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#19701 sharo

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 18:14

You normally reach left to better position yourself for either defending for the next turn, or simply get a better entry to the turn they were braking for, not really rocket science, and not illegal considering Schumacher's position relative to himself.

In the braking zone?

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#19702 tifosiMac

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 18:15

Senna moved very little IMO. Schumacher didn't know which way to go, hesitated, and then collected Senna under braking. An amateur mistake by Michael IMO.

#19703 exmayol

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 18:15

Very disappointing outcome, not because of lost points but rather because the accident been totally avoidable. MS indeed has problems reading into the moves by Senna Jr / Perez / other clowns. Penalty was not necessary. Racing incident.

#19704 spinster

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 18:17

Very disappointing outcome, not because of lost points but rather because the accident been totally avoidable. MS indeed has problems reading into the moves by Senna Jr / Perez / other clowns. Penalty was not necessary. Racing incident.


perez a clown?

Time for MS to deliver instead of blaiming everyone or everything (tyres)



#19705 Birelman

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 18:19

In the braking zone?

Given Schumacher's position relative to him, IMO, yes.

#19706 MidKnight

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 18:21

You normally reach left to better position yourself for either defending for the next turn, or simply get a better entry to the turn they were braking for, not really rocket science, and not illegal considering Schumacher's position relative to himself.


What complete nonsense...and you call yourself a racer? Micheal is calling it like it is...Senna moved to the inside then realized he was about to get out braked and swerved hard left...it wasn't a drift to the outside to set up the corner...it was a blocking move and you know it...like I said what a JOKE. :down:

#19707 sharo

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 18:22

Given Schumacher's position relative to him, IMO, yes.

Unlike you, I haven't raced anyone of those you mention. But AFAIK they have to be committed to a line before starting to brake.

#19708 halifaxf1fan

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 18:23

We hear you before(you say the same thing), save us from the third time. :p


I have to agree with the Coulthard comparison. In DC's final season he just didn't seem to have the reaction time or the awareness of what was happening around him which resulted in lots of mistakes and contact with the cars around him. Schumacher is well down the same road imo. Didn't he get into it again with Grosjean at the start?


edit: Rewatched the start and Schumi didn't have contact with RG. I had thought they banged wheels but they raced clean.

Edited by halifaxf1fan, 14 May 2012 - 03:17.


#19709 exmayol

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 18:24

perez a clown?

Time for MS to deliver instead of blaiming everyone or everything (tyres)


Yes and so is VP, RG and few other "hot" assets of modern F1.
Like I said before with decent car and no wheels coming off MS will deliver.

People who bash him are biased and tend to ignore recent JB and SV mistakes in situations not even remotely racy as this one.

Edited by exmayol, 13 May 2012 - 18:25.


#19710 spacekid

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 18:30

I have to agree with the Coulthard comparison. In DC's final season he just didn't seem to have the reaction time or the awareness of what was happening around him which resulted in lots of mistakes and contact with the cars around him. Schumacher is well down the same road imo. Didn't he get into it again with Grosjean at the start?


The amount of misinformation on this thread is unbelievable.

When was the last time Schumi caused an accident? He hasn't put a single foot wrong in any 2012 race leading up to this one, and today pretty much had a racing incident. Up until now he's been driving pretty nicely.

At the start I believe Grosjean tagged the back of Perez causing his puncture. Nothing to do with Schumi at all.

#19711 DutchCruijff

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 18:32

What is this "impatient" or "reaction time" bullshit? You can't react to a retard weaving into your way, that's something that comes with anticipation where, with hindsight, Schumi should have been more so careful.

#19712 spinster

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 18:32

Yes and so is VP, RG and few other "hot" assets of modern F1.
Like I said before with decent car and no wheels coming off MS will deliver.

People who bash him are biased and tend to ignore recent JB and SV mistakes in situations not even remotely racy as this one.



he didn't deliver in more than 2 years were rosberg did...

and make the clowns complete by adding MS 2010-2012


#19713 MidKnight

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 18:36

What is this "impatient" or "reaction time" bullshit? You can't react to a retard weaving into your way, that's something that comes with anticipation where, with hindsight, Schumi should have been more so careful.


Thank you. The problem with the the penalty is it rewards Senna for the stupid move...

#19714 Birelman

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 18:36

What complete nonsense...and you call yourself a racer? Micheal is calling it like it is...Senna moved to the inside then realized he was about to get out braked and swerved hard left...it wasn't a drift to the outside to set up the corner...it was a blocking move and you know it...like I said what a JOKE. :down:

Dude, Anger leads to the dark side. Lol. Give up the hate! It's only my opinion, it doesn't matter, and you shouldn't care what I think, don't mind what I say, or something. Whatever I say is only my opinion, and it doesn't matter because I don't change the facts of what happened, and I don't influence anyone, specially, nobody that matters, like stewards and such, so, just be happy. :)

I only basemy opinion based on my experience, given the facts, and putting myself in each drivers shoes, from the outside looking in, had I been in Senna's shoes, I would probably not flinched to the left, but, on the other hand, had I been in Schumacher's shoes, I would DEFINETLY not turned back to the inside as he did, all things being equal. So, IMO even though Senna did something I wouldn't completely agree with (however I recognize as acceptable) Schumacher did something very stupid, IMHO

#19715 Diablobb81

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 18:36

Good to see haters admit Michael was done hard by. Now just to convince those that speak about the "minor" movement under braking. :rotfl:

#19716 Birelman

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 18:40

Thank you. The problem with the the penalty is it rewards Senna for the stupid move...

What Is his reward? Exactly?

#19717 olliek88

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 18:41

What is this "impatient" or "reaction time" bullshit? You can't react to a retard weaving into your way, that's something that comes with anticipation where, with hindsight, Schumi should have been more so careful.


Senna barely moved and it was who shuey changed direction resulting in him hitting bruno, if he didn't do that he wouldn't of been at risk of running into the back of him. Not to mention he was comfortably behind and broke too late as well.

How anyone thinks thats Bruno's fault is beyond me.

Edited by olliek88, 13 May 2012 - 18:46.


#19718 ClubmanGT

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 18:43

Senna moved very little IMO. Schumacher didn't know which way to go, hesitated, and then collected Senna under braking. An amateur mistake by Michael IMO.


I love Mike, but the only movement by Senna under braking was a flick to the left and Schumacher wasn't exactly lining him up, was he? Seemed like that movement was enough to distract him and he locked up and sailed into the back of the Williams.

#19719 RacingReporter

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 18:48

:up: THIS!

Its because Schumacher still is living on his own planet...far away form Todays F1! :cat:

In what universe is that true? Give me some of that too, it must be good stuff :clap:

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#19720 Birelman

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 18:51

In what universe is that true? Give me some of that too, it must be good stuff :clap:

He was being sarcastic. :)

#19721 MidKnight

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 18:52

What Is his reward? Exactly?


Oh now drivers are free to weave around in the DRS zone - while the car behind you is carrying significantly more speed...that's a wonderful precedent to set. But you know you are the racing expert so do tell us all how weaving back and forth in DRS zone is great race craft... :rolleyes:

#19722 jj2728

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 18:55

I don't know why you keep attacking my racing knowledge, I never claimed to know more than you, Believe what you want, it makes no difference to me, I find it pretty funny that you base your racing knowledge based on reading books, and have the cojones to say it in public! :rotfl:

I won't argue the point with you much further. yes, Senna had superior position, he was ahead, and further to the inside than Schumacher, there was nowhere for Schumacher to pass him, Senna had positioned himself well to defend where Schumacher was at the time. Senna did Flinch left, as is normal when you defend to the inside and the guy trying to overtake you hasn't pulled alongside yet, so, in that situation it is normal to reach further to the proper racing line.

I'd say you should give those stewards some racing books to read, cus it seems you think you know more than them, as Schumacher is the one with the penalty for the next race, but don't let facts get in the way of your vast book reading racing knowledge. :rolleyes:


I wouldn't give much credence to someone with a grand total of 38 posts who likes to think he's an expert and slings insults. Just another Schumacher fanboy who can't see that it was Schumacher's boneheaded move that caused the accident. The stewards made the right call.

#19723 RacingReporter

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 19:00

I wouldn't give much credence to someone with a grand total of 38 posts who likes to think he's an expert and slings insults. Just another Schumacher fanboy who can't see that it was Schumacher's boneheaded move that caused the accident. The stewards made the right call.

Because 1740 posts change your status from 'visitor' into 'pro'?

#19724 Birelman

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 19:03

Oh now drivers are free to weave around in the DRS zone - while the car behind you is carrying significantly more speed...that's a wonderful precedent to set. But you know you are the racing expert so do tell us all how weaving back and forth in DRS zone is great race craft... :rolleyes:

Aaaaaaaand how exactly did that reward Senna? Last time I checked his car was parked in the kitty litter.

I won't even argue your statement of him "weaving around in the braking zone". I don't agree, and leave it at that

#19725 Sakae

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 19:06

Was Senna braking too early?

#19726 DutchCruijff

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 19:09

Was Senna braking too early?

Only due to his tyres.

#19727 exmayol

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 19:32

he didn't deliver in more than 2 years were rosberg did...

and make the clowns complete by adding MS 2010-2012


I think everyone agrees in 2010 MS was rusty and got his ass handed to him on merit. I disagree about 2011 and 2012. Get you info right.

#19728 MightyMoose

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 19:41

Ok guys, posts have been deleted by more than 1 moderator.

The debate thread is about MS, principally concerning today and his comeback, you can discuss Senna, you can even discuss other similar instances. But you will NOT under any circumstances resort to abusing each other here.

Additionally, it is as clear as day that some people have only appeared here to troll. Patience is running thin with those posters who seem incapable of making any comment without resorting to "karma" or "payback" or previous indiscretions. For the last time, it is trolling/flaming and it stops now, because otherwise you will be stopped from enjoying the ability to post here.

That should be clear enough? Please don't push your luck here any further.

#19729 David M. Kane

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 19:48

5 spot grid penalty for MS in Monaco announced.

#19730 schubacca

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 19:55

5 spot grid penalty for MS in Monaco announced.



And what a joke it is.

Racing incident plain and simple, where I can say that MS should have exercised better judgement. But the stewarts have essentially ruined MS's Monaco GP with a penalty.



#19731 Longtimefan

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 20:04

Its stupid and as stupid as the Hamilton penalty was.

are the spanish stewards power hungry?

Hamilton penalty - wrong (meaning, far far too harsh)
Massa DT - wrong
Schumi penalty - wrong

Crazy stewarding indeed.


#19732 Tardis40

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 20:35

5 spot grid penalty for MS in Monaco announced.


Utterly ridiculous. The stewards need to be investigated.

Edited by Tardis40, 13 May 2012 - 20:36.


#19733 spinster

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 20:44

I think everyone agrees in 2010 MS was rusty and got his ass handed to him on merit. I disagree about 2011 and 2012. Get you info right.


so tell me where he delivered?

#19734 Schumacher7

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 20:48

The penalty is a bit harsh as it was an accident but Michael was almost 100% at fault, Bruno moved slightly but not enough to cause Michael to try and alter the Williams' rear aero. It's probably his reaction afterwards that caused it as well, calling Bruno an idiot, if he'd just said oh well that's racing like he did when Petrov hit him last year I think he would have been given a reprimand at worst.

#19735 baddog

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 20:50

Michael's own fault really, everyone knows Senna is unpredictable and clueless, should have stayed well away from him. In the end Senna did not keep going left as it looked like he would, and Michael was too late to realise this.. and if you hit the back of the car in front it is usually going to go down as your fault.

#19736 ali_M

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 21:06

I watched and I was disappointed. I'm a huge Schumi fan. However, this is the first time where I saw a flash of his senior years manifesting. I doubt that he'd have made the corner if given enough room. So off was his judgement of the situation.

I'm not surprised that he got the penalty for this. :|

#19737 baddog

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 21:09

I watched and I was disappointed. I'm a huge Schumi fan. However, this is the first time where I saw a flash of his senior years manifesting. I doubt that he'd have made the corner if given enough room. So off was his judgement of the situation.

I'm not surprised that he got the penalty for this. :|

No he was braking at the normal place and would certainly have cleanly turned the corner.. he just misjudged what was going on in front of him. Senna was indecisive but thats not a reason to run into him, Michael should have backed out and told him he was a pillock later.

#19738 Dmitriy_Guller

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 21:21

I'm not a fan of Schumacher, but this penalty was bullshit. You can't change lanes abruptly in the braking zones. That's swooping and squatting.

#19739 baddog

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 21:28

I'm not a fan of Schumacher, but this penalty was bullshit. You can't change lanes abruptly in the braking zones. That's swooping and squatting.


I thought that, but on re-watching Senna's (definitely erratic) behaviour was not outright weaving, he just couldn't make his mind up what to do which causes the driver behind to not know what you are going to do and, in this case, make the wrong call.

I think half the grid would have hit him, but he maintains 'plausible deniability'

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#19740 Sakae

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 21:34

Schumi got penalty, but after reading an interview with him, I think that I understand his point. In close racing some backmarkers are simply not good enough for F1 as they are lacking forward think what will happen if they do this or that. Michael needs to end up in top five during quali, and leave those guys far back. There is no other way. The bad season just continues.

#19741 F1ultimate

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 21:34

Both drivers are at fault, especially Senna for being indecisive about whether to defend or to let Schumi pass. There shouldn't have been a penalty handed out.

#19742 Ferrari_F1_fan_2001

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 21:36

Senna hasn't aggressively defended himself in his statements; that does show some feeling of culpability on his part.

Both are to blame IMO; a penalty is harsh but that's the way the cookie crumbles.

However, Schumacher needs to sort himself out. There have been far TOO many incidents involving other drivers over the last 2 and a bit seasons. Look at Nico, he isn't spectacular (maybe that is why he doesn't get enough credit) but he is sensible, and just gets his head down and gets on with the job. Schumacher isn't a force anymore and IMO is trying to assert some sort of dominance over other drivers and it isn't working out.

His achievements stand out head and shoulders above the others' but he needs to sit down, calm down and remember what brought him all that success in the first place; he may still be good in the technical debriefs and in development but it seems like he is leaving his brain behind too.

3 DNF's in 5 races and the lowest placed points scoring driver. Woeful. I still admire the man and he is a legend but unless he calms down and stops making mistakes, his reputation will continue to degrade.

#19743 exmayol

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 21:36

so tell me where he delivered?


Last time I checked 2011 rankings he was just 13 points off his team mate who according to you have delivered. To me 13 points is rather an insufficient deficit to claim MS has not delivered. Those 13 points by the way happen to be the closest team mate gap among big teams in 2011.

Regarding 2012, noone can't deny MS had a lot of bad luck and Spain was the only race he made a mistake. One race out of five. How many drivers this year were error free? Every weekend so far, including Spain, MS was there up to speed, by no means looking as if he is not in a position to deliver.

Care to elaborate on your criteria of delivery?

#19744 Mr2s

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 21:36

Now I know you aren't to be taken seriously! Good grief!


its easy. Ferrari were 3rd best team when Michael Joined, 4ht best when Alonso joined.

Alesi and Berger had a win and poles and broke up the dominant Williams and Benetton many times. Accoding to michael schuamcher fans, this was a team in dire straits. Good grief indeed!

#19745 Ferrari_F1_fan_2001

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 21:39

Schumi got penalty, but after reading an interview with him, I think that I understand his point. In close racing some backmarkers are simply not good enough for F1 as they are lacking forward think what will happen if they do this or that. Michael needs to end up in top five during quali, and leave those guys far back. There is no other way. The bad season just continues.



It looked promising in the first 3 races, all top 4 qualifying slots (4th, 3rd and 2nd). I hope the Mercedes is good around Monaco otherwise I'm afraid we'll just see another Barcelona race with Rosberg (whose confidence must be growing by the minute) romping ahead. The ironic thing is that isn't pace that is Schumacher's issue this time around.

#19746 Mr2s

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 21:42

Mr2s can you kindly enlighten me as to which driver you prefer/follow so that I can filter out from which side you are coming from or are you one of those completely impartial petrol heads just appreciating good drivers and teams?

I suspect perhaps Saint Alonso of Catalan? Shouldn't it be Mr0.6s then? :)


I haven't invested my ego in any driver. I hope that helps.

The '2s' refers to 2 stroke karting FYI.

Perhaps you can enlighten me as to why I must automatically be a fan of another driver to state the facts about a driver trying to blame another today? This seems to be the mentality of most MSC fans.


#19747 baddog

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 21:43

Senna hasn't aggressively defended himself in his statements; that does show some feeling of culpability on his part.

Both are to blame IMO; a penalty is harsh but that's the way the cookie crumbles.

However, Schumacher needs to sort himself out. There have been far TOO many incidents involving other drivers over the last 2 and a bit seasons. Look at Nico, he isn't spectacular (maybe that is why he doesn't get enough credit) but he is sensible, and just gets his head down and gets on with the job. Schumacher isn't a force anymore and IMO is trying to assert some sort of dominance over other drivers and it isn't working out.

His achievements stand out head and shoulders above the others' but he needs to sit down, calm down and remember what brought him all that success in the first place; he may still be good in the technical debriefs and in development but it seems like he is leaving his brain behind too.

3 DNF's in 5 races and the lowest placed points scoring driver. Woeful. I still admire the man and he is a legend but unless he calms down and stops making mistakes, his reputation will continue to degrade.


2 dnfs for mechanicals, one dnf due to an error. One race ruined by someone else's mistake,one qualy fail due to mechanicals. Michael has cleaned his act up entirely and made ONE real error this year so far.

#19748 Sakae

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 21:49

Five places suspension in Monaco is a death sentence. Michael can focus on the race after, but he will not under normal circumstances reach podium there. Impossible task with that crap that Hembery calls tires.

#19749 zelpre

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 21:50

You know how they say.

The best revange is success. Michael needs to bounce back and win in Monaco. The only way left after disaster 5 races, that's how I see it.

#19750 baddog

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 21:53

But way ahead in the championship :lol:

Laughable really.. but not for the reason you think.