Jump to content


Photo

Michael Schumacher (merged)


  • This topic is locked This topic is locked
20789 replies to this topic

#2351 Fortymark

Fortymark
  • Member

  • 5,796 posts
  • Joined: April 03

Posted 13 June 2010 - 19:00

The problem is that usually other drivers ruin Michael race, like this time. Usually he is loosing, like this time. It was better for me they both to go out in this situation, not "poor" Robert to take 7-th. Because from the start of the season only Michael is on the loosing side.


Are you kidding?! MS usually just sticks in his nose and know the others will back off.
Montoya was imo the first driver post Senna whom wasn´t intimidated by MS.
Good to see that Kubica didn´t back off. When you see the picture of him being on the grass,
ask yourself the question. Did he go there on free will or do you think MS pushed him there?

Advertisement

#2352 grunge

grunge
  • Member

  • 4,333 posts
  • Joined: May 09

Posted 13 June 2010 - 19:02

Or he should keep fighting and the results will come.

The starts are there. The pace is not consistently there (he still has problems with adapting to the tires).The Merc strategy and pace is nowhere.




The first move is debatable. For me it's hard racing.

But the first move had nothing to do to what happened at the chicane. Kubica was too optimistic.

same with the 2nd move..''debatable''....either u give in to all the pushing,lift off,tug in behind or u carry on not giving an inch either...tit for tat

#2353 ivand911

ivand911
  • Member

  • 8,152 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 13 June 2010 - 19:03

He have choice to brake. For you was normal Michael to back off ,but not Kubica? Why? Australia for ruined race. Michael was on the racing line, Kubica not. And Kubica drove in the grass maybe around 50m, it was his choice YES.

Edited by ivand911, 13 June 2010 - 19:07.


#2354 skonks

skonks
  • Member

  • 925 posts
  • Joined: April 06

Posted 13 June 2010 - 19:04

Good to see that Kubica didn´t back off. When you see the picture of him being on the grass,
ask yourself the question. Did he go there on free will or do you think MS pushed him there?


Not debating with you that MS squeezed Kubica. Of course he did, that's hard racing.
However as you can clearly see from the images, Kubica had no intention to even TRY to make the corner :lol:

#2355 Paco

Paco
  • Member

  • 1,215 posts
  • Joined: June 02

Posted 13 June 2010 - 19:06

Every driver on grid knows that passing Michael isn't easy and you had better be 3/4ths of a car length ahead of or he won't yield the corner! He's more then happy to drive through a corner side by side and go wheel to wheel with ya.

And rightfully so.

OWN THE CORNER
MAKE SURE YOU CAN GO SIDE BY SIDE or
GET OUT OF IT


Problem is that soo many junior guys like RK, Massa etc. are use to drivers who get scared going into a corner being passed that they back off... That's what you saw today.. poor driving by people trying to pass Michael just because they were a fraction faster or a fraction into a pass without being at more then a 1/2 car length ahead and on the proper driving line to make the corner.

Edited by Paco, 13 June 2010 - 19:06.


#2356 Diablobb81

Diablobb81
  • Member

  • 3,527 posts
  • Joined: August 09

Posted 13 June 2010 - 19:06

same with the 2nd move..''debatable''....either u give in to all the pushing,lift off,tug in behind or u carry on not giving an inch either...tit for tat



I think both moves are just racing.

But for the first one it's debatable if Schumi did anything wrong.
On the second move the only thing to debate is if Kubica did something wrong (that' what i meant because this is a Schumi thread). I can not see what Schumi did wrong on the second move.

Edited by Diablobb81, 13 June 2010 - 19:09.


#2357 ClubmanGT

ClubmanGT
  • Member

  • 1,247 posts
  • Joined: May 06

Posted 13 June 2010 - 19:07

If pushing people to the edge of the track like what happened with kubica today is illegal, then let me introduce you to a bloke called Lewis...

#2358 grunge

grunge
  • Member

  • 4,333 posts
  • Joined: May 09

Posted 13 June 2010 - 19:10

Not debating with you that MS squeezed Kubica. Of course he did, that's hard racing.
However as you can clearly see from the images, Kubica had no intention to even TRY to make the corner :lol:

thats biased and illogical..if you're comfortable with MS pushing people onto the grass,then u should also accept people not giving in in return..which is exactly what kubica did.we've seen far too many people over the years simply give in to his trademark tactics and move over.

Edited by grunge, 13 June 2010 - 19:10.


#2359 scarletf12002

scarletf12002
  • Member

  • 77 posts
  • Joined: May 10

Posted 13 June 2010 - 19:11

I am so glad Schumi made his come back, but it was really painful to watch him today. I do keep the faith tho and I know he will turn it around!

Advertisement

#2360 Massa_f1

Massa_f1
  • Member

  • 3,344 posts
  • Joined: October 07

Posted 13 June 2010 - 19:13

If pushing people to the edge of the track like what happened with kubica today is illegal, then let me introduce you to a bloke called Lewis...



Its called racing am sure some people on this forum love drivers to give way easy. Thats now what i want to see and i look to MS Lewis and Webber for the fighting value.

#2361 Kop Alonso

Kop Alonso
  • Member

  • 277 posts
  • Joined: November 07

Posted 13 June 2010 - 19:21

Its called racing am sure some people on this forum love drivers to give way easy. Thats now what i want to see and i look to MS Lewis and Webber for the fighting value.


How many times has Lewis actually made contact with an other car wheel to wheel , very rarely .

Schumi was like a rookie today....

:down:

#2362 skonks

skonks
  • Member

  • 925 posts
  • Joined: April 06

Posted 13 June 2010 - 19:21

thats biased and illogical..if you're comfortable with MS pushing people onto the grass,then u should also accept people not giving in in return..which is exactly what kubica did.we've seen far too many people over the years simply give in to his trademark tactics and move over.

I think you've missunderstood me :)
I find it normal that Kubica was racing hard, so that's why I consider it a racing incident.
That's why I have no idea why people start blaming MS (especially for not giving up the position after cutting the chicane) when in fact Kubica didn't even TRY to make the chicane.
Racing incident, case closed :wave:

#2363 Koen

Koen
  • Member

  • 157 posts
  • Joined: August 09

Posted 13 June 2010 - 19:22

I think that once RK got pushed on the grass, he could't brake because with 2 wheels on the grass, he would have instantly spun, propably crashing into MS and causing safety car. And because he was off the racing-line and could't brake hard, he had to go wide into next corner. IIRC there was very similar situation between MS and Liuzzi near the end of the race? With 2 wheels on grass while driving through a corner, even a lift off could lead to complete loss of control.

Edited by Koen, 13 June 2010 - 19:24.


#2364 wj_gibson

wj_gibson
  • Member

  • 2,167 posts
  • Joined: January 05

Posted 13 June 2010 - 19:23

I appreciate that everyone likes to see wheel-to-wheel racing, but there are moments when a driver might choose to concede a position rather than end up with a puncture.

#2365 ivand911

ivand911
  • Member

  • 8,152 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 13 June 2010 - 19:23

Half of the race on softs. Still can believed. The tires that everyone knew they are not good for more than 6-10 laps. Ok if he didn't have more prime tires, they can give him new softs. Or think something else, better saved tires.

#2366 skonks

skonks
  • Member

  • 925 posts
  • Joined: April 06

Posted 13 June 2010 - 19:28

How many times has Lewis actually made contact with an other car wheel to wheel , very rarely .

Schumi was like a rookie today....

:down:

I have no problem with people that don't like hard racing (ie wheel-to wheel or putting people on grass).
My only problem is when double standards are applied.
ex: Hamilton putting Trulli on grass (Monza08) is OK but MS putting Kubica on grass today wasn't.
hmmm :|

By all means, MS was also put on grass several times (like Australia 03 by KR). That was indeed great racing but nobody complained. But had it been the other way around :clap:

#2367 Number62

Number62
  • Member

  • 493 posts
  • Joined: October 09

Posted 13 June 2010 - 19:33

I am so glad Schumi made his come back, but it was really painful to watch him today. I do keep the faith tho and I know he will turn it around!


I would like to ask a genuine question of all those who are keeping the faith and believe that he will 'turn it round'

BTW for context I'm not a fan of MS by any means but my Q is genuine.

Why will he get better?

There are a number of ways you can get better in F1 (assumption: you arrive with something called raw speed)

You can get fitter (but you can't get younger)
You can refine your racecraft (What more can MS learn?)
You can change your attitude (Old dog, new tricks)
You can change the people around you (He's got his wing man already)
You can learn the tracks (He knows them)
You can 'want it more' (Why would you want the 8th more than 1st, 2nd, 3rd.....)
Everyone else can slow down

At some point a sportstar reaches the 'peak' of their abilities and therafter is decline. If MS is not yet at his peak (or back at his peak) which of the above can he do. Nico can most likely do all of them, as can Vettel, Lewis, etc.

Why will he get better?

#2368 skonks

skonks
  • Member

  • 925 posts
  • Joined: April 06

Posted 13 June 2010 - 19:36

I appreciate that everyone likes to see wheel-to-wheel racing, but there are moments when a driver might choose to concede a position rather than end up with a puncture.


there is no ideal world :)
sometimes it works (like Spa95, Button in Barcelona, etc), other times it doesn't (like today)
Racing involves taking risks and you're bound to loose sometimes. :D
Sometimes also the situation forces one to take more or less risks depending on the ultimate goal. You bet that if MS would have been fighting for the WDC (without the desperate need for more points) he would have taken less risks (like he did at the same corner I think in 2006 at the start) :)

#2369 ivand911

ivand911
  • Member

  • 8,152 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 13 June 2010 - 19:38

When his car is getting better and Michael will get better. Every driver is as good, as his car. With car 4-5 best, what you can expect?

#2370 schuey100

schuey100
  • Member

  • 655 posts
  • Joined: September 04

Posted 13 June 2010 - 19:40

How many times has Lewis actually made contact with an other car wheel to wheel , very rarely .

Schumi was like a rookie today....

:down:


No, he was a racing driver. This isn't PS3 where if you touch you lose, this is racing, real life. Has anyone seen racing in different series for the past 50 years? I mean COME ON!!!! This is racing. Jesus. If we end up with F1 where everyone just follows each other, gives 2 feet of room and lets people make moves then I'm off to another series.

#2371 Number62

Number62
  • Member

  • 493 posts
  • Joined: October 09

Posted 13 June 2010 - 19:41

When his car is getting better and Michael will get better. Every driver is as good, as his car. With car 4-5 best, what you can expect?


But if the car gets better and he doesn't he stays the same relative to Rosberg.

#2372 baddog

baddog
  • Member

  • 23,468 posts
  • Joined: June 99

Posted 13 June 2010 - 19:42

I appreciate that everyone likes to see wheel-to-wheel racing, but there are moments when a driver might choose to concede a position rather than end up with a puncture.

I agree. if he had let Kubica go then he would be looking very good indeed today. But then its easy to say that with hindsight I guess. If he had held him off and not got a puncture then he might be looking even better. Hard to say.

#2373 schuey100

schuey100
  • Member

  • 655 posts
  • Joined: September 04

Posted 13 June 2010 - 19:45

I would like to ask a genuine question of all those who are keeping the faith and believe that he will 'turn it round'

BTW for context I'm not a fan of MS by any means but my Q is genuine.

Why will he get better?

There are a number of ways you can get better in F1 (assumption: you arrive with something called raw speed)

You can get fitter (but you can't get younger)
You can refine your racecraft (What more can MS learn?)
You can change your attitude (Old dog, new tricks)
You can change the people around you (He's got his wing man already)
You can learn the tracks (He knows them)
You can 'want it more' (Why would you want the 8th more than 1st, 2nd, 3rd.....)
Everyone else can slow down

At some point a sportstar reaches the 'peak' of their abilities and therafter is decline. If MS is not yet at his peak (or back at his peak) which of the above can he do. Nico can most likely do all of them, as can Vettel, Lewis, etc.

Why will he get better?


One might have asked the same questions many times during his, and other people's careers. Ultimately it comes down to the car and how much confidence a driver has in it. You know that. You give Schumacher or any other driver as great car and make sure he's comfortable in it then you'll see results. Schumacher has actually always been a driver that thrives on a car that works how he wants it to. We see that throughout his career.

#2374 ivand911

ivand911
  • Member

  • 8,152 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 13 June 2010 - 19:49

I don't think Michael really care where he is relative to Nico? As I say he was 3-rd today, and Rosberg 16-th at the same time. I was thinking that he will never see Nico in front of him today. But shits happen. What was the problem with first prime tire, only 12 laps? When 36 on option tire?

Edited by ivand911, 13 June 2010 - 19:51.


#2375 VicR

VicR
  • Member

  • 1,965 posts
  • Joined: April 09

Posted 13 June 2010 - 19:50

Let's say it like this.

I thought Felipe Massa would be the last driver on the face of the earth to be almost pushed off the track by Michael Schumacher. THE LAST DRIVER EVER!

Guess I was wrong about that one as well.

Edited by VicR, 13 June 2010 - 19:51.


#2376 britishtrident

britishtrident
  • Member

  • 1,954 posts
  • Joined: October 07

Posted 13 June 2010 - 19:53

When his car is getting better and Michael will get better. Every driver is as good, as his car. With car 4-5 best, what you can expect?


For him to be at least as good as his teamate.
The Mercedes isn't perfect but it has the the best engine in F1 Rosberg with less than a tenth of multi WDC Schumcher's experience seems to get the best out of the car and dosen't use stock racing (ie UK stock car racing) tactics or cut chicanes. It is time Norbert & Ross presented Schumacher with a Gold Watch and signed Chandok or Buemi

#2377 ivand911

ivand911
  • Member

  • 8,152 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 13 June 2010 - 19:53

I think Massa will do the same to Michael, don't worry. They a paid drivers after all. No friends on the track,it is normal. :)

#2378 britishtrident

britishtrident
  • Member

  • 1,954 posts
  • Joined: October 07

Posted 13 June 2010 - 19:54

Let's say it like this.

I thought Felipe Massa would be the last driver on the face of the earth to be almost pushed off the track by Michael Schumacher. THE LAST DRIVER EVER!

Guess I was wrong about that one as well.


Lets face it is time they both retired.

#2379 baddog

baddog
  • Member

  • 23,468 posts
  • Joined: June 99

Posted 13 June 2010 - 19:55

Why will he get better?

Simple answer. Tyres. He needs to learn how to get the most from the current tyres without using them up excessively. He has frankly overcome the return jitters as we see by the confidence he now has to go wheel to wheel with faster cars and his performance when he does get them working.

His starts/initial first corners have recently been the best of anyone on the grid, and when everything is working he is in fact VERY fast. But he keeps getting in a setup mess, especially when the tyres are being unpredictable.

The current tyres can be unpredicable, as we see all over the place, but other teams and drivers are on top of it, so its not an excuse, its HIS issue to resolve. Sure it would help if the team were more on top of that too, but his teammate is less inconsistent in this area so its up to him to overcome it.


Advertisement

#2380 Number62

Number62
  • Member

  • 493 posts
  • Joined: October 09

Posted 13 June 2010 - 19:56

One might have asked the same questions many times during his, and other people's careers. Ultimately it comes down to the car and how much confidence a driver has in it. You know that. You give Schumacher or any other driver as great car and make sure he's comfortable in it then you'll see results. Schumacher has actually always been a driver that thrives on a car that works how he wants it to. We see that throughout his career.


Yes. And I'm asking it now. What can HE do now to get better, at this stage in his career. Not the car but him. Otherwise he stays where he is in the scheme of things.

Every driver thrives on a car that 'works how he wants it to' by definition

#2381 ivand911

ivand911
  • Member

  • 8,152 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 13 June 2010 - 19:56

Man , you will retire all of them today. Please don't do it.

#2382 F1EC

F1EC
  • Member

  • 864 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 13 June 2010 - 19:56

You can change your attitude (Old dog, new tricks)


This, for me, is the reason why MS will not improve. He's a dirty racer, and he's relied too much in the past on intimidating other drivers in the hope they'll keep clear of him in the future, rather than on focusing on his own skills. Sadly, Vettel seems to be going down the same route.

I think (or, let's say, I sincerely hope) that it's not going to work for MS any more. The younger drivers just don't seem to be that impressed or intimidated by him, and a lot of the guest judges know him from their own racing days so I doubt they're going to let him get away with too many of his old tricks. But I don't think he can change .. it just seems to be too ingrained in him. Maybe Vettel has time to change. I hope so for his sake, because I don't think that deep down you can really feel any joy in winning through intimidation and dirty tricks.

Edited by F1EC, 13 June 2010 - 19:56.


#2383 britishtrident

britishtrident
  • Member

  • 1,954 posts
  • Joined: October 07

Posted 13 June 2010 - 19:57

I think Massa will do the same to Michael, don't worry. They a paid drivers after all. No friends on the track,it is normal. :)



Only "normal" in banger racing.


#2384 VicR

VicR
  • Member

  • 1,965 posts
  • Joined: April 09

Posted 13 June 2010 - 19:57

I think Massa will do the same to Michael, don't worry. They a paid drivers after all. No friends on the track,it is normal. :)


So will Michael now quit calling Felipe his "brother" and vice versa?

#2385 Diablobb81

Diablobb81
  • Member

  • 3,527 posts
  • Joined: August 09

Posted 13 June 2010 - 19:59

Only "normal" in banger racing.


Which is F1.

How can people forget that last race the top guys from the top two teams touched when overtaking.



#2386 Number62

Number62
  • Member

  • 493 posts
  • Joined: October 09

Posted 13 June 2010 - 20:02

I don't think Michael really care where he is relative to Nico? As I say he was 3-rd today, and Rosberg 16-th at the same time. I was thinking that he will never see Nico in front of him today. But shits happen. What was the problem with first prime tire, only 12 laps? When 36 on option tire?


I bet he cares about that more than anything else in the current phase of his F1 career.

Alguersuari was leading at some point. 3rd at some point is meaningless. The race is over 70 laps. Rosberg was ahead at the green lights and at the chequered flag.

#2387 Ellios

Ellios
  • Member

  • 1,157 posts
  • Joined: March 09

Posted 13 June 2010 - 20:03

I mentioned in another thread, this race weekend is a defining moment for Michael Schumacher. Failure to get into last 10 for qualifying and reduced to banging wheels throughout the race with people trying to pass him.

I don't want to see a seven times world champion having to do this for whatever reasons - tires, car etc...


terrible race weekend and one he will want to forget as soon as possible - but it maybe one in which he looks back on and thinks about more deeply

#2388 black magic

black magic
  • Member

  • 3,861 posts
  • Joined: June 00

Posted 13 June 2010 - 20:05

vs kubica was marginal.

against massa he defended his line once then moved wide for turn. massa was never in front or alongside. schumacher made one move. no incident

just cause brundle cant stand schumacher and reads it consistantly that way shouldnt remove the evidence for ourselves. note it was massa's front wing that he lost. not sideboards etc etc.

#2389 Dragonfly

Dragonfly
  • Member

  • 4,496 posts
  • Joined: July 04

Posted 13 June 2010 - 20:06

For him to be at least as good as his teamate.
The Mercedes isn't perfect but it has the the best engine in F1 Rosberg with less than a tenth of multi WDC Schumcher's experience seems to get the best out of the car and dosen't use stock racing (ie UK stock car racing) tactics or cut chicanes. It is time Norbert & Ross presented Schumacher with a Gold Watch and signed Chandok or Buemi

It only seems so.
For Rosberg, who ain't got a single victory, anonymously collecting points may be a great achievement.
For Schumacher it is not.

#2390 ivand911

ivand911
  • Member

  • 8,152 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 13 June 2010 - 20:08

Yes, there is a difference in driving style between Nico and Michael. Michael is tough and Nico is soft. For now soft is better. Michael is getting into troubles more often and losing points. If because of this for you Nico is better driver it is your opinion. For me Michael is more exciting and better driver. Brundle who?

Edited by ivand911, 13 June 2010 - 20:10.


#2391 undersquare

undersquare
  • Member

  • 18,929 posts
  • Joined: November 07

Posted 13 June 2010 - 20:10

Today was the sort of day Michael's fans must have feared. Slow and unsporting. Even accused of brake testing by Ferrari.

#2392 ivand911

ivand911
  • Member

  • 8,152 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 13 June 2010 - 20:13

It is opposite actually. Yes ,he was slow with soft tires after 36 laps. But we can't compare him with anyone, because there were none driving this tires 36 laps.

#2393 Diablobb81

Diablobb81
  • Member

  • 3,527 posts
  • Joined: August 09

Posted 13 June 2010 - 20:17

Today was the sort of day Michael's fans must have feared. Slow and unsporting. Even accused of brake testing by Ferrari.


Actually it was a great start, good pace and tough fighting.

Edited by Diablobb81, 13 June 2010 - 20:17.


#2394 eoin

eoin
  • Member

  • 5,010 posts
  • Joined: April 01

Posted 13 June 2010 - 20:18

Today was the sort of day Michael's fans must have feared. Slow and unsporting. Even accused of brake testing by Ferrari.


Well I feared that last year was a once off and that the Brackley team would go back to been the rubbish team that they were for the last 10 years and that fear has been realised.

#2395 skonks

skonks
  • Member

  • 925 posts
  • Joined: April 06

Posted 13 June 2010 - 20:25

Today was the sort of day Michael's fans must have feared. Slow and unsporting. Even accused of brake testing by Ferrari.


On the contrary:
* good pace (in the first stint). You can ignore after the incident with Kubica as he was in traffic and than everything blew up with that horribe soft tire strategy
* great start
* tought driving (remember all the nonsense with Schumacher will not have the guts to go wheel to wheel :lol: )


As for Ferrari. The just got the Schumacher medicine. You know, the one that MS provided for 10 years to Ferrari's opponents :D

#2396 ivand911

ivand911
  • Member

  • 8,152 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 13 June 2010 - 20:34

http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/84480
Brawn rues Schumacher's tyre strategy

#2397 Rocket73

Rocket73
  • Member

  • 1,479 posts
  • Joined: June 10

Posted 13 June 2010 - 20:40

Brundle who?


yeah right whatever mate, only the most respected pundit there is who has geniune experience of formula one including team mate of ms. he knows more than all the posters on here put together..

yeah he's not infallible - ms v mass was a non incident - but that's just human nature. schumacher was disgraceful and just plain clumsy today and was owned all weekend by rosberg.

I mean how many times did he cut the chicane - the man is just a cheat. always was, always will be....

yet till the end of their days the ms fans will ignore ALL sense and reason just to maintain the illusion about the german...this usually involves terse, 'clever' replies that completely obliterate anyone one dares to question the 'schumi'.

problem is that more and more people are realising the truth and that includes ms fans...the myth is dying...

#2398 Cheap Wine Alesi

Cheap Wine Alesi
  • Member

  • 2,723 posts
  • Joined: December 04

Posted 13 June 2010 - 20:48

Yes, there is a difference in driving style between Nico and Michael. Michael is tough and Nico is soft. For now soft is better. Michael is getting into troubles more often and losing points. If because of this for you Nico is better driver it is your opinion. For me Michael is more exciting and better driver. Brundle who?

Yeah, Schumacher is getting beaten and destroyed by his teammate and yet he is the better driver. Brilliant logic.

#2399 Buttoneer

Buttoneer
  • RC Forum Admin

  • 16,751 posts
  • Joined: May 04

Posted 13 June 2010 - 20:52

A reminder of what this thread is about;

Aim of this thread is to discuss issues related to Michael Schumacher. After Bahrain voices were heard about several weaknesses in his current cornering technique. It is my hope we can continue in that spirit, and check on him through the season.

I wish to welcome all, friends and also those ready for conversion as well.;)


If posters cannot discuss the topic in a mature manner, or do so without trolling or insulting others, I suggest they avoid this thread.

Advertisement

#2400 George Costanza

George Costanza
  • Member

  • 2,378 posts
  • Joined: July 08

Posted 13 June 2010 - 20:55

When his car is getting better and Michael will get better. Every driver is as good, as his car. With car 4-5 best, what you can expect?



Part of the problem is that some people still have outrageous expectations for Schu in a "bad" car, (I.E Ferrari, 1996 and 1997) But that was prime vintage Schu...

Whereas now, Schu isn't ideally at that old standard at all.


Edited by George Costanza, 13 June 2010 - 20:56.