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#2051 aditya-now

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Posted 20 May 2010 - 10:15

I'm amazed at how much one thrives on pulling drivers down than being positive about any driver... :down:


Well, I for one am quite positive about Mark Webber, and really, he amazes me with what he is achieving this year - who knows, maybe we are witnessing already the WDC 2010. Together with Robert Kubica definitely the man of the year so far, and this after quite a difficult start to the season.

Contrary to Webbo, Schumi is showing pretty badly in the fastest laps statistic, when compared with the other drivers of the Top Four teams. Out of eight drivers Michael is solid eighth. I post this also as a response to SeanValen who claimed that Schumi had the "fastest laps in Spain and Monaco" - I find Michael´s record in this field abysmal so far - here it is, the number of fastest laps each driver posted in each race so far, plus the total number of fastest laps they have achieved.


Posted Image


Interestingly, drivers like Webber, Vettel, Hamilton and Alonso had a least one fastest lap in every race so far. In Schumi´s case, although his China performance was much frowned upon, he at least managed one fastest lap of the field in China. Not so in Bahrain, Malaysia and even Spain...

Edited by aditya-now, 20 May 2010 - 10:22.


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#2052 Diablobb81

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Posted 20 May 2010 - 10:18

And Rosberg has only double of what Schumi has. Together 28 laps out of 363. What does that tell you?

Oh, and look at the difference between the other teammates. What does that tell you ?

Edited by Diablobb81, 20 May 2010 - 10:19.


#2053 aditya-now

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Posted 20 May 2010 - 10:24

And Rosberg has only double of what Schumi has. Together 28 laps out of 363. What does that tell you?

Oh, and look at the difference between the other teammates. What does that tell you ?


It tells me that the Mercedes is the weakest car of the Top Four, yet Rosberg did twice as many fastest laps as Schumi, in all races bar one.
In the case of the other drivers we also see Webber clearly outdoing Vettel, Hamilton clearly outdoing Button and Alonso outdoing Massa.

To me, this statistic tells a lot...

Edited by aditya-now, 20 May 2010 - 10:25.


#2054 SparkPlug

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Posted 20 May 2010 - 10:25

And Rosberg has only double of what Schumi has. Together 28 laps out of 363. What does that tell you?

Oh, and look at the difference between the other teammates. What does that tell you ?

Lets just say he believes in the motto :
"See what you want to see, hear what you want to hear..."

#2055 aditya-now

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Posted 20 May 2010 - 10:37

Lets just say he believes in the motto :
"See what you want to see, hear what you want to hear..."


I see how many points Michael has compared to Nico, how many times Michael was on the podium compared to Nico, how many times he qualified ahead of Nico and how many fastest laps he posted as shown above.

Further I saw one noteworthy action of Michael so far, and that was in a field in which Michael always has excelled historically: the borderline legal/illegal. For whatever it´s worth, Michael has always created a stir, has always been controversial and this is one of the reasons for me why he has so many believers. People like the excitement he creates.

In that context I wonder if it is not a general human trait to see what you want to see, hear what you want to hear. Even when it comes to Schumi fanboys.

Edited by aditya-now, 20 May 2010 - 10:48.


#2056 baddog

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Posted 20 May 2010 - 11:12

Im trying hard to find ANY actual meaning in that table, but I am unable to extract anything resembling information about driver performance from it.. You might as well have printed a list of random numbers for all it contributes.

There is only one fastest lap in a race. That statistic is in itself one of the least useful and least regarded of the race statistics.. I have however never even seen anyone pretend to care about who was fastest on each counted lap.. that just fails to be useful on so many levels.

I can only assume you used it because of the numbers it produced.

#2057 Hacklerf

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Posted 20 May 2010 - 11:22

This whole last lap at Monaco thing, it interest me to see that Michael is the only one from the grid to attempt this move, it shows he is still switched on

#2058 Diablobb81

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Posted 20 May 2010 - 11:44

It tells me that the Mercedes is the weakest car of the Top Four, yet Rosberg did twice as many fastest laps as Schumi, in all races bar one.
In the case of the other drivers we also see Webber clearly outdoing Vettel, Hamilton clearly outdoing Button and Alonso outdoing Massa.

To me, this statistic tells a lot...


So Webber is 3 times "better/faster" than Vettel.
Hami twice as Button.
Alonso "better/faster" than Massa.

So if Schumacher is "abysmal" how is Vettel based on this statistic? :lol:

Haters gonna hate.

"To me, this statistic tells a lot... "

Clearly.

Edited by Diablobb81, 20 May 2010 - 11:45.


#2059 SparkPlug

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Posted 20 May 2010 - 15:54

I see how many points Michael has compared to Nico, how many times Michael was on the podium compared to Nico, how many times he qualified ahead of Nico and how many fastest laps he posted as shown above.

You forgot to see that he has come back to the sport after 3 years ? How many drivers have come back to the sport at the age of 41 and performed as he has ? I think you're just a little too hard on the man

Further I saw one noteworthy action of Michael so far, and that was in a field in which Michael always has excelled historically: the borderline legal/illegal. For whatever it´s worth, Michael has always created a stir, has always been controversial and this is one of the reasons for me why he has so many believers. People like the excitement he creates.

The FIA has agreed to look at the rules themselves which clearly shows there is something wrong with the rule, and not the move. I dont know what brand of racing you follow, but racing to me is supposed to be exactly about what Schumacher pulled off in the last corner at Monaco.

In that context I wonder if it is not a general human trait to see what you want to see, hear what you want to hear. Even when it comes to Schumi fanboys.

The classic anti-Schumacher comeback. When in a spot, accuse the other of being a fanboy.
I am not even a Schumacher fan, always been a Hakkinen admirer. I dont agree with Schumacher's 2 incidents of cheating but I acknowledge the man's talent and is in my mind the best ever. You dont have to be a fanboy to see that. In fact I have observed that there are a few people who keep bringing up absolutely worthless arguments like that table above to somehow discredit the man. I am pretty sure Alain Prost will FAIL miserably in a table of "fastest laps" even in many of his victories, because he always believed in "winning at the slowest speed" . Does that somehow show him in poor light ? Does that mean his 4 championships are worthless ?

Does this one table of fastest laps prove anything at all except for the fact that the Mercedes is slower than its rivals ? You can be in 17th place on a clear piece of track and still have more fastest laps than the guy running in 5th place.
Take a step back and relax, you achieve little more than a few angry replies with worthless stats and jibes against a driver. Just a piece of advice.


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#2060 aditya-now

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Posted 20 May 2010 - 15:59

So Webber is 3 times "better/faster" than Vettel.
Hami twice as Button.
Alonso "better/faster" than Massa.

So if Schumacher is "abysmal" how is Vettel based on this statistic? :lol:

Haters gonna hate.

"To me, this statistic tells a lot... "

Clearly.


How is Vettel based on this statistic?

In trouble, I would say. Looks like Webbo has the upper hand on him.
Numbers have nothing to do with hate, they just show the reality.

I would rather say that the Schumacher apologists still see what they want to see and have now pinned all their hope on the dubious move that Schumi pulled on Alonso, when Fernando was told "No overtaking".
Would be interesting to see if roles where reversed and Alonso had incorrectly overtaken MS, Schumi had been told "No overtaking", what an outroar then by the Schumacher fanboys...


#2061 Craven Morehead

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Posted 20 May 2010 - 16:17

That table really takes the cake in the useless statistics stakes. I've never seen anyone try that before, so "A" for effort, I suppose. :lol: Too bad it means absolutely nothing.

#2062 Augurk

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Posted 20 May 2010 - 17:17

Numbers have nothing to do with hate, they just show the reality.

Funny how if a Schumacher supporter shows numbers they are always cast aside for whatever reasons people can come up with....

I think that if you are trying to somehow diminish Schumacher with numbers and statistics you are climbing a really steep hill.

Edited by Augurk, 20 May 2010 - 17:20.


#2063 eoin

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Posted 20 May 2010 - 17:59

Well, I for one am quite positive about Mark Webber, and really, he amazes me with what he is achieving this year - who knows, maybe we are witnessing already the WDC 2010. Together with Robert Kubica definitely the man of the year so far, and this after quite a difficult start to the season.

Contrary to Webbo, Schumi is showing pretty badly in the fastest laps statistic, when compared with the other drivers of the Top Four teams. Out of eight drivers Michael is solid eighth. I post this also as a response to SeanValen who claimed that Schumi had the "fastest laps in Spain and Monaco" - I find Michael´s record in this field abysmal so far - here it is, the number of fastest laps each driver posted in each race so far, plus the total number of fastest laps they have achieved.


Posted Image


Interestingly, drivers like Webber, Vettel, Hamilton and Alonso had a least one fastest lap in every race so far. In Schumi´s case, although his China performance was much frowned upon, he at least managed one fastest lap of the field in China. Not so in Bahrain, Malaysia and even Spain...


So Schumacher is doing a better job than Vettel as Rosberg is only outperforming him by X2.5, where as Webber is beating Vettel by nearly 3 fold! It also suggests that Schumacher had a worse weekend in Spain than he did in China, even though China was one of his worst performances in f1! It also appears that Rosberg had a better weekend in Spain, where he was lapped, that he did at Sepang where he was on the podium!

Keep up the good work! :lol:

#2064 Craven Morehead

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Posted 20 May 2010 - 18:41

How is Vettel based on this statistic?

In trouble, I would say. Looks like Webbo has the upper hand on him.
Numbers have nothing to do with hate, they just show the reality.

I would rather say that the Schumacher apologists still see what they want to see and have now pinned all their hope on the dubious move that Schumi pulled on Alonso, when Fernando was told "No overtaking".
Would be interesting to see if roles where reversed and Alonso had incorrectly overtaken MS, Schumi had been told "No overtaking", what an outroar then by the Schumacher fanboys...


As noted, the stat is completely irrelevent/ useless. Each driver was facing completely different conditions than his team mate on any given lap, so a comparison of lap times is meh.

In response to your other comment. While I am no Schumi 'fanboy' (I am a fan if F1 & don't really have any driver preferences), I respect his remarkable achievments in the sport. I can honestly say that if the shcu ;) had been on the other foot (IE Alonso had passed MS under green after the safety car flag), I would be here arguing that Alonso should not be penalized. To me it is clear: 40.4 requires that the yellows & SC boards be waverd for the duration of the SC period, ergo Monaco 2010 did not end under the SC, and ANY passes made under green after the safety car line were valid. It will be interesting how the FIA chooses to 'clarify' this rule. I'll bet they will make it clear that the marshals must continue to show yellows.

Edited by Craven Morehead, 20 May 2010 - 19:28.


#2065 aditya-now

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Posted 20 May 2010 - 22:44

That table really takes the cake in the useless statistics stakes. I've never seen anyone try that before, so "A" for effort, I suppose. :lol: Too bad it means absolutely nothing.


Well, it shows the PURPLE laps of each driver in each race.
Redback was the one who assembled this list, I just copied it over from the Webber vs Vettel thread, as it is also highly relevant in the Webber/Vettel comparison.
Mark my words, Webber is a force this year.

As noted, the stat is completely irrelevent/ useless. Each driver was facing completely different conditions than his team mate on any given lap, so a comparison of lap times is meh.

In response to your other comment. While I am no Schumi 'fanboy' (I am a fan if F1 & don't really have any driver preferences), I respect his remarkable achievments in the sport. I can honestly say that if the shcu ;) had been on the other foot (IE Alonso had passed MS under green after the safety car flag), I would be here arguing that Alonso should not be penalized. To me it is clear: 40.4 requires that the yellows & SC boards be waverd for the duration of the SC period, ergo Monaco 2010 did not end under the SC, and ANY passes made under green after the safety car line were valid. It will be interesting how the FIA chooses to 'clarify' this rule. I'll bet they will make it clear that the marshals must continue to show yellows.


Fair enough, Morehead. If it goes both ways, defending Schumi or defending Alonso, whoever it would be, that´s perfectly fine with me.
BTW, I always enjoy your posts as they are measured.

And yes, the marshals must continue to show yellows. Clearly a mistake from race control. To punish Schumi with 20 secs was beyond it, on the other hand, because of this rules insecurity, for Alonso to lose position as he was told "no overtaking" would also have been unfair. So a time penalty of 0,8 secs would have been sufficient.

Let us see how the World Council clears the matter on June 23rd.

http://www.formula1....10/5/10814.html

Edited by aditya-now, 20 May 2010 - 22:53.


#2066 aditya-now

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Posted 20 May 2010 - 22:46

Im trying hard to find ANY actual meaning in that table, but I am unable to extract anything resembling information about driver performance from it.. You might as well have printed a list of random numbers for all it contributes.
.


Well, you are obviously not familiar with LIVE TIMING from formula1.com.
These are simply the purple laps per driver per race.


#2067 Craven Morehead

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Posted 20 May 2010 - 23:03

Well, it shows the PURPLE laps of each driver in each race.
Redback was the one who assembled this list, I just copied it over from the Webber vs Vettel thread, as it is also highly relevant in the Webber/Vettel comparison.
Mark my words, Webber is a force this year.


I guess I just never put much value into fast laps as they're dependent on so many variables.

I agree that Webber is a force this year. I've always rated him, and last year he was coming back from serious injury. having hurt myself a few times over the years, I can't help but think it affected him. Mark could well turn out to be our next WDC. Whodathunkit!

Fair enough, Morehead.


That's Mr. Morehead if you don't mind. :lol:


#2068 Messi10

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Posted 20 May 2010 - 23:11

I am impressed by Webber and the numbers from that table..

Vettel is rated as the fastest of the two but this is telling us something different..

Maybe Vettel has the advantage in Q because he can get the perfect lap more often than Webber on those closing seconds under intense pressure to deliver.. Also there was that race where he overtook Webber at the start ..





#2069 aditya-now

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Posted 20 May 2010 - 23:11

That's Mr. Morehead if you don't mind. :lol:


Fair enough, Craven!


#2070 lykaschufan

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Posted 20 May 2010 - 23:13

I don't understand the purpose of the table.

Plus an * is missing for Malaysia for Schumi.

Here are some other numbers that don't lie:


MS:91 wins, 7 WDC



Nothing more to be said.

But no worries to the maker of the table and stat-compiler: I bet all those other drivers in the table will feel really happy seeing that they are beating MS where it really counts, should they happen upon that table..

#2071 aditya-now

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Posted 20 May 2010 - 23:14

I don't understand the purpose of the table.

Plus an * is missing for Malaysia for Schumi.

Here are some other numbers that don't lie:


MS:91 wins, 7 WDC



Nothing more to be said.

But no worries to the maker of the table and stat-compiler: I bet all those other drivers in the table will feel really happy seeing that they are beating MS where it really counts, should they happen upon that table..


We are discussing Michael´s exploits in 2010.
For 91 wins, 7 WDC, go to TNF...

#2072 lykaschufan

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Posted 20 May 2010 - 23:20

I like to throw around numbers too. Valid ones

What do fastest laps count for in 2010?

0

Edited by lykaschufan, 20 May 2010 - 23:20.


#2073 baddog

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Posted 21 May 2010 - 01:37

Well, you are obviously not familiar with LIVE TIMING from formula1.com.
These are simply the purple laps per driver per race.

I said actual meaning.

There are lots of sets of numbers available to extract, but this one is useless as it measures nothing interesting or relevant. Unless you especially like the colour purple?

#2074 Messi10

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Posted 21 May 2010 - 03:24

Those numbers are not totally meaningless. The general concept is that RedBull is way faster than everyone else, they have 137 fastest laps.. We've seen that Mclaren and Ferrari are displaying almost the same performance on the races but they're still behind RBR.. Mclaren has 66 Fastest laps and Ferrari has 67.
We also know that Mercedes is the fourth team but way behind Mclaren and Ferrari - they have 28 fastest laps..

These lap numbers can certainly be use to measure performance..

Edited by Messi10, 21 May 2010 - 03:25.


#2075 cheapracer

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Posted 21 May 2010 - 03:36

I see how many points Michael has compared to Nico, how many times Michael was on the podium compared to Nico, how many times he qualified ahead of Nico and how many fastest laps he posted as shown above.


Your in the wrong thread, there is already a MS Vs NR thread and Sean valen was talking about fastest laps between the 2, not the field, get a clue.

Why is this thread now talking about the entire field rather than MS?


#2076 cheapracer

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Posted 21 May 2010 - 03:38

We are discussing Michael´s exploits in 2010.
For 91 wins, 7 WDC, go to TNF...


Read the thread title again then come back and say sorry.


#2077 baddog

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Posted 21 May 2010 - 03:39

Those numbers are not totally meaningless. The general concept is that RedBull is way faster than everyone else, they have 137 fastest laps.. We've seen that Mclaren and Ferrari are displaying almost the same performance on the races but they're still behind RBR.. Mclaren has 66 Fastest laps and Ferrari has 67.
We also know that Mercedes is the fourth team but way behind Mclaren and Ferrari - they have 28 fastest laps..

These lap numbers can certainly be use to measure performance..


They certainly can not. A car/driver combo could be the second fastest on the track for the entire race and not score a single point in your system.. while someone else could be much slower on the whole and yet by quirk get points. Its a nonsense.

Even an absolute fastest lap list is a notoriously flawed statistic (it depends on strategy and track position far too much) but this one is 20 times worse.

Just drop it and find some other numbers, really.

#2078 Zdeus

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Posted 21 May 2010 - 07:05

Im trying hard to find ANY actual meaning in that table, but I am unable to extract anything resembling information about driver performance from it.. You might as well have printed a list of random numbers for all it contributes.


There is no logic in those numbers or any of the statistics this guy tries to push and impose as the holy grail. I've studied statistics for years to know how they can be used to make a point either ways. This gentleman if he really believes the numbers , should just go and look at Michael's record :lol:

Rubbish set of random numbers published here above :down:

#2079 Augurk

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Posted 21 May 2010 - 08:05

By his logic someone who leads the race from start to finish, after having scored the pole position and setting the fastest lap in the final lap (showing he's definitely got it in him to drive a fastest lap) but is nurturing his car and tyres for the duration of the race still would be the lesser driver to someone who was faster than those behind him who have to push for defense/attacking after they have mocked up their own starts.

Great logic!

The (single) fastest lap comparison between team mates, as in who drove the fastest lap of the two in the race, has more meaning to it than this idiotic stat.

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#2080 monaco

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Posted 21 May 2010 - 08:15

The detractors of Schumacher really are just jealous and they have a good reason to be:

Here's a guy who has achieved everything one can achieve in his field and now, at the age of 41, can afford to do what he likes the most just for fun, without much pressure. On top of that he has a happy and balanced private life, a loving wife, two children, he has confidence, he has natural authority, he has intelligence. Basically he has everything. I can see why some people feel jealous looking at all that and are so desperate to put his achievements down.

Thing is, he probably couldn't care less. You just look at his interviews and you can see and feel he has a lot of fun. And it's great to see. That's why he came back and good for him! People who say he should stay home to nurture his reputation are trapped into this media craziness about reputations and statistics and all that. What about fun? We only live once and if this is what makes him happy then he should do this. He is a lucky guy that he still can do what he likes the most. Whether he is as good as he used to be is secondary. He can afford it to be secondary now, because he has done it all before. But I can see how and why that makes some people jealous.


Absolutely agree on your assessment of Michael's perspective about his return to racing :)

#2081 aditya-now

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Posted 21 May 2010 - 09:05

Im trying hard to find ANY actual meaning in that table, but I am unable to extract anything resembling information about driver performance from it.. You might as well have printed a list of random numbers for all it contributes.

There is only one fastest lap in a race. That statistic is in itself one of the least useful and least regarded of the race statistics.. I have however never even seen anyone pretend to care about who was fastest on each counted lap.. that just fails to be useful on so many levels.

I can only assume you used it because of the numbers it produced.


Purple laps is a great stat, far more useful than fast lap.

It goes to show we're not nuts, we've been saying that apart from bahrain Webber´s race pace has been as good as if not better than Vettel's but he's gotta qualify Vettel. If he gets to T1 before Vettel .... look out.




#2082 aditya-now

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Posted 21 May 2010 - 09:12

Read the thread title again then come back and say sorry.


You obviously did not read the OP:

Aim of this thread is to discuss issues related to Michael Schumacher. After Bahrain voices were heard about several weaknesses in his current cornering technique. It is my hope we can continue in that spirit, and check on him through the season.

I wish to welcome all, friends and also those ready for conversion as well.;)



Note:"after Bahrain" and "check on him through the season".

If you want to discuss Michael`s historic record, go to TNF...

Expressly "all" have been welcomed to this thread, and while I am "ready for conversion", Michael still has not done enough to warrant that conversion. ;)

Why is this thread now talking about the entire field rather than MS?


Because Michael is not competing in a vacuum but racing against those very drivers mentioned. They are his yardstick. And while I understand that you would prefer to talk about Michael in isolation, so as not to be necessitated to ascertain that Michael clearly hasn´t got it so far, I see eight other drivers ahead of him.

Michael at present is the ninth best driver in the 2010 championship, a good achievement for anyone, especially for someone carrying the name Michael Schumacher.
He is a full 34 points behind the eighth best driver, his teammate Nico Rosberg. And a full 37 points behind the seventh best driver, Robert Kubica, who drives the Renault which is certainly not as strong as the Mercedes that Michael is driving.

So get real - maybe Michael will still show us what he is really about and really made of, and then I will be gladly "converted" to the belief you 20+ fierce MS worshippers are exhibiting on these pages.
Meanwhile, accept the fact that there is more than one perspective to look at Michael's exploits...

Edited by aditya-now, 21 May 2010 - 09:26.


#2083 Augurk

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Posted 21 May 2010 - 09:14

With the amount of tyre and car nurturing out there it is entirely irrelevant to look at such a thing over the course of the race. The only way to allow for it to have any meaning is to only look at the moments under which the drivers deemed it necessary to go all out. As that is a completely subjective judgement made by the drivers themselves, supported by the teams' radio comments at certain points, it is an absolutely impossible way of measuring driver performance.

By your assumption a driver pushing out fastest lap after fastest lap and retiring at a certain point for blowing its engine, or destroying its tyres and ending up in the gravel with a flat is a better driver than the one cruising home to a solid victory.

Get real.

#2084 FenderJaguar

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Posted 21 May 2010 - 09:20

I don't want tyregate to derail this thread again, but subscribers should read 'A Dinner in Paris', an interview with Pierre Dupasquier by Bira here.


I don't want to make this a tire thread either. Just would like to point out that by 2004 it was in Michelin's interest to say that their tire was always "legal".
The fact that they won and won and won in 2003 and looked unstoppable until Monza and then nothing - is more interesting - why was that? Pierre from Michelin is probably lying in his company's best interest

I've read a lot about Michelin teams who had to deal with the more narrow tire Michelin had to bring to Monza and I believe them. This is from wikipedia about the Williams of 2003. "A new, wider front tyre introduced by Michelin at the Monaco Grand Prix unlocked the potential of the FW25, which would win that race, score a double-podium at the Canadian Grand Prix, then go on to score dominant 1-2 victories at the European Grand Prix at the Nürburgring, and the next race, the French Grand Prix at Magny-Cours.

A change to the front tyre width caused by a protest lodged by Michelin's rivals Bridgestone, through the Ferrari team after the Hungarian Grand Prix caused controversy through the paddock, with Williams tipped to lose their competitive edge after that race due to a slimmer tyre design being raced at the Italian Grand Prix at Monza being seemingly at odds with the wider tyre that Williams brought with great effect to the Monaco Grand Prix. Despite Montoya's second place at Monza, being able to stay with eventual World Champion Michael Schumacher's Ferrari throughout the whole race, the FW25 would not win a race in the final three races of the season, the Italian GP, United States GP and Japanese GP took place after the tyre redesign. In fact, after Montoya's second place at the Italian Grand Prix at Monza - the FW25 would not earn another podium in the 2003 season, although Montoya led the final race at Suzuka before retiring with a hydraulics problem."




#2085 aditya-now

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Posted 21 May 2010 - 09:33

By your assumption a driver pushing out fastest lap after fastest lap and retiring at a certain point for blowing its engine, or destroying its tyres and ending up in the gravel with a flat is a better driver than the one cruising home to a solid victory.

Get real.


Not so.

If you look at the purple laps classification and the WDC standings you will see, that three out of the four leaders in the purple laps stats are also the three leaders in the WDC standings. So this table is quite indicative after all. The one exception is, as you mentioned above, yes, and I whisper the name, Lewis Hamilton.

Also Michael's positioning in the purple laps stats and in the WDC are widely correlating. So it is far from being a useless stat but reflects very well the balance of powers this season, possibly even more than the single fastest lap of a race.


#2086 baddog

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Posted 21 May 2010 - 10:19

You can bang this drum all day and it wont get any less stupid. It MIGHT be a vaguely useful stat to compare two drivers who are both in the best car in the field, but for anyone else it is nonsense. It ONLY diferentiates the fastest lap up to that moment from all other laps, and makes no differentiation below that, which is ridiculous when you are assessing drivers in, for example, the fourth best car. Any purple lap they post is merely indicative of the irrelevance of the stat, not that they were the fastest package.


#2087 Augurk

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Posted 21 May 2010 - 10:49

Not so.

If you look at the purple laps classification and the WDC standings you will see, that three out of the four leaders in the purple laps stats are also the three leaders in the WDC standings. So this table is quite indicative after all. The one exception is, as you mentioned above, yes, and I whisper the name, Lewis Hamilton.

Also Michael's positioning in the purple laps stats and in the WDC are widely correlating. So it is far from being a useless stat but reflects very well the balance of powers this season, possibly even more than the single fastest lap of a race.

It's not quite indicative at all. Webber is tied with Vettel in the points. You are trying to use this to prove something in a team battle. That fact alone proves it is actually 100% worthless for such a goal.

#2088 Dragonfly

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Posted 21 May 2010 - 12:21

................
So get real - maybe Michael will still show us what he is really about and really made of, and then I will be gladly "converted" to the belief you 20+ fierce MS worshippers are exhibiting on these pages.
Meanwhile, accept the fact that there is more than one perspective to look at Michael's exploits...


No you won't. You will find a suitable reason not to. The lack of doubts in your posts is indicative.

#2089 Messi10

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Posted 21 May 2010 - 12:52

By your assumption a driver pushing out fastest lap after fastest lap and retiring at a certain point for blowing its engine, or destroying its tyres and ending up in the gravel with a flat is a better driver than the one cruising home to a solid victory.

Get real.

the stat is not about points or positions in the race, for that we have the points standings where Ms. Is also way behind Nico.
I think what the stat represents is race pace. Button has more points than lewis but lewis has the fastest race pace.

the fastest lap of the race has a lot to do with race conditions. Tire conditions are not the same for every driver on lets say lap 50. The track status also changes depending uppon the amount of rubber laid out, the temperature, humidity , etc.etc. The length of the stints would also have something to do with this. Maybe when the tires and track is at it's best the driver could be held up by traffic while his teammate is in free air.

if single lap is the only indicator we should then look at qualifying where the track status, tyres and fuel levels are the same for every driver.

Edited by Messi10, 21 May 2010 - 12:55.


#2090 RSNS

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Posted 21 May 2010 - 14:39

Well, I for one am quite positive about Mark Webber, and really, he amazes me with what he is achieving this year - who knows, maybe we are witnessing already the WDC 2010. Together with Robert Kubica definitely the man of the year so far, and this after quite a difficult start to the season.

Contrary to Webbo, Schumi is showing pretty badly in the fastest laps statistic, when compared with the other drivers of the Top Four teams. Out of eight drivers Michael is solid eighth. I post this also as a response to SeanValen who claimed that Schumi had the "fastest laps in Spain and Monaco" - I find Michael´s record in this field abysmal so far - here it is, the number of fastest laps each driver posted in each race so far, plus the total number of fastest laps they have achieved.


Posted Image


Interestingly, drivers like Webber, Vettel, Hamilton and Alonso had a least one fastest lap in every race so far. In Schumi´s case, although his China performance was much frowned upon, he at least managed one fastest lap of the field in China. Not so in Bahrain, Malaysia and even Spain...


Very interesting information, Aditya. I agree with the view that these stats are a good indication of race pace. Well done :)


#2091 grunge

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Posted 22 May 2010 - 13:35

On Autosprint of this week there is an article about the Ferrari R&D department...credit to taniaS for the translation.quoting Simone Resta.

"Alonso didn't like the front wing with variable incidence when he was at Renault. But with us he has learned to appreciate it. Our system has an electric motor, others are hydraulic.
He and Massa have different driving styles but they give very similar inputs about the development. Between Kimi and Felipe, in comparison, there were many more differences, such as on the controls and the steering. Raikkonen wanted the same things he had in his McLaren. Alonso instead asked to simplify many commands and procedures. He's very focused on driving,Schumacher was more "engineer" and asked for strange things: in a certain curve he wanted to shift gear with the hand that he usually used to downshifting..."


Andrea stella quote from another article

"Michael loved to think things through, to know what happened, why a particular error committed here or there." Kimi was more intuitive and Alonso is a mixture of these two, "summarizes the technician.

Edited by grunge, 22 May 2010 - 15:00.


#2092 aditya-now

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Posted 22 May 2010 - 14:59

There are only a few arguments used to discredit Schumacher's career and achievements by posters on this bulletin board. Nothing new has come of the arguments over the years, and yet certain serial-haters must be under the impression that if you hit people over the head with such "logic" over and over, eventually somehow you will win the argument through stubborn persistence. FAT CHANCE.

Interestingly, Schumacher's peers rate him as the 2nd best driver of all time, which is certainly not shabby. They may know a thing or three about relative abilities of the various drivers over the last few decades, but even if they are employing educated guesses, their view certainly packs more weight than your average poster's.

So, my question to all you doubters: How do you reconcile the disparity between your view, and those of the much better informed??


Cooper


The rating that Schumacher peers give MS definitely has more credibility than the arguments repeated over and over again by the Schumacher lovers and Schumacher haters alike.
Contrary to these members (Schumacher worshippers, that is) of our BB, however, the racing drivers have not rated Schumacher as the best driver of all time.

Who was the driver Schumacher´s peers rated as # 1 ahead of MS?

Edited by aditya-now, 22 May 2010 - 15:02.


#2093 Szoelloe

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Posted 22 May 2010 - 16:16

Fangio

#2094 George Costanza

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Posted 22 May 2010 - 17:16

The rating that Schumacher peers give MS definitely has more credibility than the arguments repeated over and over again by the Schumacher lovers and Schumacher haters alike.
Contrary to these members (Schumacher worshippers, that is) of our BB, however, the racing drivers have not rated Schumacher as the best driver of all time.

Who was the driver Schumacher´s peers rated as # 1 ahead of MS?


Ayrton Senna.

#2095 grunge

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Posted 22 May 2010 - 17:45

fangio and clark definitely...good case for senna/prost too

#2096 libano

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Posted 22 May 2010 - 17:55

how do you define "the best"? obviously, stats don't seem to count much around here. so what is? honest, non-provocative question btw.

#2097 grunge

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Posted 22 May 2010 - 18:35

the question was who did the ''peers'' rate ahead of schumacher..those 3,4 names are drivers that his peers ''could'' possibly consider better than schumi.

theres no criteria based on which,u can finalistically claim schumi or any other driver was the ''best of all time''..there are definitely people here who rate fangio higher than clark and vice versa.similarly the schumi/senna ,senna/prost feuds will never be ''objectively resolved.

based solely on the peer rating thing,one would remember the autosport poll about the greatest f1 drivers of all time with votings from over 200 f1 drivers.(clark down at 5..what were they thinking?)

Edited by grunge, 22 May 2010 - 18:37.


#2098 aditya-now

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Posted 22 May 2010 - 20:07

based solely on the peer rating thing,one would remember the autosport poll about the greatest f1 drivers of all time with votings from over 200 f1 drivers.(clark down at 5..what were they thinking?)


Thanks for the link, grunge, with all these polls that we are flooded with I had already forgotten that one. Yet I agree, as it is done by over 200 "peer" drivers this one has some validity, although Clark down at 5th place seems a bit far-fetched to me...

Edited by aditya-now, 22 May 2010 - 20:09.


#2099 YellowHelmet

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Posted 23 May 2010 - 09:10

how do you define "the best"? obviously, stats don't seem to count much around here. so what is? honest, non-provocative question btw.

especially beacuse statistics which do not take in account the differences of the material the drivers have, are worth nothing.

material-independent talks in f1 are nonsense!

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#2100 Augurk

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Posted 23 May 2010 - 09:44

One can impossibly name the "best driver" without defining what a "driver" is and what qualities a "driver" must possess.

Now let's get back on topic.