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#19551 mkoscevic

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 13:19

Even Schumi in his interview pretty much acknowledged that without fully admitting blame as to attempt and avoid a penalty at the next race that messed up the approach and corner.


No, that's a lie.

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#19552 Lelouch

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 13:19

He spooked himself from taking the inside line, and had effectually conceded it to Schumacher who had actually committed to the outside which inadvertently caused the crash. The problem with his move was it's weak nature which caught Schumacher off guard who didn't leave margin for error. Hopefully we won't get any penalties.

:up: he was at the center and he moved slightly to the right which provoked MSC's move to the left, then Senna went back to left and yes i would classify it as racing incident too. The problem is 5 ruined weekend for Schumi and his fans for whatever reason. : /

#19553 spacekid

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 13:19

He also did this to Perez in Singapore last year. Personally, I've always thought Schumacher's racing craft was suspect even in his first career so I'm not surprised by these antics although the view is probably a minority one at least in this thread.


I agree with you that Michaels certainly had more than his fair sure of suspect racing incidents in both of his careers. Some have been his fault, some have been probably the other drivers fault but resultant from Schumi being a very aggresive driver who wants to race and get by slower cars as soon as possible. Sometimes it works out for him and he looks like a great racer, sometimes not.

I agree with your above analysis, it was a misunderstanding between the drivers. Michael wanted Senna out of his way and was going to out race him around the outside. He wasnt expecting Senna to move around to 'make space' in the braking zone.

Michael could have been more cautious, but then he wouldn't be Michael!! As frustrating as it can be, I'm glad he's never changed that part of him :cool:

Edited by spacekid, 13 May 2012 - 13:20.


#19554 SeanValen

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 13:20



Brain fade? Approaching the corner it's quite clear that Senna is leaning towards the inside line, naturally Schumacher is going to take the left, but for some reason Senna halfheartedly jinks to the left.



Honestly did anyone think given how little overtaking was occuring at Spain, when Bruno was ahead of MS, did anyone think something was going to likely happen, I think Bruno Senna has been under pressure all weekend, his teamate is contending for the win, he's had a past encounter with MS at Briazil which was his fault, Senna Bruno is not his uncle and doesn't look like havnig the mentality for f1 main contentions. I wouldn't wanna be racing him and I think he's wasting that Williams seat.

Edited by SeanValen, 13 May 2012 - 13:20.


#19555 Paco

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 13:22



Brain fade? Approaching the corner it's quite clear that Senna is leaning towards the inside line, naturally Schumacher is going to take the left, but for some reason Senna halfheartedly jinks to the left.



All I see Senna giving him some room, Michael not committed and far back and Senna goes back to the racing line and takes the corner since Michael was so far back .. in the middle of the link not even on the brakes.

There was absolutely no way Michael was ever going to make the corner. :rolleyes:

#19556 stillOrange

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 13:23

You still don't get the point, which is that Senna suddenly changed the line way too late.

But it doesn't matter anyway. :up:

What do you mean by "too late"?
He can change it back to racing line whenever he wants as long as he leaves space for the attacking car. There was more than a car width on the outside.

#19557 Paco

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 13:24

Honestly did anyone think given how little overtaking was occuring at Spain, when Bruno was ahead of MS, did anyone think something was going to likely happen, I think Bruno Senna has been under pressure all weekend, his teamate is contending for the win, he's had a past encounter with MS at Briazil which was his fault, Senna Bruno is not his uncle and doesn't look like havnig the mentality for f1 main contentions. I wouldn't wanna be racing him and I think he's wasting that Williams seat.


Whatever the case is for Williams giving up the seat to him doesn't change the fact that when you're out there racing your fellow competitors, you know their tendancies, strengths, weaknesses and Michael used bad judgement .. period in this incident knowing full well who (team, driver, length of stint etc) was ahead and situation at hand.

#19558 Tarzaan

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 13:25



Brain fade? Approaching the corner it's quite clear that Senna is leaning towards the inside line, naturally Schumacher is going to take the left, but for some reason Senna halfheartedly jinks to the left.



Hmm. After this video I say 100% Senna'a fault...

#19559 mkoscevic

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 13:26

He can change it back to racing line whenever he wants as long as he leaves space for the attacking car. There was more than a car width on the outside.


Go ask them if changing line under braking, especially under heavy braking like this is acceptable.

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#19560 SeanValen

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 13:28

Whatever the case is for Williams giving up the seat to him doesn't change the fact that when you're out there racing your fellow competitors, you know their tendancies, strengths, weaknesses and Michael used bad judgement .. period in this incident knowing full well who (team, driver, length of stint etc) was ahead and situation at hand.




A driver under perssure is not too predictable. Bruno was hanging about as Martin Brundle menstioned Bruno's awareness of what lines he takes is important, I didn't see a driver racing, but somone who is half racing/half pretending to look like defensive racing.

#19561 MikeTekRacing

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 13:28

What do you mean by "too late"?
He can change it back to racing line whenever he wants as long as he leaves space for the attacking car. There was more than a car width on the outside.

at the moment he started to move (yes, so late) michael had to react as he had no clue where bruno would stop
that was the braking area, way too late to change your plans

did you actually drive at least..go karts?

#19562 Sakae

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 13:32

I can't believe what I see and that 2012 exists.

Edited by Sakae, 13 May 2012 - 13:33.


#19563 MightyMoose

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 13:38

Posts have been deleted.

If you don't post here regularly, and suddenly appear with just negative statements, you are trolling. Please do not do that.

Please talk about today, not about 1994, 1998, etc etc.

#19564 TailG

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 13:39

Heh, Schumacher gets some of his own medicine. Senna changed his line once and then returned to racing line. 100% legal.

#19565 mkoscevic

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 13:41

Heh, Schumacher gets some of his own medicine. Senna changed his line once and then returned to racing line. 100% legal.


Senna changed his line too late, under braking and caused an incident. Penalty for Senna.

#19566 Mr2s

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 13:42

Heh, Schumacher gets some of his own medicine. Senna changed his line once and then returned to racing line. 100% legal.


100 % Agree. saw it the first time, came here to read discussion, watched it again and again on youtube. No doubt in my mind this was an avoidable incident from the driver behind. Which will be the key to any investigation.

#19567 Mr2s

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 13:44

Senna changed his line too late, under braking and caused an incident. Penalty for Senna.


Senna made one clear move to the left, schumacher wasn't alongside. Unless they make up new rules, schumacher could have avoided this.

#19568 MikeTekRacing

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 13:48

Senna made one clear move to the left, schumacher wasn't alongside. Unless they make up new rules, schumacher could have avoided this.

it's about moving BACK in front of a car under braking, not about being alongside

#19569 Urawa

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 13:48

fault, non-fault. This is the worst season ever for him, don't know how this will end


#19570 mkoscevic

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 13:50

Senna made one clear move to the left, schumacher wasn't alongside. Unless they make up new rules, schumacher could have avoided this.


It doesn't matter if Senna made that move and it doesn't matter if Schumacher wasn't alongside him. Point is that Senna made his move too late while driver behind him was coming at full DRS speed. You could say that Schumacher could have avoided it, but that argument is invalid because Schumacher was attacking for the position. While you are trying to overtake, you always have to rely on the another car in order to avoid the incident.

#19571 i.am.cloned

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 13:51

schumacher could have avoided this.

Unfortunately, I agree. This time it was Schumi's mistake :( Awfull season so far for him.


#19572 Mr2s

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 13:51

it's about moving BACK in front of a car under braking, not about being alongside


Schumacher in the quicker car into the corner had the whole inside line to go for once senna moved left, instead he ran straight into the back. Totally avoidable with the race craft he learnt in karting.

#19573 PoliFanAthic

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 13:52

fault, non-fault. This is the worst season ever for him, don't know how this will end


It's hard to believe that after five races with decent race pace and at least decent performances, all Michael has to show for it is two points.

#19574 Konsta

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 13:52

Michael did the same to Kobayashi at Silverstone last year, just totally misjudged the speed differential when DRS/old tyres are at play. Senna did seem to move under braking but it was so minute that had Michael been clean up the inside, it would have seemed normal and nothing would have happened.

Interesting that he was so pissed though, he has taken misfortune well until now.


That is the way I see it too. Bruno did move twice but his second movement was so slight that it did not make that big a difference. MS would have hit Senna no matter what - a poor(ish) judgment IMHO.

#19575 Paco

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 13:53

fault, non-fault. This is the worst season ever for him, don't know how this will end


Sadly I think with him retiring. Unfortunately, he's cost the team a lot of points and finishes last season and is well on his way of doing the same again this season. I hoped and really thought he would have got it together this year. I don't understand why he mentally isn't in it .. If there was one guy who I thought could even though he has nothing left to prove.. it was him but it definitely seems he's on his back foot now.

It's painful to watch the self destruction of him.. for every good result there is like 5 bad ones and attempts to justify all this bad on track judgements.

Edited by Paco, 13 May 2012 - 13:55.


#19576 Diablobb81

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 13:58

Sadly (or fortunately ) i only saw the first 2 laps. It started so good, again, for Michael. But no luck this season. It has to end at some time.

About the incident : the biggest factor was the difference in speed. Looks like a racing incident, but Senna did move twice under braking.

Edited by Diablobb81, 13 May 2012 - 14:01.


#19577 sharo

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 13:59

Although Senna's defense was clumsy Michael could handle the situation better and avoid it. Simply by accounting who's in front of him.
Racing incident, but Michael must keep more cool.

#19578 weston

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 13:59

I am happy for Williams and not shocked by what happened to Schumacher.
Schumi should have learnt from previous meeting with Bruno.

#19579 SeanValen

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 14:01

Sadly I think with him retiring. Unfortunately, he's cost the team a lot of points and finishes last season and is well on his way of doing the same again this season. I hoped and really thought he would have got it together this year. I don't understand why he mentally isn't in it .. If there was one guy who I thought could even though he has nothing left to prove.. it was him but it definitely seems he's on his back foot now.


Overaction comment

Overall the team has failed him more this season so far, this is the first actual racing incident of the season, and your mixing it with the pitstop wheel nut issue of Sepang, the merchanical DNF of Australia, the DRS failure of the wing in qualifying 1 at Bahrain was it, sent MS to the back of the grid.

But you go right ahead and pretend he's had a racing inciident every race of his life. :lol: :smoking:




Edited by SeanValen, 13 May 2012 - 14:04.


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#19580 Goron3

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 14:05

Heh, Schumacher gets some of his own medicine. Senna changed his line once and then returned to racing line. 100% legal.


3 moves, 1 of which is in the braking zone...you deem that legal? The fact that you show some bias in your first sentence inherently makes your post pointless.

But yes, it was avoidable and Michael should have handled it better but Senna really does lack race craft and he'll most likely be punished. His interview during the race showed he realised he can't really defend himself.

#19581 libano

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 14:07

Hmm. After this video I say 100% Senna'a fault...


exactly. now that i see it it's crystal clear.

#19582 Pamphlet

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 14:08

Yeah, I was wrong this time. 100% Bruno's fault.

#19583 aditya-now

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 14:10

5 races, 2 points.

Worse than 2010 or 2011!


Michael's season starts to look more and more like the lack lustre last season of David Coulthard. I am not judging if it's pure bad luck or something else - it just looks like his career is running out of steam.

#19584 weston

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 14:11

The crash was avoidable. For me it's Schumacher's fault.
B. Senna is not F1 material.

#19585 jj2728

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 14:11

This is it. I'm done with F1, this is sh!t.


Adios and don't let the door hit you on the ass on the way out. It's always funny to see the fair weather fans bail. Schumacher screwed the pooch on this one big time.

#19586 RedBaron

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 14:12

MSC could have avoided this with a bit of patience. Such a good race up to that point, a shame.



It was the opportunity to overtake especially with DRS too. If Senna hadn't been weaving Schumacher would have easily gone round the outside... so while you can claim patience would have been the key there, there was no need for patience. Schumacher had the move set up, he was set to brake later too, Senna weaved to close the door... Schumacher thought he'd have nowhere to go so he went to the right, but Senna braked even earlier and boom, that was the result.

#19587 sharo

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 14:12

Michael's season starts to look more and more like the lack lustre last season of David Coulthard. I am not judging if it's pure bad luck or something else - it just looks like his career is running out of steam.

How many times you gonna post one and the same? We all know your opinion Mr Nowotny.

Edited by sharo, 13 May 2012 - 14:13.


#19588 ivand911

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 14:15

Lets see what stewards will say. We saw what happen with Nico, so MS was at best 9th-10th or out of top10. Car have no pace. As I was been saying Williams is better that MGP.

Edited by ivand911, 13 May 2012 - 14:16.


#19589 Paco

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 14:19

sharo. Aditya-now is just stating again after another race that Shumi is still providing evidence to back his opinion. Yeah, broken record but the fat lady does seem to be signing quite loudly lately.

Edited by Paco, 13 May 2012 - 14:20.


#19590 Massa_f1

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 14:19

Can any of you other fellow Schumacher fans give me one good reason for him to continue? Been a fan of his since near the start of his f1 career and i can see not a single reason for him to continue.
Maybe am just a fan who has lost faith, but i can't see anything good coming out of this season.

I am very sad at this season. Worst ever in most likley his last season ever. Not the way i wanted him to go out.

Brazil 06 should of stayed his last race. :(

#19591 SeanValen

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 14:20

It was the opportunity to overtake especially with DRS too. If Senna hadn't been weaving Schumacher would have easily gone round the outside... so while you can claim patience would have been the key there, there was no need for patience. Schumacher had the move set up, he was set to brake later too, Senna weaved to close the door... Schumacher thought he'd have nowhere to go so he went to the right, but Senna braked even earlier and boom, that was the result.



100% the way I see it.

When you got someone like Bruno who clearly is now in a competitive car, there is nowhere to hide, his whole weekend/quali/race just a a driver who isn't meant to be there, anyohe who saw Brazil 2011, and saw the seeds of pressure/errors from Bruno in spain qualifying, should of placed a bet that a hard charging schumacher wasn't going to get by a driver who can't really race in these cars. And that's essentially Schumacher's frustration, he's been done twice by Bruno and it hasn't even been a full year between incidents

There' s a reason Schumacher and Hamilton went wheel to wheel without crashing at Monza 2011, they know the game, Alonso does, Vettel does, Kimi does. You can race with actual racers.

This was a difficult weekend for Mercedes, essentially qualifying high would of gotten them out of this midpack trouble, being in the midpack on a track like spain is no good. This is the first race perhaps where Mercedes hasn't looked great in qualifying and that essenitally played a part. Bruno is going to be a problem for other drivers if the williams stays competitive.


Edited by SeanValen, 13 May 2012 - 14:23.


#19592 KavB

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 14:22

So frustrating to see Michael only have 2 points with such a good car. Partly due to him, partly due to bad luck. His season is over as a title contender before it has even begun.

#19593 RedBaron

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 14:24

Calling for Schumacher to retire is silly.

He has been dreadfully unlucky so far this season. This is only the 5th race though. You guys are such Damon Hills, calling retire retire after every disappointing result.

#19594 Urawa

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 14:27

There was nothing wrong with him this season, even today is debatable. He needs that f*cking podium, which will hopefully stop the current streak.
This would surely give him a huge boost and could be the turnaround.

#19595 PoliFanAthic

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 14:27

I'd hardly say that his lack of points has a lot to do with his (lack) of quality. Even today's accident, while perhaps avoidable from in front of the TV, was anything but an example of wrong place, wrong time.

Regarding Massa_f1's question, I think my main regret is that he ended up at such a lackluster team. I'm not without hope and the season is long, but I'm not excited any more, that's for sure. We'll see if there will be any reason for him to continue as we progress through the year - clearly, now there is next to none, bar those promising qualifying sessions in the first few races.


#19596 spacekid

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 14:27

Can any of you other fellow Schumacher fans give me one good reason for him to continue? Been a fan of his since near the start of his f1 career and i can see not a single reason for him to continue.
Maybe am just a fan who has lost faith, but i can't see anything good coming out of this season.

I am very sad at this season. Worst ever in most likley his last season ever. Not the way i wanted him to go out.

Brazil 06 should of stayed his last race. :(


I can give you several, Brazil '06 being one. Or Monaco '06 (race), Spain '94, Hunary '98, Jerez '97 too unfortunately...

He's always been a fighter and never, ever wants to give up. He has lost some of his speed, but can still have good races.

#19597 libano

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 14:32

It was the opportunity to overtake especially with DRS too. If Senna hadn't been weaving Schumacher would have easily gone round the outside... so while you can claim patience would have been the key there, there was no need for patience. Schumacher had the move set up, he was set to brake later too, Senna weaved to close the door... Schumacher thought he'd have nowhere to go so he went to the right, but Senna braked even earlier and boom, that was the result.


i already revised my opinion after seeing that youtube clip. great passing opportunity gone tits up by a chain of unfortunate decisions. i think bruno was trying to get out of the way more than anything else. in any event, there should be no penalties for monaco for either driver.

#19598 ivand911

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 14:33

So frustrating to see Michael only have 2 points with such a good car. Partly due to him, partly due to bad luck. His season is over as a title contender before it has even begun.

Explain good car? The car I see have no pace? Nico was around 0,7-1 sec slower on average.


#19599 SeanValen

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 14:34

Calling for Schumacher to retire is silly.

He has been dreadfully unlucky so far this season. This is only the 5th race though. You guys are such Damon Hills, calling retire retire after every disappointing result.


:up:
I agree.

It's one of those things that you just have to see the season play out. Williams win this race, Mecedes doesn't look like the car in China- a race where MS was robbed of a podium at least due to a pitstop error, and some teams as MS pointed out have moved forward since testing.

This season is wide in terms of everyone maybe doing well, 5 winners from 5 different teams, no one is dominating yet.



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#19600 Massa_f1

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 14:34

I can give you several, Brazil '06 being one. Or Monaco '06 (race), Spain '94, Hunary '98, Jerez '97 too unfortunately...

He's always been a fighter and never, ever wants to give up. He has lost some of his speed, but can still have good races.



You list races from a different era. You will not get drives like that anymore from him or any other driver.