Jump to content


Photo

Michael Schumacher (merged)


  • This topic is locked This topic is locked
20789 replies to this topic

#4201 Lifew12

Lifew12
  • Member

  • 4,551 posts
  • Joined: May 06

Posted 05 August 2010 - 13:56

Michael return more to the team that they pay him, with sponsors, merchandise. Without Michael this could be one very dull team. And in the end there is a contracts, I don't think team deliver car for wins? Soon all midfield teams will stop to invest in this year cars. Will see then how they will position themselves. But for me car is now 6-7 best. Hope they will keep p4 ,but will be not easy. To achieve this they need to stop doing experiments with Michael.


I'm intrigued by this constant assurance that 'Michael returns more to the team than they pay him' as I doubt he is doing that right now. They didn't hire him to sell some t-shirts, they hired him to win races, and challenge for the championship. No matter how much anyone tries to dress it up, or put a positive spin on it, it hasn't worked out as intended at all. Whatever you may think it is results that interest investors, and no matter what the driver is called and what he has delivered in the past if those results are not forthcoming his value is seriously diminished. Put it this way - say Mercedes do opt not to take up the option for next year, are the rest of the teams going to come banging on his door, desperate for him to join them? Five years ago, maybe, but now? They're not are they?

Advertisement

#4202 ivand911

ivand911
  • Member

  • 8,152 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 05 August 2010 - 14:14

I'm intrigued by this constant assurance that 'Michael returns more to the team than they pay him' as I doubt he is doing that right now. They didn't hire him to sell some t-shirts, they hired him to win races, and challenge for the championship. No matter how much anyone tries to dress it up, or put a positive spin on it, it hasn't worked out as intended at all. Whatever you may think it is results that interest investors, and no matter what the driver is called and what he has delivered in the past if those results are not forthcoming his value is seriously diminished. Put it this way - say Mercedes do opt not to take up the option for next year, are the rest of the teams going to come banging on his door, desperate for him to join them? Five years ago, maybe, but now? They're not are they?

I think to find who is wrong or right we will have to wait start of the next year to see who is on board? Michael was power who make Petronas, DHL and Autonomy to come. If they are not on the car next year then, they were not happy. But if they are , then they are happy. And this sponsors pay more than 7mil Michael receive like salary from the team. It is not only selling caps and t-shirts. But this help too.


#4203 frp

frp
  • Member

  • 352 posts
  • Joined: September 04

Posted 05 August 2010 - 14:18

Except Lauda was testing with McLaren for a good year before he even made his comeback.

As I remember, there had been no inkling of Lauda making a comeback until after the 1981 season ended. The there were rumours that Bernie was talking to him about a possible comeback with Brabham. Only sometime after that did he first test with McLaren.

#4204 man

man
  • Member

  • 1,302 posts
  • Joined: October 01

Posted 05 August 2010 - 14:21

I'm intrigued by this constant assurance that 'Michael returns more to the team than they pay him' as I doubt he is doing that right now. They didn't hire him to sell some t-shirts, they hired him to win races, and challenge for the championship. No matter how much anyone tries to dress it up, or put a positive spin on it, it hasn't worked out as intended at all. Whatever you may think it is results that interest investors, and no matter what the driver is called and what he has delivered in the past if those results are not forthcoming his value is seriously diminished. Put it this way - say Mercedes do opt not to take up the option for next year, are the rest of the teams going to come banging on his door, desperate for him to join them? Five years ago, maybe, but now? They're not are they?


This isn't football where a team signs an aging Beckham for the publicity and shirt sales. Mercedes objective is a lot more complex than that. They need to appeal to the right demographics....M Schumacher in 2010 is associated with the words "slow" unsporting" "arrogant" and "old". Hardly the qualities a marketing executive rubs his/her hands to. Merc definitely are getting exposure now but all for the wrong reasons. In fact Rosberg hasn't gained anything from this season...he has beaten M Schumacher so easily that question marks still remain regarding what he could do alongside a top driver. I think Merc requires a younger, quicker more positive driver that can push the team forward with Rosberg. A bit like what Kubica is doing with Renault.

#4205 ivand911

ivand911
  • Member

  • 8,152 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 05 August 2010 - 14:52

As I remember, there had been no inkling of Lauda making a comeback until after the 1981 season ended. The there were rumours that Bernie was talking to him about a possible comeback with Brabham. Only sometime after that did he first test with McLaren.

About Lauda
http://www.formula1....009/8/9727.html
"I hadn’t done anything for two years and when I did my first test in October 1981 I hardly managed three laps. That was a sharp signal for me that I’d better start improving my fitness immediately if my return to Formula One was not to end as a farce."


#4206 Sakae

Sakae
  • Member

  • 19,256 posts
  • Joined: December 03

Posted 05 August 2010 - 14:54

The technical department is the one that needs changing. It is the same Tyrell (yes, remember them?), BAR, Honda outfit that proved hopeless more often than not.

They had a massive advantage for 8 races in 2009 only for Red Bull to catch them mid way through. They had a 6 months head start (perhaps more) and they were caught DESPITE brining continous developments to the Brawn. Clearly, they must be doing something wrong for all their advantages to be wiped out so quickly.


2011 might be a repeat of 2010.


I do endorse your assertion, since in past couple of months I thought along those lines as well. Take Schumacher out of the equation, and you can make a case of changes in several departments within.

#4207 Big Block 8

Big Block 8
  • Member

  • 2,423 posts
  • Joined: January 04

Posted 05 August 2010 - 15:07

About Lauda
http://www.formula1....009/8/9727.html
"I hadn’t done anything for two years and when I did my first test in October 1981 I hardly managed three laps. That was a sharp signal for me that I’d better start improving my fitness immediately if my return to Formula One was not to end as a farce."


Thanks for info. I tried to look something up a while ago but I didn't find anything. :up:

Edit: Here's a bit more

http://www.guardian....er-f1-comebacks

Edited by Big Block 8, 05 August 2010 - 15:15.


#4208 Lifew12

Lifew12
  • Member

  • 4,551 posts
  • Joined: May 06

Posted 05 August 2010 - 15:32

I think to find who is wrong or right we will have to wait start of the next year to see who is on board? Michael was power who make Petronas, DHL and Autonomy to come. If they are not on the car next year then, they were not happy. But if they are , then they are happy. And this sponsors pay more than 7mil Michael receive like salary from the team. It is not only selling caps and t-shirts. But this help too.


I'm not sure that it was Michael who brought the likes of Petronas, as the draw of Mercedes Benz would likely have been an influence. I'm not talking, here, about who is 'right' or 'wrong' but about whether Mercedes will see fit to continue with Michael Schumacher just because he is Michael Schumacher. The sponsors are not going to stay very long is their name is consistently associated with negative press, look what happened at Renault.


#4209 ivand911

ivand911
  • Member

  • 8,152 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 05 August 2010 - 16:02

I'm not sure that it was Michael who brought the likes of Petronas, as the draw of Mercedes Benz would likely have been an influence. I'm not talking, here, about who is 'right' or 'wrong' but about whether Mercedes will see fit to continue with Michael Schumacher just because he is Michael Schumacher. The sponsors are not going to stay very long is their name is consistently associated with negative press, look what happened at Renault.

As I said ,we will wait and we will see. I have no idea what Mercedes board and sponsors think. Also don't know what is happening with the team inside. But I am sure that board and sponsors will not make any decision, when looking on WDC and WCC results only. They will have inside info, we will not have.

Edited by ivand911, 05 August 2010 - 16:08.


#4210 Lifew12

Lifew12
  • Member

  • 4,551 posts
  • Joined: May 06

Posted 05 August 2010 - 16:30

But I am sure that board and sponsors will not make any decision, when looking on WDC and WCC results only.


You're absolutely right. They will look at it in a practical manner, without being swayed by 'but it's Michael Schumacher' type of emotional responses.


#4211 SparkPlug

SparkPlug
  • Member

  • 491 posts
  • Joined: January 10

Posted 05 August 2010 - 16:35

I dont know why people here seem to think Michael Schumacher is bringing negative publicity to Mercedes in any way. Its a view that is highly coloured by the media. If you go outside the UK, Spain and Italy, especially in places outside Europe. You need to travel to Asia and the Americas to see what kind of an impact and name Schumacher has around the world. He is still by far the most recognized name in the sport. Any new fan that starts following F1 may know nothing about the sport but will know or would have heard of Schumacher. He is a brand ambassador and the biggest name of the sport by a country mile, much like Tiger Woods, Lance Armstrong, Ali or Roger Federer. This is the truth, no matter how much some over knowledgeable people on a BB may try to deny it.

So its not a PR failure for Mercedes by a long shot

#4212 Lifew12

Lifew12
  • Member

  • 4,551 posts
  • Joined: May 06

Posted 05 August 2010 - 16:51

He is still by far the most recognized name in the sport. ....
So its not a PR failure for Mercedes by a long shot


I wouldn't disagree that he's still the most recognised name in the sport; try asking those that don't know about the sport who he drives for, however.

#4213 man

man
  • Member

  • 1,302 posts
  • Joined: October 01

Posted 05 August 2010 - 17:30

I dont know why people here seem to think Michael Schumacher is bringing negative publicity to Mercedes in any way. Its a view that is highly coloured by the media. If you go outside the UK, Spain and Italy, especially in places outside Europe. You need to travel to Asia and the Americas to see what kind of an impact and name Schumacher has around the world. He is still by far the most recognized name in the sport. Any new fan that starts following F1 may know nothing about the sport but will know or would have heard of Schumacher. He is a brand ambassador and the biggest name of the sport by a country mile, much like Tiger Woods, Lance Armstrong, Ali or Roger Federer. This is the truth, no matter how much some over knowledgeable people on a BB may try to deny it.

So its not a PR failure for Mercedes by a long shot


Yep there is little argument that he is the most familiar name within the sport. But I would say he is on par with the likes of Michael Jackson and Mike Tyson during their latter days.

#4214 merschu

merschu
  • Member

  • 520 posts
  • Joined: December 09

Posted 05 August 2010 - 17:33

While the world keeps talking about Michael Schumacher's Hungary move on Rubens, he is enjoying his life doing a few parachute jumps with his family.

Posted Image

Original article.
http://www.citizensi...les-vosges.html


Translated to English article.
http://translate.goo...y...=auto&tl=en

Edited by merschu, 05 August 2010 - 17:36.


#4215 SparkPlug

SparkPlug
  • Member

  • 491 posts
  • Joined: January 10

Posted 05 August 2010 - 17:57

Yep there is little argument that he is the most familiar name within the sport. But I would say he is on par with the likes of Michael Jackson and Mike Tyson during their latter days.

Thats what you think. I attended the Bahrain GP this year (yeah I know really boring but I was in that part of the world then). You will probably be very surprised at the amount of admiration the man has over there.

Here is another example : Link

This is almost embarrassing for Schumacher (just look at his reaction). Grown up men shouting "I love you schumi" after his qualifying crash LOL(Talk about bad timing for a proposal).
You know, there is a world outside the United Kingdom. Maybe you should venture out and travel to another GP outside of Europe, you will get an idea of what I'm talking about. The experience will probably be very painful for someone like you who seems to be living in a cocoon where in your old imagination Schumacher is this "hated" figure of F1 and world sport. This is not the case not my friend, you can try as hard as you want to convince people (and yourself) about your opinion, but the more informed among us, who have actually seen audiences outside, will take a pass. The world audience loves Schumacher, the BBC have their task cut out (have to say they're not doing a bad job of "spreading the word about Schumacher")

Mind you these are not noob audiences by any means who are simply falling for hero worship. They have a fair idea of the sport, infact I would stick my neck out on this and say quite a few of them are far more balanced in their views of F1 than some members of this BB.


#4216 man

man
  • Member

  • 1,302 posts
  • Joined: October 01

Posted 05 August 2010 - 18:10

Thats what you think. I attended the Bahrain GP this year (yeah I know really boring but I was in that part of the world then). You will probably be very surprised at the amount of admiration the man has over there.

Here is another example : Link

This is almost embarrassing for Schumacher (just look at his reaction). Grown up men shouting "I love you schumi" after his qualifying crash LOL(Talk about bad timing for a proposal).
You know, there is a world outside the United Kingdom. Maybe you should venture out and travel to another GP outside of Europe, you will get an idea of what I'm talking about. The experience will probably be very painful for someone like you who seems to be living in a cocoon where in your old imagination Schumacher is this "hated" figure of F1 and world sport. This is not the case not my friend, you can try as hard as you want to convince people (and yourself) about your opinion, but the more informed among us, who have actually seen audiences outside, will take a pass. The world audience loves Schumacher, the BBC have their task cut out (have to say they're not doing a bad job of "spreading the word about Schumacher")

Mind you these are not noob audiences by any means who are simply falling for hero worship. They have a fair idea of the sport, infact I would stick my neck out on this and say quite a few of them are far more balanced in their views of F1 than some members of this BB.


Hmm...that was a bit rude and personal :(

For your information, I live in Norway, having previously lived in China, the Netherlands and South Africa and I've travelled to more countries than I care to remember.

In Germany, fans would flock to see Michael Jackson, Mike Tyson would always attract attention...how this differes to your man, I'm not sure.


#4217 ivand911

ivand911
  • Member

  • 8,152 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 05 August 2010 - 18:11

I was there in Turkey. Next year I will be back if Michael is in F1 then. I miss this moment in Qualification, I was at corner 2. His car went out in corner 8. But I have picture with his car on the truck going to the pit. Nice memories ,from the race and from the city Istanbul. There were people from our tourist group, they were at corner 8. They made very good picture and clips about him. They were lucky he stop his car there.

Edited by ivand911, 05 August 2010 - 18:16.


#4218 SparkPlug

SparkPlug
  • Member

  • 491 posts
  • Joined: January 10

Posted 05 August 2010 - 18:14

Hmm...that was a bit rude and personal :(

For your information, I live in Norway, having previously lived in China, the Netherlands and South Africa and I've travelled to more countries than I care to remember.

In Germany, fans would flock to see Michael Jackson, Mike Tyson would always attract attention...how this differes to your man, I'm not sure.

Wasnt meant to be personal. Apologies

As I said, watch a race or two outside Europe (and Brazil obviously), and then make your conclusion.
And, please read my message, its not just any attention that Schumacher gets, its admirable attention for the most part.
)
PS : MS is not "my man" :| , I am a bit of an old timer, a Rosberg Sr / Hakkinen fan, and for me MS's return reminds me of the 'good ol days'

#4219 man

man
  • Member

  • 1,302 posts
  • Joined: October 01

Posted 05 August 2010 - 18:24

Wasnt meant to be personal. Apologies

As I said, watch a race or two outside Europe (and Brazil obviously), and then make your conclusion.
And, please read my message, its not just any attention that Schumacher gets, its admirable attention for the most part.
)
PS : MS is not "my man" :| , I am a bit of an old timer, a Rosberg Sr / Hakkinen fan, and for me MS's return reminds me of the 'good ol days'


Would hate to see when you are trying to be rude. I'm curious About your associating M Schumacher with the good old days. A quick glance of the nostalgia forum suggests the man is anything bit popular with many old timers and that is globally not just the "inferior" beings that reside in the UK. From my perspective M Schumacher tends to be popular with those that are new to the sport by new I mean from the 80's onwards.

Edited by man, 05 August 2010 - 18:39.


Advertisement

#4220 slaveceru

slaveceru
  • Member

  • 180 posts
  • Joined: April 10

Posted 05 August 2010 - 19:14

Would hate to see when you are trying to be rude. I'm curious About your associating M Schumacher with the good old days. A quick glance of the nostalgia forum suggests the man is anything bit popular with many old timers and that is globally not just the "inferior" beings that reside in the UK. From my perspective M Schumacher tends to be popular with those that are new to the sport by new I mean from the 80's onwards.


So could you explain why is Senna popular he also drove in 1980 so in your opinion he is not one of the best known drivers in the history of F1 racing? Schumacher is famous period. He is a public figure and currently most famous driver in the grid of F1. Also the people who do not care about F1 know who Schumacher is and this people buy Mercedes cars. So in your opinion you have to be really old to understand F1 racing. All the bashers here do you have a crystal ball to look at and know what the Mercedes racing team thinks about Schumacher this moment. Personally I think that Mercedes racing team knew at the beginning that Schumacher will have a hard time and that is also one of the reasons that they have signed three year contract. So I will ask you what do you think about Tiger Woods he also came back this year and he is not in his best form but there is a place in golf for him and all other people who are involved in this sport respect him jet he is publicly humiliated.

#4221 man

man
  • Member

  • 1,302 posts
  • Joined: October 01

Posted 05 August 2010 - 19:48

So could you explain why is Senna popular he also drove in 1980 so in your opinion he is not one of the best known drivers in the history of F1 racing? Schumacher is famous period. He is a public figure and currently most famous driver in the grid of F1. Also the people who do not care about F1 know who Schumacher is and this people buy Mercedes cars. So in your opinion you have to be really old to understand F1 racing. All the bashers here do you have a crystal ball to look at and know what the Mercedes racing team thinks about Schumacher this moment. Personally I think that Mercedes racing team knew at the beginning that Schumacher will have a hard time and that is also one of the reasons that they have signed three year contract. So I will ask you what do you think about Tiger Woods he also came back this year and he is not in his best form but there is a place in golf for him and all other people who are involved in this sport respect him jet he is publicly humiliated.


As i stated earlier, he is known and indeed famous, however how that equates to that being a marketing success for Mercedes is beyond me. First of all, to be in a position to purchase a brand new Merc one must assume you need to be old enough to have a regular reasonably well paid job. In order to be in such a position one would assume one requires a decent education. I soubt Educated professionals would purchase a product such as a Mercedes Benz because a man such a M Schumacher drives for the F1 division of the company. Yes, perhaps he could generate more sales regarding merchandise such as tee shirts and hats but as mentioned earlier Mer are not Real Madrid. They are in the business of selling cars. They want to be in a position where they can place an ad in the newspaper or billboard which states "world champions". Given M Schumachers performance thus far that's not goin to happen with him at the wheel in a million years.

Edited by man, 05 August 2010 - 19:52.


#4222 F1Johnny

F1Johnny
  • Member

  • 5,556 posts
  • Joined: May 01

Posted 05 August 2010 - 20:01

So could you explain why is Senna popular he also drove in 1980 so in your opinion he is not one of the best known drivers in the history of F1 racing? Schumacher is famous period. He is a public figure and currently most famous driver in the grid of F1. Also the people who do not care about F1 know who Schumacher is and this people buy Mercedes cars. So in your opinion you have to be really old to understand F1 racing. All the bashers here do you have a crystal ball to look at and know what the Mercedes racing team thinks about Schumacher this moment. Personally I think that Mercedes racing team knew at the beginning that Schumacher will have a hard time and that is also one of the reasons that they have signed three year contract. So I will ask you what do you think about Tiger Woods he also came back this year and he is not in his best form but there is a place in golf for him and all other people who are involved in this sport respect him jet he is publicly humiliated.


Golf is an individual sport and Tiger left for a few months not 36/3 years and was able to practice when he wasn't playing. It is also a sport that you can play professionally until you are 60 years old.

#4223 slaveceru

slaveceru
  • Member

  • 180 posts
  • Joined: April 10

Posted 05 August 2010 - 20:09

Golf is an individual sport and Tiger left for a few months not 36/3 years and was able to practice when he wasn't playing. It is also a sport that you can play professionally until you are 60 years old.

They are both legends in their sport are they not and they are both public persons and have their sponsors so in the marketing business there is no difference between Tiger or Schumacher. I was not comparing the sporting aspect of golf to F1 racing.

#4224 slaveceru

slaveceru
  • Member

  • 180 posts
  • Joined: April 10

Posted 05 August 2010 - 20:14

As i stated earlier, he is known and indeed famous, however how that equates to that being a marketing success for Mercedes is beyond me.

To get the answer to this question you would have to ask a person who is involved in marketing business and he will explain why the big companies are prepared to sponsor legends in their sport after they do not produce the big results anymore.

#4225 F1Johnny

F1Johnny
  • Member

  • 5,556 posts
  • Joined: May 01

Posted 05 August 2010 - 20:25

They are both legends in their sport are they not and they are both public persons and have their sponsors so in the marketing business there is no difference between Tiger or Schumacher. I was not comparing the sporting aspect of golf to F1 racing.


I was referring to your comment about Tiger coming back and not being in the best form.

I know they will have sponsors for years to come but that accrues primarily to the individual. Sure the team sells some MS merchandise but they want 2 drivers doing well, not one.

#4226 ivand911

ivand911
  • Member

  • 8,152 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 05 August 2010 - 20:27

I was referring to your comment about Tiger coming back and not being in the best form.

I know they will have sponsors for years to come but that accrues primarily to the individual. Sure the team sells some MS merchandise but they want 2 drivers doing well, not one.

They can want everything, but now their drivers are 7th and 9th in WDC. And this is down to the car(5-6-7 best in the moment) mainly. True is they can't complain. And they don't intend too.

Edited by ivand911, 05 August 2010 - 20:29.


#4227 man

man
  • Member

  • 1,302 posts
  • Joined: October 01

Posted 05 August 2010 - 20:39

I'll give you this. If a rookie had performed as M Schumacher has done this year at Merc he would probably be shown the door at the end of the season. M Schumacher may just buy himself a bit more time because of the fact it was a high profile signing and Meec will end up and have ended up looking a bit silly recruiting him in the first place. It will be interesting to see what Merc decides to do.

#4228 ivand911

ivand911
  • Member

  • 8,152 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 05 August 2010 - 20:50

I'll give you this. If a rookie had performed as M Schumacher has done this year at Merc he would probably be shown the door at the end of the season. M Schumacher may just buy himself a bit more time because of the fact it was a high profile signing and Meec will end up and have ended up looking a bit silly recruiting him in the first place. It will be interesting to see what Merc decides to do.

You have to trust me that with p9 and 38 points , they will not fire any rookie. Just see who is ahead of him and who is behind him. Not a chance.

#4229 Muz Bee

Muz Bee
  • Member

  • 2,531 posts
  • Joined: October 07

Posted 05 August 2010 - 23:18

I was there in Turkey. Next year I will be back if Michael is in F1 then. I miss this moment in Qualification, I was at corner 2. His car went out in corner 8. But I have picture with his car on the truck going to the pit. Nice memories ,from the race and from the city Istanbul. There were people from our tourist group, they were at corner 8. They made very good picture and clips about him. They were lucky he stop his car there.

You remind me of the "fans" who go to football matches and the like but leave early because their team are, like 3-0 down. Yes I can understand a few moments of recognising the history and achievements of a driver (when Lauda pulled off the track and walked back to the pits in Adelaide at his last ever GP I stood and quietly applauded from by close-by position). When an old lion like Michael comes back and gets mauled each weekend it's not glorious or even courageous, it's just stupid IMHO. It's most unlikely he will at his stage of his career get any special favours like he enjoyed at Ferrari and he isn't likely to get offers from McLaren or RedBull or even Ferrari, certainly not as a race driver. :wave:

#4230 SpeedyS

SpeedyS
  • Member

  • 236 posts
  • Joined: June 10

Posted 05 August 2010 - 23:40

I dont know why people here seem to think Michael Schumacher is bringing negative publicity to Mercedes in any way. Its a view that is highly coloured by the media. If you go outside the UK, Spain and Italy, especially in places outside Europe. You need to travel to Asia and the Americas to see what kind of an impact and name Schumacher has around the world. He is still by far the most recognized name in the sport. Any new fan that starts following F1 may know nothing about the sport but will know or would have heard of Schumacher. He is a brand ambassador and the biggest name of the sport by a country mile, much like Tiger Woods, Lance Armstrong, Ali or Roger Federer. This is the truth, no matter how much some over knowledgeable people on a BB may try to deny it.

So its not a PR failure for Mercedes by a long shot


Yes there is a little world outside the UK. I live in south Korea where F1 is coming for the first time this year, when talking with Korean people the first question they ask is Shumacher coming, they know nothing about the sport or any other driver but they know him! 7m - 20m for Schumacher world wide is just nothing, Mercedes will make huge profit out of him even in just China and Korea, you cant even think what the market in China can do with his name, F1 makes huge profit out of him as well! Could you guess the difference in the TV rights in Korea if Schumacher was not coming?? Win or lose on track Mercedes have made a smart move with MS in there first year in F1

Edited by SpeedyS, 05 August 2010 - 23:47.


#4231 frp

frp
  • Member

  • 352 posts
  • Joined: September 04

Posted 05 August 2010 - 23:56

About Lauda
http://www.formula1....009/8/9727.html
"I hadn’t done anything for two years and when I did my first test in October 1981 I hardly managed three laps. That was a sharp signal for me that I’d better start improving my fitness immediately if my return to Formula One was not to end as a farce."

I'd forgotten it was so soon after the end of the season, but then it was (astonishingly!) nearly 29 years ago. Niki had to lock himself in the gym for a couple of months to get fit for the Kyalami tyre tests!

#4232 aditya-now

aditya-now
  • Member

  • 7,206 posts
  • Joined: June 02

Posted 06 August 2010 - 00:09

.... Yes I can understand a few moments of recognising the history and achievements of a driver (when Lauda pulled off the track and walked back to the pits in Adelaide at his last ever GP I stood and quietly applauded from by close-by position). When an old lion like Michael comes back and gets mauled each weekend it's not glorious or even courageous, it's just stupid IMHO.....


And what a race Adelaide 1985 was - Niki Lauda was going out with a bang. Nice you saw him from close by and could applaud the maybe most unique of the multiple WDCs.

If Schumacher had ended with Interlagos 2006, that would have been his monument - an excellent GP to end your career with, I always thought that Michael chose (or Montezemolo chose) the perfect end for his career.

Alas, it was not to be, and now we have a sad version of the genuine article, a grumpy old man driving around, endangering others.


#4233 aditya-now

aditya-now
  • Member

  • 7,206 posts
  • Joined: June 02

Posted 06 August 2010 - 00:21

.... I'm curious About your associating M Schumacher with the good old days. A quick glance of the nostalgia forum suggests the man is anything bit popular with many old timers and that is globally not just the "inferior" beings that reside in the UK. From my perspective M Schumacher tends to be popular with those that are new to the sport by new I mean from the 80's onwards.


This is one of the funniest phenomena that appears in RC these days: people referring to Schumacher as "the good old days"!

That's pretty laughable. You could call the 70s, the 60s or the 50s the good old days. But from the 80s onwards until now the sport has entered the modern era. Maybe the Prost/Senna/Piquet/Mansell days you could still with some justification call the good old days. Not so the Schumacher era, which is just the era before this era, which started in 2005.

So it seems that many people on RC causing all the disruption, weird exchanges and fanatical views are really relatively new to the sport - in my perspective from the mid-90s onwards.

I was just over at the Nostalgia Forum these days, and, man, there is a very clear understanding among the posters there on where to place Schumacher in the scheme of things. It's refreshing to see that on TNF most people see things for what they are, whereas on RC we seem to have too many teenagers on speed being all devotees of MS, not being able to see what the man is about.

In that vein, I'd be interested how posters of TNF view Alonso and Hamilton in contrast to Schumi. In my opinion, even though also not free of controversy, these two constitute a comeback of the "good old" racing spirit that was absent from 1994 onwards.


#4234 aditya-now

aditya-now
  • Member

  • 7,206 posts
  • Joined: June 02

Posted 06 August 2010 - 00:27

Stop comparing with him Rosberg this year, there's no point, the car is made for Jenson Button...


Sean, this is one of your finer posts.

Stop comparing Schumacher to Rosberg, as the car is made for Button. Wow. That means the car is neither made for Rosberg nor for Schumacher - so why should we not compare the two then?

Is it admitted only to compare Schumacher with his teammate when the car is tailor-made to Schumi's likings?


#4235 F1Johnny

F1Johnny
  • Member

  • 5,556 posts
  • Joined: May 01

Posted 06 August 2010 - 00:37

Sean, this is one of your finer posts.

Stop comparing Schumacher to Rosberg, as the car is made for Button. Wow. That means the car is neither made for Rosberg nor for Schumacher - so why should we not compare the two then?

Is it admitted only to compare Schumacher with his teammate when the car is tailor-made to Schumi's likings?


:up: Exactly. Comparisons can only be done when the car has MS DNA in it.


#4236 TC3000

TC3000
  • Member

  • 1,120 posts
  • Joined: September 09

Posted 06 August 2010 - 00:57

Hi Aditya-now,

Just out of curiousity, what is your definition of " the good old racing spirit" ?
And why/how was it absent from 1994 onwards?

Thanks

#4237 aditya-now

aditya-now
  • Member

  • 7,206 posts
  • Joined: June 02

Posted 06 August 2010 - 01:02

Hi Aditya-now,

Just out of curiousity, what is your definition of " the good old racing spirit" ?
And why/how was it absent from 1994 onwards?

Thanks


So which F1 season was the first racing season you saw consciously?
We have to establish the mutual parameters first. If I'd say "Jochen Rindt" it probably won't ring a bell with you?


#4238 SeanValen

SeanValen
  • Member

  • 16,967 posts
  • Joined: February 01

Posted 06 August 2010 - 01:08

:up: Exactly. Comparisons can only be done when the car has MS DNA in it.


Sean, this is one of your finer posts.

Stop comparing Schumacher to Rosberg, as the car is made for Button. Wow. That means the car is neither made for Rosberg nor for Schumacher - so why should we not compare the two then?

Is it admitted only to compare Schumacher with his teammate when the car is tailor-made to Schumi's likings?



And this is one of your worser posts. Everything discussed is speculation, estimate, guess work/theories, in the end, Brawn/Schumacher know more about the situation then any of us, what it takes to improve, what the tyres are doing, what set ups are doing with this years car, what comebacks/lack of testing is doing, so many factors, in that respect, posters like f1johnny writing off Schumacher as much as I'm not writing off Schumacher is in the end pointless as muich as comparing teamates, the long term picture is much more important, you guys seem so confident of writing MS off before he wins again, it seems perhaps you should be working in Mercedes with that confendence, maybe you guys can add a few tenths to next years car by expressing your sheer will.


Mercedes didn't design these tyres that Schumacher doens't seem to like, now and again/regulations/tyres take time to filter through car design and driver learning, rosberg isn't making a comeback, Schumacher is, his learning/adapting/difficulity is beyond your comprehension, because we don't have the facts, not the laptimes in the races, any goofball can quote results and laptimes, I'm talking about the behind the scenes tehnical debriefs that we know virtually nothing about, , so stop acting like you guys do, because you don't, until then respect the situation,wait it out, and you won't look silly in the future from now. MS has won with 2 different teams/going for a 3rd, for all we know this is rosberg's best season he's ever going to have and this is MS's worst season, who knows, Jenson Button won the title last year, this year Hamilton is ahead, Button looks llesser of a man, every f1 season can elevate or de-elevate someone, MS wins next year, loses year after, and the year after, wins again, Alonso looked subpar at Renault after Mclaren, yet he's doing well against Massa, or is Massa not up to his consistent standard, or is Massa not agreeing with the tyres/rules then previous cars, or was Alonso not liking the previous cars, how many drivers have rised and fall. I think the best driver in f1 currently is Lewis Hamilton-consistently strong from debut, raced and outscored Alonso in his 1st season, once MS gets up and running, MS vs Hamilton is what fans want to see, that should be good for f1-for entertainment.





:wave:

Edited by SeanValen, 06 August 2010 - 01:22.


#4239 TC3000

TC3000
  • Member

  • 1,120 posts
  • Joined: September 09

Posted 06 August 2010 - 01:13

So which F1 season was the first racing season you saw consciously?
We have to establish the mutual parameters first. If I'd say "Jochen Rindt" it probably won't ring a bell with you?



It does ring a bell with me - don´t worry
But would you think, that for this type of comparsion, we should establish some kind of reference time frame?
Post WW2, since the 1960, since 1970 etc.

I would say let´s start by 1980, it should give a large enough sample size, but also makes sure that it is not too far away to remember.
But it´s up to you, we can start with Fangio and Caracciola if you like.

Thanks again

Edited by TC3000, 06 August 2010 - 01:36.


Advertisement

#4240 jimm

jimm
  • Member

  • 3,228 posts
  • Joined: June 99

Posted 06 August 2010 - 02:51

This is one of the funniest phenomena that appears in RC these days: people referring to Schumacher as "the good old days"!

That's pretty laughable. You could call the 70s, the 60s or the 50s the good old days. But from the 80s onwards until now the sport has entered the modern era. Maybe the Prost/Senna/Piquet/Mansell days you could still with some justification call the good old days. Not so the Schumacher era, which is just the era before this era, which started in 2005.

So it seems that many people on RC causing all the disruption, weird exchanges and fanatical views are really relatively new to the sport - in my perspective from the mid-90s onwards.

I was just over at the Nostalgia Forum these days, and, man, there is a very clear understanding among the posters there on where to place Schumacher in the scheme of things. It's refreshing to see that on TNF most people see things for what they are, whereas on RC we seem to have too many teenagers on speed being all devotees of MS, not being able to see what the man is about.

In that vein, I'd be interested how posters of TNF view Alonso and Hamilton in contrast to Schumi. In my opinion, even though also not free of controversy, these two constitute a comeback of the "good old" racing spirit that was absent from 1994 onwards.

I agree with much of your assesment.

I started watching F1 during the 1980 season. The lack of transition, for the lack of a better word, was one issue. In the past, old champions were gradually replaced by up and comers who raced them head to head. Not MS's fault but he really never beat one of the established guard for the title. Prost retired, Mansell retired, Senna died, Piquet forced to retire all in a 2 yr span and these drivers had won all but 2 titles going back to 1981, and a huge majoirity of all the races for the previous decade. MS had won a grand total of 2 races with 2 or more of these guys still racing before the 1994 seasons.

Prost had to beat Lauda in the same car for the title along with Piquet who ran and won the title against Jones, Gilles, Andretti, Jodi etc. Alonso beat MS head to head.....you had a transition to the new generation. The talent level is also much higher now than has been for a decade.

The other thing that has changed is there seems to be an effort to return to racing with less of the turbulent politics that colored the previous era. Mosely being gone has made the atmosphere lighter as well. Return to no fuel stops is also a return to more of what F1 used to be..requiring a driver to manage a car over the distance. If they really do make the tires like Canada, then this skill will return to importance next year.



#4241 SparkPlug

SparkPlug
  • Member

  • 491 posts
  • Joined: January 10

Posted 06 August 2010 - 02:57

Would hate to see when you are trying to be rude. I'm curious About your associating M Schumacher with the good old days. A quick glance of the nostalgia forum suggests the man is anything bit popular with many old timers and that is globally not just the "inferior" beings that reside in the UK. From my perspective M Schumacher tends to be popular with those that are new to the sport by new I mean from the 80's onwards.

Wow, I am one of the new guys then, I "only" started watching the sport from the "early 80s". Thanks for making me feel young :)

Also, I did not say or imply that there are "inferior" beings that reside in the UK. You said it.
Schumacher is popular because he is immensely successful, not because of anything else. He is the best of all time IMO, and nothing a few forrumers say can take away any of his records or his popularity.

By saying that a few of "the old timers"(a majority of the old timers I bet dont even spend time on a forum BB ) dont regard Schumacher all that great, seems to me like you're indicating that the "new" fans of F1 dont know much about the sport ? Is that what you're implying ?

As i stated earlier, he is known and indeed famous, however how that equates to that being a marketing success for Mercedes is beyond me. First of all, to be in a position to purchase a brand new Merc one must assume you need to be old enough to have a regular reasonably well paid job. In order to be in such a position one would assume one requires a decent education. I soubt Educated professionals would purchase a product such as a Mercedes Benz because a man such a M Schumacher drives for the F1 division of the company. Yes, perhaps he could generate more sales regarding merchandise such as tee shirts and hats but as mentioned earlier Mer are not Real Madrid. They are in the business of selling cars. They want to be in a position where they can place an ad in the newspaper or billboard which states "world champions". Given M Schumachers performance thus far that's not goin to happen with him at the wheel in a million years.


I dont know why you made this post. Does Fernando Alonso help sell Ferrari cars ? Does Lewis Hamilton, arguably the best driver out there today help sell Mclarens (Oh wait that company is sinking fast isnt it ?)
Will you buy a car because your favourite driver drives for X team ? I doubt it. The main reason why manufacturers are in F1 in the first place is pride, to show the world that they're competing in the premier motor racing series in the world. The second reason is something they call "branding" in the marketing world. The average guy from China or Turkey or India may not be able to afford a Mercedes or a Ferrari, but watching an F1 race will raise his awareness of the brand, and of the top of the mind recall. It will help him/her associate with the brand of Mercedes/Ferrari when he sees one on the road.
Everybody in touch with the world of sport, around the world knows about the name Schumacher. So when he did return back, it made many many more headlines around the world(even in countries where F1 is not popular) than say Lewis winning the championship on the last corner. This has already probably increased awareness about Mercedes by a huge amount.

So, marketing success for Mercedes, check.

Edited by SparkPlug, 06 August 2010 - 03:07.


#4242 jimm

jimm
  • Member

  • 3,228 posts
  • Joined: June 99

Posted 06 August 2010 - 03:01

And this is one of your worser posts. Everything discussed is speculation, estimate, guess work/theories, in the end, Brawn/Schumacher know more about the situation then any of us, what it takes to improve, what the tyres are doing, what set ups are doing with this years car, what comebacks/lack of testing is doing, so many factors, in that respect, posters like f1johnny writing off Schumacher as much as I'm not writing off Schumacher is in the end pointless as muich as comparing teamates, the long term picture is much more important, you guys seem so confident of writing MS off before he wins again, it seems perhaps you should be working in Mercedes with that confendence, maybe you guys can add a few tenths to next years car by expressing your sheer will.


Mercedes didn't design these tyres that Schumacher doens't seem to like, now and again/regulations/tyres take time to filter through car design and driver learning, rosberg isn't making a comeback, Schumacher is, his learning/adapting/difficulity is beyond your comprehension, because we don't have the facts, not the laptimes in the races, any goofball can quote results and laptimes, I'm talking about the behind the scenes tehnical debriefs that we know virtually nothing about, , so stop acting like you guys do, because you don't, until then respect the situation,wait it out, and you won't look silly in the future from now. MS has won with 2 different teams/going for a 3rd, for all we know this is rosberg's best season he's ever going to have and this is MS's worst season, who knows, Jenson Button won the title last year, this year Hamilton is ahead, Button looks llesser of a man, every f1 season can elevate or de-elevate someone, MS wins next year, loses year after, and the year after, wins again, Alonso looked subpar at Renault after Mclaren, yet he's doing well against Massa, or is Massa not up to his consistent standard, or is Massa not agreeing with the tyres/rules then previous cars, or was Alonso not liking the previous cars, how many drivers have rised and fall. I think the best driver in f1 currently is Lewis Hamilton-consistently strong from debut, raced and outscored Alonso in his 1st season, once MS gets up and running, MS vs Hamilton is what fans want to see, that should be good for f1-for entertainment.





:wave:



Alonso has NEVER looked subpar next to another driver in the same car. The worse you can say about him was he was matched by Hamilton in the same car and Lewis is at least one of the top 3 drivers in the series so hardly a big knock against him.

MS can't even match a driver that has yet to win a race. Forget him beating the Ferraris, Mclarens, Red Bulls...he is getting beat like a drum by Rosberg who has many of the same issues you use as an excuse. No testing in the same car, has to drive the same car you complain about, has to use the same tires you claim are not ment for the car.....Yet he has podiums and makes Q3 while MS is starting to sweat just getting to Q2. It is pretty much a forgone conclusion that if they are on the track at the same time, Rosberg will be faster. Everyonce in a while MS squeezes a slightly quicker time but not nearly as often as Rosberg is a half second or more faster.. THe thing is that most people, including me, don't even rate Rosberg that high. Certainly not in the same league as LH, SB or Alonso...or for that matter Webber as he has raised his game a huge amount this year. ...What would they be doing to him this year if Rosberg is blowing him off all the time. If he had a car equal to them, he would not be getting lapped but he would not be winning as he can't beat Rosberg, and he would have the same equipment.

Schumacher has done 10 race distances not including the Fridays and Saturdays. He is as used to the car and tires as he is going to get. No hope for this year, it is a done deal and MS has not measured up. Onlly hope is that new tires and rules for the cars next year changes things. but I doubt it.

#4243 SparkPlug

SparkPlug
  • Member

  • 491 posts
  • Joined: January 10

Posted 06 August 2010 - 03:11

So it seems that many people on RC causing all the disruption, weird exchanges and fanatical views are really relatively new to the sport - in my perspective from the mid-90s onwards.

So it seems like you started watching F1 from the mid 90s :D

#4244 baddog

baddog
  • Member

  • 23,632 posts
  • Joined: June 99

Posted 06 August 2010 - 03:41

The good old days are whenever your personal 'heyday' of watching was. To dismiss someone elses is just patronising nonsense.

For me its both the 70s (jackie stewart era) as I was fascinated and had a toy tyrrell, and the early 80s with mad renaults and prost and piquet when I was first an adult fan. The 90s and early 00s are the modern era for ME, but for someone younger they may be their personal good old days. Who the hell are you to say otherwise?

#4245 jimm

jimm
  • Member

  • 3,228 posts
  • Joined: June 99

Posted 06 August 2010 - 04:42

The good old days are whenever your personal 'heyday' of watching was. To dismiss someone elses is just patronising nonsense.

For me its both the 70s (jackie stewart era) as I was fascinated and had a toy tyrrell, and the early 80s with mad renaults and prost and piquet when I was first an adult fan. The 90s and early 00s are the modern era for ME, but for someone younger they may be their personal good old days. Who the hell are you to say otherwise?



Not sure I agree.....I have enjoyed this season as much as I did the 80s through 93. Actually, 2006-2008 were really good also.

As to what consitutes the modern era...For me it is when F1 started to be a truely professional sport...started in the mid-late 70s. Really took hold in the early 80s.

#4246 slaveceru

slaveceru
  • Member

  • 180 posts
  • Joined: April 10

Posted 06 August 2010 - 06:35

I was referring to your comment about Tiger coming back and not being in the best form.

I know they will have sponsors for years to come but that accrues primarily to the individual. Sure the team sells some MS merchandise but they want 2 drivers doing well, not one.

In your opinion Petronas would come to Mercedes even if Schumacher would not drive for them or what? So you think that all the sponsors who came after Schumacher told that he will drive for them putted in their contract that Schumacher has to do well in F1 racing are you serious or what. They do not care how Schumacher is doing as long as they are getting the publicity they want. To judge how Schumacher is doing you would have to be in Mercedes racing team and not here. You do not know what issue he has with his car how long it will take him to get used to tires and new rules no one knows they hope he will get there sooner not later but that is all and they are prepared to stick with him all three years. You also forgot that the salary which Schumacher is getting is from sponsors so Mercedes has got Schumacher almost for free and I think that Schumacher would drive for Mercedes F1 team for free without the salary he has enough money not to worry for the rest of his life. Basically Schumacher or his name has brought a lot of sponsors to Mercedes team and they have all agreed to stick with him for three years no more or less. All sponsors knew what the risick here is and they were all prepared to sign the contract with him for such a long period. Because of the sponsors and his reputation he has no worry about loosing his seat in this team. The problem will arise when Vettle or Hamilton will look for a new seat.

#4247 slaveceru

slaveceru
  • Member

  • 180 posts
  • Joined: April 10

Posted 06 August 2010 - 06:45

You remind me of the "fans" who go to football matches and the like but leave early because their team are, like 3-0 down. Yes I can understand a few moments of recognising the history and achievements of a driver (when Lauda pulled off the track and walked back to the pits in Adelaide at his last ever GP I stood and quietly applauded from by close-by position). When an old lion like Michael comes back and gets mauled each weekend it's not glorious or even courageous, it's just stupid IMHO. It's most unlikely he will at his stage of his career get any special favours like he enjoyed at Ferrari and he isn't likely to get offers from McLaren or RedBull or even Ferrari, certainly not as a race driver. :wave:

Are you so sure in that? It is stupid to say something like that. If Red Bull would not have their seats full this and the next few years they would gladly signed Schumacher. Even if he is not performing as he should they still respect the man and they also fear him a little bit. They know he is something special and if all things fall together he could win another WDC.

Edited by slaveceru, 06 August 2010 - 06:47.


#4248 slaveceru

slaveceru
  • Member

  • 180 posts
  • Joined: April 10

Posted 06 August 2010 - 06:53

This is one of the funniest phenomena that appears in RC these days: people referring to Schumacher as "the good old days"!

That's pretty laughable. You could call the 70s, the 60s or the 50s the good old days. But from the 80s onwards until now the sport has entered the modern era. Maybe the Prost/Senna/Piquet/Mansell days you could still with some justification call the good old days. Not so the Schumacher era, which is just the era before this era, which started in 2005.

So it seems that many people on RC causing all the disruption, weird exchanges and fanatical views are really relatively new to the sport - in my perspective from the mid-90s onwards.

I was just over at the Nostalgia Forum these days, and, man, there is a very clear understanding among the posters there on where to place Schumacher in the scheme of things. It's refreshing to see that on TNF most people see things for what they are, whereas on RC we seem to have too many teenagers on speed being all devotees of MS, not being able to see what the man is about.

In that vein, I'd be interested how posters of TNF view Alonso and Hamilton in contrast to Schumi. In my opinion, even though also not free of controversy, these two constitute a comeback of the "good old" racing spirit that was absent from 1994 onwards.

:rotfl:
After 30 years from now the good old days will be from 90s onwards and prior to that all will be ancient history beacuse most of the people who are now aroud 40 - 50 will die.

#4249 ivand911

ivand911
  • Member

  • 8,152 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 06 August 2010 - 07:25

:rotfl:
After 30 years from now the good old days will be from 90s onwards and prior to that all will be ancient history beacuse most of the people who are now aroud 40 - 50 will die.

And there would be only one: Michael Schumacher. :wave:


#4250 aditya-now

aditya-now
  • Member

  • 7,206 posts
  • Joined: June 02

Posted 06 August 2010 - 07:36

And this is one of your worser posts. Everything discussed is speculation, estimate, guess work/theories, in the end, Brawn/Schumacher know more about the situation then any of us....




:wave:


Sean, I am not sure if you are not dodging the question here.

So to compare Rosberg and Schumacher, must the car be constructed to Schumacher's liking? That was the question.
You said that we should stop comparing Schumacher with Rosberg, as the Mercedes in 2010 is designed for Button.

Based on what we have seen, why should Brawn/Schumacher design the car with Schumacher DNA? Why not design the 2011 challenger to Rosberg's taste? He did much better with a car designed for Button than Schumacher. How much better will Nico be able to do when the car is specifically designed for him?

I think this is the best way that Schumacher can serve the team at this point - by contributing selflessly as a car developer. As a racer, Rosberg has clearly outdone Schumi this year.

So again: comparison with Rosberg is only permissible when the car is designed to Schumacher's liking? Is that what you are saying?