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#20051 jj2728

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Posted 21 May 2012 - 18:16

That comparison you still insist on pushing as valid is so way off the mark that it really damages your already damaged credibility on your analysis of Spain and Schumi, in general.


Only amongst the Schumacher fan club is my point off mark. The impetuous Schumacher of present day is no different than the impetuous Schumacher of old. Leopards do NOT change their spots. And to be quite frank, amongst this crowd I couldn't care less what people such as yourself think of my credibility. But if it floats your boat then well.....

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#20052 1Devil1

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Posted 21 May 2012 - 18:22

While some people go over the top saying Schumacher is under performing these past 2 seasons clearly some people go the other way as well, dimissing Schumacher losing out to Rosberg last season because of technical errors seems to gloss over many self inflicted accidents caused by Schumacher himself. Also i dont see how Schumacher has been quicker than Rosberg this season for the most part its been close but when it mattered the most Rosberg made it count.


Yeah the countless chances Michael had to "made it count" this year. Michael had a technical retirement in this race - do you remember?
It's really hard to compare the performance of the two drivers because Schumacher hadn't an incident free weekend so far. But until now there is no evidence that Rosberg is the better man. He had one! really good weekend, was clearly faster than Michael on this favored track, who was in the position to score a second place. But Michael showed good pace at all others races and probably would have the same points as Nico if not even more.

Edited by 1Devil1, 21 May 2012 - 18:25.


#20053 glorius&victorius

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Posted 21 May 2012 - 18:25

can anyone tell me why Mercedes has done nothing to give Michael a better engineer?? Jock Clear former soul mates with JV and Rubens. No way he will loose sleep over MS set up problems.

Look at Kimi, he has his old engineer back, and the results are good.

Why cant Michael not get ... what's his name... the nerdy australian guy.. but oh so humble and good!

I dont get it!

I say: come back but do it proper... or otherwise.. hang up the helmet and retire in grace.

Edited by glorius&victorius, 21 May 2012 - 18:26.


#20054 jj2728

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Posted 21 May 2012 - 18:27

Sorry jj2728, sometimes you get a rough deal in this thread, but not this time.

Spa 1998 has been done to death, DC himself has admitted he made a decision that he now regrets, it was his responsibility. It wasn't deliberately aimed at taking MS out, but he did ease off in the wet, barely off the racing line which is what caused the accident. Additionally, he was a lap behind. There is NO similarity between that & Spain 2012 other than MS was involved.


I was making the point that Michael Schumacher's impetuousness has not changed over the years. His stats will be forever tainted and debated because of that and the bullyboy tactics he has employed. He is no different today than he was back in 1998. He is still a phenmonenal talent, but it is a talent shadowed by that impetuousness. That I dare disagree with the Schumacher fanbase on this subject has led to insults and what some would say little or no credibility. No big deal really, because unlike many here, the sun does not rise and set in my life around Michael Schumacher.

#20055 ivand911

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Posted 21 May 2012 - 18:33

can anyone tell me why Mercedes has done nothing to give Michael a better engineer?? Jock Clear former soul mates with JV and Rubens. No way he will loose sleep over MS set up problems.

Look at Kimi, he has his old engineer back, and the results are good.

Why cant Michael not get ... what's his name... the nerdy australian guy.. but oh so humble and good!

I dont get it!

I say: come back but do it proper... or otherwise.. hang up the helmet and retire in grace.

Chris Dyer. I don't know why. His race engineer is Peter Bonnington. Jock is his performance engineer.
Race engineer (Michael Schumacher): Peter Bonnington
Race engineer (Nico Rosberg): Tony Ross
Performance engineer (Michael Schumacher): Jock Clear
Performance engineer (Nico Rosberg): Riccardo Musconi


#20056 spacekid

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Posted 21 May 2012 - 19:32

I was making the point that Michael Schumacher's impetuousness has not changed over the years. His stats will be forever tainted and debated because of that and the bullyboy tactics he has employed. He is no different today than he was back in 1998. He is still a phenmonenal talent, but it is a talent shadowed by that impetuousness. That I dare disagree with the Schumacher fanbase on this subject has led to insults and what some would say little or no credibility. No big deal really, because unlike many here, the sun does not rise and set in my life around Michael Schumacher.


Anyone with half a brain knows he has pulled a couple of incredibly ill judged manoveours over the years. He's an aggresive motor racer. And yes he can appear arrogant about it to. He's a competitive sports person. He's hardly the first person in F1 to fit into both these categories, though arguably the most scrutinized. I believe its his way of keeping mentally strong, you'll never see a Rubens-esque chin drop after a difficult period from Michael though you might glimpse a git, but whatever. We get it.

If you want to let that overshadow your opinion of him as a person thats your choice and I can see both sides of the argument. What I don't understand is why the need to keep reminding us that his stats are tainted because of it. There's a lot more to it than stats, just as there is a lot more to his racing career and overall qualities as an F1 driver than a few select moments.

#20057 MightyMoose

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Posted 21 May 2012 - 19:41

I was making the point that Michael Schumacher's impetuousness has not changed over the years. His stats will be forever tainted and debated because of that and the bullyboy tactics he has employed. He is no different today than he was back in 1998. He is still a phenmonenal talent, but it is a talent shadowed by that impetuousness. That I dare disagree with the Schumacher fanbase on this subject has led to insults and what some would say little or no credibility. No big deal really, because unlike many here, the sun does not rise and set in my life around Michael Schumacher.

jj2728, all well and good and I'm not necessarily disagreeing with your assessment of MS' flaws but......

Your point that what happened in Spa 1998 is the same as Spain 2012 is misplaced, there is a world of difference between hitting a guy up the backside as you misjudge a passing move and hitting a guy that you're trying to lap when he eases off on the racing line in the wet. Surely you can see that?

IF MS is as impetuous as you claim him to be, there's far better evidence to put forward to make your case than an incident where he wasn't even at fault. I could suggest France 1992, maybe at a push suggest Silverstone 94. At least he bears responsibility for those.


#20058 spinster

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Posted 21 May 2012 - 19:46

jj2728, all well and good and I'm not necessarily disagreeing with your assessment of MS' flaws but......

Your point that what happened in Spa 1998 is the same as Spain 2012 is misplaced, there is a world of difference between hitting a guy up the backside as you misjudge a passing move and hitting a guy that you're trying to lap when he eases off on the racing line in the wet. Surely you can see that?

IF MS is as impetuous as you claim him to be, there's far better evidence to put forward to make your case than an incident where he wasn't even at fault. I could suggest France 1992, maybe at a push suggest Silverstone 94. At least he bears responsibility for those.


maybe we can wait after a wet monaco to judge MS... Monaco (one of his favourites) and wet (the rain master as told me)...

I'm really want to see what he can do... if he make a mistake ones more than it's very clear...STOP!

#20059 spacekid

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Posted 21 May 2012 - 19:47

Ivan please, we´re talking about FP3. If Michael was impeded it really was just a lap in practise - the way he throw his toys out of the pram was just about the most childish thing I´ve see for ages. It was not really dangerous as some claim but idiotic and totally unnecessary. If he was a man, he had confronted Lewis after the session and told what he felt but to do that on track... :confused:


It happens. Its a big boys sport. Lewis isn't impervious to these things, nor other drivers. Yes Schumi could have handled that much better, but its been blown out of proportion now.

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#20060 spacekid

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Posted 21 May 2012 - 19:50

maybe we can wait after a wet monaco to judge MS... Monaco (one of his favourites) and wet (the rain master as told me)...

I'm really want to see what he can do... if he make a mistake ones more than it's very clear...STOP!


Thats a bit harsh. He's only made 1 mistake all year. Apart from that he's looked pretty decent.

Making a mistake in the wet at Monaco is hardly grounds for retirement.

Anyway it will be interesting. I think Nico will also be good at Monaco, but will the Mercedes? Have they learnt how to make the tyre work in the wet? Will they slip further down the grid without their trick DRS being used like in Malaysia and China? I think Michael will be in traffic, probably about 7-8th will be a fair result.

#20061 spinster

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Posted 21 May 2012 - 20:02

Thats a bit harsh. He's only made 1 mistake all year. Apart from that he's looked pretty decent.

Making a mistake in the wet at Monaco is hardly grounds for retirement.

Anyway it will be interesting. I think Nico will also be good at Monaco, but will the Mercedes? Have they learnt how to make the tyre work in the wet? Will they slip further down the grid without their trick DRS being used like in Malaysia and China? I think Michael will be in traffic, probably about 7-8th will be a fair result.


1 mistake a year?

#20062 jbarokF1

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Posted 21 May 2012 - 20:53

maybe we can wait after a wet monaco to judge MS... Monaco (one of his favourites) and wet (the rain master as told me)...

I'm really want to see what he can do... if he make a mistake ones more than it's very clear...STOP!


Better to wait til the end of the season...there is always a reason (or excuse) whenever MS does not get any good results..

#20063 spacekid

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Posted 21 May 2012 - 21:04

Better to wait til the end of the season...there is always a reason (or excuse) whenever MS does not get any good results..


Yeah, but thats true of anyone isn't it? Of course there's always either a reason or an excuse.

#20064 baddog

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Posted 21 May 2012 - 21:09

A race ban would not have been out of order.

Yes but you have believed for many years that Michael should get a race ban for variously being Michael, his chin, looking at you funny, beating xyz driver, existing etc etc.

A race ban for that would have been not only excessive but completely outrageous. You don't even have to look back a year to see much much worse moves from annoyed drivers, including the supposed victim in this case.

Edited by baddog, 21 May 2012 - 21:09.


#20065 Longtimefan

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Posted 21 May 2012 - 21:10

The day Merc hire Chris Dyer is the day Schumi can start putting in amazing performances again.

I have ZERO faith in any of Schumi's current team, especially Jock Clear whom I do not trust in the slightest, regarding working on Schumi's car/settings.




#20066 spacekid

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Posted 21 May 2012 - 21:19

I have ZERO faith in any of Schumi's current team, especially Jock Clear whom I do not trust in the slightest, regarding working on Schumi's car/settings.


I do. They are all professionals. The idea someone like Clear would harbour a grudge against Schumi and not work his absolute best for the team is pretty crazy imo.

I also think that if the team were pulling that kinda shit, Michael is smart enough to notice, and powerful enough not to stand for it.

#20067 baddog

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Posted 21 May 2012 - 21:21

Since Clear took over, Michael has been the better Merc driver overall, has had mostly good setups etc. He has been a damned good engineer. There have been far too many silly errors by mechanics though but presumably that would be more the other fellow's area.

#20068 TheBunk

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Posted 21 May 2012 - 21:29

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Thanks! :up:

#20069 george1981

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Posted 21 May 2012 - 21:38

With regards to engineers, I think most F1 engineers know that they can replaced relatively easily and have to work hard to stay in F1. I can't see any engineer deliberately impeding their driver because of a 15 year old grudge, when they know that their driver's performance will reflect upon them. MS could retire again at the end of this season, Jock Clear has probably got at least another 10 years in him and can't afford to have a reputation of sabotaging his driver.

#20070 654321

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Posted 21 May 2012 - 22:04

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thanks for the always cool pics Ivan


I expect MS to be seeing red this weekend...



#20071 SeanValen

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Posted 21 May 2012 - 22:15

So you are looking forward to see MS win a lottery race???
I thought you guys want to see drivers win by being able to push to the limit and not by a lottery?



You imisunderstood my post.
I don't want to see a lottery race, I don't like how Pirelli have changed and how a lack of testing means races suffer because of lack of tyre experence. And temperature related tyres are the worsed. I was just saying we've had a few of those already this season, and it creates a mess where alot of good drivers might not get he results due to them.

Hopefully it won't be too much of a issue as the season goes along.

Edited by SeanValen, 21 May 2012 - 22:17.


#20072 Muz Bee

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Posted 21 May 2012 - 23:15

I think that remark is lost on people who consider Schumacher unbeaten record as a thorn in their side. They prefer to read this as it suits them. You can't beat him in records, thus you smuge his reputation. It's a shame.

The great record of Michael Schumacher up to his retirement in 2006 is somehow read into his CAREER MkII to give him some kind of rites of passage. Michael who can do know wrong for some people who fail to believe in the old adage "you're only as good as your last race" - this term should be used with some license - and keep harking back to a Michael Schumacher very different to this one in the 2010s. Massa is an example of a driver who is not a shadow of his earlier self and should be replaced some time soon. Schumacher has been cast as much slack as anyone and for two seasons he was trounced nearly every weekend by his teammate. Fortunately for him in 2012 he has continued the upswing in performance that became evident late in 2011 and he is now producing a level which has in recent weeks been on par with Rosberg if we take the China win out of the equation as "extraordinary".

I spent some effort over the last two years watching someone who made a mockery of his great record in the sport and hearing "fans" saying they would be happy to see him even if he wasn't performing well. This I find as illogical as Rossi fans celebrating Stoner's retirement from MotoGP. Racing is racing, hero worship is something different. Hero worship knows little of rationality; I have for a long time had a belief that Nico Rosberg would one day prove the faith that many had in his talent and become a race winner and champion. I must confess that despite the China win I am now struggling to believe he is truly top shelf.

Talk of a 44 year old Schumacher joining Vettel in 2013 made me chuckle, Michael makes too many errors and lacks raw pace to be put in the top league with all the great drivers in F1 today. You can tidy up a fast, young, ragged driver, but you can't put more speed into an old, slow driver. Paul diResta would be a good replacement for Mercedes.

Regards, "smudging (sic) his reputation" Michael has done that on his own. Senna did it to himself. We don't see such rubbish from many drivers pre 1990s and thankfully it hasn't grown in frequency too much.

Edited by Muz Bee, 21 May 2012 - 23:35.


#20073 TheBunk

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Posted 22 May 2012 - 00:06

and for two seasons he was trounced nearly every weekend by his teammate. Fortunately for him in 2012 he has continued the upswing in performance that became evident late in 2011 and he is now producing a level which has in recent weeks been on par with Rosberg if we take the China win out of the equation as "extraordinary".

I spent some effort over the last two years watching someone who made a mockery of his great record in the sport and hearing "fans" saying they would be happy to see him even if he wasn't performing well. This I find as illogical as Rossi fans celebrating Stoner's retirement from MotoGP. Racing is racing, hero worship is something different. Hero worship knows little of rationality; I have for a long time had a belief that Nico Rosberg would one day prove the faith that many had in his talent and become a race winner and champion. I must confess that despite the China win I am now struggling to believe he is truly top shelf.

Talk of a 44 year old Schumacher joining Vettel in 2013 made me chuckle, Michael makes too many errors and lacks raw pace to be put in the top league with all the great drivers in F1 today. You can tidy up a fast, young, ragged driver, but you can't put more speed into an old, slow driver. Paul diResta would be a good replacement for Mercedes.

Regards, "smudging (sic) his reputation" Michael has done that on his own. Senna did it to himself. We don't see such rubbish from many drivers pre 1990s and thankfully it hasn't grown in frequency too much.


Actually, Schumacher hasnt been error free in his entire career. Roebuck and Stewart often said Schumacher makes too many mistakes to be considered top driver. Then he started winning 7 championships and they shut up.

It just goes up and down. This years hes doing fine against rosberg, despite schumacher driving at 80% according to mark hughes. Its not a difference of night and day like massa and alonso. And Merc apparently lets him decide what he wants to do. Rightfully so imo. Roll on Monaco.


#20074 SeanValen

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Posted 22 May 2012 - 00:33

Actually, Schumacher hasnt been error free in his entire career. Roebuck and Stewart often said Schumacher makes too many mistakes to be considered top driver. Then he started winning 7 championships and they shut up.

It just goes up and down. This years hes doing fine against rosberg, despite schumacher driving at 80% according to mark hughes. Its not a difference of night and day like massa and alonso. And Merc apparently lets him decide what he wants to do. Rightfully so imo. Roll on Monaco.



:up:
Schumacher riskes alot in his driving, if you saw Spa 1998 and compare to Canada 2011, both wet effected GPS, Martin Brundle commenting "Schumacher getting right up on the kerbs", Brundle said the same of Schumi at Canada 2011, I think that's when Schumacher is really interesting to watch, because his will and determination of a result is injected into the laptimes and driving, searching for those extra centermetres of the racing line/grip. Sometimes when Schumacher is sensing a result/or inspired to make certain time up-Huingary 98 laptimes, he's provided something to races we don't quite get the same from others, true hard edge grit.

When he pulls it off, you can see why he's won so muich, and when he doesnt, you know he still risking and putting it out there. Schumacher did get the highest placed finishes in 2011 for mercedes because of these risks. These rules are not probabley the best for him in my view, because were not seeing the true Schumacher who wants to push, the tyre characteistics might not always help out. If the 2011 Mercedes was a faster car, I would of prefered it if pirelli kept the compounds of last year, so we can see Schumacher attack more, his race from the back at bahrain was very good, but I think we were robbed of a bit more aggression due to tyre worries, yence the reason he came out dissing the tyres, something he feels strongly about and heavily discussed in forums already.

Edited by SeanValen, 22 May 2012 - 00:35.


#20075 Sakae

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Posted 22 May 2012 - 01:54

The great record of Michael Schumacher up to his retirement in 2006 is somehow read into his CAREER MkII to give him some kind of rites of passage. Michael who can do know wrong for some people who fail to believe in the old adage "you're only as good as your last race" - this term should be used with some license - and keep harking back to a Michael Schumacher very different to this one in the 2010s. Massa is an example of a driver who is not a shadow of his earlier self and should be replaced some time soon. Schumacher has been cast as much slack as anyone and for two seasons he was trounced nearly every weekend by his teammate. Fortunately for him in 2012 he has continued the upswing in performance that became evident late in 2011 and he is now producing a level which has in recent weeks been on par with Rosberg if we take the China win out of the equation as "extraordinary".

I spent some effort over the last two years watching someone who made a mockery of his great record in the sport and hearing "fans" saying they would be happy to see him even if he wasn't performing well. This I find as illogical as Rossi fans celebrating Stoner's retirement from MotoGP. Racing is racing, hero worship is something different. Hero worship knows little of rationality; I have for a long time had a belief that Nico Rosberg would one day prove the faith that many had in his talent and become a race winner and champion. I must confess that despite the China win I am now struggling to believe he is truly top shelf.

Talk of a 44 year old Schumacher joining Vettel in 2013 made me chuckle, Michael makes too many errors and lacks raw pace to be put in the top league with all the great drivers in F1 today. You can tidy up a fast, young, ragged driver, but you can't put more speed into an old, slow driver. Paul diResta would be a good replacement for Mercedes.

Regards, "smudging (sic) his reputation" Michael has done that on his own. Senna did it to himself. We don't see such rubbish from many drivers pre 1990s and thankfully it hasn't grown in frequency too much.

Michael is a man who lives at the edge who never stopped pushing boundaries where others back off. He goes out while exploring new possibilities, paving the way, and surprisingly not everything works well all the time. It is his signature, and that’s where men and boys are separated. One could learn, as I did, to appreciate that, instead bark on it.
Reality settles in, that not everyone in the current flock of drivers carries burden of being a multiple champion who works with a crew in development, facing new rules, new equipment, and also new techniques. I do not expect that all people will understand complexity of it, but I am trying to. For me he is unique in history of F1 racing, standing alone, unequaled and unchallenged. I enjoy his time with us, and I am grateful for it.


#20076 ali_M

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Posted 22 May 2012 - 10:18

:up:
Schumacher riskes alot in his driving, if you saw Spa 1998 and compare to Canada 2011, both wet effected GPS, Martin Brundle commenting "Schumacher getting right up on the kerbs", Brundle said the same of Schumi at Canada 2011, I think that's when Schumacher is really interesting to watch, because his will and determination of a result is injected into the laptimes and driving, searching for those extra centermetres of the racing line/grip. Sometimes when Schumacher is sensing a result/or inspired to make certain time up-Huingary 98 laptimes, he's provided something to races we don't quite get the same from others, true hard edge grit.

When he pulls it off, you can see why he's won so muich, and when he doesnt, you know he still risking and putting it out there. Schumacher did get the highest placed finishes in 2011 for mercedes because of these risks. These rules are not probabley the best for him in my view, because were not seeing the true Schumacher who wants to push, the tyre characteistics might not always help out. If the 2011 Mercedes was a faster car, I would of prefered it if pirelli kept the compounds of last year, so we can see Schumacher attack more, his race from the back at bahrain was very good, but I think we were robbed of a bit more aggression due to tyre worries, yence the reason he came out dissing the tyres, something he feels strongly about and heavily discussed in forums already.


:up:

#20077 Clatter

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Posted 22 May 2012 - 10:41

Yes but you have believed for many years that Michael should get a race ban for variously being Michael, his chin, looking at you funny, beating xyz driver, existing etc etc.

A race ban for that would have been not only excessive but completely outrageous. You don't even have to look back a year to see much much worse moves from annoyed drivers, including the supposed victim in this case.


I agree I have certainly believed he should have been banned in the past. Anyone who deliberately drives into another doesn't deserve to be on the race track. The rest of your sentence is just the usual childish nonsense.

If there have been worse moves in the past then it just shows the authorities are not doing a good enough job in clamping down on it. Harsh punishment would soon put an end to it, and in this case I personally think it would be deserved.

#20078 baddog

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Posted 22 May 2012 - 11:02

I agree I have certainly believed he should have been banned in the past. Anyone who deliberately drives into another doesn't deserve to be on the race track. The rest of your sentence is just the usual childish nonsense.

If there have been worse moves in the past then it just shows the authorities are not doing a good enough job in clamping down on it. Harsh punishment would soon put an end to it, and in this case I personally think it would be deserved.

Sure, but I doubt any of us would enjoy your sugar-coated F1 of people pretending to have no emotions. ALL drivers worth a damn have expressed these things in similiar, harmless, ways.

#20079 ali_M

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Posted 22 May 2012 - 11:06

Sure, but I doubt any of us would enjoy your sugar-coated F1 of people pretending to have no emotions. ALL drivers worth a damn have expressed these things in similiar, harmless, ways.


:up: :up: :up: :up:

They'd not only be people pretending to have emotions, but they'd be distracted by the huge haemorrhoids and ulcers that they'd develop in the process. :D

Edited by ali_M, 22 May 2012 - 11:08.


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#20080 Hacklerf

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Posted 22 May 2012 - 11:08

Tell you what pisses me off, i know this guy who every time i see him he goes on about Schumacher wasting a F1 seat, stopping some young drivers coming through etc. This really annoys me because he then says how Schumacher has been terrible this year and said that if Massa has the knives out for him for only getting 2 points, so should Schumi after being embarrassed by Rosberg. This guys been watching F1 for over 30 years, and i sometimes wonder to myself, what races are these people watching? I mean, Schuamcher this year has has such bad luck that its unreal, i mean the DNF that come from the car not him, ok he makes 1 mistake for hitting Senna, that was silly, but he was pushing, maximum attack as he knew his rubber was not to be wasted.

How many other athletes could operate at his level, at his age? not many i would say! i dont know why people cant just appreciate that a legend is still competitive and actually a honor to still be able to watch. He wont be around on track forever, and im just glad we still get to watch him. Not many drivers could cause such discussions, so i guess its true about the tallest tree.

#20081 ali_M

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Posted 22 May 2012 - 11:12

Tell you what pisses me off, i know this guy who every time i see him he goes on about Schumacher wasting a F1 seat, stopping some young drivers coming through etc. This really annoys me because he then says how Schumacher has been terrible this year and said that if Massa has the knives out for him for only getting 2 points, so should Schumi after being embarrassed by Rosberg. This guys been watching F1 for over 30 years, and i sometimes wonder to myself, what races are these people watching? I mean, Schuamcher this year has has such bad luck that its unreal, i mean the DNF that come from the car not him, ok he makes 1 mistake for hitting Senna, that was silly, but he was pushing, maximum attack as he knew his rubber was not to be wasted.

How many other athletes could operate at his level, at his age? not many i would say! i dont know why people cant just appreciate that a legend is still competitive and actually a honor to still be able to watch. He wont be around on track forever, and im just glad we still get to watch him. Not many drivers could cause such discussions, so i guess its true about the tallest tree.


It's all about the different perspectives that we see the world and Schumi through. It's food for thought that they may well look at your own perspective with similar frustration. There's room for the differences in so long as we don't fight too much over it. :p

Edited by ali_M, 22 May 2012 - 11:13.


#20082 Hacklerf

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Posted 22 May 2012 - 11:17

I know what you mean, he gets aggressive over it, and i think because i dont, it gets him more mad hah

#20083 Clatter

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Posted 22 May 2012 - 11:31

Sure, but I doubt any of us would enjoy your sugar-coated F1 of people pretending to have no emotions. ALL drivers worth a damn have expressed these things in similiar, harmless, ways.


Thats fine, but I personally believe there was a clear and obvious danger in his actions. The stewards decided that a reprimand was enough, personally I think a sterner punishment would not have been out of order.

#20084 Pits

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Posted 22 May 2012 - 11:54

Great onboard of Schumacher quali Monaco 2011!
http://www.youtube.c...feature=related
:smoking:

#20085 Gareth

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Posted 22 May 2012 - 12:08

A race ban for that would have been not only excessive but completely outrageous. You don't even have to look back a year to see much much worse moves from annoyed drivers, including the supposed victim in this case.

The only other time I have seen someone cut a circuit to "get their own back" on another driver for a perceived wrong was discussed in this thread: http://forums.autosp...w...&hl=revenge

#20086 TheBunk

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Posted 22 May 2012 - 12:30

The only other time I have seen someone cut a circuit to "get their own back" on another driver for a perceived wrong was discussed in this thread: http://forums.autosp...w...&hl=revenge


Probably not the first time one driver tries to get back at another though.

#20087 ali_M

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Posted 22 May 2012 - 12:44

Probably not the first time one driver tries to get back at another though.


Additionally, we assume that we hear or are made aware of all of them. Schumi is more under the microscope than the majority of the grid. There are so many who love 'taking a piece' out of him in order to diminish him because they resent his presence in F1 now. Once he does something wrong, it's way overblown. Once he does something positive, efforts are made to diminish the value of it. On the one hand you're hearing that he has not earned his place in F1 today on merit, but instead, because of his record. Yet, those same voices are first to condemn him for anything he does now because he's the most experienced and most accomplished. A convenient double-standard, isn't it? :smoking:

#20088 Gareth

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Posted 22 May 2012 - 13:29

There are so many who love 'taking a piece' out of him in order to diminish him because they resent his presence in F1 now.

I was a massive Schumacher fan back during his first career (check out some of my oldest posts and you'll see me defending him hammer and tongues) and remain a fan to this day (albeit he's second in my affections now - his fault for leaving :p ). I think that whilst he is not the driver he once was, he is performing at a standard that deserves an F1 seat (ie he's at least an average F1 driver today) and that at age 43 that is an incredible achievement that, to me, only adds to his status as one of the greatest in the sport.

I think what he did in FP was a dumb move. I'm sure others have pulled a move that was motivated (at least in part) by a desire to "get revenge". Those people at least have the benefit of plausible deniability. The second you cut the circuit to pull the move you go from "benefit of the doubt" to "it is completely inarguable that I am doing anything other than retaliating". IMO he got off very light for that one.

#20089 TheBunk

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Posted 22 May 2012 - 13:48

I was a massive Schumacher fan back during his first career (check out some of my oldest posts and you'll see me defending him hammer and tongues) and remain a fan to this day (albeit he's second in my affections now - his fault for leaving :p ). I think that whilst he is not the driver he once was, he is performing at a standard that deserves an F1 seat (ie he's at least an average F1 driver today) and that at age 43 that is an incredible achievement that, to me, only adds to his status as one of the greatest in the sport.

I think what he did in FP was a dumb move. I'm sure others have pulled a move that was motivated (at least in part) by a desire to "get revenge". Those people at least have the benefit of plausible deniability. The second you cut the circuit to pull the move you go from "benefit of the doubt" to "it is completely inarguable that I am doing anything other than retaliating". IMO he got off very light for that one.


Yes but retaliating for an earlier action on him should be a mitigating factor. What exactly did Lewis do to make Schumacher so upset?

Me, i was much more angry about his customary start line chops on rivals. Shoving Alonso off track at 300kmh on hangar straight. That oughta got punished. This was not as dangerous by a long shot.

#20090 ali_M

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Posted 22 May 2012 - 13:52

I was a massive Schumacher fan back during his first career (check out some of my oldest posts and you'll see me defending him hammer and tongues) and remain a fan to this day (albeit he's second in my affections now - his fault for leaving :p ). I think that whilst he is not the driver he once was, he is performing at a standard that deserves an F1 seat (ie he's at least an average F1 driver today) and that at age 43 that is an incredible achievement that, to me, only adds to his status as one of the greatest in the sport.

I think what he did in FP was a dumb move. I'm sure others have pulled a move that was motivated (at least in part) by a desire to "get revenge". Those people at least have the benefit of plausible deniability. The second you cut the circuit to pull the move you go from "benefit of the doubt" to "it is completely inarguable that I am doing anything other than retaliating". IMO he got off very light for that one.


We all do dumb things at some point. We're lucky to not have a camera showing all of them. I doubt there's a single person here who disagrees that what he did was dumb and driven by emotion. I don't know who here hasn't found him or herself apologising after DUMB behaviour in the heat of the moment. Nothing happened as a result of what Schumi did and there wasn't a reasonable amount of risk in what he did that something could have happened. The stewards are right on with finishing it off with a reprimand. No one mature and responsible will heavily penalise Michael for what he did there. Too much judgmental slur around here. I'm 44 and can be very emotional myself, testosterone laced and all. We all know about road rage and boy, have I done some obstructing when I felt I was hard done in traffic. Some may call it childish, but boy, oh boy, did I find it satisfying at the time.

So you and others here wouldn't do a thing like that under similar circumstances. Fine... more power to you, and salutations to you all. :wave: I can only breath a sigh of relief that the judicial system doesn't find people guilty of things that never happened, of things that didn't have reasonable risk of happening and of behaving childishly in a fit of emotion.

I'd give it a rest.... really. :smoking:

Edited by ali_M, 22 May 2012 - 13:56.


#20091 ali_M

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Posted 22 May 2012 - 14:03



Rossi however says that he still believes he can challenge at the front, and was therefore pleased to seize the opportunity presented to him by a wet Le Mans circuit.

"I've heard many things about me lately, [and] honestly it pissed me off," Rossi told Gazzetta dello Sport. "It's as if I'm old at 33, but I'm not. I feel in shape and I've had the chance to demonstrate it."

The seven-time champion added that triumphing over Casey Stoner during the pair's late battle in France was almost more rewarding than securing his best ever finish for Ducati.


Schumi deserves a similar break and I hope that he gets one soon.

He got it in Canada last year, but the critics are so rabid that it will take a lot more than a one-off to get them silenced. :smoking:




#20092 Ferrari_F1_fan_2001

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Posted 22 May 2012 - 16:20

Schumi deserves a similar break and I hope that he gets one soon.

He got it in Canada last year, but the critics are so rabid that it will take a lot more than a one-off to get them silenced. :smoking:


The critics are so rabid because he kicked arse from 1991-2006 regularly, consistently and at the highest level. They've had do wait until he turned into an old man with equipement that doesn't work half the time, poor judgement and pitstop errors to turn around and say "haha, I told you that he was no good....remember 1994 and 1997???? REMEMBER!!!! REMEMBER!!!! DO YOU REMEMBER????!!!!"

This is their day in the sun, let them enjoy it.

#20093 ali_M

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Posted 22 May 2012 - 18:10

The critics are so rabid because he kicked arse from 1991-2006 regularly, consistently and at the highest level. They've had do wait until he turned into an old man with equipement that doesn't work half the time, poor judgement and pitstop errors to turn around and say "haha, I told you that he was no good....remember 1994 and 1997???? REMEMBER!!!! REMEMBER!!!! DO YOU REMEMBER????!!!!"

This is their day in the sun, let them enjoy it.


:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:
What makes it so funny, for me anyway, is that you're perfectly correct.

#20094 spacekid

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Posted 22 May 2012 - 19:57

The critics are so rabid because he kicked arse from 1991-2006 regularly, consistently and at the highest level. They've had do wait until he turned into an old man with equipement that doesn't work half the time, poor judgement and pitstop errors to turn around and say "haha, I told you that he was no good....remember 1994 and 1997???? REMEMBER!!!! REMEMBER!!!! DO YOU REMEMBER????!!!!"

This is their day in the sun, let them enjoy it.


Absolutely nail bang on the head. Its simply impossible to go a whole page of talking about MS without being reminded that he only ever competed in 4 races.

All those involved seem to have moved on, I have no clue what generates the level of bitterness we see on here.

Anyway, moving on I don't think a good result is on the cards in Monaco, but I'm really hoping a strong drive is, thats what really matters. It will be his last time round there, I really hope he can show his stuff!

#20095 jj2728

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Posted 22 May 2012 - 19:58

:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:
What makes it so funny, for me anyway, is that you're perfectly correct.


What makes it even funnier is that 9 times out of 10 it's the Schumacher fan base that openly throws down the gauntlet. And some of us talk about lost credibility here.....

#20096 spacekid

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Posted 22 May 2012 - 20:02

I think what he did in FP was a dumb move. I'm sure others have pulled a move that was motivated (at least in part) by a desire to "get revenge". Those people at least have the benefit of plausible deniability. The second you cut the circuit to pull the move you go from "benefit of the doubt" to "it is completely inarguable that I am doing anything other than retaliating". IMO he got off very light for that one.


Compleltely agree with all the above.

I would add though - this is a big boys sport, and I think a lot of this sort of thing goes on. I remember Hamilton and Maldonado last year.

Drivers get frustrated, I'm sure everyone involved was well moved on from this by Q1. Its just TV pundits (justifying being on air) and the message boards who blow these incidents out of proportion.

Edited by spacekid, 22 May 2012 - 21:13.


#20097 1Devil1

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Posted 22 May 2012 - 21:25

What are you're hopes for the race weekend? Hopefully Michael has a good qualifying and can get a position between three and five that he can in start in the top ten. Podium finish is only a dream - hard but true. When has a good start perhaps he can go for a different strategy. Maybe one stop less than the others to protect his position till the end with the knife between his teeth. I would love to see that fight. But no it's Mercedes they will screw it up again :rotfl:

#20098 ali_M

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Posted 23 May 2012 - 00:59

What makes it even funnier is that 9 times out of 10 it's the Schumacher fan base that openly throws down the gauntlet. And some of us talk about lost credibility here.....


Your persistence with this negative speak is quite something. The fans need their alter-egos though. Maintains the balance.

Your opinions are most appreciated. Credibility issues notwithstanding. :kiss:

#20099 ali_M

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Posted 23 May 2012 - 01:00

What are you're hopes for the race weekend? Hopefully Michael has a good qualifying and can get a position between three and five that he can in start in the top ten. Podium finish is only a dream - hard but true. When has a good start perhaps he can go for a different strategy. Maybe one stop less than the others to protect his position till the end with the knife between his teeth. I would love to see that fight. But no it's Mercedes they will screw it up again :rotfl:


I'm mentally numb where expectations are concerned. Let's just see what happens and be, as usual, prepared for the worst.

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#20100 Hacklerf

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Posted 23 May 2012 - 09:48

The thing about Monaco, is , it is a lottery to some extent i think this year it might be a cracker, can you imagine, the leader is out front, tyres shot to bits, the pack catches him, it will be Senna Mansel stuff!

I think Schumi will have a good race, with the 5 place penalty i would expect him to maybe 8-10 on the grid, not the best place to start, but with if the luck which has deserted him this year returns, who knows?!

Personally i think Kimi will win it.