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#19701 sniper80

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 17:59

It's disappointing to see Michael make such mistakes & a lot of coming togethers regarding all the experience he has. Looks like racing at the front hasn't really honed his racing craft over the years? This has happened a few times now.

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#19702 Birelman

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 18:00

So running down the center of the track off the preferred line is "superior position". Yeah, I don't think you have much racing experience. I don't. If you think Senna had superior position you need to read his late Uncle's book - you know, the Principles of Race Driving. Make sure you start on page one.

I don't know why you keep attacking my racing knowledge, I never claimed to know more than you, Believe what you want, it makes no difference to me, I find it pretty funny that you base your racing knowledge based on reading books, and have the cojones to say it in public! :rotfl:

I won't argue the point with you much further. yes, Senna had superior position, he was ahead, and further to the inside than Schumacher, there was nowhere for Schumacher to pass him, Senna had positioned himself well to defend where Schumacher was at the time. Senna did Flinch left, as is normal when you defend to the inside and the guy trying to overtake you hasn't pulled alongside yet, so, in that situation it is normal to reach further to the proper racing line.

I'd say you should give those stewards some racing books to read, cus it seems you think you know more than them, as Schumacher is the one with the penalty for the next race, but don't let facts get in the way of your vast book reading racing knowledge. :rolleyes:

#19703 Skinnyguy

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 18:01

Yeah it wasn't weaving at all was it? What a joke.


No. Watch the video. Senna´s move is light.

I suppose the fact that DRS was deployed and the fact that MS is carrying more speed at the time is just as pointless in your head as the fact the Senna is weaving his car down the center of the track...


It is, because Senna left room on the left for Schumacher to brake as far as he wanted into the braking zone. He wasn´t blocked.

but you know you probably have racing "experience" too right? And just like the other guy you would have realized what Senna was thinking and "left yourself room" and all that, yes? What a joke.


No, that´s the other guy, you´re losing it. I don´t, unless you consider road cycling "racing" :rolleyes:

99% of times drivers leave room comming back to the racing line, the other 1% happens when they don´t know where the other guy is, or when new-Schumacher decides to come completely back (Canada 2010, Monza 2011...). Nothing in the videos shown suggest Senna wouldn´t do it.

#19704 Skinnyguy

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 18:04

MS is carrying more speed on the outside and is going to steal that apex which is why Senna jinked to the left. You simply do not understand what happened.


Schumacher was going NOWHERE from there. On the outside, and fully behind. No chance for hanging around the outside, no straight after that to capitalize from a better exit. You are cluesless. :rotfl:

#19705 Birelman

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 18:07

Schumacher was going NOWHERE from there. On the outside, and fully behind. No chance for hanging around the outside, no straight after that to capitalize from a better exit. You are cluesless. :rotfl:

Don't mind him man, he thinks Schumacher had superior position, he even told me to go read Ayrton Senna's driving book so that I could understand it. Lol

#19706 MidKnight

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 18:07

I don't know why you keep attacking my racing knowledge, I never claimed to know more than you, Believe what you want, it makes no difference to me, I find it pretty funny that you base your racing knowledge based on reading books, and have the cojones to say it in public! :rotfl:

I won't argue the point with you much further. yes, Senna had superior position, he was ahead, and further to the inside than Schumacher, there was nowhere for Schumacher to pass him, Senna had positioned himself well to defend where Schumacher was at the time. Senna did Flinch left, as is normal when you defend to the inside and the guy trying to overtake you hasn't pulled alongside yet, so, in that situation it is normal to reach further to the proper racing line.

I'd say you should give those stewards some racing books to read, cus it seems you think you know more than them, as Schumacher is the one with the penalty for the next race, but don't let facts get in the way of your vast book reading racing knowledge. :rolleyes:


"I just took a minute to watch the video and if you look at the overhead shot you can see that he moves right to defend his inside position, but in the braking phase he moves back left right in front of me. Then I tried to avoid to the inside again, but too late. Then it's done because that's in the braking phase. Very frustrating. Very much annoyed about that."


And yes, Aryton and Michael know far more than you, and yes, whomever penalized MS for this is a complete moron.

#19707 spacekid

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 18:08

Schumacher was going NOWHERE from there. On the outside, and fully behind. No chance for hanging around the outside, no straight after that to capitalize from a better exit. You are cluesless. :rotfl:


He was going to the inside of the next corner by going around the outside.

#19708 MidKnight

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 18:10

Schumacher was going NOWHERE from there. On the outside, and fully behind. No chance for hanging around the outside, no straight after that to capitalize from a better exit. You are cluesless. :rotfl:


He was going nowhere yet Bruno swerved to the left... :rolleyes: You realize that you are now talking in circles, right? Why did Bruno swerve to the left then?

#19709 Birelman

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 18:10

And yes, Aryton and Michael know far more than you, and yes, whomever penalized MS for this is a complete moron.

Aaaaaand of course his explanation has nothing to do with the fact he's defending himself :rolleyes:

I'm very aware the great Ayrton Senna, and Michael Schumacher know more than me. The stewards also know more than you. :smoking:

#19710 puxanando

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 18:13

The stewards also know more than you. :smoking:


:up: THIS!

Its because Schumacher still is living on his own planet...far away form Todays F1! :cat:


#19711 spinster

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 18:13

This will resolve the problem:
Senna could be replaced by Bottas soon
http://www.yallaf1.c...by-bottas-soon/


replacing both would be the best :rotfl:

#19712 sharo

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 18:13

It's a rumor for a while (fueled by their contracts?).
As far as I understand Schumacher can't read (i.e. predict) properly the moves of B. Senna's generation.
Petrov, Kobayashi and Grosjean is still on the field.
Schumacher has had incidents with all of them. He should be more patient.

I share your opinion. New generation of driver brought different track behavior, maybe more GP2 style.
Nevertheless the speed differential was huge at almost no distance between the cars. MS was already committed to the outside and overreacted to Senna's move to the left with the latter already early braking.

#19713 Birelman

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 18:13

He was going nowhere yet Bruno swerved to the left... :rolleyes: You realize that you are now talking in circles, right? Why did Bruno swerve to the left then?

You normally reach left to better position yourself for either defending for the next turn, or simply get a better entry to the turn they were braking for, not really rocket science, and not illegal considering Schumacher's position relative to himself.

#19714 sharo

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 18:14

You normally reach left to better position yourself for either defending for the next turn, or simply get a better entry to the turn they were braking for, not really rocket science, and not illegal considering Schumacher's position relative to himself.

In the braking zone?

#19715 tifosiMac

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 18:15

Senna moved very little IMO. Schumacher didn't know which way to go, hesitated, and then collected Senna under braking. An amateur mistake by Michael IMO.

#19716 exmayol

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 18:15

Very disappointing outcome, not because of lost points but rather because the accident been totally avoidable. MS indeed has problems reading into the moves by Senna Jr / Perez / other clowns. Penalty was not necessary. Racing incident.

#19717 spinster

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 18:17

Very disappointing outcome, not because of lost points but rather because the accident been totally avoidable. MS indeed has problems reading into the moves by Senna Jr / Perez / other clowns. Penalty was not necessary. Racing incident.


perez a clown?

Time for MS to deliver instead of blaiming everyone or everything (tyres)



#19718 Birelman

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 18:19

In the braking zone?

Given Schumacher's position relative to him, IMO, yes.

#19719 MidKnight

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 18:21

You normally reach left to better position yourself for either defending for the next turn, or simply get a better entry to the turn they were braking for, not really rocket science, and not illegal considering Schumacher's position relative to himself.


What complete nonsense...and you call yourself a racer? Micheal is calling it like it is...Senna moved to the inside then realized he was about to get out braked and swerved hard left...it wasn't a drift to the outside to set up the corner...it was a blocking move and you know it...like I said what a JOKE. :down:

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#19720 sharo

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 18:22

Given Schumacher's position relative to him, IMO, yes.

Unlike you, I haven't raced anyone of those you mention. But AFAIK they have to be committed to a line before starting to brake.

#19721 halifaxf1fan

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 18:23

We hear you before(you say the same thing), save us from the third time. :p


I have to agree with the Coulthard comparison. In DC's final season he just didn't seem to have the reaction time or the awareness of what was happening around him which resulted in lots of mistakes and contact with the cars around him. Schumacher is well down the same road imo. Didn't he get into it again with Grosjean at the start?


edit: Rewatched the start and Schumi didn't have contact with RG. I had thought they banged wheels but they raced clean.

Edited by halifaxf1fan, 14 May 2012 - 03:17.


#19722 exmayol

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 18:24

perez a clown?

Time for MS to deliver instead of blaiming everyone or everything (tyres)


Yes and so is VP, RG and few other "hot" assets of modern F1.
Like I said before with decent car and no wheels coming off MS will deliver.

People who bash him are biased and tend to ignore recent JB and SV mistakes in situations not even remotely racy as this one.

Edited by exmayol, 13 May 2012 - 18:25.


#19723 spacekid

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 18:30

I have to agree with the Coulthard comparison. In DC's final season he just didn't seem to have the reaction time or the awareness of what was happening around him which resulted in lots of mistakes and contact with the cars around him. Schumacher is well down the same road imo. Didn't he get into it again with Grosjean at the start?


The amount of misinformation on this thread is unbelievable.

When was the last time Schumi caused an accident? He hasn't put a single foot wrong in any 2012 race leading up to this one, and today pretty much had a racing incident. Up until now he's been driving pretty nicely.

At the start I believe Grosjean tagged the back of Perez causing his puncture. Nothing to do with Schumi at all.

#19724 DutchCruijff

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 18:32

What is this "impatient" or "reaction time" bullshit? You can't react to a retard weaving into your way, that's something that comes with anticipation where, with hindsight, Schumi should have been more so careful.

#19725 spinster

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 18:32

Yes and so is VP, RG and few other "hot" assets of modern F1.
Like I said before with decent car and no wheels coming off MS will deliver.

People who bash him are biased and tend to ignore recent JB and SV mistakes in situations not even remotely racy as this one.



he didn't deliver in more than 2 years were rosberg did...

and make the clowns complete by adding MS 2010-2012


#19726 MidKnight

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 18:36

What is this "impatient" or "reaction time" bullshit? You can't react to a retard weaving into your way, that's something that comes with anticipation where, with hindsight, Schumi should have been more so careful.


Thank you. The problem with the the penalty is it rewards Senna for the stupid move...

#19727 Birelman

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 18:36

What complete nonsense...and you call yourself a racer? Micheal is calling it like it is...Senna moved to the inside then realized he was about to get out braked and swerved hard left...it wasn't a drift to the outside to set up the corner...it was a blocking move and you know it...like I said what a JOKE. :down:

Dude, Anger leads to the dark side. Lol. Give up the hate! It's only my opinion, it doesn't matter, and you shouldn't care what I think, don't mind what I say, or something. Whatever I say is only my opinion, and it doesn't matter because I don't change the facts of what happened, and I don't influence anyone, specially, nobody that matters, like stewards and such, so, just be happy. :)

I only basemy opinion based on my experience, given the facts, and putting myself in each drivers shoes, from the outside looking in, had I been in Senna's shoes, I would probably not flinched to the left, but, on the other hand, had I been in Schumacher's shoes, I would DEFINETLY not turned back to the inside as he did, all things being equal. So, IMO even though Senna did something I wouldn't completely agree with (however I recognize as acceptable) Schumacher did something very stupid, IMHO

#19728 Diablobb81

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 18:36

Good to see haters admit Michael was done hard by. Now just to convince those that speak about the "minor" movement under braking. :rotfl:

#19729 Birelman

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 18:40

Thank you. The problem with the the penalty is it rewards Senna for the stupid move...

What Is his reward? Exactly?

#19730 olliek88

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 18:41

What is this "impatient" or "reaction time" bullshit? You can't react to a retard weaving into your way, that's something that comes with anticipation where, with hindsight, Schumi should have been more so careful.


Senna barely moved and it was who shuey changed direction resulting in him hitting bruno, if he didn't do that he wouldn't of been at risk of running into the back of him. Not to mention he was comfortably behind and broke too late as well.

How anyone thinks thats Bruno's fault is beyond me.

Edited by olliek88, 13 May 2012 - 18:46.


#19731 ClubmanGT

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 18:43

Senna moved very little IMO. Schumacher didn't know which way to go, hesitated, and then collected Senna under braking. An amateur mistake by Michael IMO.


I love Mike, but the only movement by Senna under braking was a flick to the left and Schumacher wasn't exactly lining him up, was he? Seemed like that movement was enough to distract him and he locked up and sailed into the back of the Williams.

#19732 RacingReporter

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 18:48

:up: THIS!

Its because Schumacher still is living on his own planet...far away form Todays F1! :cat:

In what universe is that true? Give me some of that too, it must be good stuff :clap:

#19733 Birelman

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 18:51

In what universe is that true? Give me some of that too, it must be good stuff :clap:

He was being sarcastic. :)

#19734 MidKnight

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 18:52

What Is his reward? Exactly?


Oh now drivers are free to weave around in the DRS zone - while the car behind you is carrying significantly more speed...that's a wonderful precedent to set. But you know you are the racing expert so do tell us all how weaving back and forth in DRS zone is great race craft... :rolleyes:

#19735 jj2728

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 18:55

I don't know why you keep attacking my racing knowledge, I never claimed to know more than you, Believe what you want, it makes no difference to me, I find it pretty funny that you base your racing knowledge based on reading books, and have the cojones to say it in public! :rotfl:

I won't argue the point with you much further. yes, Senna had superior position, he was ahead, and further to the inside than Schumacher, there was nowhere for Schumacher to pass him, Senna had positioned himself well to defend where Schumacher was at the time. Senna did Flinch left, as is normal when you defend to the inside and the guy trying to overtake you hasn't pulled alongside yet, so, in that situation it is normal to reach further to the proper racing line.

I'd say you should give those stewards some racing books to read, cus it seems you think you know more than them, as Schumacher is the one with the penalty for the next race, but don't let facts get in the way of your vast book reading racing knowledge. :rolleyes:


I wouldn't give much credence to someone with a grand total of 38 posts who likes to think he's an expert and slings insults. Just another Schumacher fanboy who can't see that it was Schumacher's boneheaded move that caused the accident. The stewards made the right call.

#19736 RacingReporter

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 19:00

I wouldn't give much credence to someone with a grand total of 38 posts who likes to think he's an expert and slings insults. Just another Schumacher fanboy who can't see that it was Schumacher's boneheaded move that caused the accident. The stewards made the right call.

Because 1740 posts change your status from 'visitor' into 'pro'?

#19737 Birelman

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 19:03

Oh now drivers are free to weave around in the DRS zone - while the car behind you is carrying significantly more speed...that's a wonderful precedent to set. But you know you are the racing expert so do tell us all how weaving back and forth in DRS zone is great race craft... :rolleyes:

Aaaaaaaand how exactly did that reward Senna? Last time I checked his car was parked in the kitty litter.

I won't even argue your statement of him "weaving around in the braking zone". I don't agree, and leave it at that

#19738 Sakae

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 19:06

Was Senna braking too early?

#19739 DutchCruijff

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 19:09

Was Senna braking too early?

Only due to his tyres.

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#19740 exmayol

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 19:32

he didn't deliver in more than 2 years were rosberg did...

and make the clowns complete by adding MS 2010-2012


I think everyone agrees in 2010 MS was rusty and got his ass handed to him on merit. I disagree about 2011 and 2012. Get you info right.

#19741 MightyMoose

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 19:41

Ok guys, posts have been deleted by more than 1 moderator.

The debate thread is about MS, principally concerning today and his comeback, you can discuss Senna, you can even discuss other similar instances. But you will NOT under any circumstances resort to abusing each other here.

Additionally, it is as clear as day that some people have only appeared here to troll. Patience is running thin with those posters who seem incapable of making any comment without resorting to "karma" or "payback" or previous indiscretions. For the last time, it is trolling/flaming and it stops now, because otherwise you will be stopped from enjoying the ability to post here.

That should be clear enough? Please don't push your luck here any further.

#19742 David M. Kane

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 19:48

5 spot grid penalty for MS in Monaco announced.

#19743 schubacca

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 19:55

5 spot grid penalty for MS in Monaco announced.



And what a joke it is.

Racing incident plain and simple, where I can say that MS should have exercised better judgement. But the stewarts have essentially ruined MS's Monaco GP with a penalty.



#19744 Longtimefan

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 20:04

Its stupid and as stupid as the Hamilton penalty was.

are the spanish stewards power hungry?

Hamilton penalty - wrong (meaning, far far too harsh)
Massa DT - wrong
Schumi penalty - wrong

Crazy stewarding indeed.


#19745 Tardis40

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 20:35

5 spot grid penalty for MS in Monaco announced.


Utterly ridiculous. The stewards need to be investigated.

Edited by Tardis40, 13 May 2012 - 20:36.


#19746 spinster

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 20:44

I think everyone agrees in 2010 MS was rusty and got his ass handed to him on merit. I disagree about 2011 and 2012. Get you info right.


so tell me where he delivered?

#19747 Schumacher7

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 20:48

The penalty is a bit harsh as it was an accident but Michael was almost 100% at fault, Bruno moved slightly but not enough to cause Michael to try and alter the Williams' rear aero. It's probably his reaction afterwards that caused it as well, calling Bruno an idiot, if he'd just said oh well that's racing like he did when Petrov hit him last year I think he would have been given a reprimand at worst.

#19748 baddog

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 20:50

Michael's own fault really, everyone knows Senna is unpredictable and clueless, should have stayed well away from him. In the end Senna did not keep going left as it looked like he would, and Michael was too late to realise this.. and if you hit the back of the car in front it is usually going to go down as your fault.

#19749 ali_M

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 21:06

I watched and I was disappointed. I'm a huge Schumi fan. However, this is the first time where I saw a flash of his senior years manifesting. I doubt that he'd have made the corner if given enough room. So off was his judgement of the situation.

I'm not surprised that he got the penalty for this. :|

#19750 baddog

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 21:09

I watched and I was disappointed. I'm a huge Schumi fan. However, this is the first time where I saw a flash of his senior years manifesting. I doubt that he'd have made the corner if given enough room. So off was his judgement of the situation.

I'm not surprised that he got the penalty for this. :|

No he was braking at the normal place and would certainly have cleanly turned the corner.. he just misjudged what was going on in front of him. Senna was indecisive but thats not a reason to run into him, Michael should have backed out and told him he was a pillock later.