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#20151 Longtimefan

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Posted 25 May 2012 - 21:04

What needs to improve is his luck.



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#20152 Sakae

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Posted 25 May 2012 - 21:05

It's not really a rehash, it was quite clear in the press conference live yesterday that Brawn meant team, including Schumacher that need to up their game. So the headline "Michael Schumacher must improve for Mercedes" is fine.

Okay, probably should be worded a bit differently, but it's not disgraceful. As a Schumacher fan, I'd like to see him improve as well to be honest. 2 points after 5 races was not really what I wanted to see.

Language is (considering regularity, possibly therefore deliberately) skewed, and misleading. I much very doubt it would be the same headline if this would concern Hamilton, thus I too consider it shameful and disgraceful.

#20153 puxanando

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Posted 25 May 2012 - 21:09

What needs to improve is his luck.


THIS is something which need ALL the drivers! LUCK is a word too much used in relation with the Schumi-comeback.....I think!

#20154 TheBunk

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Posted 25 May 2012 - 21:10

It's not really a rehash, it was quite clear in the press conference live yesterday that Brawn meant team, including Schumacher that need to up their game. So the headline "Michael Schumacher must improve for Mercedes" is fine.


I do not agree. Bensons line suggest that Mercedes told him to up his game, while you rightly say the overal mesaage was the team as a whole performed badly, with the slight notion that Merc has let Shumi down in 3 out of 5, and Shumi has let Merc down in 1 out of 5. If one guy oughta say someone needs to improve, its shumi telling Merc.


Okay, probably should be worded a bit differently, but it's not disgraceful. As a Schumacher fan, I'd like to see him improve as well to be honest. 2 points after 5 races was not really what I wanted to see.


I hear you, but if Merc didnt f*** up China, this would be 20 points vs 41 for Rosberg.

Anyway, I expect him to do well here, and the next race at Canada.

#20155 TheBunk

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Posted 25 May 2012 - 21:21

Language is (considering regularity, possibly therefore deliberately) skewed, and misleading. I much very doubt it would be the same headline if this would concern Hamilton, thus I too consider it shameful and disgraceful.


Touche. This Andrew Benson has double standards. It is tasteless and unfair. In the meantime if Schumacher wasnt driving in F1, he probably had nothing to write about, since his object of affection hasnt won a race in a while either.

Schumacher is a legend, with more wins than the entire grid combined, and should get some respect for that, even if it was only for giving something to write about for longer than Bensons career in F1.

Schumacher doesnt need the pussy footing hamilton got/gets after yet another howler, but twisting reality and press conferences about Schumacher on each and every moment to write tabloid headlines is disgusting journalism and BBC unworthy.

Edited by TheBunk, 25 May 2012 - 21:22.


#20156 ali_M

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Posted 25 May 2012 - 21:47

Touche. This Andrew Benson has double standards. It is tasteless and unfair. In the meantime if Schumacher wasnt driving in F1, he probably had nothing to write about, since his object of affection hasnt won a race in a while either.

Schumacher is a legend, with more wins than the entire grid combined, and should get some respect for that, even if it was only for giving something to write about for longer than Bensons career in F1.

Schumacher doesnt need the pussy footing hamilton got/gets after yet another howler, but twisting reality and press conferences about Schumacher on each and every moment to write tabloid headlines is disgusting journalism and BBC unworthy.


I couldn't agree more.

I read the article myself and also read all the articles containing the interviews he quoted from IN FULL, with all the CONTEXT preserved.

He has very conveniently twisted words. We see all the time, words being twisted and played in headlines to catch the attention of readers. You then read and realise that it wasn't as the headlines implied. Benson carries it a step further in that he does in his article, the very same thing he does with his headlines. It's amazing really. I read autosport.com mainly and not much BBC. However, this fellow is really unprofessional in his biased views and positions. I would have thought that there's a professional responsibility in this regard when it comes to journalism.

#20157 Coops3

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Posted 25 May 2012 - 22:01

I read that article earlier and thought at the time the headline was misleading as well. He's used similar misleading headlines relating to other drivers in the past as well though, I doubt he's got anything against Schumacher. Hell, he might not even come up with the headlines.

#20158 Jejking

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Posted 25 May 2012 - 22:12

I read that article earlier and thought at the time the headline was misleading as well. He's used similar misleading headlines relating to other drivers in the past as well though, I doubt he's got anything against Schumacher. Hell, he might not even come up with the headlines.

Every writer provides his own titles. So unless a major screw-up has been working in the editing department and doing a marvelously bad meaning-twisting job for the last couple of years, I suspect it IS the guy himself responsible for it.

#20159 Juan Kerr

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Posted 25 May 2012 - 22:13

I think everyone must agree that Andrew Benson is definitely not up to standard regarding the BBC. Also never mind the poorly informed judgement on things when has he ever written anything that any idiot sat in their armchair couldn't have thought up ?

Regarding Michael Schumacher, he's looked as quick as the car is capable of at the very least. How low must be your IQ be if you think Schumacher's performance level is based on tripping over a car braking very early whilst changing their line suddenly, a gearbox failure, a wheel failure and a grid penalty that left his race ruined ?

There really is some stupid people in this world.

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#20160 Schumacher7

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Posted 25 May 2012 - 22:35

Looks like this! Don't believe in podium or victory of Schumi anymore!

I think it wasn't good idea to come back in F1 for him! Now there will be a very different memory....he will has lost much!!

Bit in bold is true.
Bit in italics isn't, he's lost nothing reputationwise, nobody in their right mind will say that the failed comeback shows he wasn't as good as his seven world championships make out, the fact that at 43 (nearly ten years after winning his world championships) he is able to be pretty competitive against the "young guns" of F1 shows that surely he was something incredibly special in his prime.

#20161 Schumacher7

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Posted 25 May 2012 - 22:45

THIS is something which need ALL the drivers! LUCK is a word too much used in relation with the Schumi-comeback.....I think!

No drivers do not rely on luck per se but it is essential not to be unlucky. Michael has been unlucky but does not need luck, he needs not to be unlucky, there is a distinction.

#20162 aditya-now

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Posted 25 May 2012 - 22:48

I am making my way to Frankfurt (from Toronto). You can tell me then all about Monaco. :D


Oh, nice - I am making my way to Salzburg from The Hague - we are in the same (transit) boat
as usual. Hope to catch the GP on Sunday though....

 ;)


#20163 aditya-now

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Posted 25 May 2012 - 22:51

Not really, I'd like him to improve but he doesn't need to....

Oh and I don't appreciate being called delusional. :p


I also don't think that Michael needs to improve. A perennial champion like him is far beyond needing to improve.


#20164 aditya-now

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Posted 25 May 2012 - 22:58

No drivers do not rely on luck per se but it is essential not to be unlucky. Michael has been unlucky but does not need luck, he needs not to be unlucky, there is a distinction.


In a way Michael has always been very lucky in his first career and very unlucky in his second career. Karma is a bitch.


#20165 Schumacher7

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Posted 25 May 2012 - 23:06

In a way Michael has always been very lucky in his first career and very unlucky in his second career. Karma is a bitch.

Was he lucky though, or was he simply not unlucky, I'd say rock solid reliability is down mostly to a lot of hard work and also not being unlucky, luck I'd class as being in second place with the leader crashing out giving you the win, I can't think of any times off the top of my head although I'm sure there are a couple, (was it Raikonnen or Hakkinen that broke down on the last lap of a race? Did Schumacher win that one?). But then luck's a strange concept because you can argue that he was lucky to not be unlucky when obviously chance played no part in him not being unlucky. There's no chance involved in anything really, you can not know things therefore giving the illusion of many possible outcomes but ultimately there can only ever be one outcome to an identical sequence of events.

#20166 Coops3

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Posted 25 May 2012 - 23:20

Was he lucky though, or was he simply not unlucky, I'd say rock solid reliability is down mostly to a lot of hard work and also not being unlucky, luck I'd class as being in second place with the leader crashing out giving you the win, I can't think of any times off the top of my head although I'm sure there are a couple, (was it Raikonnen or Hakkinen that broke down on the last lap of a race? Did Schumacher win that one?). But then luck's a strange concept because you can argue that he was lucky to not be unlucky when obviously chance played no part in him not being unlucky. There's no chance involved in anything really, you can not know things therefore giving the illusion of many possible outcomes but ultimately there can only ever be one outcome to an identical sequence of events.


A quantum physicist would disagree with you.

/leftfield! :drunk:

My serious point would be: Basically it sounds like you're saying there's no such thing as luck. I'm not sure I agree with that - some things simply can't be predicted.

#20167 ali_M

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Posted 25 May 2012 - 23:48

Was he lucky though, or was he simply not unlucky, I'd say rock solid reliability is down mostly to a lot of hard work and also not being unlucky, luck I'd class as being in second place with the leader crashing out giving you the win, I can't think of any times off the top of my head although I'm sure there are a couple, (was it Raikonnen or Hakkinen that broke down on the last lap of a race? Did Schumacher win that one?). But then luck's a strange concept because you can argue that he was lucky to not be unlucky when obviously chance played no part in him not being unlucky. There's no chance involved in anything really, you can not know things therefore giving the illusion of many possible outcomes but ultimately there can only ever be one outcome to an identical sequence of events.


Huh? :stoned:

#20168 IceSkyrim

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Posted 26 May 2012 - 00:06

I think it wasn't good idea to come back in F1 for him! Now there will be a very different memory....he will has lost much!!

It wasn't a good idea to come back while Alonso is still there, right  ;)

And it just got even worse when Kimi came back with his stellar race pace :love:

Indeed, the amount of money Schumacher just lost in the perpetuity of future incomes by diluting his stats with bad results and the inability to succed in different racing regulations is impossible to calculate. :eek:

I mean, just look at the other Michael, the Jordan one. Even after decades retired - with fails in later comebacks - Jordan is one of the guys that makes more money, year after year... peat, peat, peat...

#20169 exmayol

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Posted 26 May 2012 - 00:25

It wasn't a good idea to come back while Alonso is still there, right  ;)

And it just got even worse when Kimi came back with his stellar race pace :love:

Indeed, the amount of money Schumacher just lost in the perpetuity of future incomes by diluting his stats with bad results and the inability to succed in different racing regulations is impossible to calculate. :eek:

I mean, just look at the other Michael, the Jordan one. Even after decades retired - with fails in later comebacks - Jordan is one of the guys that makes more money, year after year... peat, peat, peat...


I dont think MS is concerned about making more money. He is 43, he does what he is passionate about, has a place in an extremely competetive sport on merit, etc... what's not to be content about?

While M. Jordan is probably an extremely successful man too he has chosen one path while MS has chosen another. You can't earn all the money anyway...

#20170 sensible

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Posted 26 May 2012 - 00:33

At least one fellow driver agrees with MSC...what's up with the others?

Well trouble is he has the "english" stewards against him.
Did anyone see Derrick (who) warwick on sky?
His considered opinion was 100% biassed anti schumi - and he is a fkin steward.
Now in this incident - I truly think you could see it either way. You could make a pretty good case to say it was senna's fault or say it was schumi's fault. But to see it in such a one sided way as warwank shows such bias that it amazes me he can be a steward. He even went as far as to claim that senna was "trying to get out of schumachers way" by moving to the INSIDE. The crash may have been michaels fault but there is no way you move to the inside line to let some one by!!!

With this sort of idiot as a steward, no wonder michael gets penalised!

Edited by sensible, 26 May 2012 - 00:34.


#20171 Longtimefan

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Posted 26 May 2012 - 00:41

Well trouble is he has the "english" stewards against him.
Did anyone see Derrick (who) warwick on sky?
His considered opinion was 100% biassed anti schumi - and he is a fkin steward.
Now in this incident - I truly think you could see it either way. You could make a pretty good case to say it was senna's fault or say it was schumi's fault. But to see it in such a one sided way as warwank shows such bias that it amazes me he can be a steward. He even went as far as to claim that senna was "trying to get out of schumachers way" by moving to the INSIDE. The crash may have been michaels fault but there is no way you move to the inside line to let some one by!!!

With this sort of idiot as a steward, no wonder michael gets penalised!


Well said, I agree 100%

#20172 sensible

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Posted 26 May 2012 - 00:46

To all the antis - some facts:
From 1994-2004 Michael Schumacher won 7 out of a possible 11 championships. Of the other 4, in one he was injured for a approximately one third of the season and was thereore unable to win it, in two others he lost the wdc by 1 race (ie if that 1 race had gone the other way he would have been wdc) and in the other he was 3rd in the 3rd best car.
If you can show me one - just one - driver who even comes close to that kind of record over that many years then I may bother to even enter a debate that that person was the best F1 driver ever. Until then, get back in your hole. F1 is about winning!
The reason that before michael and after michael there were many "great" drivers competing for championships is that michael was a literally exceptional driver whereas the others wre just among a small elite in their respective generations. So Andrew Benson and others of your ilk, a FACT based answer would be illuminating.


#20173 Muz Bee

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Posted 26 May 2012 - 00:46

So much angst over a B Grade journalist's slanted headline and manipulation of Brawn's comment. I would think Ross would be giving, at the least, a pass mark to Michael for 2012. Easily more convincing than the previous 2 seasons, he has shown some flashes of top level of driving, perhaps brilliant would be an overstatement. I am in two minds about Rosberg, who really didn't get the job done in the first 2 weekends and his reputation as a rock solid over-qualifier took a hit with costly errors we hadn't seen of late. Of course Shanghai causes one to draw breath and wonder if he has recaptured the form he had seemed to have lost or whether it is just Michael doing a much better job. Too early to say IMHO.

#20174 IceSkyrim

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Posted 26 May 2012 - 00:48

Well trouble is he has the "english" stewards against him.
Did anyone see Derrick (who) warwick on sky?

The man was feared by Senna.  ;)

#20175 sensible

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Posted 26 May 2012 - 00:52

The man was feared by Senna. ;)

why - was he a steward when senna raced as well?;)

#20176 IceSkyrim

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Posted 26 May 2012 - 01:19

why - was he a steward when senna raced as well?;)

Do you know the Lotus story ? :wave:

#20177 Ferrari_F1_fan_2001

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Posted 26 May 2012 - 03:46

I wonder if Benson gets paid by the word? Because he seems to repeat the same sh*te over and over again. Just think of all the money he must have made using Schumacher's name.

#20178 man

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Posted 26 May 2012 - 04:59

Delboy never liked Schumacher and it dates back to their sportscar days. I seem to recall Derek physically roughing up the young German in te paddock after some dodgy on track antics.

I agree - Andrew Benson is a bit of a numpty when it comes to journalism. However, Schumachers driving has been of a poor standard an at times reckless and dangerous.

#20179 baddog

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Posted 26 May 2012 - 05:42

I agree - Andrew Benson is a bit of a numpty when it comes to journalism. However, Schumachers driving has been of a poor standard an at times reckless and dangerous.

This year??

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#20180 ivand911

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Posted 26 May 2012 - 07:26

And it just got even worse when Kimi came back with his stellar race pace :love:

Why MS don't have stellar race pace? :confused: Maybe because his car/tyre combination is one second slower that Kimi's in last two races? We saw Kimi stellar pace in China. 7-8 positions lost in one lap, MS with his not stellar race pace didn't mange such disgrace. Stellar race pace comes from the car/tyre combo, not from the driver.

Edited by ivand911, 26 May 2012 - 07:29.


#20181 glorius&victorius

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Posted 26 May 2012 - 07:36

Why MS don't have stellar race pace? :confused: Maybe because his car/tyre combination is one second slower that Kimi's in last two races? We saw Kimi stellar pace in China. 7-8 positions lost in one lap, MS with his not stellar race pace didn't mange such disgrace. Stellar race pace comes from the car/tyre combo, not from the driver.


thanks for clarifying that the 6 wdc's were from superior machinery.
and the 1st was of course for graciously punting another driver of the track.

#20182 ivand911

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Posted 26 May 2012 - 07:42

thanks for clarifying that the 6 wdc's were from superior machinery.
and the 1st was of course for graciously punting another driver of the track.

If you think that, OK, I don't have problem with that. Yes, all years he have car 1 sec faster than the rest. Maybe there is data that can prove that?


#20183 ali.unal

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Posted 26 May 2012 - 08:02

thanks for clarifying that the 6 wdc's were from superior machinery.
and the 1st was of course for graciously punting another driver of the track.

That, I call irony (together with your avatar).

Posted Image

Edited by ali.unal, 26 May 2012 - 08:03.


#20184 IceSkyrim

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Posted 26 May 2012 - 10:22

thanks for clarifying that the 6 wdc's were from superior machinery.
and the 1st was of course for graciously punting another driver of the track.

:eek: Wooo-ho... MS fans cornered in their own thread :p

#20185 Schumacher7

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Posted 26 May 2012 - 10:31

A quantum physicist would disagree with you.

/leftfield! :drunk:

My serious point would be: Basically it sounds like you're saying there's no such thing as luck. I'm not sure I agree with that - some things simply can't be predicted.

No, I'm saying there's no such thing as chance. I think luck can be defined instead as something that works in your favour when you have no direct input in it or lack the knowledge to be able to calculate the outcome and this obviously is something that does happen.
And it is physics that guarantees if something happens identically each time there can be no deviation in the result, something would have to change for there to be a different outcome, and the idea that the universe splits after every decision is probably bullshit. That part of quantum physics is all theory with little evidence behind it.

Edit: And I've gone very off topic sorry. :L

Edited by Schumacher7, 26 May 2012 - 10:49.


#20186 spacekid

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Posted 26 May 2012 - 10:31

This is supposed to be a place to talk about motorsport, and in this thread how Schumi is getting along, not a place to 'corner' fans or have some sort of fan bash. It is incredibly tiring and makes it so hard for actual fans of the sport to use and enjoy the forum.

IceSkyrim and G&V, what are you trying to prove with this? Why do you have to keep littering the thread with this nonsense?

Anyway, not a promising set of practise sessions for Schumi in Monaco, but then the times look to be all over the place. I reckon he'll be starting the race from 15th. Its going to be a long afternoon tomorrow...


#20187 ivand911

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Posted 26 May 2012 - 10:32

:eek: Wooo-ho... MS fans cornered in their own thread :p

Wooo-ho, No. It backfire as you can see. :wave: But, still keep trying.

#20188 Atonal

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Posted 26 May 2012 - 10:47

Schumacher might be trying for a single stop tomorrow given that he will most likely be somewhere from 10-15 on the grid. That might explain somewhat his long stints on the soft tyre. Anyways tough qualifying and race tomorrow, another gloomy weekend as a Schuamcher fan. I do wish to be surprised though :)

#20189 zelpre

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Posted 26 May 2012 - 10:48

Schumacher might be trying for a single stop tomorrow given that he will most likely be somewhere from 10-15 on the grid. That might explain somewhat his long stints on the soft tyre. Anyways tough qualifying and race tomorrow, another gloomy weekend as a Schuamcher fan. I do wish to be surprised though :)


Impossible.

#20190 spacekid

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Posted 26 May 2012 - 10:48

No, I'm saying there's no such thing as chance. I think luck can be defined instead as something that works in your favour when you have no direct input in it or lack the knowledge to be able to calculate the outcome and this obviously is something that does happen.
And it is physics that guarantees if something happens identically each time there can be no deviation in the result, something would have to change for there to be a different outcome, and the idea that the universe splits after every decision is probably bullshit. That part of quantum physics is all theory with no evidence behind it.


This is really interesting on all sorts of levels. Lets consider the manufacture of an engine - it isn't luck or chance that defines how many miles the engine will last, there are tiny inaccuracies in the construction that will eventually lead to failures and overstressed parts. However, I think there is an element of randomness in where these innacuracies of faults are, and a further element of randomness in which driver gets an engine which just happens to be more likely to go bang first.

To put it another way, russian roulette isn't random. If you know all the factors involved you know where the barrel will stop when you spin it. But no one can reasonably actually calculate that, so it ends up as luck.

Regards the true nature of the universe - who knows? Maybe humans will never find out. It doesn't really matter, all quantum theory does is give us a frame work to describe what we observe and make predictions. The theory works well enough, whether or not it is actually describing what is happening doesn't matter to me.

#20191 Pizdek

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Posted 26 May 2012 - 10:49

Schumacher might be trying for a single stop tomorrow given that he will most likely be somewhere from 10-15 on the grid. That might explain somewhat his long stints on the soft tyre. Anyways tough qualifying and race tomorrow, another gloomy weekend as a Schuamcher fan. I do wish to be surprised though :)


It would be better gone fishing. :lol:


#20192 ali.unal

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Posted 26 May 2012 - 10:52

Impossible.

Not that impossible. Soft tyres will last 50 odd laps. So, if he can manage to last quali-supersofts for 15-16 laps, he can go the end with softs for ~60 laps. Long shot, but worth tyring.

#20193 MortenF1

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Posted 26 May 2012 - 10:54

Impossible.


A one-stopper is absolutely do-able. Vettel did it last year, but with the race stopped that turned into a two-"stopper".
I think the best Schumacher can hope for, is lining up on the sixth row, but as I've written earlier; from there he can actually have a very, very good race one-stopping.

Edited by race addicted, 26 May 2012 - 10:55.


#20194 ali.unal

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Posted 26 May 2012 - 10:59

Schumacher's SS try not that slow compared to Rosberg. Here is Rosberg's SS run:

12 1:23.087
13 1:15.751
14 1:26.318
15 1:15.159
16 1:26.958
17 1:15.614

He did alternate his flying laps by putting a slow lap each and every one of them. He did do his fast lap on his second attempt. We also heard him saying it's strange that on his second run rear tyres were better. Here is Schumacher's SS run:

22 1:31.179
23 1:15.893

He didn't get a lap in for his second try. So, in the first attempt, they are evenly matched although we should expect Schumacher's lap to be a tad faster as the track was rubbered in, but still. It's not 0,7s difference like the timing page suggested. It's more close. I stlil believe Rosberg has the upperhand, but Schumi is no slouch as some would make us believe.

Edited by ali.unal, 26 May 2012 - 11:00.


#20195 Jejking

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Posted 26 May 2012 - 11:01

Not that impossible. Soft tyres will last 50 odd laps. So, if he can manage to last quali-supersofts for 15-16 laps, he can go the end with softs for ~60 laps. Long shot, but worth tyring.

Without falling off a cliff? I don't think so, not with these supersofts, last year it was possible but I suspect that in 12 it will be a problem.

#20196 Atonal

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Posted 26 May 2012 - 11:16

Schumacher's SS try not that slow compared to Rosberg. Here is Rosberg's SS run:

12 1:23.087
13 1:15.751
14 1:26.318
15 1:15.159
16 1:26.958
17 1:15.614

He did alternate his flying laps by putting a slow lap each and every one of them. He did do his fast lap on his second attempt. We also heard him saying it's strange that on his second run rear tyres were better. Here is Schumacher's SS run:

22 1:31.179
23 1:15.893

He didn't get a lap in for his second try. So, in the first attempt, they are evenly matched although we should expect Schumacher's lap to be a tad faster as the track was rubbered in, but still. It's not 0,7s difference like the timing page suggested. It's more close. I stlil believe Rosberg has the upperhand, but Schumi is no slouch as some would make us believe.


As I expected, almost all drivers started to hit their top times after the first flyer. Some even got it on their third run. I don't believe Michael will be very far off Nico here, maybe a couple of tenths at most if both get a clean run. One can never discount the traffic variable in Monaco and we don't know what exactly were the obstacles for both the Merc drivers in practice if there were any that is. I remember in 2010 both Michael and Nico went out almost together and both got bogged down by traffic in the form of each other.

Even though Nico has a slight reputation of being a free practice champion he always seems pretty handy in Monaco but he has never been able to stitch up the entire weekend. Maybe this is his year? What is the outlook on the weather as that might throw a spanner in how the Pirelli's work?

#20197 MortenF1

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Posted 26 May 2012 - 11:18

Weather is unchanged. GP2's are racing now and it's roughly the same temps, up two degrees.

#20198 BRK

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Posted 26 May 2012 - 11:29

Tough weekend, even with DRS and the shitty tyres (or maybe because of the shitty tyres) overtaking is a going to be hard here. Hoping for a top 5 quali and some good points starting 10th or behind on the grid. I've mostly stopped watching Pirellimula but for Michael, plus Monaco's always a special weekend. :up:

#20199 MortenF1

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Posted 26 May 2012 - 11:30

'cept there's no DRS here.

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#20200 1Devil1

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Posted 26 May 2012 - 11:34

'cept there's no DRS here.


Again get your facts right :wave: After the start-finish line