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#4301 aditya-now

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Posted 06 August 2010 - 14:32

It does ring a bell with me - don´t worry
But would you think, that for this type of comparsion, we should establish some kind of reference time frame?
Post WW2, since the 1960, since 1970 etc.

I would say let´s start by 1980, it should give a large enough sample size, but also makes sure that it is not too far away to remember.
But it´s up to you, we can start with Fangio and Caracciola if you like.

Thanks again


Strictly speaken "the good old racing spirit" changed from the days of the gentlemen racers (1930s, 1950s - before these days I personally know nil about motorsport) to the times of Jim Clark, Graham Hill, Jackie Stewart and Jochen Rindt, which is for me personally "the good old days" and full of "spirit". The aura of the races in those days was incredible.

Think of Monaco 1970!

Then other periods full of "classic spirit" were Fittipaldi in the Lotus 72 (the emergence of the JPS Lotus) and the Lauda/Reggazoni era at Ferrari. Andretti/Peterson in the Black Beauty. Then the Villeneuve days from 1978-1982. Breathtaking of course Dijon 1979. Who would not call that "the good old racing spirit", even if you are born in the 90s!

The wing car era.

The turbo era - watch Senna in the JPS Lotus-Renault of 1985 hardly being able to keep this beast on the road on a straight - with Martin Brundle confessing just on the last Top Gear with the Senna documentation that he would not have been able to keep that beast on the road himself. (In that context, watch Lewis's reaction when he was allowed to drive Senna's 1988 McLaren, the last of the turbo era - young Hamilton was overawed with it. Watch the expression on the faces of Clarkson, May and the whole audience when the last pictures of Senna in the documentation on Ayrton had faded - people were stunned right there in the BBC studio in July 2010 when they felt the spirit that Senna docu exuded).

Going through quali with 1500 hps in the turbo-charged cars!!!
Give Schumacher such a weapon and he not only kills others but also himself!

Piquet/Mansell in 1986/1987 was also quite something.

Then of course that whole era 1985-1989 when Senna/Prost/Piquet/Mansell were showing that F1 was the pinnacle of motorsport and not just a monoculture of one team/driver with rules and tyres made to their liking and competition being constrained.

These were some of the eras that represent classic racing spirit to me - if you have any ways of obtaining video materials on said periods/races I am sure you will enjoy as well, even if you were born in 1998.

In the last 15 years I´d point to 1998/1999/2000, the Hakkinen years*, for a reprise of that spirit. Then 2005 (Raikkonen/Alonso, especially Japan 2005), 2006 (Alonso/Schumacher* was classic) and since then the Hamilton-Alonso period, which we will probably (hopefully) continue to enjoy for another number of years. Also Montoya, when he came around in 2001 and 2002 exude something of that spirit, but this was of course overshadowed by the appalling feeling the whole Ferrari/Schumacher saga exuded.

So there has been and there is classic racing spirit. Only IMHO Schumacher is the one aberration, the one who represents the spirit of F1 the least - in a way it has been a Formula Schumacher for those very special years, no matter on which side of the fence you sit.



* I think Hakkinen and Alonso brought out the best in Michael, that's why I rate these years above all other of the Michael years. No wonder Michael himself and Mika enjoyed their rivalry with each other, and with Alonso Michael had found the first young challenger who defeated him - regs changes (Monza 2006) and politics aside (Monza 2006) - a double unfair attempt to curb Fernando's WDC chances - but even this last rise of the Schumacher mafia (add Monaco 2006 qualifying for measure) could not prevent the new era from starting. In my mind, Interlagos 2006 had been one of the best races of Michael for a long time - maybe his last great race altogether.

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#4302 chrisblades85

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Posted 06 August 2010 - 14:38

I think he needs to stop being happy to be there.

#4303 aditya-now

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Posted 06 August 2010 - 14:42

I agree Nico is better than Michael in MGP car. I agree for you, don't know why is that, I usually don't take decision before knowing the facts. Where truth is just that this car/tyres combo suit Nico usual driving style much more that it suit Michael usual style. But to make you happy I agree.


A good one.

Now I know where you are from. You are from Gabrovo!

So you are not sure why it is that you agree with me, just to make me happy! :love:
Usually you don't take a decision before knowing the facts? Well, the facts are Rosberg - Schumi 9 : 2 in qualifying, Rosberg - Schumi 94 : 38 in the WDC standings and Rosberg - Schumi 8 : 3 in race classification (retirements counted).

So it is not so unwise of you to agree with me that Nico is better than Michael in MGP car.

Yet I know what the problem is: you still do not know the excuses for Michael to justify his terrible showing this year. This is what you call "I usually don't take decision before knowing the facts".

#4304 ivand911

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Posted 06 August 2010 - 14:50

A good one.

Now I know where you are from. You are from Gabrovo!

So you are not sure why it is that you agree with me, just to make me happy! :love:
Usually you don't take a decision before knowing the facts? Well, the facts are Rosberg - Schumi 9 : 2 in qualifying, Rosberg - Schumi 94 : 38 in the WDC standings and Rosberg - Schumi 8 : 3 in race classification (retirements counted).

So it is not so unwise of you to agree with me that Nico is better than Michael in MGP car.

Yet I know what the problem is: you still do not know the excuses for Michael to justify his terrible showing this year. This is what you call "I usually don't take decision before knowing the facts".


I am from Ruse.
I don't know the facts what happen in the team, but I know Ross knows so no problem there. I know you don't like to go in details much. What you see is enough for you. Little first signal behaviour if you ask me. But that is you. I want to see what is below surface. But that is me. I ask same questions in this same post and you didn't answer. Can you explain me why they have different set up in Qualy in Hungary? Nico have set up for qualy , Michael have set up for race. Who could finish better in Qualy? How to expect similar results with different set up? Any idea? What was MGP team thinking to experiment with Michael set up? Why, when they found good set up with Nico, they didn't use the same set up for Michael. They don't need points or better starting position, experiments/tests are more important?

Edited by ivand911, 06 August 2010 - 15:03.


#4305 aditya-now

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Posted 06 August 2010 - 14:59

I think he needs to stop being happy to be there.


Point well taken.

As long as Schumacher plays "happy Michael" after his abysmal performances there will be no improvement.
He needs to stop to be happy just to be there. He needs to dig deeply and stop playing theatre off the track as well as ruthless & desperate Michael on the track.
Then, together with Pirelli and the 2011 Mercedes there is the glimmer of a hope that he still might "come back".

Then of course, there is still Rosberg.


#4306 aditya-now

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Posted 06 August 2010 - 15:02

Can you explain me why they have different set up in Qualy in Hungary? Nico have set up for qualy , Michael have set up for race. This why who could finish better in Qualy? How to expect similar results with different set up? Any idea? What was MGP team thinking to experiment with Michael set up? Why when they found good set up with Nico, they didn't use the same set up for Michael. They don't need points, experiments/tests are more important?


So you want me to provide you with excuses why Michael is so bad this year?

#4307 ivand911

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Posted 06 August 2010 - 15:17

So you want me to provide you with excuses why Michael is so bad this year?

Different set up is good excuse for me.


#4308 flyer121

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Posted 06 August 2010 - 15:24

Strictly speaken "the good old racing spirit" changed from the days of the gentlemen racers (1930s, 1950s - before these days I personally know nil about motorsport) to the times of Jim Clark, Graham Hill, Jackie Stewart and Jochen Rindt, which is for me personally "the good old days" and full of "spirit". The aura of the races in those days was incredible.
....
So there has been and there is classic racing spirit. Only IMHO Schumacher is the one aberration, the one who represents the spirit of F1 the least - in a way it has been a Formula Schumacher for those very special years, no matter on which side of the fence you sit.

* I think Hakkinen and Alonso brought out the best in Michael, that's why I rate these years above all other of the Michael years. No wonder Michael himself and Mika enjoyed their rivalry with each other, and with Alonso Michael had found the first young challenger who defeated him - regs changes (Monza 2006) and politics aside (Monza 2006) - a double unfair attempt to curb Fernando's WDC chances - but even this last rise of the Schumacher mafia (add Monaco 2006 qualifying for measure) could not prevent the new era from starting. In my mind, Interlagos 2006 had been one of the best races of Michael for a long time - maybe his last great race altogether.


Although a little subjective , it is a great analysis of eras in F1.

One thing is "for sure" Schumi -Ferrari (not pre Ferrari) era is definitely the most forgettable.

For me F1 was 5 years too late to start the century !

#4309 aditya-now

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Posted 06 August 2010 - 15:28

Different set up is good excuse for me.


That's a much better basis for discussion, Ivan, well done.

What I don't get is that a Michael Schumacher, in F1 from 1991 - 2010 (don't forget, he was also under contract with Ferrari from 2007 - 2009) would suddenly have forgotten how to set up a car? A seven time WDC?
Also the thing with race strategies: if he were a genuine 7 time WDC, how could he consistently mess up his race strategies? Has he no authority to make his own calls like Button and Alonso?

How come a relative young driver like Rosberg, in the sport only from 2006 - 2010 gets these tasks settled in a much more professional manner?

These are interesting questions, and I also don't know the answers. I only know one thing: all these topics make Michael look less and less credible.
And I'm not even speaking about his on-track behaviour.


#4310 aditya-now

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Posted 06 August 2010 - 15:29

For me F1 was 5 years too late to start the century !


Well said! :up:


#4311 Number62

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Posted 06 August 2010 - 15:32

I am from Ruse.
I don't know the facts what happen in the team, but I know Ross knows so no problem there. I know you don't like to go in details much. What you see is enough for you. Little first signal behaviour if you ask me. But that is you. I want to see what is below surface. But that is me. I ask same questions in this same post and you didn't answer. Can you explain me why they have different set up in Qualy in Hungary? Nico have set up for qualy , Michael have set up for race. Who could finish better in Qualy? How to expect similar results with different set up? Any idea? What was MGP team thinking to experiment with Michael set up? Why, when they found good set up with Nico, they didn't use the same set up for Michael. They don't need points or better starting position, experiments/tests are more important?


Everyone's set up is different.

Every setup is a compromise between quali performance and race performance

Every driver works with their engineer to improve setup so that they can go faster (than their team mates)

If the set up is slow, it's (mostly) Michael's fault, in comparison to his team mate. We know how fast the car CAN go but Michael can't make it go that fast. I think you know all this already, yes?

#4312 ivand911

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Posted 06 August 2010 - 15:37

What is Nico excuse for not wining anything until now?

#4313 Number62

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Posted 06 August 2010 - 15:39

What is Nico excuse for not wining anything until now?


What's that got to do with why Michael isn't as good as him in 2010?

#4314 ivand911

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Posted 06 August 2010 - 15:40

What's that got to do with why Michael isn't as good as him in 2010?

If good for you is p7, I am OK. Michael is one place behind p9.

Edited by ivand911, 06 August 2010 - 15:41.


#4315 Number62

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Posted 06 August 2010 - 15:48

If good for you is p7, I am OK. Michael is one place behind p9.


I don't know where you got those assumptions from.

P7 is not great. But it's better than P9.

#4316 aditya-now

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Posted 06 August 2010 - 15:49

If good for you is p7, I am OK. Michael is one place behind p9.



Well, the facts are Rosberg - Schumi 9 : 2 in qualifying, Rosberg - Schumi 94 : 38 in the WDC standings and Rosberg - Schumi 8 : 3 in race classification (retirements counted).

You can call that good, if you want. Then Michael is a little "less good".
Or you can call it bad, than Michael is even "more bad".

What you Schumacher apologists don't get is that whatever bad you say about Nico, it reflects even worse on Michael...

#4317 man

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Posted 06 August 2010 - 16:14

Well, the facts are Rosberg - Schumi 9 : 2 in qualifying, Rosberg - Schumi 94 : 38 in the WDC standings and Rosberg - Schumi 8 : 3 in race classification (retirements counted).

You can call that good, if you want. Then Michael is a little "less good".
Or you can call it bad, than Michael is even "more bad".

What you Schumacher apologists don't get is that whatever bad you say about Nico, it reflects even worse on Michael...



Exactly, until M Schumacher matches Rosberg...no sign of it all...M Schumacher is the weakest link....

and pretty soon it will be "goodbye" too.

#4318 ivand911

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Posted 06 August 2010 - 16:46

Such a good "discussion" here, but if you want to see really good discussion check this out. Much more quality.
http://www.f1technic...c...?f=1&t=8786

#4319 SparkPlug

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Posted 06 August 2010 - 17:54

Such a good "discussion" here, but if you want to see really good discussion check this out. Much more quality.
http://www.f1technic...c...?f=1&t=8786

I am part of that discussion too (wont reveal who I am though :) )

Ivan, please, for christ sake, dont introduce that thread, I am mortally afraid some people from here will jump in there and ruin a great forum and a superb thread.

Those who seem to keep harping upon the same thing in a thousand posts please, learn a thing or two about a good discussion if you can :down:

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#4320 ivand911

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Posted 06 August 2010 - 18:51

I am part of that discussion too (wont reveal who I am though :) )

Ivan, please, for christ sake, dont introduce that thread, I am mortally afraid some people from here will jump in there and ruin a great forum and a superb thread.

Those who seem to keep harping upon the same thing in a thousand posts please, learn a thing or two about a good discussion if you can :down:

I can see what you mean. Send me message if you want me to delete my post. You will need to delete your post after this. Very good thread and forum, also other good threads about MGP car and team. Very refreshing. Much good stuff, less BS.

Edited by ivand911, 06 August 2010 - 18:55.


#4321 Chezrome

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Posted 06 August 2010 - 19:53

I am part of that discussion too (wont reveal who I am though :) )

Ivan, please, for christ sake, dont introduce that thread, I am mortally afraid some people from here will jump in there and ruin a great forum and a superb thread.

Those who seem to keep harping upon the same thing in a thousand posts please, learn a thing or two about a good discussion if you can :down:


That discussion is okay, but nothing angelic.

On topic. I think that the remarks of Ross Brawn about the tyres this year give a pretty good hint why Schumacher is struggling. According to me, the great strength of Schumacher was always that he could drive fast continuously, even on degrading tyres. Schumacher himself once said: 'I think my biggest talent is feeling where the grip is.' Brawn seems to indicate that the tyres of today are flatliners. The grip is there - or not.

Furthermore, I think that Schumacher (and he has proved that) is someone who can balance the car with the throttle through the corner. I'm not an expert, but my feeling this is easier when the car is light (with a small fueltank) than with a heavy car (filled to the brim at the start).

To be clear: I do not want to take anything away from Schumachers talent or achievements in the past. But I think it's still true that drivers have a style of driving that can be suitable for certain cars or rules. I seriously doubt, for example, that Lauda's comeback would have been a success if between his departure and his comeback 'mandatory' pitstops would have been introduced.

#4322 slaveceru

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Posted 06 August 2010 - 22:13

That's a much better basis for discussion, Ivan, well done.

What I don't get is that a Michael Schumacher, in F1 from 1991 - 2010 (don't forget, he was also under contract with Ferrari from 2007 - 2009) would suddenly have forgotten how to set up a car? A seven time WDC?
Also the thing with race strategies: if he were a genuine 7 time WDC, how could he consistently mess up his race strategies? Has he no authority to make his own calls like Button and Alonso?

How come a relative young driver like Rosberg, in the sport only from 2006 - 2010 gets these tasks settled in a much more professional manner?

These are interesting questions, and I also don't know the answers. I only know one thing: all these topics make Michael look less and less credible.
And I'm not even speaking about his on-track behaviour.

He has never said that he has forgotten how to set up the car. He is experimenting how to set up the car and he needs to do it because he said that he has completely changed his driving style. Do you really think he is bothered where Nico is in the WDC standing I do not think so. He will experiment with set up as long as he needs to find a solution that works for him and his new driving style.

Edited by slaveceru, 06 August 2010 - 22:34.


#4323 slaveceru

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Posted 06 August 2010 - 22:25

Very true - I wasn't making a point with that, I was in fact quite surprised to see it.



I see what you're saying, but those seven titles and 91 wins are not only in the past, they're not with Mercedes Benz! What you're suggesting they say is sort of this: 'Michael Schumacher, he was great when he drove for Ferrari, but he's not so good in a Mercedes Benz; his team mate, however, Nico Rosberg might not have won a race or a title, but he's doing pretty well!'

Doesn't really work, does it?

Did you forget that there are also other sponsors in Mercedes F1 racing team and this sponsors care if Schumacher is driving for this team and yes also Mercedes wants a German driver in their team and who is the best known German driver Schumacher. I have read it somewhere that in the team where the car manufacturer who is new in F1 racing is making all the decisions who to buy to develop the car or which driver to buy to drive for them will soon parish into the dust in this modern type of F1. So all the decision about Schumacher future career in Mercedes F1 team lay in the capable hands of Ross and Hough.

Edited by slaveceru, 06 August 2010 - 22:33.


#4324 Yorkie

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Posted 06 August 2010 - 23:11

What is Nico excuse for not wining anything until now?

Probably the car, are Williams winning races this year?

#4325 baddog

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Posted 06 August 2010 - 23:32

Probably the car, are Williams winning races this year?

Is that a good excuse for getting nothing better than a lucky 3rd in the WC car? I mean sheesh ;)

#4326 black magic

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Posted 06 August 2010 - 23:58

scumacher and mercedes are committed to each other with pirelli on the horizon.

if schumacher cannot deliver next year then he and mercedes will part ways with mutual agreement.

sadly I have little faith that mercedes has the technical staff or resources to bridge the gap to red bull

despite changing tyres, the ridiculous reintroduction of kers unless rbr is found to be running illegally then merceds still has a 2 second gap to close and at the hungagoring. thats more than front wing - thats a complete package and an eternity in f1 terms. there has been little evidence of even constructive improvement. they make changes then pull them off then put some back on.

lets face it, the team technically is lost, possibly even more than michael.

is michael lost? yes frankly he is at the moment and he is starting to make wrong decisions under pressure. witness if true his comments about setting the car up for the race. this was hungagoring where overtaking supposedly neigh impossible. qualifying IS the race as at monaco. essentially he was telling us he gave up or had no idea what to do. you only have to see some of the weird pitwall decisions re stops and strategies to suggest the team has not much more idea and when under pressure and struggling not surprisingly it starts to get worse and worse.

the reality is the testing ban has in effect locked in the season at the start. to overcome a big headstart is neigh impossible. mclaren had made in rpads and yet come the business end of the championship and they are light yrs behind rbr

begs the question of why the enforced break now. exactly what are they resting from now that testing banned - a hangover from the days of testing and now defunct

#4327 as65p

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Posted 07 August 2010 - 07:34

...
begs the question of why the enforced break now. exactly what are they resting from now that testing banned - a hangover from the days of testing and now defunct


Ahem, the break has the totally unrelated and very different reason of allowing especially the guys down the ranks (mechanics, etc.) a genuine holiday.

We could already hear Hamilton "encouraging" his guys to think about his car while lying on the beach, so you're certainly in good company not caring for such trivialities.  ;)

Edited by as65p, 07 August 2010 - 07:37.


#4328 aditya-now

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Posted 07 August 2010 - 08:19

I am part of that discussion too (wont reveal who I am though :) )

Ivan, please, for christ sake, dont introduce that thread, I am mortally afraid some people from here will jump in there and ruin a great forum and a superb thread.

Those who seem to keep harping upon the same thing in a thousand posts please, learn a thing or two about a good discussion if you can :down:


Ah, I think I will inscribe in F1technical as well, people there need some brush-up! :lol:

By the way, the views of the posters there go very much in line with what we think as well - not possible to hide the truth.... ;)

In other news: the print edition of motorsport-aktuell has an article on Nick Heidfeld being the official test driver for the Pirelli tyres of 2011.
Not with the Mercedes GP, but with Toyota!!!

Nonetheless, as already indicated, Michael Schumacher and team will try to benefit from being as close as possible to the tyre developement for next year.
One can wonder, though, if Quick Nick will give away anything or if he will influence the development of the tyre in a way that benefits Schumi.

#4329 Lifew12

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Posted 07 August 2010 - 09:30

If I were Mercedes the answer would be "YES!".



I doubt that very much. From your point of view, as an F1 fan etc, I can see where you're coming from, but from a commercial point of view it makes no sense. You would pay tens of millions for a name because it's famous? Forgive me for pointing out the obvious, and respect where it's due, but Mercedes Benz is hardly a minor player in world automobile arenas, it doesn'rt need to invest in fame. What Mercedes were doing when they hired Schumacher was paying for a winner; they bought this great driver (which he undoubtedly was) who could develop cars, inspire a team, run rings round the rest (Ross, earlier this year, said 'he's still better than 99% of the field) and who habitually wins races and titles. They didn't buy a name to put on posters, merchandise and so on as the three pointed star already carries that cache. If you were a sentimental man with a sense of recent F1 history you may well be saying 'YES!' but if you're the bean counter, with an eye on your investment and profit margins, you would be saying 'why are we paying X million for a man who was once very good but is now being shown up by a driver most reckon is never going to be anything more than pretty decent'?

Don't get me wrong, I was truly looking forward to a Michael 'of old' taking it to the new kids on the block, but only the very foolish can possibly say that's what we've got.


#4330 britishtrident

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Posted 07 August 2010 - 09:30

The question really is will the Mercedes suits ask Norbert to push him out before the end of the current season ? as MS is an ever increasing embarrasment to the Mercedes brand on the international market.

Also after the shame of Hungaroring Schumacher can no longer be considered suitable for the FIA F1 post that Jean Todt was keeping open for him.

#4331 Lifew12

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Posted 07 August 2010 - 09:52

Did you forget that there are also other sponsors in Mercedes F1 racing team and this sponsors care if Schumacher is driving for this team


The sponsors care if the team is winning or not, too. Sponsors, no matter who they are, are not going to pay up eternally for a driver who isn't delivering, no matter what his name is or what he's done in the past.

#4332 valachus

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Posted 07 August 2010 - 10:06

I doubt that very much. From your point of view, as an F1 fan etc, I can see where you're coming from, but from a commercial point of view it makes no sense. You would pay tens of millions for a name because it's famous? Forgive me for pointing out the obvious, and respect where it's due, but Mercedes Benz is hardly a minor player in world automobile arenas, it doesn'rt need to invest in fame. What Mercedes were doing when they hired Schumacher was paying for a winner; they bought this great driver (which he undoubtedly was) who could develop cars, inspire a team, run rings round the rest (Ross, earlier this year, said 'he's still better than 99% of the field) and who habitually wins races and titles. They didn't buy a name to put on posters, merchandise and so on as the three pointed star already carries that cache. If you were a sentimental man with a sense of recent F1 history you may well be saying 'YES!' but if you're the bean counter, with an eye on your investment and profit margins, you would be saying 'why are we paying X million for a man who was once very good but is now being shown up by a driver most reckon is never going to be anything more than pretty decent'?


At the end of the day, the exposure that Mercedes gets from its association with Schumacher is infinitely bigger than the one that BMW, Honda or Toyota got during their entire stay as manufacturer teams in F1. As did Renault with Alonso when they got him back from McLaren. Michael is instantly recognisable around the planet, helmet on or off. A pity that the MGP team is nothing but a refurbished and updated Tyrell crew, but I suppose that the bean counters in Stuttgart are, by now, well aware of that. They must also be aware that BMW went the Kubica + Heidfeld route, arguably quick drivers but media neutral characters... and they are no longer in the F1 business.
It was clear since mid season last year that the team got a very lucky break with the DDD and that they were slowly descending to their traditional rank of 4-5th fastest, from which they started this year, and obviously while the no testing rules have some cost reducing effects, they also place the hierarchy enforcement role in the hands of FIA, the only factor with a say in how some developments are allowed and how some others aren't.

Edited by valachus, 07 August 2010 - 10:10.


#4333 Lifew12

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Posted 07 August 2010 - 10:13

At the end of the day, the exposure that Mercedes gets from its association with Schumacher is infinitely bigger than the one that BMW, Honda or Toyota got during their entire stay as manufacturer teams in F1.


Oh, I have no doubt about that at all, but the exposure they wanted when they hired Michael Schumacher was one that came with success. Mercedes, or anyone, isn't going to go on investing in a name that is rapidly becoming associated with past successes rather than current. Even on here his fans are prone to tell everyone how he has won seven titles and 91 races, and he has - we all know that - but what about this year? Mercedes wants his name to be associated with its success today, not Ferrari's half a decade ago.

#4334 valachus

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Posted 07 August 2010 - 10:25

Oh, I have no doubt about that at all, but the exposure they wanted when they hired Michael Schumacher was one that came with success. Mercedes, or anyone, isn't going to go on investing in a name that is rapidly becoming associated with past successes rather than current. Even on here his fans are prone to tell everyone how he has won seven titles and 91 races, and he has - we all know that - but what about this year? Mercedes wants his name to be associated with its success today, not Ferrari's half a decade ago.


Then get the guy a car at least capable of making front row of the grid on a regular basis :)) Are you saying that MS is to blame for the abysmal tactics and technical performance? MGP has the same engine as Force India and McLaren but it wouldn't seem so, by looking at the speedtrap figures. :wave:

#4335 Lifew12

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Posted 07 August 2010 - 10:28

Then get the guy a car at least capable of making front row of the grid on a regular basis :)) Are you saying that MS is to blame for the abysmal tactics and technical performance? MGP has the same engine as Force India and McLaren but it wouldn't seem so, by looking at the speedtrap figures. :wave:


Am I saying he's to blame for 'abysmal tactics and technical performance'? No, of course not. Am I saying he's not delivering compared to his much cheaper and less highly rated team mate? yes, I am. As is anyone who is honest with themselves.



#4336 ivand911

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Posted 07 August 2010 - 12:00

Am I saying he's to blame for 'abysmal tactics and technical performance'? No, of course not. Am I saying he's not delivering compared to his much cheaper and less highly rated team mate? yes, I am. As is anyone who is honest with themselves.

If you throw away champions in every sport, if they don't deliver 6 months or 1 year or more. How many champions you will have left? There wouldn't be any champions in F1 too if you throw them after one bad year. Tell me, who will be still here? Even Senna have bad years? Some time you lose motivation when you know your car is not capable of wining, that you have to fight for 5-6(don't know if this is the case). There are reasons why Rosberg beat him, and Ross and Haug definitely know them. Because you have opinion, don't mean Mercedes bosses think that way. We hear what you think, it is normal to have opinion, we all hear it 5-6 times. Trust the bosses, if you don't trust Michael. As you think they sign him to win races and titles. Can anyone win something with this car? If not, who's fault is that? Other people also have right to have opinion.

Edited by ivand911, 07 August 2010 - 12:01.


#4337 Lifew12

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Posted 07 August 2010 - 12:30

If you throw away champions in every sport, if they don't deliver 6 months or 1 year or more. How many champions you will have left? There wouldn't be any champions in F1 too if you throw them after one bad year. Tell me, who will be still here? Even Senna have bad years? Some time you lose motivation when you know your car is not capable of wining, that you have to fight for 5-6(don't know if this is the case). There are reasons why Rosberg beat him, and Ross and Haug definitely know them. Because you have opinion, don't mean Mercedes bosses think that way. We hear what you think, it is normal to have opinion, we all hear it 5-6 times. Trust the bosses, if you don't trust Michael. As you think they sign him to win races and titles. Can anyone win something with this car? If not, who's fault is that? Other people also have right to have opinion.


All good points, Ivan, and others are - as you say - entitled to their opinion, but much of what I read isn't opinion at all, it's hope and belief.

If you 'throw away' champions new ones come along; Michael walked away a few years ago, and the world didn't implode.

I must say it's not that I 'think' they signed him to win races and titles, but that it's a fact that's why they signed him! Why else do you bring back a man who had been away from teh sport for three years, if not because you think he will win?

Also, when did Senna have a bad year?

#4338 ivand911

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Posted 07 August 2010 - 12:47

All good points, Ivan, and others are - as you say - entitled to their opinion, but much of what I read isn't opinion at all, it's hope and belief.

If you 'throw away' champions new ones come along; Michael walked away a few years ago, and the world didn't implode.

I must say it's not that I 'think' they signed him to win races and titles, but that it's a fact that's why they signed him! Why else do you bring back a man who had been away from teh sport for three years, if not because you think he will win?

Also, when did Senna have a bad year?

You, miss again small fact that this car is not capable of wining anything? Michael have more chance to win something with his own Benetton B195, than with this car. If you ask Senna every year where he didn't won was bad year. This is my opinion from how all describe him as competitor. But he for sure was not happy, when he didn't win.


#4339 slaveceru

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Posted 07 August 2010 - 13:56

The sponsors care if the team is winning or not, too. Sponsors, no matter who they are, are not going to pay up eternally for a driver who isn't delivering, no matter what his name is or what he's done in the past.

:rotfl:
This is most stupid answer I have ever read it. The sponsors in every sport are paying the big stars for years after they do not deliver the results or prior ending there career and for living legends the sponsors are willing to pay them even when they retire from the sport and F1 racing is no exception.

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#4340 Fortymark

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Posted 07 August 2010 - 14:10

You, miss again small fact that this car is not capable of wining anything? Michael have more chance to win something with his own Benetton B195, than with this car. If you ask Senna every year where he didn't won was bad year. This is my opinion from how all describe him as competitor. But he for sure was not happy, when he didn't win.


Rosberg could have won the China GP if not for a small mistake which let Button through.
In Monaco they seemed to have the pace for pole but both drivers made mistakes on there last
laps.

#4341 ivand911

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Posted 07 August 2010 - 14:32

Rosberg could have won the China GP if not for a small mistake which let Button through.
In Monaco they seemed to have the pace for pole but both drivers made mistakes on there last
laps.


I didn't know Nico finished second in China. If Michael didn't break his leg in 1999 , he could won this year WDC too.


#4342 chrisblades85

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Posted 07 August 2010 - 14:38

I didn't know Nico finished second in China. If Michael didn't break his leg in 1999 , he could won this year WDC too.



In the words of Murry Walker IF is F1 spelt backwards. Hindsight is a wonderful thing.


#4343 MikeTekRacing

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Posted 07 August 2010 - 14:40

Don't get me wrong, I was truly looking forward to a Michael 'of old' taking it to the new kids on the block, but only the very foolish can possibly say that's what we've got.

guess what he's the same person, he didn't suddenly forget how to either drive fast or motivate people around
together with mercedes they have to make this work, but the car needs plenty of redesign

#4344 man

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Posted 07 August 2010 - 16:00

guess what he's the same person, he didn't suddenly forget how to either drive fast or motivate people around
together with mercedes they have to make this work, but the car needs plenty of redesign


For once, I absolutley agree.

He is the same person he was, he has the same skills, craft, arrogance and total lack of sportsmanship but the team environment and politics he is faced with have changed.

Result? A good ol' thrashing from Rosberg...to the point where results are now a pretty much foregone conclusion.


#4345 ivand911

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Posted 07 August 2010 - 16:25

For once, I absolutley agree.

He is the same person he was, he has the same skills, craft, arrogance and total lack of sportsmanship but the team environment and politics he is faced with have changed.

Result? A good ol' thrashing from Rosberg...to the point where results are now a pretty much foregone conclusion.

Nico p7, Michael p9 , where is the trashing again? It is no like Nico p1 , and Michael p16. Webber p1,Vettel p3. Lewis p2, Button p4. Alonso p5, Massa p6.

#4346 TC3000

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Posted 07 August 2010 - 16:30

The sponsors care if the team is winning or not, too. Sponsors, no matter who they are, are not going to pay up eternally for a driver who isn't delivering, no matter what his name is or what he's done in the past.



There is some truth in this.
However, by this logic 90% of all sponsors in F1 would need to leave after 1-2 years because they (their driver/team) never win anything,
and teams like HRT/Virgin/Lotus won´t get any sponsors, because they (most likely) will not win in the forseeable future.

The return on invest considerations for a sponsor are a bit more complex then some here want them to be.
If it works out for Mercedes/Petronas etc. in relation to M.S. will depend of what they are aiming at, their expectations, their timeframe and which metrics they use, to gauge (their) success.
Sure it will be a benefit if they win overall (WDC/WCC), but it is by no means the only measure for their investment to be successful or not.
I don´t think that the majory of the posters here, are in a position to make a assessment in relation to it.
Of course you are free to have your opinions on it, draw your conclusions and express them.

Edited by TC3000, 07 August 2010 - 18:07.


#4347 Elloh

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Posted 07 August 2010 - 16:43

Nico p7, Michael p9 , where is the trashing again? It is no like Nico p1 , and Michael p16. Webber p1,Vettel p3. Lewis p2, Button p4. Alonso p5, Massa p6.


N.Rosberg 94
M.Schumacher 38


#4348 ivand911

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Posted 07 August 2010 - 17:14

N.Rosberg 94
M.Schumacher 38

OOO, this is the reason why Michael and Ross can't sleep. I was wondering. Thanks.


#4349 britishtrident

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Posted 07 August 2010 - 17:28

A running in mid pack is fine for sponsors but a car running at the rear of the midfield driven by a mega expensive former multi time world champion who is using dirty and dangerous driving tactics against a much liked former team mate is not good. I can imagine Mercedes image especially in Brazil and the rest of South America has been tarnished.

The car isn't great but it looks a whole lot better in Nico's hands than in those of the fading superstar.
Time for Mercedes to realise that Nico is where the future lies.

Edited by britishtrident, 07 August 2010 - 17:30.


#4350 ivand911

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Posted 07 August 2010 - 18:06

A running in mid pack is fine for sponsors but a car running at the rear of the midfield driven by a mega expensive former multi time world champion who is using dirty and dangerous driving tactics against a much liked former team mate is not good. I can imagine Mercedes image especially in Brazil and the rest of South America has been tarnished.

The car isn't great but it looks a whole lot better in Nico's hands than in those of the fading superstar.
Time for Mercedes to realise that Nico is where the future lies.

Very fair and unbiased opinion. No more sales for Mercedes in South America. I really didn't see that coming. :rotfl: Only reassurance is record sales in China and USA.

Edited by ivand911, 07 August 2010 - 18:13.