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#2701 ivand911

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Posted 28 June 2010 - 08:22

Usually you need only one attempt to get Q2, it is not for the first time. And if you not see two MGP drivers having problems in Qualy, because of the car, and also Michael was having brake balance problem. And Koba was 18th and finished in the points. Maybe in the race you didn't see great MGP pit stop decisions?

Edited by ivand911, 28 June 2010 - 08:23.


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#2702 Frans

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Posted 28 June 2010 - 08:26

The whole bunch of you anti-Schumacher's are just despairing. Sure the results haven't come yet but you know things are just on the horizon and that poor luck has been the only spanner in the works. You cannot handle the Schumacher name being back near the top, you thought it was all over when 2006 drew to a close.


That's an amusing comment.

Why beat a dead horse what's down already? ....

Der Kaiser ist Todt.


The King is dead.... Long live the King

#2703 TURU

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Posted 28 June 2010 - 08:27

Schmacher

1)Set the second faster lap of the GP
2)Gained highest no. of places at the start
3)Was well set for a top 6 position, had there been no poor strategy work by MGP
4)Was faster throughout the race compared to his team mate

If this according is a sign of Schumacher getting worse and worse, then you need not be on F1 forums. A psychiatrist probably would be a better option.


1) He had fresh set of tyres when doing this.
2) Agreed. He is a real racer and I'm not questioning this. I just say that he is not as fast as he used to be.
3) Maybe yes, maybe not you can't know.
4) Agreed. You only forgot to mention that Rosberg had to take care of the car for most of the time.

5) When somebody has no logical arguments, then personal attacks begin. Silly.

#2704 arknor

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Posted 28 June 2010 - 08:28

What was the point changing hard tires in lap 11 ,to put softs and to drive on them 46 laps? Please, get Sauber strategist in the team. All fans when see him getting in the box were, WTF? MGP is trying really hard to destroy all Michael races. Michael is experiment mouse for them. They even didn't use softs in Q2, but was ready to try them for 46 laps in the race.

it made no sense at all as during the practice and qualifying sessions the hard tyre matched the soft for pace at some points the hard tyre set faster times so i dont know why they wanted him on softs for the majority of the race.

they must get an understanding of how long the tyres last from the race simulations in practice it doesnt take an armchair genius to realise there was no point in pitting schumacher when they did he missed the boat

#2705 RedBaron

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Posted 28 June 2010 - 08:29

That's an amusing comment.

Why beat a dead horse what's down already? ....

Der Kaiser ist Todt.


The King is dead.... Long live the King



You edited out what I said about flogging a dead horse, and added it to your own post. has it really come to this? What next, I know you are, but what am I? No you are, I know you are but what am I? Blimey.

#2706 ivand911

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Posted 28 June 2010 - 08:29

Michael get to the 3rd with his power, team responsibility was to keep him there. They didn't. They decided stupidly that he need new softs. Why, nobody knows? Why to be easy ,when can be difficult.

2) What fast mean. If you have fast car you are fast, if not you are not fast. Fast compare to what? McLaren, RBR, Ferrari? I would be happy if he can try such car to see how fast is.

Edited by ivand911, 28 June 2010 - 08:34.


#2707 man

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Posted 28 June 2010 - 08:34

Saying his performance was better than where he finished and that it was an improvement (performance wise) on how the weekend looked to be panning out after qualifying, that is everyone declaring him the man of the race? Interesting theory.

The whole bunch of you anti-Schumacher's are just despairing. Sure the results haven't come yet but you know things are just on the horizon and that poor luck has been the only spanner in the works. You cannot handle the Schumacher name being back near the top, you thought it was all over when 2006 drew to a close. If anything you lot are the ones down, bashing back at you is like flogging a dead horse, you've got nothing left and you had very little to begin with.


Hehe. Trying to find positives is one thing but being deluded is something else. Merc and M Schumacher inherited one of the best if not the best package from last season. Despite all the loud noises coming from the camp about improved performance, championship and wins still in sight the reality of the situation is that they are becoming a bit of a laughing stock within the F1 circus. Shitload of mistakes from both team and M Schumacher slipping further and further down the pecking order, serious inability to adapt to tyres and the speed of the new kids on the block - it has simply been woeful. And now even Meaningless aspects such as achieving the second fastest lap of the race is considered a feat. There is nothing wrong in supporting your man but please be a realistic.

#2708 ivand911

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Posted 28 June 2010 - 08:37

W01 was design with Button driving style in mind, very different from Michael and Nico driving styles. But ,Nico adapted better to it. And in the end of the last year Brawn car was 3-4th best car.

#2709 TURU

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Posted 28 June 2010 - 08:37

Michael get to the 3rd with his power, team responsibility was to keep him there. They didn't. They decided stupidly that he need new softs. Why, nobody knows? Why to be easy ,when can be difficult.

2) What fast mean. If you have fast car you are fast, if not you are not fast. Fast compare to what? McLaren, RBR, Ferrari? I would be happy if he can try such car to see how fast is.


Fast compare to his teammate. He used to destroy his teammates, but now is being beaten quite easily by Rosberg who is not regarded as one of the best drivers out there.

Edited by TURU, 28 June 2010 - 08:38.


#2710 eoin

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Posted 28 June 2010 - 08:39

1) He had fresh set of tyres when doing this.
2) Agreed. He is a real racer and I'm not questioning this. I just say that he is not as fast as he used to be.
3) Maybe yes, maybe not you can't know.
4) Agreed. You only forgot to mention that Rosberg had to take care of the car for most of the time.

5) When somebody has no logical arguments, then personal attacks begin. Silly.


1) The tyres were 17-18 laps old. Tyre wear was close to zero for this track so once the 'fresh' rubber(first couple of laps) is used up the tyres stay constant for the reason of the race.

4) Schumacher had the same brake problem from lap 5 onwards but it seems he did a better job of managing it.

#2711 man

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Posted 28 June 2010 - 08:50

Nico adapted better to it.


Ah so you can be realistic after all! Now try to say "MSchumacher has been a flop and Merc have flushed their money down the pooh hole for paying MSchumacher a reputed $20 million.

:-)

#2712 Polle

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Posted 28 June 2010 - 09:06

He's done ok so far. These last two races I'll take as a grain of salt. Canada and Valencia is a big game of "ifs" for Schumacher. From what I could see, his driving is fine except for some naughties in Canada which means nothing has changed since he retired.

Again playing the "if" game, if he hadn't got that puncture in Canada (being his fault) and the horribly unlucky outcome of the pitstops in Valencia, he would be looking at points and even top 6 finishes. At the moment Its just piecing everything back together and he'll be good. At his current pace with the car, he's regular point scorer with maybe a podium here and there which we saw from Turkey and Spain.

#2713 Frans

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Posted 28 June 2010 - 09:08

"Schumacher" the new name for flusing millions down the drain.... :lol:


Great season so far, no?

#2714 rog

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Posted 28 June 2010 - 09:47

1) The tyres were 17-18 laps old. Tyre wear was close to zero for this track so once the 'fresh' rubber(first couple of laps) is used up the tyres stay constant for the reason of the race.

4) Schumacher had the same brake problem from lap 5 onwards but it seems he did a better job of managing it.



1) Tyres from nearly all other drivers were about 50 laps old. New tyres is a big big advantage, much faster. New tyres with a light car end of the race can do much better lap times.

4) Have you a source? I didn't read or heard any statement about brake issues from Schumacher this race, only from Rosberg. Also a brake issue can be different.

#2715 Polle

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Posted 28 June 2010 - 09:55

I believe both drivers had the exact some problem with brakes this race with overheating, unless I missed something. Schumacher was notified on lap 5 while Rosberg some laps later.

#2716 black magic

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Posted 28 June 2010 - 10:04

i assumed the last change to softs was to do some more testing. races was long buggered by then

#2717 rog

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Posted 28 June 2010 - 10:11

i assumed the last change to softs was to do some more testing. races was long buggered by then



Correct, it was a testing according to the team.

#2718 Diablobb81

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Posted 28 June 2010 - 10:24

4) Have you a source? I didn't read or heard any statement about brake issues from Schumacher this race, only from Rosberg. Also a brake issue can be different.


There was a conversation at the start of teh race between Schumi and pit which was shown on TV.

I think he had maybe the same problem in Q1 yesterday. His "car" (if it can be called that) was drifting right.


#2719 arknor

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Posted 28 June 2010 - 10:39

There was a conversation at the start of teh race between Schumi and pit which was shown on TV.

I think he had maybe the same problem in Q1 yesterday. His "car" (if it can be called that) was drifting right.

in qualifying one of his front brakes kept locking on everytime he braked.


in the race he was warned his brakes were getting to hot after only a few laps

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#2720 ivand911

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Posted 28 June 2010 - 10:46

Team give so many funny excuses. They changed his tires to softs, because they believed he can use them 46 laps. But after two laps they put him on hards again? They decided now that hards are better, after only two laps behind SC? It was like looking the movie "Dumb and Dumber". This year MGP easily will win any award for stupid decisions in a race(they lead first places)? For leading and supporting role. :rotfl:

Edited by ivand911, 28 June 2010 - 10:48.


#2721 Hacklerf

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Posted 28 June 2010 - 10:53

Brawn has been poor on the wall this year, but the magic between the two is still there, keep faith

#2722 ivand911

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Posted 28 June 2010 - 10:56

If I don't have faith ,I will be not here. :) Still very good race ,only because Michael was there. Same with the season so far. But, so many mistakes is like blowing against the wind.

Edited by ivand911, 28 June 2010 - 10:57.


#2723 aditya-now

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Posted 28 June 2010 - 11:10

Where are all the haters who were out in such force over the last two weeks? It's gone strangely quiet......



Maybe some just don't see the point in endlessly knocking someone already down.

OTOH with his fans invariably declaring him the man of the race no matter what, it can be very tempting at times.



Well, maybe the "haters" are no haters but sensible human beings. Why kick a man who is already lying on the ground?
What to comment on someone who finishes 16th in a GP and his fans go on hailing it as one of the great races of the man?
Then the strange strategy calls: how come someone of Schumacher´s pedigree is not able to have an influence on these strange strategy calls? Or do these strategy calls come from Michael himself? If so, it seems Michael has lost his marbles.

Go no further than Kamui Kobayashi and Peter Sauber to see how it is being done...

#2724 as65p

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Posted 28 June 2010 - 11:19

Sure the results haven't come yet but you know things are just on the horizon and that poor luck has been the only spanner in the works. You cannot handle the Schumacher name being back near the top, you thought it was all over when 2006 drew to a close. If anything you lot are the ones down, bashing back at you is like flogging a dead horse, you've got nothing left and you had very little to begin with.


You really believe all that? Poor luck, back near the top and all? :lol:

There are things on the horizon, indeed. Very different things than the ones you're so sure to know.

As I said, it can be very difficult to resist rubbing it in with posts like that one from you.

#2725 RedBaron

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Posted 28 June 2010 - 12:48

You really believe all that? Poor luck, back near the top and all? :lol:

There are things on the horizon, indeed. Very different things than the ones you're so sure to know.

As I said, it can be very difficult to resist rubbing it in with posts like that one from you.



Past 2 races bad luck and errors from his team has caused Schumacher to drop from positions near the top. He made a great start in both the last races which allowed him to punch above his weight.

So you can rub it in all like, but you do realise it will only be effective if there's any sense to what you're saying! And I'm guessing judging by the past few posts I've seen from you generally there isn't! :p

#2726 Disgrace

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Posted 28 June 2010 - 12:52

Where are all the haters who were out in such force over the last two weeks? It's gone strangely quiet......


Because frankly, watching Schumacher put in mediocre performances in a mediocre car is not interesting. We could be talking about Liuzzi instead.

#2727 Dragonfly

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Posted 28 June 2010 - 12:57

Team give so many funny excuses. They changed his tires to softs, because they believed he can use them 46 laps. But after two laps they put him on hards again? They decided now that hards are better, after only two laps behind SC? It was like looking the movie "Dumb and Dumber". This year MGP easily will win any award for stupid decisions in a race(they lead first places)? For leading and supporting role. :rotfl:

I think it was an attempt for damage limitation after he found himself further at the back of the grid after the first stop.
Still, if he could do a reasonable number of good laps on the options, as we saw, it's a mystery why they didn't follow Koba's strategy. Maybe it's time to drop the search for peculiar strategies and rely on more ordinary. Not necessarily looking for the maximum theoretical result.

Bar the strange strategy calls, Michel is improving his speed and work with the tyres IMO. There will be results if the car is kept near to the front runners.

#2728 aditya-now

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Posted 28 June 2010 - 13:03

Bar the strange strategy calls, Michel is improving his speed and work with the tyres IMO. There will be results if the car is kept near to the front runners.


That is exactly the question everyone is dodging here in this thread: how can a man of Michael´s pedigree, a seven time WDC no less, not have an influence on tyre strategy?
We have seen Jenson Button winning brilliantly two races earlier this season by making his own strategy calls. How come Michael Schumacher is not capable in doing so as well?
Does Jenson have more experience than Michael? More race intelligence? How did Michael then win 91 Grands Prix?

The team being the same (Brawn GP/Mercedes GP), and having seen Barrichello last year also topsy turvy, like Schumacher this year, I come slowly to the conclusion that Jenson Button´s WDC was very well deserved and that he probably had a much bigger hand in it than most people would want to give Jenson credit for.

Where is the magic wand of Ross Brawn? Where the magic wand of Michael Schumacher? Where the synergistic genius the two were demonstrating for years on end?


#2729 Dragonfly

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Posted 28 June 2010 - 13:11

Where is the magic wand of Ross Brawn? Where the magic wand of Michael Schumacher? Where the synergistic genius the two were demonstrating for years on end?

The problem with his detractors is that they expect magic while completely ignoring sume unknown possibilities regarding the team being now owned by Mercedes and the unknown state of in-team relations.
That's why I say strange and uncharacteristic things happen. And I hope sooner or later we'll know the reasons. Michael alone would not make so many strategic errors in two consecutive races.
The other possibility is that having no real chance for the title, he and Ross are experimenting. Being fourth or fourteenth does not make much difference for a 7 time WDC IMO, if there's no chance to be on top. It might be considered a success by someone, who has never tasted a single victory, but not by Michael.

#2730 TURU

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Posted 28 June 2010 - 13:19

The problem with his detractors is that they expect magic while completely ignoring sume unknown possibilities regarding the team being now owned by Mercedes and the unknown state of in-team relations.
That's why I say strange and uncharacteristic things happen. And I hope sooner or later we'll know the reasons. Michael alone would not make so many strategic errors in two consecutive races.
The other possibility is that having no real chance for the title, he and Ross are experimenting. Being fourth or fourteenth does not make much difference for a 7 time WDC IMO, if there's no chance to be on top. It might be considered a success by someone, who has never tasted a single victory, but not by Michael.


Eh, No. It is like looking for another excuses and explanations for their silly (not to use another word) mistakes. Basically it makes much difference if you are 4th or 14th, even for a 7time WDC, because 4th place means many points for a team and points mean money. There is no explanation for their (both Michael's and the team's) mistakes, there are only silly excuses.

#2731 Diablobb81

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Posted 28 June 2010 - 13:20

That is exactly the question everyone is dodging here in this thread: how can a man of Michael´s pedigree, a seven time WDC no less, not have an influence on tyre strategy?
We have seen Jenson Button winning brilliantly two races earlier this season by making his own strategy calls. How come Michael Schumacher is not capable in doing so as well?


Because if you would bother to think you would realize the difference between the calls Jenson had to make and Michael's.


#2732 Augurk

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Posted 28 June 2010 - 13:20

By the way, what exactly happened on lap 1? If I'm not mistaken he was behind Rosberg when entering T2, having made only one or two places at the start, but he took another 2 in the remainder of the lap. Anyone know how?

#2733 ivand911

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Posted 28 June 2010 - 13:26

Hearing people here it is like only Michael was having bad race. What about Webber(from 2nd to 9th, crash), Ferrari? I think Michael is still learning the tires ,this is why he rely more on the team for decisions. Yes ,Button take one decision(when his tires was gone, very hard decision!!) about pit stop and he is great. Still there was no need of changing Michel's tires(look Koba).

Edited by ivand911, 28 June 2010 - 13:28.


#2734 aditya-now

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Posted 28 June 2010 - 13:36

Because if you would bother to think you would realize the difference between the calls Jenson had to make and Michael's.


Yes, if you would bother to think you would realize that Jenson´s calls were much more difficult in much more unpredictable conditions.
This is why so many are appalled by the strategy calls Michael, Shovlin and Ross are making - they get it wrong in conditions that are perfectly normal and that most others are getting right.

Like Kobayashi and Peter Sauber this weekend.

#2735 jannyg

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Posted 28 June 2010 - 13:49

This year is now a big test session for Schumi i believe. Seeing these long long runs on tires in the last few races makes me believe that Schumi is doing this to experiment the capability of these tires. As we know MS has been struggling with the tires, i think the last few races have given him vital info for this and next season. Dont worry MS defo has a hand in these decisions.

#2736 as65p

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Posted 28 June 2010 - 13:51

Past 2 races bad luck and errors from his team has caused Schumacher to drop from positions near the top. He made a great start in both the last races which allowed him to punch above his weight.


Either that, or: he keeps struggling in qualifying, barely even makes it out of Q1 last saturday, qualifies behind his teammate most of the time, then the past 2 races get's some lucky breaks at the start (mostly overtaking drivers he should have outqualified to begin with) only to throw it all away later with overambitious battles and strange strategy choices.

Sorry, but you asked for it.

Re: the strategy, it's my impression that Brawn keeps making those out-of-sync choices for MS because they usually worked 10 years ago. As evident in this thread, he's not the only one having difficulties to accept that this isn't the MS of 2000 anymore.

#2737 ivand911

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Posted 28 June 2010 - 13:52

Sauber strategy didn't change at all, they leave it like was planed from the start. Question is why they changed Michael strategy which was the same(like Sauber)? Everybody changed their tires in lap 9 , some in lap 10, only stupid ones(MGP) changed tires in lap 11(with red signal)? They didn't have plan to change his tires at this stage, who give this stupid idea? Some one was thinking very slowly for two-three laps. I think the idea was Michael not to stop anymore in the end of the race, that with this SC they can cover one pit stop. We all know the outcome. They needed to stick with the original(safer plan). I think only in Bahrain Michael didn't overtake Nico at the start? And Malaysia also. Not two lucky breaks. :) Maybe four lucky breaks.

Edited by ivand911, 28 June 2010 - 14:00.


#2738 Diablobb81

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Posted 28 June 2010 - 14:00

Yes, if you would bother to think you would realize that Jenson´s calls were much more difficult in much more unpredictable conditions.


Hint :which of the calls had to be made based on info the driver had and which based on the info only the pit had.

#2739 RedBaron

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Posted 28 June 2010 - 14:01

Either that, or: he keeps struggling in qualifying, barely even makes it out of Q1 last saturday, qualifies behind his teammate most of the time, then the past 2 races get's some lucky breaks at the start (mostly overtaking drivers he should have outqualified to begin with) only to throw it all away later with overambitious battles and strange strategy choices.

Sorry, but you asked for it.

Re: the strategy, it's my impression that Brawn keeps making those out-of-sync choices for MS because they usually worked 10 years ago. As evident in this thread, he's not the only one having difficulties to accept that this isn't the MS of 2000 anymore.


You make the weakest points in your reply I've ever seen, then round them up with 'sorry but you asked for it'. Haha!

I spend my time discussing drivers I enjoy watching. It seems there's a whole bunch of people whose sole purpose is to post on drivers they dislike, that really sums up your characters.

Enjoy watching Schumacher rise from the ashes, we sure will!

Re: the strategy, yeh sure thing brainiac the Schumacher of old would have had super human powers that turned red lights at the end of the pits green. Amazing!

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#2740 as65p

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Posted 28 June 2010 - 14:05

You make the weakest points in your reply I've ever seen, then round them up with 'sorry but you asked for it'. Haha!

I spend my time discussing drivers I enjoy watching. It seems there's a whole bunch of people whose sole purpose is to post on drivers they dislike, that really sums up your characters.

Enjoy watching Schumacher rise from the ashes, we sure will!

Re: the strategy, yeh sure thing brainiac the Schumacher of old would have had super human powers that turned red lights at the end of the pits green. Amazing!


Indeed I wonder now why I even bothered. Keep expecting the miracle! :wave:

#2741 Villes Gilleneuve

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Posted 28 June 2010 - 15:12

Enjoy watching Schumacher rise from the ashes, we sure will!


How many races into the season will denial turn into realization?

Edited by Villes Gilleneuve, 28 June 2010 - 18:11.


#2742 Kooper

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Posted 28 June 2010 - 15:25

The problem with his detractors is that they expect magic while completely ignoring sume unknown possibilities regarding the team being now owned by Mercedes and the unknown state of in-team relations.
That's why I say strange and uncharacteristic things happen. And I hope sooner or later we'll know the reasons. Michael alone would not make so many strategic errors in two consecutive races.
The other possibility is that having no real chance for the title, he and Ross are experimenting. Being fourth or fourteenth does not make much difference for a 7 time WDC IMO, if there's no chance to be on top. It might be considered a success by someone, who has never tasted a single victory, but not by Michael.


I would think the WCC money would make that 4th worthwhile... Renault (well Kubica) is coming closer.

#2743 aditya-now

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Posted 28 June 2010 - 16:33

Hint :which of the calls had to be made based on info the driver had and which based on the info only the pit had.


Hint: the pits and the driver are connected via radio. Jenson uses this option to his advantage...


#2744 Diablobb81

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Posted 28 June 2010 - 16:53

Hint: the pits and the driver are connected via radio. Jenson uses this option to his advantage...


When it's him who can make a call.


#2745 aditya-now

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Posted 28 June 2010 - 23:46

In the prestigious "Der Spiegel" magazine, after Germany´s victory in soccer against England:

"Don´t lift off, Schumi is still driving in the back of the field...."

http://www.spiegel.d...ke-56461-3.html

#2746 halifaxf1fan

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Posted 29 June 2010 - 00:46

How many races into the season will denial turn into realization?



When is Ross Brawn going to realize it is not the car but two poor drivers holding the team back??

Edited by halifaxf1fan, 29 June 2010 - 00:47.


#2747 Muz Bee

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Posted 29 June 2010 - 03:16

When is Ross Brawn going to realize it is not the car but two poor drivers holding the team back??

Sorry I didn't realise I had come to a Mercedes fan club thread. Yes I can see it now, the silver cars are RedBull beaters in spite of their appalling speed trap times and their inability to correctly utilise their tyres. Great car, held back by two numpties. Good work. :wave:


#2748 hansmann

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Posted 29 June 2010 - 06:09

That is exactly the question everyone is dodging here in this thread: how can a man of Michael´s pedigree, a seven time WDC no less, not have an influence on tyre strategy?


Fair point, I have to admit.
It sometimes seems like Michael still hasn't come to terms with this year's tyres; or that the Brawn strategy is somewhat desperate and confused.

#2749 arknor

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Posted 29 June 2010 - 06:19

Fair point, I have to admit.
It sometimes seems like Michael still hasn't come to terms with this year's tyres; or that the Brawn strategy is somewhat desperate and confused.

hes probably used to ross brawn beeing a magician still which he doesnt seem to be anymore.

alot of the teams have been getting it wrong thiws season though hopefully all the nonsensor of jumping into the pits everytime theres a SC will end soon

#2750 anachronox

anachronox
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  • Joined: February 08

Posted 29 June 2010 - 06:51

I have lot of confidence in this Michael-Brawn combo. I am sure Michael is working hard on his 2011 car and building a strong base with the 2010 car.

He is way too unlucky this season with all those wierd things happening around F1.