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#4151 man

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Posted 04 August 2010 - 04:28

Also Mr Button never took a thrashing from Sato or Barrichello during his down time at Honda like M Schumacher is taking from Rosberg.

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#4152 baddog

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Posted 04 August 2010 - 04:53

The current situation really does put the rabid MS fans in a quandry. Either they admit that thier hero is not getting it done

I guess Im not that rabid... but MS clearly isnt getting it done at the moment. He and anyone with any sense would accept that. He isnt driving as well as Rosberg.

Now some would say 'Thats a result of many factors, some in his control and some not, but it is up to him (and the team as they have chosen him as a driver) to fix it, and I believe they can get there'. Thats being a reasonable fan I think and is my position.

Some would say 'I think he is driving badly and I dont think he will improve'. Thats being a reasonable non fan and is the position of many here.

Some others would say 'OMFG he was always crap cheat ban him slowmacher blah blah' thats silly bashing.. of course how prettily they dress it up depends on their level of sophistication but the message stays the same.

Some others would say 'Conspiracy, not his fault etc etc'. Thats silly fanboyism, and we have a few of those too.

#4153 Cheap Wine Alesi

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Posted 04 August 2010 - 05:16

I was at the Hungaroring and Michael is still one of the most popular drivers if not THE most popular, judging by the reaction of the crowds. On a neutral track like the Hungaroring at least. (I'm sure in Britain it's Hamilton and in Spain it's Alonso.)

And BTW, this year there were at least 2x as many people as last year....

And all of them were there due to Schumacher :rolleyes:

Think back to Spain/Turkey/Monaco 2010, that was the MS potential, and it will be extracted again, it's why MS is so chilled out for the future.

In 2 of those races he was clearly slower than Rosberg and spent the whole race holding him up.


Not everyone is infected with the gnat-like attention span of the internet ouvre. Who cancels what was always a 3 year project after 6 months because they havent achieved their aims for the whole project, or even because it has started rather badly?

But what if the project has no future? I for one hope MS continues, I am enjoying his comeback a lot and the more he embarrasses himself, the more I will enjoy it.
2 more years of silly crashes, getting crushed by your teammate and general embarrassment for MS - YES, please.

Interesting that all of a sudden your teammate is no longer a benchmark. Then who or what is? Based on what you are saying MS is his only benchmark. Well something needs calibrating cuz the other guy driving the same car designed for Button (not for Nico) is beating MS real easy.

Dont pay much attention to valens rantings.

#4154 baddog

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Posted 04 August 2010 - 05:53

But what if the project has no future?

Well, that might turn out to be the case, but to decide that now would be altogether rash and show a lack of commitment and 'guts'

#4155 ivand911

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Posted 04 August 2010 - 06:17

Dogs are barking, convoy is going.

#4156 Big Block 8

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Posted 04 August 2010 - 06:21

Not only is the teammate no longer a benchmark, also, the car's characteristics being built for someone else all of the sudden are a valid reason to be slower. What ever happened to "a good driver adapts" and the fact that HE ALWAYS DROVE CARS SPECIFICALLY DESIGNED FOR HIM WHICH HIS TEAMMATES HAD TO DEAL WITH AND HE IN PARTICULAR HAS A VERY UNIQUE DRIVING STYLE WHICH IS A NIGHTMARE TO DRIVE FOR ANYONE ELSE, but I guess he's immune to that?


Not too long ago a suggestion that different driving styles and different team focus might show in the overall result sheets brought forth a spirited response with out of context (or simply tosh) quotes of how "car's can't be designed to suit a certain driving style" / "car's are only designed to be fast" / "great drivers simply adapt" etc. - despite an overwhelming set of examples over the past years pointing out it's just not the case. I must say though that these people were not just MS fans, but generally fans of any driver who to this date has/had mostly been on the receiving end of team attention.

Despite the silence I don't know if these people even today have grown any wiser. But let's hope so! :wave:

#4157 MikeTekRacing

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Posted 04 August 2010 - 07:44

Now some would say 'Thats a result of many factors, some in his control and some not, but it is up to him (and the team as they have chosen him as a driver) to fix it, and I believe they can get there'. Thats being a reasonable fan I think and is my position.

Some would say 'I think he is driving badly and I dont think he will improve'. Thats being a reasonable non fan and is the position of many here.

Some others would say 'OMFG he was always crap cheat ban him slowmacher blah blah' thats silly bashing.. of course how prettily they dress it up depends on their level of sophistication but the message stays the same.

Some others would say 'Conspiracy, not his fault etc etc'. Thats silly fanboyism, and we have a few of those too.

agree 100%
the problem is that the last 2 categories are either too loud or too stupid too ignore and the circus goes on
the first category is exactly what ms himself has said since he joined mercedes. but heck, nobody listens to him, suddenly the all know more than him about setting up a car, about it being wdc capable or not
what does he know? it's not like he won ~100 races, 7 WDC and lost 3 more in a close fight

#4158 Frans

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Posted 04 August 2010 - 08:02

I wonder, if at Spa a bunch of people who hold a big ass banner with the words "SCHUMI GO HOME" are able to influence his (or The Mighty Mercedes-teams') thoughts....

In my opinion is Michael cashing in at Merc, and nothing more.

#4159 ivand911

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Posted 04 August 2010 - 11:58

I wonder, if at Spa a bunch of people who hold a big ass banner with the words "SCHUMI GO HOME" are able to influence his (or The Mighty Mercedes-teams') thoughts....

In my opinion is Michael cashing in at Merc, and nothing more.

Which fans will be majority there in Spa? I know from last year.


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#4160 man

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Posted 04 August 2010 - 13:41

Which fans will be majority there in Spa? I know from last year.


David Hasselhof/Daily Mail/ de Bilde/ type fans?

#4161 Birelman

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Posted 04 August 2010 - 20:13

Not too long ago a suggestion that different driving styles and different team focus might show in the overall result sheets brought forth a spirited response with out of context (or simply tosh) quotes of how "car's can't be designed to suit a certain driving style" / "car's are only designed to be fast" / "great drivers simply adapt" etc. - despite an overwhelming set of examples over the past years pointing out it's just not the case. I must say though that these people were not just MS fans, but generally fans of any driver who to this date has/had mostly been on the receiving end of team attention.

Despite the silence I don't know if these people even today have grown any wiser. But let's hope so! :wave:

Still lots of silence ;)

#4162 iakhtar

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Posted 04 August 2010 - 22:46

Silence is good i suppose, it's pretty much common sense that team focus will boost a drivers results and having a car that suits driving style will further help even more, pretty illogical to argue against that.

Personally i have no idea how cars are designed currently in f1, whether to outright suit a drivers style or to be as neutral as possible with a wide setup range so that both drivers can get potential from it, the latter seems to be the logical approach i guess.

#4163 Mauseri

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Posted 04 August 2010 - 23:12

Not too long ago a suggestion that different driving styles and different team focus might show in the overall result sheets brought forth a spirited response with out of context (or simply tosh) quotes of how "car's can't be designed to suit a certain driving style" / "car's are only designed to be fast" / "great drivers simply adapt" etc. - despite an overwhelming set of examples over the past years pointing out it's just not the case. I must say though that these people were not just MS fans, but generally fans of any driver who to this date has/had mostly been on the receiving end of team attention.

Despite the silence I don't know if these people even today have grown any wiser. But let's hope so! :wave:

I hope so too. The fans (mostly MS, but then also FA and even KR at some point) were really aggressive to defend the strenght of their driver since year 2000 when I found the sofa expert places in the internet. But now even the most stubborn MS fans must see the other side of the coin. Or at least I hope so.

Edited by Bianchimont, 04 August 2010 - 23:15.


#4164 SeanValen

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Posted 04 August 2010 - 23:19

Interesting that all of a sudden your teammate is no longer a benchmark. Then who or what is? Based on what you are saying MS is his only benchmark. Well something needs calibrating cuz the other guy driving the same car designed for Button (not for Nico) is beating MS real easy.



Just maybe, just maybe, did you ever consider for a second, that this years rules/regulations and tyres plus 3 years out makes this car much more difficult to drive for MS then rosberg, perhaps this is the most difficult car MS has ever had to drive in f1, both drivers are have come from different places, MS has come from 3 years of being outside the game, and no one can appreciate the details/technical aspects of the catch up game in that aspect then MS and Brawn, I respect what they have achieved to give them the benefit of the doubt of their 3 year agreement.

Rosberg should not be compared to MS until MS is up to his acceptable standard, consistent acceptable standard, clearly MS has issues in his comeback, but THEN NO OTHER DRIVER IS COMING BACK AFTER 3 YEARS, MS cannot be compared with any other driver, he deserves to be excused for his attempt to get back into the game, given the retirement he has had, he has nothing to prove, he is on his own time frame, it's very important and the time frame of MS getting back to standard is bascially what MS and the team tells us, not what we think MS should do, he knows more about what needs to be done then you and me.

ROSBERG in my opinon needs to be compared to MS once MS is up to his standard and satisfied. Rosberg has no wins, no championships, he is doing a good job, but if beating MS in a comeback learning phase year is the highlight of his career, then that still is what he will be remembered for, it's just 1 year. Next year or the year after or whenever MS does well, as long as he gets the results, then this year and the years until the result can be classified as returning champion finally achieved his most difficult title achievement in his career, winning with 3 teams, and returning+relearning the sport he mastered in his 1st career, how do you like the sound of that? Rosbergs 2010 will bascially just be special because he was with MS in the same team as he struggled and relearned f1, MS will be excused because his comeback was a more difficult challenge then expected as he got his 8th title in 2011, 2012 or 2013 or whenever. Until MS leaves, anything is possible, so be careful in writting statements where MS can make you look silly in the future, because by god he did it alot through 3 decades, but 1 decade on the forums, given the internet age boom this century. You have to admire the ambition of someone who was enjoying the retirement of MS, where there is will and ambition, there is a way, the end result who knows, but until then we cannot write him off just like Damon Hill said some weeks ago.



Edited by SeanValen, 04 August 2010 - 23:29.


#4165 F1Johnny

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Posted 05 August 2010 - 01:28

Just maybe, just maybe, did you ever consider for a second, that this years rules/regulations and tyres plus 3 years out makes this car much more difficult to drive for MS then rosberg, perhaps this is the most difficult car MS has ever had to drive in f1, both drivers are have come from different places, MS has come from 3 years of being outside the game, and no one can appreciate the details/technical aspects of the catch up game in that aspect then MS and Brawn, I respect what they have achieved to give them the benefit of the doubt of their 3 year agreement.

Rosberg should not be compared to MS until MS is up to his acceptable standard, consistent acceptable standard, clearly MS has issues in his comeback, but THEN NO OTHER DRIVER IS COMING BACK AFTER 3 YEARS, MS cannot be compared with any other driver, he deserves to be excused for his attempt to get back into the game, given the retirement he has had, he has nothing to prove, he is on his own time frame, it's very important and the time frame of MS getting back to standard is bascially what MS and the team tells us, not what we think MS should do, he knows more about what needs to be done then you and me.

ROSBERG in my opinon needs to be compared to MS once MS is up to his standard and satisfied. Rosberg has no wins, no championships, he is doing a good job, but if beating MS in a comeback learning phase year is the highlight of his career, then that still is what he will be remembered for, it's just 1 year. Next year or the year after or whenever MS does well, as long as he gets the results, then this year and the years until the result can be classified as returning champion finally achieved his most difficult title achievement in his career, winning with 3 teams, and returning+relearning the sport he mastered in his 1st career, how do you like the sound of that? Rosbergs 2010 will bascially just be special because he was with MS in the same team as he struggled and relearned f1, MS will be excused because his comeback was a more difficult challenge then expected as he got his 8th title in 2011, 2012 or 2013 or whenever. Until MS leaves, anything is possible, so be careful in writting statements where MS can make you look silly in the future, because by god he did it alot through 3 decades, but 1 decade on the forums, given the internet age boom this century. You have to admire the ambition of someone who was enjoying the retirement of MS, where there is will and ambition, there is a way, the end result who knows, but until then we cannot write him off just like Damon Hill said some weeks ago.


I just don't get it. Are you saying that because he won championships he has more of a right than a rookie and should have more time to come up to speed. I would expect the total opposite if I employed him. Based on what you are saying, if Kimi comes back in 2 years time he should be given the same latitude or do we pro rate it for the number of wins and championships.

It is crazy for MGP to just have MS driving around and being beaten so badly given his legacy. So if the car next year is more to his liking and not to Nico's I hope that Nico will receive the same support that you are giving MS.

I know you are a fan, but IMO I would give no driver in the history of F1 this much time under the same circumstances.

#4166 black magic

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Posted 05 August 2010 - 02:28

to answer your question

the answer is a resounding yes. someone who has won as many races and championships has clearly demonstrated that

1. he knows how to win

2. he can handle the pressure of all sorts of different championship scenarios

3. he claerly has the required talent/ speed

the only question regarding ms is does he still have the required speed.

any rookie no matter how talented has yet to demonstrate any of the above 3 prerequisites

so yes as a manger I'd employ a schumacher any day ahead of the equivalent rookie and possibly one even slightly faster.

it was also why i didnt understand why coulthard got a drive for so long. yes he was capable but he had also deombnstrated that he was not of the very top group and was never going to win a championship unless he had a nmassive car advantage - hence why not try and find a rookie who indeed might have had that extra speed.

#4167 jimm

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Posted 05 August 2010 - 02:50

Just maybe, just maybe, did you ever consider for a second, that this years rules/regulations and tyres plus 3 years out makes this car much more difficult to drive for MS then rosberg, perhaps this is the most difficult car MS has ever had to drive in f1, both drivers are have come from different places, MS has come from 3 years of being outside the game, and no one can appreciate the details/technical aspects of the catch up game in that aspect then MS and Brawn, I respect what they have achieved to give them the benefit of the doubt of their 3 year agreement.

Rosberg should not be compared to MS until MS is up to his acceptable standard, consistent acceptable standard, clearly MS has issues in his comeback, but THEN NO OTHER DRIVER IS COMING BACK AFTER 3 YEARS, MS cannot be compared with any other driver, he deserves to be excused for his attempt to get back into the game, given the retirement he has had, he has nothing to prove, he is on his own time frame, it's very important and the time frame of MS getting back to standard is bascially what MS and the team tells us, not what we think MS should do, he knows more about what needs to be done then you and me.

ROSBERG in my opinon needs to be compared to MS once MS is up to his standard and satisfied. Rosberg has no wins, no championships, he is doing a good job, but if beating MS in a comeback learning phase year is the highlight of his career, then that still is what he will be remembered for, it's just 1 year. Next year or the year after or whenever MS does well, as long as he gets the results, then this year and the years until the result can be classified as returning champion finally achieved his most difficult title achievement in his career, winning with 3 teams, and returning+relearning the sport he mastered in his 1st career, how do you like the sound of that? Rosbergs 2010 will bascially just be special because he was with MS in the same team as he struggled and relearned f1, MS will be excused because his comeback was a more difficult challenge then expected as he got his 8th title in 2011, 2012 or 2013 or whenever. Until MS leaves, anything is possible, so be careful in writting statements where MS can make you look silly in the future, because by god he did it alot through 3 decades, but 1 decade on the forums, given the internet age boom this century. You have to admire the ambition of someone who was enjoying the retirement of MS, where there is will and ambition, there is a way, the end result who knows, but until then we cannot write him off just like Damon Hill said some weeks ago.



Lauda came back after 3 years and was winning races.

I am sorry but you sound like an apologist. Like it or not, Rosberg is the benchmark. MS has now had 11 races to come to terms with the car. He is simply not up to speed. The rest of your post is just wishful thinking at this point. Until MS proves that he can beat Rosberg on a regular basis, then he is not fast enough period. The fact that Rosberg has not won a race only makes MS's inability to come to terms with him that much worse.

No way he changes anything this year. Next year there will be new tires and the cars will be different. It will be a leveler of sorts. If MS does not start off at least matching Rosberg then the writing is on the wall..

#4168 F1Johnny

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Posted 05 August 2010 - 03:21

to answer your question

the answer is a resounding yes. someone who has won as many races and championships has clearly demonstrated that

1. he knows how to win

2. he can handle the pressure of all sorts of different championship scenarios

3. he claerly has the required talent/ speed

the only question regarding ms is does he still have the required speed.

any rookie no matter how talented has yet to demonstrate any of the above 3 prerequisites

so yes as a manger I'd employ a schumacher any day ahead of the equivalent rookie and possibly one even slightly faster.

it was also why i didnt understand why coulthard got a drive for so long. yes he was capable but he had also deombnstrated that he was not of the very top group and was never going to win a championship unless he had a nmassive car advantage - hence why not try and find a rookie who indeed might have had that extra speed.


1. He KNEW how to win

2. He will need to get back to championship contention before demonstrating that ability which is not happening this year and is unlikely to happen next year

3. He clearly does not have the required speed this year

I would have employed him too. But after this season, I would ask him to step aside.

Funny thing about this whole excuse about the car not being to his liking which is always shot down when used by another driver, is that MS was always known for driving through anything. In fact in testing, it was said that Irvine delivered better feedback because he would identify the problems whereas MS would simply drive through them and still be faster than Irvine.

#4169 tormave

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Posted 05 August 2010 - 04:22

Rosberg should not be compared to MS until MS is up to his acceptable standard, consistent acceptable standard, clearly MS has issues in his comeback, but THEN NO OTHER DRIVER IS COMING BACK AFTER 3 YEARS, MS cannot be compared with any other driver, he deserves to be excused for his attempt to get back into the game, given the retirement he has had, he has nothing to prove, he is on his own time frame, it's very important and the time frame of MS getting back to standard is bascially what MS and the team tells us, not what we think MS should do, he knows more about what needs to be done then you and me.

What makes you think he's going to get up to this "his acceptable standard" anymore? Ever? Surely he's affected by his 3 year absence, but at the same time there are rookies to F1 from last few years who were quick right from the word go. Hamilton and Kobayashi are such examples. I would claim that even Petrov has been performing at MS's level (incidentally both him and Kobayashi have overtaken MS this year, Kobayashi more than once). Petrov wasn't away from F1 for 1 year, he's never driven an F1 car before nor anything on the Bridgestone F1 spec tyres.

You make is sound like MS can stay as long as he wants in F1 no matter how slow he is. I don't think he's got a lot of time to start showing improvements.

#4170 Birelman

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Posted 05 August 2010 - 04:41

1. He KNEW how to win

2. He will need to get back to championship contention before demonstrating that ability which is not happening this year and is unlikely to happen next year

3. He clearly does not have the required speed this year

I would have employed him too. But after this season, I would ask him to step aside.

Funny thing about this whole excuse about the car not being to his liking which is always shot down when used by another driver, is that MS was always known for driving through anything. In fact in testing, it was said that Irvine delivered better feedback because he would identify the problems whereas MS would simply drive through them and still be faster than Irvine.

The thing is, that's most probably a myth, and the car simply suited him well, but, we know it suited him well as it was made specifically for him, so, it doesn't surprise me that Irvine found flaws in it, I'm sure he had a hard time driving the car designed to suit Schumacher..

#4171 Cheap Wine Alesi

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Posted 05 August 2010 - 05:03

Just maybe, just maybe, did you ever consider for a second, that this years rules/regulations and tyres plus 3 years out makes this car much more difficult to drive for MS then rosberg, perhaps this is the most difficult car MS has ever had to drive in f1, both drivers are have come from different places, MS has come from 3 years of being outside the game, and no one can appreciate the details/technical aspects of the catch up game in that aspect then MS and Brawn, I respect what they have achieved to give them the benefit of the doubt of their 3 year agreement.

Rosberg should not be compared to MS until MS is up to his acceptable standard, consistent acceptable standard, clearly MS has issues in his comeback, but THEN NO OTHER DRIVER IS COMING BACK AFTER 3 YEARS, MS cannot be compared with any other driver, he deserves to be excused for his attempt to get back into the game, given the retirement he has had, he has nothing to prove, he is on his own time frame, it's very important and the time frame of MS getting back to standard is bascially what MS and the team tells us, not what we think MS should do, he knows more about what needs to be done then you and me.

ROSBERG in my opinon needs to be compared to MS once MS is up to his standard and satisfied. Rosberg has no wins, no championships, he is doing a good job, but if beating MS in a comeback learning phase year is the highlight of his career, then that still is what he will be remembered for, it's just 1 year. Next year or the year after or whenever MS does well, as long as he gets the results, then this year and the years until the result can be classified as returning champion finally achieved his most difficult title achievement in his career, winning with 3 teams, and returning+relearning the sport he mastered in his 1st career, how do you like the sound of that? Rosbergs 2010 will bascially just be special because he was with MS in the same team as he struggled and relearned f1, MS will be excused because his comeback was a more difficult challenge then expected as he got his 8th title in 2011, 2012 or 2013 or whenever. Until MS leaves, anything is possible, so be careful in writting statements where MS can make you look silly in the future, because by god he did it alot through 3 decades, but 1 decade on the forums, given the internet age boom this century. You have to admire the ambition of someone who was enjoying the retirement of MS, where there is will and ambition, there is a way, the end result who knows, but until then we cannot write him off just like Damon Hill said some weeks ago.



:rotfl: :stoned: :stoned:

#4172 steveninthematrix

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Posted 05 August 2010 - 05:36

having watched 99% of Michael's races, since 1991, there are a few things that come to mind....

1 , he didn't win 91 races because he wasn't very very very good......

2 , Barrichello is not much younger than Michael, so, I don't believe age is an or the issue..

3 , Brazil 2006 was one of Michael's best drives, and it really wasn't that long ago,

so, how do we explain what has happened so far this year?

i think the vast majority of the problem is, Tires + no testing

all the other drivers, are driving on tires this year, that they pretty much drove on last year... michael is only able to drive these tires at races, where each track is slightly different and the way the tires respond are different; Ross brawn even said that the nature of the front tires is what michael is struggling with the most;

so, will Michael retire at the end of 2010? No; and one of the big reasons he wont: PIRELLI

EVERYONE is getting new tires next year, which will be as different to Bridgestone 2010 tires as Bridgestone 2010 tires are to Bridgestone 2006 tires (where were in the middle of a tire war); once everyone gets Pirelli tires, and no testing, and new cars... if the Merc isn't a dog, I expect Michael to be right up there.

Now, in regards the Merc car - there is something peculiar about it; it appears to be the only car which goes slower and slower as the fuel comes down; look at the last few races, Michael and Nico appear to not nearly speed up as much (with fuel burning up) as everyone else; everyone else goes 2 seconds faster nearer the end of the race, but the Merc's only end up a second faster... tire wear? tire usage? not sure what the issue is, but near the end of the race, the Merc is always cr@P

thanks,

Steve

#4173 slaveceru

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Posted 05 August 2010 - 05:54

It is strange but every time Schumacher dose a good job his obsessive fans says he is back and now he will be better than Rosberg in a few races and it is similar for bashers of Schumacher whenever he is driving awful like was the last weekend they will say it is time to stop and he was never so good or he is overrated driver. In general Schumacher has a lot of respect from other drivers on the grid and also from other managers and racing team so they know something that we on the forms don’t. He knows how to win and this is important he is also very stable driver and his general mental skills are high he can tolerate the pressure from the media and fans and those things are very important. If every driver who did not performed very well in one season of F1 would stop driving in F1, than Button, Weber, and all drivers except Hamilton, Alonso and a few more would gone from the F1 sport.

Edited by slaveceru, 05 August 2010 - 06:14.


#4174 Big Block 8

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Posted 05 August 2010 - 07:40

Funny thing about this whole excuse about the car not being to his liking which is always shot down when used by another driver, is that MS was always known for driving through anything. In fact in testing, it was said that Irvine delivered better feedback because he would identify the problems whereas MS would simply drive through them and still be faster than Irvine.


The thing is, that's most probably a myth, and the car simply suited him well, but, we know it suited him well as it was made specifically for him, so, it doesn't surprise me that Irvine found flaws in it, I'm sure he had a hard time driving the car designed to suit Schumacher..


To put it more technical - a problem in certain area of the car is much more difficult to pinpoint if the rest of the areas of the car are working so well together for the driver that the driver can simply compensate the problem with small setup changes. Regs. MS and Irvine, Irvine's ideal setup window was a lot narrower than MS's (if Irvine ever was able to get it ideal for him must also be a plausible alternative), so in case of any problems emerging Irvine just couldn't compensate the problem with simple setup changes as easily as MS, or if at all. That in a way made him a better person to point out the most problematic areas more specifically.

"MS driving through any problems" was always a myth in a sense that many people thought that the feat could simply be repeated in any car - whereas the realistic expression would have been "MS driving through any problems in a car carefully designed and tested to be well suited for him". Which is more than a little bit different than the first expression!

Edited by Big Block 8, 05 August 2010 - 07:43.


#4175 man

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Posted 05 August 2010 - 07:54

He hasn't been out for three years... He competed at the last GP last weekend and a couple of weeks before that was another GP and a couple of weeks before that there was another GP and a couple of weeks before that there was another GP....etc etc



#4176 Lifew12

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Posted 05 August 2010 - 08:40

Rosberg should not be compared to MS until MS is up to his acceptable standard,


So, how long do we have to wait until Rosberg and Michael can be compared? What if, in one years time (assuming Mercedes has the patience to continue paying out millions for an underperforming driver) he's still being outdone by Rosberg - will we still have to wait for his 'acceptable standard' to come about? Maybe two years, maybe three, are you saying that until Michael is consistently better than Rosberg we can't compare him? You must be, as there is no certainty that this 'acceptable standard' is ever going to materialise, is there?

Here's a scenario for you to consider: let's say Mercedes had paired him with, say, Yamamoto, against whom Michael would have easily had the better of all year; you would, most likely, be pointing to the car being crap, etc, without the added problem that his team mate was doing rather better than him, wouldn't you? That's because, of course, Yamamoto is no yardstick; Rosberg, who is clearly getting the better of things, is a yardstick, for that very reason. We - and Mercedes - should certainly be comparing Michael to Rosberg right now, every race, every session, because it is a fair, simple comparison after more than half a season.

Of course, when his first couple of races weren't very good it was 'wait until he;s had four races', then 'half a season', and now - 'next year!' Who are you trying to kid? We have to give a 91 times winner and seven times champion a year, or more, to prove he's worth it?



#4177 ivand911

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Posted 05 August 2010 - 08:49

So, how long do we have to wait until Rosberg and Michael can be compared? What if, in one years time (assuming Mercedes has the patience to continue paying out millions for an underperforming driver) he's still being outdone by Rosberg - will we still have to wait for his 'acceptable standard' to come about? Maybe two years, maybe three, are you saying that until Michael is consistently better than Rosberg we can't compare him? You must be, as there is no certainty that this 'acceptable standard' is ever going to materialise, is there?

Here's a scenario for you to consider: let's say Mercedes had paired him with, say, Yamamoto, against whom Michael would have easily had the better of all year; you would, most likely, be pointing to the car being crap, etc, without the added problem that his team mate was doing rather better than him, wouldn't you? That's because, of course, Yamamoto is no yardstick; Rosberg, who is clearly getting the better of things, is a yardstick, for that very reason. We - and Mercedes - should certainly be comparing Michael to Rosberg right now, every race, every session, because it is a fair, simple comparison after more than half a season.

Of course, when his first couple of races weren't very good it was 'wait until he;s had four races', then 'half a season', and now - 'next year!' Who are you trying to kid? We have to give a 91 times winner and seven times champion a year, or more, to prove he's worth it?

Why are you so upset? Nobody want from you to give Michael any time? How much time you give Nico to get his first win, or Webber or Alonso? It is funny when somebody here think he need to give Michael Schumacher any time?

Edited by ivand911, 05 August 2010 - 08:56.


#4178 Lifew12

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Posted 05 August 2010 - 08:56

Why are you so upset? Nobody want from you to give Michael any time? How much time you give Nico to get his first win, or Webber or Alonso?


I'm not upset at all. Just getting a bit sick of short sighted people extending his shelf life simply because he's Michael Schumacher. What has the time given to Nico, or Webber, or Alonso got to do with this discussion? Why are YOU so upset?

I'm simply pointing out that the posters assertion that we need to 'wait until he's at an acceptable standard' is simply nonsense; had Michael been with a team mate he was beating this year, as explained, there would have been no claims for 'wait half a year' but simply 'the car's crap, he's just as good as ever'. As it his, he's being beaten, so we have to wait?

Michael Schumacher was a great racing driver, one who polarised opinion admittedly, but a bloody genius behind the wheel. I can't see it now.

#4179 ivand911

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Posted 05 August 2010 - 09:09

I don't know, do what you do in other cases when you don't like what you see or you don't see what you want to see. It is up to you. Michael don't owe anything to anyone? I think this thread is very long and if you read it you can form your opinion about Michael Schumacher 2010 or you just need to watch races and also decide for yourself. :)

Edited by ivand911, 05 August 2010 - 09:09.


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#4180 Lifew12

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Posted 05 August 2010 - 09:15

I don't know, do what you do in other cases when you don't like what you see or you don't see what you want to see. It is up to you. Michael don't owe anything to anyone? I think this thread is very long and if you read it you can form your opinion about Michael Schumacher 2010 or you just need to watch races and also decide for yourself. :)


I've followed the thread from the beginning, and F1 since the middle of the 70's, and I;ve formed my opinion on Michael Schumacher in 2010 on what I've seen; he's not doing very well, is he?

That wasn't what I was saying in the post that so obviously upset you, though, I was simply asking how long we have to wait before we can start using Rosberg as a yardstick? Presumably, from that posters inference, we can't do that until - if it happens - Michael consistently out-performs Rosberg.

Also, I get sick and tired of those who assume, because I post something they don't agree with, that I must have some sort of 'agenda'; I don't, and not everyone who posts on here does. I'm commenting on what I see, not what I want.


#4181 ivand911

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Posted 05 August 2010 - 10:27

I've followed the thread from the beginning, and F1 since the middle of the 70's, and I;ve formed my opinion on Michael Schumacher in 2010 on what I've seen; he's not doing very well, is he?

That wasn't what I was saying in the post that so obviously upset you, though, I was simply asking how long we have to wait before we can start using Rosberg as a yardstick? Presumably, from that posters inference, we can't do that until - if it happens - Michael consistently out-performs Rosberg.

Also, I get sick and tired of those who assume, because I post something they don't agree with, that I must have some sort of 'agenda'; I don't, and not everyone who posts on here does. I'm commenting on what I see, not what I want.

You don't like easy questions? Who, here in this forum can answer your question? Maybe Ross, Michael could answer you, but not here. I didn't say you are on agenda, you are some fresh air here , comparing to others who are really on agenda. And I am Michael fan , I can't be upset easily. :)

Edited by ivand911, 05 August 2010 - 10:30.


#4182 aditya-now

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Posted 05 August 2010 - 10:42

....I also appreciate the fact Brawn, Norbert Haug and MS himself know more the problems this year then their willing to admit on paper anytime soon. MS won't leave until he and the team have gotten the best out of themselfs. Like it or not MS hasn't been the reason Mercedes havent got a title this year or been challenging for it, Rosberg doesn't have the car to go for wins...


I agree with you on that one, Sean. I hope that Michael won't leave until they have gotten the best car possible, till Rosberg has the car to go for wins.
I see Michael's role nowadays as a test driver and developer for Nico, so that young Rosberg can go for the championship.

Michael has proved by now that he doesn't have the racecraft anymore (except for the starts, where he was not that good interestingly in his first career...). The most spectacular moves we have seen of Michael this year were when he was defending desperately, but that's not good enough to become championship.

So I do hope Michael stays in the sport until the end of 2011 so that they can develop a decent car for Rosberg's WDC.


#4183 aditya-now

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Posted 05 August 2010 - 10:45

Taken from a thread in TNF ( http://forums.autosp...howtopic=120990 - "Schumacher, sportsmanship and the huge decline in driving standards" ), these words of Doug Nye have a prophetic quality at this point:

This thread's title certainly includes two words one would not naturally combine. The old man - according to former team-mates - has no existence outside racing. I have no knowledge of whether that's true or not. But as with ageing drivers throughout motor racing history, should he find he can no longer achieve the fine edge of performance which once came so naturally, his natural reaction might well be to stick his elbows out even further than he did at his best.

Will the young lions be as readily intimidated `as some of his peers once were? I very much doubt it. By midway through next season we will either see just how good the Schumacher phenomenon really is - or a demeaned and wounded former superstar in genuine pain. Meantime I wish him and his a Happy Christmas.

DCN



#4184 Sakae

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Posted 05 August 2010 - 11:17

Upon his return, it was announced that Michael has three years contract. There was no contract I would know off on number of wins or titles, and if he stays for duration or not is not up to posters in here, but his employers and Michael himself. I can live with that, why not anyone else?


Perhaps a forward looking person is more pleasant partner in discussion, especially if we can share pleasant memories, but what is beneficial on negativism? Last night on one other thread among some 1600 odd posts about 1500 contained potentially anti-slant (based on voting results). This makes me thinking that it says more about us, that a man himself.

When I have started this thread, it was not my intention to turn this into burial ground, and maybe we can turn it around yet; we have 2.5 years left for it. Haug felt necessary to come out and assured us, that expectation is two faces coin, and life goes up and down; some of us have forgotten that. There are two years left, and plenty hope for him and their team. Mercedes fixed blowing engines, they will fix whatever is required at MGP. Michael may or may not win another title, but I would be surprised if we don't see him on or around podium often.

Edited by Sakae, 05 August 2010 - 11:18.


#4185 as65p

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Posted 05 August 2010 - 11:39

Upon his return, it was announced that Michael has three years contract. There was no contract I would know off on number of wins or titles, and if he stays for duration or not is not up to posters in here, but his employers and Michael himself. I can live with that, why not anyone else?


I don't see anyone not able to live with that, just speculation how it might turn out in the end. The length of his contract is the smallest concern in this equation, as has been shown time and again in F1 or any other competitive sport. If performance drops too much (or rather doesn't climb enough), the contract won't be worth the paper it's written on. The real point of interest is how much is too much (or what rise is good enough).

Perhaps a forward looking person is more pleasant partner in discussion, especially if we can share pleasant memories,


That's a nice sentence.... :D

...but what is beneficial on negativism?



On our, the spectators side if the fence, the same as with positivism: nothing. Both don't matter for real-life events.

When I have started this thread, it was not my intention to turn this into burial ground, and maybe we can turn it around yet; we have 2.5 years left for it. Haug felt necessary to come out and assured us, that expectation is two faces coin, and life goes up and down; some of us have forgotten that. There are two years left, and plenty hope for him and their team. Mercedes fixed blowing engines, they will fix whatever is required at MGP. Michael may or may not win another title, but I would be surprised if we don't see him on or around podium often.


See, that's it, reality squashed your hopes and intentions, apparently. Nothing you or anyone can do about that. And the underlined you phrased quite correctly, Haug "felt it necessary", because I dare say the same happens right now to his (and therefore Mercedes') hopes and intentions.


#4186 dav115

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Posted 05 August 2010 - 11:48

Lauda came back after 3 years and was winning races.

I am sorry but you sound like an apologist. Like it or not, Rosberg is the benchmark. MS has now had 11 races to come to terms with the car. He is simply not up to speed. The rest of your post is just wishful thinking at this point. Until MS proves that he can beat Rosberg on a regular basis, then he is not fast enough period. The fact that Rosberg has not won a race only makes MS's inability to come to terms with him that much worse.

No way he changes anything this year. Next year there will be new tires and the cars will be different. It will be a leveler of sorts. If MS does not start off at least matching Rosberg then the writing is on the wall..

Except Lauda was testing with McLaren for a good year before he even made his comeback.

#4187 as65p

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Posted 05 August 2010 - 12:07

Look, Nobby is getting there, slowly.

But he admitted that the team may need to go through some changes if success does not arrive in the future.
"Should after time not get the job done then you will change people," Haug added. "That's the name of the game for everybody.


#4188 Lifew12

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Posted 05 August 2010 - 12:12

Except Lauda was testing with McLaren for a good year before he even made his comeback.



Was he? Lauda was testing for all of 1981 before coming back? Are you really sure about that? Firstly, I don't think McLaren would have had the time and secondly, testing in those days wasn't undertaken in anything like the manner it is now, even with the ban.


#4189 MikeTekRacing

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Posted 05 August 2010 - 12:13

clearly they will do that

they can't understand their own car (what about developing it)
they have cut their budget and now it's difficult to turn around anything.

they need to win and they are not even close to doing that

#4190 Ferrari_F1_fan_2001

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Posted 05 August 2010 - 12:50

Look, Nobby is getting there, slowly.

But he admitted that the team may need to go through some changes if success does not arrive in the future.
"Should after time not get the job done then you will change people," Haug added. "That's the name of the game for everybody.



The technical department is the one that needs changing. It is the same Tyrell (yes, remember them?), BAR, Honda outfit that proved hopeless more often than not.

They had a massive advantage for 8 races in 2009 only for Red Bull to catch them mid way through. They had a 6 months head start (perhaps more) and they were caught DESPITE brining continous developments to the Brawn. Clearly, they must be doing something wrong for all their advantages to be wiped out so quickly.


2011 might be a repeat of 2010.

#4191 kenny

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Posted 05 August 2010 - 12:53

Look, Nobby is getting there, slowly.

But he admitted that the team may need to go through some changes if success does not arrive in the future.
"Should after time not get the job done then you will change people," Haug added. "That's the name of the game for everybody.


I saw this quote too and had the exact same thought...

#4192 carbonfibre

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Posted 05 August 2010 - 12:56

And i think that will mean in the technical department not drivers wise.

#4193 MikeTekRacing

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Posted 05 August 2010 - 13:03

drivers are always changed more often than the technical part
it'a lot easier so not worth mentioning there

he means the team structure as a whole

#4194 Lifew12

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Posted 05 August 2010 - 13:04

Clearly, they must be doing something wrong for all their advantages to be wiped out so quickly.


Or maybe the rest are doing something right, just as Brawn were at the beginning of last season?

#4195 ivand911

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Posted 05 August 2010 - 13:27

Yes, with such good car , they will start with changing drivers first. Not chance for this to happen.

Edited by ivand911, 05 August 2010 - 13:29.


#4196 Lifew12

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Posted 05 August 2010 - 13:30

Yes, with such good car , they will start with changing drivers first. Not chance for this to happen.


That's this years car. You must admit that Mercedes Benz may well be considering the financial worth of keeping Michael Schumacher, a man considerably more expensive than other options.

#4197 Buttoneer

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Posted 05 August 2010 - 13:40

Nico isn't doing so badly with this years car. A podium or two in the bag and the team is #4 right now.

So no, the car isn't the world beater it was last year but lets not pretend that Schumacher isn't making the car look worse than it is. I genuinely hope the man can raise his game, but for whatever reason Schumacher isn't able to get as much out of the car as another who was written off as a bit of a journeyman. That should tell you something about where Schumie's L33t sk1llz are right now.

#4198 ivand911

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Posted 05 August 2010 - 13:41

That's this years car. You must admit that Mercedes Benz may well be considering the financial worth of keeping Michael Schumacher, a man considerably more expensive than other options.

Michael return more to the team that they pay him, with sponsors, merchandise. Without Michael this could be one very dull team. And in the end there is a contracts, I don't think team deliver car for wins? Soon all midfield teams will stop to invest in this year cars. Will see then how they will position themselves. But for me car is now 6-7 best. Hope they will keep p4 ,but will be not easy. To achieve this they need to stop doing experiments with Michael.

Edited by ivand911, 05 August 2010 - 13:48.


#4199 Number62

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Posted 05 August 2010 - 13:46

rosberg was talking about wdc chances and a wdc contender car while michael was saying the car is not there
guess who was right


Didn't MS say after the Jan/Feb tests he was convinced they would be fighting for the championship?

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#4200 Spa95

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Posted 05 August 2010 - 13:55

Didn't MS say after the Jan/Feb tests he was convinced they would be fighting for the championship?


26 February 2010 - Schumacher: Mercedes not fast enough yet: http://www.gpupdate....ast-enough-yet/

27 February 2010 (morning): http://forums.autosp...w...t&p=4179490

Mercedes does not seem to be happy with the statements that Schumacher did yesterday, and would like to see the car very fast and reliable today.

Additional force to a special international conference was inserted with Michael Schumacher at 13:15, where Schumacher again speak to the press will say. This time it will be a more positive compared to yesterday, so expect the German media. Schumacher will have to tell that the car is very very fast and the victories are possible.


27 February 2010 (afternoon): Michael Schumacher has backtracked from his earlier remarks. - http://news.bbc.co.u...one/8540564.stm

Edited by Spa95, 05 August 2010 - 13:56.