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#19751 Birelman

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 18:51

In what universe is that true? Give me some of that too, it must be good stuff :clap:

He was being sarcastic. :)

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#19752 MidKnight

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 18:52

What Is his reward? Exactly?


Oh now drivers are free to weave around in the DRS zone - while the car behind you is carrying significantly more speed...that's a wonderful precedent to set. But you know you are the racing expert so do tell us all how weaving back and forth in DRS zone is great race craft... :rolleyes:

#19753 jj2728

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 18:55

I don't know why you keep attacking my racing knowledge, I never claimed to know more than you, Believe what you want, it makes no difference to me, I find it pretty funny that you base your racing knowledge based on reading books, and have the cojones to say it in public! :rotfl:

I won't argue the point with you much further. yes, Senna had superior position, he was ahead, and further to the inside than Schumacher, there was nowhere for Schumacher to pass him, Senna had positioned himself well to defend where Schumacher was at the time. Senna did Flinch left, as is normal when you defend to the inside and the guy trying to overtake you hasn't pulled alongside yet, so, in that situation it is normal to reach further to the proper racing line.

I'd say you should give those stewards some racing books to read, cus it seems you think you know more than them, as Schumacher is the one with the penalty for the next race, but don't let facts get in the way of your vast book reading racing knowledge. :rolleyes:


I wouldn't give much credence to someone with a grand total of 38 posts who likes to think he's an expert and slings insults. Just another Schumacher fanboy who can't see that it was Schumacher's boneheaded move that caused the accident. The stewards made the right call.

#19754 RacingReporter

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 19:00

I wouldn't give much credence to someone with a grand total of 38 posts who likes to think he's an expert and slings insults. Just another Schumacher fanboy who can't see that it was Schumacher's boneheaded move that caused the accident. The stewards made the right call.

Because 1740 posts change your status from 'visitor' into 'pro'?

#19755 Birelman

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 19:03

Oh now drivers are free to weave around in the DRS zone - while the car behind you is carrying significantly more speed...that's a wonderful precedent to set. But you know you are the racing expert so do tell us all how weaving back and forth in DRS zone is great race craft... :rolleyes:

Aaaaaaaand how exactly did that reward Senna? Last time I checked his car was parked in the kitty litter.

I won't even argue your statement of him "weaving around in the braking zone". I don't agree, and leave it at that

#19756 Sakae

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 19:06

Was Senna braking too early?

#19757 DutchCruijff

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 19:09

Was Senna braking too early?

Only due to his tyres.

#19758 exmayol

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 19:32

he didn't deliver in more than 2 years were rosberg did...

and make the clowns complete by adding MS 2010-2012


I think everyone agrees in 2010 MS was rusty and got his ass handed to him on merit. I disagree about 2011 and 2012. Get you info right.

#19759 MightyMoose

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 19:41

Ok guys, posts have been deleted by more than 1 moderator.

The debate thread is about MS, principally concerning today and his comeback, you can discuss Senna, you can even discuss other similar instances. But you will NOT under any circumstances resort to abusing each other here.

Additionally, it is as clear as day that some people have only appeared here to troll. Patience is running thin with those posters who seem incapable of making any comment without resorting to "karma" or "payback" or previous indiscretions. For the last time, it is trolling/flaming and it stops now, because otherwise you will be stopped from enjoying the ability to post here.

That should be clear enough? Please don't push your luck here any further.

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#19760 David M. Kane

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 19:48

5 spot grid penalty for MS in Monaco announced.

#19761 schubacca

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 19:55

5 spot grid penalty for MS in Monaco announced.



And what a joke it is.

Racing incident plain and simple, where I can say that MS should have exercised better judgement. But the stewarts have essentially ruined MS's Monaco GP with a penalty.



#19762 Longtimefan

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 20:04

Its stupid and as stupid as the Hamilton penalty was.

are the spanish stewards power hungry?

Hamilton penalty - wrong (meaning, far far too harsh)
Massa DT - wrong
Schumi penalty - wrong

Crazy stewarding indeed.


#19763 Tardis40

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 20:35

5 spot grid penalty for MS in Monaco announced.


Utterly ridiculous. The stewards need to be investigated.

Edited by Tardis40, 13 May 2012 - 20:36.


#19764 spinster

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 20:44

I think everyone agrees in 2010 MS was rusty and got his ass handed to him on merit. I disagree about 2011 and 2012. Get you info right.


so tell me where he delivered?

#19765 Schumacher7

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 20:48

The penalty is a bit harsh as it was an accident but Michael was almost 100% at fault, Bruno moved slightly but not enough to cause Michael to try and alter the Williams' rear aero. It's probably his reaction afterwards that caused it as well, calling Bruno an idiot, if he'd just said oh well that's racing like he did when Petrov hit him last year I think he would have been given a reprimand at worst.

#19766 baddog

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 20:50

Michael's own fault really, everyone knows Senna is unpredictable and clueless, should have stayed well away from him. In the end Senna did not keep going left as it looked like he would, and Michael was too late to realise this.. and if you hit the back of the car in front it is usually going to go down as your fault.

#19767 ali_M

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 21:06

I watched and I was disappointed. I'm a huge Schumi fan. However, this is the first time where I saw a flash of his senior years manifesting. I doubt that he'd have made the corner if given enough room. So off was his judgement of the situation.

I'm not surprised that he got the penalty for this. :|

#19768 baddog

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 21:09

I watched and I was disappointed. I'm a huge Schumi fan. However, this is the first time where I saw a flash of his senior years manifesting. I doubt that he'd have made the corner if given enough room. So off was his judgement of the situation.

I'm not surprised that he got the penalty for this. :|

No he was braking at the normal place and would certainly have cleanly turned the corner.. he just misjudged what was going on in front of him. Senna was indecisive but thats not a reason to run into him, Michael should have backed out and told him he was a pillock later.

#19769 Dmitriy_Guller

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 21:21

I'm not a fan of Schumacher, but this penalty was bullshit. You can't change lanes abruptly in the braking zones. That's swooping and squatting.

#19770 baddog

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 21:28

I'm not a fan of Schumacher, but this penalty was bullshit. You can't change lanes abruptly in the braking zones. That's swooping and squatting.


I thought that, but on re-watching Senna's (definitely erratic) behaviour was not outright weaving, he just couldn't make his mind up what to do which causes the driver behind to not know what you are going to do and, in this case, make the wrong call.

I think half the grid would have hit him, but he maintains 'plausible deniability'

#19771 Sakae

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 21:34

Schumi got penalty, but after reading an interview with him, I think that I understand his point. In close racing some backmarkers are simply not good enough for F1 as they are lacking forward think what will happen if they do this or that. Michael needs to end up in top five during quali, and leave those guys far back. There is no other way. The bad season just continues.

#19772 F1ultimate

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 21:34

Both drivers are at fault, especially Senna for being indecisive about whether to defend or to let Schumi pass. There shouldn't have been a penalty handed out.

#19773 Ferrari_F1_fan_2001

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 21:36

Senna hasn't aggressively defended himself in his statements; that does show some feeling of culpability on his part.

Both are to blame IMO; a penalty is harsh but that's the way the cookie crumbles.

However, Schumacher needs to sort himself out. There have been far TOO many incidents involving other drivers over the last 2 and a bit seasons. Look at Nico, he isn't spectacular (maybe that is why he doesn't get enough credit) but he is sensible, and just gets his head down and gets on with the job. Schumacher isn't a force anymore and IMO is trying to assert some sort of dominance over other drivers and it isn't working out.

His achievements stand out head and shoulders above the others' but he needs to sit down, calm down and remember what brought him all that success in the first place; he may still be good in the technical debriefs and in development but it seems like he is leaving his brain behind too.

3 DNF's in 5 races and the lowest placed points scoring driver. Woeful. I still admire the man and he is a legend but unless he calms down and stops making mistakes, his reputation will continue to degrade.

#19774 exmayol

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 21:36

so tell me where he delivered?


Last time I checked 2011 rankings he was just 13 points off his team mate who according to you have delivered. To me 13 points is rather an insufficient deficit to claim MS has not delivered. Those 13 points by the way happen to be the closest team mate gap among big teams in 2011.

Regarding 2012, noone can't deny MS had a lot of bad luck and Spain was the only race he made a mistake. One race out of five. How many drivers this year were error free? Every weekend so far, including Spain, MS was there up to speed, by no means looking as if he is not in a position to deliver.

Care to elaborate on your criteria of delivery?

#19775 Mr2s

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 21:36

Now I know you aren't to be taken seriously! Good grief!


its easy. Ferrari were 3rd best team when Michael Joined, 4ht best when Alonso joined.

Alesi and Berger had a win and poles and broke up the dominant Williams and Benetton many times. Accoding to michael schuamcher fans, this was a team in dire straits. Good grief indeed!

#19776 Ferrari_F1_fan_2001

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 21:39

Schumi got penalty, but after reading an interview with him, I think that I understand his point. In close racing some backmarkers are simply not good enough for F1 as they are lacking forward think what will happen if they do this or that. Michael needs to end up in top five during quali, and leave those guys far back. There is no other way. The bad season just continues.



It looked promising in the first 3 races, all top 4 qualifying slots (4th, 3rd and 2nd). I hope the Mercedes is good around Monaco otherwise I'm afraid we'll just see another Barcelona race with Rosberg (whose confidence must be growing by the minute) romping ahead. The ironic thing is that isn't pace that is Schumacher's issue this time around.

#19777 Mr2s

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 21:42

Mr2s can you kindly enlighten me as to which driver you prefer/follow so that I can filter out from which side you are coming from or are you one of those completely impartial petrol heads just appreciating good drivers and teams?

I suspect perhaps Saint Alonso of Catalan? Shouldn't it be Mr0.6s then? :)


I haven't invested my ego in any driver. I hope that helps.

The '2s' refers to 2 stroke karting FYI.

Perhaps you can enlighten me as to why I must automatically be a fan of another driver to state the facts about a driver trying to blame another today? This seems to be the mentality of most MSC fans.


#19778 baddog

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 21:43

Senna hasn't aggressively defended himself in his statements; that does show some feeling of culpability on his part.

Both are to blame IMO; a penalty is harsh but that's the way the cookie crumbles.

However, Schumacher needs to sort himself out. There have been far TOO many incidents involving other drivers over the last 2 and a bit seasons. Look at Nico, he isn't spectacular (maybe that is why he doesn't get enough credit) but he is sensible, and just gets his head down and gets on with the job. Schumacher isn't a force anymore and IMO is trying to assert some sort of dominance over other drivers and it isn't working out.

His achievements stand out head and shoulders above the others' but he needs to sit down, calm down and remember what brought him all that success in the first place; he may still be good in the technical debriefs and in development but it seems like he is leaving his brain behind too.

3 DNF's in 5 races and the lowest placed points scoring driver. Woeful. I still admire the man and he is a legend but unless he calms down and stops making mistakes, his reputation will continue to degrade.


2 dnfs for mechanicals, one dnf due to an error. One race ruined by someone else's mistake,one qualy fail due to mechanicals. Michael has cleaned his act up entirely and made ONE real error this year so far.

#19779 Sakae

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 21:49

Five places suspension in Monaco is a death sentence. Michael can focus on the race after, but he will not under normal circumstances reach podium there. Impossible task with that crap that Hembery calls tires.

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#19780 zelpre

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 21:50

You know how they say.

The best revange is success. Michael needs to bounce back and win in Monaco. The only way left after disaster 5 races, that's how I see it.

#19781 baddog

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 21:53

But way ahead in the championship :lol:

Laughable really.. but not for the reason you think.

#19782 Mr2s

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 21:56

You know how they say.

The best revange is success. Michael needs to bounce back and win in Monaco. The only way left after disaster 5 races, that's how I see it.


Bounce back and beat 2 of the quicker drivers today, the 2 drivers contributing to him not win a title sinne 2004? I dont see it.

#19783 Mr2s

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 21:58

Laughable really.. but not for the reason you think.


I dont think its laughable that you lot are calling Senna and the stewards retards. Never seen a forum so full of cry baby comments before today.

#19784 Sakae

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 21:58

You know how they say.

The best revange is success. Michael needs to bounce back and win in Monaco. The only way left after disaster 5 races, that's how I see it.

Mentally it would be boost, but to be realistic...

#19785 baddog

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 22:03

I dont think its laughable that you lot are calling Senna and the stewards retards. Never seen a forum so full of cry baby comments before today.

The stewards? a tad harsh but not at all surprising to see this penalty, it was par for the course in modern f1.

#19786 MightyMoose

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 22:08

I dont think its laughable that you lot are calling Senna and the stewards retards. Never seen a forum so full of cry baby comments before today.

Then clearly you are new and haven't yet had the chance to look at the LH/JB thread from last season.

As for "you lot", be careful about lumping everyone in the same boat, there's been plenty of comments about MS being at fault, the major gripe seems to be the level of penalty.

As with every one of the "DRIVER" threads, there are fanboys for whom the driver can never do anything wrong, but successions of posts just blasting MS achievements & his fans are equally unpleasant to read, even more so when it's by people who rarely appear on this thread. That smacks solely of the intention of trolling.

#19787 zelpre

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 22:08

Mentally it would be boost, but to be realistic...


It's not realistic, but this is the only way to revange now. Revange to FIA, to Pirelli and Hembery and to all the anti-schumi people. Just win will be satisfying for me.

#19788 ImDDAA

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 22:12

While I think Michael went in far too hot on Senna, it's also quite clear Senna shifts about a bit in the breaking zone, this definitely contributed to what happened, but I'd still lay most of the blame at Schumachers door.

#19789 Ferrari_F1_fan_2001

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 22:15

All the trolls are out today in force. So predictable :lol:

#19790 Skinnyguy

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 22:17

As with every one of the "DRIVER" threads, there are fanboys for whom the driver can never do anything wrong, but successions of posts just blasting MS achievements & his fans are equally unpleasant to read, even more so when it's by people who rarely appear on this thread. That smacks solely of the intention of trolling.


Absolutely. Trying to bring down Schu´s career on one mistake is ridiculous, and it happens everytime he does something wrong.

That´s the prize of success: haters.


#19791 e63

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 22:18

Odd that Schumacher would be so irate about the incident since he did the excact, EXCACT same thing to Massa in Canada, 2010.

#19792 Skinnyguy

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 22:28

Odd that Schumacher would be so irate about the incident since he did the excact, EXCACT same thing to Massa in Canada, 2010.


That one was worse... Senna at least left room for him on the left. Schumacher cut across and went totally back to the left edge in front of Massa´s nose.

#19793 Disgrace

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 22:29

Odd that Schumacher would be so irate about the incident since he did the excact, EXCACT same thing to Massa in Canada, 2010.


But again, like Schumacher today, Massa shouldn't have put himself in the blind spot of the driver ahead.

#19794 exmayol

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 22:32

This isn't frustration because of being off the pace like in some races in 2010, this is frustration due to one bad young racer Senna, and a build up of races where the team mostly have left him down, although he won't admit it pubically for now. It's good to see Schumacher pisses off, he wants to do well, I think this will bold him well. He's been more then cool for a long time, but now he is seeing potential good results go fry out, he is showing just how badly he wants it. It's for us to be patient now, and for him to keep on fighting and getting angry, that's the MS people were calling for in 2010, he's back, the results will come, all of his merceedes seasons get better as they go along, and this season is the longest ever, so he still has a long way to go.


Well put, couldn't have said better.

#19795 Mr2s

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 22:34

Then clearly you are new and haven't yet had the chance to look at the LH/JB thread from last season.

As for "you lot", be careful about lumping everyone in the same boat, there's been plenty of comments about MS being at fault, the major gripe seems to be the level of penalty.

As with every one of the "DRIVER" threads, there are fanboys for whom the driver can never do anything wrong, but successions of posts just blasting MS achievements & his fans are equally unpleasant to read, even more so when it's by people who rarely appear on this thread. That smacks solely of the intention of trolling.


I'm sure I'm not the only one who follows other sports during the week and on Saturdays. I wouldn't 'lump' everyone who appears after an eventful race on a Sunday as trolls. What with it being the most controversial incident of the day, involving the best known and most controversial racing driver in the world, who just happened to be rather hypocritical for the second time this season.

The posts from fanboys, for who the driver can never do anything wrong, cause more conflict here than the genuine trolls.

Football fans are able to discuss their teams and hero players with criticism. It's always amazing to see an F1 driver defended with such vigour. Especially when they are not only some of the highest paid sportsman, but one of the few sportsman who rely so much on having better equipment than their competitors.
No wonder that fans of Michael Jordan, Carl Lewis, Michael Johnson, Pete Sampras, Roger Federer, Diego Mardonna, Lionel Messi, Lance Armstrong bulk at MSC being described here as the greatest sportsman ever.


#19796 Muz Bee

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 22:34

A bit clumsy by Bruno, very clumsy by Michael who seemed to panicfreeze in one movement. Pointless but predictable by the stewards, they seem to be fixated on blame even if the proportions may be 60/40 or 70/30 which is how I saw it. I would make one caveat on that last comment though - they have access to far more information than we have, like telemetry. It is quite possible that MS outbrake himself, which would show up, certainly the closing speed was huge.

It's a sad way for a former great to go even if he has dragged himself close at times to Nico's speed. He doesn't have an answer consistently and is vulnerable in qualifying. Still pretty respectable in terms of his age, more than respectable. But why would you? And don't give me the bit about it being fun.

#19797 Megacale

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 22:40

Schumacher isn't a force anymore and IMO is trying to assert some sort of dominance over other drivers and it isn't working out.


I don't actually agree with this, in fact it seems to be the other way around. Ever since MS came back into the sport I got the distinct feeling that the other drivers felt it necessary to assert their "dominance" over him by any means possible. I think this has a lot to do with why MS is getting into a lot of accidents as the other drivers see "michael red" whenever he is close at hand.

Look at close contacts, crashes, rear ends, being shoved off the road etc etc. Hell, even in karting that MS is doing these days the attitude is prevalent among the other drivers.

#19798 Mr2s

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 22:47

Absolutely. Trying to bring down Schu´s career on one mistake is ridiculous, and it happens every time he does something wrong.

That´s the prize of success: haters.


Another fanboy? Why can't you accept that some people just lose respect for other people in privileged postions? A super rich sportsman in one of the few sports that needs superior equipment to be successful.
Michael schumacher is highly respected and thought of in the Karting world, but at the same time, for a long time, his unsavoury incidents that marred his successful period in F1 between 1994 and 2004, lost him respect among the same people.
To label these people 'haters' is childish.
Schumacher fans need to remove their own egos from their driver before calling his critics (and he has also had many within the sport over the years) 'haters' or 'jealous'.


#19799 Skinnyguy

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 22:51

Another fanboy?


No, a former hater during the dominance. :wave:

No matter how bad he does now, his enormous achievements and skill on his peak will be there forever, no matter if he crashes every race from now on.



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#19800 Mr2s

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 22:54

I don't actually agree with this, in fact it seems to be the other way around. Ever since MS came back into the sport I got the distinct feeling that the other drivers felt it necessary to assert their "dominance" over him by any means possible. I think this has a lot to do with why MS is getting into a lot of accidents as the other drivers see "michael red" whenever he is close at hand.

Look at close contacts, crashes, rear ends, being shoved off the road etc etc. Hell, even in karting that MS is doing these days the attitude is prevalent among the other drivers.


Which is ironic, because I witnessed Karting standards drop in the late 1990s.
Also, we don't have Jean Todt patrolling the pitlane asking other teams to get out of his way anymore. Ross Brawn also doesn't seem to wield the same power he had at Ferrari. Power to the point of delusion at the Nurburgring 2003 race.
We all know Formula one is about money and the sport is vastly richer and more popular today than it was when schumacher was considered by the powers as "good for the sport".