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#4451 Fortymark

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Posted 11 August 2010 - 09:15

Mid / late 2003 is a perfect example why MS is waaaay overrated and had everything
built to his liking. Bridgestone got their tires wrong by accident but they worked with Rubens.
Rubens became faster than Michael and won races while Schumacher was lapped by Alonso
in Hungary.

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#4452 merschu

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Posted 11 August 2010 - 09:33

There seem to be several people on this board, who think that Schumacher brings a lot of value to Mercedes even when not performing well on the track. I live in India and early on in the year there were ads with MS driving the new gullwing. These were replaced with ads with both MS and NR driving the F1 car. Now Merc has gone with DC in their latest film to be shown in all their dealerships around the world despite having the most recognizable driver in their payroll. Sorry if you don't find it relevant.


It certainly is irrelevant! First of all The gullwing ad has really become famous! On youtube it has more than 400,000 views! Almost all article published on that car mentions " the car with which Michael Schumacher does a 360° turn".

Now coming to the M.S & N.R driving an F1 car together, it's a ad from Petronas. MGP title sponsor so they obviously will show both the MGP drivers just like Vodafone ad has both L.H & J.B!

And D.C doing this ad for Mercedes also means nothing! He is a Mercedes DTM driver & has alot of free time in hand so he did the ad!
M.S during his retirement period did ads for Ferrari while there official F1 drivers were focused on F1, so what?

Edited by Buttoneer, 11 August 2010 - 10:51.


#4453 Lifew12

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Posted 11 August 2010 - 09:35

Sorry but that's not true - Barrichello (nor any of MS's teammates bar Piquet) never had equal conditions with Schumacher. Barrichello was driving the same equipment, but that equipment (car and tires) had been designed just exactly along the lines how Schumacher had wanted it to be. Schumacher didn't have to adapt to it, Barrichello had to adapt every time. Also the optimum strategy was always Schumacher's, not Barrichello's. So no, there never were "equal conditions" between Barrichello and Schumacher.


Maybe 'equal conditions' came about as Michael was not at his best on those occasions, I don't know. What I'm saying is that there were occasions when Barrichello could beat him.



#4454 Lifew12

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Posted 11 August 2010 - 09:36

It certainly is irrelevant!


if Michael had been in that ad would it have been irrelevant?


#4455 aditya-now

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Posted 11 August 2010 - 09:37

You seem to miss that the "fanatical delusion" is on both sides of the fence...


That's a very fair statement. It very often is indeed so. That's why I admire those posters with a balanced take on things.
ForeverF1 told me once that he "had the pleasure of talking with all the past greats which is why I now no longer support any one driver or team, I support them all."

I found this sentence very educating and exemplary - and I do know that I myself have still to learn in that department.

* at ForeverF1: I hope I did not misuse your trust by making the above statement public - I find your sentence hugely inspirational and putting things into the proper perspective. We all can learn from that.


#4456 Number62

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Posted 11 August 2010 - 10:19

http://f1professor.w...e-back-in-2011/



#4457 as65p

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Posted 11 August 2010 - 10:31

http://f1professor.w...e-back-in-2011/


A fan blog.

This is so cool... :smoking:

#4458 Number62

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Posted 11 August 2010 - 10:35

A fan blog.

This is so cool... :smoking:


I don't know what the little smoky man means. Does that denote sarcasm?

#4459 Lifew12

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Posted 11 August 2010 - 10:40

http://f1professor.w...e-back-in-2011/


Im not sure why you have drawn our attention to this - perhaps you could elaborate on your reasoning? It's hardly ground breaking or original, after all, and misses completely the fact that contracts are a two way agreement.

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#4460 Number62

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Posted 11 August 2010 - 10:44

Im not sure why you have drawn our attention to this - perhaps you could elaborate on your reasoning? It's hardly ground breaking or original, after all, and misses completely the fact that contracts are a two way agreement.


Just being nice. I thought some people might enjoy reading it.

Edited by Number62, 11 August 2010 - 10:45.


#4461 Ferrari_F1_fan_2001

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Posted 11 August 2010 - 10:53

Mid / late 2003 is a perfect example why MS is waaaay overrated and had everything
built to his liking. Bridgestone got their tires wrong by accident but they worked with Rubens.
Rubens became faster than Michael and won races while Schumacher was lapped by Alonso
in Hungary.


You cite one example? Wow, you win.


PS: Remind us all who finished AHEAD in the World Driver's Championship in 2003? Infact, remind us who actually WON the World Driver's Championship in 2003.

#4462 aditya-now

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Posted 11 August 2010 - 10:59

I don't know what the little smoky man means. Does that denote sarcasm?


I think the smokey means that he is smoking. EU warning: smoking can seriously damage your health and those of others! Smoking can kill!


 ;)


Concerning the blog of the Professor: I concur that for Michael Schumacher it is virtually impossible to walk away when he is in such a low. He will try whatever is in his might to exit on a high.
Let´s see if he succeeds.



#4463 Big Block 8

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Posted 11 August 2010 - 11:57

http://f1professor.w...e-back-in-2011/

However they now have a lot of data on where Michael has been struggling and this data can be very important in designing the 2011 Mercedes F1 car. I therefore think it very unlikely that Michael would want to end his F1 career on his 2010 performance and indeed finish up the season with a car which had not been significantly developed since August. I think this is a clear sign that Michael Schumacher will now be focusing on his 2011 season along with Mercedes.


Well I for one agree with this. And I think he'll very likely improve his performance next year - a lot of it of course depends on the new Pirellis.

#4464 as65p

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Posted 11 August 2010 - 12:07

...a lot of it of course depends on the new Pirellis.


Or so we're told. I remain pretty sceptical whether different tyres would change much. The only way to know would be to put the drivers (not only MS) who use that excuse back on past tyres along with their respective better performing teammates, but that never happens, obviously.

Maybe I'm too cynic, but I suspect that's why the tyre excuse is used so regularity, because there is no way to verify it.

#4465 tormave

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Posted 11 August 2010 - 12:13

I think this is a clear sign that Michael Schumacher will now be focusing on his 2011 season along with Mercedes.

I keep reading this and I still think it's still utter bollocks. How can MS focus on 2011 now? Today? By meditating? Fair enough, the engineers can take his feedback on race weekends on this years car and put it into the designs for the next year, but MS won't be giving them real world feedback before next years testing season. However the best way he can help the team on the next years car is to find set up solutions to make the current car go faster on race weekends.

#4466 Big Block 8

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Posted 11 August 2010 - 12:26

Or so we're told. I remain pretty sceptical weather different tyres would change much. The only way to know would be to put the drivers (not only MS) who use that excuse back on past tyres along with their respective better performing teammates, but that never happens, obviously.

Maybe I'm too cynic, but I suspect that's why the tyre excuse is used so regularily, because there is no way to verify it.


Well the tire "excuse" is in fact pretty valid as with the current telemetry they can see the tire temperature / tire grip in relation to the downforce levels all the time. This in turn depends on track condition, setup and rubber compound characteristics in relation with the overall car characteristics.

Drivers (or rather different driving styles) prefer different setups and car characteristics, so tire grip varies between drivers as well. The engineers can also see if driver A has more tire grip than driver B, so they do know if the drivers talk bollocks (regards the tires).

#4467 arknor

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Posted 11 August 2010 - 13:12

Or so we're told. I remain pretty sceptical whether different tyres would change much. The only way to know would be to put the drivers (not only MS) who use that excuse back on past tyres along with their respective better performing teammates, but that never happens, obviously.

Maybe I'm too cynic, but I suspect that's why the tyre excuse is used so regularity, because there is no way to verify it.

but we know the brawn car had issues with tyres last year or were button and rubens seeing into the future and saw schumacher needed tyre excuses :rolleyes:

#4468 aditya-now

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Posted 11 August 2010 - 14:01

... And I think he'll very likely improve his performance next year - a lot of it of course depends on the new Pirellis.


An interesting side-note: Nick Heidfeld is doing the tyre development tests for Pirelli 2011. Albeit in a Toyota, I would be curious if he is not feeding them data that is in Michael´s favour. After all, Nick is also on Daimler-Benz´s payroll....


#4469 as65p

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Posted 11 August 2010 - 14:01

Well the tire "excuse" is in fact pretty valid as with the current telemetry they can see the tire temperature / tire grip in relation to the downforce levels all the time. This in turn depends on track condition, setup and rubber compound characteristics in relation with the overall car characteristics.

Drivers (or rather different driving styles) prefer different setups and car characteristics, so tire grip varies between drivers as well. The engineers can also see if driver A has more tire grip than driver B, so they do know if the drivers talk bollocks (regards the tires).


That may be true to a large extent, the engineers surely know... a lot more than they would prepared to tell publicly, in any case they wouldn't come out with stuff to slag their current drivers, even if they had facts to support it. I know RB has come in support of MS and blamed the tyres, yet I'm not convinced, he's basically in the same position as Norbert Haug, long-time buddy of MS and instrumental in bringing him back.

And even if we buy into this evil tyres theory, it's not really a valid excuse, not for a supposed star driver. They are supposed to adapt and get at least as much out of the equipment as the guy in the other car, even if they'd prefer equipment with different characteristics. In fact that's what we witnessed with Alonso in 2007, in all likelihood he would have prefered to stay on Michelins and be far more at ease, yet did he complain? Not really, all I remember is him saying that adapting to the Bridgestones is difficult and the main area to work on for him. That's what I'd expect, not "Oh, it's the tyres, they're shit, nothing to do about it than to wait for more suitable ones next season, maybe, hopefully." :well:

#4470 Ferrari_F1_fan_2001

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Posted 11 August 2010 - 15:02

Does anyone know if Schumacher is still going to get a new car/chassis for Spa? Originally, they said it would be for Silvestone but 'development' was put back 6 weeks to Spa if I recall correctly.

Is this still the case or does the 2010 development freeze by Mercedes mean that effectively no more car/aero/chassis updates for the 2010 season?

#4471 Birelman

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Posted 11 August 2010 - 15:34

Does anyone know if Schumacher is still going to get a new car/chassis for Spa? Originally, they said it would be for Silvestone but 'development' was put back 6 weeks to Spa if I recall correctly.

Is this still the case or does the 2010 development freeze by Mercedes mean that effectively no more car/aero/chassis updates for the 2010 season?

I don't know, best to ask Raikkonen, he won Spa last year in a development frozen Ferrari.

#4472 ivand911

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Posted 11 August 2010 - 16:04

An interesting side-note: Nick Heidfeld is doing the tyre development tests for Pirelli 2011. Albeit in a Toyota, I would be curious if he is not feeding them data that is in Michael´s favour. After all, Nick is also on Daimler-Benz´s payroll....

Did test with Nick in Toyota car started? We hear for such possibility , but is it real? What I think is, even if this happen Nick will use this to get in some team for next year, than just helping MGP.
I expect new chassis for Michael in SPA.


#4473 Ferrari_F1_fan_2001

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Posted 11 August 2010 - 16:26

I don't know, best to ask Raikkonen, he won Spa last year in a development frozen Ferrari.


I tried asking Kimi but his manager told me that he'd parked his Citroen in a ditch and went off to have an ice cream.

#4474 schubacca

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Posted 11 August 2010 - 16:36

Why? I think I put it quite clearly! I'm suggesting that what Michael suffers from most is the missing all-cosseting environment he had at, especially, Ferrari and at Benetton. I don't think it;s hard to get, really.

If you look at all the reasons - or excuses, althought I prefer the former - for his less than stunning performances this year some have merits, some don't. I don't buy the tyres bit as he's not some journeyman he's Michael Schumacher, i don't buy the he doesn't like the handling bit for the same reason and thanks to Rosberg's performance, it may have been passable to use 'he's been away for three years' at the start of the season but he hasn't been away for three years any more, and if the problem is that he's 41 then for the life of me I can't see why Mercedes would want him when he's 42. The one thing that stands out, to me, that is different now to how things were 'then', is that he's out of his old, comfortable and committed-to-him environment.

You will probably read that, as yo have many of my recent posts, as saying he shouldn't have had that in the fist place, but that's not what I'm saying at all. Different team, different environment, different treatment - and it's not working for him.


I am not so sure that in this day of ultra limited testing that he should on pace this season. The tyres are massively different and he cannot get them to work for him. The car suffers from understeer and he prefers a pointy car as Jenson Button himself commented.

I will say that he is not what is was.... But I will also say that he is still deserving of the Merc seat.

#4475 aditya-now

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Posted 11 August 2010 - 17:19

Did test with Nick in Toyota car started? We hear for such possibility , but is it real? What I think is, even if this happen Nick will use this to get in some team for next year, than just helping MGP.
I expect new chassis for Michael in SPA.


It is real - MSA (motorsport aktuell) reported it in their Tuesday edition.


#4476 Birelman

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Posted 11 August 2010 - 17:44

I tried asking Kimi but his manager told me that he'd parked his Citroen in a ditch and went off to have an ice cream.

lol the moron is gonna get killed doing Rally!

#4477 cheapracer

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Posted 11 August 2010 - 18:13

It's interesting, in raising those three men - and I have to say Clark and Rindt, and others from that era, in particular - we raise a point that is very much a key to the discussion about Schumacher in 2010: adaptability.


Very little difference in car concepts over Clark's career compared to the changes (including teams) of FIA tech every year since 1992, MS adapted to it all. And yes he is apparently having trouble adapting this year.



#4478 frp

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Posted 11 August 2010 - 21:44

Very little difference in car concepts over Clark's career compared to the changes (including teams) of FIA tech every year since 1992, MS adapted to it all. And yes he is apparently having trouble adapting this year.

I'd say that there are considerable differences between 1½-litre F1 cars, 3-litre F1 cars, 1-litre F2 cars, Indianapolis cars, sports-racing cars, road-going sports cars and saloon cars. Clark won consistently, and concurrently, in all these, and impressed in his only NASCAR drive until the car broke. Lifew12's point about adaptability seems very sensible to me.

#4479 baddog

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Posted 11 August 2010 - 23:26

It is wholly futile to try to even guess if Clark, Fangio, Moss, anyone from that era would have been faster than any driver from this era, or he than they. The difference is just enormous in the nature of the cars and the driving. Maybe one of those would have been superb now.. maybe they would not have been any good at all. Would any of them have been able to be fit enough? Maybe. Maybe Michael would have just never been any good in those cars, but maybe he would have been sublime..

Just because they drove a wide range of cars does not mean much on this front, as none of those cars had anything in common with a modern F1 car, and vice versa.

I say this as someone in awe of what those guys did.

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#4480 frp

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Posted 12 August 2010 - 00:13

It is wholly futile to try to even guess if Clark, Fangio, Moss, anyone from that era would have been faster than any driver from this era, or he than they. The difference is just enormous in the nature of the cars and the driving. Maybe one of those would have been superb now.. maybe they would not have been any good at all. Would any of them have been able to be fit enough? Maybe. Maybe Michael would have just never been any good in those cars, but maybe he would have been sublime..

Just because they drove a wide range of cars does not mean much on this front, as none of those cars had anything in common with a modern F1 car, and vice versa.

I say this as someone in awe of what those guys did.

I agree absolutely. That's why all those 'Hundred Greatest Drivers Ever' rankings are so pointless. There are enough arguments about the relative performances of drivers racing now, without pretending we can compare one now with one who raced when the sport was completely different.
I just felt it was important to refute any suggestion that Clark and his contemporaries had been successful only in a specific type of vehicle, lest those readers who were not around in those days should be misled.

#4481 black magic

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Posted 12 August 2010 - 00:43

I would challenge the notion that the ferrari cars were designed solely with michael in mind.

that the team was focused on him is not in question. note though that after todt came michael. the super team was built BECAUSE michael was also at ferrari - such had been the admiration that had developed amongst those at benetton where the car had not been necessarily the class of the field but certainly took it to senna and williams

however we saw with the 2000 - 2004 ferrari that thre would have been quick in anyones hand esp from 2001 onwards.

I believed that as the car improved so michaels teammates began to match him and even beat him on occassion. I have no problem with that.

the cars built esp for michael seemd more the benettons where the team were originally trying to overcome an engine deficiency in comparison to the wiliams and decided that by designning the car with michael in mind was their only chance.

look at when brundle climbed into the 2004 ferrari how driveable he found it. much the same difference we are seeing with the current red bull. note though michaels reputation was built BEFORE the domination of 2001 onwards

I accept tyour stance aas stated muz bee and perhpas I mistook your thrust.

sadly for herbert he simply wasnt the driver he had been before his big shunt

#4482 Muz Bee

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Posted 12 August 2010 - 03:36

Prove it.

Funny you should mention those 3, their combined total of WDC's equals MS's and they also had the best cars and try tell me Lotus wasn't Clark's team ....

The entire time I was growing up drivers were rated on WDC wins, was all pretty easy till first Senna came along and we couldn't have that sort of driver the equal of Clark, no sir'ee and now MS has just entirely ruined the order of it all.

The old list was almost exclusively started with Fangio then Clark and then your actual preferences - you guys are just confused now because that pecking order has been upset but I can tell you who's first on German lists and I'll tell you who's first on Brazilian lists and I'll also tell you who's first on French lists .....


Anyway although this would appear to be the ultimate denial of F1 reality thread, it is in fact still the MS thread and one thing I admire about MS's record is that unlike some other drivers he won every WDC on the back of winning races.

He also has the incredible figure of winning more than 10% of Grand Prix's ever held in the entire history of F1 - thats a pretty stunning realization. Of course one has to be interested in actually realizing it :lol:

You prove a point I have put forward about many fans of Schumacher. You can't let anyone's opinion pass as their opinion. I clearly stated (in asperation) "my opinion"!

If you're going to be a warrior of the keyboard how about stepping back and seeing that not everyone shares your opinions on everything. Obviously comparing drivers of eras so far apart is difficult. Clearly the drivers of Clark's time had the following factors not in their favour - lifespan, number of GPs per season, reliability.

Regards the bolded part of your post you might like to check out the maths of Clark's 24 wins from 75 starts IIRC. Other issues in your rebuttal concern "on the back of winning races" and Michael's excellent carriage of choice from 2000 - 2004 (pretty fast, totally reliable).

If you had read my post in context it would show I am indeed an admirer of Michael's driving abilities, very much so. There have been drivers like Gilles who all concede was blindingly fast but not the complete package, drivers like Lauda and Brabham who had a way of winning with the required amount of pace to do the job, drivers like Senna who were occasionally almost on another level. Michael's success IMO came from a combination of speed, racecraft, mastering difficult conditions and several others.

Clearly you are unhappy to read anything but eulogies on the man and get upset when another view emerges. I will leave you to your own fanship. :wave:

Edited by Muz Bee, 12 August 2010 - 04:06.


#4483 Muz Bee

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Posted 12 August 2010 - 04:03

Very little difference in car concepts over Clark's career compared to the changes (including teams) of FIA tech every year since 1992, MS adapted to it all. And yes he is apparently having trouble adapting this year.

Not wanting to look like I'm picking on you but...
You want to retract that statement? :yawnface:

When Clark started racing the rear engine layout was in it's infancy and the 1.5 litre engine restriction in place. The monocoque brought huge changes in stiffness and lightness to the equation. The 3 litre engines and particularly the Cosworth engine brought speeds close to today's top speeds. Tyres changed from little more than road car sizes to 15 inch wide rollers. These were just some of the visible differences and drivers simply got on with adapting to TOTALLY different styles of driving.

Also on the Clark theme - he was denied titles in 62 and 64 by appalling reliability winning more races than anyone, in fact winning almost any time the car didn't let him down. He won a GP with the ridiculously cumbersome H16 BRM engine in 1966, he made up a one lap deficit on the leaders at Monza, he drove against more World Champions in his time including putting a WDC teammate in the shade in 67.

Of course technical ability was still a requirement during this era even if there were not the complexities of today's scene. His ability was said by his peers to be of a natural source and he could drive anything quicker than anyone, anywhere, in his time. His ability to adapt to the banked ovals and Indy against some of the all-time US greats like Parnelli, Foyt and co and be immediately competitive is astounding if you just stop and think about how difficult this would be.

Kinda makes adapting to the 2010 Mercedes look like a stroll in the park.... IMO of course.

Edited by Muz Bee, 12 August 2010 - 04:08.


#4484 cheapracer

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Posted 12 August 2010 - 04:43

You prove a point I have put forward about many fans of Schumacher. You can't let anyone's opinion pass as their opinion. I clearly stated (in asperation) "my opinion"!


Clearly you are unhappy to read anything but eulogies on the man and get upset when another view emerges. I will leave you to your own fanship. :wave:


You say it yourself, it's an opinion.

And there it is, I state facts often with figures, examples and results against your self confessed opinion so you simply turn to the "your a fanboy" defense.

Feel free to start a Clark Fanboy thread hypocrite, I'll be there.

Edited by cheapracer, 12 August 2010 - 04:45.


#4485 Birelman

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Posted 12 August 2010 - 05:24

You say it yourself, it's an opinion.

And there it is, I state facts often with figures, examples and results against your self confessed opinion so you simply turn to the "your a fanboy" defense.

Feel free to start a Clark Fanboy thread hypocrite, I'll be there.


Non of my business but Calling him hypocrite is uncalled for

He stated his opinión and was honesto enough to admit to it being his opinión, contrast that to your egotistical view that all you write aré facts which i hace read and aré nothing of The sort

Edited by Birelman, 12 August 2010 - 05:28.


#4486 slaveceru

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Posted 12 August 2010 - 05:53

Again, not at all; I clearly stated that at the beginning of the year that was a valid argument, but now it's not.

So you are also one of the guys here in this forum who dislike Schumacher so much that you are not objective. So in your opinion how long it will take Schumacher to get completly acuanted with new tires , cars and rules after three years in retirement?
:rotfl:
Who said it that Schumacher will need only a few races to get back to him old self again Lauda, Coulthard who else did Schumacher, Ross or even Norbert said it they did not, because they do not know how long it will take. There is a possibility that he will never achieve his old form in F1 racing. Niki Lauda returned to racing in completely different period were there were no such great changes in rules or cars when he left the field. Coulthard on the other hand did not come back after retirement so he is speculating like you do. Schumacher has one major problem and that are qualifications in comparison to Rosberg his racing speed is similar to Rosberg racing speed. There were few races when Schumacher was better than Rosberg. Here are the facts: Rosberg is better driver than Schumacher this year, Schumacher did not drive in any racing series for whole three years, Rosberg on the other hand did, Rosberg has problems with starts in races and Schumacher with qualification, there is a major flaw in the design of the Mercedes car.

Edited by slaveceru, 12 August 2010 - 06:05.


#4487 man

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Posted 12 August 2010 - 06:04

You say it yourself, it's an opinion.

And there it is, I state facts often with figures, examples and results against your self confessed opinion so you simply turn to the "your a fanboy" defense.

Feel free to start a Clark Fanboy thread hypocrite, I'll be there.


Hehe...It is not beyond the realms of possibility that somebody of your intelligence can acknowledge facts and statistics need context in order to coney any meaningful information? Otherwise we may as well all go home and admit Rosberg must be the greatest driver F1 has ever known. ;-)

#4488 slaveceru

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Posted 12 August 2010 - 06:13

Hehe...It is not beyond the realms of possibility that somebody of your intelligence can acknowledge facts and statistics need context in order to coney any meaningful information? Otherwise we may as well all go home and admit Rosberg must be the greatest driver F1 has ever known. ;-)

:rotfl:
Do you think that Schumacher is in the same form as he was when he retired? Schumacher achived more in F1 than Rosber ever will. Do you think that Rosberg will become another legend in F1 racing?

#4489 man

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Posted 12 August 2010 - 06:36

:rotfl:
Do you think that Schumacher is in the same form as he was when he retired? Schumacher achived more in F1 than Rosber ever will. Do you think that Rosberg will become another legend in F1 racing?


But factually speaking Rosberg can only be judged on what tasks he has been given. He wasn't around when M Schumacher had the best machinery during the 90s and 00s. He can only be judged on what is available for him to do. Standards of cars fall into the category of variables so the thing that every driver must aim to do is to beat your teammate first. Rosberg has DOUBLE the points of M Schumacher and has out qualified m Schumacher by TRIPLE. Therefore, factually speaking as your ilk insist upon, Rosberg is a better driver than M Schumacher period. Standards have changed, what was good enough yesterday is evidently not good enough today - that's not even taking into consideration the preferential treatment M Schumacher received first time around.

#4490 ivand911

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Posted 12 August 2010 - 06:49

But factually speaking Rosberg can only be judged on what tasks he has been given. He wasn't around when M Schumacher had the best machinery during the 90s and 00s. He can only be judged on what is available for him to do. Standards of cars fall into the category of variables so the thing that every driver must aim to do is to beat your teammate first. Rosberg has DOUBLE the points of M Schumacher and has out qualified m Schumacher by TRIPLE. Therefore, factually speaking as your ilk insist upon, Rosberg is a better driver than M Schumacher period. Standards have changed, what was good enough yesterday is evidently not good enough today - that's not even taking into consideration the preferential treatment M Schumacher received first time around.

As you say we don't know what tasks(targets) they both have been given? Or maybe you have inside information, if not, anything you said don't have much meaning. There is a facts and there is interpretations(speculations) of the facts. We all can count to 100 or even more in good days. :)

Edited by ivand911, 12 August 2010 - 06:53.


#4491 man

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Posted 12 August 2010 - 06:54

As you say we don't know what tasks(targets) they both have been given? Or maybe you have inside information, if not, anything you said don't have much meaning. There is a facts and there is interpretations(speculations) of the facts. We all can count to 100 or even more in a good days. :)


Excuses excuses excuses ;-)

What were Verstappens, Herberts Irvines tasks etc?

;-)

#4492 Big Block 8

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Posted 12 August 2010 - 07:55

That may be true to a large extent, the engineers surely know... a lot more than they would prepared to tell publicly, in any case they wouldn't come out with stuff to slag their current drivers, even if they had facts to support it. I know RB has come in support of MS and blamed the tyres, yet I'm not convinced, he's basically in the same position as Norbert Haug, long-time buddy of MS and instrumental in bringing him back.


I'm not sure if I understand what you mean, but there are a lot of people working in the engineering department addressing the problems according to the telemetry data - and if the team bosses official party line would consistently somehow be against the data, I don't know how long they would be able to keep the sham up. There are investors to report to, constant changes in personnel and also lot of internal competition inside the team, so the truth would eventually creep out. By constantly lying about such a thing the bosses would make a lot of people unhappy and it would in the end in a normal situation cause a lot of harm both inside and outside the team.

And even if we buy into this evil tyres theory, it's not really a valid excuse, not for a supposed star driver. They are supposed to adapt and get at least as much out of the equipment as the guy in the other car, even if they'd prefer equipment with different characteristics. In fact that's what we witnessed with Alonso in 2007, in all likelihood he would have prefered to stay on Michelins and be far more at ease, yet did he complain? Not really, all I remember is him saying that adapting to the Bridgestones is difficult and the main area to work on for him. That's what I'd expect, not "Oh, it's the tyres, they're shit, nothing to do about it than to wait for more suitable ones next season, maybe, hopefully." :well:


But isn't what Schumacher has said just the same that you remember Alonso has said? Surely MS has said "he's working on it", only with the exception that the tire supplier wasn't about to change in 2008, so Alonso couldn't say "hopefully the next year's new tires work for me better", which I'm sure Alonso too would have then said at some point?

Furthermore I'd be cautious with the expactations regards "star" drivers - there really isn't any way to determine what a driver "should" be able to do in a certain situation, because the cars, tires, teams and yardsticks constantly change and every season becomes a different situation. Except a blanket statement that the "stars" should prevail against their team mate regardless of the situation. This in turn I'm certain is false to begin with, as any star driver past or present would get beaten by a teammate considered "lesser" in a legitimately "equal" situation, if the cards that we can't see stacked up against them just right. That's the unfortunate nature of the current motorsport formulas.

#4493 Lifew12

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Posted 12 August 2010 - 07:56

So you are also one of the guys here in this forum who dislike Schumacher so much that you are not objective.


No, I'm someone who loves F1 racing and finds the trials and tribulations of all drivers and teams interesting. I've explained it before - it doesn't matter to me who wins or who loses, who does well and who does not, what is the best or what is the worst, as what I am interested in is motor racing. I find Michael's struggles this year of interest as, in all honesty, I expected him to be much, much more competetive. I think that expectation to be perfectly acceptable as, after all, we're taling about Michael Schumacher here, not Sakon Yamamoto. It would be a much better place, for everyone, if people didn't automatically think that someone posting a view thst doesn't agree with theirs necessarily 'hates' the driver concerned. For me, that sort of attitude stayed behind in the school playground.

I don't buy the 'three years out' excuse for one simple reason - he's no longer been away for three years.

I do agree, however, that Rosberg is better this year. I wonder what your explanation will be when he's better next year, too?


#4494 Lifew12

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Posted 12 August 2010 - 07:58

Very little difference in car concepts over Clark's career


I'm pleased to see others have picked you up onthis somewhat erroneous comment; I'd say there was a lot of difference, and not just in concept, between the Lotus 49 and the Lotus Cortina.




#4495 as65p

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Posted 12 August 2010 - 08:24

I'm not sure if I understand what you mean, but there are a lot of people working in the engineering department addressing the problems according to the telemetry data - and if the team bosses official party line would consistently somehow be against the data, I don't know how long they would be able to keep the sham up. There are investors to report to, constant changes in personnel and also lot of internal competition inside the team, so the truth would eventually creep out. By constantly lying about such a thing the bosses would make a lot of people unhappy and it would in the end in a normal situation cause a lot of harm both inside and outside the team.


Let's just say I trust official team statements not as much as you seem to do, particularily not in difficult circumstances.

But isn't what Schumacher has said just the same that you remember Alonso has said? Surely MS has said "he's working on it", only with the exception that the tire supplier wasn't about to change in 2008, so Alonso couldn't say "hopefully the next year's new tires work for me better", which I'm sure Alonso too would have then said at some point?


To be fair I don't recall MS himself to complain too much abiut the tyres, I was referring more to Ross Brawns and the fans.

Furthermore I'd be cautious with the expactations regards "star" drivers - there really isn't any way to determine what a driver "should" be able to do in a certain situation, because the cars, tires, teams and yardsticks constantly change and every season becomes a different situation. Except a blanket statement that the "stars" should prevail against their team mate regardless of the situation. This in turn I'm certain is false to begin with, as any star driver past or present would get beaten by a teammate considered "lesser" in a legitimately "equal" situation, if the cards that we can't see stacked up against them just right. That's the unfortunate nature of the current motorsport formulas.


By "star" drivers I mean the very top, and to me those are defined, among other things, by being able to extract the max under any sort of circumstance, which MS (evident by Rosbergs better performance) isn't able to anymore. On it's own, I perfectly sympathize with a driver mourning unsuitable equipment, but that only goes so far. In the end the results count and if they aren't forthcoming, tough luck, time to move on. To give two different examples, I think both Montoya and Räikönnen are more talented than what they're final stats suggest, but in the only reality available they weren't able to exploit it fully, and that's that. Nothing anyone can do about it.

Same goes for MS v2, he isn't able to deliver the max with what's available, and pinning ones hope on completely uncertain tyre charateristics in 2011 sounds pretty desperate to me, at best it's a bet with not too brilliant odds.

#4496 Fortymark

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Posted 12 August 2010 - 08:32

I would challenge the notion that the ferrari cars were designed solely with michael in mind.

that the team was focused on him is not in question. note though that after todt came michael. the super team was built BECAUSE michael was also at ferrari - such had been the admiration that had developed amongst those at benetton where the car had not been necessarily the class of the field but certainly took it to senna and williams

however we saw with the 2000 - 2004 ferrari that thre would have been quick in anyones hand esp from 2001 onwards.

I believed that as the car improved so michaels teammates began to match him and even beat him on occassion. I have no problem with that.

the cars built esp for michael seemd more the benettons where the team were originally trying to overcome an engine deficiency in comparison to the wiliams and decided that by designning the car with michael in mind was their only chance.

look at when brundle climbed into the 2004 ferrari how driveable he found it. much the same difference we are seeing with the current red bull. note though michaels reputation was built BEFORE the domination of 2001 onwards

I accept tyour stance aas stated muz bee and perhpas I mistook your thrust.

sadly for herbert he simply wasnt the driver he had been before his big shunt


BS, the Benetton B194 was the car to have in 1994. Ross Brawn said so himself.
In 1995 the Benetton had the same engine as the Williams.

It´s a myth that Schumacher performed miracles in inferior cars.
For some strange reason, Schumachers cars are rated on a neglected #2 driver :rolleyes:
In all other years the cars performance is rated on the lead driver but when it comes to MS,
it´s based on his teammate :drunk:

You don´t have to look further than the Merc W01, is it a car which belongs among the FI and the Williams
(based on MS´s performance) or is it a car that is among the Renaults + Ferraris (based on Rosberg)??

Edited by Fortymark, 12 August 2010 - 08:34.


#4497 Big Block 8

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Posted 12 August 2010 - 08:34

I would challenge the notion that the ferrari cars were designed solely with michael in mind.


I'd say that's how the string of 96-06 cars eventually began with, but as the time passed they had optimized the baseline design pretty much as MS wanted it. Then more resources could be diverted to assist the #2 driver in his problems, provided of course that the introduced changes for the behalf of the #2 didn't at the same time make the car more difficult for MS.

The lap time differences have shrunk over the years, but even today we can see in GPs close to 1 sec/lap differences between teammates when the other one is "struggling", only to see the gap has vanished in the next GP - or the previously "struggling" guy can even be the faster one there. So still a lot of time left inside the little quirks within the package.

#4498 ivand911

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Posted 12 August 2010 - 08:53

BS, the Benetton B194 was the car to have in 1994. Ross Brawn said so himself.
In 1995 the Benetton had the same engine as the Williams.

It´s a myth that Schumacher performed miracles in inferior cars.
For some strange reason, Schumachers cars are rated on a neglected #2 driver :rolleyes:
In all other years the cars performance is rated on the lead driver but when it comes to MS,
it´s based on his teammate :drunk:

You don´t have to look further than the Merc W01, is it a car which belongs among the FI and the Williams
(based on MS´s performance) or is it a car that is among the Renaults + Ferraris (based on Rosberg)??

Ferrari is much better than Renault,Williams,Sauber,MGP and FI group. I put them here from best to worst. My opinion, R.,W. and S. a overall better cars than MGP.

Edited by ivand911, 12 August 2010 - 08:55.


#4499 Fortymark

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Posted 12 August 2010 - 09:04

Ferrari is much better than Renault,Williams,Sauber,MGP and FI group. I put them here from best to worst. My opinion, R.,W. and S. a overall better cars than MGP.


:confused:
You put Ferrari ahead of them all, it´s ok
But you put Renault, Williams and Sauber ahead of Mercedes??!! :drunk:
Based on what?

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#4500 kenny

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Posted 12 August 2010 - 09:09

Ferrari is much better than Renault,Williams,Sauber,MGP and FI group. I put them here from best to worst. My opinion, R.,W. and S. a overall better cars than MGP.

In that case, Rosberg is seriously underrated...