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#4001 chrisblades85

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 22:20

At the moment. I don't know whether I'd have more respect if he carried on for next year or just came out and held his hands up and say "You know what, I gave it a go, but I think I should leave it for the younger guys"



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#4002 Nitropower

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 22:27

I wouldn't have any respect for him either way. Today he has shown his ambition is beyond the value of life. We already knew he can try any dirty trick to win, just ask Heinz-Harald Frentzen, Damon Hill, Jacques Villeneuve, La Rascasse, Rubens etc.

The penalty is short for his action. It could've ended in a tragedy. The guy was competitive and a winner, but always had the best team behind and the best car, by miles sometimes. His wins have a great value anyway, but his behaviour as a competitor and a sportsman shows what he is made of. He won't ever apologize for anything, he is always right. I think there is some loose bolt in his head and he should go back home because he's got over the hill.

#4003 jimm

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 22:39

Schumacher was good at his some races in 1991 and in the seasons of 1992 & 1993, when there was even no refueling. Well, different cars, different tyres than today, but generally you can´t say: "Michael isn`t good, because there is no refueling".

Michael Schumacher was 3 years away from professional motorsport, a very long time and he isn´t getting younger. It was a completely new Formula One for him. New regs, New tyres, no testing during the season and a car which he doesn´t favour - Not the greatest basis for a comeback after a long break! Well, i don´t think, that he´s a stupid guy. He wouldn´t have start a comeback, if he has any doubts about things, like no refueling or testing and so on. He is still fighting for Project 8 and i hope he will become success. He had a three years contract with Mercedes, next year he´s definitely in the grid. Possibly we are going to see another Michael Schumacher in 2011. I hope so.

Good luck, Michael!!!



He had 2 wins, one of which was a striaght up win against Prost who was trying to clinch a WDC and settled for second....the other was a lottery race in the rain.

His competitive era started when refueling ment more tire changes and the former frontrunners of Mansell, Prost, Senna had either died or left the sport. (yes I know he won the one race that Senna finished in 1994).

If you look through this thread, I defended him early as it is hard to comeback but I think it is clear now that he has had enough time to adjust and is just no getting it done. He has become frustrated and one of the outcomes is the BS driving like today. Time to go back home and enjoy his billion dollars.

Right now it is like watching Jordan with the Wizards or Mike Tyson fighing Hollyfield. He is past it and the only one that can't admit it are him and his blind fans.

#4004 MikeTekRacing

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 22:51

He won't ever apologize for anything, he is always right. I think there is some loose bolt in his head and he should go back home because he's got over the hill.

yeap, and other drivers apologize and never take us as fools.
care to read the press conference from last week?

#4005 Birelman

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 23:42

He had 2 wins, one of which was a striaght up win against Prost who was trying to clinch a WDC and settled for second....the other was a lottery race in the rain.

His competitive era started when refueling ment more tire changes and the former frontrunners of Mansell, Prost, Senna had either died or left the sport. (yes I know he won the one race that Senna finished in 1994).

If you look through this thread, I defended him early as it is hard to comeback but I think it is clear now that he has had enough time to adjust and is just no getting it done. He has become frustrated and one of the outcomes is the BS driving like today. Time to go back home and enjoy his billion dollars.

Right now it is like watching Jordan with the Wizards or Mike Tyson fighing Hollyfield. He is past it and the only one that can't admit it are him and his blind fans.

I agree with this almost to the letter.

Without saying MS sux, or anything of the sorts, I mean, lets not kid ourselves, the man can drive. But, had there not ever been any re-fueling, and while I do believe he would have been a multi times champion, he wouldn't have been 7 times champion, at least I don't think so. I think re-fueling fitted him like a glove, and he and Ross and the gang became experts at it before the other teams even understood how it really worked. It also played into his 94 Benetton with the smaller engine to the Williams's he obviously had to run less fuel in stints, so, the car was more nimble during stints, and fuel stops were shorter, among other stuff.

Edited by Birelman, 01 August 2010 - 23:44.


#4006 man

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 23:55

I agree with this almost to the letter.

Without saying MS sux, or anything of the sorts, I mean, lets not kid ourselves, the man can drive. But, had there not ever been any re-fueling, and while I do believe he would have been a multi times champion, he wouldn't have been 7 times champion, at least I don't think so. I think re-fueling fitted him like a glove, and he and Ross and the gang became experts at it before the other teams even understood how it really worked. It also played into his 94 Benetton with the smaller engine to the Williams's he obviously had to run less fuel in stints, so, the car was more nimble during stints, and fuel stops were shorter, among other stuff.


Re Benetton 1994.. Illegal fuel rigs which meant shorter pitstop times etc etc

Edited by man, 01 August 2010 - 23:56.


#4007 Birelman

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Posted 02 August 2010 - 00:16

Re Benetton 1994.. Illegal fuel rigs which meant shorter pitstop times etc etc

Well, I tried to avoid those lol


#4008 man

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Posted 02 August 2010 - 00:34

Well, I tried to avoid those lol


Oh yes... Sorry my mistake. Let's just forget it.;)

#4009 marchi-91

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Posted 02 August 2010 - 01:25

Where exactly has all the speed gone, though? Is it simply just an age thing, or what?

Beeing out of the sport for three years doesn't help but I believe Schumacher was so successful because he could test endlessly and get the car to suit him perfectly and having a teammate who had to adapt to his car preferences and not beeing able to compete with him on an equal base.

Also having Todt, Brawn and Byrne in Ferrari along with the biggest budget in the sport doesn't hurt. The guy was always a good driver but not necessarely faster than some of his main competitors during his golden era.

I think we are seeing his true potential in this era of F1, with him perhaps losing a little bit of the speed he once had.

A possible eight title? Not in a million years.

Beating Rosberg next year? Highly unlikely (unless he gets a car that doesn't suit Rosberg at all).

Winning a race in F1 again? Perhaps.

Retiring after this season? Hopefully!


You don't think that Redbull suits Vettel???
You don't think that Brawn suited Button???
You don't think the Ferrari suits Alonso????
You don't think the McLaren suits Hamilton???
You don't think that Williams suits Rubens???
You don't think that Renault suits Kubica????

All of these drivers have a car that is tailored made to their driving style. They are the definitive lead drivers for each of their teams. You cannot win the WDC in a car that is not tailored to your driving style in this modern age. Michael and Nico are pushing around a car tailored for Button, with the former 3 years out. It doesn't take half a clue to put two and two together to realize why it is he's struggling. Even then, Michael was the one with brake issues yesterday but again, that gets overlooked because it wasn't a damning issue...... For all of you that can string it together, would have noticed that Nico was incredibly slow yesterday. In clean air he was 6 tenths a lap slower then Michael in that first stint. He was the car with the massive train behind him, not Petrov.

#4010 Raelene

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Posted 02 August 2010 - 01:37

I agree with this almost to the letter.

Without saying MS sux, or anything of the sorts, I mean, lets not kid ourselves, the man can drive. But, had there not ever been any re-fueling, and while I do believe he would have been a multi times champion, he wouldn't have been 7 times champion, at least I don't think so. [b]I think re-fueling fitted him like a glove, and he and Ross and the gang became experts at it before the other teams even understood how it really worked. [b] It also played into his 94 Benetton with the smaller engine to the Williams's he obviously had to run less fuel in stints, so, the car was more nimble during stints, and fuel stops were shorter, among other stuff.

Surely you should applaud him for that....same rules for everyokne and he mastered it!!

but then again, I see you only come into threads to bash MS....do you actually particpate in any other threads or just troll?

#4011 Birelman

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Posted 02 August 2010 - 01:45

Surely you should applaud him for that....same rules for everyokne and he mastered it!!

but then again, I see you only come into threads to bash MS....do you actually particpate in any other threads or just troll?

I don't think I said anything bad about him with my post, only that I believe he excelled in the regs that were in during his generation. I still said he can drive, and I do think he would have been multi times champion, just, maybe not 7. That's not so bad, is it? :)

I enjoy discussing drivers, I also write in the Alonso, Hamilton, Vettel, and others's threads. MS just has a lot more participation usually.

#4012 jimm

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Posted 02 August 2010 - 02:12

Surely you should applaud him for that....same rules for everyokne and he mastered it!!

but then again, I see you only come into threads to bash MS....do you actually particpate in any other threads or just troll?



Raelene,

Usually only see you and Sean in Schumacher threads on the 'pro' side.....kind of makes you a fanboy (well girl).

You do have to admit, MS's competitiveness had an up swing after fuel stops came in...and he was always one of the first to stop for tires before and sometimes stopped when others did not need to, and in the only season since then with no tire stops, he suffered (yes bridgestone made a bad tire but it is common knowledge they tailor made the tires for Ferrari).

#4013 Raelene

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Posted 02 August 2010 - 02:43

Raelene,

Usually only see you and Sean in Schumacher threads on the 'pro' side.....kind of makes you a fanboy (well girl).

You do have to admit, MS's competitiveness had an up swing after fuel stops came in...and he was always one of the first to stop for tires before and sometimes stopped when others did not need to, and in the only season since then with no tire stops, he suffered (yes bridgestone made a bad tire but it is common knowledge they tailor made the tires for Ferrari).



umm, differnce between being a fan and being a troll??!! I've been around here since 1999 and I've had opinions on a number of drivers...I dokn't just spend all my time bashing one - I'm an equal opportunity basher....

I don't get the point of your post - so he was able to better, than anyone else - execute strategies with the new rules - how does that mean he would never have made 7 titles - no one knows.

I guess you'd also agree that he got better with experience over that period???

#4014 Disgrace

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Posted 02 August 2010 - 02:46

I was actually starting to warm up to Michael this year given his seemingly humble approach to the season. But actions speak louder than words. His matter is no different on the track, however, he is now appallingly slow. As of Hungary 2010, I am convinced that he will never win an F1 race again.

#4015 baddog

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Posted 02 August 2010 - 02:55

I dont see how he was all that slow in this race by the way. He seemed a little slow at the start (and reported spongy brakes) but seemed to settle in to a pace matching all other drivers around him. Didnt see Jenson in a Mac even eating him up. Rubens passed him because of the tyre change, but thats kind of irrelevant.

Michael is clearly running at normal F1 speeds, and to talk of 'appallingly slow' and 'moving roadblock' and such nonsense is foolish in the extreme.

#4016 Stibbich

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Posted 02 August 2010 - 02:56

He had 2 wins, one of which was a striaght up win against Prost who was trying to clinch a WDC and settled for second....the other was a lottery race in the rain.


Schumacher finished 17 times on podium in 1992 & 1993. Not bad for man, "who isn´t good when there is no refueling in Formula One", according to some users. He would have fight for the championship in these seasons, if Benetton had an equal car compared to the Williams. It´s totally bullshit that he ist only good, when there is refueling.

Michael is over 40 years old and yes, the age plays an important role. He was 3 years way from professional motorsport, such a long time, maybe too long, but i don´t know. Since 2006, many things have changed, like the regs, the tyres, no testing and so on. He joined a new team, where he doesn´t know anybody, aside from Ross Brawn and maybe Norbert Haug. Schumacher stands for:

- Building a team around him.
- Develop a car, together with the team, which he favours.

The Mercedes was crap-car from the beginning. It was build for Jenson Button, who has a completely different driving style than Schumacher. Problems with the weight distribution, understeeringand so on. Well, they develop a B-Version, but all in all it was a weak base to start in the season.

Bahrain was okay
Australian was better, he was closter to Rosberg after Qualifying and had a brilliant start, until Alonso collided with him
Malaysia & China were really bad
In Spain, Monaco & Turkey, Schumi had a great perfomance, in would say. Very close to Rosberg or faster than thim
Canada, Europa (what a stupid strategy) & Great Britain were bad.
Germany was okay, very close to Rosberg
The weekend in Hungary was horrible

ManyUp & Downs for him. He has to learn a lot, about the behaviour of the car, the tyres, about no testing during the season and son. Don´t forget that even Pedro de la Rosa said, he needs a whole season to be competive. It is not so easy, as many people think, not even for a seven times World Champion like Schumacher. All in All, he didn´t perfom sooooo bad, if you regard all these points.

Mercedes put the focus on 2011, Brawn, Schumacher & Co. will make a good job, developing a car around him, a great car. You think Nico Rosberg is a better driver than Michael Schumacher? Well, you can believe it, but Schumacher is going to prove the opposite next year. Surely!

Edited by Stibbich, 02 August 2010 - 02:57.


#4017 Jimisgod

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Posted 02 August 2010 - 02:58

Schumacher should retire ASAP, he isn't even up to the standard of the second Renault and Williams drivers now who have the same level of experience in these 2010 cars. And that is with a faster car than them, too.

Obviously Schumi was fast in his youth, but his dominance was due to endless testing with a massive budget, well designed car and huge favouritism rather than being a spectacularly good driver.

#4018 jimm

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Posted 02 August 2010 - 03:08

umm, differnce between being a fan and being a troll??!! I've been around here since 1999 and I've had opinions on a number of drivers...I dokn't just spend all my time bashing one - I'm an equal opportunity basher....

I don't get the point of your post - so he was able to better, than anyone else - execute strategies with the new rules - how does that mean he would never have made 7 titles - no one knows.

I guess you'd also agree that he got better with experience over that period???


I know you have been around for a while as I remember you from the F1 news website (think that was the site) before it died.

Well, I see troll as someone who create arguements just to argue....Someone who is critical of MS or other F1 figure for justified reasons is just ..well, not a fan I guess..or critic.

My point was that he was hard on tires and had a harder time managing them before the frequent stops for tires were allowed for by refueling. I wasn't surprised he had a harder time in 2005 with the 1 weekend tire and not surprised he has had a harder time with the current rules...although for sure the layoff has not helped.

I think there are plenty of real things to be critical of MS for...today's move included. You also have to admit that if he were another driver based on this year's performance that his seat would be in question for next year (still might be).

At one time, I was a MS fan...early on and before the end 97.....That incident with all the others just did it for me and I was able to see him for what he is..a talented, cynical, non-sporting driver who does not care how he wins as long as he does win. All top F1 drivers flirt with this and occasionally cross the line but not to the extent he has and apparently does still. I was hoping the time off would have taken this part of his approach away but we see from today, it has not. I was actually happy to see him back and was, hoping to see him get back on form to see him fight the current crop....good potential for a great season. I was hoping he would find his form driving wise.....He has not recovered his speed, just his dirty driving tricks. I guess some were willing to overlook these tactics when he was winning....while fighting for 10th they just look desperate.

Think of it this way, had Petrov or one of the new drivers done this move, what would have been said about them?

Edited by jimm, 02 August 2010 - 03:15.


#4019 Birelman

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Posted 02 August 2010 - 03:09

Schumacher finished 17 times on podium in 1992 & 1993. Not bad for man, "who isn´t good when there is no refueling in Formula One", according to some users. He would have fight for the championship in these seasons, if Benetton had an equal car compared to the Williams. It´s totally bullshit that he ist only good, when there is refueling.

Michael is over 40 years old and yes, the age plays an important role. He was 3 years way from professional motorsport, such a long time, maybe too long, but i don´t know. Since 2006, many things have changed, like the regs, the tyres, no testing and so on. He joined a new team, where he doesn´t know anybody, aside from Ross Brawn and maybe Norbert Haug. Schumacher stands for:

- Building a team around him.
- Develop a car, together with the team, which he favours.

The Mercedes was crap-car from the beginning. It was build for Jenson Button, who has a completely different driving style than Schumacher. Problems with the weight distribution, understeeringand so on. Well, they develop a B-Version, but all in all it was a weak base to start in the season.

Bahrain was okay
Australian was better, he was closter to Rosberg after Qualifying and had a brilliant start, until Alonso collided with him
Malaysia & China were really bad
In Spain, Monaco & Turkey, Schumi had a great perfomance, in would say. Very close to Rosberg or faster than thim
Canada, Europa (what a stupid strategy) & Great Britain were bad.
Germany was okay, very close to Rosberg
The weekend in Hungary was horrible

ManyUp & Downs for him. He has to learn a lot, about the behaviour of the car, the tyres, about no testing during the season and son. Don´t forget that even Pedro de la Rosa said, he needs a whole season to be competive. It is not so easy, as many people think, not even for a seven times World Champion like Schumacher. All in All, he didn´t perfom sooooo bad, if you regard all these points.

Mercedes put the focus on 2011, Brawn, Schumacher & Co. will make a good job, developing a car around him, a great car. You think Nico Rosberg is a better driver than Michael Schumacher? Well, you can believe it, but Schumacher is going to prove the opposite next year. Surely!

I think you misunderstood the point. Point is that re-fueling fitted Schumacher like a glove, and he excelled at it. Had there not been re-fueling ever, it is our belief that there's a big possibility that he would not have been AS successful as he was. Multi times champion for sure, but, maybe, just maybe not 7 times. I personally base this on a lot of studying of his driving style and so on, not on results and woulda, coulda, shoulda. It's merely an opinion.

There's a big difference in that and saying he was no good in the no-refueling era.

Edited by Birelman, 02 August 2010 - 03:10.


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#4020 Jimmy

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Posted 02 August 2010 - 03:18

You don't think that Redbull suits Vettel???
You don't think that Brawn suited Button???
You don't think the Ferrari suits Alonso????
You don't think the McLaren suits Hamilton???
You don't think that Williams suits Rubens???
You don't think that Renault suits Kubica????

All of these drivers have a car that is tailored made to their driving style.


Not really. The cars are all tailor made to go fast, first and foremost, using the best known laws of science by the designers and engineers.

The drivers earn their money by making the most of what they have. Obviously driver preference comes into play with set-up changes they are allowed to make but generally the best drivers are usually the ones that harbour the most versatility.

The big advantage that Schumacher used to enjoy, when he was with Ferrari, was that he could go and pound around Mugello or Fiorano and try everything under the sun to get on top of any issues he had with the car. He doesn't have that luxury anymore.

Edited by Jimmy, 02 August 2010 - 03:24.


#4021 Birelman

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Posted 02 August 2010 - 03:22

Not really. The cars are all taylor made to go fast, first and foremost, using the best known laws of science by the designers and engineers.

The drivers earn their money by making the most of what they have. Obviously driver preference comes into play with set-up changes they are allowed to make but generally the best drivers are usually the ones that harbour the most versatility.

The big advantage that Schumacher used to enjoy, when he was with Ferrari, was that he could go and pound around Mugello or Fiorano and try everything under the sun to get on top of any issues he had with the car. He doesn't have that luxury anymore.

He also had a very unique driving style. Many other drivers not used to driving a car like that could find it a nightmare to drive around in

#4022 jimm

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Posted 02 August 2010 - 03:29

Schumacher finished 17 times on podium in 1992 & 1993. Not bad for man, "who isn´t good when there is no refueling in Formula One", according to some users. He would have fight for the championship in these seasons, if Benetton had an equal car compared to the Williams. It´s totally bullshit that he ist only good, when there is refueling.

Michael is over 40 years old and yes, the age plays an important role. He was 3 years way from professional motorsport, such a long time, maybe too long, but i don´t know. Since 2006, many things have changed, like the regs, the tyres, no testing and so on. He joined a new team, where he doesn´t know anybody, aside from Ross Brawn and maybe Norbert Haug. Schumacher stands for:

- Building a team around him.
- Develop a car, together with the team, which he favours.

The Mercedes was crap-car from the beginning. It was build for Jenson Button, who has a completely different driving style than Schumacher. Problems with the weight distribution, understeeringand so on. Well, they develop a B-Version, but all in all it was a weak base to start in the season.

Bahrain was okay
Australian was better, he was closter to Rosberg after Qualifying and had a brilliant start, until Alonso collided with him
Malaysia & China were really bad
In Spain, Monaco & Turkey, Schumi had a great perfomance, in would say. Very close to Rosberg or faster than thim
Canada, Europa (what a stupid strategy) & Great Britain were bad.
Germany was okay, very close to Rosberg
The weekend in Hungary was horrible

ManyUp & Downs for him. He has to learn a lot, about the behaviour of the car, the tyres, about no testing during the season and son. Don´t forget that even Pedro de la Rosa said, he needs a whole season to be competive. It is not so easy, as many people think, not even for a seven times World Champion like Schumacher. All in All, he didn´t perfom sooooo bad, if you regard all these points.

Mercedes put the focus on 2011, Brawn, Schumacher & Co. will make a good job, developing a car around him, a great car. You think Nico Rosberg is a better driver than Michael Schumacher? Well, you can believe it, but Schumacher is going to prove the opposite next year. Surely!



Hmmm.... when Schumacher joined Benneton, they had won, on average 1 race/yr and were, on average, the 3rd to 4th best team depending. In 1991, Ferrari was in the beginning of thier fall off that lasted until the Byrne and Brawn years, and Mclaren soon fell back a bit after Honda switched to the fuel hungery and unreliable v12, so it is not a surprise that Benetton was more competitive. Still, they had 1 race win/yr until refueling started. No doubt the car and team was better in 1993..espeically toward the end, and that they were a great car in 1994 but MS's driving style was helped by the "sprint" format of the refueling era. Add to that, all the major talent in F1 that had dominated the sport for a decade was eliminated by death or retirement.

It was a happy convergence of several things for MS but a component of this was the switch to short lived tires meaning that MS was free to abuse them all he needed.

As to next year, if he is still driving, I doubt he will beat Rosberg over a season regardless of circumstances. There is not alot of testing but he has driven 11 races under the current formula. If he was going to get better, it would have happend by now.

#4023 Jimmy

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Posted 02 August 2010 - 03:35

He also had a very unique driving style. Many other drivers not used to driving a car like that could find it a nightmare to drive around in


This was true back in the Benetton days, Schumacher got a lot more out of them than his team mates, or Berger and Alesi when they took over in 96.

Schumacher was unquestionably a better driver than Hill, Coulthard, Herbert, Verstappen, Berger and Alesi... But it must also be accepted that this was a weak era.

When you look at the greatest Boxers of all time, the first question is always: "who did they beat"?

A great champion must have a great challenger.

Statistics would suggest Rocky Marciano is greater than Muhammad Ali but you'll find very few educated Boxing pundits that would agree with that.

#4024 jimm

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Posted 02 August 2010 - 03:50

This was true back in the Benetton days, Schumacher got a lot more out of them than his team mates, or Berger and Alesi when they took over in 96.

Schumacher was unquestionably a better driver than Hill, Coulthard, Herbert, Verstappen, Berger and Alesi... But it must also be accepted that this was a weak era.

When you look at the greatest Boxers of all time, the first question is always: "who did they beat"?

A great champion must have a great challenger.

Statistics would suggest Rocky Marciano is greater than Muhammad Ali but you'll find very few educated Boxing pundits that would agree with that.



Agree with this. Was telling someone else that this year the guys at the top of the order are driving at a very high level. Really, the whole field is pretty deep and most of the major talent is in good equipement. The only guys not on par are probably Kubica and Sutil who both are struggling with up and down equipment.

#4025 Raelene

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Posted 02 August 2010 - 04:22

think there are plenty of real things to be critical of MS for...today's move included


agree I have been critical - Monaco, Jerez, and others. In fact I even said he deserved a penalty for this incident.,..but I guess you missed that

Has MS been out too lokng and past it - looks like it. I think if next year his performance is at a similar level say 1/4 way through the season, then he should go. I don't think what is happening now in anyway diminishes his prior accomplishments.

a troll is someone that just comes into a thread to cause trouble/bash - sorry, but that is what birelman and man are doing - trolling - have a look at the main threads they post in - they are only here to bash, not to discuss.

Edited by Raelene, 02 August 2010 - 04:27.


#4026 ivand911

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Posted 02 August 2010 - 06:41

Schumacher should retire ASAP, he isn't even up to the standard of the second Renault and Williams drivers now who have the same level of experience in these 2010 cars. And that is with a faster car than them, too.

Obviously Schumi was fast in his youth, but his dominance was due to endless testing with a massive budget, well designed car and huge favouritism rather than being a spectacularly good driver.

In this moment Renault and Williams have faster car that MGP. Maybe they are better in last 2-3 races, from Valencia I think. And they will become even better, Renault wait big updates for Spa, Williams have EBD and F-duct that work. MGP F-duct is only for laugh.

#4027 Nitropower

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Posted 02 August 2010 - 06:55

yeap, and other drivers apologize and never take us as fools.
care to read the press conference from last week?


Please stick to the topic, which is Michael Schumacher, and in this case, his latest actions. Even if you don't like someone else. Otherwise it looks like throwing a tantrum.

What Schumacher did is just disgusting, if at least he said sorry and admitted it could've turned into a serious accident, it'd be better. But he stays as if nothing wrong had happened. Please do not bring in Ferrari team orders to divert attention from Michael Schumacher Sunday actions.

#4028 britishtrident

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Posted 02 August 2010 - 06:57

This was true back in the Benetton days, Schumacher got a lot more out of them than his team mates, or Berger and Alesi when they took over in 96.

Schumacher was unquestionably a better driver than Hill, Coulthard, Herbert, Verstappen, Berger and Alesi... But it must also be accepted that this was a weak era.

When you look at the greatest Boxers of all time, the first question is always: "who did they beat"?

A great champion must have a great challenger.

Statistics would suggest Rocky Marciano is greater than Muhammad Ali but you'll find very few educated Boxing pundits that would agree with that.


He was so much better than his Benetton team mate Brundle that he found it necessary to nerf him off the track to pass him.
Herbert we will never know how great he might have been as with most of the British drivers of the Thatcher era because of the state of British industry he had trouble getting sponsorship, as a result a string of promising British drivers got their drives pinched from under them for economic reasons.



#4029 ivand911

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Posted 02 August 2010 - 07:01

Please stick to the topic, which is Michael Schumacher, and in this case, his latest actions. Even if you don't like someone else. Otherwise it looks like throwing a tantrum.

What Schumacher did is just disgusting, if at least he said sorry and admitted it could've turned into a serious accident, it'd be better. But he stays as if nothing wrong had happened. Please do not bring in Ferrari team orders to divert attention from Michael Schumacher Sunday actions.

For accident are needed two people(to say equaly "stupid" people). They were there and ready to play. What you expect when no one want to lift his foot. But this is not the thread for what happen on Sunday.


#4030 MikeTekRacing

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Posted 02 August 2010 - 08:21

Please stick to the topic, which is Michael Schumacher, and in this case, his latest actions. Even if you don't like someone else. Otherwise it looks like throwing a tantrum.

no, it shows double standards from you
both of them are pricks and pretty much all races are, obviously to a different degree and in different situations

the fact you only see one of them as being so is a problem.

#4031 Muz Bee

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Posted 02 August 2010 - 08:46

For all of you that can string it together, would have noticed that Nico was incredibly slow yesterday. In clean air he was 6 tenths a lap slower then Michael in that first stint. He was the car with the massive train behind him, not Petrov.

You're making it up. I have looked at the FIA lapcharts and Michael was NOT faster than Nico during the race. The reverse in fact - during the period after the initial sort out (first 2-3 laps) Nico's gap to Michael went from 5 seconds to 10 seconds prior to the safety car and only on lap 9 did Michael set a quicker lap. And Nico apparently didn't abuse the brakes and I would have a guess, kept his tyres in better condition if previous races are a fair indication.

It's hilarious being fed these nonsense stories and theories by the Schumistis. Total rubbish, give Michael another 6 races and he'll probably be a full second off Nico's pace. Nico was admittedly only on track for 3 or 4 points but he's still the one who's doing the business - not yesterday man. Get over it, he's a has-been.

Edited by Muz Bee, 02 August 2010 - 09:00.


#4032 ivand911

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Posted 02 August 2010 - 10:07

Front tyres design hurting Schumacher
http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/85823

#4033 as65p

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Posted 02 August 2010 - 10:21

Front tyres design hurting Schumacher
http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/85823


Good find, it's all in those two sentences:

"I think Nico, as part of the evolution of the tyres, is very skilled and very talented at using the tyres.

I don't think Michael has quite worked out how to get the best from these tyres."


Just what we are seeing all year, Rosberg being better than Schumacher (v2).

#4034 ivand911

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Posted 02 August 2010 - 10:27

Good find, it's all in those two sentences:

"I think Nico, as part of the evolution of the tyres, is very skilled and very talented at using the tyres.

I don't think Michael has quite worked out how to get the best from these tyres."


Just what we are seeing all year, Rosberg being better than Schumacher (v2).

I see only what we all say for long time. Nico have advantage to be part of tyre evolution and he know tyres better. And Michael still don't know how to use tyres. Because on different tracks they have different tyres(compounds) every time. What he can use for comparison?

#4035 as65p

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Posted 02 August 2010 - 10:30

I see only what we all say for long time. Nico have advantage to be part of tyre evolution and he know tyres better. And Michael still don't know how to use tyres. Because on different tracks they have different tyres(compounds) every time. What he can use for comparison?


Good excuse for the first three races, at most. If a driver, any driver, hasn't figured how to get the best out of his equipment after 10 races, he's usually considered out of his depth in any kind od racing series.

#4036 Gareth

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Posted 02 August 2010 - 10:32

Please stick to the topic of Michael Schumacher and stop discussing each other.

Thanks

#4037 BRK

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Posted 02 August 2010 - 10:46

Why was Button struggling with handling yesterday while Hamilton had fewer issues? Tyres,of course. Why is Massa struggling to match his teammate's form this year? Tyres. Doesn't pay to have a driving style similar to that of Michael Schumacher. Why has Rosberg outperformed Michael this season? Surprise-TYRES: he's had a entire friggin' year to understand them. Rosberg's engineering degree also gives him an edge over Michael,I suppose. :well:

Tyres,tyres,tyres....all there is to it. Get a degree in tyre technology and the world is at your feet.

#4038 alfiebengal

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Posted 02 August 2010 - 10:49

I have a theory that might or might not have been put forward before but the way everything on this forum is so heavily merged means it's impossible to check as it means wading through 101 pages to find out. Sorry guys but that's my view/problem for what it's worth.

Anyway here's my theory.

Michael spent three years looking very bored on the Ferrari pit wall with nothing really to do. Michael doesn't seem to have any real interests outside F1. Ok he tried bikes but didn't really shine at that did he.

So there he is bored out of his brain and along comes Merc and offers him a shed load of money to race their car. Now any normal person would look at that offer and ask himself; does he need the money, patently no; have the cars changed, absolutely; might I have lost my edge, at his age and with that length of lay-off almost certainly; will being a failure affect my history, certainly yes but to Michael with his ego, no and does he really care anyway.

Here he is then, without taking true stock of what he's taking on and his arrogance telling him that he will dominate again, he thinks why not I'm bored and these people are daft enough to pay me to enjoy myself playing with their car, so go for it. Who can blame him.

Off he goes and is comprehensively beaten by Rosberg at every race. People ask why he is still smiling and relaxed. Well wouldn't you be if you were being paid huge amounts of money to do the only thing on this planet you have any interest in together with a team that will make all your excuses for your bad performance to save face. The latest one being Ross Brawn blaming the front tyres for Michael's inability to improve his performance as if they are the only ones to have them. Well if he was a rookie coming in at the deep end and he was still floundering at this stage of the tournament he'd have been told goodbye ages ago.

I put it to you that Mercedes are letting their fans and shareholders down by persisting with a driver who can't adapt to the new world.

I am a great supporter of Ross Brawn and Mercedes and it's driving me mad watching them squander what was done last year on a driver who is literally taking the p*ss. What they desperately need is a mature driver who can develop the current cars not an arrogant rich ex driver who thinks he can change the world on his own. Those days are gone.......unless he goes back to Ferrari of course, but with Alonso there he wouldn't stand a chance now.

Any other driver in his position would look at the situation, come to terms with it and depart gracefully. However I fear that Michael will hang on and on until he's either asked to go or has made himself such a laughing stock that even he has to admit defeat. Either way it's not going to be pretty and will damage his reputation irreparably.

There is one other thing that might cause him to go and that is further dangerous driving of the like that we witnessed yesterday. Heaven forbid that he ends up killing someone in his attempts to satisfy his ego.....................

#4039 EVO2

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Posted 02 August 2010 - 11:08

Can a driver with the most illustrious career in the history of our sport really have been THAT good if he can't get the speed out of his car achieved by his far less experienced teammate just because the tyres don't suit him ?

Like most racing fans I was excited by the thought of Schumacher mixing it with Hamilton, Button and Co and when he was paired with Rosberg ( a driver I have always rated highly ) I thought that he would quickly gain the advantage.

However it really pains me to see him return to the track and struggle, particularly as he has faired so badly against Rosberg in the same car.

So is it time to re-appraise the Schumacher legend ?

Undoubtedly Schumacher is a highly skilled driver but maybe he's not actually quite as good as an Alonso, Hamilton or a Vettel ?

We have an example of Hamilton who can get lap times out of the McLaren that Jenson can only dream about when the car is not set up just how he likes it. That probably makes Lewis the better driver overall for most fans, particularly on a dry track.

So, could the Schumacher legend be more down to the unique combination of the ruthless and highly skilled Team Management of Jean Todt and Ross Braun ?

I've never been a particular fan of Schumacher or Senna for that matter : They may have been fast but in my view there have been plenty of worthy World Champions who have behaved in an honourable way on track.

But I don't raise this question to do him down, I simply don't know the answer.


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#4040 Frans

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Posted 02 August 2010 - 11:18

Schumacher is making it really reallyHARD for his fans lately.....


ok, wait: here comes: :lol:

#4041 SpeedyS

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Posted 02 August 2010 - 11:22

Heres how I see it, Rosberg clearly faster than MS this year, anyone say different.. Well you just have your car numbers mixed up.

Wheather you agree or not MS still has his thoughts that he can challenge again at some point and is now looking at 2011.

Yes he is slower than Rosberg no doubt but it is clear to me he is experimenting as much as possible in prep for next year and building up his repuation again
of it is dangerous to pass me with moves like this week, the 10 places for next race is worth it, could be worth a extra point next year when some
backs out of a move against him and he knows it. He is almost talking it up "everyone knows I will not give you anything" Seeing his face it was like he had ticked a box off one
of the things he had to do!

Yes Rosberg might finish in the top 6 this year but the cars are a complete waste of time, the straight line speed is so slow that defending against a car that is just a little quicker than you is difficult and even when you are quicker you can not get passed because of the top speed. They basically finish where they finish the end of the first lap not un less it rains or car problems in front, this even the case when they are down 10th - 14th.

Again whether we agree or not MS is now only thinking next year and he will take it on the chin this year from the media, he is testing and building up his extra bonus points for 2011 now.

#4042 Diablobb81

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Posted 02 August 2010 - 13:45

Michael did a good thing apologizing, but the situation shouldn't have happened in the first place. Barrichello and old scores are simply not worth it. Just let him whine.

#4043 aditya-now

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Posted 02 August 2010 - 14:08

:rotfl: You really have trouble separating opinions from facts,don't you? Here's a pointer: try not to force opinions on others and state them like they were facts,only sounds rather pompous.


How many more weekends do you really need to understand why Michael is not beloved all over the planet? His results are one thing (and I won´t have to repeat any of it), his sportsmanship is another.

What does it say about you when you are such an adamantine fan of such a man?


#4044 chrisblades85

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Posted 02 August 2010 - 14:26

I think Martin Brundle summed it up perfectly on the forum.

In races where Micheal has been less than fair, shall we say. He may have 3 less wins and one less championship. But he would more revered throughout the world.

If it weren't for these issues in the past, then people may be more forgivng. But thats the way he is. Which, sometimes, is a shame.

But, as I previously said, yesterdays was the worst. Due to the speed.

#4045 BRK

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Posted 02 August 2010 - 14:29

How many more weekends do you really need to understand why Michael is not beloved all over the planet? His results are one thing (and I won´t have to repeat any of it), his sportsmanship is another.

What does it say about you when you are such an adamantine fan of such a man?


You've simply two choices: accept your yardstick is wrong (which you apparently can't because it'd make the most successful drivers on the grid overrated villains),or accept Alonso should also-by your theory-be an overrated schmuck that doesn't belong in F1. As an example. Or Hamilton,Vettel-just about anybody that's a successful F1 driver.

Question really should be what trolling by hypocrites that worship and admire one driver in an obscene way and yet persist in bashing another achieves: when you don't qualify as a neutral observer you really have no business trying to force your biased opinions on others,which is exactly what you were doing in the post I quoted.

#4046 BRK

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Posted 02 August 2010 - 14:34

I think Martin Brundle summed it up perfectly on the forum.

In races where Micheal has been less than fair, shall we say. He may have 3 less wins and one less championship. But he would more revered throughout the world.

If it weren't for these issues in the past, then people may be more forgivng. But thats the way he is. Which, sometimes, is a shame.

But, as I previously said, yesterdays was the worst. Due to the speed.


Michael wouldn't have achieved what he has in life without making enemies across the board. Goes for all walks of life. You rise to the top,you'll have your share of haters. Point is that if you tried to pacify the vulgar crowd you'd end up falling by the wayside-a lesson the current generation is learning quickly,I think. MS chose not to. And nobody-not one person-will give a rat's ass a hundred years from now.

#4047 chrisblades85

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Posted 02 August 2010 - 14:40

Michael wouldn't have achieved what he has in life without making enemies across the board. Goes for all walks of life. You rise to the top,you'll have your share of haters. Point is that if you tried to pacify the vulgar crowd you'd end up falling by the wayside-a lesson the current generation is learning quickly,I think. MS chose not to. And nobody-not one person-will give a rat's ass a hundred years from now.


I don't think he meant everybody would love him. No body is successful in life without making enemies. And lets be honest. He is the most successful. Doesn't matter what you say about him. He re-wrote the records. By being the best.



#4048 man

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Posted 02 August 2010 - 14:42

Let's face it, we've all been armchair experts at some stage be it football f1 boxing athletics etc we can sit at home and think "why didn't you do that" "why didn't you shoot" "why didn't you hit the apex". M Schumacher became an armchair fan like the rest of us, with surprising confidence he claimed he was going for the WDC. Most realists would not be surprised by his performances this year. If we put his previous career into context there were plenty upon plenty of question marks on what he could e capable of in a neutral environment against a decent driver and competition. M Schumacher got carried away and thought "I can take these youngsters". Reality kicked him in the teeth. He has been spanked by Rosberg who was never ranked as one of the very top drivers. M Schumachers driving has shown lots of signs of desperation with little composure. Truck load of mistakes into the bargain as well. His attitude has changed since the start of te season too. It seemed he had mellowed out a bit but as his beatings continued, dished out by Rosberg and even the likes of Alg in the TR he has rapidly lost all coolness. His driving is ragged and desperate now. Maybe he is experimenting maybe he isn't, if he is it has come from pure desperation. In his interviews he is back to his old arrogant rude self as he often was first time around when he was under pressure or produced one of his numb nuts moves. He is slow, he is arrogant, he appears to have psychotic traits and it really is pitiful for all watching. He comes across as a very sad man in his 40s with a few screw lose. A shame because when he entered the arena in 1991 he appeared to be a happy go lucky type. M Schumacher has desperate traits, he will do anything to get his away without giving a second thought for others. life is too short to have such little compassion for human life. His teammates father Keke was a one time world champion who perhaps didn't achieve as much as he perhaps could but still to thi day all that saw him race will look back with fond memories of his skill charisma and conduct within the sport. Being a decent human being comes before winning. It's been said many times already but M Schumacher now really is the F1 version of Tyson in his latter year of boxing... A pathetic case. Still, it generates much interest because people are curious about those who display such destructive careless behaviour. The even sadder aspect for M Schimacher was that even in his "Succesful" years people were never fully convinced by him due to his unique circumstances... Tyson on the hand really was a phenominal talent in his prime. I actually feel for M Schumacher. The guy genuinely has psychological issues and being in te public light. His blatant flaws are there for the whole world to see. He can't help being who he is.

#4049 Diablobb81

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Posted 02 August 2010 - 14:46

What a pathetic waste of forum space.

Now we have armchair race experts and armchair psychologists, all in one.

You can doubt whatever you want about his past. Doesn't mean you are right or that whatever happens this season can provide evidence either way.

#4050 SparkPlug

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Posted 02 August 2010 - 14:49

Let's face it, we've all been armchair experts at some stage be it football f1 boxing athletics etc we can sit at home and think "why didn't you do that" "why didn't you shoot" "why didn't you hit the apex". M Schumacher became an armchair fan like the rest of us, with surprising confidence he claimed he was going for the WDC. Most realists would not be surprised by his performances this year. If we put his previous career into context there were plenty upon plenty of question marks on what he could e capable of in a neutral environment against a decent driver and competition. M Schumacher got carried away and thought "I can take these youngsters". Reality kicked him in the teeth. He has been spanked by Rosberg who was never ranked as one of the very top drivers. M Schumachers driving has shown lots of signs of desperation with little composure. Truck load of mistakes into the bargain as well. His attitude has changed since the start of te season too. It seemed he had mellowed out a bit but as his beatings continued, dished out by Rosberg and even the likes of Alg in the TR he has rapidly lost all coolness. His driving is ragged and desperate now. Maybe he is experimenting maybe he isn't, if he is it has come from pure desperation. In his interviews he is back to his old arrogant rude self as he often was first time around when he was under pressure or produced one of his numb nuts moves. He is slow, he is arrogant, he appears to have psychotic traits and it really is pitiful for all watching. He comes across as a very sad man in his 40s with a few screw lose. A shame because when he entered the arena in 1991 he appeared to be a happy go lucky type. M Schumacher has desperate traits, he will do anything to get his away without giving a second thought for others. life is too short to have such little compassion for human life. His teammates father Keke was a one time world champion who perhaps didn't achieve as much as he perhaps could but still to thi day all that saw him race will look back with fond memories of his skill charisma and conduct within the sport. Being a decent human being comes before winning. It's been said many times already but M Schumacher now really is the F1 version of Tyson in his latter year of boxing... A pathetic case. Still, it generates much interest because people are curious about those who display such destructive careless behaviour. The even sadder aspect for M Schimacher was that even in his "Succesful" years people were never fully convinced by him due to his unique circumstances... Tyson on the hand really was a phenominal talent in his prime. I actually feel for M Schumacher. The guy genuinely has psychological issues and being in te public light. His blatant flaws are there for the whole world to see. He can't help being who he is.

Wow after writing that you claim Schumacher is the one with a psychological issue ? :rotfl: