

Senna putting forward an extremely convincing argument - "He umm...he ummm...he hit me."

Cool it, there is still 15 races left. He won't catch up with Rosberg in terms of points but his performances, when not impeded by the retardedness of other beings, have been good and on par.

Edited by DutchCruijff, 13 May 2012 - 12:51.


#19508 libano

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 12:49

MSC could have avoided this with a bit of patience. Such a good race up to that point, a shame.

#19509 dav115

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 12:51

2010-2012 wont define MS.

1991-2006 will define MS; 91 wins, 68 poles, 154 podiums and destroying the field.


Agreed. He could DNF every other race this season and he'll still be the greatest racing driver (if not sportsman) I've ever seen.


#19510 Ferrari_F1_fan_2001

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 12:51

MSC could have avoided this with a bit of patience. Such a good race up to that point, a shame.


This is just it, he doesn't have patience. We have seen it before with the other ex GP2 drivers.

#19511 Lelouch

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 12:52

MSC could have avoided this with a bit of patience. Such a good race up to that point, a shame.

I think that can be said for most of the accidents he has been involved in 2011 and 2012 and that disappoints me a bit. But ofc he is the racer and i am the spectator so i don't know how it is in there.

#19512 Atonal

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 12:52

And to be honest i thought that mercedes' strength was gonna be their pace on hards.

Edit: about the crash i don't understand who is to blame it was plain fail.


Exactly. All weekend, the free practices and the long runs Schumacher was easily half a second faster than Rosberg on the hard tyres. He was almost 6 tenth up on him in Q1 as well when they used the hard tyre.
I am sure that they had some valid reason for choosing this strategy with all the data that they have, but it still puzzles me. I don't know but in most cases I get the feeling that they run the same strategy for both drivers irrespective of their positions.

#19513 mkoscevic

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 12:53

MSC could have avoided this with a bit of patience. Such a good race up to that point, a shame.


False. Senna changed the line way too late. Senna knew Schumacher is coming with much higher speed and in the interview to the Sky his arguments were... well, hiding the fact that he changed the line too late and thus caused this incident.

#19514 Disgrace

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 12:54

Michael did the same to Kobayashi at Silverstone last year, just totally misjudged the speed differential when DRS/old tyres are at play. Senna did seem to move under braking but it was so minute that had Michael been clean up the inside, it would have seemed normal and nothing would have happened.

Interesting that he was so pissed though, he has taken misfortune well until now.

Edited by Disgrace, 13 May 2012 - 12:55.


#19515 Wade

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 12:54

Never thought it would all come down to this. Seriously.........

#19516 dav115

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 12:55

Michael did the same to Kobayashi at Silverstone last year, just totally misjudged the speed differential when DRS/old tyres are at play.

That was Michael's fault though as Koba didn't go for a split second change of line under braking.

#19517 DutchCruijff

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 12:56

Lol, patience? Grosjean was getting away and Vettel was closing in yet he was meant to tip-toe around for another lap behind a car on shredded tyres? Right...

#19518 spacekid

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 12:56

Oh well, never mind. Thats motor racing. Michael is still driving fine at the moment, and there's 15 races left to go this year.

The back luck run will end, and there are plenty more chances to put in some good drives in 2012. Hopefully the tyres will also settle down as the season goes on as well.

#19519 Paco

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 12:56

60% SHUMI 40% SENNA at fault.

I did find it weird how he was coming into the corner but at the same time, Shumi should have known after being behind him for a while and who it was that he was gonna break early.

Problem is, Michael had a brain fade and approach the corner with absolutely no clue where he was gonna put his car to get through the corner. It's almost as if he closed his eyes and hoped for the best.. what the hell..

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#19520 mkoscevic

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 12:57

Lol, patience? Grosjean was getting away and Vettel was closing in yet he was meant to tip-toe around for another lap behind a car on shredded tyres? Right...


Exactly.

#19521 PoliFanAthic

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 13:00

Maybe telemetry will say more than the images did. The gap to Senna seemed huge for quite a while and it then suddenly shrunk to nothing. Not a lot of weaving though, so I don't know.

From MSC's interview it seemed that he was a bit less convinced after seeing the images on TV, as it didn't appear as aggressive as he felt it was, but he stuck with his point of view. I just hope for no race compromising penalty in Monaco.

#19522 mkoscevic

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 13:01

Problem is, Michael had a brain fade and approach the corner with absolutely no clue where he was gonna put his car to get through the corner. It's almost as if he closed his eyes and hoped for the best.. what the hell..


Spend some more time following F1, as you clearly don't understand racing. Driver with 15+ full seasons behind him is "approaching corner without having a clue where he was going to put his car"... Case closed for you.



#19523 DutchCruijff

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 13:02



Brain fade? Approaching the corner it's quite clear that Senna is leaning towards the inside line, naturally Schumacher is going to take the left, but for some reason Senna halfheartedly jinks to the left.

#19524 Lelouch

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 13:02

Exactly.

I agree with that after all i was really like "come on Michael you need to pass him asap" but on the other hand i was worried that the outcome won't be bad. As i said i don't who is more at fault but imo Schumi didn't play his cards very well there. Funnily enough in Singapore too he had a car with shredded tires in front of him. But well.. that's how it is.. : /

Edit: thnx for the replay DutchCruijff hadn't seen that angle. That was gay from Senna.

Edited by Lelouch, 13 May 2012 - 13:05.


#19525 Disgrace

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 13:03

That was Michael's fault though as Koba didn't go for a split second change of line under braking.


He also did this to Perez in Singapore last year. Personally, I've always thought Schumacher's racing craft was suspect even in his first career so I'm not surprised by these antics although the view is probably a minority one at least in this thread.

Edited by Disgrace, 13 May 2012 - 13:04.


#19526 Lelouch

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 13:06

He also did this to Perez in Singapore last year. Personally, I've always thought Schumacher's racing craft was suspect even in his first career so I'm not surprised by these antics although the view is probably a minority one at least in this thread.

Ok but i hope you can see the problem with Senna's move.

#19527 Disgrace

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 13:09



Brain fade? Approaching the corner it's quite clear that Senna is leaning towards the inside line, naturally Schumacher is going to take the left, but for some reason Senna halfheartedly jinks to the left.


Now I've got it. Senna moved to the outside, expecting Schumacher to go up the inside like Grosjean did the previous lap as he explained. However, Schumacher had actually just committed to the outside but was spooked by Senna's supposedly evasive move, and went to the inside expecting Senna to return to the racing line which he ultimately had no intention to do.

It's a racing incident but Schumacher probably should not have committed to the outside, in Bruno's blind spot.

#19528 Paco

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 13:10

Spend some more time following F1, as you clearly don't understand racing. Driver with 15+ full seasons behind him is "approaching corner without having a clue where he was going to put his car"... Case closed for you.


:rotfl: 15+ full season means nothing if you're gonna come in that hot to slow corner behind a guy on old tires who's been struggling at every braking zone. Shumi has shown more bad judement in trying to get around slower cars in front then any other driver on the grid! Experience only counts if you gonna use your combined experience and sorry .. he hasn't been doing that the past 3 seasons. :rotfl:

Id like to see Schumi doing well but frankly... imagine the shit storm that would erupted if MS had been taken out like that from Senna....

#19529 Paco

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 13:14

Now I've got it. Senna moved to the outside, expecting Schumacher to go up the inside like Grosjean did the previous lap as he explained. However, Schumacher had actually just committed to the outside but was spooked by Senna's supposedly evasive move, and went to the inside expecting Senna to return to the racing line which he ultimately had no intention to do.

It's a racing incident but Schumacher probably should not have committed to the outside, in Bruno's blind spot.


:clap: Exactly.

#19530 Paco

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 13:15

Spend some more time following F1, as you clearly don't understand racing. Driver with 15+ full seasons behind him is "approaching corner without having a clue where he was going to put his car"... Case closed for you.


And what.. you've only been watching F1 for a couple of years :rotfl: Cased closed eh, good thing you're not a steward for the race today if you think MS used good judgement in that move and RUINED Senna's race because he came in hot without an effective strategy on how to get through the corner without destroying a competitor that was clearly infront and DID ABSOLUTELY NOTHING WRONG!

Even Schumi in his interview pretty much acknowledged that without fully admitting blame as to attempt and avoid a penalty at the next race that messed up the approach and corner.. which is pretty much a lock that he'll get a penality.

Racing incident YES.
Avoidable contact ABSOLUTELY.
Penalty YUP.

Edited by Paco, 13 May 2012 - 13:18.


#19531 Disgrace

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 13:15

Ok but i hope you can see the problem with Senna's move.


He spooked himself from taking the inside line, and had effectually conceded it to Schumacher who had actually committed to the outside which inadvertently caused the crash. The problem with his move was it's weak nature which caught Schumacher off guard who didn't leave margin for error. Hopefully we won't get any penalties.

Edited by Disgrace, 13 May 2012 - 13:16.


#19532 mkoscevic

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 13:16

15+ full season means nothing if you're gonna come in that hot to slow corner behind a guy on old tires who's been struggling at every braking zone.


You still don't get the point, which is that Senna suddenly changed the line way too late.

But it doesn't matter anyway. :up:

#19533 mkoscevic

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 13:19

Even Schumi in his interview pretty much acknowledged that without fully admitting blame as to attempt and avoid a penalty at the next race that messed up the approach and corner.


No, that's a lie.

#19534 Lelouch

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 13:19

He spooked himself from taking the inside line, and had effectually conceded it to Schumacher who had actually committed to the outside which inadvertently caused the crash. The problem with his move was it's weak nature which caught Schumacher off guard who didn't leave margin for error. Hopefully we won't get any penalties.

:up: he was at the center and he moved slightly to the right which provoked MSC's move to the left, then Senna went back to left and yes i would classify it as racing incident too. The problem is 5 ruined weekend for Schumi and his fans for whatever reason. : /

#19535 spacekid

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 13:19

He also did this to Perez in Singapore last year. Personally, I've always thought Schumacher's racing craft was suspect even in his first career so I'm not surprised by these antics although the view is probably a minority one at least in this thread.


I agree with you that Michaels certainly had more than his fair sure of suspect racing incidents in both of his careers. Some have been his fault, some have been probably the other drivers fault but resultant from Schumi being a very aggresive driver who wants to race and get by slower cars as soon as possible. Sometimes it works out for him and he looks like a great racer, sometimes not.

I agree with your above analysis, it was a misunderstanding between the drivers. Michael wanted Senna out of his way and was going to out race him around the outside. He wasnt expecting Senna to move around to 'make space' in the braking zone.

Michael could have been more cautious, but then he wouldn't be Michael!! As frustrating as it can be, I'm glad he's never changed that part of him :cool:

Edited by spacekid, 13 May 2012 - 13:20.


#19536 SeanValen

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 13:20



Brain fade? Approaching the corner it's quite clear that Senna is leaning towards the inside line, naturally Schumacher is going to take the left, but for some reason Senna halfheartedly jinks to the left.



Honestly did anyone think given how little overtaking was occuring at Spain, when Bruno was ahead of MS, did anyone think something was going to likely happen, I think Bruno Senna has been under pressure all weekend, his teamate is contending for the win, he's had a past encounter with MS at Briazil which was his fault, Senna Bruno is not his uncle and doesn't look like havnig the mentality for f1 main contentions. I wouldn't wanna be racing him and I think he's wasting that Williams seat.

Edited by SeanValen, 13 May 2012 - 13:20.


#19537 Paco

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 13:22



Brain fade? Approaching the corner it's quite clear that Senna is leaning towards the inside line, naturally Schumacher is going to take the left, but for some reason Senna halfheartedly jinks to the left.



All I see Senna giving him some room, Michael not committed and far back and Senna goes back to the racing line and takes the corner since Michael was so far back .. in the middle of the link not even on the brakes.

There was absolutely no way Michael was ever going to make the corner. :rolleyes:

#19538 stillOrange

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 13:23

You still don't get the point, which is that Senna suddenly changed the line way too late.

But it doesn't matter anyway. :up:

What do you mean by "too late"?
He can change it back to racing line whenever he wants as long as he leaves space for the attacking car. There was more than a car width on the outside.

#19539 Paco

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 13:24

Honestly did anyone think given how little overtaking was occuring at Spain, when Bruno was ahead of MS, did anyone think something was going to likely happen, I think Bruno Senna has been under pressure all weekend, his teamate is contending for the win, he's had a past encounter with MS at Briazil which was his fault, Senna Bruno is not his uncle and doesn't look like havnig the mentality for f1 main contentions. I wouldn't wanna be racing him and I think he's wasting that Williams seat.


Whatever the case is for Williams giving up the seat to him doesn't change the fact that when you're out there racing your fellow competitors, you know their tendancies, strengths, weaknesses and Michael used bad judgement .. period in this incident knowing full well who (team, driver, length of stint etc) was ahead and situation at hand.

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#19540 Tarzaan

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 13:25



Brain fade? Approaching the corner it's quite clear that Senna is leaning towards the inside line, naturally Schumacher is going to take the left, but for some reason Senna halfheartedly jinks to the left.



Hmm. After this video I say 100% Senna'a fault...

#19541 mkoscevic

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 13:26

He can change it back to racing line whenever he wants as long as he leaves space for the attacking car. There was more than a car width on the outside.


Go ask them if changing line under braking, especially under heavy braking like this is acceptable.

#19542 SeanValen

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 13:28

Whatever the case is for Williams giving up the seat to him doesn't change the fact that when you're out there racing your fellow competitors, you know their tendancies, strengths, weaknesses and Michael used bad judgement .. period in this incident knowing full well who (team, driver, length of stint etc) was ahead and situation at hand.




A driver under perssure is not too predictable. Bruno was hanging about as Martin Brundle menstioned Bruno's awareness of what lines he takes is important, I didn't see a driver racing, but somone who is half racing/half pretending to look like defensive racing.

#19543 MikeTekRacing

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 13:28

What do you mean by "too late"?
He can change it back to racing line whenever he wants as long as he leaves space for the attacking car. There was more than a car width on the outside.

at the moment he started to move (yes, so late) michael had to react as he had no clue where bruno would stop
that was the braking area, way too late to change your plans

did you actually drive at least..go karts?

#19544 Sakae

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 13:32

I can't believe what I see and that 2012 exists.

Edited by Sakae, 13 May 2012 - 13:33.


#19545 MightyMoose

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 13:38

Posts have been deleted.

If you don't post here regularly, and suddenly appear with just negative statements, you are trolling. Please do not do that.

Please talk about today, not about 1994, 1998, etc etc.

#19546 TailG

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 13:39

Heh, Schumacher gets some of his own medicine. Senna changed his line once and then returned to racing line. 100% legal.

#19547 mkoscevic

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 13:41

Heh, Schumacher gets some of his own medicine. Senna changed his line once and then returned to racing line. 100% legal.


Senna changed his line too late, under braking and caused an incident. Penalty for Senna.

#19548 Mr2s

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 13:42

Heh, Schumacher gets some of his own medicine. Senna changed his line once and then returned to racing line. 100% legal.


100 % Agree. saw it the first time, came here to read discussion, watched it again and again on youtube. No doubt in my mind this was an avoidable incident from the driver behind. Which will be the key to any investigation.

#19549 Mr2s

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 13:44

Senna changed his line too late, under braking and caused an incident. Penalty for Senna.


Senna made one clear move to the left, schumacher wasn't alongside. Unless they make up new rules, schumacher could have avoided this.

#19550 MikeTekRacing

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 13:48

Senna made one clear move to the left, schumacher wasn't alongside. Unless they make up new rules, schumacher could have avoided this.

it's about moving BACK in front of a car under braking, not about being alongside