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#19751 Mr2s

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 21:56

You know how they say.

The best revange is success. Michael needs to bounce back and win in Monaco. The only way left after disaster 5 races, that's how I see it.


Bounce back and beat 2 of the quicker drivers today, the 2 drivers contributing to him not win a title sinne 2004? I dont see it.

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#19752 Mr2s

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 21:58

Laughable really.. but not for the reason you think.


I dont think its laughable that you lot are calling Senna and the stewards retards. Never seen a forum so full of cry baby comments before today.

#19753 Sakae

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 21:58

You know how they say.

The best revange is success. Michael needs to bounce back and win in Monaco. The only way left after disaster 5 races, that's how I see it.

Mentally it would be boost, but to be realistic...

#19754 baddog

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 22:03

I dont think its laughable that you lot are calling Senna and the stewards retards. Never seen a forum so full of cry baby comments before today.

The stewards? a tad harsh but not at all surprising to see this penalty, it was par for the course in modern f1.

#19755 MightyMoose

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 22:08

I dont think its laughable that you lot are calling Senna and the stewards retards. Never seen a forum so full of cry baby comments before today.

Then clearly you are new and haven't yet had the chance to look at the LH/JB thread from last season.

As for "you lot", be careful about lumping everyone in the same boat, there's been plenty of comments about MS being at fault, the major gripe seems to be the level of penalty.

As with every one of the "DRIVER" threads, there are fanboys for whom the driver can never do anything wrong, but successions of posts just blasting MS achievements & his fans are equally unpleasant to read, even more so when it's by people who rarely appear on this thread. That smacks solely of the intention of trolling.

#19756 zelpre

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 22:08

Mentally it would be boost, but to be realistic...


It's not realistic, but this is the only way to revange now. Revange to FIA, to Pirelli and Hembery and to all the anti-schumi people. Just win will be satisfying for me.

#19757 ImDDAA

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 22:12

While I think Michael went in far too hot on Senna, it's also quite clear Senna shifts about a bit in the breaking zone, this definitely contributed to what happened, but I'd still lay most of the blame at Schumachers door.

#19758 Ferrari_F1_fan_2001

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 22:15

All the trolls are out today in force. So predictable :lol:

#19759 Skinnyguy

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 22:17

As with every one of the "DRIVER" threads, there are fanboys for whom the driver can never do anything wrong, but successions of posts just blasting MS achievements & his fans are equally unpleasant to read, even more so when it's by people who rarely appear on this thread. That smacks solely of the intention of trolling.


Absolutely. Trying to bring down Schu´s career on one mistake is ridiculous, and it happens everytime he does something wrong.

That´s the prize of success: haters.


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#19760 e63

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 22:18

Odd that Schumacher would be so irate about the incident since he did the excact, EXCACT same thing to Massa in Canada, 2010.

#19761 Skinnyguy

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 22:28

Odd that Schumacher would be so irate about the incident since he did the excact, EXCACT same thing to Massa in Canada, 2010.


That one was worse... Senna at least left room for him on the left. Schumacher cut across and went totally back to the left edge in front of Massa´s nose.

#19762 Disgrace

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 22:29

Odd that Schumacher would be so irate about the incident since he did the excact, EXCACT same thing to Massa in Canada, 2010.


But again, like Schumacher today, Massa shouldn't have put himself in the blind spot of the driver ahead.

#19763 exmayol

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 22:32

This isn't frustration because of being off the pace like in some races in 2010, this is frustration due to one bad young racer Senna, and a build up of races where the team mostly have left him down, although he won't admit it pubically for now. It's good to see Schumacher pisses off, he wants to do well, I think this will bold him well. He's been more then cool for a long time, but now he is seeing potential good results go fry out, he is showing just how badly he wants it. It's for us to be patient now, and for him to keep on fighting and getting angry, that's the MS people were calling for in 2010, he's back, the results will come, all of his merceedes seasons get better as they go along, and this season is the longest ever, so he still has a long way to go.


Well put, couldn't have said better.

#19764 Mr2s

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 22:34

Then clearly you are new and haven't yet had the chance to look at the LH/JB thread from last season.

As for "you lot", be careful about lumping everyone in the same boat, there's been plenty of comments about MS being at fault, the major gripe seems to be the level of penalty.

As with every one of the "DRIVER" threads, there are fanboys for whom the driver can never do anything wrong, but successions of posts just blasting MS achievements & his fans are equally unpleasant to read, even more so when it's by people who rarely appear on this thread. That smacks solely of the intention of trolling.


I'm sure I'm not the only one who follows other sports during the week and on Saturdays. I wouldn't 'lump' everyone who appears after an eventful race on a Sunday as trolls. What with it being the most controversial incident of the day, involving the best known and most controversial racing driver in the world, who just happened to be rather hypocritical for the second time this season.

The posts from fanboys, for who the driver can never do anything wrong, cause more conflict here than the genuine trolls.

Football fans are able to discuss their teams and hero players with criticism. It's always amazing to see an F1 driver defended with such vigour. Especially when they are not only some of the highest paid sportsman, but one of the few sportsman who rely so much on having better equipment than their competitors.
No wonder that fans of Michael Jordan, Carl Lewis, Michael Johnson, Pete Sampras, Roger Federer, Diego Mardonna, Lionel Messi, Lance Armstrong bulk at MSC being described here as the greatest sportsman ever.


#19765 Muz Bee

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 22:34

A bit clumsy by Bruno, very clumsy by Michael who seemed to panicfreeze in one movement. Pointless but predictable by the stewards, they seem to be fixated on blame even if the proportions may be 60/40 or 70/30 which is how I saw it. I would make one caveat on that last comment though - they have access to far more information than we have, like telemetry. It is quite possible that MS outbrake himself, which would show up, certainly the closing speed was huge.

It's a sad way for a former great to go even if he has dragged himself close at times to Nico's speed. He doesn't have an answer consistently and is vulnerable in qualifying. Still pretty respectable in terms of his age, more than respectable. But why would you? And don't give me the bit about it being fun.

#19766 Megacale

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 22:40

Schumacher isn't a force anymore and IMO is trying to assert some sort of dominance over other drivers and it isn't working out.


I don't actually agree with this, in fact it seems to be the other way around. Ever since MS came back into the sport I got the distinct feeling that the other drivers felt it necessary to assert their "dominance" over him by any means possible. I think this has a lot to do with why MS is getting into a lot of accidents as the other drivers see "michael red" whenever he is close at hand.

Look at close contacts, crashes, rear ends, being shoved off the road etc etc. Hell, even in karting that MS is doing these days the attitude is prevalent among the other drivers.

#19767 Mr2s

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 22:47

Absolutely. Trying to bring down Schu´s career on one mistake is ridiculous, and it happens every time he does something wrong.

That´s the prize of success: haters.


Another fanboy? Why can't you accept that some people just lose respect for other people in privileged postions? A super rich sportsman in one of the few sports that needs superior equipment to be successful.
Michael schumacher is highly respected and thought of in the Karting world, but at the same time, for a long time, his unsavoury incidents that marred his successful period in F1 between 1994 and 2004, lost him respect among the same people.
To label these people 'haters' is childish.
Schumacher fans need to remove their own egos from their driver before calling his critics (and he has also had many within the sport over the years) 'haters' or 'jealous'.


#19768 Skinnyguy

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 22:51

Another fanboy?


No, a former hater during the dominance. :wave:

No matter how bad he does now, his enormous achievements and skill on his peak will be there forever, no matter if he crashes every race from now on.



#19769 Mr2s

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 22:54

I don't actually agree with this, in fact it seems to be the other way around. Ever since MS came back into the sport I got the distinct feeling that the other drivers felt it necessary to assert their "dominance" over him by any means possible. I think this has a lot to do with why MS is getting into a lot of accidents as the other drivers see "michael red" whenever he is close at hand.

Look at close contacts, crashes, rear ends, being shoved off the road etc etc. Hell, even in karting that MS is doing these days the attitude is prevalent among the other drivers.


Which is ironic, because I witnessed Karting standards drop in the late 1990s.
Also, we don't have Jean Todt patrolling the pitlane asking other teams to get out of his way anymore. Ross Brawn also doesn't seem to wield the same power he had at Ferrari. Power to the point of delusion at the Nurburgring 2003 race.
We all know Formula one is about money and the sport is vastly richer and more popular today than it was when schumacher was considered by the powers as "good for the sport".

#19770 Birelman

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 23:13

Odd that Schumacher would be so irate about the incident since he did the excact, EXCACT same thing to Massa in Canada, 2010.

Lol so true! I had forgot about that!!!

#19771 Birelman

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 23:18

I don't actually agree with this, in fact it seems to be the other way around. Ever since MS came back into the sport I got the distinct feeling that the other drivers felt it necessary to assert their "dominance" over him by any means possible. I think this has a lot to do with why MS is getting into a lot of accidents as the other drivers see "michael red" whenever he is close at hand.

Look at close contacts, crashes, rear ends, being shoved off the road etc etc. Hell, even in karting that MS is doing these days the attitude is prevalent among the other drivers.

You cant be serious dude! Really? You're blaming everyone else? Forgetting about the common factor?

This is like taking a beating and showing up for work the next morning and when people ask what happened, u tell them they should check how much you hurt the other guy's fist! Lol



#19772 Mr2s

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 23:20

It's a sad way for a former great to go even if he has dragged himself close at times to Nico's speed. He doesn't have an answer consistently and is vulnerable in qualifying. Still pretty respectable in terms of his age, more than respectable. But why would you? And don't give me the bit about it being fun.


He is only here because he got a sniff of another vastly superior car when Button won the WDC and WCC for Brawn.
Brawn and schumacher have that closeness thats almost like a pact, closeness that saw Brawn take a sabbatical to remove himself from the future success of drivers at Ferrari. With Ferrari eventually going down hill.
I think it irked him to see Button end up with such a dominant car.

Remember Jean Todt told us, Michael is actually an insecure personality. Which is no bad thing to lead a sportsman to success, but obviously responsable for those unsavoury incidents and poor decisions.
Michael is a flawed genius. I can see why it's painful for many posters here (some of those actually being attacked by their fellow fans).
A less insecure driver would have given F1 fans a showdown with Kimi in the same team, then bowed out of the sport. Instead we have him almost lost as to why the tyres are no longer made for him and why drivers lower down on the grid just don't peel out of his way.

#19773 Mr2s

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 23:26

No matter how bad he does now, his enormous achievements and skill on his peak will be there forever, no matter if he crashes every race from now on.


I'm not saying he wasn't enormously skilful. But now that he is competing in a non top 2 car for probably the first time in his career, his percentage stats, that have so often been held up as proof to his greatness, are taking a rightful hammering. I say rightful, as the legends he has been compared to over the years didn't enjoy such vastly dominant cars to achieve those stats.


#19774 eff1fan

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 23:59

I don't know why you keep attacking my racing knowledge, I never claimed to know more than you, Believe what you want, it makes no difference to me, I find it pretty funny that you base your racing knowledge based on reading books, and have the cojones to say it in public! :rotfl:

I won't argue the point with you much further. yes, Senna had superior position, he was ahead, and further to the inside than Schumacher, there was nowhere for Schumacher to pass him, Senna had positioned himself well to defend where Schumacher was at the time. Senna did Flinch left, as is normal when you defend to the inside and the guy trying to overtake you hasn't pulled alongside yet, so, in that situation it is normal to reach further to the proper racing line.

I'd say you should give those stewards some racing books to read, cus it seems you think you know more than them, as Schumacher is the one with the penalty for the next race, but don't let facts get in the way of your vast book reading racing knowledge. :rolleyes:


You have made some very valid points - unfortunately arguing a point with some people in this room (and others like it) is akin to pi$$ing in a volcano.
I have enjoyed your posts.



#19775 Henrik B

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 06:05

Odd that Schumacher would be so irate about the incident since he did the excact, EXCACT same thing to Massa in Canada, 2010.


And the video: http://www.twitvid.com/C55KY

Quite similar to what happened yesterday, and I don't recall Schumacher calling himself an "idiot". Schumacher would incidentally, by todays rules, be punished for those moves both in Canada 2010 and Monza last year. Senna however left a car width (according to 2012 rules) so he's completely fine.

And please stop writing Senna moved "hard left" and other such nonsense. He went slightly left. By exaggerating you run out of words to describe movements like Rosberg in Bahrain.

#19776 jbarokF1

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 06:55

And the video: http://www.twitvid.com/C55KY

Quite similar to what happened yesterday, and I don't recall Schumacher calling himself an "idiot". Schumacher would incidentally, by todays rules, be punished for those moves both in Canada 2010 and Monza last year. Senna however left a car width (according to 2012 rules) so he's completely fine.

And please stop writing Senna moved "hard left" and other such nonsense. He went slightly left. By exaggerating you run out of words to describe movements like Rosberg in Bahrain.


And also don't forget about the way he defended against Hamilton last year...Schumi did the same lap after lap, making more than 2 moves..

#19777 ivand911

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 07:28

While I think Michael went in far too hot on Senna, it's also quite clear Senna shifts about a bit in the breaking zone, this definitely contributed to what happened, but I'd still lay most of the blame at Schumachers door.

Good post. He was too hot there. He should be more careful, it is Bruno??
About Monaco, what win, what podium? With W03? I don't think it will mater if he start 8th or 13th? That car have one lucky win. Maldonado win was much more than Nico's win, more fight , more everything. Koba pass Nico as he was not moving. This days our cars go only backwards, not like last year. Even if they were on pole yesterday they didn't have chance. I think even Lewis didn't have such pace(I could be wrong). When you hit tyre window you are 1 sec faster(see Lotus last stint).

I just wonder why nobody see banana peel that Bruno throw behind his back. :rotfl: It was so clear to me.

Edited by ivand911, 14 May 2012 - 07:33.


#19778 PoliFanAthic

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 07:35

I wouldn't hold it against MSC for calling Bruno an idiot, one has said and done worse things in anger. I am more interested to see what he will say in his next statement regarding to this matter.

#19779 glorius&victorius

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 07:48

And the video: http://www.twitvid.com/C55KY


I think Schumacher said "(karma is an) idiot"

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#19780 spacekid

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 07:49

And also don't forget about the way he defended against Hamilton last year...Schumi did the same lap after lap, making more than 2 moves..


That simply isn't comparable and you know it. There's a huge difference between the defending Schumi was doing and moving around in the braking zone like that.

#19781 Atonal

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 08:01

I haven't invested my ego in any driver. I hope that helps.

The '2s' refers to 2 stroke karting FYI.

Perhaps you can enlighten me as to why I must automatically be a fan of another driver to state the facts about a driver trying to blame another today? This seems to be the mentality of most MSC fans.


Fair enough. My faith in humanity is restored, there are still free spirits with absoultely no personal interests or egos involved while evaluating performances. I try to do that myself most of the time, but alas I am a mere mortal and have succumbed to some highly unreasonable turns of phrase while trying to defend Michael over the years. I have mellowed down over the years though :)

I do agree with the basic thrust of your arguments especially about Schumacher version 2. I don't however agree with your comments about his first career. We will agree to disagree :)

#19782 Hacklerf

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 08:40

5 place penalty? this is stupid penalty, racing incident, no more no less

#19783 puxanando

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 09:15

Darren Heath ‏ @F1Photographer
Just how much longer will #f1 #mercedes put up with #schumacher ? Rumours of a big name replacement are gathering a pace.

:eek:

#19784 Jovanotti

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 09:16

I think Schumacher said "(karma is an) idiot"

:lol: :up:

#19785 Sakae

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 09:22

I wouldn't hold it against MSC for calling Bruno an idiot, one has said and done worse things in anger. I am more interested to see what he will say in his next statement regarding to this matter.


In post-race interview he speaks about it. (I am not sure if you have seen this).

http://www.formula1....12/5/13346.html

#19786 Ferrari_F1_fan_2001

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 09:25

:eek:


Well, I think Schumacher will quit rather than be sacked. They let him down 3 times this year (Aus, China and Bahrain with DRS) and countless other times with DRS problems in 2011 as well. That is awful and very poor.

As Sean said, Schumacher has been very quiet so far in criticism of the team. Let's hope for a clean weekend but I fear the writing is on the wall, Schumacher will not renew with Mercedes for 2013.

#19787 Wade

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 09:29

Yeah no way, unless he wins a race or two and racks in some podiums, I'm afriad he's not gonna come back.

#19788 ali_M

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 09:30

As Sean said, Schumacher has been very quiet so far in criticism of the team. Let's hope for a clean weekend but I fear the writing is on the wall, Schumacher will not renew with Mercedes for 2013.


If his luck settles down, then he'll likely stay out the season. Let's see what happens. However, even if he doesn't collide with anyone and has no mechanical failures, I doubt that he'd renew if they fail to get another win or podium finish.

OTOH, Michael has a way of never giving up. He could surprise us as well (he stays for another year), so long as the team is willing to have him driving.

Edited by ali_M, 14 May 2012 - 09:32.


#19789 Ellios

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 09:38

:eek:


Darren Heath hasn't had a good word to say about MSC for years now - not say there's no truth behind his tweet but he's known for bitching when it come to MSC


#19790 Ferrari_F1_fan_2001

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 10:15

If his luck settles down, then he'll likely stay out the season. Let's see what happens. However, even if he doesn't collide with anyone and has no mechanical failures, I doubt that he'd renew if they fail to get another win or podium finish.

OTOH, Michael has a way of never giving up. He could surprise us as well (he stays for another year), so long as the team is willing to have him driving.


It was an ill-fated comeback but hindsight is a wonderful thing. Ferrari and Luca pushed him out when he had another 2 good seasons left in him IMO.

Even if he wins again I think he'll stay retired. I was hoping for 100 wins (it did look possible) to end the career but a combination of bad judgement, poor equipment, bad strategy and the team letting him down numerous times (gearbox, pitstops, DRS DRS DRS DRS in 2011 etc) all have come to this;us urging the most decorated F1 pilot of all time 'please retire, this is hurting your legacy'.

#19791 Raelene

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 10:18

:eek:



that's actually a very stupid post from heath....I wonder if he said "I wonder how long MSC will put up with Mercedes"...after the first 4 races.

#19792 Diablobb81

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 10:26

Heath has an unhealthy hate for Michael. Nothing new.

But if the results won't come (for whatever reason) they won't continue in 2013.

#19793 PoliFanAthic

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 10:53

In post-race interview he speaks about it. (I am not sure if you have seen this).

http://www.formula1....12/5/13346.html


I think this was made before the penalty was confirmed, so that's more what I'm looking forward to.

Regarding his replacement, I think it would be ridiculous at this point to talk about that, unless he's already decided he won't be going ahead any more.

#19794 Lelouch

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 11:14

And the video: http://www.twitvid.com/C55KY


Thank you. I think it was mostly his disappointment speaking i am pretty sure he knows he has done worse things than what Senna did after all.

As for the replacement my feelings are that the Mercedes - Schumacher combo will never work out so i don't know what is the best option for both sides, but i hope he won't stop racing.

In situations like these you can't blame only one side, Schumacher looked pretty decent in the first 3 weekends and i think he showed a lot of promise for this year and now once again everyone is pointing at him. But seriously his W03 behaves more like a W02 in the last 2 weekends and i don't expect him to be able to overcome the problems at this age.

Something is wrong at Mercedes for both drivers and even the fact that they can't set a fastest lap in race ( with the exception of China maybe i wasn't watching the live timing ) even when they put fresh tires while we have seen almost every other team being fastest at some point of a race, shows something. In 5 races they made the W03 + Pirelli combo work only once and only Rosberg found the perfect balance. So let's not blame it all on Schumacher when it was only the first time this year that he was indeed at fault.

#19795 Clatter

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 11:21

5 place penalty? this is stupid penalty, racing incident, no more no less


Correct penalty and follows precedence for a race ending crash.

#19796 Tardis40

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 11:32

Ever since MS came back into the sport I got the distinct feeling that the other drivers felt it necessary to assert their "dominance" over him by any means possible.


You're not alone in that feeling.

I believe this is the second time Senna has caused such an incident. There are much more talented drivers available. (Jaime for one) He needs to go soon.



#19797 Paul Parker

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 11:51

Thank you. I think it was mostly his disappointment speaking i am pretty sure he knows he has done worse things than what Senna did after all.

As for the replacement my feelings are that the Mercedes - Schumacher combo will never work out so i don't know what is the best option for both sides, but i hope he won't stop racing.

In situations like these you can't blame only one side, Schumacher looked pretty decent in the first 3 weekends and i think he showed a lot of promise for this year and now once again everyone is pointing at him. But seriously his W03 behaves more like a W02 in the last 2 weekends and i don't expect him to be able to overcome the problems at this age.

Something is wrong at Mercedes for both drivers and even the fact that they can't set a fastest lap in race ( with the exception of China maybe i wasn't watching the live timing ) even when they put fresh tires while we have seen almost every other team being fastest at some point of a race, shows something. In 5 races they made the W03 + Pirelli combo work only once and only Rosberg found the perfect balance. So let's not blame it all on Schumacher when it was only the first time this year that he was indeed at fault.


In my opinion the tyres currently in use seem to vary not only from race to race, but also from team to team even at the same race which can, and has I suspect, resulted in the fastest car/driver combo not being able to win.

This inconsistency is unacceptable and in my opinion the rubber should be durable enough to last the whole race without degrading so drastically, although teams should be allowed to change to fresh rubber if they want to.

Schumacher was right to complain about the tyres and even acknowledging the welcome and varied results of the first 5 GPs I personally do not want said results to be decided by who manages their apparently inconsistent rubber the best.

#19798 aliasj

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 11:57

Alternative angle of the Schumacher / Senna crash. :)

http://www.youtube.c...eature=youtu.be


#19799 aliasj

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 12:02

Darren Heath hasn't had a good word to say about MSC for years now - not say there's no truth behind his tweet but he's known for bitching when it come to MSC


Darren Heath is an arse. Totally biased and utterly rubbish. Nonetheless he's not a journalist, so he's free to express his opinions.

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#19800 RacingReporter

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 12:37

You're not alone in that feeling.

I believe this is the second time Senna has caused such an incident. There are much more talented drivers available. (Jaime for one) He needs to go soon.

F1Racing recently had an interesting take on that one when interviewing Schumacher, it got up to the part where Hamilton HAD to pass Schumacher even during a test. Then Monza came. Other guys too.

Senna was as guilty as Schumacher in Canada 2010 vs Massa. But Senna is nowhere near Schumachers (aged) skillset, he qualified very well in Belgium only to break Alguersuari's car in pieces. What a ****up. Schumacher incident in Brazil wasn't very professional either and then this. Let's say I'm not very fond of his driving, although he is a nice guy. But that's just about it.

Edited by RacingReporter, 14 May 2012 - 12:42.