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#4551 Disgrace

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Posted 12 August 2010 - 20:51

Only Mark Webber, as Nico's teamate has done better.


Because Wurz and Nakajima, his other team-mates, were also rubbish. Hence the fact Wurz retired one race early and Nakajima is no longer in F1.

This was supposed to be Rosbergs true test of whether he is a top championship-potential driver.

Ironically, we still don't know due to Schumachers/Mercedes underachievement.

Edited by Disgrace, 12 August 2010 - 20:53.


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#4552 Jan.W

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Posted 12 August 2010 - 23:32

Record Number
Championship titles 7 (1994, 1995, 2000, 2001, 2002, 2003, 2004)
Consecutive titles 5 (2000–2004)
Race victories 91
Consecutive wins 7 (2004, Europe–Hungary)
Wins with one team 72 (Ferrari)
Wins at same GP 8 (France)
Wins at different GPs 22
Longest Time between first and last wins 14 years, 1 month and 2 days
Second places 43
Podiums (Top 3) 154
Consecutive podium finishes 19 (US 2001–Japan 2002)
Points finishes 197
Consecutive points finishes 24 (Hungary 2001–Malaysia 2003)
Laps leading 4741 (22,155 km)[157]
Pole positions 68
Front row starts 115
Fastest laps 76
Doubles (Pole and win) 40
Perfect Score (Pole, fastest lap and win) 22
Championship points 1,407
Most points in a season for a runner-up 121 (2006)
Most wins in a season for a runner-up 7 (2006)
Wins at Indianapolis (any racing class) 5
Wins at Monza (Formula One) 5
Wins in a season 13 (72%) (2004)
Fastest laps in a season 10 (2004)
Points scored in a season 148 (82% of Max available) (2004)
Podium finishes in a season 17 (100%) (2002)
Championship won with most races left 6 (2002)
Largest championship-winning margin 67 (2002)
Consecutive years with a win 15 (1992–2006)
Most races with 1 team 181 (Ferrari)
Consecutive days as champion 1813 (from 8 October 2000 until 25 September 2005)

:love: :up:


#4553 flyer121

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Posted 13 August 2010 - 00:27

Record Number
Championship titles 7 (1994, 1995, 2000, 2001, 2002, 2003, 2004)
Consecutive titles 5 (2000–2004)
bla
''
blah
''
di
''
blah
..
.
.
Consecutive days as champion 1813 (from 8 October 2000 until 25 September 2005)
Consecutive days in the best car && substandard teammate 1813 (from 8 October 2000 until 25 September 2005)



#4554 flyer121

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Posted 13 August 2010 - 00:38

This thread is about MS as a whole not just 2010 where he is indeed being beaten by Rosberg, I've said that a large number of times, whats your point?

Your a very confused person, quote my non facts .... 10% won of all races ever is a fact including 2010, whats your problem with that?

No I'm stating he is a hypocrite because he calls me a fanboy then goes on to glorify Clark - that was clear in my post if you can't keep up because of your poor English thats your lookout, this is an English only forum and I'm not here to walk you through it.


Oh please, no need to be deliberately thick.
You called him the H word because "he was stating his opinion instead of facts" in your very own words.
My English is fine, thank you! The word you were looking for was "comprehension" perhaps.

BTW - you are callled a fanboy not because you glorify Schumi but because you jump on people who don't share your strong urge to fall flat on the earth and lick Schumi's feet at the very sight of him.


#4555 Muz Bee

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Posted 13 August 2010 - 03:30

This thread is about MS as a whole not just 2010 where he is indeed being beaten by Rosberg, I've said that a large number of times, whats your point?

Your a very confused person, quote my non facts .... 10% won of all races ever is a fact including 2010, whats your problem with that?

No I'm stating he is a hypocrite because he calls me a fanboy then goes on to glorify Clark - that was clear in my post if you can't keep up because of your poor English thats your lookout, this is an English only forum and I'm not here to walk you through it.

You live in the present? That a joke Mate? - why have you posted so much about his past? You are one of the main protagonists here about his past, get a grip.

And err yeah, where have I disputed that exactly - please actually quote me .... I can quote a number of posts where people have totally forgotten Monaco, Spain and Turkey.

Anyone thinks I have fantasied about Michael Schumacher please feel free to quote it. And while your at it PLEASE someone provide evidence of some of the continually claimed "arrogant" title - I've been asking for 15 years.

To label one "hypocrite" is all very well Cheapracer but you seem to miss the point about arguing another's opinion off the court. I am fine about you liking MS - I admire aspects of him myself - just when you rubbish others for their own favourite I take exception. It's totally moot and impossible to argue that Clark (or Fangio or Nuvolari etc) was best. OK Clark is my personal favourite and others might favour Gilles or Ayrton or Alain or Michael or Tazio or whoever. To say MS isn't my favourite doesn't qualify as "hater". I would have thought outside of his achievements Michael has done enough to be "controversial" at the least. I personally wouldn't go as far as some with the Number Uno driver line as he adequately demonstrated his superiority over his teammates just as Clark and others have. Just stop reading some kind of malevolence (where did I specifically call you "fanboy"?) into everything you read which doesn't totally align with your own for Pete's sake! This is a forum which is meant to present different points of view.

As for the "arrogant" evidence request - have you been living in a fishbowl? While I haven't personally met Michael, "ordinary" people I know who have spoken to him received a very poor reception despite his excellent grasp of English. I don't care about that anyway but I don't like the on track hardball approach shown again at Hockeheim which is a very bad thing for the sport IMO. His response initially to that was very poor in the eyes of the stewards and I would have to agree with them FWIW.

#4556 tormave

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Posted 13 August 2010 - 03:57

Would it be resonable to think, that (as an example) Roger Federer stop playing tennis for 3 years, then come back only plays
10 matches (no training/testing) and goes on and wins a grand slam?

Actually, this has happened twice in recent years: Kim Clijsters won US Open as a wild card player in her 3rd tournament back after retiring from the sport for 2 years. This year also Justine Henin made a comeback after 2 years away from the sport and proceeded as a wild card entry to the Australian Open final in just her 2nd tournament after announcing her return. Of course outside of those matches the players did train, but you aren't suggesting Schumacher made his return without any training? F1 drivers train hard and MS's legacy is he trained the hardest of them all.

When Schumacher announced his return to the sport I immediately thought that lack of testing would hurt him badly. When he was driving for Ferrari and the setup wasn't to his liking, he would drive from morning until night, day after day in Fiorano to get things just so. The resulting confidence in the car is what allowed him to be so consistently quick, but obviously achieving success this way was very expensive. Today you simply can't do that anymore and I fail to see how in the absence of this Schumacher can anymore achieve anything like the dominance he once enjoyed. There won't be any more testing next year than there was this year and the tyres will be new. The drivers with a good feeling for the limit grip will continue to have the advantage.

#4557 slaveceru

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Posted 13 August 2010 - 05:19

But factually speaking Rosberg can only be judged on what tasks he has been given. He wasn't around when M Schumacher had the best machinery during the 90s and 00s. He can only be judged on what is available for him to do. Standards of cars fall into the category of variables so the thing that every driver must aim to do is to beat your teammate first. Rosberg has DOUBLE the points of M Schumacher and has out qualified m Schumacher by TRIPLE. Therefore, factually speaking as your ilk insist upon, Rosberg is a better driver than M Schumacher period. Standards have changed, what was good enough yesterday is evidently not good enough today - that's not even taking into consideration the preferential treatment M Schumacher received first time around.

You did not answered the question is Rosberg in your own opinion the winner material and if so is prove? I have stated several times that Rosberg is better driver this year then Schumacher but that does not mean that he would beat Schumacher when he was in top form does it?

#4558 slaveceru

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Posted 13 August 2010 - 05:30

No, I'm someone who loves F1 racing and finds the trials and tribulations of all drivers and teams interesting. I've explained it before - it doesn't matter to me who wins or who loses, who does well and who does not, what is the best or what is the worst, as what I am interested in is motor racing.

:up:
I also do not care if Rosberg will beat Schumacher next year but I am extremely happy to see him racing. Rosberg is young he has to prove himself against Hamilton, Alonso and Vettle which are the top guns now in F1, Schumacher on the other hand does not need to prove anything to the media or fans, but I think he return to F1 to prove himself that he can do it once again and let him bee that is all and yes he still deserve the place in F1 grid.

#4559 man

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Posted 13 August 2010 - 05:36

You did not answered the question is Rosberg in your own opinion the winner material and if so is prove? I have stated several times that Rosberg is better driver this year then Schumacher but that does not mean that he would beat Schumacher when he was in top form does it?


Who knows. It's speculation the only thing we can see for certain is that Rosberg is comfortably the better driver in 2010. It also depends in which kind of environment they would have been set in. Without testing M Schumacher appears to fin it difficult to adapt. With testing we know he is willing to do nothing else in life and test 24/7, I think fee drivers take their profession so seriously. For raw pace, I think it would be a close call...in terms of mistakes I think Rosberg wins easily as he makes few if any.

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#4560 slaveceru

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Posted 13 August 2010 - 05:43

I don't think MGP's 'design problem' is as big as you make out; at least Nico Rosberg isn't too bothered by it.

Everyone in MGP form the director to the sporting director is saying that there is a major flaw in the design of Mercedes car this year. At the beginning of the season also Schumacher has criticized this year car and Rosberg did not. Also for a long period of time Rosberg was thinking that he could win a WDC with this car and that nothing major is wrong with it. So if this was the case why is he not in front? Who gave better judgment on the car pace?

#4561 slaveceru

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Posted 13 August 2010 - 05:46

Who knows. It's speculation the only thing we can see for certain is that Rosberg is comfortably the better driver in 2010. It also depends in which kind of environment they would have been set in. Without testing M Schumacher appears to fin it difficult to adapt. With testing we know he is willing to do nothing else in life and test 24/7, I think fee drivers take their profession so seriously. For raw pace, I think it would be a close call...in terms of mistakes I think Rosberg wins easily as he makes few if any.

:rotfl:

The time will tell. In each sport legend do eventually fall and they are beaten by younger guys who will have to prove that they are somethin special and I think Rosberg is not.

#4562 Lifew12

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Posted 13 August 2010 - 07:53

He was also publicly testing for McLaren at least a year before he came back.


No he wasn't. I believe Lauda's first test in the Mclaren was in October of 81; testing in those days wasn;t anywhere near as intense as it is even now, with the in season ban.

#4563 Lifew12

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Posted 13 August 2010 - 07:56

Hi Lifew12

I agree with what you say in general, and think it´s sensible.
But I would like you to explain this comment to me:

>>> I don't buy the 'three years out' excuse for one simple reason - he's no longer been away for three years. <<<

Do you think, that in any sport somebody can stop for 3 years, come back and be still at the top of their game? (without the possibility for training/testing)
That would rather surprise me.
Would it be resonable to think, that (as an example) Roger Federer stop playing tennis for 3 years, then come back only plays
10 matches (no training/testing) and goes on and wins a grand slam?



Not really a valid comparison, is it? I mean, Federer WOULD have 'training' and in terms of fitness we were assured last year that Michael was as fit as ever.

I don't think the comment needs 'explaining'; at the star of the season it was a passable excuse - Michael had been away for three years - but now it's not, as he hasn't. We can't go on excusing him for having been away for ever.

#4564 Ferrari_F1_fan_2001

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Posted 13 August 2010 - 08:45

So it takes a clown to understand exactly what M Schumacher is doing this year being out-classed, out-paced race after after race. I would check what they are mixing your bai jiu Mr lao wai. Your fantasy is becoming a bit alarming even for a clown ;-)

But come on opinions are for losers, we live in the present 2010 with factual information.

Rosberg = outscored M Schumacher by DOUBLE
Rosberg = outqualified M Schumacher by TRIPLE


Man,

While I respect your opinion and think you are a very intelligent person, I believe you're trying TOO hard with your anti-Schumacher rhetoric and there is an element of frustration in your posts. Nobody is going to win this argument and neither will the attempts to belittle Schumacher's achievements based on THIS season hold any weight without even at LEAST considering factors such as age, sabbatical, lack of testing, car design, developments etc.

If you can't factor those elements into your argument, there is very little point in screaming that Schumacher is/was rubbish all along (despite all those achievements);)

Was Ali's greatness diminished because he was beaten by Spinks and Berbick?

Was Tyson's greatness diminished because Kevin McBride beat him?

because that's the line of argument you persist in pursuing.......

Edited by Ferrari_F1_fan_2001, 13 August 2010 - 08:49.


#4565 man

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Posted 13 August 2010 - 08:45

:rotfl:

The time will tell. In each sport legend do eventually fall and they are beaten by younger guys who will have to prove that they are somethin special and I think Rosberg is not.


Time will not tell. No two drivers have the same circumstances throughout their careers. I highly doubt any driver in the future will ever have as many competitive or class of the field cars as M Schumacher has done. The only thing Rosberg can do is make the most of the opportunities he has and do do his job I.e be the one that brings home the bacon for the team and beat his teammate. Wins/wdc etc require variables out of a drivers control I.e competitive car in relation to the competition. Or would you rate Olivier Panis above Chris Amon or Jacques Villeneuve over his father?

#4566 Big Block 8

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Posted 13 August 2010 - 08:50

Let's just say I trust official team statements not as much as you seem to do, particularily not in difficult circumstances.

I always do take them with a pinch of salt, but a prolonged hoax with such an easily verifiable matter as tire problem would IMO be a difficult one.


By "star" drivers I mean the very top, and to me those are defined, among other things, by being able to extract the max under any sort of circumstance, which MS (evident by Rosbergs better performance) isn't able to anymore. On it's own, I perfectly sympathize with a driver mourning unsuitable equipment, but that only goes so far. In the end the results count and if they aren't forthcoming, tough luck, time to move on. To give two different examples, I think both Montoya and Räikönnen are more talented than what they're final stats suggest, but in the only reality available they weren't able to exploit it fully, and that's that. Nothing anyone can do about it.

I still think that any "very top" driver past or present would get beaten by a teammate considered "lesser", if the car doesn't suit him and it (unintentionally or intentionally) does for his teammate. Then it's up to the team to either change the car or change the driver, as they see fit. I agree that if they end up getting the short stick, tough luck.


Same goes for MS v2, he isn't able to deliver the max with what's available, and pinning ones hope on completely uncertain tyre charateristics in 2011 sounds pretty desperate to me, at best it's a bet with not too brilliant odds.

Sure it is, but it's all he's got. Interesting to see how it develops. Heidfeld is the tire tester fo Pirelli - does Schumacher and his connections have political leverage enough to make changes he needs? And if not, will he just get lucky?

#4567 Lifew12

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Posted 13 August 2010 - 08:52

Man,

While I respect your opinion and think you are a very intelligent person, I believe you're trying TOO hard with your anti-Schumacher rhetoric and there is an element of frustration in your posts. Nobody is going to win this argument and neither will the attempts to belittle Schumacher's achievements based on THIS season hold any weight without even at LEAST considering factors such as age, sabbatical, lack of testing, car design, developments etc.

If you can't factor those elements into your argument, there is very little point in screaming that Schumacher is/was rubbish all along (despite all those achievements);)


I agree with you that 'man' is a touch over zealous; I do share some of the sentiments expressed but cooling it a little may help.

As someone who is more an interested observer than a 'fan' or 'hater' it's always been of interest to me that if Michael's age, sabbatical, lack of testing - the car design and developments bit we can't label him with, after all - are so obviously a factor, and were clearly going to be, Mercedes Benz must have known that, too. Given that, and that their pre-season hype was all about winnign the title, and races, and the fact that the great man was coming back to help them do it, and Brawn's assertion that he is 'better than 99% of the field', why did they hire him? I;ve heard all teh arguments about merchandise sales and so on, and how his name is great to be associated with etc, but I still can't believe they hired him to sell t-shirts, and as for the name, well, Mercedes Benz itself isn't exactly an unknown quantity. The only logical reason for hiring him, as I;ve maintained all along, is that they believed he would win races, and challenge for the title. Granted, the car has not been up to it, but if we are to reduce expectations they surely expected him to beat his team mate? But therein lies the quandary - if we accept that he was always going to be slower because he has been away for three years, because he is older, because he has no testing, then Mercedes must - must - have also considered these factors. So why spend millions on a man you knew wasn't going to be up to it?

It doesn't really make sense.

#4568 Lifew12

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Posted 13 August 2010 - 08:54

Heidfeld is the tire tester fo Pirelli - does Schumacher and his connections have political leverage enough to make changes he needs?


If Heidfeld does, in fact, take on the role of testing for Pirelli he will not only have to leave his post at Mercedes but sign an agreement not to race in f1 next year.

#4569 man

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Posted 13 August 2010 - 08:54

Man,

While I respect your opinion and think you are a very intelligent person, I believe you're trying TOO hard with your anti-Schumacher rhetoric and there is an element of frustration in your posts. Nobody is going to win this argument and neither will the attempts to belittle Schumacher's achievements based on THIS season hold any weight without even at LEAST considering factors such as age, sabbatical, lack of testing, car design, developments etc.

If you can't factor those elements into your argument, there is very little point in screaming that Schumacher is/was rubbish all along (despite all those achievements);)


Excuse me! If you have read my posts I have factored in the aspects you have mentioned. I'm not screaming either. And I haven't said M Schumacher is rubbish. And I'm not trying too hard. So what exactly is the point of your post? ;-)

To me it seems you disagree with what I write which is fine;-) But like other M Schumacher apologists because you don't like what you read in my posts you want me to stop writing on the thread theme. ;-) The not so subtle subtext is "I don't like what you think, stop posting here". Sorry my friend, I can't do that. ;-)

#4570 Ferrari_F1_fan_2001

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Posted 13 August 2010 - 09:07

I agree with you that 'man' is a touch over zealous; I do share some of the sentiments expressed but cooling it a little may help.

As someone who is more an interested observer than a 'fan' or 'hater' it's always been of interest to me that if Michael's age, sabbatical, lack of testing - the car design and developments bit we can't label him with, after all - are so obviously a factor, and were clearly going to be, Mercedes Benz must have known that, too. Given that, and that their pre-season hype was all about winnign the title, and races, and the fact that the great man was coming back to help them do it, and Brawn's assertion that he is 'better than 99% of the field', why did they hire him? I;ve heard all teh arguments about merchandise sales and so on, and how his name is great to be associated with etc, but I still can't believe they hired him to sell t-shirts, and as for the name, well, Mercedes Benz itself isn't exactly an unknown quantity. The only logical reason for hiring him, as I;ve maintained all along, is that they believed he would win races, and challenge for the title. Granted, the car has not been up to it, but if we are to reduce expectations they surely expected him to beat his team mate? But therein lies the quandary - if we accept that he was always going to be slower because he has been away for three years, because he is older, because he has no testing, then Mercedes must - must - have also considered these factors. So why spend millions on a man you knew wasn't going to be up to it?

It doesn't really make sense.


I agree.

I saw no logical reason to come back personally. I think - like all greats - the bug bit too deep and Schumacher found it hard to let go. While his achievements will never be taken from him, I think his legacy will be tarnished is Rosberg will continue to beat him. His stubborness to let go (or never to admit weakness) may also be his undoing.

I also personally believe that Schumacher was hired to turn Mercedes into a dominant team like Ferrari. The 2010 car was a write off - the 2009 car lost its major advantage halfway through the season and lost its status by the seasons end - so the trend was always a downward trend (like Mclaren and their highs and lows seasonally). Schumacher does afterall have a proven pedigree and team building skills as well as greater technological ability and grasp. Contrast that to Rosberg - who is very quick - doesn't have the same degree of commitment and overall ability Schumacher has demonstrated in the past and it's apparent why Mercedes hired Schumacher. Whether that same level of glory can be achieved again only time will tell but I'm willing to bet that Schumacher WILL try - for the sake of his legacy.

2011 should be better but given the pedigree of BAR/HONDA I'm not expecting a miracle.

Also worth bearing in mind that Schumacher/Brawn expected a title challenge BEFORE turning a wheel in testing. Upon testing, their opinions - bar Rosberg's - quickly changed.

Edited by Ferrari_F1_fan_2001, 13 August 2010 - 09:16.


#4571 Ferrari_F1_fan_2001

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Posted 13 August 2010 - 09:12

Excuse me! If you have read my posts I have factored in the aspects you have mentioned. I'm not screaming either. And I haven't said M Schumacher is rubbish. And I'm not trying too hard. So what exactly is the point of your post? ;-)

To me it seems you disagree with what I write which is fine;-) But like other M Schumacher apologists because you don't like what you read in my posts you want me to stop writing on the thread theme. ;-) The not so subtle subtext is "I don't like what you think, stop posting here". Sorry my friend, I can't do that. ;-)


On the contrary, I welcome the debate. It is the Schumacher fanatics and fanboys who I have a hard time rationalising. You are intelligent and write very well. Therefore, personally, I think you would be great to debate with....

It's your other posts where I believe you try too hard to put the fanboys in their place by 'gloating'/screaming (I don't mean that as an insult by the way) about Schumacher's lack of success this season where I have a difficult time picking you out as one of the more intelligent posters.
:up:

Edited by Ferrari_F1_fan_2001, 13 August 2010 - 09:13.


#4572 Big Block 8

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Posted 13 August 2010 - 09:32

If Heidfeld does, in fact, take on the role of testing for Pirelli he will not only have to leave his post at Mercedes but sign an agreement not to race in f1 next year.


But if he gets the post he's going to get a lot of letters accompanied with assurances of all kinds of nice things in the future. It remains to be seen who he will listen to in the end.

How much exactly the tire tester's role has an actual effect in the process remains to be seen though. It could well be that he just drives around the track with a bunch of different settings and rubber compounds and Pirelli will then choose the compounds most suitable for those who they think makes a best bargain for them. Tricky stuff, I bet it's inevitable that some will benefit and some don't.

#4573 Paco

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Posted 13 August 2010 - 09:36

I agree with you that 'man' is a touch over zealous; I do share some of the sentiments expressed but cooling it a little may help.

As someone who is more an interested observer than a 'fan' or 'hater' it's always been of interest to me that if Michael's age, sabbatical, lack of testing - the car design and developments bit we can't label him with, after all - are so obviously a factor, and were clearly going to be, Mercedes Benz must have known that, too. Given that, and that their pre-season hype was all about winnign the title, and races, and the fact that the great man was coming back to help them do it, and Brawn's assertion that he is 'better than 99% of the field', why did they hire him? I;ve heard all teh arguments about merchandise sales and so on, and how his name is great to be associated with etc, but I still can't believe they hired him to sell t-shirts, and as for the name, well, Mercedes Benz itself isn't exactly an unknown quantity. The only logical reason for hiring him, as I;ve maintained all along, is that they believed he would win races, and challenge for the title. Granted, the car has not been up to it, but if we are to reduce expectations they surely expected him to beat his team mate? But therein lies the quandary - if we accept that he was always going to be slower because he has been away for three years, because he is older, because he has no testing, then Mercedes must - must - have also considered these factors. So why spend millions on a man you knew wasn't going to be up to it?

It doesn't really make sense.


1st .. Mercedes didn't know that Nico was going to be faster.. with the MGP001.
2nd.. Mercedes signed Michael for 3yrs not 1 so they have taken a longer term view of it then many on this board.
3rd.. Spend Millions.. cause signing Michael probably brought his salary by a factor of 10x or more by joining the team.. A wise investment indeed. Not a waste of money.
4th.. Michael critized the car from the word go.. where as Nico thought it was fine a winning car no less... We all know now who had the better view of how the 1st iteration of Merc was gonna pane out.
5th.. Nico has a done a solid job, no doubt. But it`s just that.. A solid job with a bad car..

Michael has definitely not and probably will not be able to find a way around the problems he has this year with this particular car. As shocking as it may be for most of us. Guess it`s a testament to the fact the cars and rules of today make it much harder to fix a problem simply by changing your driving style in a particular corner or setup. The cars are sooo driven by electronic and engineers. A good pilot is still important but it`s much more important to have a good car then a good driver. A great driver is still needed though to win a championship and that`s were Michael, Fernando, Mika, Jacques (he trumped HHF severely and took damon to the wire) are required. Button got lucky that Rubens didn`t come on earlier in the season.

So should Merc come out with a top 3, fast, reliable MGP002 race winning potential car next season that is balanced and with good electronics, then i would imagine Michael would once again be comfortably ahead of his teammate. Winners mindsets come to life ahead of the pack, not trolling around mid-field. When their isn`t a chance to win, most exceptional race-championship F1 pilots just don`t thrive or shine putting in laps and finishing 5th, 8th etc.

Edited by Paco, 13 August 2010 - 09:44.


#4574 Lifew12

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Posted 13 August 2010 - 09:42

2nd.. Mercedes signed Michael for 3yrs not 1 so they have taken a longer term view of it then many on this board.


In fact they signed him for one year with an option for two further. That's how most contracts are done these days.

While I can see the merits in some of your comments, Michael 'slashing his salary' doesn't make him a 'wise investment' unless he produces the goods. He - any driver - is a waste of millions if they are being out-performed by someone who costs a lot less.

#4575 Big Block 8

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Posted 13 August 2010 - 09:49

Michael has definitely not and probably will not be able to find a way around the problems he has this year with this particular car. As shocking as it may be for most of us. Guess it`s a testament to the fact the cars and rules of today make it much harder to fix a problem simply by changing your driving style in a particular corner or setup. The cars are sooo driven by electronic and engineers.


The effect of electronics is in fact less than it used to be due to the introduction of traction control ban and SECU. Same with the engineers, in the old days in case of a problem the drivers also had to change their driving style less, as with no testing limit the teams just tested between the GPs and the engineers introduced new parts to the car to help the drivers get around their problems.

Edited by Big Block 8, 13 August 2010 - 09:57.


#4576 Paco

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Posted 13 August 2010 - 10:08

In fact they signed him for one year with an option for two further. That's how most contracts are done these days.

While I can see the merits in some of your comments, Michael 'slashing his salary' doesn't make him a 'wise investment' unless he produces the goods. He - any driver - is a waste of millions if they are being out-performed by someone who costs a lot less.


That is if you take it for the 2010 on track results thus far but Michael has been providing feedback the whole season and much of that is being taken into consideration into next years car so his salary is reflection not only what he brings to the team on race weekends, but also what he contributes to the team in feedback for next years (which is well into development according the Merc) or and future season cars as well sponsorship opportunities that are available by having him on board

People need to realize that a persons salary is a reflection of great many things and not look at it as a impediment to developing a car, especially with someone like Michael. The only 2 drivers that I can think of the last 15years that their salary may.. may have been an issue is

1. Jacques - after BAT.. at Honda. Even then, that`s mostly a fabrication by Richards as the few millions Jacques was raking in wasn`t the root cause for the team not performing better. Even though Honda ran a season without sponsorship on their car.. what in the world were they thinking.

2. Kimi - at Ferrari .. not that many sponsors where chewing at the bit to come on board just because Kimi was at Ferrari so his high salary.. may.. and i use may loosely affected Ferrari a tiny bit.

So basically, a drivers salary is never never an issue for a team that is well funded. Back marker teams, absolutely it can hold things back and hence why most a pay for your seat drivers. Every dollar is valuable to them.

To projects like Ferrari, McLaren, Mercedes, RedBull, Toyota, BAT, Honda (if they had opened their purse strings a bit more).. what a driver is paid doesnt affect the teams ability to develop, put a car on the track or reflect a teams performance. Its simply a matter of what the team feels is a suitable salary to pay one of its employees for a great number of reasons.



#4577 flyer121

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Posted 13 August 2010 - 10:10

So should Merc come out with a top 3, fast, reliable MGP002 race winning potential car next season that is balanced and with good electronics, then i would imagine Michael would once again be comfortably ahead of his teammate. Winners mindsets come to life ahead of the pack, not trolling around mid-field. When their isn`t a chance to win, most exceptional race-championship F1 pilots just don`t thrive or shine putting in laps and finishing 5th, 8th etc.


Thats a strange argument but has been doing the rounds in this thread for some time.

Why will MS beat Nico only in a race winning car?
Are we arguing that once MS sees that there is no hope of winning a race , he doesnt even bother with trying to beat his own teammate? And thats a fair line to take.



#4578 Lifew12

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Posted 13 August 2010 - 10:14

So basically, a drivers salary is never never an issue for a team that is well funded.


I think you are guilty of a modicum of naivety here. It matters not how well funded a team is, if they are paying driver X more than driver Y yet it is the lesser paid who is delivering the goods there is much to consider. When your ultimate decisions are taking at board level, as they will be with Mercedes Benz, there will be plenty of questions as to why they continue to pay Michael Schumacher much more than Nico Rosberg when their is no discernible reason to do so.

#4579 Paco

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Posted 13 August 2010 - 10:16

The effect of electronics is in fact less than it used to be due to the introduction of traction control ban and SECU. Same with the engineers, in the old days in case of a problem the drivers also had to change their driving style less, as with no testing limit the teams just tested between the GPs and the engineers introduced new parts to the car to help the drivers get around their problems.


Thats just it. The effect of electronics may be less with a SECU but the fact that no driver can really do any testing this season except for a few laps on Friday means the effect of electronics and finding workarounds today is significantly more of an issue for a driver.

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#4580 Paco

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Posted 13 August 2010 - 10:34

I think you are guilty of a modicum of naivety here. It matters not how well funded a team is, if they are paying driver X more than driver Y yet it is the lesser paid who is delivering the goods there is much to consider. When your ultimate decisions are taking at board level, as they will be with Mercedes Benz, there will be plenty of questions as to why they continue to pay Michael Schumacher much more than Nico Rosberg when their is no discernible reason to do so.


X & Y are not necessarily linked. Looking at these circumstances, its even a greater situation in that you have what many consider to be the greatest driver of all time, a driver that has a history of uniting an entire team into a cohesive group, a driver like no other in history.. putting a dollar value to that is not acheivable.

As for continuing to pay a driver lower in the standings a higher pay... it isnt as if Michaels 1+2 year contract is up and its renewal time and they are now deciding whether to continue the relationship and how much that continued relationship is worth! I doubt there is a single person at MGP including Nico who is even given a moments thoughts to what Michael is getting paid and whether they overpaid etc. What's shocking is that you are..

Simple fact is, W01 is underperforming. Results from CFD and Windtunnel are not resulting in similar gains on track. That is the core of the issue for Mercedes right now. Neither of which is a drivers problem. Its an Engineering issue. So, at the end of the day, Im sure there is some serious questioning going on in the engineering department and who is getting paid what and who needs to be let go and who the ideal candidate is to come and replace those individuals.

IMO, Michael is probably bringing way more to the W02 (MGP002) then Nico is. That easily offsets his salary disparity on track with Nico. So its probably a wash. If anything, Nico is probably getting overpaid! He thought the W01 was a good car and capable of winning races or the championship. I wonder how much that set them back wondering what the hell is going on, why arent we winning with Nico says we should be.. . :rotfl: yet Michael says we have a serious design flaw :lol:

Jump to 2013.. if MGP is winning races and competiting at the front of the grid and Michael & Nico are still their pilots, I'm sure MGP would have considered it a very wise investment to pay the one of the greatest drivers of all time a salary greater then Nico in 2010.


Edited by Paco, 13 August 2010 - 10:47.


#4581 Big Block 8

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Posted 13 August 2010 - 10:41

Thats just it. The effect of electronics may be less with a SECU but the fact that no driver can really do any testing this season except for a few laps on Friday means the effect of electronics and finding workarounds today is significantly more of an issue for a driver.

Some would say the limited testing just brings forth the most adaptable drivers, as the electronics and engineers play now a bit lesser role.

IMO it's not that simple though, as the testing limit also causes that some drivers get stuck with things that benefit them just as much as some drivers get stuck with things that hinder them. So there's still no telling who adapted, who got lucky, who's team adapted the car for the driver and who's team got lucky adapting the car for the driver. :well:

#4582 tormave

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Posted 13 August 2010 - 10:51

IMO, Michael is probably bringing way more to the W02 (MGP002) then Nico is.

Bring more of what? They can't design a car around his championship trophies, you know.

#4583 Paco

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Posted 13 August 2010 - 11:03

Thats just it. The effect of electronics may be less with a SECU but the fact that no driver can really do any testing this season except for a few laps on Friday means the effect of electronics and finding workarounds today is significantly more of an issue for a driver.



Oh yeah.. i'd imagine a discussion with Ross would have gone something like this:

R: Michael.. come out of retirement and come race for MGP.
M: Sounds interesting.. i am kind of bored!
R: Wouldnt it be a great challenge and fun to build up another team?
M: Ross.. now you know i cant resist such an offer.
R: So.. done. You're now Merc #1 driver.
M: Fine. Who were you thinking for #2..
R: Probably Nico
M: Perfect
R: Done. I was thinking.. a 3 year agreement with you having the option out of it after year 2 or 3..
M: Sounds reasonable. If i like the situation, i'll stay on board.. if not, i'll just retire for good and take on a team position.. be on the wall with you??
R: Sounds good. Done. Was thinking something like 10m.. what do you think?
M: Whatever you think is fair and reasonable according to market conditions. What would Nico be making.
R: .. 15m..
M: Hmm... on the other hand... maybe i don't need to take on that risk or headache of media etc.
R: Come on Michael.. you know i was just kidding.. by having you on board we'd be able to get 50m-100m in sponsorship.. Plus I havent forgotten about all those championship and race wins.
M: Not funny :p So ... as long as Nico gets a less then me then go ahead get that 50m from Sponsor X..
R: WOW.. you're an excellent negotiator.. you drive a really hard bargain.
M: I couldn't make it easy for you.. you did win the championship with that diffuser last year know..
R: Thanks for the millions by the way to help pay off the FIA for that.. :rotfl:
M: :kiss:

Edited by Paco, 13 August 2010 - 11:06.


#4584 BRG

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Posted 13 August 2010 - 11:08

Bring more of what?

Chin.

#4585 Lifew12

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Posted 13 August 2010 - 11:11

.... Looking at these circumstances, its even a greater situation in that you have what many consider to be the greatest driver of all time, a driver that has a history of uniting an entire team into a cohesive group, a driver like no other in history.. putting a dollar value to that is not acheivable.


Mercedes Benz aren't paying for what he's done in the past, they are paying for now.

As for continuing to pay a driver lower in the standings a higher pay... it isnt as if Michaels 1+2 year contract is up and its renewal time and they are now deciding whether to continue the relationship and how much that continued relationship is worth! I doubt there is a single person at MGP including Nico who is even given a moments thoughts to what Michael is getting paid and whether they overpaid etc. What's shocking is that you are..


Again, you're displaying amazing naivety. Of course there will be people considering the worth of the relationship; you surely don't think they will be ignoring the fact that he's not performing as well as had been expected? F1 teams, especially those owned by manufacturers, are not charities, they are businesses. Michael is an expenditure, and one that will be endlessly questioned. There's nothing 'shocking' at all in that. It's quite simple.

Simple fact is, W01 is underperforming.


But that's not really the 'simple fact' at all is it? The car may not be the world beater the team hoped for, but one driver is performaing better than the other, and it's not the one expected to do so.

IMO, Michael is probably bringing way more to the W02 (MGP002) then Nico is.


Why, and how? I mean, let's be honest and fair here, Rosberg is pretty highly regarded in terms of intelligence and analytical talent, he't not an idiot.


Jump to 2013.. if MGP is winning races and competiting at the front of the grid and Michael & Nico are still their pilots, I'm sure MGP would have considered it a very wise investment to pay the one of the greatest drivers of all time a salary greater then Nico in 2010.


But you're assuming, quite oddly, that if the car becomes a winner Michael will suddenly beat Rosberg left, right and centre. Why should that be, given that we have them measured against each other in the same team, the same car, with the same problems affecting both, and Rosbergs on top?


#4586 Paco

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Posted 13 August 2010 - 11:16

Bring more of what? They can't design a car around his championship trophies, you know.


Ok.. that was funny.

You make it seem like a driver has no say in the direction that a car evolves into or that engineers don`t take into consideration how a driver likes to setup a car etc. No good having a car that has a characterisc to oversteer coming out of a highspeed corner when the driver perfers it to understear.. etc. Yeah neutral is the deal but there are certain perference that a driver may want if given the option i.e. a car gentle on tires or one that eats into them. A car that has a more forward left bias or one that is rear neutral etc.



#4587 Paco

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Posted 13 August 2010 - 11:20

Chin.



:rotfl:

#4588 ivand911

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Posted 13 August 2010 - 11:26

Is it so hard to visit Nico vs Michael thread when you discuss them or other topics? Or this thread is Recycle Bin of the forum?

Edited by ivand911, 13 August 2010 - 11:28.


#4589 baddog

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Posted 13 August 2010 - 12:08

But that's not really the 'simple fact' at all is it? The car may not be the world beater the team hoped for, but one driver is performaing better than the other, and it's not the one expected to do so.

It does not alter the fact that the team won the WDC last year, and their car is absolutely in no way the best, nor is it the second best or even third best taken over the season so far. It is 4th best with odd races where ferrari were in a hole putting it 3rd and other races where renault, williams and sauber have variously been as good or better.

This is because last year was a freak, we all really know that. Whether they can dig in and turn themselves into a proper WC contending team by next year is highly debatable, as is how Michael (and Nico!) will factor into that.

But right now the season is a failure, Rosbergs good driving and often decent though mixed results are some small consolation, but frankly they have to shoot higher, they have to see a couple of foot of the podium pickups as the failure it is.

#4590 ivand911

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Posted 13 August 2010 - 14:37

http://digitaleditio...m/trial/feb_25/
Article(from 25.02.2010) about Michael and his team-mates. Some hindsights for this year too.

#4591 SparkPlug

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Posted 13 August 2010 - 15:06

I say that is surely a contributor to his problems, yes. I didn't say it was the 'only' reason at all. You're fond of adding bits to my comments, I must say.

Allright then, now we're getting somewhere. So let us have a small recap :
1. You say, Schumacher's lack of pace this year is partly down to the fact that he doesnt have an all corseting team around him.
2. You also say, that him being out of the sport is not an issue anymore.

So may I ask you, what you think are these other contributing factors that have made MS slow ?


#4592 Boing 2

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Posted 13 August 2010 - 15:59

http://digitaleditio...m/trial/feb_25/
Article(from 25.02.2010) about Michael and his team-mates. Some hindsights for this year too.



After a few posters have claimed Herbert's lack of testing was down to poor ability, it's interesting to note that he was being frozen out of testing at the first session of the season.....

I also remember Irvine out qualifying MS at melbourne and not getting access to a single test session for something like a month and a half or 2 months.

#4593 TC3000

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Posted 13 August 2010 - 19:37

I agree with you that 'man' is a touch over zealous; I do share some of the sentiments expressed but cooling it a little may help.

As someone who is more an interested observer than a 'fan' or 'hater' it's always been of interest to me that if Michael's age, sabbatical, lack of testing - the car design and developments bit we can't label him with, after all - are so obviously a factor, and were clearly going to be, Mercedes Benz must have known that, too. Given that, and that their pre-season hype was all about winnign the title, and races, and the fact that the great man was coming back to help them do it, and Brawn's assertion that he is 'better than 99% of the field', why did they hire him? I;ve heard all teh arguments about merchandise sales and so on, and how his name is great to be associated with etc, but I still can't believe they hired him to sell t-shirts, and as for the name, well, Mercedes Benz itself isn't exactly an unknown quantity. The only logical reason for hiring him, as I;ve maintained all along, is that they believed he would win races, and challenge for the title. Granted, the car has not been up to it, but if we are to reduce expectations they surely expected him to beat his team mate? But therein lies the quandary - if we accept that he was always going to be slower because he has been away for three years, because he is older, because he has no testing, then Mercedes must - must - have also considered these factors. So why spend millions on a man you knew wasn't going to be up to it?

It doesn't really make sense.


Maybe they have a more long term plan?!?
There is little sense in argueing the facts this year, as it stands Rosberg is better (in terms of results/points) this year.
But what does it mean for next year or the year after?
To extrapolate this years performance into the future is a opinion/speculation - we will need to wait and see how it will pan out.
It can play out in both ways, so why are some people getting ahead of themself/time.

BTW: If I remember correctly M.S. has stated after they first tests, that he don´t think he/Mercedes will be able to fight for the WDC/WCC- sounds like a realistic statement to me.
Don´t no, where you have got this "hype" from. Can you back that up? Any article that MSC, Haugg or the Merceds board made these claims.


As for the other statement, I´, not talking about the fitness aspect.
I´m talking about being able the improve on your current performance by training.
I could have used a top piano player or chess grand master as a example.
If you think, that this is irrelevant, that´s o.k., than we agree to disagree in this respect - no problem.

If talent is the only thing that matters, why do teams spend millions of dollars in building simulators now??
If training does not matter, that does not look a sensible area to spend money for me?

#4594 britishtrident

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Posted 13 August 2010 - 19:48

snip

Was Tyson's greatness diminished because Kevin McBride beat him?

snip


No Tyson's greatness disappeared when he bit a chunk of his opponents ear off and that is without considering his 3 years in jail for a serious sexual assault.

Comparing him with Schumacher is wrong, Schumacher's very many on track transgressions added together aren't in the same league, although that doesn't make the Schumacher driving tactics acceptable to any real fan of the sport.



#4595 TC3000

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Posted 13 August 2010 - 19:51

That is if you take it for the 2010 on track results thus far but Michael has been providing feedback the whole season and much of that is being taken into consideration into next years car so his salary is reflection not only what he brings to the team on race weekends, but also what he contributes to the team in feedback for next years (which is well into development according the Merc) or and future season cars as well sponsorship opportunities that are available by having him on board

People need to realize that a persons salary is a reflection of great many things and not look at it as a impediment to developing a car, especially with someone like Michael. The only 2 drivers that I can think of the last 15years that their salary may.. may have been an issue is

1. Jacques - after BAT.. at Honda. Even then, that`s mostly a fabrication by Richards as the few millions Jacques was raking in wasn`t the root cause for the team not performing better. Even though Honda ran a season without sponsorship on their car.. what in the world were they thinking.

2. Kimi - at Ferrari .. not that many sponsors where chewing at the bit to come on board just because Kimi was at Ferrari so his high salary.. may.. and i use may loosely affected Ferrari a tiny bit.

So basically, a drivers salary is never never an issue for a team that is well funded. Back marker teams, absolutely it can hold things back and hence why most a pay for your seat drivers. Every dollar is valuable to them.

To projects like Ferrari, McLaren, Mercedes, RedBull, Toyota, BAT, Honda (if they had opened their purse strings a bit more).. what a driver is paid doesnt affect the teams ability to develop, put a car on the track or reflect a teams performance. Its simply a matter of what the team feels is a suitable salary to pay one of its employees for a great number of reasons.

:up: - well said

#4596 TC3000

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Posted 13 August 2010 - 20:07

Bring more of what? They can't design a car around his championship trophies, you know.



Expirience
You can´t ask a blind person how a Picasso looks like.
As Nico has never driven a championship winning F1 car, he does not know how it´feels.
You never know what you don´t know, so it helps if you have someone with a wider view,
to make comparsions in a better context.
Nico, can say - that car feels better then the Williams did, fair comment, but he still does not know
how far that car was off a McLaren, Ferrari or Brawn.

Your last comment is correct - however

#4597 slaveceru

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Posted 13 August 2010 - 20:42

Time will not tell. No two drivers have the same circumstances throughout their careers. I highly doubt any driver in the future will ever have as many competitive or class of the field cars as M Schumacher has done. The only thing Rosberg can do is make the most of the opportunities he has and do do his job I.e be the one that brings home the bacon for the team and beat his teammate. Wins/wdc etc require variables out of a drivers control I.e competitive car in relation to the competition. Or would you rate Olivier Panis above Chris Amon or Jacques Villeneuve over his father?

You are saying that in the future there will be no more legends are you for real mate?

#4598 sir jackie walker

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Posted 13 August 2010 - 21:20

As Nico has never driven a championship winning F1 car, he does not know how it´feels.

You do realize the goalposts, uh, kind of keep moving? A car that feels like B194 is 16 years old. No doubt experience helps... but a 'feel of championship car'? Seriously?



#4599 eoin

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Posted 13 August 2010 - 22:30

You do realize the goalposts, uh, kind of keep moving? A car that feels like B194 is 16 years old. No doubt experience helps... but a 'feel of championship car'? Seriously?


If a car isn't doing what you want it to do then it's more than likely not good enough to fight for the title-that's all it means.

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#4600 TC3000

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Posted 13 August 2010 - 23:07

You do realize the goalposts, uh, kind of keep moving? A car that feels like B194 is 16 years old. No doubt experience helps... but a 'feel of championship car'? Seriously?


Fair comment - but the B194 was not exactly the last championship winning car he drove.
Nevertheless, M.S. knows how some things are done which Nico don´t, this has nothing to do,
with intelligence or one being smarter then the other, it´s purely down to expirience.
I think the two make a good combination, and Merc has covered all the bases for the future.
Nico is in a good and for him quite comfortable position.

He can´t really lose at the moment. If he would have been a bit slower then MCS,
people would have said, yeah it´s M.S. he is up against, what do you expect - there was/is not that much pressure for him.
He could/can only win in the current situation.

Now, that he is faster then M.S., he is raising his market value, and doing himself a favour.
In the moment he does everything right, so good on him.
If he keeps beating M.S. thats fantastic for him, but if it´s good enough to be WDC one day, remains to be seen.

I would have liked to see him race alongside Hamilton at McLaren or Vettel at RBR.
To see how good he is in comparsion to them.
Nevertheless, he is in a good place IMO, and things don´t look bad for him for the future.