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#2401 ivand911

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Posted 13 June 2010 - 20:57

If statistics(points) mean which driver is better, I can give you same statistics about Michael? :wave: Cheap as usual.
About incident with Kubica, this is what he(Kubica) say:"I had a close battle with Michael after my first stop, and then with Sutil before my second one. " That's it. And Kubica get reprimand this race(incident with Sutil).
Opinion from Renault thread:
"If MS did not run sooo wide to avoid contact, RK's race would end up there

the situation in Sutil is embarrasing at least, Sutil probably braked early but the move from Kubica was result of him staying so close where he could have easily left some space... it's a miracle that they did not crash, again.. good awerness from Sutil.. that saved it

Robert owes a lot to both German drivers that he did not end his race in both incidents.

Most chaotic drive from Kubica in his F1 career. "

But why not to blame Michael for everything????

Edited by ivand911, 13 June 2010 - 21:02.


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#2402 Cheap Wine Alesi

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Posted 13 June 2010 - 21:05

If statistics(points) mean which driver is better, I can give you same statistics about Michael? :wave: Cheap as usual.

What do the stats from when MS had the best car by far have to do with his driving level today? All his previous achievements are irrelevant, what counts is what happening this year and MS is quite frankly amusing me quite a lot this year.

In any case, who mentioned points? Rosberg has been the clearly faster driver in most races, despite what points say.

#2403 ClubmanGT

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Posted 13 June 2010 - 21:08

yeah right whatever mate, only the most respected pundit there is who has geniune experience of formula one including team mate of ms. he knows more than all the posters on here put together..

yeah he's not infallible - ms v mass was a non incident - but that's just human nature. schumacher was disgraceful and just plain clumsy today and was owned all weekend by rosberg.

I mean how many times did he cut the chicane - the man is just a cheat. always was, always will be....

yet till the end of their days the ms fans will ignore ALL sense and reason just to maintain the illusion about the german...this usually involves terse, 'clever' replies that completely obliterate anyone one dares to question the 'schumi'.

problem is that more and more people are realising the truth and that includes ms fans...the myth is dying...


Yes, owned by Rosberg, especially at the start. Totally. Brundle has his own opinions, but the truth is today Schumacher raced just as hard as Hamilton did in his first seasons. He gave no quarters and clearly struggled with tyres, as did Vettel even though the RBR is supposedly better with tyres than any other car. If he wasn't prepared to call Hamilton out for running people out wide and forcing them to back down (even after passing them in far superior cars which is just plain brattish) then Brundle has no place to comment on how Schumacher drove today. Rosberg hasn't really been raced at any stage this year has either been on his own or at the back of a train. Schumacher has done more wheel-to-wheel racing than most other drivers on the grid. He's in what is obviously an unkind and difficult car (which is just as likely to be a result of his driving style, tyres and the fact it's just not as fast in corners as the other top five teams) and is still pulling out consistent results, plus being mindful enough to take to the grass when he needs to in order to save his race when someone else goes gun-ho up the inside. He'll get there.

#2404 Kenaltgr

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Posted 13 June 2010 - 21:08

MS looked in the RTL interview a little like an infamous Austrian/German from 70 years ago with his cap...
Hardened face, his utterings were bordering on the imbecile - that he did everything right, just had bad luck with the tyres etc.

Very well rehearsed PR...

The stone-faced look he has also trained in other situations over the years.


I noticed his arms were shaking in the interview, that was very strange, I have never seen a driver like that when being interviewed.

#2405 Cheap Wine Alesi

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Posted 13 June 2010 - 21:10

I noticed his arms were shaking in the interview, that was very strange, I have never seen a driver like that when being interviewed.

Does anyone have a video for that

#2406 wrcva

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Posted 13 June 2010 - 21:19

I bet he cares about that more than anything else in the current phase of his F1 career.


:up:

yes his "revised" target must be to match Rosberg - a bit sad. After that they (MS/Brawn) can worry about that +57.3 secs to the top.

Forget about other cars/teams, there is no excuse (including tires) for him to not to consistently match/beat Rosberg...period!

... it is getting painful to watch him chip away on his legacy like this.

I think he needs to re-invoke that neck injury thing, and Haug needs to ring Kimi or talk to Robert...for 2011.



#2407 ClubmanGT

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Posted 13 June 2010 - 21:22

:up:

yes his "revised" target must be to match Rosberg - a bit sad. After that they (MS/Brawn) can worry about that +57.3 secs to the top.


It'd be wrong for him to worry just about beating Rosberg. Teams fall apart when they concentrate on beating each other - look at McLaren. You're better off having two drivers who want to be champion working towards the front than working just to get ahead of each other.

#2408 iakhtar

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Posted 13 June 2010 - 21:28

yeah right whatever mate, only the most respected pundit there is who has geniune experience of formula one including team mate of ms. he knows more than all the posters on here put together..

yeah he's not infallible - ms v mass was a non incident - but that's just human nature. schumacher was disgraceful and just plain clumsy today and was owned all weekend by rosberg.

I mean how many times did he cut the chicane - the man is just a cheat. always was, always will be....

yet till the end of their days the ms fans will ignore ALL sense and reason just to maintain the illusion about the german...this usually involves terse, 'clever' replies that completely obliterate anyone one dares to question the 'schumi'.

problem is that more and more people are realising the truth and that includes ms fans...the myth is dying...


I don't like posting too much here but you accuse MS fans of ignoring all sense and reason right after writing "I mean how many times did he cut the chicane - the man is just a cheat. always was, always will be...." surely sense and reasoning tells you that cutting the chicane is counter productive and was probably caused by lack of grip/shod tyres. Also, this being an MS thread, I would think you would have more 'sense' than baiting the fans and generally making this thread even worse than it actually is.

MS had a poor race, a shocker even, it isn't the first and probably wont be the last. Happens to all the drivers sometime. There is no myth or hidden truth that is suddenly being revealed and i'm not short sighted enough to judge his entire career on his comeback drive, that's just idiotic.

In my opinion, MS is in a no win situation (literally), car isn't quick enough and together with bad luck and a loss of form/practice coming back was a brave decision, it's abit sad to see certain people take such glee (even the bbc) kicking a man whilst he is down, rather unsporting which ironically many such people like to point out about MS.

Double standards aside, was a really enjoyable race, really looking forward to the next one (will probably be abit dull though in comparison).

#2409 black magic

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Posted 13 June 2010 - 22:14

fact is that from 13th he was up into 3rd briefly and running on the leaders pace.

the tyre strategy was plain mad and I too thought his performance was weak until realised he was on softs for 30 laps.

watching him take places at the start was impressive as lacked nothing in terms of instinct, and very decisive.

interesting that used to be a criticism oh him at his peak that others could get passed to threads boasting of that achievement. what we see is the difference in aggression between someone trying to win a championship and someone with little to lose

I tire of brundles constant criticism. fact is he has never been a schumacher fan but at times it gets the better of him especially his comments post the incident with massa.

as for cutting the chicane while being chased, he is right that it does confer some advantage but that has been the rule for yrs and schumacher has been on the receiving end before as well. when your tyres are shot as his were then pulling in from 314 mph is easy to get wrong - as brundle well knows.

as for being owned by rosberg well whatever. seemed when schumachers tyres were working he had pretty good pace today. nico did a good job second half but then he was on the optimum tyre

#2410 One

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Posted 13 June 2010 - 22:22

Schumacher had causes today and this week.
but,... I do feel that his performance is not getting up.
He was lapped and way off the pace against his team mate. Pity as he was showing some up turning form the last race.
It is becoming harder to et back on speed.

#2411 Sakae

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Posted 13 June 2010 - 22:42

It'd be wrong for him to worry just about beating Rosberg. Teams fall apart when they concentrate on beating each other - look at McLaren. You're better off having two drivers who want to be champion working towards the front than working just to get ahead of each other.

I agree with you about this. My trust in this man is higher up than to think that he would lower himself to such amateruish targets as matching his team mate. That might be perhaps Nico's goal, but not vice versa. Michael's target is to bring a car to do what he expects; immediately, or even sooner, but not with delayed reaction. His next target is to execute the drive around track in shortest possible time. He couldn't care less about individuals like Hamilton, Button, or Alonso.

#2412 FW09

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Posted 13 June 2010 - 22:48

So Schumi was briefly 3rd after everybody else pitted. So what?

Heck, Buemi was leading the race and Kovalainen was 6th with his Lotus tractor. Doesn't mean much.


#2413 Juan Kerr

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Posted 13 June 2010 - 22:50

Today's race could've been soemthing quite different for Michael, his start was fantastic, it was very tenacious, he was superb off the line he flashed outside Rosberg and then deep into turn 2 right up against the kerb and popped out in 8th then chased down the leaders very swiftly including overtaking Sutil.
Michael was upto 3rd in no time from 13th ! The move on Kubica was a racing incident where you can't blame him from trying to resist, afterall he was ahead of Robert all the way into the corner, he was only trying to make sure Kubica didn't breeze past him and start a barrage of new against old comments and how Kubica just batted off the former champ straight back to his era !
The Kubica inciednt caused Michael a massive strategy adjustment which didn't work at all but otherwise a very high finish was on the cards today, challenging Webber for 5th most likely.
That's racing and Schumacher is definitely on it and head for some great results this year and even better one's next year.

#2414 Buttoneer

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Posted 13 June 2010 - 23:03

Once again;

This thread is not for trolling it is for mature debate. If you cannot manage it, please do not post.

#2415 as65p

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Posted 13 June 2010 - 23:18

My trust in this man is higher up than to think that he would lower himself to such amateruish targets as matching his team mate.


:up: Brilliant! :drunk:

#2416 Katsumi

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Posted 13 June 2010 - 23:27

If you stand for something, stand for it in good times and in bad times. Schumacher was good enough to deliver titles in early 2000, and now he is having a bad year he isnt good enough.

Al this disrespectful nonsense about a man who broke about every records out there. All Schumacher does is racing, the thing he loves so much and he is just giving the boys a hard time in a underperforming car, enjoy his presence before he is gone for good, but then i guess most posters who burn him down right now will be crying.

#2417 Katsumi

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Posted 13 June 2010 - 23:31

Teams fall apart when they concentrate on beating each other - look at McLaren.


Huuuuuuuu??? I assume you mean RBR, or ...

#2418 Muz Bee

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Posted 13 June 2010 - 23:36

If you stand for something, stand for it in good times and in bad times. Schumacher was good enough to deliver titles in early 2000, and now he is having a bad year he isnt good enough.

Al this disrespectful nonsense about a man who broke about every records out there. All Schumacher does is racing, the thing he loves so much and he is just giving the boys a hard time in a underperforming car, enjoy his presence before he is gone for good, but then i guess most w@nkers who burn him down right now will be crying.


But you need to see that this is the risk all top sports champions face if they make a comeback after a sizable break from the sport. Then to not take into account that Michael had a special team around him at Ferrari where he won 5 of his titles is to ignore a salient point. Add to that Michael winning his last few titles in dominant cars and was well beaten by Alonso in his last two years, and really the chickens have come home. He isn't at his best level and he has a teammate who is no slug. Rosberg will be growing from the experience, Schumie will be getting deflated level of confidence. Confidence is a big factor in winning. It really is looking like game over for Michael. Rosberg shows how you get an underwhelming car through to the best possible position at the finish, the Mercedes has poor straightline speed and is not competitive with RedBulls, McLarens and Ferraris in present form. Sometimes excellent races are cloaked in anonymity like Nico's. At least he didn't make a fool of himself driving people off the road for 10th place.


#2419 Mc_Silver

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Posted 13 June 2010 - 23:42

He is losing his all reputation that he gained before. He should not have come back to F1.

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#2420 MikeTekRacing

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Posted 13 June 2010 - 23:43

He is losing his all reputation that he gained before. He should not have come back to F1.

clearly you didn;t give a damn about him before and you don;t give now.

nothing new under the sun

#2421 Seanspeed

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Posted 13 June 2010 - 23:45

Well I was warming to Schumacher a bit, but I think today proved that he's just as dirty as he was before, just without the immense talent that he used to have.

If he can quit the dirty antics, I'll be happy to have him on the field, no matter how much I dislike him as a sportsman, but at this rate, I'm just eager for him to retire again.

Buemi overtaking him was one of the highlights of the race for me!

Edited by Seanspeed, 13 June 2010 - 23:45.


#2422 MikeTekRacing

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Posted 13 June 2010 - 23:47

then surely you are expecting hamilton to retire as well?

#2423 Seanspeed

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Posted 13 June 2010 - 23:50

then surely you are expecting hamilton to retire as well?

I dont like Lewis, either, but at least his on-track etiquette is pretty good.

#2424 Kenaltgr

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Posted 13 June 2010 - 23:52

then surely you are expecting hamilton to retire as well?



Even Hamilton is clean compared to Schumacher.

#2425 Mc_Silver

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Posted 13 June 2010 - 23:53

I dont like Lewis, either, but at least his on-track etiquette is pretty good.


you are right, today schumi played some dirty tricks while he was trying to defend his position. There is no need to do such things cuz sooner or later he knew they will overtake him :down:

Edited by Mc_Silver, 13 June 2010 - 23:53.


#2426 MikeTekRacing

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Posted 13 June 2010 - 23:55

I dont like Lewis, either, but at least his on-track etiquette is pretty good.

you;re joking right?

@kenaltgr: I reserve my right to discard your opinions on this

#2427 Muz Bee

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Posted 14 June 2010 - 00:05

I realise this is a MS thread and should as such be tempered towards respect. He WAS 7-time World Champion and it is sad to see someone of that legendary stature resort to the choppy stuff that blighted parts of his previous career. Until today I thought we were seeing a more mellow Michael. We certainly can see he still has the fire burning but I agree with other here that Lewis's level of ruthlessness doesn't reach the callousness of Michael at his worst. Today wasn't even MS at his worst (look up Jacques Villeneuve at Jerez and Monaco, Rascasse, Qualifying) so I think with the liberal rule interpretation of 2010 (which has IMHO gone too far the other direction) we will see some angry incidents coming up.

I think Brundle displayed an overly critical assessment of Michael at times today on his BBC commentary but how many "under investigation"s can a driver get in one race without questioning his rough tactics?

#2428 baddog

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Posted 14 June 2010 - 00:06

So Schumi was briefly 3rd after everybody else pitted. So what?

Michael was in legitimate positions. He was ahead of Kubica on merit and where did HE end up?

#2429 VicR

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Posted 14 June 2010 - 00:15

Michael ---> wroom, wroom...breaking...looking in mirrors, too late [#7 Felipe Massa]..."brother"..."brother?"..."no brother!"...syntax error...no compute...CTRL+ALT+DELETE...weaving...put following car on grass, damage frontwing...operation: successful...continue. Flicker...flicker...low on battery...emergency system ON.

Felipe fought hard for those points...he couldn't even give him that..

Edited by VicR, 14 June 2010 - 00:18.


#2430 Kenaltgr

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Posted 14 June 2010 - 00:17

you;re joking right?

@kenaltgr: I reserve my right to discard your opinions on this



Barging people off, jumping chicanes ... just like the old days!


#2431 Mc_Silver

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Posted 14 June 2010 - 00:18

Michael ---> wroom, wroom...breaking...looking in mirrors, too late [#7 Felipe Massa]..."brother"..."brother?"..."no brother!"...syntax error...no compute...CTRL+ALT+DELETE...weaving...put following car on grass, damage frontwing...operation: successful...continue. Flicker...flicker...low on battery...emergency system ON.

Felipe fought hard for those points...he couldn't even give him that..


:rotfl: :rotfl:


#2432 baddog

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Posted 14 June 2010 - 00:20

Felipe fought hard for those points...he couldn't even give him that..

A driver who would do favours for someone in a different coloured car on track really should retire. Felipe understands this very well I am sure. Even ones teammate is a rival out there, but other drivers are the enemy.

#2433 ausf1webber

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Posted 14 June 2010 - 00:20

The glee with which Brundle and company have for knocking MS is obvious even to people like me who have never followed MS. Many who post here seem to have the idea that other drivers should give way to their favourite driver otherwise they are rough untalented etc drivers except when your LH. Another pitlane wheel banging incident today. Jealosy is showing out in bucket loads when it comes to knocking MS :down:

#2434 Katsumi

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Posted 14 June 2010 - 00:28

you;re joking right?

@kenaltgr: I reserve my right to discard your opinions on this


Joking about what?

#2435 Seanspeed

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Posted 14 June 2010 - 00:38

The glee with which Brundle and company have for knocking MS is obvious even to people like me who have never followed MS. Many who post here seem to have the idea that other drivers should give way to their favourite driver otherwise they are rough untalented etc drivers except when your LH. Another pitlane wheel banging incident today. Jealosy is showing out in bucket loads when it comes to knocking MS :down:

Jealousy has nothing to do with it. I'm a Ferrari fan, and I could never warm to Schumi, even if I could appreciate his immense driving and what he accomplished for my team.

The problem with me is that I know what its like driving with people like Schumi. I know its not quite the same, but when playing online racing games, there's certain people who are good, but resort to some nasty driving etiquette because they dont want to get passed. In a game, its annoying. In real-life, it must be absolutely infuriating(for the other drivers). I feel for the drivers that have to put up with Schumi and his dirty tactics. Stuff like that would be absolutely unforgiveable for somebody of lesser talent. And thats where he needs to watch it. He's not good enough to be forgiven for that kind of thing anymore. He looks like an overenthusiastic rookie, not a cool headed 7 time champion.

#2436 eriknaa

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Posted 14 June 2010 - 00:40

A Great race today, i really enjoyed it. Michael did an amazing start up to 8th, and up to 3rd when Hamilton and co went into the pits.
He had a great fighting spirit yet again wish i love to see :-D
But when will the luck will be with Michael who knows??
He had a great fight with Robert and was very unluky to get a slow puncture after that wish meant he had 2 pit stops in 2 laps.
And the team then decided to go the race out with the soft tyres, wish meant over 30 laps, wish where clarly wrong.
He did a good effort in trying to get the points. but was 11th in the end.
Just have to look forward and improve, but still i am very pleased with Michaels performance but 5th or 6th should be the result michael should have gotten today....

#2437 Muz Bee

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Posted 14 June 2010 - 01:07

If Michael and Felipe had been battling for victory today when they collided the guys from the Scuderia would have known what it felt like for their competitors when Michael drove for them. Another broken wing was all the damage besides a point or two lost after a hard and frustrating drive.

I think there are at least a handful of newer generation drivers who will give no quarter when it comes to Michael and today's intimidating tactics will be more likely to draw an equally firm response (as we saw from Kubica). If the message is "you yield or we crash" then I think the youngsters will be quite bloody minded when dealing with the old lion.

#2438 marchi-91

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Posted 14 June 2010 - 02:30

Michael ---> wroom, wroom...breaking...looking in mirrors, too late [#7 Felipe Massa]..."brother"..."brother?"..."no brother!"...syntax error...no compute...CTRL+ALT+DELETE...weaving...put following car on grass, damage frontwing...operation: successful...continue. Flicker...flicker...low on battery...emergency system ON.

Felipe fought hard for those points...he couldn't even give him that..


Felipe was treated like the driver he is. He's never had any bottle and every fight he's ever been in, he's cowered away. You don't remember Germany 08 where Hamilton absolutely destroyed him???? He should have been smart enough to back out.

#2439 skinnyman

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Posted 14 June 2010 - 02:35

Felipe was treated like the driver he is. He's never had any bottle and every fight he's ever been in, he's cowered away. You don't remember Germany 08 where Hamilton absolutely destroyed him???? He should have been smart enough to back out.


Destroyed, wow, McLaren was 1,5s faster at that stage of the race, Felipes brakes were fkd up after SC, just limped to the finish...

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#2440 arknor

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Posted 14 June 2010 - 02:41

Barging people off, jumping chicanes ... just like the old days!

who did he bang off? even christian horner doesnt think it was break testing or any other BS massa clearly didnt get micro managed by his engineer again anyone else would have realised schumachers tyres were battered and that he would need to break far earlier.

he had the racing line going into corner with kubica boo hoo kubica got squeezed onto the grass something most of the top drivers have done atleast once this year.

kubica then left his breaking to late and schumacher had no choice but to cut the corner because it was obvious kubica was never going to turn in and make it.


its not as if schumacher has been racing in the pitlane or turning into his team mate and he hasnt weaved as much as hamilton on a straight.

we all know they got away with it but if it were schumacher the haters would be calling for black flags.

schumacher ended up in 3rd from 13th and he was only 5-7 seconds from the leaders he was in for a good race until the racing incident with kubica

Edited by arknor, 14 June 2010 - 02:42.


#2441 black magic

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Posted 14 June 2010 - 05:43

has any driver actually complained about ms driving in montreal?

kubica didnt, did massa?

#2442 ausf1webber

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Posted 14 June 2010 - 06:16

Massa knocked his own wing off Michael was just setting himself up for the corner entry it seems many failed to notice MS was in front all four wheels in front where was Massa going, I like massa but he made the mistake not MS. As for Kubica the same he dived inside Michael, Michael held his line and there was contact but shock horror MS gets blamed for holding his line and he also was ahead. MS haters just bending every incident to suite the argument, Kubica had a bad race his pit entry looked like desperation which could have had serious results.

#2443 Pampalini

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Posted 14 June 2010 - 06:36

I'm not his fan- still I loved the way he drove in Canada. I loved his determination- it was the Old Schumi! Drivers who "give way" to passing are not racing drivers - they should find another job at public transportation :smoking:

#2444 Diablobb81

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Posted 14 June 2010 - 06:55

And in the chicane incident with Kubica he went wide left to avoid contact with Kubica. If he drove badly he could have just held his line and take Kubica and possibly himself out.

#2445 razno

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Posted 14 June 2010 - 07:03

MS brakes way to early because worn tires. You can change your line 1 time, and then go back to racing line (schumy chop) if opponent car is behind . Massa just didnt predict that he will brake early because tires are done...

Edited by razno, 14 June 2010 - 07:04.


#2446 DanardiF1

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Posted 14 June 2010 - 07:15

I don't think Ross Brawn is giving Michael the best strategic tools, or the right type of car, to do what he wants to do (or to even adapt). Putting MS on those option tyres with a view to going that long was ridiculous, and I think Michael did fantastic just to get to the end with them. Ross knew from China that the Merc does suffer with rear tyre wear and subsequent traction loss, but he still thinks it's a good idea to put Michael on those tyres again? Without Tyre-war car specific tyres, Brawn can't do the same tricks with Michael as he could in the past... you need to just make the most calculated calls to first keep track position, then be in sync with those around you to give yourself a chance of racing them...

I applaud MS for making those tyres last as long as they did in the circumstances, and to be robbed of points so late on because of it is cruel. But I do question whether Ross Brawn should shelve his more outlandish ideas for Michael and just concentrate on getting the best out of a normal strategy... it's working for Rosberg...


#2447 Rocket73

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Posted 14 June 2010 - 07:16

To all those who are questioning the 'ms haters' and wondering why so many people are anti schumacher in a big way:

You know the reason could be and i know this is a big thing for me, is that the old man never admits his wrong doings. STILL he denies that he did anything wrong at rascasse, supposedly this is a new mellow schumacher but he can't just say "yeah sorry that was a bit out of line". The respect towards him would increase a lot. Look at hamilton going in front of the cameras to admit and apologise for liegate. That takes a real man and that is where a lot of my respect for him comes from...

And much more recently Horner admitted that it was a mistake to blame Webber. And straight away you can respect the man again because after turkey it was definitely in question what sort of man he was.

But schumacher when asked about rascasse this year at monaco just gives the response of " I have 7wdc\s and 91 victories so go and stick it!" Sorry but massive fail...And there are sooooo many other instances of this behaviour i just cant respect this guy at all...

Good for rosberg i say because this season is making him. I even hope he gets a victory soon...just as long as JB and LH come 2nd and 3rd that time :up:

#2448 BigWicks

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Posted 14 June 2010 - 07:17

I don't like Schumi at all but he didn't really do that much wrong today, the Kubica incident was stupid but I say stupid because he harmed his own race for no reason, he didn't push Kubica off the track or anything

#2449 ivand911

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Posted 14 June 2010 - 08:40

Looking now to yesterday race, I feel well like Michael fan. He made again the race, they show him more than the leaders. Who really won? He still have what it takes. He made show for his fans and trolls. We are all happy. Investors are also happy, they get a lot of TV time. That is important. Looking forward to the next show.

Edited by ivand911, 14 June 2010 - 08:43.


#2450 LOTI

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Posted 14 June 2010 - 08:53

Cheer up Michael, at least Germany won! :clap: