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#3151 man

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Posted 13 July 2010 - 06:41

Food for thought... Few would disagree that 2010 is probably the first time since 1991 where M Schumacher does not have the entire team he competes for moulded around him at the expense of the other driver. It is probably the first time where the car he is driving was not customised for him at the expense if the other driver. And it is probably the first time where he hasn't had the lions share of the testing at the expense of the driver. M Schumacher in his own words is driving as well as he has ever done and has the same motivation he has ever done. So is this a case of M Schumacher finally being found out for what he really is? He has been comprehensively thrashed by a driver in the form of Rosberg who though is no slouch was never ranked alongside the very best of today's crop. So does 2010 finally put M Schumachers career into perspective? We all remeber the days when Herbert was initially very close to M Schumachers times before the Englishman claimed he was suddenly not given access to telemetry. Or when Irvine had virtually 0 testing at Ferrari. And ironically at Mercedes two decades ironically enough when HHF was considered to be quicker? Are things finally being placed into their proper context?

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#3152 black magic

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Posted 13 July 2010 - 07:03

thx man but your comments add little to the debate.

if you believe judging a stellar career based on the return of a 41 yr old after 3 yr absence is no different to judging george foreman or mohommad ali on their last fights

federer is clearly not as dominant as he was despite having had no break - so is he no longer to be considered the most complete player in the sports history?

michael demonstrated towards the end of his main career that he had to work harder to win - witness china 2005 so I doubt any fan thought michael schumacher 2006 was as quick as schumacher 94 -2004. who expected him to have the same speed as when he was 25?

your points explaining away his dominance are regurgitated by his detractors are whilst factually correct ignore the reasons why the team concentrated on him - because time and time again he delivered when others had not

baddog summarise my impression - there is a gap to rosberg and not surprisingly michael is having to drive with all his current ability and hence he makes mistakes. he can still justify his place on outright pace - race winner - clearly not at the moment but unless major luck neither is rosberg. the gap is not as big as some would like to believe - michael was on rosbergs pace the entire race simply in a train. he diod beat rosberg for Q2 but also when needed made 2 crucial errors. yes there is a gap but it is not unbreachable.

credit to rosberg.

#3153 One

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Posted 13 July 2010 - 07:04

I am awefully disappointed to see how Schumacher defended himself against Vettel. It was almost like teaching his protege how to race.

#3154 arknor

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Posted 13 July 2010 - 07:18

Food for thought... Few would disagree that 2010 is probably the first time since 1991 where M Schumacher does not have the entire team he competes for moulded around him at the expense of the other driver. It is probably the first time where the car he is driving was not customised for him at the expense if the other driver. And it is probably the first time where he hasn't had the lions share of the testing at the expense of the driver. M Schumacher in his own words is driving as well as he has ever done and has the same motivation he has ever done. So is this a case of M Schumacher finally being found out for what he really is? He has been comprehensively thrashed by a driver in the form of Rosberg who though is no slouch was never ranked alongside the very best of today's crop. So does 2010 finally put M Schumachers career into perspective? We all remeber the days when Herbert was initially very close to M Schumachers times before the Englishman claimed he was suddenly not given access to telemetry. Or when Irvine had virtually 0 testing at Ferrari. And ironically at Mercedes two decades ironically enough when HHF was considered to be quicker? Are things finally being placed into their proper context?

or maybe its the cars are so easy to drive the driver doesnt make much difference its not like the driver has much to do anymore the hardest part is to prime the clutch on the warmup lap something barrichello struggled with and he still has bad starts where as schumacher always gets away well

#3155 Arion

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Posted 13 July 2010 - 07:21

federer is clearly not as dominant as he was despite having had no break - so is he no longer to be considered the most complete player in the sports history?


yes, it will affect his legacy.
the same for Schumacher, every year in the sport counts. the come back is a mistake.



#3156 peroa

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Posted 13 July 2010 - 07:24

or maybe its the cars are so easy to drive the driver doesnt make much difference its not like the driver has much to do anymore the hardest part is to prime the clutch on the warmup lap something barrichello struggled with and he still has bad starts where as schumacher always gets away well


Emmm, that was the case in MS's first career.

#3157 ivand911

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Posted 13 July 2010 - 07:27

I remember Irvine saying, Michael was just faster then me? Or I am wrong? I bring here Alonso and Massa here because, I look from your angle(points). Points tell us also that Petrov destroyed Hulk and Jaime. Liuzzi destroyed Buemi and Petrov. People with zero points don't deserve to even discuss them.

#3158 man

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Posted 13 July 2010 - 07:33

As Lauda and many other ex drivers have said, you never lose your ability or speed and I believe that is the case for M Schumacher. What happens is you lose the willingness to take risks and the motivation to contribute to the pr/marketing/travelling side of things. However M Sxhumacher is different to other previous "old" drivers. Unlike Prost in his latter years M Schumacher is willing to take risks as he was 15 years ago. We all saw him trying in Turkey. Unlike Piquet in the early 1990s m Schumacher is not in it for the money. Unlike Mansell in 1994 and 1995 he is not fat or out of shape. So as far as I am concerned M Schumacher is pretty much as good as he has ever been. Much of M Schumachers reputation was built upon beating Mr deCesaris and Piquet in 1991. Both of these drivers were well passed their peak and let's face it Piquet was even out-qualified by Nakajima on occasions in his latter years. Benetton then put all their resources and hopes into him recruiting clear number 2 status drivers. If we compare this to Alesi for example who had just as impressive first few races he went to Ferrari in 1991 to teammate Prost in Prosts team. M Schumacher had to deal with the likes of Verstappen hence reputations are created and a snowball effect continued. So if M Schumacher started his career at Spa 1991 alongside Mansell at Williams fo example where Mansell was pretty much as motivated as ever and as fast as ever I'm pretty sure things would have turned out quite differently regarding the status he has had within teams compared to his teammates.

#3159 Diablobb81

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Posted 13 July 2010 - 07:43

Food for thought... Few would disagree that 2010 is probably the first time since 1991 where M Schumacher does not have the entire team he competes for moulded around him at the expense of the other driver. It is probably the first time where the car he is driving was not customised for him at the expense if the other driver. And it is probably the first time where he hasn't had the lions share of the testing at the expense of the driver. M Schumacher in his own words is driving as well as he has ever done and has the same motivation he has ever done. So is this a case of M Schumacher finally being found out for what he really is? He has been comprehensively thrashed by a driver in the form of Rosberg who though is no slouch was never ranked alongside the very best of today's crop. So does 2010 finally put M Schumachers career into perspective? We all remeber the days when Herbert was initially very close to M Schumachers times before the Englishman claimed he was suddenly not given access to telemetry. Or when Irvine had virtually 0 testing at Ferrari. And ironically at Mercedes two decades ironically enough when HHF was considered to be quicker? Are things finally being placed into their proper context?


Yes, his performance this year clearly puts his past achievements into perspective.

Congratulations, you've invented a time machine.

Oh, wait, comparing Schumi after 3 years absence, in a modified F1 , at 41 years to any of his past years is moronic.

The only thing that can be said is that Rosberg this year is clearly beating him.

He has explanations/excuses for his not so stellar perfomances and we'll see if he can improve (and i believe he will).


Emmm, that was the case in MS's first career.


You can't be serious. Or rather to which part of the entire different regulations throughout his career are you referring?

Edited by Diablobb81, 13 July 2010 - 07:48.


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#3160 man

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Posted 13 July 2010 - 07:48

Yes, his performance this year clearly puts his past achievements into perspective.

Congratulations, you've invented a time machine.

Oh, wait, comparing Schumi after 3 years absence, in a modified F1 , at 41 years to any of his past years is moronic.


Polite words indeed!

However M Schumacher is as good as his last race, he has had half a seasons worth of practice qualifying and racing. He is as fit as other drivers and as I said earlier he appears to be willing to takes risks as much as anybody else and his motivation is as high as ever. I think you are doing him a great injustice by claiming he is no longer the man he was.

#3161 Diablobb81

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Posted 13 July 2010 - 07:50

Polite words indeed!



Well then, you can find another word for a comparison that has no logic behind it. Just hate.

I think you are doing him a great injustice by claiming he is no longer the man he was.



The results show that, for now, he isn't. And there might be different reasons for that (age, tires, no tests, unsuitable car). But the question if he will be close or the same as the old one is, for me, still open.

Edited by Diablobb81, 13 July 2010 - 07:53.


#3162 Fortymark

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Posted 13 July 2010 - 07:50

As Lauda and many other ex drivers have said, you never lose your ability or speed and I believe that is the case for M Schumacher. What happens is you lose the willingness to take risks and the motivation to contribute to the pr/marketing/travelling side of things. However M Sxhumacher is different to other previous "old" drivers. Unlike Prost in his latter years M Schumacher is willing to take risks as he was 15 years ago. We all saw him trying in Turkey. Unlike Piquet in the early 1990s m Schumacher is not in it for the money. Unlike Mansell in 1994 and 1995 he is not fat or out of shape. So as far as I am concerned M Schumacher is pretty much as good as he has ever been. Much of M Schumachers reputation was built upon beating Mr deCesaris and Piquet in 1991. Both of these drivers were well passed their peak and let's face it Piquet was even out-qualified by Nakajima on occasions in his latter years. Benetton then put all their resources and hopes into him recruiting clear number 2 status drivers. If we compare this to Alesi for example who had just as impressive first few races he went to Ferrari in 1991 to teammate Prost in Prosts team. M Schumacher had to deal with the likes of Verstappen hence reputations are created and a snowball effect continued. So if M Schumacher started his career at Spa 1991 alongside Mansell at Williams fo example where Mansell was pretty much as motivated as ever and as fast as ever I'm pretty sure things would have turned out quite differently regarding the status he has had within teams compared to his teammates.


:up:
Well said

And your other post too

Edited by Fortymark, 13 July 2010 - 08:09.


#3163 MikeTekRacing

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Posted 13 July 2010 - 08:02

He has explanations/excuses for his not so stellar perfomances and we'll see if he can improve (and i believe he will).

no he won't :)
at the first glance of speed vs rosberg it will be again brawn developing the car for him not for Nico
how many posters that wrote the long wheel base is designed to hurt nico and michael look better? how many of those admit they wrote stupid things?
it will take only a small sign of speed from ms and we will haev them back...together with "he's lucky, his not a sportsman, etc"

Edited by MikeTekRacing, 13 July 2010 - 08:03.


#3164 man

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Posted 13 July 2010 - 08:18

Well then, you can find another word for a comparison that has no logic behind it. Just hate.




The results show that, for now, he isn't. And there might be different reasons for that (age, tires, no tests, unsuitable car). But the question if he will be close or the same as the old one is, for me, still open.


I think it's best not to assume I hate M Schumacher. It's a bit childish so keep it on topic please. :-)

Results in no way indicate if a driver is performing at his peak. I believe he is as good/bad as he was before he retired. The difference between now and his wdc winning years is that he is having to compete against better quality drivers and he no longer has such a privillaged set-up within his team.

#3165 MCh000

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Posted 13 July 2010 - 08:23

I really hope next year's car will be designed around Michael otherwise we might again have a "winning" car that is capable for podium finish accidentally. An input from Michael who actually knows what winning car is will be vital and that is one of the reasons why Brown hired Schumacher.

#3166 MikeTekRacing

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Posted 13 July 2010 - 08:26

Results in no way indicate if a driver is performing at his peak. I believe he is as good/bad as he was before he retired. The difference between now and his wdc winning years is that he is having to compete against better quality drivers and he no longer has such a privillaged set-up within his team.

that's the key in all your message. obviously you're entitled to believe anything you wish
It doesn't mean it's true though ;)

and to think about it..you're actually right about something..
"Results in no way indicate if a driver is performing at his peak" the problem is you're disregarding all the facts that would help him (the break, lack of testing/development, etc)....you're very selective about what you cnsider as "the difference" and you ignore a lot of things in the assessment.

#3167 aditya-now

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Posted 13 July 2010 - 08:34

Food for thought... Few would disagree that 2010 is probably the first time since 1991 where M Schumacher does not have the entire team he competes for moulded around him at the expense of the other driver. It is probably the first time where the car he is driving was not customised for him at the expense if the other driver. And it is probably the first time where he hasn't had the lions share of the testing at the expense of the driver. M Schumacher in his own words is driving as well as he has ever done and has the same motivation he has ever done. So is this a case of M Schumacher finally being found out for what he really is? He has been comprehensively thrashed by a driver in the form of Rosberg who though is no slouch was never ranked alongside the very best of today's crop. So does 2010 finally put M Schumachers career into perspective? We all remeber the days when Herbert was initially very close to M Schumachers times before the Englishman claimed he was suddenly not given access to telemetry. Or when Irvine had virtually 0 testing at Ferrari. And ironically at Mercedes two decades ironically enough when HHF was considered to be quicker? Are things finally being placed into their proper context?


Well put - it makes you think.

I had this intuitive feeling for all the time anyway, the truth is probably even much bigger than you or I could ever state, as many details will have never been made known to the public.
You are just describing the tip of the iceberg here.


#3168 aditya-now

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Posted 13 July 2010 - 08:40

I think you are doing him a great injustice by claiming he is no longer the man he was.


He is indeed still the man he always was (unless we believe in Luca Montezemolo who professes that he is his own twin brother).
The only thing that has changed are the peripheral circumstances and conditions - now things are not as much under MS´s control as they used to be, and lo and behold!

Any rookie is in that situation of not being able to control the situation and has to prove his worth nonetheless, otherwise he´d be laid off.

Edited by aditya-now, 13 July 2010 - 08:40.


#3169 aditya-now

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Posted 13 July 2010 - 08:45

or maybe its the cars are so easy to drive the driver doesnt make much difference its not like the driver has much to do anymore the hardest part is to prime the clutch on the warmup lap something barrichello struggled with and he still has bad starts where as schumacher always gets away well


So handling the clutch well on the warm-up lap is where Michael distinguishes himself nowadays?!? Wow.
If the cars were so easy to drive as you say, why is Michael then not driving better? It should be easy.

#3170 man

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Posted 13 July 2010 - 08:47

that's the key in all your message. obviously you're entitled to believe anything you wish
It doesn't mean it's true though ;)

and to think about it..you're actually right about something..
"Results in no way indicate if a driver is performing at his peak" the problem is you're disregarding all the facts that would help him (the break, lack of testing/development, etc)....you're very selective about what you cnsider as "the difference" and you ignore a lot of things in the assessment.


Prior to 2010 many of his fans and experts such as Lauda claimed he would need a couple of races and then he would be back to his best. He has had half a season and still no sign of coming to terms of the superiority that Rosberg has within the team. The goal posts keep on moving, now it is a case of wait until next season! If Rosberg had been with Merc for the last 2 plus years I think the mitigating circumsatnces you are pleading foe would be applicable. However M Schumacher has a wealth of experience and wisdom. He knows the Merc team as well if not better than Rosberg with his precious connections with Brawn. He is in shape, he is motivated as ever he takes risks he is not a number 2 he has had half a season back. Exactly when will it be considered a possibility that Rosberg is simply a better driver?

#3171 aditya-now

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Posted 13 July 2010 - 08:53

that's the key in all your message. obviously you're entitled to believe anything you wish
It doesn't mean it's true though ;)

and to think about it..you're actually right about something..
"Results in no way indicate if a driver is performing at his peak" the problem is you're disregarding all the facts that would help him (the break, lack of testing/development, etc)....you're very selective about what you cnsider as "the difference" and you ignore a lot of things in the assessment.


The key to most messages on here is belief.
If we look at the facts and not at the belief some old-time MS-worshippers still have, what does it tell us about Michael ?


#3172 Diablobb81

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Posted 13 July 2010 - 08:57

If we look at the facts and not at the belief some old-time MS-worshippers still have, what does it tell us about Michael ?


That he is struggling this year. And that's about it.

Exactly when will it be considered a possibility that Rosberg is simply a better driver?


For now, Rosberg is a better driver.

Edited by Diablobb81, 13 July 2010 - 08:59.


#3173 aditya-now

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Posted 13 July 2010 - 08:58

The goal posts keep on moving, now it is a case of wait until next season!


Yeah, isn´t it funny, first it was "wait until the update of the car to suit Michael´s driving style better", then "wait until Barcelona then you shall see!", then it was "wait until mid-season!", now it is "wait until 2011!"
It keeps me wondering how long Mercedes-Benz will go on financing this exercise - the whole start of the team (and take-over from Brawn GP) was heavily criticised from parts within the boardroom of the company itself, from German politicians as well as from the Mercedes workforce.


#3174 Dragonfly

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Posted 13 July 2010 - 09:04

Being a fan means just that - believing in the abilities of the man you chose to support.

#3175 man

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Posted 13 July 2010 - 09:10

Being a fan means just that - believing in the abilities of the man you chose to support.


Being a fan doesnt mean you have to turn a blind eye to reality. I was a fan of Nakajima in the 1980s, I never deluded myself into believing he was better than he really was.

Edited by man, 13 July 2010 - 09:11.


#3176 aditya-now

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Posted 13 July 2010 - 09:10

Being a fan means just that - believing in the abilities of the man you chose to support.


Being a fan means just that - being a bit blind sometimes.

To have a look at the etymology: fan derives from fanatic.

Or, to put it in Sri Ramakrishna´s words: "The only true faith is blind faith!"


#3177 Dragonfly

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Posted 13 July 2010 - 09:42

Being a fan means just that - being a bit blind sometimes.

To have a look at the etymology: fan derives from fanatic.

Or, to put it in Sri Ramakrishna´s words: "The only true faith is blind faith!"

I know the etymology.
Supporter is the better word although 'fan' is the more popular one. But blind is a strong word. I don't consider myself such. Watching the practice sessions and the races while keeping an eye on the live timing gives a bit different picture for me. While I do not deny that MS is struggling for whatever reasons there are, the fan part of me believes he knows what he's doing. And I think he also realizes his return has turned to be harder than initially expected.
Already in 2006 he said it cost him much more effort to keep in top form against the younger drivers, must be even harder now to compensate and catch up.

Edited by Dragonfly, 13 July 2010 - 09:43.


#3178 aditya-now

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Posted 13 July 2010 - 09:46

d.
Already in 2006 he said it cost him much more effort to keep in top form against the younger drivers, must be even harder now to compensate and catch up.


This is a fair point, and one of the reasons why I was opposed to his comeback, stating already in early January "hopefully Michael will not regret his comeback".
Here we are, and the one thing I like about Michael in this situation is how he holds himself up in the interviews. We see a better, more human version of him in defeat than we have seen in victory.


#3179 as65p

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Posted 13 July 2010 - 10:04

At the start of the season my estimation was that MS won't feature in the WDC hunt, but there would be 1 or 2 races were things would fall into place and we would see flashes of the old genius.

I think it's fair to say that the first part of that has come true already, and I'm still holding on to the 2nd part, but only just.

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#3180 MikeTekRacing

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Posted 13 July 2010 - 10:05

Being a fan doesnt mean you have to turn a blind eye to reality. I was a fan of Nakajima in the 1980s, I never deluded myself into believing he was better than he really was.

at the same time you are contradicting yourself
reality says he is the most successfull driver in history
reality says he has put in some stellar drivers in his career and achieved fantastic results
you say that he is the same he ever was


saying that he only achieved success due to special times is turning a blind eye to reality.Circumstances have changed, that is clear, but not only those you like to point out...also the "excuses" are mostly valid.
He is getting older and if you discard this because it doesn't suit the agenda (i.e. trying to prove he's never been good) then it's again closing an eye to reality.

So far this season he has had
-the only technical problem in the team
-some extremely strange strategy calls.

if nico would have had them the boards would be full of "brawn is helping schumi out". like the long wheelbase car.....designed to hurt nico, right? just because in 3 consecutive races michael got the better results it was proof that the team is hurting nico

it's an argument that can't be won

#3181 SeanValen

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Posted 13 July 2010 - 10:07

no he won't :)
at the first glance of speed vs rosberg it will be again brawn developing the car for him not for Nico
how many posters that wrote the long wheel base is designed to hurt nico and michael look better? how many of those admit they wrote stupid things?
it will take only a small sign of speed from ms and we will haev them back...together with "he's lucky, his not a sportsman, etc"



Your probabley right, there was nothing wrong with MS's weekends at Spain, Turkey and Monaco, races were his performances were respectable and to the standard many expected, but ultimately the car wasn't contending for a win, and some luck was needed for a podium, he didn't get points for his Alonso move at Monaco, and at Turkey no safety cars or race attrition came to his aid to help out with a podium or better result, where as a safety car took away his potentially better finishing position at Valencia along with Alonso. But ultimately qualifying and getting the soft tyres to work, something that has been a work in progress, on some tracks like Spain, Turkey/Monaco he was able to find set up options in what is a very different f1 tyre/car/rule combo, so there are moments and performances to note just not the race wins that went with them but points finishes.

If were talking long term thinking, Schumi 91 wins, Rosberg 0.

Until Rosberg gets wins and fights up front with regular expectation and championship responsibility, for all we know, he maybe just capitilsing in catching out Schumacher who is a different and more patient 3 year programme to get his results and title, and clearly this year the task technically to extract the great Schumacher driving style from these rules/tyres hasn't happened in the time frame expected, but you can never write him off until he's gone, Until he can drive the car the way he wants on alot of the tracks, who knows how much time Schumacher gave up to drive the current chassic which has inherent issues that are not going to be completely solved for Michael to drive the way he did before he left ferrari, alot of these upgrades are hit and hope without testing, redbull and mclaren seem to have done a better job. Michael is a unique driver with demands to maximise his abilities and utililation of the tools available, but f1 does not operate with the type of preparation he did his 1st career, so it's possible he and team was always going to not get it consistently right. Given the names involved, and how hard it is to win in f1, let alone a driver with 7 titles and 91 wins, it's a bit silly to set your time frame on a driver who has his own time frame and plans which are dependent on many factors.

I seem to remember Fernando Alonso just looking like he was missing something in 2004 against Trulli in that Renault, he lacked that bit extra, yet in other cars Alonso has exceled over teamates.

Was Kimi ever the same on Bridgestones? Is Michael the same on these current tyres, next year there are different tyres, all these things make it hard to judge and compare MS with past MS. The way f1 is geared now, everything is about planning way earlier, and MS arrived at mercedes at christmas with hardly no testing. Kimi wasn't the same qualifyer on bridgestones then michelins, Michael isn't the same on these current tyres/rules/ Massa is really off par with the current car/rules.

F1 can change so much, maybe this year is a odd year with many things against MS, but given how quickly f1 changes, things can change back to a driver's way as well.

http://uk.eurosport....schumacher.html


“Listen, he loves driving, and where else are you going to get the same fulfilment or kick? It’s not about the money. He is a racing driver, it’s what he loves to do and he’s still a pretty young guy – 41 these days isn’t that old.

“I did think he was getting the upper hand [over Rosberg] for a while. ‘Situation normal’ for Michael is that his rightful place is up at the front – then all is well with the world. That’s where he sees himself still. You can never write him off – I made that mistake. He is very determined and he will want to show that it’s still possible to win when you’re 41. He is never out; somehow he is always able to pull something out of the hat.”



I agree with Hill.


Edited by SeanValen, 13 July 2010 - 10:33.


#3182 Gareth

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Posted 13 July 2010 - 10:14

As Lauda and many other ex drivers have said, you never lose your ability or speed and I believe that is the case for M Schumacher. [...]

Much of M Schumachers reputation was built upon beating Mr deCesaris and Piquet in 1991. Both of these drivers were well passed their peak.

Contradictory much?


#3183 as65p

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Posted 13 July 2010 - 10:20

Contradictory much?


Not necessarily a contradiction, I think he meant to say his ability was only ever as good as beating the aging de Cesaris and Piquet, and today without any favouritism and tailormade surroundings it shows.

Note that I personally won't go that far.  ;)

#3184 Gareth

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Posted 13 July 2010 - 10:25

Not necessarily a contradiction, I think he meant to say his ability was only ever as good as beating the aging de Cesaris and Piquet, and today without any favouritism and tailormade surroundings it shows.

Note that I personally won't go that far.;)

The suggestion in the first line I quoted is that the Schumacher of today is as good as the Schumacher of (say) 2000. Age has no effect on Schumacher.

The second line suggests that beating Piquet and de Cesaris doesn't mean anything because they were old.

Basically, if you are Schumacher your age offers you no excuse but if you are beaten by Schumacher your age is all important.

#3185 man

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Posted 13 July 2010 - 10:31

The suggestion in the first line I quoted is that the Schumacher of today is as good as the Schumacher of (say) 2000. Age has no effect on Schumacher.

The second line suggests that beating Piquet and de Cesaris doesn't mean anything because they were old.

Basically, if you are Schumacher your age offers you no excuse but if you are beaten by Schumacher your age is all important. regarding de decesaris, as interesting a character he was, he was never considered a top GP driver.


Not contradiction at all. :-)

If you read what I have written full you wool have noticed I mentioned Piquet had no motivation to push himself he was interested in money and a playboy lifestyle. His downhill trend from 1987 onwards was not so much to with his age, though imola 87 did have an impact but the fact that if he felt he didn't have a cat capable of winning he was not going to push himself hence flavios pay per point agreement for 1990.

#3186 Ferrari_F1_fan_2001

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Posted 13 July 2010 - 10:43

Well put - it makes you think.

Food for thought... Few would disagree that 2010 is probably the first time since 1991 where M Schumacher does not have the entire team he competes for moulded around him at the expense of the other driver. It is probably the first time where the car he is driving was not customised for him at the expense if the other driver. And it is probably the first time where he hasn't had the lions share of the testing at the expense of the driver. M Schumacher in his own words is driving as well as he has ever done and has the same motivation he has ever done. So is this a case of M Schumacher finally being found out for what he really is? He has been comprehensively thrashed by a driver in the form of Rosberg who though is no slouch was never ranked alongside the very best of today's crop. So does 2010 finally put M Schumachers career into perspective? We all remeber the days when Herbert was initially very close to M Schumachers times before the Englishman claimed he was suddenly not given access to telemetry. Or when Irvine had virtually 0 testing at Ferrari. And ironically at Mercedes two decades ironically enough when HHF was considered to be quicker? Are things finally being placed into their proper context?


Possibly, but 3 years out of the sport, lack of testing, being 41 years old and having to deal with a different generation of drivers/car/tyres invariably has an equally significant impact on his current performances.

Look, I'm a massive Schumacher fan but I'm also a realist too. I think he has lost his pure speed (probably forever) but his technical abilities to develop a car haven't gone away. What he lacks in speed now I think he'll make up for in some other department.

It's no good saying 'ahhh, Schumacher has been exposed as a fraud now he isn't #1 in the team anymore', that is a childish and immature comment to make. There ARE other factors from a purely objective point of view that have to be considered. A fraud doesn't win 7 World Championships and smash every record in the book purely because he is #1 and has the best car. It is done through hard work, dedication, commitment and a desire to win.

Others have had similarly great cars yet haven't been able to translate their superior machinery into great results.


I'm not saying Schumacher is the best of all time (he clearly is up there) but the man demands respect for what he brought to the game for so long.

#3187 SeanValen

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Posted 13 July 2010 - 10:54

I'm not saying Schumacher is the best of all time (he clearly is up there) but the man demands respect for what he brought to the game for so long.



:up:
Too many missed what Schumacher brought to the game throughout his career and if he wins with mercedes in the next few years, they'll miss that as well. The way f1 is as a sport, it's not a simple contest of Federer vs Nadal in tennis, the amount of factors, elements, rules, situatons, chance, safety car, tyres and design crew doing bad or good jobs, you can relate success and excuses and vice versa to all those things and more, it's why most MS threads will be big books of content and most likely stuck in a loop.

Tennis is racket, ball and player

F1 is car, team, pitcrew, where is the safety car when the crash happened, tyre compound, strategy, team calls, traffic, design crew etc etc, list goes on, and everyone on forums usually think they know more then MS and Brawn themselfs, and they won't admit everything for their own reasons, so it's why were going to get alot of discussion going in all directions, there's no final conclusion, it's eternity

Edited by SeanValen, 13 July 2010 - 10:57.


#3188 man

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Posted 13 July 2010 - 11:02

I'm not doubting his dedication. He is without doubt one of the if not the most dedicated driver I am aware of in te history of the sport. I am saying M Schumacher through circumstances asni have explained ended up in situations where he was continuously at an advantage compared to his rivals and teammates which made it a lot easier for him to achieve what he has. As I said, if he made his debut alongside Mansell or Prost in 1991 things would have panned out very differently and I'm certain he wouldn't have the 7 wdc he has ended up with. Now we see him in a team where his situation is pretty much equal to that of his teammate , a level of equality M Schumacher has never had since 1991 and suddenly he doesn't appear to be anywhere near as good. Lauda said age van affect a driver in different ways which are:

Risk taking - in my view M Schumacher is still a risk taker.
Motivation - M Schumacher himself has said he is as motivated as ever
Fitness - M Schumacher has always been fit and I'm convinced his fitness level is in no way detrimental to his performances.
Experience with current regs - Lauda and M Schumacher followers and other experts said it would take a couple maybe five race to be fully adjusted to current cars.

So I arrive at the conclusion that age has not in anyway affected M Schumacher and is therefore as good as he has ever been. His circumstances have changed and give the illusion he isn't te same driver but the criteria set by Lauda suggests he is as good as he has ever been. Therefore when we take into consideration how he was favoured before with his respective teams we can finally see his true level.

#3189 Dragonfly

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Posted 13 July 2010 - 11:04

This is a fair point, and one of the reasons why I was opposed to his comeback, stating already in early January "hopefully Michael will not regret his comeback".
Here we are, and the one thing I like about Michael in this situation is how he holds himself up in the interviews. We see a better, more human version of him in defeat than we have seen in victory.

Two points where we are not in agreement.
1. I don't think he will regret his comeback irrespective of the results. He enjoys racing and his return is IMO more for being into racing again than to prove something he has already proven in his peak age. Also I am convinced that if he he saw his task to be in front or equal to Nico on points standing and concentrated on that, he'd be there with some small margin above or below. My understanding though is that bean, I mean point, counting is not what a driver who's been 7 times on the very top, will concentrate on. If Michael is climbing down, Nico is still at the base of the mountain, figuratively speaking. Nico still has to win races not to speak about a title to get to know the feeling and perhaps evolve to a different state of mind.
2. I don't know why, maybe because in the 90-ties in my country I didn't have so much access to information and to the world as a whole, but I don't understand why you and other people call him arrogant. With the exception of Spa '98 and his storming the McLaren garage, I've never seen him behave like such, nor I have heard him make personal attacks and qualifications to his rivals. Something which cannot be said about some of them.
And now it's only natural to expect that maturity will increase with age. Don't know how old are you, but I know what I am speaking about.

Edited by Dragonfly, 13 July 2010 - 11:05.


#3190 Dragonfly

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Posted 13 July 2010 - 11:07

So I arrive at the conclusion that age has not in anyway affected M Schumacher and is therefore as good as he has ever been. His circumstances have changed and give the illusion he isn't te same driver but the criteria set by Lauda suggests he is as good as he has ever been. Therefore when we take into consideration how he was favoured before with his respective teams we can finally see his true level.

You can't defy age. You can only try to reduce the effect. Unfortunately.

#3191 man

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Posted 13 July 2010 - 11:14

You can't defy age. You can only try to reduce the effect. Unfortunately.


Indeed but as I have pointed out ageing does not necessarily make you a worse driver. Age CAN influence aspects of your driving but that is not mecssarily the case with M Schumacher in 2010.

#3192 man

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Posted 13 July 2010 - 11:15

You can't defy age. You can only try to reduce the effect. Unfortunately.


Indeed but as I have pointed out ageing does not necessarily make you a worse driver. Age CAN influence aspects of your driving but that is not mecssarily the case with M Schumacher in 2010.

#3193 as65p

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Posted 13 July 2010 - 11:23

The suggestion in the first line I quoted is that the Schumacher of today is as good as the Schumacher of (say) 2000. Age has no effect on Schumacher.

The second line suggests that beating Piquet and de Cesaris doesn't mean anything because they were old.

Basically, if you are Schumacher your age offers you no excuse but if you are beaten by Schumacher your age is all important.


Ah, okay. Escaped me, you're right in that sense (as usual). :wave:

#3194 Hacklerf

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Posted 13 July 2010 - 11:30

It annoys me to see so many jump on Schumacher saying that he is going retire again, over the years the Schumacher fans become used to this, but the bashers of Michael do not understand him, he will win again before he goes

#3195 Sakae

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Posted 13 July 2010 - 11:46

Failure of democracy; everyone thinks they can say whatever comes in mind. Outsiders telling RBR how to manage team, here they retiring Schumacher, and what's next? Telling others who will live and who will not? I have high hopes that he will stay for duration, even as I am not sure if Stuttgart see it the same way; at the end it might not be entirely up to Michael, whether he will be allowed to finish what he has undertaken. I didn't expect return to be so challenging, but my trust in Michael's resilience and ability to rise above is unshaken. Now as his fan I shall wait patiently and quietly to the end.

Edited by Sakae, 13 July 2010 - 11:47.


#3196 ivand911

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Posted 13 July 2010 - 12:00

If Michael decide not to drive next year will be only his decision. Mercedes know very well they didn't give him car that can win WDC and WCC. Hope he stay.

#3197 man

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Posted 13 July 2010 - 12:12

If Michael decide not to drive next year will be only his decision. Mercedes know very well they didn't give him car that can win WDC and WCC. Hope he stay.


Erm... Before we talk about car, wouldn't it be more appropriate to say Mercedes didn't give him a teammate that enables him to be WDC? Even if Merc provides a WDC wing car, he still has the small matter of trying to match let alone beat Mr Rosberg?

Am I missing something?

#3198 man

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Posted 13 July 2010 - 12:17

Or perhaps it was Mercs responsibility to not only provide a wdc winning car but also a teammate to M Schumacher that is not so good? In that case I agree, Mercedes have let him down unlike Ferrari an benetton.

#3199 Gareth

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Posted 13 July 2010 - 12:21

Not contradiction at all. :-)

If you read what I have written full you wool have noticed I mentioned Piquet had no motivation to push himself he was interested in money and a playboy lifestyle. His downhill trend from 1987 onwards was not so much to with his age, though imola 87 did have an impact but the fact that if he felt he didn't have a cat capable of winning he was not going to push himself hence flavios pay per point agreement for 1990.

Ok, maybe the claim of a direct contradiction is incorrect in light of your clarifying. But I have to say I think you are very generous in your reasons for people who Schumacher beats having lost speed and rather ungenerous when considering whether Schumacher may have lost speed.

He's 41. He's had 3 years out of, not just F1, but all single seater racing. These seem much more tangible reasons for a driver losing speed, to me, than "Piquet was just in it for the money". Yet you give 100% credence to the latter and 0% to the former.

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#3200 Dragonfly

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Posted 13 July 2010 - 12:35

Erm... Before we talk about car, wouldn't it be more appropriate to say Mercedes didn't give him a teammate that enables him to be WDC? Even if Merc provides a WDC wing car, he still has the small matter of trying to match let alone beat Mr Rosberg?

Am I missing something?

I am afraid you miss a lot.
And the main omission is that whatever teammate, whatever the position inside the team, the driver in question has to deliver on the track. Most of the time and with confidence. And there, in the cockpit, no one else is driving on his behalf.
Second thing is that a team will agree to give preferential treatment and a cosmic salary to a driver, who is worth doing it. Preferential treatment, if given at all, is given not for beauty, media rating or personal charm. It is the consequence, not the cause.

Edited by Dragonfly, 13 July 2010 - 12:38.