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#4251 Fortymark

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Posted 06 August 2010 - 07:45

There´s a good amount of evidence that Michael Schumacher is nothing but a fraud imo.
His legacy is based on a myth of having inferior cars, when in fact he mostly had the best cars
and a unsupported teammate.
He´ll get exposed one day, just like he´s getting exposed in 2010 as a slow and dirty driver.

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#4252 ivand911

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Posted 06 August 2010 - 08:03

So to compare Rosberg and Schumacher, must the car be constructed to Schumacher's liking? That was the question.

I agree Nico is better than Michael in MGP car. I agree for you, don't know why is that, I usually don't take decision before knowing the facts. Where truth is just that this car/tyres combo suit Nico usual driving style much more that it suit Michael usual style. But to make you happy I agree.
How we know that in all other cars Nico would be faster than Michael? Is there possibility Michael to be faster than Nico in RBR, Ferrari or in McLaren cars. They use tyres better, have better front end/grip, better WD and DF, overall better cars . This cars are also not design for Michael or Nico. If he is better than Nico in such car what this will mean? This mean he could be faster than Nico in better build car, which is not build for him.
I very much like this, that Mercedes is building next year car for Michael. Any prove for that? Why not for both ,but only for Michael. They also say they both have similar style.
First you say one lie(MGP car will be build for Michael) like is something proved. And after this you ask questions about this lie? "Based on what we have seen, why should Brawn/Schumacher design the car with Schumacher DNA? Why not design the 2011 challenger to Rosberg's taste? "
I don't get it? You are making up facts, and after this you ask questions about your facts.
I don't believe next year car will be build only for Michael. And they will left Nico just siting there and watching? The team have problems to make any good car, how will they manage to build car that suit Michael better? Can you explain how car build specially for Michael would look like? That we can recognize it, or there will be sign "build with Schumacher in mind". Or maybe car will be red. We know red cars are working well for him.

Edited by ivand911, 06 August 2010 - 08:56.


#4253 Yorkie

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Posted 06 August 2010 - 08:29

The thing is, that's most probably a myth, and the car simply suited him well, but, we know it suited him well as it was made specifically for him, so, it doesn't surprise me that Irvine found flaws in it, I'm sure he had a hard time driving the car designed to suit Schumacher..

Dont forget the Bridgestone tyres as well, tailored made for him

having watched 99% of Michael's races, since 1991, there are a few things that come to mind....

1 , he didn't win 91 races because he wasn't very very very good......

2 , Barrichello is not much younger than Michael, so, I don't believe age is an or the issue..

3 , Brazil 2006 was one of Michael's best drives, and it really wasn't that long ago,

so, how do we explain what has happened so far this year?

i think the vast majority of the problem is, Tires + no testing

all the other drivers, are driving on tires this year, that they pretty much drove on last year... michael is only able to drive these tires at races, where each track is slightly different and the way the tires respond are different; Ross brawn even said that the nature of the front tires is what michael is struggling with the most;

so, will Michael retire at the end of 2010? No; and one of the big reasons he wont: PIRELLI

EVERYONE is getting new tires next year, which will be as different to Bridgestone 2010 tires as Bridgestone 2010 tires are to Bridgestone 2006 tires (where were in the middle of a tire war); once everyone gets Pirelli tires, and no testing, and new cars... if the Merc isn't a dog, I expect Michael to be right up there.

Now, in regards the Merc car - there is something peculiar about it; it appears to be the only car which goes slower and slower as the fuel comes down; look at the last few races, Michael and Nico appear to not nearly speed up as much (with fuel burning up) as everyone else; everyone else goes 2 seconds faster nearer the end of the race, but the Merc's only end up a second faster... tire wear? tire usage? not sure what the issue is, but near the end of the race, the Merc is always cr@P

thanks,

Steve

The front tyres are new to all the other drivers as well, it doesnt seem to have slowed any of the other drivers down in comparison to their peers, MS is the only one moaning, interesting to see Mercedes have been talking to Pirelli about their thoughts on what their tyres will be like almost like their asking please fetch some tyres that might suit MS

#4254 Lifew12

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Posted 06 August 2010 - 08:50

Also the people who do not care about F1 know who Schumacher is and this people buy Mercedes cars.


Not by association with Mochael Schumacher, they don't. the great majority of those who don't care about F1 think he drives for Ferrari.

#4255 Ferrari_F1_fan_2001

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Posted 06 August 2010 - 08:51

He´ll get exposed one day, just like he´s getting exposed in 2010 as a slow and dirty driver.


Nothing to do with being 41?

Nothing to do with being out of the sport for 3.5 years?

Nothing to do with having very limited testing?

Nothing to do with having a car that is woeful and understeers like a boat?





#4256 ivand911

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Posted 06 August 2010 - 08:51

Dont forget the Bridgestone tyres as well, tailored made for him


The front tyres are new to all the other drivers as well, it doesnt seem to have slowed any of the other drivers down in comparison to their peers, MS is the only one moaning, interesting to see Mercedes have been talking to Pirelli about their thoughts on what their tyres will be like almost like their asking please fetch some tyres that might suit MS

From what I read about the tyres next year, Pirelli say that tyres will be with shorter life. And this making two stops in the race. Tyre will not last whole race like now.

Edited by ivand911, 06 August 2010 - 08:52.


#4257 Lifew12

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Posted 06 August 2010 - 09:35

Nothing to do with being 41?

Nothing to do with being out of the sport for 3.5 years?

Nothing to do with having very limited testing?

Nothing to do with having a car that is woeful and understeers like a boat?


They're all pretty good excuses, but let's face it, if part of his problem is that he's 41,it's not going to go away when he's 42, is it? Everyone has limited testing, and he hasn't been away for 3.5 years - he had at the beginning of the season, but he hasn't now. Further, Rosberg doesn't seem to have problems to the same degree as Schumacher, does he?
You missed 'doesn't like the tyres', by the way, that ones getting a lot of air time at the moment. One I'm surprised hasn't made an appearance is 'doesn't like not being number one in a team with a car designed specifically for him and a team mate who is there to back him up 100%' - that's a pretty believeable one, actually.




#4258 Big Block 8

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Posted 06 August 2010 - 09:40

I agree Nico is better than Michael in MGP car. I agree for you, don't know why is that, I usually don't take decision before knowing the facts. But to make you happy I agree.

How we know that in all other cars Nico would be faster than Michael? Is there possibility Michael to be faster than Nico in RBR, Ferrari or in McLaren cars.


We don't know because with the current F1 system the ability to rate the drivers in terms of actual "driving skill" in F1 is unfortunately somewhere between very poor and non existent - see my signature. But sure there is a possibility MS could be better in some other car, even though MS has proven to be worse than Rosberg in the 2010 MGP configuration.

That however goes for both ways and usually the better side of the perception has gone in the way of Schumacher. For example the majority proclaimed, most of them with absolute certainty (granted, increasingly to lesser extent as the years went by) that Schumacher would have been faster than Hill in the 94-96 Williams, faster than Villeneuve in 97 Williams, faster than Hakkinen in 98-00 McLaren and faster than Alonso in 05-06 Renaults. And unlike MS vs. Rosberg, he never even once drove against any of them in the same team. All they based that opinion on was a bunch of crummy teammate cross-comparisons.

#4259 carbonfibre

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Posted 06 August 2010 - 09:50

Would hate to see when you are trying to be rude. I'm curious About your associating M Schumacher with the good old days. A quick glance of the nostalgia forum suggests the man is anything bit popular with many old timers and that is globally not just the "inferior" beings that reside in the UK. From my perspective M Schumacher tends to be popular with those that are new to the sport by new I mean from the 80's onwards.

Yep that is called a new generation. It happens in every sport, with every subject on earth. If you guys would have grown up in the 80's the chance would have a lot bigger that you would have been a lot more supportive towards schumacher. You can't say your generation was better or times were better then. They were different.

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#4260 Frans

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Posted 06 August 2010 - 10:03

Stop comparing with him Rosberg this year, there's no point, the car is made for Jenson Button...



:rotfl: hahaha, do I sense some irritation there? :lol:

#4261 aditya-now

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Posted 06 August 2010 - 10:14

Yep that is called a new generation. It happens in every sport, with every subject on earth. If you guys would have grown up in the 80's the chance would have a lot bigger that you would have been a lot more supportive towards schumacher. You can't say your generation was better or times were better then. They were different.


History will make the verdict on MS.

It's not about generations, it's about decency and fair-play.
Alonso and Hamilton have more decency and fair-play on the track than MS. Well, you could say that's still another generation, if you'd grown up in the 00s that you'd understand them.
But as said, the verdict is out, and we'll see in 20 or 30 years where history will place MS and his manoeuvres.

To call it "good" old times is a bit cynical. Neither 1994 nor 1997 nor many of his minor machinations were "good", except for Schumacher himself.

What I would call "good old times" is Japan 2005, or the 2006 and 2007 season, for that matter.

But you are right, carbonfibre, maybe a whole generation has been brainwashed by Schumacher's advent and therefore will have hard times to establish what is "good" in motorsport.
Yet given that the sport goes in a "good" direction again, these people will have a chance to differentiate with a few years hindsight, say in 10 years.

#4262 britishtrident

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Posted 06 August 2010 - 10:18

Funny how all the other drivers considered all time greats (Ascari, Fangio, Moss, Clark.......................) although they generally preferred an oversteering car almost unconsciously adapted their driving style if it didn't.

Clark in particular tended to frustrate Chunky and the Lotus mechanics because Jimmy could adapt so quickly to anything that upset the handling of the car it made him difficult to use as a test driver, his skill masked the effects of trying to fine tune the cars balance.

Edited by britishtrident, 06 August 2010 - 10:19.


#4263 aditya-now

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Posted 06 August 2010 - 10:23

I agree Nico is better than Michael in MGP car. I agree for you, don't know why is that, I usually don't take decision before knowing the facts. Where truth is just that this car/tyres combo suit Nico usual driving style much more that it suit Michael usual style. But to make you happy I agree.
How we know that in all other cars Nico would be faster than Michael? Is there possibility Michael to be faster than Nico in RBR, Ferrari or in McLaren cars. They use tyres better, have better front end/grip, better WD and DF, overall better cars . This cars are also not design for Michael or Nico. If he is better than Nico in such car what this will mean? This mean he could be faster than Nico in better build car, which is not build for him.
I very much like this, that Mercedes is building next year car for Michael. Any prove for that? Why not for both ,but only for Michael. They also say they both have similar style.
First you say one lie(MGP car will be build for Michael) like is something proved. And after this you ask questions about this lie? "Based on what we have seen, why should Brawn/Schumacher design the car with Schumacher DNA? Why not design the 2011 challenger to Rosberg's taste? "
I don't get it? You are making up facts, and after this you ask questions about your facts.
I don't believe next year car will be build only for Michael. And they will left Nico just siting there and watching? The team have problems to make any good car, how will they manage to build car that suit Michael better? Can you explain how car build specially for Michael would look like? That we can recognize it, or there will be sign "build with Schumacher in mind". Or maybe car will be red. We know red cars are working well for him.


Dear Ivan,

best greetings to Bulgaria, I always have enjoyed the Bulgarian heart and Bulgarian kindness, for all the years that I have come to your country.

So granted, Ross and Michael will make all efforts to make a "Schumi-prone" car - we don't need proof for that, as they said already when they changed the car after China this year that they did it specifically to suit Michael's driving style.

If, as you say, Nico's driving style is similar to Michael's then I sense trouble for Schumi also next year - then the relative advantage of Nico will play out also next year.

A wild card is the Pirelli tyres - they could perfectly suit Michael, but just as well they could not be to his liking. I don't think that Mercedes/Brawn/Schumacher have enough influence to have the tyres developed to Michael's liking, although one cannot be perfectly sure of that, with Jean Todt being the FIA president he could arrange for Pirelli to have the parameters taken by two or three "experienced" drivers, one of those of course being Michael.

But as I said, I don't believe that their political influence goes that far, and also the other teams would scream if such an arrangement would become obvious.

So, it's not Ferrari and the tyres especially developed for Michael anymore, thus Nico will be as tough an opponent as this year.

At least, if Michael will be equally disastrous in 2011 they can blame it on the Pirelli tyres..... :p


#4264 Disgrace

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Posted 06 August 2010 - 10:26

Nothing to do with being 41?


Then he should retire immediately, for he is only getting older. He will be nearly 44 (!!!) if he sees out his three-year-contract, which I doubt.

#4265 aditya-now

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Posted 06 August 2010 - 10:26

Funny how all the other drivers considered all time greats (Ascari, Fangio, Moss, Clark.......................) although they generally preferred an oversteering car almost unconsciously adapted their driving style if it didn't.

Clark in particular tended to frustrate Chunky and the Lotus mechanics because Jimmy could adapt so quickly to anything that upset the handling of the car it made him difficult to use as a test driver, his skill masked the effects of trying to fine tune the cars balance.


These are the real "good old times", a driver like Jim Clark, and with his ingenuity came his adaptability to any car.
Notice also that Clark participated in many different series and car makes and was highly successful.

Notice as well, that Michael Schumacher steadfastly declined to participate in any other series (except for go-karts), he knows fully well that his showing would not be that outrageous. And interestingly Michael tries to have his F1 cars also handle like go-karts, than he is at his best.



#4266 aditya-now

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Posted 06 August 2010 - 10:38

Look, Nobby is getting there, slowly.

But he admitted that the team may need to go through some changes if success does not arrive in the future.
"Should after time not get the job done then you will change people," Haug added. "That's the name of the game for everybody.


The name of the game for everybody.

Also: "It's still not good enough. It's not satisfying for us not to get to the leaders but we have been there before. We have the ingredients, we have the team, we need to concentrate, focus and we are sticking together as a team. And if you are not doing that you are very soon history."

So let's see.

Edited by aditya-now, 06 August 2010 - 10:41.


#4267 ivand911

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Posted 06 August 2010 - 10:43

Notice as well, that Michael Schumacher steadfastly declined to participate in any other series (except for go-karts), he knows fully well that his showing would not be that outrageous. And interestingly Michael tries to have his F1 cars also handle like go-karts, than he is at his best.

:) What other series you mean? What was the rumor?
About Pirreli I said what I read, other speculations as in your post I leave to you. You are good at it. For me would be interesting his opinion when all teams test tyres in Abu Dhabi latter this year.
Don't you hear Michael will be secret driver who will develop Pirreli tyres. :rotfl:

Edited by ivand911, 06 August 2010 - 10:54.


#4268 man

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Posted 06 August 2010 - 10:55

Wow, I am one of the new guys then, I "only" started watching the sport from the "early 80s". Thanks for making me feel young :)

Also, I did not say or imply that there are "inferior" beings that reside in the UK. You said it.
Schumacher is popular because he is immensely successful, not because of anything else. He is the best of all time IMO, and nothing a few forrumers say can take away any of his records or his popularity.

By saying that a few of "the old timers"(a majority of the old timers I bet dont even spend time on a forum BB ) dont regard Schumacher all that great, seems to me like you're indicating that the "new" fans of F1 dont know much about the sport ? Is that what you're implying ?



I dont know why you made this post. Does Fernando Alonso help sell Ferrari cars ? Does Lewis Hamilton, arguably the best driver out there today help sell Mclarens (Oh wait that company is sinking fast isnt it ?)
Will you buy a car because your favourite driver drives for X team ? I doubt it. The main reason why manufacturers are in F1 in the first place is pride, to show the world that they're competing in the premier motor racing series in the world. The second reason is something they call "branding" in the marketing world. The average guy from China or Turkey or India may not be able to afford a Mercedes or a Ferrari, but watching an F1 race will raise his awareness of the brand, and of the top of the mind recall. It will help him/her associate with the brand of Mercedes/Ferrari when he sees one on the road.
Everybody in touch with the world of sport, around the world knows about the name Schumacher. So when he did return back, it made many many more headlines around the world(even in countries where F1 is not popular) than say Lewis winning the championship on the last corner. This has already probably increased awareness about Mercedes by a huge amount.

So, marketing success for Mercedes, check.


Indeed...branding is the key word. Now what are the key words the newspapers, media as well as fans associate with M Schumacher in 2010? I would hazard to guess; "old" "dangerous" and "slow". That is universal, not just the UK. You are somehow deluded into believing the advertising/marketing industry especially in the context of Mercedes equates bad publicity = publicity = good. That is an old myth that doesn't apply these days. Just ask Toyota. The connotations of being associated with M Schumacher have rapidly changed during the season. A little bit like how Michael Jackson faded so badly during his latter years and though undoubtedly very well known, became a laughing stock. So yes, its fairly easy to pluck out a youtube clip of an odd man confessing his love for M Schumacher, but that can be found for litterally anyone in the media spotlight. A bit like German teenage girls who used to lose all sense of control when being within a mile of Michael Jackson - even when past his heyday. The advertising industry is not merely after awareness...think of airline crashes. No, the quality of the association is more important. The fact of the matter is, Mercedes Benz is one of the if not the most known brand in its class. It is in the business of selling cars and it wants to appeal to certain demographics, not weird fanatics who worship a has been celebrity. They are after "normal" people with jobs/professionals who generally speaking have a life. Their main goal is to one day place that ad in your paper or on a billboard with the simple text stating "world champions". They want to be seen leading and winning GP's and championships as it will refelect positively on their technology. M Schumacher is usually found trailing around in midfield/tailend of the field, being lapped and more often than not behind his teammate. He is often involved in negative controversial incidents. The sympathy vote fades very quickly as will the tolerance of Merc's fat cats.


#4269 arknor

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Posted 06 August 2010 - 10:57

Notice as well, that Michael Schumacher steadfastly declined to participate in any other series (except for go-karts), he knows fully well that his showing would not be that outrageous. And interestingly Michael tries to have his F1 cars also handle like go-karts, than he is at his best.

hes done ROC every year so far and they dont use karts? hes always done well at ROC aswell

Edited by arknor, 06 August 2010 - 10:57.


#4270 man

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Posted 06 August 2010 - 11:02

Nothing to do with being 41? Perhaps but doubt it.

Nothing to do with being out of the sport for 3.5 years? nope, he hasnt been out for 3.5 years, he was racing last weekend and the race before and the race before and the race before and the race before etc etc

Nothing to do with having very limited testing? The root issue is adaptability

Nothing to do with having a car that is woeful and understeers like a boat? Nope. Rosberg drives the same car - and is much better than him



#4271 man

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Posted 06 August 2010 - 11:06

Yep that is called a new generation. It happens in every sport, with every subject on earth. If you guys would have grown up in the 80's the chance would have a lot bigger that you would have been a lot more supportive towards schumacher. You can't say your generation was better or times were better then. They were different.


My statement was in reply to the other geezer who stated M Schumacher's return was a return to the good old days. Most of the folk that have seen Grand Prix racing from its early days tend to have a fairly low opinion of M Schumacher.


#4272 ivand911

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Posted 06 August 2010 - 11:24

The advertising industry is not merely after awareness...think of airline crashes. No, the quality of the association is more important. The fact of the matter is, Mercedes Benz is one of the if not the most known brand in its class. It is in the business of selling cars and it wants to appeal to certain demographics, not weird fanatics who worship a has been celebrity. They are after "normal" people with jobs/professionals who generally speaking have a life. Their main goal is to one day place that ad in your paper or on a billboard with the simple text stating "world champions". They want to be seen leading and winning GP's and championships as it will refelect positively on their technology. M Schumacher is usually found trailing around in midfield/tailend of the field, being lapped and more often than not behind his teammate. He is often involved in negative controversial incidents. The sympathy vote fades very quickly as will the tolerance of Merc's fat cats.

I know what I will told you will be shock for you. But not everyone on this planet follow F1. How much people in the world follow F1? People don't know what happen last week or where is Michael in WDC. But they know he is 7time champion or the biggest name in F1. I also don't follow golf but I know who is Tiger, or in tennis who is Nadal or Federer. Because you have bad opinion don't mean everyone have it or know why they need to have bad opinion. This is why Michael is not bad investment for investors in MGP. If you see Mercedes sales results ,they would say that they are happy with how the things are going. Because you and 1 mil people think Michael Schumacher is bad name, don't mean other 5-6 billion people will have bad opinion about him. Again, not everyone follow F1 and sit all day in forums like us to discuss things. How much people write something in Rubens/Michael thread? People invest in F1 not only because the people who watch F1. They invest for people outside F1 too. I know that you will never buy Mercedes car because of Michael, but I think they could accept that. Somebody else will buy.

Edited by ivand911, 06 August 2010 - 11:31.


#4273 man

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Posted 06 August 2010 - 11:40

I know what I will told you will be shock for you. But not everyone on this planet follow F1. How much people in the world follow F1? People don't know what happen last week or where is Michael in WDC. But they know he is 7time champion or the biggest name in F1. I also don't follow golf but I know who is Tiger, or in tennis who is Nadal or Federer. Because you have bad opinion don't mean everyone have it or know why they need to have bad opinion. This is why Michael is not bad investment for investors in MGP. If you see Mercedes sales results ,they would say that they are happy with how the things are going. Because you and 1 mil people think Michael Schumacher is bad name, don't mean other 5-6 billion people will have bad opinion about him. Again, not everyone follow F1 and sit all day in forums like us to discuss things. How much people write something in Rubens/Michael thread? People invest in F1 not only because the people who watch F1. They invest for people outside F1 too. I know that you will never buy Mercedes car because of Michael, but I think they could accept that. Somebody else will buy.



Some valid points my Bulgarian friend. But Mercedes are not in F1 just to have their name on the classified finishers of each race. They are there to compete with Fiat, Renault etc. They dont have the stance of "we have M Schumacher driving a Merc so finishing out of the points, being lapped and front page coverage of a potential fatal move pulled by one of their old drivers is fine". They are there to win to show that they have the best technology available. M Schumacher is in no way assisting them with their task.

Edited by man, 06 August 2010 - 11:47.


#4274 Lifew12

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Posted 06 August 2010 - 12:02

I know what I will told you will be shock for you. But not everyone on this planet follow F1. How much people in the world follow F1? People don't know what happen last week or where is Michael in WDC. But they know he is 7time champion or the biggest name in F1. I also don't follow golf but I know who is Tiger, or in tennis who is Nadal or Federer. Because you have bad opinion don't mean everyone have it or know why they need to have bad opinion. This is why Michael is not bad investment for investors in MGP. If you see Mercedes sales results ,they would say that they are happy with how the things are going. Because you and 1 mil people think Michael Schumacher is bad name, don't mean other 5-6 billion people will have bad opinion about him. Again, not everyone follow F1 and sit all day in forums like us to discuss things. How much people write something in Rubens/Michael thread? People invest in F1 not only because the people who watch F1. They invest for people outside F1 too. I know that you will never buy Mercedes car because of Michael, but I think they could accept that. Somebody else will buy.


While all this is interesting, I would still point out to you, again, that those who are not interested in F1, but who know Michael Schumacher's name, associate him with Ferrari.

Mercedes F1 hired Michael Schumacher to win races; when a Mercedes wins races, it helps the brand profile. It's not happening.

#4275 ivand911

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Posted 06 August 2010 - 12:09

While all this is interesting, I would still point out to you, again, that those who are not interested in F1, but who know Michael Schumacher's name, associate him with Ferrari.

Mercedes F1 hired Michael Schumacher to win races; when a Mercedes wins races, it helps the brand profile. It's not happening.

In reality you buy Mercedes because you want Mercedes and you can buy one or two. Not because this and this driver drive for them. If they associate him with Ferrari, when they go to Mercedes dealership they will see his poster, and they will have explanation that he now drive for Mercedes Benz team. And he left Ferrari. Client will say this is very interesting and he will forget it 10 minutes after he leave with his new car.

Edited by ivand911, 06 August 2010 - 12:14.


#4276 aditya-now

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Posted 06 August 2010 - 12:12

hes done ROC every year so far and they dont use karts? hes always done well at ROC aswell


ROC is a fun event, it cannot be compared to taking seriously part in a series for a season.

I fell into that trap (of taking the ROC seriously) once, when Heikki Kovalainen defeated Michael. I thought back then that Heikki was the second coming.
Meanwhile Michael has been debunked and Heikki - solid, but not brilliant.


#4277 Big Block 8

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Posted 06 August 2010 - 12:20

ROC is a fun event, it cannot be compared to taking seriously part in a series for a season.

I fell into that trap (of taking the ROC seriously) once, when Heikki Kovalainen defeated Michael. I thought back then that Heikki was the second coming.
Meanwhile Michael has been debunked and Heikki - solid, but not brilliant.


ROC is not a serious a event just because it's so short. But a series which would be a true test of driving ability, would be just like ROC, with longer courses, more laps and a full season of GPs.

It's a crying shame we don't have a proper big money motorsport series with rules otherwise similar to ROC's.

#4278 ivand911

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Posted 06 August 2010 - 12:20

ROC is a fun event, it cannot be compared to taking seriously part in a series for a season.

I fell into that trap (of taking the ROC seriously) once, when Heikki Kovalainen defeated Michael. I thought back then that Heikki was the second coming.
Meanwhile Michael has been debunked and Heikki - solid, but not brilliant.

This is why they didn't invite him more. He didn't get first rule: Don't beat Michael. Only Matias Ekstrom can beat him. Now they invite DC, Button and Vettel.

Edited by ivand911, 06 August 2010 - 12:25.


#4279 Lifew12

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Posted 06 August 2010 - 12:22

In reality you buy Mercedes because you want Mercedes and you can buy one or two. Not because this and this driver drive for them. If they associate him with Ferrari, when they go to Mercedes dealership they will see his poster, and they will have explanation that he now drive for Mercedes Benz team. And he left Ferrari. Client will say this is very interesting and he will forget it 10 minutes after he leave with his new car.


You are absolutely right, which is why it's his performance rather than his name that is important.

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#4280 ivand911

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Posted 06 August 2010 - 12:32

You are absolutely right, which is why it's his performance rather than his name that is important.

No,this is why his name matter more than his performance. This is for Mercedes client I mean. Because he know the name and associate it with the car he want to buy. Maybe he don't know what is his recent performance. Maybe he knows. But, I can't answer here like client because Mercedes car is little expensive for me. :rolleyes: Or you think Nico with his better performance will sell more cars? Don't know about that. Need to see some Mercedes dealership to see which pictures are hanging there. But 7 titles are enough performance for every one. If you ask me Nico is lacking performance here?

Edited by ivand911, 06 August 2010 - 12:42.


#4281 aditya-now

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Posted 06 August 2010 - 12:32

You are absolutely right, which is why it's his performance rather than his name that is important.


Yes, as long as Michael keeps losing in the Silberpfeil the association with Michael's name and winning will always be with Ferrari, not with the grey marquee.

Add to that Michael's red helmet, and the association is perfect.


#4282 ivand911

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Posted 06 August 2010 - 12:37

Yes, as long as Michael keeps losing in the Silberpfeil the association with Michael's name and winning will always be with Ferrari, not with the grey marquee.

Add to that Michael's red helmet, and the association is perfect.

It will be nice they to start to win with this Silberpfiel. How they dare always to lose with it.


#4283 Lifew12

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Posted 06 August 2010 - 12:42

No,this is why his name matter more than his performance. This is for Mercedes client I mean. Because he know the name and associate it with the car he want to buy. Maybe he don't know what is his recent performance. Maybe he knows. But, I can't answer here like client because Mercedes car is little expensive for me. :rolleyes: Or you think Nico with his better performance will sell more cars? Don't know about that. Need to see some Mercedes dealership to see which pictures are hanging there.


I think you're getting a bit contradictory here, Ivan, with respect! In the last post you reckoned that a Mercedes driver does little for the sales of the car, which I entirely agree with. It's the car that sells. Michael Schumacher, as a name, is worth nothing if he isn't bringing in results. Mercedes didn't hire him so they could use his face on posters - they've got a pretty kid in Rosberg for that - but because he's a seven tiems world champion and 91 grand prix winner and they expected that to translate into success in their team.

It doesn't matter which pictures are hanging in Mercedes dealerships (for the record, in the one down the road from me the answer is one of Lewis Hamilton in a McLaren) but what results the drivers bring. It's no good pumping billions into F1 without getting results. This is why Mercedes will eventually consider whether paying for the name is worth when there are many other drivers who could do the job the same or (like Rosberg) better. A name, I'm afraid, has a limited shelf life, and I think Michaels 'use by' date is approaching quite quickly.

#4284 aditya-now

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Posted 06 August 2010 - 12:46

This is why they didn't invite him more. He didn't get first rule: Don't beat Michael. Only Matias Ekstrom can beat him. Now they invite DC, Button and Vettel.


Wow, you are quite critical of Michael. So even in the ROC he needs this protection that he used to have in his teams before Mercedes: "Don't beat Michael"
A very telling post of yours.


#4285 ivand911

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Posted 06 August 2010 - 12:55

I can understand why they have Lewis Hamilton in a McLaren where you live. Maybe in America or China or Argentina will be not Lewis. I edited my post with this: But 7 titles are enough performance for every one. If you ask me Nico is lacking performance here? We made it in the same time and you didn't see it.
P7 is enough performance for you? Sorry for me points and no wins and titles are not much performance. What performance bring last year Ferrari and McLaren. Maybe you also criticize them then, I don't know. You have every right of course. I imagine this: This is our driver Nico he have 94 points and he is very good. Client: How many titles he have or wins. OOO, he still don't have any of those, but he beat Schumacher. OO , Schumacher 7time world champion, he is driving for you. Why you didn't start with that?

#4286 ivand911

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Posted 06 August 2010 - 12:58

Wow, you are quite critical of Michael. So even in the ROC he needs this protection that he used to have in his teams before Mercedes: "Don't beat Michael"
A very telling post of yours.

I am happy ,you get the joke. :rotfl: Because last ROC wasn't big joke for DC, Button and Vettel.

Edited by ivand911, 06 August 2010 - 12:58.


#4287 Big Block 8

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Posted 06 August 2010 - 13:11

I am happy ,you get the joke. :rotfl: Because last ROC wasn't big joke for DC, Button and Vettel.


To be honest Vettel was clearly the quicker German driver in the team duels - in their deciding match Vettel just made a mistake and dropped out. Same with DC IIRC - DC was in front but a small mistake in the end put MS in front by a hair.

Of course MS won those two fairly that day - mistake is a mistake, but in a full "ROC season" Vettel would have been a clear winner and even DC looked like the faster one in the match between them.

#4288 Lifew12

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Posted 06 August 2010 - 13:18

I can understand why they have Lewis Hamilton in a McLaren where you live. Maybe in America or China or Argentina will be not Lewis.


Very true - I wasn't making a point with that, I was in fact quite surprised to see it.

I edited my post with this: But 7 titles are enough performance for every one. If you ask me Nico is lacking performance here? We made it in the same time and you didn't see it.
P7 is enough performance for you? Sorry for me points and no wins and titles are not much performance. What performance bring last year Ferrari and McLaren. Maybe you also criticize them then, I don't know. You have every right of course. I imagine this: This is our driver Nico he have 94 points and he is very good. Client: How many titles he have or wins. OOO, he still don't have any of those, but he beat Schumacher. OO , Schumacher 7time world champion, he is driving for you. Why you didn't start with that?


I see what you're saying, but those seven titles and 91 wins are not only in the past, they're not with Mercedes Benz! What you're suggesting they say is sort of this: 'Michael Schumacher, he was great when he drove for Ferrari, but he's not so good in a Mercedes Benz; his team mate, however, Nico Rosberg might not have won a race or a title, but he's doing pretty well!'

Doesn't really work, does it?

#4289 ivand911

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Posted 06 August 2010 - 13:31

Very true - I wasn't making a point with that, I was in fact quite surprised to see it.



I see what you're saying, but those seven titles and 91 wins are not only in the past, they're not with Mercedes Benz! What you're suggesting they say is sort of this: 'Michael Schumacher, he was great when he drove for Ferrari, but he's not so good in a Mercedes Benz; his team mate, however, Nico Rosberg might not have won a race or a title, but he's doing pretty well!'

Doesn't really work, does it?

This titles are his, this is his success, his achievement. Mercedes know very well that this titles are with Ferrari and Benetton. I don't think this bothers them at all. You look only for this moment. Which I think is wrong. Mercedes I hope is not here for a year only. Imagine two posters: one with some numbers against titles, wins and other poster with nothing against titles and wins. Points you get now in the end of the year will become one big 0. But titles and wins stay with you forever. And next year you will still have them, but you will start with 0 points. This is how I feel things. Sponsors, bosses have to decide what they want and if they are happy. I think there is people here that a more worry than them. Don't worry, be happy. :) In the end life is not fair.

Edited by ivand911, 06 August 2010 - 13:34.


#4290 Lifew12

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Posted 06 August 2010 - 13:36

You look only for this moment. Which I think is wrong.


This bit says it all, Ivan. I won't be the only one 'looking only for this moment'. Mercedes, as I;ve said, hired Michael Schumacher, the seven times champion and 91 race winner, because those statistics they thought would translate into more wins and more success. They did not, at any point, expect him to be beaten, consistently, by Rosberg! Those titles and wins are in the past, not now, and as such they are of no use whatsoever to Mercedes. Would you continue paying him X million because he won races years ago? I don't think - realistically - you would.

#4291 Dolph

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Posted 06 August 2010 - 13:40

This bit says it all, Ivan. I won't be the only one 'looking only for this moment'. Mercedes, as I;ve said, hired Michael Schumacher, the seven times champion and 91 race winner, because those statistics they thought would translate into more wins and more success. They did not, at any point, expect him to be beaten, consistently, by Rosberg! Those titles and wins are in the past, not now, and as such they are of no use whatsoever to Mercedes. Would you continue paying him X million because he won races years ago? I don't think - realistically - you would.


If I were Mercedes the answer would be "YES!". MS is still hugely popular in Germany and all over the world. He receives a great deal of media attention (much more than Hill and Villeneuve when they fell from prime). Mercedes can use MS' image to their favour and in advertisements. Just like they have done with Ralf Schumacher in DTM who has very lousy results but is kept due to his popularity. Sure, Mercedes could drop MS at one point but not until they have give the whole deal a good milking to support their PR&marketing effort.

Furthermore, Michael has a history of good car development, ability to give feedback of very high quality and he has done "IT" 7 times, he has been in the top for 15 years. BAR/Honda/Brawn/Mercedes-Benz team has done it only once and been at the top twice. He instills hope and confidence.

Edited by Dolph, 06 August 2010 - 13:44.


#4292 aditya-now

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Posted 06 August 2010 - 13:40

I am happy ,you get the joke. :rotfl: Because last ROC wasn't big joke for DC, Button and Vettel.


I think you are a sobski!

#4293 carbonfibre

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Posted 06 August 2010 - 13:45

My statement was in reply to the other geezer who stated M Schumacher's return was a return to the good old days. Most of the folk that have seen Grand Prix racing from its early days tend to have a fairly low opinion of M Schumacher.

Yes but is that because of his driving skills or other things? F1 evolves and will always keep evolving. Maybe for people that have been following F1 for a very long time it evolved in a kind of way that they don't like.


#4294 ivand911

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Posted 06 August 2010 - 13:50

This bit says it all, Ivan. I won't be the only one 'looking only for this moment'. Mercedes, as I;ve said, hired Michael Schumacher, the seven times champion and 91 race winner, because those statistics they thought would translate into more wins and more success. They did not, at any point, expect him to be beaten, consistently, by Rosberg! Those titles and wins are in the past, not now, and as such they are of no use whatsoever to Mercedes. Would you continue paying him X million because he won races years ago? I don't think - realistically - you would.

It is not up to us to decide. We will see if they continue to pay him. I have no problem with both ways. He also don't have. He own 4-5 F1 cars he can ride them as much as he want. Even if he is not in F1. I just don't see your problem? You think he lied Mercedes? They didn't lie to him with this car, did Rosberg win something that I didn't see? If you have problem, tell them, nobody can help you here. For me Mercedes are in wining situation , sponsors pay his salary, they also pay Nico salary? And this is sponsors who mainly come because of him. What else, only with his name they make money. I think they look at performance from another angle. Who will win with this car? How wins you want will come? If Button was in this car, what would be result against Nico? He have problems even with McLaren.


#4295 man

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Posted 06 August 2010 - 13:51

Yes but is that because of his driving skills or other things? F1 evolves and will always keep evolving. Maybe for people that have been following F1 for a very long time it evolved in a kind of way that they don't like.


Yes I agree. Not exactly sure what your point is though, I haven't said anything contrary.

#4296 ivand911

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Posted 06 August 2010 - 13:54

I think you are a sobski!

What this mean. This is some guy? Because I didn't find this word in Dictionary.


#4297 Panktej

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Posted 06 August 2010 - 13:55

This bit says it all, Ivan. I won't be the only one 'looking only for this moment'. Mercedes, as I;ve said, hired Michael Schumacher, the seven times champion and 91 race winner, because those statistics they thought would translate into more wins and more success. They did not, at any point, expect him to be beaten, consistently, by Rosberg! Those titles and wins are in the past, not now, and as such they are of no use whatsoever to Mercedes. Would you continue paying him X million because he won races years ago? I don't think - realistically - you would.


1st thing is to look, when was MSC signed by Mercedes, and when did Mercedes started working on their 2010 car?

MSC was out for 3 seasons, and AFAIK, Kimi Raikkonen struggled initially at Ferrari.. it took him half a season to know his Ferrari...

The best time to evaluate MSC will be the year 2011...

There will be no excuses or whinning... In 2011, if he does not manage to beat his team mate, then yes, Mercesdes will look for other options... :)

#4298 man

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Posted 06 August 2010 - 13:58

If I were Mercedes the answer would be "YES!". MS is still hugely popular in Germany and all over the world. He receives a great deal of media attention (much more than Hill and Villeneuve when they fell from prime). Mercedes can use MS' image to their favour and in advertisements. Just like they have done with Ralf Schumacher in DTM who has very lousy results but is kept due to his popularity. Sure, Mercedes could drop MS at one point but not until they have give the whole deal a good milking to support their PR&marketing effort.

Furthermore, Michael has a history of good car development, ability to give feedback of very high quality and he has done "IT" 7 times, he has been in the top for 15 years. BAR/Honda/Brawn/Mercedes-Benz team has done it only once and been at the top twice. He instills hope and confidence.


The question is: do you recruit somebody that can drive quickly cleanly and get results or do you recruit somebody who is just the opposite but is famous?

M Schumacher is not getting results shows no sign of getting results and is holding Merc back If we use His teammate as the benchmark. The worst thing is, merc were probably expecting Rosberg to be the supporting driver but M Schumachers performances have been so poor Rosberg is now carrying the hopes and burden of Mercedes GP on his shoulders alone.

#4299 Dolph

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Posted 06 August 2010 - 14:04

The question is: do you recruit somebody that can drive quickly cleanly and get results or do you recruit somebody who is just the opposite but is famous?


Well, there are two seats in the team. They can do both.

M Schumacher is not getting results shows no sign of getting results and is holding Merc back If we use His teammate as the benchmark.


Currently, yes. See below.

The worst thing is, merc were probably expecting Rosberg to be the supporting driver but M Schumachers performances have been so poor Rosberg is now carrying the hopes and burden of Mercedes GP on his shoulders alone.


Now you are just speaking the obvious. But that doesn't mean that they wouldn't have hired MS even if they knew he was way off his prime. Jus tlike I said before. MS is freakin popular. Just look at this BB. Who's thread has got the most posts!? Not the thread about Vettel, Alonso or Hamilton.


You guys seem to think that results are the only thing that matters for car manufacturers. This is wrong. They come to F1 to get maximum value for their brands. Whether it be through results or the name of a racing driver doesn't really matter. Just look at Valentino Rossi's association with F1. If he'd come in he'd be way off the pace but Ferrari are continuing the publicity stunts to associate the names.

Edited by Dolph, 06 August 2010 - 14:07.


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#4300 man

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Posted 06 August 2010 - 14:12

Well, there are two seats in the team. They can do both.



Currently, yes. See below.



Now you are just speaking the obvious. But that doesn't mean that they wouldn't have hired MS even if they knew he was way off his prime. Jus tlike I said before. MS is freakin popular. Just look at this BB. Who's thread has got the most posts!? Not the thread about Vettel, Alonso or Hamilton.


You guys seem to think that results are the only thing that matters for car manufacturers. This is wrong. They come to F1 to get maximum value for their brands. Whether it be through results or the name of a racing driver doesn't really matter. Just look at Valentino Rossi's association with F1. If he'd come in he'd be way off the pace but Ferrari are continuing the publicity stunts to associate the names.


An airline receives publicity after a crash, does that help their cause? The same applies to M Schumacher at the Hungaroring, trailing well down the order and he then pulls that move that makes headlines for Merc for the wrong reasons. Being talked about doesn't equate to popularity. Osama is mentioned quite a bit in the west, he is talked far more than Mandela is today...Do westerners in general prefer to be associated with Mandela or Osama?

Edited by man, 06 August 2010 - 15:31.