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#19701 jj2728

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 17:32

Pathetic joke, 'if' anyone deserved a penalty for that it was Bruno.

Screw this sport.


Another fair weather fan bids adios.....don't let the door hit you on the ass on the way out. Schumacher screwed up, he rammed Senna. His mistake clean and simple. To blame Senna, or to spin this incident in any other way is to be blind and oblivious to the obvious. The stewards made the right call.

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#19702 weston

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 17:34

This will resolve the problem:
Senna could be replaced by Bottas soon
http://www.yallaf1.c...by-bottas-soon/


It's a rumor for a while (fueled by their contracts?).
As far as I understand Schumacher can't read (i.e. predict) properly the moves of B. Senna's generation.
Petrov, Kobayashi and Grosjean is still on the field.
Schumacher has had incidents with all of them. He should be more patient.

#19703 Birelman

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 17:35

Oh it's the ubiquitous "I've raced and I know better than everyone else" racing forum response. Gee no one has ever seen that before :rolleyes: ...this is as straight forward as it gets, Schumacher made the mistake because Senna is running down the center of the track then suddenly veers to the left in an apparent attempt at a block right in the braking zone...if you know anything about racing (which clearly you don't, but maybe that is why you are here and not running a car) then you know that once MS applies the brakes he has limited steering input...even so...he did the best he could to turn back to the inside...

This problem was 100% created by Senna...to give MS a penalty for Senna's bonehead driving is a joke... :down: :down: :down: And sorry you have no clue if you support that penalty...

I find your response rather insulting, I never claimed to know more than you. You had stated that anyone who understands racing would see it as you do, I simply said that I raced, hence, understand racing (not implying better than anyone) and, that I don't agree with your view, hence, not everyone who understands racing agrees with you, hence, your comment (IMHO) was flawed.

You point out that Schumacher had limited steering, which is in part correct (he has full steering, however limited control) but then point out he turned back to the right, however, fail to alias that had he NOT turned the wrong way and had gone left instead( by that same amount of "limited steering") he would have avoided Senna to the left, in fact, what he should have done, coupled with (with his experience) knowing that by that point Senna had superior position and that there was no way through the Brazilian, he should have realized this before his boneheaded move and left himself a bit more room to work with (and I don't mean backing out of it completely, there are ways to keep the pressure up)

BTW, anytime you want to share your racing stories I'm game.....

#19704 ivand911

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 17:35

Another fair weather fan bids adios.....don't let the door hit you on the ass on the way out. Schumacher screwed up, he rammed Senna. His mistake clean and simple. To blame Senna, or to spin this incident in any other way is to be blind and oblivious to the obvious. The stewards made the right call.

Mind the door. :wave:


#19705 SenorSjon

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 17:36

Another fair weather fan bids adios.....don't let the door hit you on the ass on the way out. Schumacher screwed up, he rammed Senna. His mistake clean and simple. To blame Senna, or to spin this incident in any other way is to be blind and oblivious to the obvious. The stewards made the right call.



Just like giving Vettel and Massa a DT but the rest of the group they were racing around could continue? I saw Button in that group as well, the distances between the cars stayed the same, yet two drivers got a penalty.

#19706 SeanValen

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 17:37

Is this penality for real as I see no website showing it?

#19707 mkoscevic

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 17:37

To blame Senna, or to spin this incident in any other way is to be blind and oblivious to the obvious.


Well, you are both blind and stupid if you claim that it's Schumacher's fault.


#19708 MidKnight

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 17:39

Watching the incident is not hard to do it.

Senna didn´t come back completely to the racing line, so he KNEW Schu was left.

Schu didn´t chose the inside in the first place when Senna went to the middle, so that late change of mind is more an evasive move anticipating something that didn´t happen (Senna going completely left).

The only way I´ll change my mind on who´s at fault is watching it from Schu´s onboard and feeling unsafe myself when Senna starts going back left.


Do you get that this is at the end of the DRS zone under heavy braking? Do you get that this is literally the fastest point on the track? Do you get that the contact happens under braking? The "adapting to something that didn't happen" statement is trying to apply hindsight to a racing incident that Senna created...what has racing become when you penalize a guy for reacting to someone weaving in front of you? It was a racing incident, one that Senna created...he is running down the center of the track and weaving because he was being a tool...and frankly he got what he deserved...

#19709 ivand911

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 17:39

Is this penality for real as I see no website showing it?

It is real.
http://www.gpupdate....on-monaco-grid/

Edited by ivand911, 13 May 2012 - 17:40.


#19710 MidKnight

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 17:43

I find your response rather insulting, I never claimed to know more than you. You had stated that anyone who understands racing would see it as you do, I simply said that I raced, hence, understand racing (not implying better than anyone) and, that I don't agree with your view, hence, not everyone who understands racing agrees with you, hence, your comment (IMHO) was flawed.

You point out that Schumacher had limited steering, which is in part correct (he has full steering, however limited control) but then point out he turned back to the right, however, fail to alias that had he NOT turned the wrong way and had gone left instead( by that same amount of "limited steering") he would have avoided Senna to the left, in fact, what he should have done, coupled with (with his experience) knowing that by that point Senna had superior position and that there was no way through the Brazilian, he should have realized this before his boneheaded move and left himself a bit more room to work with (and I don't mean backing out of it completely, there are ways to keep the pressure up)

BTW, anytime you want to share your racing stories I'm game.....


So running down the center of the track off the preferred line is "superior position". Yeah, I don't think you have much racing experience. I don't. If you think Senna had superior position you need to read his late Uncle's book - you know, the Principles of Race Driving. Make sure you start on page one.

Edited by MidKnight, 13 May 2012 - 17:49.


#19711 SeanValen

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 17:44

Is this penality for real as I see no website showing it?



It is real then.

This is getting stupid.

Schumacher was robbed of his 4th place points position by the FIA in 2010 which mercedes didn't protest since no title was on the line.
Now this penality, add this along with the gearbox-australia, pitsotp wheel nut-china, drs issue quali-bahrain, racing with bruno senna.

It is real.
http://www.gpupdate....on-monaco-grid/




Schumacher is going to be even more pissed at everything now, the FIA have become annoying to join with the annoyance of losing spain points, I expect him to channel his anger into the 2006 Monaco race performance. :mad: :mad: :mad:

Edited by SeanValen, 13 May 2012 - 17:47.


#19712 Skinnyguy

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 17:45

Do you get that this is at the end of the DRS zone under heavy braking? Do you get that this is literally the fastest point on the track? Do you get that the contact happens under braking?



Pointless.

The "adapting to something that didn't happen" statement is trying to apply hindsight to a racing incident that Senna created...what has racing become when you penalize a guy for reacting to someone weaving in front of you? It was a racing incident, one that Senna created...he is running down the center of the track and weaving because he was being a tool...and frankly he got what he deserved...


Not adapting. If you´re on the outside of someone into a braking zone, expecting him to move towards you as much as he can without blocking your way is normal.

What Senna did was defending, and then going back towards the racing line leaving a car´s width. It´s perfectly OK.

#19713 Figure8

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 17:49

If they were all just cruising around, nowhere near the limit you'd expect MS to have plenty of time to take avoiding action. Given that current F1 us like following a safety car and not actual racing I'm shocked he had this incident.

#19714 Skinnyguy

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 17:51

So running down the center off the track off the preferred line is "superior position". Yeah, I don't think you have much racing experience. I don't. If you think Senna had superior position you need to read his late Uncle's book - you know, the Principles of Race Driving. Make sure you start on page one.


Oh my, you´re clueless.

A full car lenght´s in front, and with the inside line into the braking zone IS a superior position. You have no hope to pass someone in that position, all you can do is to get a better exit and try later. You have no hope of hanging around the outside, and if the other guys parks it on the apex and avoids the undercut you won´t even get a better exit.

#19715 mkoscevic

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 17:52

What Senna did was defending, and then going back towards the racing line leaving a car´s width. It´s perfectly OK.


What is the purpose of "leaving car's width" in that case? Senna moved in braking zone and when you brake you can't move car much which is why Schumacher couldn't switch line.

Have you ever drove a car?

Edited by mkoscevic, 13 May 2012 - 17:52.


#19716 MidKnight

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 17:53

Pointless.



Not adapting. If you´re on the outside of someone into a braking zone, expecting him to move towards you as much as he can without blocking your way is normal.

What Senna did was defending, and then going back towards the racing line leaving a car´s width. It´s perfectly OK.


Yeah it wasn't weaving at all was it? What a joke. :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

I suppose the fact that DRS was deployed and the fact that MS is carrying more speed at the time is just as pointless in your head as the fact the Senna is weaving his car down the center of the track...but you know you probably have racing "experience" too right? And just like the other guy you would have realized what Senna was thinking and "left yourself room" and all that, yes? What a joke. :down: :down: :down:

#19717 MidKnight

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 17:55

Oh my, you´re clueless.

A full car lenght´s in front, and with the inside line into the braking zone IS a superior position. You have no hope to pass someone in that position, all you can do is to get a better exit and try later. You have no hope of hanging around the outside, and if the other guys parks it on the apex and avoids the undercut you won´t even get a better exit.


No. The clueless one is you. MS is carrying more speed on the outside and is going to steal that apex which is why Senna jinked to the left. You simply do not understand what happened.

#19718 Dunder

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 17:58

Senna did move in the braking zone and that should not be allowed but hearing Schumacher complaining about someone moving in the braking zone is somewhat ironic.
Schumacher had the inside if he wanted it I guess he just misjudged how early Senna would have to brake given the state of his tyres at that stage.

All in all I would put it down as a 50/50 thing but the stewards do tend to give extra latitude to the defending driver.

Edited by Dunder, 13 May 2012 - 17:59.


#19719 sniper80

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 17:59

It's disappointing to see Michael make such mistakes & a lot of coming togethers regarding all the experience he has. Looks like racing at the front hasn't really honed his racing craft over the years? This has happened a few times now.

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#19720 Birelman

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 18:00

So running down the center of the track off the preferred line is "superior position". Yeah, I don't think you have much racing experience. I don't. If you think Senna had superior position you need to read his late Uncle's book - you know, the Principles of Race Driving. Make sure you start on page one.

I don't know why you keep attacking my racing knowledge, I never claimed to know more than you, Believe what you want, it makes no difference to me, I find it pretty funny that you base your racing knowledge based on reading books, and have the cojones to say it in public! :rotfl:

I won't argue the point with you much further. yes, Senna had superior position, he was ahead, and further to the inside than Schumacher, there was nowhere for Schumacher to pass him, Senna had positioned himself well to defend where Schumacher was at the time. Senna did Flinch left, as is normal when you defend to the inside and the guy trying to overtake you hasn't pulled alongside yet, so, in that situation it is normal to reach further to the proper racing line.

I'd say you should give those stewards some racing books to read, cus it seems you think you know more than them, as Schumacher is the one with the penalty for the next race, but don't let facts get in the way of your vast book reading racing knowledge. :rolleyes:

#19721 Skinnyguy

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 18:01

Yeah it wasn't weaving at all was it? What a joke.


No. Watch the video. Senna´s move is light.

I suppose the fact that DRS was deployed and the fact that MS is carrying more speed at the time is just as pointless in your head as the fact the Senna is weaving his car down the center of the track...


It is, because Senna left room on the left for Schumacher to brake as far as he wanted into the braking zone. He wasn´t blocked.

but you know you probably have racing "experience" too right? And just like the other guy you would have realized what Senna was thinking and "left yourself room" and all that, yes? What a joke.


No, that´s the other guy, you´re losing it. I don´t, unless you consider road cycling "racing" :rolleyes:

99% of times drivers leave room comming back to the racing line, the other 1% happens when they don´t know where the other guy is, or when new-Schumacher decides to come completely back (Canada 2010, Monza 2011...). Nothing in the videos shown suggest Senna wouldn´t do it.

#19722 Skinnyguy

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 18:04

MS is carrying more speed on the outside and is going to steal that apex which is why Senna jinked to the left. You simply do not understand what happened.


Schumacher was going NOWHERE from there. On the outside, and fully behind. No chance for hanging around the outside, no straight after that to capitalize from a better exit. You are cluesless. :rotfl:

#19723 Birelman

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 18:07

Schumacher was going NOWHERE from there. On the outside, and fully behind. No chance for hanging around the outside, no straight after that to capitalize from a better exit. You are cluesless. :rotfl:

Don't mind him man, he thinks Schumacher had superior position, he even told me to go read Ayrton Senna's driving book so that I could understand it. Lol

#19724 MidKnight

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 18:07

I don't know why you keep attacking my racing knowledge, I never claimed to know more than you, Believe what you want, it makes no difference to me, I find it pretty funny that you base your racing knowledge based on reading books, and have the cojones to say it in public! :rotfl:

I won't argue the point with you much further. yes, Senna had superior position, he was ahead, and further to the inside than Schumacher, there was nowhere for Schumacher to pass him, Senna had positioned himself well to defend where Schumacher was at the time. Senna did Flinch left, as is normal when you defend to the inside and the guy trying to overtake you hasn't pulled alongside yet, so, in that situation it is normal to reach further to the proper racing line.

I'd say you should give those stewards some racing books to read, cus it seems you think you know more than them, as Schumacher is the one with the penalty for the next race, but don't let facts get in the way of your vast book reading racing knowledge. :rolleyes:


"I just took a minute to watch the video and if you look at the overhead shot you can see that he moves right to defend his inside position, but in the braking phase he moves back left right in front of me. Then I tried to avoid to the inside again, but too late. Then it's done because that's in the braking phase. Very frustrating. Very much annoyed about that."


And yes, Aryton and Michael know far more than you, and yes, whomever penalized MS for this is a complete moron.

#19725 spacekid

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 18:08

Schumacher was going NOWHERE from there. On the outside, and fully behind. No chance for hanging around the outside, no straight after that to capitalize from a better exit. You are cluesless. :rotfl:


He was going to the inside of the next corner by going around the outside.

#19726 MidKnight

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 18:10

Schumacher was going NOWHERE from there. On the outside, and fully behind. No chance for hanging around the outside, no straight after that to capitalize from a better exit. You are cluesless. :rotfl:


He was going nowhere yet Bruno swerved to the left... :rolleyes: You realize that you are now talking in circles, right? Why did Bruno swerve to the left then?

#19727 Birelman

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 18:10

And yes, Aryton and Michael know far more than you, and yes, whomever penalized MS for this is a complete moron.

Aaaaaand of course his explanation has nothing to do with the fact he's defending himself :rolleyes:

I'm very aware the great Ayrton Senna, and Michael Schumacher know more than me. The stewards also know more than you. :smoking:

#19728 puxanando

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 18:13

The stewards also know more than you. :smoking:


:up: THIS!

Its because Schumacher still is living on his own planet...far away form Todays F1! :cat:


#19729 spinster

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 18:13

This will resolve the problem:
Senna could be replaced by Bottas soon
http://www.yallaf1.c...by-bottas-soon/


replacing both would be the best :rotfl:

#19730 sharo

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 18:13

It's a rumor for a while (fueled by their contracts?).
As far as I understand Schumacher can't read (i.e. predict) properly the moves of B. Senna's generation.
Petrov, Kobayashi and Grosjean is still on the field.
Schumacher has had incidents with all of them. He should be more patient.

I share your opinion. New generation of driver brought different track behavior, maybe more GP2 style.
Nevertheless the speed differential was huge at almost no distance between the cars. MS was already committed to the outside and overreacted to Senna's move to the left with the latter already early braking.

#19731 Birelman

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 18:13

He was going nowhere yet Bruno swerved to the left... :rolleyes: You realize that you are now talking in circles, right? Why did Bruno swerve to the left then?

You normally reach left to better position yourself for either defending for the next turn, or simply get a better entry to the turn they were braking for, not really rocket science, and not illegal considering Schumacher's position relative to himself.

#19732 sharo

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 18:14

You normally reach left to better position yourself for either defending for the next turn, or simply get a better entry to the turn they were braking for, not really rocket science, and not illegal considering Schumacher's position relative to himself.

In the braking zone?

#19733 tifosiMac

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 18:15

Senna moved very little IMO. Schumacher didn't know which way to go, hesitated, and then collected Senna under braking. An amateur mistake by Michael IMO.

#19734 exmayol

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 18:15

Very disappointing outcome, not because of lost points but rather because the accident been totally avoidable. MS indeed has problems reading into the moves by Senna Jr / Perez / other clowns. Penalty was not necessary. Racing incident.

#19735 spinster

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 18:17

Very disappointing outcome, not because of lost points but rather because the accident been totally avoidable. MS indeed has problems reading into the moves by Senna Jr / Perez / other clowns. Penalty was not necessary. Racing incident.


perez a clown?

Time for MS to deliver instead of blaiming everyone or everything (tyres)



#19736 Birelman

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 18:19

In the braking zone?

Given Schumacher's position relative to him, IMO, yes.

#19737 MidKnight

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 18:21

You normally reach left to better position yourself for either defending for the next turn, or simply get a better entry to the turn they were braking for, not really rocket science, and not illegal considering Schumacher's position relative to himself.


What complete nonsense...and you call yourself a racer? Micheal is calling it like it is...Senna moved to the inside then realized he was about to get out braked and swerved hard left...it wasn't a drift to the outside to set up the corner...it was a blocking move and you know it...like I said what a JOKE. :down:

#19738 sharo

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 18:22

Given Schumacher's position relative to him, IMO, yes.

Unlike you, I haven't raced anyone of those you mention. But AFAIK they have to be committed to a line before starting to brake.

#19739 halifaxf1fan

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 18:23

We hear you before(you say the same thing), save us from the third time. :p


I have to agree with the Coulthard comparison. In DC's final season he just didn't seem to have the reaction time or the awareness of what was happening around him which resulted in lots of mistakes and contact with the cars around him. Schumacher is well down the same road imo. Didn't he get into it again with Grosjean at the start?


edit: Rewatched the start and Schumi didn't have contact with RG. I had thought they banged wheels but they raced clean.

Edited by halifaxf1fan, 14 May 2012 - 03:17.


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#19740 exmayol

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 18:24

perez a clown?

Time for MS to deliver instead of blaiming everyone or everything (tyres)


Yes and so is VP, RG and few other "hot" assets of modern F1.
Like I said before with decent car and no wheels coming off MS will deliver.

People who bash him are biased and tend to ignore recent JB and SV mistakes in situations not even remotely racy as this one.

Edited by exmayol, 13 May 2012 - 18:25.


#19741 spacekid

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 18:30

I have to agree with the Coulthard comparison. In DC's final season he just didn't seem to have the reaction time or the awareness of what was happening around him which resulted in lots of mistakes and contact with the cars around him. Schumacher is well down the same road imo. Didn't he get into it again with Grosjean at the start?


The amount of misinformation on this thread is unbelievable.

When was the last time Schumi caused an accident? He hasn't put a single foot wrong in any 2012 race leading up to this one, and today pretty much had a racing incident. Up until now he's been driving pretty nicely.

At the start I believe Grosjean tagged the back of Perez causing his puncture. Nothing to do with Schumi at all.

#19742 DutchCruijff

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 18:32

What is this "impatient" or "reaction time" bullshit? You can't react to a retard weaving into your way, that's something that comes with anticipation where, with hindsight, Schumi should have been more so careful.

#19743 spinster

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 18:32

Yes and so is VP, RG and few other "hot" assets of modern F1.
Like I said before with decent car and no wheels coming off MS will deliver.

People who bash him are biased and tend to ignore recent JB and SV mistakes in situations not even remotely racy as this one.



he didn't deliver in more than 2 years were rosberg did...

and make the clowns complete by adding MS 2010-2012


#19744 MidKnight

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 18:36

What is this "impatient" or "reaction time" bullshit? You can't react to a retard weaving into your way, that's something that comes with anticipation where, with hindsight, Schumi should have been more so careful.


Thank you. The problem with the the penalty is it rewards Senna for the stupid move...

#19745 Birelman

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 18:36

What complete nonsense...and you call yourself a racer? Micheal is calling it like it is...Senna moved to the inside then realized he was about to get out braked and swerved hard left...it wasn't a drift to the outside to set up the corner...it was a blocking move and you know it...like I said what a JOKE. :down:

Dude, Anger leads to the dark side. Lol. Give up the hate! It's only my opinion, it doesn't matter, and you shouldn't care what I think, don't mind what I say, or something. Whatever I say is only my opinion, and it doesn't matter because I don't change the facts of what happened, and I don't influence anyone, specially, nobody that matters, like stewards and such, so, just be happy. :)

I only basemy opinion based on my experience, given the facts, and putting myself in each drivers shoes, from the outside looking in, had I been in Senna's shoes, I would probably not flinched to the left, but, on the other hand, had I been in Schumacher's shoes, I would DEFINETLY not turned back to the inside as he did, all things being equal. So, IMO even though Senna did something I wouldn't completely agree with (however I recognize as acceptable) Schumacher did something very stupid, IMHO

#19746 Diablobb81

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 18:36

Good to see haters admit Michael was done hard by. Now just to convince those that speak about the "minor" movement under braking. :rotfl:

#19747 Birelman

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 18:40

Thank you. The problem with the the penalty is it rewards Senna for the stupid move...

What Is his reward? Exactly?

#19748 olliek88

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 18:41

What is this "impatient" or "reaction time" bullshit? You can't react to a retard weaving into your way, that's something that comes with anticipation where, with hindsight, Schumi should have been more so careful.


Senna barely moved and it was who shuey changed direction resulting in him hitting bruno, if he didn't do that he wouldn't of been at risk of running into the back of him. Not to mention he was comfortably behind and broke too late as well.

How anyone thinks thats Bruno's fault is beyond me.

Edited by olliek88, 13 May 2012 - 18:46.


#19749 ClubmanGT

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 18:43

Senna moved very little IMO. Schumacher didn't know which way to go, hesitated, and then collected Senna under braking. An amateur mistake by Michael IMO.


I love Mike, but the only movement by Senna under braking was a flick to the left and Schumacher wasn't exactly lining him up, was he? Seemed like that movement was enough to distract him and he locked up and sailed into the back of the Williams.

#19750 RacingReporter

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 18:48

:up: THIS!

Its because Schumacher still is living on his own planet...far away form Todays F1! :cat:

In what universe is that true? Give me some of that too, it must be good stuff :clap: