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#3501 SeanValen

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Posted 17 July 2010 - 11:32

Nice posting Sean but you understand whats going to happen with the Alonso fan boys now that you said this ...

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I appreciate Alonso at Ferrari, I'm not a fan of his comments now and again, but with Hamilton at Mclaren, Kimi rallying, and MS at mercedes with his plan to return to form, Ferrari has the best possible driver available to them, and Massa isn't doing well this year, and Alonso even with odd moments, he has been driving very well and has gotten unlucky, but with Alonso, Kimi and now Massa, we've seen how great drivers or drivers who have done well can falter with consistency at ferrari, Kimi's not so great qualifying era after mclaren with ferrari, still got title, a 75% Kimi is still better then a 100% Jenson Button, because you know at tracks like france/spa, Kimi is long gone like MS as those guys revel on those fast corners, MS has won france like 8 times I believe, and Massa once said "there was nothing I could do against Kimi at france",

The problem is, there are not enough Barcelona/turkey/monaco tracks in 1 season, all where MS done well this year, and found set ups to extract his old style, that extraction can only be helped by Mercedes and they would be stupid not to help him out given the huge potential a MS on fire with his driving style free to roam that lively oversteer in corners can achieve, we saw it at Spain this year for sure, that was the true resurrection of MS this year as Niki Lauda said. MS will have to endure some pain this year and already has said, he's fine with that, if it doesn't work out in 2011 and 2012, then we can call his come back as not working out, but we appreciated you trying etc Unitl then we'll only see hidden panic with the forums regarding being afraid of MS unleashing his style on the next mercedes car, or even some potential performances at the remaining races this year, it can't get that worse, but it could get very fantastic, we've stalled the MS expectations period, now it's best to forget he's there, until those fastest laps appear at Spa with MSCHUMACHER, or his pole at Hungary, or podium at Suzuka, wishful thinking, but not impossible given he's capable of speed to win, the extraction per as track will be up to the team and his understanding in the short time frame they have to do something with the 2nd half of this season to change the perception. After China 2010, MS was dead, in Spain was resurrected, at Monaco was a hero with the world wanting him to get his points back, at Turkey he was sniffing a podium almost, and he's not been one of the lucky drivers, so with more extraction, more luck, more work from the team, every chance something can be done with the remaining races plus definately 2011,.

And in concluding, important quote from MS in 2005
"Better to have sat on the throne, then to never have sat there at all." Sat there 7 times, going for a 8th

Rosberg, sat nowhere so far, may sit there someday.






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#3502 Jazza

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Posted 17 July 2010 - 11:38

7 x 1st WDC, 3 x 2nd WDC, 3 x 3rd WDC and incredibly not lower than 4th (once) in his entire F1 career (full season duh) and 91 wins out of 154 podiums from 259 starts and the incredible figure of more than 10% wins of the entire number of GP's ever run in the history of GP racing. Not to mention that the scoring system was changed because of him.

Find me one driver in his era that even gets 20% of those figures.

Now you prove your statement that he wasn't head and shoulders above the rest?

Start by finding me a driver of the same general era that is listed ahead of him in any drivers lists even close behind....


Yeah thats what I thought. A bunch of statistics that prove nothing about a drivers ability.

Mind you, if we compare him to Hill or Mika during the time that they were all active they both get more then your 20% requirement.

99
DH - 1WDC
MS - 2WDC

2001
MH - 2WDC
MS - 4WDC

Numbers hardly prove anything.


#3503 Jazza

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Posted 17 July 2010 - 11:41

Nelson Piquet what?

MS beat Nelson 2 of 3 finishes but who cares, Nelson was ending and MS was starting - some comparison :rolleyes:


Yeah... thats the point.

MS beating Nelson in 91 means nothing more than Rosberg beating MS in 2010. Yet how many used MS beating a 3WDC as some great accomplishment. It meant nothing.

#3504 cheapracer

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Posted 17 July 2010 - 11:42

For someone who started watching F1 three weeks ago, that must be considered a reasonable assumption.

I think we should make cheapracer aware that someone has obviously stolen his account data. :mad:


LOL, the same Senna who whined and bitched about his car being a shitheap although good enough to put on pole 3 races in a row who whined and bitched that others had traction control because "he went out and listened to them himself".

Mind you the other couple of hundred techs and engineers who design and build the very systems and spend thousands of hours listening to F1's didn't mention a thing :lol:

Then theres the launch control that even put MS into 3rd from 2nd in one of those 3 races.... :lol:

You guys are quite entertaining ....

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#3505 AlainProstX

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Posted 17 July 2010 - 11:47

7 x 1st WDC, 3 x 2nd WDC, 3 x 3rd WDC and incredibly not lower than 4th (once) in his entire F1 career (full season duh) and 91 wins out of 154 podiums from 259 starts and the incredible figure of more than 10% wins of the entire number of GP's ever run in the history of GP racing. Not to mention that the scoring system was changed because of him.

Find me one driver in his era that even gets 20% of those figures.

Now you prove your statement that he wasn't head and shoulders above the rest?

Start by finding me a driver of the same general era that is listed ahead of him in any drivers lists even close behind....



Hamilton has only 1 WDC, not even 20 wins and poles but is ten times better then MS this season.

And 4 years ago, Alonso destroyed MS.

Oh, going by your "success" logic, why hasn`t MS scored one podium this season? Rosberg has already scored 3 IIRC.

#3506 Diablobb81

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Posted 17 July 2010 - 11:48

Yeah thats what I thought. A bunch of statistics that prove nothing about a drivers ability.


You can say that statistics alone don't tell the whole story.

But if you completely ignore statistics then it's just a subjective opinion and basically worthless.

Hamilton has only 1 WDC, not even 20 wins and poles but is ten times better then MS this season.

And 4 years ago, Alonso destroyed MS.

Oh, going by your "success" logic, why hasn`t MS scored one podium this season? Rosberg has already scored 3 IIRC.


Because this season is this season, not his entire career. And Hami is hardly the same generation as Schumacher. And Alonso partially.

Also, Alonso destroyed nothing.

Edited by Diablobb81, 17 July 2010 - 11:50.


#3507 AlainProstX

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Posted 17 July 2010 - 11:51

And Alonso destroyed nothing.


Yeah, I was exagrating it a bit.

But Alonso beat Schumacher in 2006. Lewis would say "I blew him away!" :lol:


#3508 cheapracer

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Posted 17 July 2010 - 11:53

Yet how many used MS beating a 3WDC as some great accomplishment. It meant nothing.


I agree. I also take the stance that Rosberg is doing bloody well and not just because he is beating MS, very impressed the Williams must have been a real dog after all.

This also may well mean that Nakajima is better than appears.


#3509 Jazza

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Posted 17 July 2010 - 11:54

You can say that statistics alone don't tell the whole story.

But if you completely ignore statistics then it's just a subjective opinion and basically worthless.


7 WDC show that MS was great and that he was hungry for success. He didn't give up after 1 or 2 WDC, but that he had the commitment and talent to keep going and going.

What it doesn't show is proof that he was head and shoulders better then his rivals (most of whom had retired before he even had half of his stats).

#3510 SparkPlug

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Posted 17 July 2010 - 12:08

7 WDC show that MS was great and that he was hungry for success. He didn't give up after 1 or 2 WDC, but that he had the commitment and talent to keep going and going.

What it doesn't show is proof that he was head and shoulders better then his rivals (most of whom had retired before he even had half of his stats).

I think you like to talk in vague terms and leave stuff up in the air. Do you work in management ?
What else should MS have done inorder to convince you that he was head and shoulders better than his rivals(except Mika, who was close between 98-00, but definitely behind him in an all time list) ?

Edited by SparkPlug, 17 July 2010 - 12:09.


#3511 SparkPlug

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Posted 17 July 2010 - 12:14

Not any better than I did in my original post in which neither Alex Yong nor other illustrous backmarkers featured. Sorry.


This didnt quite answer my question at all. Ah well, no point debating with you I guess. You have made 7000 posts and still dont know how to debate ? :rotfl:

#3512 cheapracer

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Posted 17 July 2010 - 12:14

Hamilton has only 1 WDC, not even 20 wins and poles but is ten times better then MS this season.

And 4 years ago, Alonso destroyed MS.

Oh, going by your "success" logic, why hasn`t MS scored one podium this season? Rosberg has already scored 3 IIRC.


If you want to include Rosberg and Hamilton success then they don't even rate on the chart yet but thats silly isn't it?

Alonso's success also doesn't rate very high in comparison even all 3 combined doesn't reach halfway but you believe what you want to.

Lets take say Alonso, Mika, Kimi, Hill and JV together, easily MS's main combatants and add their scores and they about match MS's score combined.

Shit MS was a lucky chap :rotfl:






#3513 cheapracer

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Posted 17 July 2010 - 12:18

except Mika, who was close between 98-00, but definitely behind him in an all time list


Mika was awesome, loved watching the 2 of them race and you could see the 2 of them loved racing each other - good days passed, thanks for the memories guys :up:

Time for a movie and a scotch, it's Saturday night!

Edited by cheapracer, 17 July 2010 - 12:18.


#3514 Jazza

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Posted 17 July 2010 - 12:20

I think you like to talk in vague terms and leave stuff up in the air. Do you work in management ?


Because talking in absolutes about something that can not be perfectly measured is silly.

What else should MS have done inorder to convince you that he was head and shoulders better than his rivals(except Mika, who was close between 98-00, but definitely behind him in an all time list) ?


Maybe actually be head and shoulders better then Mika in 98-00 :rolleyes:



#3515 as65p

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Posted 17 July 2010 - 12:21

LOL, the same Senna who whined and bitched about his car being a shitheap although good enough to put on pole 3 races in a row who whined and bitched that others had traction control because "he went out and listened to them himself".

Mind you the other couple of hundred techs and engineers who design and build the very systems and spend thousands of hours listening to F1's didn't mention a thing :lol:

Then theres the launch control that even put MS into 3rd from 2nd in one of those 3 races.... :lol:

You guys are quite entertaining ....

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That's all you can come up with, eh? Barely disguised anger vented through clenched attempts at being funny. Then again you are, in a slightly twisted way.

I sense it's been tough times with your heros comeback promising so much and delivering so little. Just let go, you'll feel better eventually. A good first step would be to stop talking about Senna in each and every Schumacher thread sooner or later, because all it points to is a deep lingering inferiority complex.

#3516 aditya-now

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Posted 17 July 2010 - 12:22

I appreciate Alonso at Ferrari, I'm not a fan of his comments now and again, but with Hamilton at Mclaren, Kimi rallying, and MS at mercedes with his plan to return to form, Ferrari has the best possible driver available to them, and Massa isn't doing well this year, and Alonso even with odd moments, he has been driving very well and has gotten unlucky, but with Alonso, Kimi and now Massa, we've seen how great drivers or drivers who have done well can falter with consistency at ferrari....



It´s an interesting point you make here, Sean, and also we have seen in 1996, that, while MS showed some brilliant races, he also faltered on a regular basis. Bring in the dream team from 1997 onwards, give them three more years to regroup the Scuderia till they are capable of championships and you have that "era Ferrari" of which Schumi spoke of in 2000.

Fast forward to 2007, the last year of the remainders of the dream team, then Todt was gone as well. 2008 sees a last, formidable stand of Ferrari, pity for Massa as it was very close (his only ever chance at the WDC).
Cue on to 2009, no Massa, no Kimi was able to salvage, cue on to 2010, no Alonso ditto.
Imagine Schumi at Ferrari in 2010.... :rolleyes:

#3517 as65p

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Posted 17 July 2010 - 12:23

This didnt quite answer my question at all. Ah well, no point debating with you I guess. You have made 7000 posts and still dont know how to debate ? :rotfl:


My post was as clear as it could be for anyone with a decent grasp of english. See you when one day you're one of those who posess it. :wave:

#3518 aditya-now

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Posted 17 July 2010 - 12:25

You guys are quite entertaining ....


You are not.

I always pity the poor choice of words you use, coming straight from the disposal site.


#3519 SparkPlug

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Posted 17 July 2010 - 12:27

Because talking in absolutes about something that can not be perfectly measured is silly.



Maybe actually be head and shoulders better then Mika in 98-00 :rolleyes:

Its not possible for a sportsman to be head and shoulders above his competition all the time. If you take their overall careers into perspective, MS is overall head and shoulders better than Hakkinen (this coming from a lifelong Hakkinen fan).

Just to give you an example. Nothing robs Roger Federer of his title as the greatest grass court player of all time, and not if Nadal challenges him for only a couple of years out of his 7 year reign. The key difference between a legend and a good sportsman is longevity and consistency.

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#3520 SparkPlug

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Posted 17 July 2010 - 12:28

My post was as clear as it could be for anyone with a decent grasp of english. See you when one day you're one of those who posess it. :wave:

Keep adding to your post count, one day you will reach 10,000 with "deep analysis" such as this

#3521 Jazza

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Posted 17 July 2010 - 12:34

Its not possible for a sportsman to be head and shoulders above his competition all the time. If you take their overall careers into perspective, MS is overall head and shoulders better than Hakkinen (this coming from a lifelong Hakkinen fan).

Just to give you an example. Nothing robs Roger Federer of his title as the greatest grass court player of all time, and not if Nadal challenges him for only a couple of years out of his 7 year reign. The key difference between a legend and a good sportsman is longevity and consistency.


Cool. We are looking at two different things then. :)

Over a career MS is head and shoulders better then his rivals. Can't be denied. He was a championship threat nearly every year for almost 1 and half decades as others came and went.

Head and shoulders better then his rivals in ability - as in put MS and anyone else as his team mate and MS would destroy them - then thats where I disagree. He was not clearly better then his rivals on any given Sunday.

Edited by Jazza, 17 July 2010 - 12:37.


#3522 SparkPlug

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Posted 17 July 2010 - 12:41

Cool. We are looking at two different things then. :)

Over a career MS is head and shoulders better then his rivals. Can't be denied. He was a championship threat nearly every year for almost 1 and half decades as others came and went.

Head shoulders better then his rivals in ability (as in put MS and anyone else as his team mate and MS would destroy them) then thats where I disagree.

Destroy is too strong a word, I agree with you on that. But whether or not Schumacher would have been able to beat Hakkinen,Hill or JV in the same car in 95-00 is something that can never be proven (for either side). I personally thought Barrichello would be a strong threat to Schumacher after his occasionally great performances in the Stewart, but Schumacher did blow him away. Its the same with Massa who after 2006 gave a tough fight to Raikkonen in their time together. However I do tend to believe that Hakkinen as Schumacher's teammate between 98-00 would have been very interesting indeed.

As I said, for me the definition of greatness is being able to produce the goods inside out year after year for a long time. Schumacher did that better than anyone else before or during his time (I am still optimistic Hamilton can do something similar in his career, but its too early to call)

#3523 arknor

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Posted 17 July 2010 - 12:59

Destroy is too strong a word, I agree with you on that. But whether or not Schumacher would have been able to beat Hakkinen,Hill or JV in the same car in 95-00 is something that can never be proven (for either side). I personally thought Barrichello would be a strong threat to Schumacher after his occasionally great performances in the Stewart, but Schumacher did blow him away. Its the same with Massa who after 2006 gave a tough fight to Raikkonen in their time together. However I do tend to believe that Hakkinen as Schumacher's teammate between 98-00 would have been very interesting indeed.

As I said, for me the definition of greatness is being able to produce the goods inside out year after year for a long time. Schumacher did that better than anyone else before or during his time (I am still optimistic Hamilton can do something similar in his career, but its too early to call)

im sure it would they were probably as fast as each other much closer than hamilton and button are look at the 1990 macau gp

#3524 SparkPlug

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Posted 17 July 2010 - 13:06

im sure it would they were probably as fast as each other much closer than hamilton and button are look at the 1990 macau gp

Hamilton and Button ? Naah, it would have been more like Hamilton Alonso I think... without the whining from either side though :p

#3525 aditya-now

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Posted 17 July 2010 - 13:13

Keep adding to your post count, one day you will reach 10,000 with "deep analysis" such as this


Ah, SparkPlug, you envie the post count of other members?

Keep posting your theories on Michael Schumacher, you´ll get there as well! ;)


#3526 aditya-now

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Posted 17 July 2010 - 13:16

Cool. We are looking at two different things then. :)

Over a career MS is head and shoulders better then his rivals. Can't be denied. He was a championship threat nearly every year for almost 1 and half decades as others came and went.


Yes, we are.

Throughout the season, MS is head and shoulders worse than his rivals. Can´t be denied. He was no threat to anyone but himself for most of the ten races he participated in as others came and conquered.


#3527 SparkPlug

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Posted 17 July 2010 - 13:24

Ah, SparkPlug, you envie the post count of other members?

Keep posting your theories on Michael Schumacher, you´ll get there as well! ;)

Ask around the forum a bit, I am not the one famous for making up theories on Michael Schumacher around here.
Envy someone else's post count ? Are you in 3rd grade ? :rotfl:

#3528 ForeverF1

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Posted 17 July 2010 - 13:27

Guys, please keep the debate about Michael Schumacher and not about other posters. Thanks.

#3529 Jazza

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Posted 17 July 2010 - 13:33

Yes, we are.

Throughout the season, MS is head and shoulders worse than his rivals. Can´t be denied. He was no threat to anyone but himself for most of the ten races he participated in as others came and conquered.

:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

On page 88 I'm all but called a shumi hater, now my posts are being reworded as if I'm some kind of shumi lover :p .

MS is having a horrible year by his standards, and is certainly no threat to this generation at the moment... but surely aditya-now you have to admit that over his career MS has shown himself to be awesomely talented? Yes he has been a dick (especially 94,97 championship showdowns, not to mention Monaco 06) and has spoken like a dick on too many occasions in his young day (as well as probably driven an illegal car for at least one season), but he is bloody good behind the wheel. I don't see how anyone can deny his driving abilities despite his character flaws.




#3530 arknor

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Posted 17 July 2010 - 13:41

Hamilton and Button ? Naah, it would have been more like Hamilton Alonso I think... without the whining from either side though :p

i meant much closer in race pace not how friendly they are!

although schumacher and hakkinen shared the odd moment in post race interviews

#3531 aditya-now

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Posted 17 July 2010 - 13:46

:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

On page 88 I'm all but called a shumi hater, now my posts are being reworded as if I'm some kind of shumi lover :p .


Wasn´t that the joke of the decade? ;)



I just could not resist....


MS is having a horrible year by his standards, and is certainly no threat to this generation at the moment... but surely aditya-now you have to admit that over his career MS has shown himself to be awesomely talented? Yes he has been a dick (especially 94,97 championship showdowns, not to mention Monaco 06) and has spoken like a dick on too many occasions in his young day (as well as probably driven an illegal car for at least one season), but he is bloody good behind the wheel. I don't see how anyone can deny his driving abilities despite his character flaws.


I could not have worded it better - that´s been exactly my stance for all those years :up:

#3532 cheapracer

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Posted 17 July 2010 - 13:54

has spoken like a dick on too many occasions in his young day

as well as probably driven an illegal car for at least one season,


I want the quotes, I keep asking and asking for the last 15+ years - I want the film, video or magazine articles thanks. I believe I have seen most of his 150+ podium interviews and I can't remember any bad words but I can remember Murray Walker telling more than one of his co-commentators off live for saying similar to you without foundation.

Prove it - mind you as Ken Tyrell once said (amongst others) "Oh we all cheat, some just do it better than others".

I'm guessing your refering to 1994, strange how a bunch of journo's were at a Ferrari testing session and heard the TC upon which the Ferrari test driver confirmed which led to 3 teams being asked to supply their blackboxes of which nothing could be proved. You can also review all the starts of MS for 94, nothing special stands out.

Don't you find it strange that TC is so obvious to the ear that journo's can hear it but no one including hundreds of techs and engineers ever said anything at the tracks? Oh except for one driver who's ego couldn't accept that someone was actually able to beat him - must have had a cheat car to do so in his mind.

#3533 cheapracer

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Posted 17 July 2010 - 13:58

http://www.orange.co...ulaone/6895.htm

Mika Hakkinen is backing Michael Schumacher to stay in F1 next season and turn into a world championship contender.

Schumacher has been criticised for his lack of pace at Mercedes since returning from a three-year lay-off, but two-time world champion Hakkinen, who pipped the German to world titles in 1998 and 1999, is confident his old foe will turn his form around.

"Formula 1 is never easy," Hakkinen told Orange, "even for the guys driving every season. But to do F1 after three seasons out is very, very hard. I'm sure Michael knew it would be this difficult and it looks like he has been struggling, but I don't think he'll struggle for long.

"For sure, the title looks impossible for Michael now but I would expect him to be racing at Mercedes again next season and an eighth world title is totally possible. I'd like to see him do it, I believe he can do it."

Schumacher's dire 2010 season reached a new low at last month's European Grand Prix where he finished a lowly 15th at the street circuit in Valencia.


It led to critics suggesting he should bring a premature end to his F1 comeback, but Hakkinen expects his former track rival to see out the three years of his current deal.

"I can't say I know Michael as a close friend but I know him as a racer and he was always super fast and super determined," he said. "I don't believe that's changed. Formula 1 has moved on a lot while he's been away and that takes time to get up to speed with.

"I see him suddenly, bam, winning a race and then winning, winning, winning. He always liked to prove people wrong and I expect him to prove people wrong some more."

Hakkinen, who at 41 is the same age as the seven-time world champion, said: "No way would I do that now. I have too much on my stomach to lose! And it's very hard, not just on the body but on the mind, on everything.

"I loved F1 and racing but it's a tough, tough job and I stopped at the right time. I don't feel I need to go back but I wish Michael all the best in what he's doing.


By the way and FWIW, Mika isn't British.

Edited by cheapracer, 17 July 2010 - 13:59.


#3534 Jazza

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Posted 17 July 2010 - 14:12

I want the quotes, I keep asking and asking for the last 15+ years - I want the film, video or magazine articles thanks. I believe I have seen most of his 150+ podium interviews and I can't remember any bad words but I can remember Murray Walker telling more than one of his co-commentators off live for saying similar to you without foundation.

Prove it - mind you as Ken Tyrell once said (amongst others) "Oh we all cheat, some just do it better than others".

I'm guessing your refering to 1994, strange how a bunch of journo's were at a Ferrari testing session and heard the TC upon which the Ferrari test driver confirmed which led to 3 teams being asked to supply their blackboxes of which nothing could be proved. You can also review all the starts of MS for 94, nothing special stands out.

Don't you find it strange that TC is so obvious to the ear that journo's can hear it but no one including hundreds of techs and engineers ever said anything at the tracks? Oh except for one driver who's ego couldn't accept that someone was actually able to beat him - must have had a cheat car to do so in his mind.


Speaking like a dick? Twice claiming that two drivers where trying to kill him (Even saying Damon should just "get a gun" in one of those 150 press conferences), as well as plenty of trash talk through 94 and 95. He cleaned his act up massively at Ferrari through his championship years, but he was not so gracious when he was in his 20's.

Probable illegal car? Yeah 94. Maybe even sometime at Ferrari with his "We have something like traction control, but it is not traction control" comment. Didn't say that he did have an Illegal car, but 94 looks rather bad (And the big guys Like Flav and Walkinshaw since then have not exactly shown them selves to be fair players).

#3535 dav115

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Posted 17 July 2010 - 14:13

Put anyone in a car that has a massive advantage over the rest and they'll dominate.

Before 2009, Jenson was crap and nobody wanted to sign him for 2009. Yet, Jenson had the most dominate 1st half of the season ever in the history of F1, not even MS was that dominate :wave:

How about 2004 when he was on track to win 13 races in a ROW except Montoya nerfed him in the tunnel at Monaco behind the safety car?

Edited by dav115, 17 July 2010 - 14:16.


#3536 aditya-now

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Posted 17 July 2010 - 14:36

I want the quotes, I keep asking and asking for the last 15+ years - I want the film, video or magazine articles thanks. I believe I have seen most of his 150+ podium interviews and I can't remember any bad words but I can remember Murray Walker telling more than one of his co-commentators off live for saying similar to you without foundation.

Prove it - mind you as Ken Tyrell once said (amongst others) "Oh we all cheat, some just do it better than others".


So in your words Schumi was just better in speaking like a dick than others, getting caught less often and having had influential promoters like Murray Walker on the PR side (like the FIA on the political side)....

Yes, cheapracer, it´s a fact, in his German mother tongue Schumi has spoken many times most arrogantly and gained many "fans" not only in Germany, but particularily in Austria, where it is a matter of not taking Schumacher serious at all.

Also the term "Schummel-Schumi" has not come into existence by coincidence, it is to this day a synonym for all that we love so much in Schumi.
Well, you are lucky, living in Hong Kong, not being exposed to the more plain aspects of Schumachers character. Indeed, he comes across better in English than in German.

I am sure this is not what you´d like to acknowledge, cheap, you are a fan(atic) of him, you only see what you like to see about him.


#3537 aditya-now

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Posted 17 July 2010 - 14:47

How about 2004 when he was on track to win 13 races in a ROW except Montoya nerfed him in the tunnel at Monaco behind the safety car?


That would have been a record to the end of time, to win 13 races.

Yet the prove is not there that he would indeed have defeated Jarno Trulli...
not in Monaco, not with a hard-to-overtake Trulli, after whom the famous Trulli-train has been named later.

Another myth by the Schumacher-worshippers... :lol:


#3538 Fabs

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Posted 17 July 2010 - 16:17

How about 2004 when he was on track to win 13 races in a ROW except Montoya nerfed him in the tunnel at Monaco behind the safety car?


This has to be one of the most OVERRATED dominating performance EVER

Schumacher won 12 out of 13.

Barrichello, an average driver, scored 7 2nd places out of 13 (all of them behind Schumi).. which means that if he was the FIRST driver and racing with a Nakajima as 2nd driver, he would have won 7 out of the first 13 GPs.. which would be one of the MOST dominating stretches ever by a driver

7 wins is how many Rubens would have gotten without Schumacher competing.. you never know if he would have gotten 8, 9 or 10 if he also had first driver treatment.. received updates and the better strategy

That's how good that Ferrari was..

Not taking anything away from Michael.. but he thrived under circumstances that ANY great driver would have thrived.. that's why there are some drivers that are better than their record shows.. and some that are not as good as their record shows.. .Michael belongs to the latter

Edited by Fabs, 17 July 2010 - 16:18.


#3539 SparkPlug

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Posted 17 July 2010 - 16:27

This has to be one of the most OVERRATED dominating performance EVER

Schumacher won 12 out of 13.

Barrichello, an average driver, scored 7 2nd places out of 13 (all of them behind Schumi).. which means that if he was the FIRST driver and racing with a Nakajima as 2nd driver, he would have won 7 out of the first 13 GPs.. which would be one of the MOST dominating stretches ever by a driver

7 wins is how many Rubens would have gotten without Schumacher competing.. you never know if he would have gotten 8, 9 or 10 if he also had first driver treatment.. received updates and the better strategy

That's how good that Ferrari was..

Not taking anything away from Michael.. but he thrived under circumstances that ANY great driver would have thrived.. that's why there are some drivers that are better than their record shows.. and some that are not as good as their record shows.. .Michael belongs to the latter

Prove why you think someone else is better than Michael instead of saying his record flatters him.

He won everything when he had the best car, how does this prove he is not as good as his record ? What do you want him to do ? Get more than 12 wins out of 13 ?

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#3540 Beyond

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Posted 17 July 2010 - 16:27

your point? also button had the best car by far in the first half of last champ

#3541 Fabs

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Posted 17 July 2010 - 16:33

Prove why you think someone else is better than Michael instead of saying his record flatters him.

He won everything when he had the best car, how does this prove he is not as good as his record ? What do you want him to do ? Get more than 12 wins out of 13 ?


No.. I am just saying that Michael is not as good as 91 wins and 66 poles indicates

Imagine if Button was lucky enough to keep that Brawn dominating car for 6 full seasons

Button retires with 75 wins and 50 poles... ok.. he did his job

Someone would think he is better than Prost, Senna, Clark or Alonso... but it is clear that he is not as good as those stats shows.. the stats are inflated by a benefic circumstance.. the fact that he raced alone in a dominating car for a very long period of time

Someone who actually understands F1 would put these inflated numbers in perspective.. and give credit to Jenson for getting the job done with a MONSTER car.. but would know he is not the ultragenious the numbers seem to suggest

Edited by Fabs, 17 July 2010 - 16:33.


#3542 AlainProstX

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Posted 17 July 2010 - 16:35

If you want to include Rosberg and Hamilton success then they don't even rate on the chart yet but thats silly isn't it?

Alonso's success also doesn't rate very high in comparison even all 3 combined doesn't reach halfway but you believe what you want to.

Lets take say Alonso, Mika, Kimi, Hill and JV together, easily MS's main combatants and add their scores and they about match MS's score combined.

Shit MS was a lucky chap :rotfl:



Yeah, and you know what?

Alonso had only 1 WDC in 2006, Michael 7.
Which driver lost the WDC thanks to his rookie mistakes and his rascasse parking manouver, eventhough his car was slightly better over the season?

Oh, you like stats, right?

Maybe you should compare Michaels stats after 3,5 F1 seasons with Hamiltons after 3,5 f1 seasons. Lightyears difference. The briton has beaten a two times world champion in his rookie year (eventhough it was marginal), won the WDC against the superior Ferraris (+ FIA!) and is about to beat another world champion in the same car again this year.
Edit: We can go further too... No driver ever has scored more points then Hamilton in his first 3,5 seasons.

Edited by AlainProstX, 17 July 2010 - 16:38.


#3543 aditya-now

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Posted 17 July 2010 - 16:36

What do you want him to do ? Get more than 12 wins out of 13 ?


Get 13 wins out of 13 - but Michael did not manage to do so - even had Montoya not taken him out, he wouldn´t have overtaken Trulli. Trulli´s drive was supremely inspired.


#3544 Henrytheeigth

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Posted 17 July 2010 - 16:39

Ah if only Hamilton started his career in a back marker car like so many before him aye? :p

Edited by Henrytheeigth, 17 July 2010 - 16:39.


#3545 AlainProstX

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Posted 17 July 2010 - 16:41

He started his career alongside the maining 2xWDC Alonso, a driver who prefers Nr2 drivers as his teammates.

I guess thats hard enough. Maybe you should ask Piquet and Grosjean.


And yeah... Maybe he was lucky, but still he always proofed that he belongs into a top team.

#3546 Henrytheeigth

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Posted 17 July 2010 - 16:41

He started his career alongside the maining 2xWDC Alonso, a driver who prefers Nr2 drivers as his teammates.

I guess thats hard enough. Maybe you should ask Piquet and Grosjean.


And yeah... Maybe he was lucky, but still he always proofed that he belongs into a top team.


I guess we shall never know...coz look at last year when his car was a dog, so was he lol

Edited by Henrytheeigth, 17 July 2010 - 16:42.


#3547 Diablobb81

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Posted 17 July 2010 - 16:42

Imagine if Button was lucky enough to keep that Brawn dominating car for 6 full seasons


But Schumachers records don't come from having a dominating car in 2004 and then keeping that car dominating for 6 seasons. So your comparison is faulty.

Also you are suggesting the fact that the Ferrari was so good came down to luck. That's simply ignoring the reality.

"Maybe you should compare Michaels stats after 3,5 F1 seasons with Hamiltons after 3,5 f1 seasons."

Maybe we should wait to compare after 15 seasons.

I do believe that right now Lewis is the only one that has a chance to come close to Schumi in overall stats. I'm sure the best is still to come from him.

"Which driver lost the WDC thanks to his rookie mistakes and his rascasse parking manouver, eventhough his car was slightly better over the season?

We can say that about Alonso and Hamilton too.So why just use moments and seasons that suit your pov?

Edited by Diablobb81, 17 July 2010 - 16:44.


#3548 Birelman

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Posted 17 July 2010 - 16:42

Can you be 100 % shore that this is the case what if Schumacher was so better than the rest that the gap to the front runners was smaller than normal so the car looked much better than it was.

Because I know a thing or two about racing and no driver is THAT much faster than another.

#3549 Fabs

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Posted 17 July 2010 - 16:46

People have to learn how to put things in perspective.. sheer numbers dont reflect the reality of an era.. because eras have different levels of competition, depth, talent, rules, etc

I will make a football analogy

Just Fontaine scored 13 goals in the 1958 World Cup

Ronaldo during his prime.. scored 4 goals in 1998.. and 8 goals in 2002..

So who was better at their prime? Some stupid who doesnt ACTUALLY watch the game could claim that it is Just Fontaine.. because he scored more goals in one world cup than Ronaldo scored in two world cups combined

But if you know how to put things in perspective, you will know that DEFENSE was almost non-existent in 1958 and it was not uncommom for matches to finish 5-2, 4-4 or 5-3.

In fact, the average goal per match in 1954 was above 5 goals.. while in 2010 it was 2,25

So you JUST KNOW that a goal today is harder to score than it was in 1954 or 1958

And you just know by watching F1 that a win in the 70s or the 80s was much more difficult to get.. you had reliability problems, more depth, less GPs per season, more quality drivers, more teams contending for wins and less 2nd driver duties. Plus, less technology so one little mistake while leading in the best car would still cost you a win.

That is why MS stats are inflated.. not saying he isnt a top 5 driver ever.. he is just the Wilt Chamberlain of F1.. a guy who padded stats in the right era

Edited by Fabs, 17 July 2010 - 16:51.


#3550 SparkPlug

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Posted 17 July 2010 - 16:47

No.. I am just saying that Michael is not as good as 91 wins and 66 poles indicates

Imagine if Button was lucky enough to keep that Brawn dominating car for 6 full seasons

Button retires with 75 wins and 50 poles... ok.. he did his job

Someone would think he is better than Prost, Senna, Clark or Alonso... but it is clear that he is not as good as those stats shows.. the stats are inflated by a benefic circumstance.. the fact that he raced alone in a dominating car for a very long period of time

Someone who actually understands F1 would put these inflated numbers in perspective.. and give credit to Jenson for getting the job done with a MONSTER car.. but would know he is not the ultragenious the numbers seem to suggest

You cant say for sure that Button would have won 75 races and had 50 poles as a fact, that is mere speculation from your side.
Also, I will agree with you when you say about stats, that Schumacher's stats do not prove him to be double the driver Prost or Senna were merely by having (more than) double the number of wins. However factually, it does prove him to be the more winninger driver in comparison, and thus better.

But his stats(or anyone else's), or nearly another other source of information you can bring up, comprehensively fail to prove that he is not better than them either.

Very simply put, one can maybe prove that he is better than other drivers in F1's history, but you cant prove that he isnt better than them. Its only opinion and speculation that are at work there.