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#19751 baddog

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 21:28

I'm not a fan of Schumacher, but this penalty was bullshit. You can't change lanes abruptly in the braking zones. That's swooping and squatting.


I thought that, but on re-watching Senna's (definitely erratic) behaviour was not outright weaving, he just couldn't make his mind up what to do which causes the driver behind to not know what you are going to do and, in this case, make the wrong call.

I think half the grid would have hit him, but he maintains 'plausible deniability'

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#19752 Sakae

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 21:34

Schumi got penalty, but after reading an interview with him, I think that I understand his point. In close racing some backmarkers are simply not good enough for F1 as they are lacking forward think what will happen if they do this or that. Michael needs to end up in top five during quali, and leave those guys far back. There is no other way. The bad season just continues.

#19753 F1ultimate

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 21:34

Both drivers are at fault, especially Senna for being indecisive about whether to defend or to let Schumi pass. There shouldn't have been a penalty handed out.

#19754 Ferrari_F1_fan_2001

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 21:36

Senna hasn't aggressively defended himself in his statements; that does show some feeling of culpability on his part.

Both are to blame IMO; a penalty is harsh but that's the way the cookie crumbles.

However, Schumacher needs to sort himself out. There have been far TOO many incidents involving other drivers over the last 2 and a bit seasons. Look at Nico, he isn't spectacular (maybe that is why he doesn't get enough credit) but he is sensible, and just gets his head down and gets on with the job. Schumacher isn't a force anymore and IMO is trying to assert some sort of dominance over other drivers and it isn't working out.

His achievements stand out head and shoulders above the others' but he needs to sit down, calm down and remember what brought him all that success in the first place; he may still be good in the technical debriefs and in development but it seems like he is leaving his brain behind too.

3 DNF's in 5 races and the lowest placed points scoring driver. Woeful. I still admire the man and he is a legend but unless he calms down and stops making mistakes, his reputation will continue to degrade.

#19755 exmayol

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 21:36

so tell me where he delivered?


Last time I checked 2011 rankings he was just 13 points off his team mate who according to you have delivered. To me 13 points is rather an insufficient deficit to claim MS has not delivered. Those 13 points by the way happen to be the closest team mate gap among big teams in 2011.

Regarding 2012, noone can't deny MS had a lot of bad luck and Spain was the only race he made a mistake. One race out of five. How many drivers this year were error free? Every weekend so far, including Spain, MS was there up to speed, by no means looking as if he is not in a position to deliver.

Care to elaborate on your criteria of delivery?

#19756 Mr2s

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 21:36

Now I know you aren't to be taken seriously! Good grief!


its easy. Ferrari were 3rd best team when Michael Joined, 4ht best when Alonso joined.

Alesi and Berger had a win and poles and broke up the dominant Williams and Benetton many times. Accoding to michael schuamcher fans, this was a team in dire straits. Good grief indeed!

#19757 Ferrari_F1_fan_2001

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 21:39

Schumi got penalty, but after reading an interview with him, I think that I understand his point. In close racing some backmarkers are simply not good enough for F1 as they are lacking forward think what will happen if they do this or that. Michael needs to end up in top five during quali, and leave those guys far back. There is no other way. The bad season just continues.



It looked promising in the first 3 races, all top 4 qualifying slots (4th, 3rd and 2nd). I hope the Mercedes is good around Monaco otherwise I'm afraid we'll just see another Barcelona race with Rosberg (whose confidence must be growing by the minute) romping ahead. The ironic thing is that isn't pace that is Schumacher's issue this time around.

#19758 Mr2s

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 21:42

Mr2s can you kindly enlighten me as to which driver you prefer/follow so that I can filter out from which side you are coming from or are you one of those completely impartial petrol heads just appreciating good drivers and teams?

I suspect perhaps Saint Alonso of Catalan? Shouldn't it be Mr0.6s then? :)


I haven't invested my ego in any driver. I hope that helps.

The '2s' refers to 2 stroke karting FYI.

Perhaps you can enlighten me as to why I must automatically be a fan of another driver to state the facts about a driver trying to blame another today? This seems to be the mentality of most MSC fans.


#19759 baddog

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 21:43

Senna hasn't aggressively defended himself in his statements; that does show some feeling of culpability on his part.

Both are to blame IMO; a penalty is harsh but that's the way the cookie crumbles.

However, Schumacher needs to sort himself out. There have been far TOO many incidents involving other drivers over the last 2 and a bit seasons. Look at Nico, he isn't spectacular (maybe that is why he doesn't get enough credit) but he is sensible, and just gets his head down and gets on with the job. Schumacher isn't a force anymore and IMO is trying to assert some sort of dominance over other drivers and it isn't working out.

His achievements stand out head and shoulders above the others' but he needs to sit down, calm down and remember what brought him all that success in the first place; he may still be good in the technical debriefs and in development but it seems like he is leaving his brain behind too.

3 DNF's in 5 races and the lowest placed points scoring driver. Woeful. I still admire the man and he is a legend but unless he calms down and stops making mistakes, his reputation will continue to degrade.


2 dnfs for mechanicals, one dnf due to an error. One race ruined by someone else's mistake,one qualy fail due to mechanicals. Michael has cleaned his act up entirely and made ONE real error this year so far.

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#19760 Sakae

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 21:49

Five places suspension in Monaco is a death sentence. Michael can focus on the race after, but he will not under normal circumstances reach podium there. Impossible task with that crap that Hembery calls tires.

#19761 zelpre

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 21:50

You know how they say.

The best revange is success. Michael needs to bounce back and win in Monaco. The only way left after disaster 5 races, that's how I see it.

#19762 baddog

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 21:53

But way ahead in the championship :lol:

Laughable really.. but not for the reason you think.

#19763 Mr2s

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 21:56

You know how they say.

The best revange is success. Michael needs to bounce back and win in Monaco. The only way left after disaster 5 races, that's how I see it.


Bounce back and beat 2 of the quicker drivers today, the 2 drivers contributing to him not win a title sinne 2004? I dont see it.

#19764 Mr2s

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 21:58

Laughable really.. but not for the reason you think.


I dont think its laughable that you lot are calling Senna and the stewards retards. Never seen a forum so full of cry baby comments before today.

#19765 Sakae

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 21:58

You know how they say.

The best revange is success. Michael needs to bounce back and win in Monaco. The only way left after disaster 5 races, that's how I see it.

Mentally it would be boost, but to be realistic...

#19766 baddog

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 22:03

I dont think its laughable that you lot are calling Senna and the stewards retards. Never seen a forum so full of cry baby comments before today.

The stewards? a tad harsh but not at all surprising to see this penalty, it was par for the course in modern f1.

#19767 MightyMoose

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 22:08

I dont think its laughable that you lot are calling Senna and the stewards retards. Never seen a forum so full of cry baby comments before today.

Then clearly you are new and haven't yet had the chance to look at the LH/JB thread from last season.

As for "you lot", be careful about lumping everyone in the same boat, there's been plenty of comments about MS being at fault, the major gripe seems to be the level of penalty.

As with every one of the "DRIVER" threads, there are fanboys for whom the driver can never do anything wrong, but successions of posts just blasting MS achievements & his fans are equally unpleasant to read, even more so when it's by people who rarely appear on this thread. That smacks solely of the intention of trolling.

#19768 zelpre

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 22:08

Mentally it would be boost, but to be realistic...


It's not realistic, but this is the only way to revange now. Revange to FIA, to Pirelli and Hembery and to all the anti-schumi people. Just win will be satisfying for me.

#19769 ImDDAA

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 22:12

While I think Michael went in far too hot on Senna, it's also quite clear Senna shifts about a bit in the breaking zone, this definitely contributed to what happened, but I'd still lay most of the blame at Schumachers door.

#19770 Ferrari_F1_fan_2001

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 22:15

All the trolls are out today in force. So predictable :lol:

#19771 Skinnyguy

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 22:17

As with every one of the "DRIVER" threads, there are fanboys for whom the driver can never do anything wrong, but successions of posts just blasting MS achievements & his fans are equally unpleasant to read, even more so when it's by people who rarely appear on this thread. That smacks solely of the intention of trolling.


Absolutely. Trying to bring down Schu´s career on one mistake is ridiculous, and it happens everytime he does something wrong.

That´s the prize of success: haters.


#19772 e63

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 22:18

Odd that Schumacher would be so irate about the incident since he did the excact, EXCACT same thing to Massa in Canada, 2010.

#19773 Skinnyguy

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 22:28

Odd that Schumacher would be so irate about the incident since he did the excact, EXCACT same thing to Massa in Canada, 2010.


That one was worse... Senna at least left room for him on the left. Schumacher cut across and went totally back to the left edge in front of Massa´s nose.

#19774 Disgrace

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 22:29

Odd that Schumacher would be so irate about the incident since he did the excact, EXCACT same thing to Massa in Canada, 2010.


But again, like Schumacher today, Massa shouldn't have put himself in the blind spot of the driver ahead.

#19775 exmayol

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 22:32

This isn't frustration because of being off the pace like in some races in 2010, this is frustration due to one bad young racer Senna, and a build up of races where the team mostly have left him down, although he won't admit it pubically for now. It's good to see Schumacher pisses off, he wants to do well, I think this will bold him well. He's been more then cool for a long time, but now he is seeing potential good results go fry out, he is showing just how badly he wants it. It's for us to be patient now, and for him to keep on fighting and getting angry, that's the MS people were calling for in 2010, he's back, the results will come, all of his merceedes seasons get better as they go along, and this season is the longest ever, so he still has a long way to go.


Well put, couldn't have said better.

#19776 Mr2s

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 22:34

Then clearly you are new and haven't yet had the chance to look at the LH/JB thread from last season.

As for "you lot", be careful about lumping everyone in the same boat, there's been plenty of comments about MS being at fault, the major gripe seems to be the level of penalty.

As with every one of the "DRIVER" threads, there are fanboys for whom the driver can never do anything wrong, but successions of posts just blasting MS achievements & his fans are equally unpleasant to read, even more so when it's by people who rarely appear on this thread. That smacks solely of the intention of trolling.


I'm sure I'm not the only one who follows other sports during the week and on Saturdays. I wouldn't 'lump' everyone who appears after an eventful race on a Sunday as trolls. What with it being the most controversial incident of the day, involving the best known and most controversial racing driver in the world, who just happened to be rather hypocritical for the second time this season.

The posts from fanboys, for who the driver can never do anything wrong, cause more conflict here than the genuine trolls.

Football fans are able to discuss their teams and hero players with criticism. It's always amazing to see an F1 driver defended with such vigour. Especially when they are not only some of the highest paid sportsman, but one of the few sportsman who rely so much on having better equipment than their competitors.
No wonder that fans of Michael Jordan, Carl Lewis, Michael Johnson, Pete Sampras, Roger Federer, Diego Mardonna, Lionel Messi, Lance Armstrong bulk at MSC being described here as the greatest sportsman ever.


#19777 Muz Bee

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 22:34

A bit clumsy by Bruno, very clumsy by Michael who seemed to panicfreeze in one movement. Pointless but predictable by the stewards, they seem to be fixated on blame even if the proportions may be 60/40 or 70/30 which is how I saw it. I would make one caveat on that last comment though - they have access to far more information than we have, like telemetry. It is quite possible that MS outbrake himself, which would show up, certainly the closing speed was huge.

It's a sad way for a former great to go even if he has dragged himself close at times to Nico's speed. He doesn't have an answer consistently and is vulnerable in qualifying. Still pretty respectable in terms of his age, more than respectable. But why would you? And don't give me the bit about it being fun.

#19778 Megacale

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 22:40

Schumacher isn't a force anymore and IMO is trying to assert some sort of dominance over other drivers and it isn't working out.


I don't actually agree with this, in fact it seems to be the other way around. Ever since MS came back into the sport I got the distinct feeling that the other drivers felt it necessary to assert their "dominance" over him by any means possible. I think this has a lot to do with why MS is getting into a lot of accidents as the other drivers see "michael red" whenever he is close at hand.

Look at close contacts, crashes, rear ends, being shoved off the road etc etc. Hell, even in karting that MS is doing these days the attitude is prevalent among the other drivers.

#19779 Mr2s

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 22:47

Absolutely. Trying to bring down Schu´s career on one mistake is ridiculous, and it happens every time he does something wrong.

That´s the prize of success: haters.


Another fanboy? Why can't you accept that some people just lose respect for other people in privileged postions? A super rich sportsman in one of the few sports that needs superior equipment to be successful.
Michael schumacher is highly respected and thought of in the Karting world, but at the same time, for a long time, his unsavoury incidents that marred his successful period in F1 between 1994 and 2004, lost him respect among the same people.
To label these people 'haters' is childish.
Schumacher fans need to remove their own egos from their driver before calling his critics (and he has also had many within the sport over the years) 'haters' or 'jealous'.


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#19780 Skinnyguy

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 22:51

Another fanboy?


No, a former hater during the dominance. :wave:

No matter how bad he does now, his enormous achievements and skill on his peak will be there forever, no matter if he crashes every race from now on.



#19781 Mr2s

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 22:54

I don't actually agree with this, in fact it seems to be the other way around. Ever since MS came back into the sport I got the distinct feeling that the other drivers felt it necessary to assert their "dominance" over him by any means possible. I think this has a lot to do with why MS is getting into a lot of accidents as the other drivers see "michael red" whenever he is close at hand.

Look at close contacts, crashes, rear ends, being shoved off the road etc etc. Hell, even in karting that MS is doing these days the attitude is prevalent among the other drivers.


Which is ironic, because I witnessed Karting standards drop in the late 1990s.
Also, we don't have Jean Todt patrolling the pitlane asking other teams to get out of his way anymore. Ross Brawn also doesn't seem to wield the same power he had at Ferrari. Power to the point of delusion at the Nurburgring 2003 race.
We all know Formula one is about money and the sport is vastly richer and more popular today than it was when schumacher was considered by the powers as "good for the sport".

#19782 Birelman

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 23:13

Odd that Schumacher would be so irate about the incident since he did the excact, EXCACT same thing to Massa in Canada, 2010.

Lol so true! I had forgot about that!!!

#19783 Birelman

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 23:18

I don't actually agree with this, in fact it seems to be the other way around. Ever since MS came back into the sport I got the distinct feeling that the other drivers felt it necessary to assert their "dominance" over him by any means possible. I think this has a lot to do with why MS is getting into a lot of accidents as the other drivers see "michael red" whenever he is close at hand.

Look at close contacts, crashes, rear ends, being shoved off the road etc etc. Hell, even in karting that MS is doing these days the attitude is prevalent among the other drivers.

You cant be serious dude! Really? You're blaming everyone else? Forgetting about the common factor?

This is like taking a beating and showing up for work the next morning and when people ask what happened, u tell them they should check how much you hurt the other guy's fist! Lol



#19784 Mr2s

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 23:20

It's a sad way for a former great to go even if he has dragged himself close at times to Nico's speed. He doesn't have an answer consistently and is vulnerable in qualifying. Still pretty respectable in terms of his age, more than respectable. But why would you? And don't give me the bit about it being fun.


He is only here because he got a sniff of another vastly superior car when Button won the WDC and WCC for Brawn.
Brawn and schumacher have that closeness thats almost like a pact, closeness that saw Brawn take a sabbatical to remove himself from the future success of drivers at Ferrari. With Ferrari eventually going down hill.
I think it irked him to see Button end up with such a dominant car.

Remember Jean Todt told us, Michael is actually an insecure personality. Which is no bad thing to lead a sportsman to success, but obviously responsable for those unsavoury incidents and poor decisions.
Michael is a flawed genius. I can see why it's painful for many posters here (some of those actually being attacked by their fellow fans).
A less insecure driver would have given F1 fans a showdown with Kimi in the same team, then bowed out of the sport. Instead we have him almost lost as to why the tyres are no longer made for him and why drivers lower down on the grid just don't peel out of his way.

#19785 Mr2s

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 23:26

No matter how bad he does now, his enormous achievements and skill on his peak will be there forever, no matter if he crashes every race from now on.


I'm not saying he wasn't enormously skilful. But now that he is competing in a non top 2 car for probably the first time in his career, his percentage stats, that have so often been held up as proof to his greatness, are taking a rightful hammering. I say rightful, as the legends he has been compared to over the years didn't enjoy such vastly dominant cars to achieve those stats.


#19786 eff1fan

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 23:59

I don't know why you keep attacking my racing knowledge, I never claimed to know more than you, Believe what you want, it makes no difference to me, I find it pretty funny that you base your racing knowledge based on reading books, and have the cojones to say it in public! :rotfl:

I won't argue the point with you much further. yes, Senna had superior position, he was ahead, and further to the inside than Schumacher, there was nowhere for Schumacher to pass him, Senna had positioned himself well to defend where Schumacher was at the time. Senna did Flinch left, as is normal when you defend to the inside and the guy trying to overtake you hasn't pulled alongside yet, so, in that situation it is normal to reach further to the proper racing line.

I'd say you should give those stewards some racing books to read, cus it seems you think you know more than them, as Schumacher is the one with the penalty for the next race, but don't let facts get in the way of your vast book reading racing knowledge. :rolleyes:


You have made some very valid points - unfortunately arguing a point with some people in this room (and others like it) is akin to pi$$ing in a volcano.
I have enjoyed your posts.



#19787 Henrik B

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 06:05

Odd that Schumacher would be so irate about the incident since he did the excact, EXCACT same thing to Massa in Canada, 2010.


And the video: http://www.twitvid.com/C55KY

Quite similar to what happened yesterday, and I don't recall Schumacher calling himself an "idiot". Schumacher would incidentally, by todays rules, be punished for those moves both in Canada 2010 and Monza last year. Senna however left a car width (according to 2012 rules) so he's completely fine.

And please stop writing Senna moved "hard left" and other such nonsense. He went slightly left. By exaggerating you run out of words to describe movements like Rosberg in Bahrain.

#19788 jbarokF1

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 06:55

And the video: http://www.twitvid.com/C55KY

Quite similar to what happened yesterday, and I don't recall Schumacher calling himself an "idiot". Schumacher would incidentally, by todays rules, be punished for those moves both in Canada 2010 and Monza last year. Senna however left a car width (according to 2012 rules) so he's completely fine.

And please stop writing Senna moved "hard left" and other such nonsense. He went slightly left. By exaggerating you run out of words to describe movements like Rosberg in Bahrain.


And also don't forget about the way he defended against Hamilton last year...Schumi did the same lap after lap, making more than 2 moves..

#19789 ivand911

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 07:28

While I think Michael went in far too hot on Senna, it's also quite clear Senna shifts about a bit in the breaking zone, this definitely contributed to what happened, but I'd still lay most of the blame at Schumachers door.

Good post. He was too hot there. He should be more careful, it is Bruno??
About Monaco, what win, what podium? With W03? I don't think it will mater if he start 8th or 13th? That car have one lucky win. Maldonado win was much more than Nico's win, more fight , more everything. Koba pass Nico as he was not moving. This days our cars go only backwards, not like last year. Even if they were on pole yesterday they didn't have chance. I think even Lewis didn't have such pace(I could be wrong). When you hit tyre window you are 1 sec faster(see Lotus last stint).

I just wonder why nobody see banana peel that Bruno throw behind his back. :rotfl: It was so clear to me.

Edited by ivand911, 14 May 2012 - 07:33.


#19790 PoliFanAthic

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 07:35

I wouldn't hold it against MSC for calling Bruno an idiot, one has said and done worse things in anger. I am more interested to see what he will say in his next statement regarding to this matter.

#19791 glorius&victorius

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 07:48

And the video: http://www.twitvid.com/C55KY


I think Schumacher said "(karma is an) idiot"

#19792 spacekid

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 07:49

And also don't forget about the way he defended against Hamilton last year...Schumi did the same lap after lap, making more than 2 moves..


That simply isn't comparable and you know it. There's a huge difference between the defending Schumi was doing and moving around in the braking zone like that.

#19793 Atonal

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 08:01

I haven't invested my ego in any driver. I hope that helps.

The '2s' refers to 2 stroke karting FYI.

Perhaps you can enlighten me as to why I must automatically be a fan of another driver to state the facts about a driver trying to blame another today? This seems to be the mentality of most MSC fans.


Fair enough. My faith in humanity is restored, there are still free spirits with absoultely no personal interests or egos involved while evaluating performances. I try to do that myself most of the time, but alas I am a mere mortal and have succumbed to some highly unreasonable turns of phrase while trying to defend Michael over the years. I have mellowed down over the years though :)

I do agree with the basic thrust of your arguments especially about Schumacher version 2. I don't however agree with your comments about his first career. We will agree to disagree :)

#19794 Hacklerf

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 08:40

5 place penalty? this is stupid penalty, racing incident, no more no less

#19795 puxanando

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 09:15

Darren Heath ‏ @F1Photographer
Just how much longer will #f1 #mercedes put up with #schumacher ? Rumours of a big name replacement are gathering a pace.

:eek:

#19796 Jovanotti

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 09:16

I think Schumacher said "(karma is an) idiot"

:lol: :up:

#19797 Sakae

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 09:22

I wouldn't hold it against MSC for calling Bruno an idiot, one has said and done worse things in anger. I am more interested to see what he will say in his next statement regarding to this matter.


In post-race interview he speaks about it. (I am not sure if you have seen this).

http://www.formula1....12/5/13346.html

#19798 Ferrari_F1_fan_2001

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 09:25

:eek:


Well, I think Schumacher will quit rather than be sacked. They let him down 3 times this year (Aus, China and Bahrain with DRS) and countless other times with DRS problems in 2011 as well. That is awful and very poor.

As Sean said, Schumacher has been very quiet so far in criticism of the team. Let's hope for a clean weekend but I fear the writing is on the wall, Schumacher will not renew with Mercedes for 2013.

#19799 Wade

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 09:29

Yeah no way, unless he wins a race or two and racks in some podiums, I'm afriad he's not gonna come back.

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#19800 ali_M

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 09:30

As Sean said, Schumacher has been very quiet so far in criticism of the team. Let's hope for a clean weekend but I fear the writing is on the wall, Schumacher will not renew with Mercedes for 2013.


If his luck settles down, then he'll likely stay out the season. Let's see what happens. However, even if he doesn't collide with anyone and has no mechanical failures, I doubt that he'd renew if they fail to get another win or podium finish.

OTOH, Michael has a way of never giving up. He could surprise us as well (he stays for another year), so long as the team is willing to have him driving.

Edited by ali_M, 14 May 2012 - 09:32.