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#4551 Lifew12

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Posted 13 August 2010 - 07:53

He was also publicly testing for McLaren at least a year before he came back.


No he wasn't. I believe Lauda's first test in the Mclaren was in October of 81; testing in those days wasn;t anywhere near as intense as it is even now, with the in season ban.

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#4552 Lifew12

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Posted 13 August 2010 - 07:56

Hi Lifew12

I agree with what you say in general, and think it´s sensible.
But I would like you to explain this comment to me:

>>> I don't buy the 'three years out' excuse for one simple reason - he's no longer been away for three years. <<<

Do you think, that in any sport somebody can stop for 3 years, come back and be still at the top of their game? (without the possibility for training/testing)
That would rather surprise me.
Would it be resonable to think, that (as an example) Roger Federer stop playing tennis for 3 years, then come back only plays
10 matches (no training/testing) and goes on and wins a grand slam?



Not really a valid comparison, is it? I mean, Federer WOULD have 'training' and in terms of fitness we were assured last year that Michael was as fit as ever.

I don't think the comment needs 'explaining'; at the star of the season it was a passable excuse - Michael had been away for three years - but now it's not, as he hasn't. We can't go on excusing him for having been away for ever.

#4553 Ferrari_F1_fan_2001

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Posted 13 August 2010 - 08:45

So it takes a clown to understand exactly what M Schumacher is doing this year being out-classed, out-paced race after after race. I would check what they are mixing your bai jiu Mr lao wai. Your fantasy is becoming a bit alarming even for a clown ;-)

But come on opinions are for losers, we live in the present 2010 with factual information.

Rosberg = outscored M Schumacher by DOUBLE
Rosberg = outqualified M Schumacher by TRIPLE


Man,

While I respect your opinion and think you are a very intelligent person, I believe you're trying TOO hard with your anti-Schumacher rhetoric and there is an element of frustration in your posts. Nobody is going to win this argument and neither will the attempts to belittle Schumacher's achievements based on THIS season hold any weight without even at LEAST considering factors such as age, sabbatical, lack of testing, car design, developments etc.

If you can't factor those elements into your argument, there is very little point in screaming that Schumacher is/was rubbish all along (despite all those achievements);)

Was Ali's greatness diminished because he was beaten by Spinks and Berbick?

Was Tyson's greatness diminished because Kevin McBride beat him?

because that's the line of argument you persist in pursuing.......

Edited by Ferrari_F1_fan_2001, 13 August 2010 - 08:49.


#4554 man

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Posted 13 August 2010 - 08:45

:rotfl:

The time will tell. In each sport legend do eventually fall and they are beaten by younger guys who will have to prove that they are somethin special and I think Rosberg is not.


Time will not tell. No two drivers have the same circumstances throughout their careers. I highly doubt any driver in the future will ever have as many competitive or class of the field cars as M Schumacher has done. The only thing Rosberg can do is make the most of the opportunities he has and do do his job I.e be the one that brings home the bacon for the team and beat his teammate. Wins/wdc etc require variables out of a drivers control I.e competitive car in relation to the competition. Or would you rate Olivier Panis above Chris Amon or Jacques Villeneuve over his father?

#4555 Big Block 8

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Posted 13 August 2010 - 08:50

Let's just say I trust official team statements not as much as you seem to do, particularily not in difficult circumstances.

I always do take them with a pinch of salt, but a prolonged hoax with such an easily verifiable matter as tire problem would IMO be a difficult one.


By "star" drivers I mean the very top, and to me those are defined, among other things, by being able to extract the max under any sort of circumstance, which MS (evident by Rosbergs better performance) isn't able to anymore. On it's own, I perfectly sympathize with a driver mourning unsuitable equipment, but that only goes so far. In the end the results count and if they aren't forthcoming, tough luck, time to move on. To give two different examples, I think both Montoya and Räikönnen are more talented than what they're final stats suggest, but in the only reality available they weren't able to exploit it fully, and that's that. Nothing anyone can do about it.

I still think that any "very top" driver past or present would get beaten by a teammate considered "lesser", if the car doesn't suit him and it (unintentionally or intentionally) does for his teammate. Then it's up to the team to either change the car or change the driver, as they see fit. I agree that if they end up getting the short stick, tough luck.


Same goes for MS v2, he isn't able to deliver the max with what's available, and pinning ones hope on completely uncertain tyre charateristics in 2011 sounds pretty desperate to me, at best it's a bet with not too brilliant odds.

Sure it is, but it's all he's got. Interesting to see how it develops. Heidfeld is the tire tester fo Pirelli - does Schumacher and his connections have political leverage enough to make changes he needs? And if not, will he just get lucky?

#4556 Lifew12

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Posted 13 August 2010 - 08:52

Man,

While I respect your opinion and think you are a very intelligent person, I believe you're trying TOO hard with your anti-Schumacher rhetoric and there is an element of frustration in your posts. Nobody is going to win this argument and neither will the attempts to belittle Schumacher's achievements based on THIS season hold any weight without even at LEAST considering factors such as age, sabbatical, lack of testing, car design, developments etc.

If you can't factor those elements into your argument, there is very little point in screaming that Schumacher is/was rubbish all along (despite all those achievements);)


I agree with you that 'man' is a touch over zealous; I do share some of the sentiments expressed but cooling it a little may help.

As someone who is more an interested observer than a 'fan' or 'hater' it's always been of interest to me that if Michael's age, sabbatical, lack of testing - the car design and developments bit we can't label him with, after all - are so obviously a factor, and were clearly going to be, Mercedes Benz must have known that, too. Given that, and that their pre-season hype was all about winnign the title, and races, and the fact that the great man was coming back to help them do it, and Brawn's assertion that he is 'better than 99% of the field', why did they hire him? I;ve heard all teh arguments about merchandise sales and so on, and how his name is great to be associated with etc, but I still can't believe they hired him to sell t-shirts, and as for the name, well, Mercedes Benz itself isn't exactly an unknown quantity. The only logical reason for hiring him, as I;ve maintained all along, is that they believed he would win races, and challenge for the title. Granted, the car has not been up to it, but if we are to reduce expectations they surely expected him to beat his team mate? But therein lies the quandary - if we accept that he was always going to be slower because he has been away for three years, because he is older, because he has no testing, then Mercedes must - must - have also considered these factors. So why spend millions on a man you knew wasn't going to be up to it?

It doesn't really make sense.

#4557 Lifew12

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Posted 13 August 2010 - 08:54

Heidfeld is the tire tester fo Pirelli - does Schumacher and his connections have political leverage enough to make changes he needs?


If Heidfeld does, in fact, take on the role of testing for Pirelli he will not only have to leave his post at Mercedes but sign an agreement not to race in f1 next year.

#4558 man

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Posted 13 August 2010 - 08:54

Man,

While I respect your opinion and think you are a very intelligent person, I believe you're trying TOO hard with your anti-Schumacher rhetoric and there is an element of frustration in your posts. Nobody is going to win this argument and neither will the attempts to belittle Schumacher's achievements based on THIS season hold any weight without even at LEAST considering factors such as age, sabbatical, lack of testing, car design, developments etc.

If you can't factor those elements into your argument, there is very little point in screaming that Schumacher is/was rubbish all along (despite all those achievements);)


Excuse me! If you have read my posts I have factored in the aspects you have mentioned. I'm not screaming either. And I haven't said M Schumacher is rubbish. And I'm not trying too hard. So what exactly is the point of your post? ;-)

To me it seems you disagree with what I write which is fine;-) But like other M Schumacher apologists because you don't like what you read in my posts you want me to stop writing on the thread theme. ;-) The not so subtle subtext is "I don't like what you think, stop posting here". Sorry my friend, I can't do that. ;-)

#4559 Ferrari_F1_fan_2001

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Posted 13 August 2010 - 09:07

I agree with you that 'man' is a touch over zealous; I do share some of the sentiments expressed but cooling it a little may help.

As someone who is more an interested observer than a 'fan' or 'hater' it's always been of interest to me that if Michael's age, sabbatical, lack of testing - the car design and developments bit we can't label him with, after all - are so obviously a factor, and were clearly going to be, Mercedes Benz must have known that, too. Given that, and that their pre-season hype was all about winnign the title, and races, and the fact that the great man was coming back to help them do it, and Brawn's assertion that he is 'better than 99% of the field', why did they hire him? I;ve heard all teh arguments about merchandise sales and so on, and how his name is great to be associated with etc, but I still can't believe they hired him to sell t-shirts, and as for the name, well, Mercedes Benz itself isn't exactly an unknown quantity. The only logical reason for hiring him, as I;ve maintained all along, is that they believed he would win races, and challenge for the title. Granted, the car has not been up to it, but if we are to reduce expectations they surely expected him to beat his team mate? But therein lies the quandary - if we accept that he was always going to be slower because he has been away for three years, because he is older, because he has no testing, then Mercedes must - must - have also considered these factors. So why spend millions on a man you knew wasn't going to be up to it?

It doesn't really make sense.


I agree.

I saw no logical reason to come back personally. I think - like all greats - the bug bit too deep and Schumacher found it hard to let go. While his achievements will never be taken from him, I think his legacy will be tarnished is Rosberg will continue to beat him. His stubborness to let go (or never to admit weakness) may also be his undoing.

I also personally believe that Schumacher was hired to turn Mercedes into a dominant team like Ferrari. The 2010 car was a write off - the 2009 car lost its major advantage halfway through the season and lost its status by the seasons end - so the trend was always a downward trend (like Mclaren and their highs and lows seasonally). Schumacher does afterall have a proven pedigree and team building skills as well as greater technological ability and grasp. Contrast that to Rosberg - who is very quick - doesn't have the same degree of commitment and overall ability Schumacher has demonstrated in the past and it's apparent why Mercedes hired Schumacher. Whether that same level of glory can be achieved again only time will tell but I'm willing to bet that Schumacher WILL try - for the sake of his legacy.

2011 should be better but given the pedigree of BAR/HONDA I'm not expecting a miracle.

Also worth bearing in mind that Schumacher/Brawn expected a title challenge BEFORE turning a wheel in testing. Upon testing, their opinions - bar Rosberg's - quickly changed.

Edited by Ferrari_F1_fan_2001, 13 August 2010 - 09:16.


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#4560 Ferrari_F1_fan_2001

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Posted 13 August 2010 - 09:12

Excuse me! If you have read my posts I have factored in the aspects you have mentioned. I'm not screaming either. And I haven't said M Schumacher is rubbish. And I'm not trying too hard. So what exactly is the point of your post? ;-)

To me it seems you disagree with what I write which is fine;-) But like other M Schumacher apologists because you don't like what you read in my posts you want me to stop writing on the thread theme. ;-) The not so subtle subtext is "I don't like what you think, stop posting here". Sorry my friend, I can't do that. ;-)


On the contrary, I welcome the debate. It is the Schumacher fanatics and fanboys who I have a hard time rationalising. You are intelligent and write very well. Therefore, personally, I think you would be great to debate with....

It's your other posts where I believe you try too hard to put the fanboys in their place by 'gloating'/screaming (I don't mean that as an insult by the way) about Schumacher's lack of success this season where I have a difficult time picking you out as one of the more intelligent posters.
:up:

Edited by Ferrari_F1_fan_2001, 13 August 2010 - 09:13.


#4561 Big Block 8

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Posted 13 August 2010 - 09:32

If Heidfeld does, in fact, take on the role of testing for Pirelli he will not only have to leave his post at Mercedes but sign an agreement not to race in f1 next year.


But if he gets the post he's going to get a lot of letters accompanied with assurances of all kinds of nice things in the future. It remains to be seen who he will listen to in the end.

How much exactly the tire tester's role has an actual effect in the process remains to be seen though. It could well be that he just drives around the track with a bunch of different settings and rubber compounds and Pirelli will then choose the compounds most suitable for those who they think makes a best bargain for them. Tricky stuff, I bet it's inevitable that some will benefit and some don't.

#4562 Paco

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Posted 13 August 2010 - 09:36

I agree with you that 'man' is a touch over zealous; I do share some of the sentiments expressed but cooling it a little may help.

As someone who is more an interested observer than a 'fan' or 'hater' it's always been of interest to me that if Michael's age, sabbatical, lack of testing - the car design and developments bit we can't label him with, after all - are so obviously a factor, and were clearly going to be, Mercedes Benz must have known that, too. Given that, and that their pre-season hype was all about winnign the title, and races, and the fact that the great man was coming back to help them do it, and Brawn's assertion that he is 'better than 99% of the field', why did they hire him? I;ve heard all teh arguments about merchandise sales and so on, and how his name is great to be associated with etc, but I still can't believe they hired him to sell t-shirts, and as for the name, well, Mercedes Benz itself isn't exactly an unknown quantity. The only logical reason for hiring him, as I;ve maintained all along, is that they believed he would win races, and challenge for the title. Granted, the car has not been up to it, but if we are to reduce expectations they surely expected him to beat his team mate? But therein lies the quandary - if we accept that he was always going to be slower because he has been away for three years, because he is older, because he has no testing, then Mercedes must - must - have also considered these factors. So why spend millions on a man you knew wasn't going to be up to it?

It doesn't really make sense.


1st .. Mercedes didn't know that Nico was going to be faster.. with the MGP001.
2nd.. Mercedes signed Michael for 3yrs not 1 so they have taken a longer term view of it then many on this board.
3rd.. Spend Millions.. cause signing Michael probably brought his salary by a factor of 10x or more by joining the team.. A wise investment indeed. Not a waste of money.
4th.. Michael critized the car from the word go.. where as Nico thought it was fine a winning car no less... We all know now who had the better view of how the 1st iteration of Merc was gonna pane out.
5th.. Nico has a done a solid job, no doubt. But it`s just that.. A solid job with a bad car..

Michael has definitely not and probably will not be able to find a way around the problems he has this year with this particular car. As shocking as it may be for most of us. Guess it`s a testament to the fact the cars and rules of today make it much harder to fix a problem simply by changing your driving style in a particular corner or setup. The cars are sooo driven by electronic and engineers. A good pilot is still important but it`s much more important to have a good car then a good driver. A great driver is still needed though to win a championship and that`s were Michael, Fernando, Mika, Jacques (he trumped HHF severely and took damon to the wire) are required. Button got lucky that Rubens didn`t come on earlier in the season.

So should Merc come out with a top 3, fast, reliable MGP002 race winning potential car next season that is balanced and with good electronics, then i would imagine Michael would once again be comfortably ahead of his teammate. Winners mindsets come to life ahead of the pack, not trolling around mid-field. When their isn`t a chance to win, most exceptional race-championship F1 pilots just don`t thrive or shine putting in laps and finishing 5th, 8th etc.

Edited by Paco, 13 August 2010 - 09:44.


#4563 Lifew12

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Posted 13 August 2010 - 09:42

2nd.. Mercedes signed Michael for 3yrs not 1 so they have taken a longer term view of it then many on this board.


In fact they signed him for one year with an option for two further. That's how most contracts are done these days.

While I can see the merits in some of your comments, Michael 'slashing his salary' doesn't make him a 'wise investment' unless he produces the goods. He - any driver - is a waste of millions if they are being out-performed by someone who costs a lot less.

#4564 Big Block 8

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Posted 13 August 2010 - 09:49

Michael has definitely not and probably will not be able to find a way around the problems he has this year with this particular car. As shocking as it may be for most of us. Guess it`s a testament to the fact the cars and rules of today make it much harder to fix a problem simply by changing your driving style in a particular corner or setup. The cars are sooo driven by electronic and engineers.


The effect of electronics is in fact less than it used to be due to the introduction of traction control ban and SECU. Same with the engineers, in the old days in case of a problem the drivers also had to change their driving style less, as with no testing limit the teams just tested between the GPs and the engineers introduced new parts to the car to help the drivers get around their problems.

Edited by Big Block 8, 13 August 2010 - 09:57.


#4565 Paco

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Posted 13 August 2010 - 10:08

In fact they signed him for one year with an option for two further. That's how most contracts are done these days.

While I can see the merits in some of your comments, Michael 'slashing his salary' doesn't make him a 'wise investment' unless he produces the goods. He - any driver - is a waste of millions if they are being out-performed by someone who costs a lot less.


That is if you take it for the 2010 on track results thus far but Michael has been providing feedback the whole season and much of that is being taken into consideration into next years car so his salary is reflection not only what he brings to the team on race weekends, but also what he contributes to the team in feedback for next years (which is well into development according the Merc) or and future season cars as well sponsorship opportunities that are available by having him on board

People need to realize that a persons salary is a reflection of great many things and not look at it as a impediment to developing a car, especially with someone like Michael. The only 2 drivers that I can think of the last 15years that their salary may.. may have been an issue is

1. Jacques - after BAT.. at Honda. Even then, that`s mostly a fabrication by Richards as the few millions Jacques was raking in wasn`t the root cause for the team not performing better. Even though Honda ran a season without sponsorship on their car.. what in the world were they thinking.

2. Kimi - at Ferrari .. not that many sponsors where chewing at the bit to come on board just because Kimi was at Ferrari so his high salary.. may.. and i use may loosely affected Ferrari a tiny bit.

So basically, a drivers salary is never never an issue for a team that is well funded. Back marker teams, absolutely it can hold things back and hence why most a pay for your seat drivers. Every dollar is valuable to them.

To projects like Ferrari, McLaren, Mercedes, RedBull, Toyota, BAT, Honda (if they had opened their purse strings a bit more).. what a driver is paid doesnt affect the teams ability to develop, put a car on the track or reflect a teams performance. Its simply a matter of what the team feels is a suitable salary to pay one of its employees for a great number of reasons.



#4566 flyer121

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Posted 13 August 2010 - 10:10

So should Merc come out with a top 3, fast, reliable MGP002 race winning potential car next season that is balanced and with good electronics, then i would imagine Michael would once again be comfortably ahead of his teammate. Winners mindsets come to life ahead of the pack, not trolling around mid-field. When their isn`t a chance to win, most exceptional race-championship F1 pilots just don`t thrive or shine putting in laps and finishing 5th, 8th etc.


Thats a strange argument but has been doing the rounds in this thread for some time.

Why will MS beat Nico only in a race winning car?
Are we arguing that once MS sees that there is no hope of winning a race , he doesnt even bother with trying to beat his own teammate? And thats a fair line to take.



#4567 Lifew12

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Posted 13 August 2010 - 10:14

So basically, a drivers salary is never never an issue for a team that is well funded.


I think you are guilty of a modicum of naivety here. It matters not how well funded a team is, if they are paying driver X more than driver Y yet it is the lesser paid who is delivering the goods there is much to consider. When your ultimate decisions are taking at board level, as they will be with Mercedes Benz, there will be plenty of questions as to why they continue to pay Michael Schumacher much more than Nico Rosberg when their is no discernible reason to do so.

#4568 Paco

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Posted 13 August 2010 - 10:16

The effect of electronics is in fact less than it used to be due to the introduction of traction control ban and SECU. Same with the engineers, in the old days in case of a problem the drivers also had to change their driving style less, as with no testing limit the teams just tested between the GPs and the engineers introduced new parts to the car to help the drivers get around their problems.


Thats just it. The effect of electronics may be less with a SECU but the fact that no driver can really do any testing this season except for a few laps on Friday means the effect of electronics and finding workarounds today is significantly more of an issue for a driver.

#4569 Paco

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Posted 13 August 2010 - 10:34

I think you are guilty of a modicum of naivety here. It matters not how well funded a team is, if they are paying driver X more than driver Y yet it is the lesser paid who is delivering the goods there is much to consider. When your ultimate decisions are taking at board level, as they will be with Mercedes Benz, there will be plenty of questions as to why they continue to pay Michael Schumacher much more than Nico Rosberg when their is no discernible reason to do so.


X & Y are not necessarily linked. Looking at these circumstances, its even a greater situation in that you have what many consider to be the greatest driver of all time, a driver that has a history of uniting an entire team into a cohesive group, a driver like no other in history.. putting a dollar value to that is not acheivable.

As for continuing to pay a driver lower in the standings a higher pay... it isnt as if Michaels 1+2 year contract is up and its renewal time and they are now deciding whether to continue the relationship and how much that continued relationship is worth! I doubt there is a single person at MGP including Nico who is even given a moments thoughts to what Michael is getting paid and whether they overpaid etc. What's shocking is that you are..

Simple fact is, W01 is underperforming. Results from CFD and Windtunnel are not resulting in similar gains on track. That is the core of the issue for Mercedes right now. Neither of which is a drivers problem. Its an Engineering issue. So, at the end of the day, Im sure there is some serious questioning going on in the engineering department and who is getting paid what and who needs to be let go and who the ideal candidate is to come and replace those individuals.

IMO, Michael is probably bringing way more to the W02 (MGP002) then Nico is. That easily offsets his salary disparity on track with Nico. So its probably a wash. If anything, Nico is probably getting overpaid! He thought the W01 was a good car and capable of winning races or the championship. I wonder how much that set them back wondering what the hell is going on, why arent we winning with Nico says we should be.. . :rotfl: yet Michael says we have a serious design flaw :lol:

Jump to 2013.. if MGP is winning races and competiting at the front of the grid and Michael & Nico are still their pilots, I'm sure MGP would have considered it a very wise investment to pay the one of the greatest drivers of all time a salary greater then Nico in 2010.


Edited by Paco, 13 August 2010 - 10:47.


#4570 Big Block 8

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Posted 13 August 2010 - 10:41

Thats just it. The effect of electronics may be less with a SECU but the fact that no driver can really do any testing this season except for a few laps on Friday means the effect of electronics and finding workarounds today is significantly more of an issue for a driver.

Some would say the limited testing just brings forth the most adaptable drivers, as the electronics and engineers play now a bit lesser role.

IMO it's not that simple though, as the testing limit also causes that some drivers get stuck with things that benefit them just as much as some drivers get stuck with things that hinder them. So there's still no telling who adapted, who got lucky, who's team adapted the car for the driver and who's team got lucky adapting the car for the driver. :well:

#4571 tormave

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Posted 13 August 2010 - 10:51

IMO, Michael is probably bringing way more to the W02 (MGP002) then Nico is.

Bring more of what? They can't design a car around his championship trophies, you know.

#4572 Paco

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Posted 13 August 2010 - 11:03

Thats just it. The effect of electronics may be less with a SECU but the fact that no driver can really do any testing this season except for a few laps on Friday means the effect of electronics and finding workarounds today is significantly more of an issue for a driver.



Oh yeah.. i'd imagine a discussion with Ross would have gone something like this:

R: Michael.. come out of retirement and come race for MGP.
M: Sounds interesting.. i am kind of bored!
R: Wouldnt it be a great challenge and fun to build up another team?
M: Ross.. now you know i cant resist such an offer.
R: So.. done. You're now Merc #1 driver.
M: Fine. Who were you thinking for #2..
R: Probably Nico
M: Perfect
R: Done. I was thinking.. a 3 year agreement with you having the option out of it after year 2 or 3..
M: Sounds reasonable. If i like the situation, i'll stay on board.. if not, i'll just retire for good and take on a team position.. be on the wall with you??
R: Sounds good. Done. Was thinking something like 10m.. what do you think?
M: Whatever you think is fair and reasonable according to market conditions. What would Nico be making.
R: .. 15m..
M: Hmm... on the other hand... maybe i don't need to take on that risk or headache of media etc.
R: Come on Michael.. you know i was just kidding.. by having you on board we'd be able to get 50m-100m in sponsorship.. Plus I havent forgotten about all those championship and race wins.
M: Not funny :p So ... as long as Nico gets a less then me then go ahead get that 50m from Sponsor X..
R: WOW.. you're an excellent negotiator.. you drive a really hard bargain.
M: I couldn't make it easy for you.. you did win the championship with that diffuser last year know..
R: Thanks for the millions by the way to help pay off the FIA for that.. :rotfl:
M: :kiss:

Edited by Paco, 13 August 2010 - 11:06.


#4573 BRG

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Posted 13 August 2010 - 11:08

Bring more of what?

Chin.

#4574 Lifew12

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Posted 13 August 2010 - 11:11

.... Looking at these circumstances, its even a greater situation in that you have what many consider to be the greatest driver of all time, a driver that has a history of uniting an entire team into a cohesive group, a driver like no other in history.. putting a dollar value to that is not acheivable.


Mercedes Benz aren't paying for what he's done in the past, they are paying for now.

As for continuing to pay a driver lower in the standings a higher pay... it isnt as if Michaels 1+2 year contract is up and its renewal time and they are now deciding whether to continue the relationship and how much that continued relationship is worth! I doubt there is a single person at MGP including Nico who is even given a moments thoughts to what Michael is getting paid and whether they overpaid etc. What's shocking is that you are..


Again, you're displaying amazing naivety. Of course there will be people considering the worth of the relationship; you surely don't think they will be ignoring the fact that he's not performing as well as had been expected? F1 teams, especially those owned by manufacturers, are not charities, they are businesses. Michael is an expenditure, and one that will be endlessly questioned. There's nothing 'shocking' at all in that. It's quite simple.

Simple fact is, W01 is underperforming.


But that's not really the 'simple fact' at all is it? The car may not be the world beater the team hoped for, but one driver is performaing better than the other, and it's not the one expected to do so.

IMO, Michael is probably bringing way more to the W02 (MGP002) then Nico is.


Why, and how? I mean, let's be honest and fair here, Rosberg is pretty highly regarded in terms of intelligence and analytical talent, he't not an idiot.


Jump to 2013.. if MGP is winning races and competiting at the front of the grid and Michael & Nico are still their pilots, I'm sure MGP would have considered it a very wise investment to pay the one of the greatest drivers of all time a salary greater then Nico in 2010.


But you're assuming, quite oddly, that if the car becomes a winner Michael will suddenly beat Rosberg left, right and centre. Why should that be, given that we have them measured against each other in the same team, the same car, with the same problems affecting both, and Rosbergs on top?


#4575 Paco

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Posted 13 August 2010 - 11:16

Bring more of what? They can't design a car around his championship trophies, you know.


Ok.. that was funny.

You make it seem like a driver has no say in the direction that a car evolves into or that engineers don`t take into consideration how a driver likes to setup a car etc. No good having a car that has a characterisc to oversteer coming out of a highspeed corner when the driver perfers it to understear.. etc. Yeah neutral is the deal but there are certain perference that a driver may want if given the option i.e. a car gentle on tires or one that eats into them. A car that has a more forward left bias or one that is rear neutral etc.



#4576 Paco

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Posted 13 August 2010 - 11:20

Chin.



:rotfl:

#4577 ivand911

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Posted 13 August 2010 - 11:26

Is it so hard to visit Nico vs Michael thread when you discuss them or other topics? Or this thread is Recycle Bin of the forum?

Edited by ivand911, 13 August 2010 - 11:28.


#4578 baddog

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Posted 13 August 2010 - 12:08

But that's not really the 'simple fact' at all is it? The car may not be the world beater the team hoped for, but one driver is performaing better than the other, and it's not the one expected to do so.

It does not alter the fact that the team won the WDC last year, and their car is absolutely in no way the best, nor is it the second best or even third best taken over the season so far. It is 4th best with odd races where ferrari were in a hole putting it 3rd and other races where renault, williams and sauber have variously been as good or better.

This is because last year was a freak, we all really know that. Whether they can dig in and turn themselves into a proper WC contending team by next year is highly debatable, as is how Michael (and Nico!) will factor into that.

But right now the season is a failure, Rosbergs good driving and often decent though mixed results are some small consolation, but frankly they have to shoot higher, they have to see a couple of foot of the podium pickups as the failure it is.

#4579 ivand911

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Posted 13 August 2010 - 14:37

http://digitaleditio...m/trial/feb_25/
Article(from 25.02.2010) about Michael and his team-mates. Some hindsights for this year too.

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#4580 SparkPlug

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Posted 13 August 2010 - 15:06

I say that is surely a contributor to his problems, yes. I didn't say it was the 'only' reason at all. You're fond of adding bits to my comments, I must say.

Allright then, now we're getting somewhere. So let us have a small recap :
1. You say, Schumacher's lack of pace this year is partly down to the fact that he doesnt have an all corseting team around him.
2. You also say, that him being out of the sport is not an issue anymore.

So may I ask you, what you think are these other contributing factors that have made MS slow ?


#4581 Boing 2

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Posted 13 August 2010 - 15:59

http://digitaleditio...m/trial/feb_25/
Article(from 25.02.2010) about Michael and his team-mates. Some hindsights for this year too.



After a few posters have claimed Herbert's lack of testing was down to poor ability, it's interesting to note that he was being frozen out of testing at the first session of the season.....

I also remember Irvine out qualifying MS at melbourne and not getting access to a single test session for something like a month and a half or 2 months.

#4582 britishtrident

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Posted 13 August 2010 - 19:48

snip

Was Tyson's greatness diminished because Kevin McBride beat him?

snip


No Tyson's greatness disappeared when he bit a chunk of his opponents ear off and that is without considering his 3 years in jail for a serious sexual assault.

Comparing him with Schumacher is wrong, Schumacher's very many on track transgressions added together aren't in the same league, although that doesn't make the Schumacher driving tactics acceptable to any real fan of the sport.



#4583 slaveceru

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Posted 13 August 2010 - 20:42

Time will not tell. No two drivers have the same circumstances throughout their careers. I highly doubt any driver in the future will ever have as many competitive or class of the field cars as M Schumacher has done. The only thing Rosberg can do is make the most of the opportunities he has and do do his job I.e be the one that brings home the bacon for the team and beat his teammate. Wins/wdc etc require variables out of a drivers control I.e competitive car in relation to the competition. Or would you rate Olivier Panis above Chris Amon or Jacques Villeneuve over his father?

You are saying that in the future there will be no more legends are you for real mate?

#4584 sir jackie walker

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Posted 13 August 2010 - 21:20

As Nico has never driven a championship winning F1 car, he does not know how it´feels.

You do realize the goalposts, uh, kind of keep moving? A car that feels like B194 is 16 years old. No doubt experience helps... but a 'feel of championship car'? Seriously?



#4585 eoin

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Posted 13 August 2010 - 22:30

You do realize the goalposts, uh, kind of keep moving? A car that feels like B194 is 16 years old. No doubt experience helps... but a 'feel of championship car'? Seriously?


If a car isn't doing what you want it to do then it's more than likely not good enough to fight for the title-that's all it means.

#4586 Mandzipop

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Posted 13 August 2010 - 23:14

Kinda off topic but on topic. The Schumacher diaries are so funny. I have cried with laughter. The new one is brilliant.

Edited by Mandzipop, 13 August 2010 - 23:15.


#4587 aditya-now

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Posted 14 August 2010 - 00:19

Liked the article in the in Autosport today. Although being beaten in quali and races, his ultimate pace through ou the weekend is under 3 tenths. Only Mark Webber, as Nico's teamate have done better.


Which means that Rosberg must be really good and also Mark Webber is better than Schumacher...

#4588 merschu

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Posted 14 August 2010 - 06:19

Schumi's Sekret Tageblog: Hungary
Michael Schumacher's been revealing his inner most thoughts about that tiny little incident at the Hungaroring.

Hello, my little Kinder surprises. Oh boy, I bet you can guess that I am in big trouble after what has happened at the Hungarian Grand Prix. As my engineers are always saying, I have a shed's worth of trouble.


And the funniest thing is some people out there really think that Michael Schumacher himself is actually writing all of this! :rotfl:

http://www.planet-f1...Sekret-Tageblog

#4589 man

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Posted 14 August 2010 - 06:22

You are saying that in the future there will be no more legends are you for real mate?


Have no idea what your point is ;-)

You asked me if Rosberg is better than M Schumacher during his heyday... I said there are variables that make it difficult to compare...what your comment has to do with "legends" I know not.

#4590 Lifew12

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Posted 14 August 2010 - 08:49

Allright then, now we're getting somewhere. So let us have a small recap :
1. You say, Schumacher's lack of pace this year is partly down to the fact that he doesnt have an all corseting team around him.
2. You also say, that him being out of the sport is not an issue anymore.



I'm not quite sure what your sudden revelation is as i've said this all along.

So may I ask you, what you think are these other contributing factors that have made MS slow ?


We've been around this before - I haven't a clue. Have you?

#4591 Paco

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Posted 14 August 2010 - 09:31

Expirience
You can´t ask a blind person how a Picasso looks like.
As Nico has never driven a championship winning F1 car, he does not know how it´feels.
You never know what you don´t know, so it helps if you have someone with a wider view,
to make comparsions in a better context.
Nico, can say - that car feels better then the Williams did, fair comment, but he still does not know
how far that car was off a McLaren, Ferrari or Brawn.

Your last comment is correct - however



Nicely said. That's were paying for experience really pays off. Immediately knowing theire is a fundamentally wrong aspect to a car that can't be simply overcome by setup etc. Nico unfortunately haven driven his midpack his whole career like that, simply can't tell what it means to have a car driving on rails like the Ferrari's off old, some of Renaults and Mclarens and now the RedBull. He simply has never had a car that is sooooo solid and fast that he thinks a dog of car is awesome when compared to a slower dog.

So.. in which direction should Merc follow??? Michaels lead or Nico's .... i think Merc are getting best of both world right now and the pay of each driver is reflecting that.

Nico is bringing home some points to help move the team up the standing and bring a bigger pay day from Bernie at the end of the year.
Michael is bringing a champions experience to help address and hopefully correct some of the ills of the W01/MGP001 and hopefully bring out a better 2nd car next season.

Which is more valuable to the team.. OBVIOUSLY.. setting up a platform that is soild for years to come like 2011, 2012, 2013 vs. simply how they finish this season and that is where Michael comes in!!

I still don't get why people are so near sighted and fixated simply on a drivers pay... it's like saying.. is any president of a publically traded company worth the millions they get paid!... NO.. but it's simply a matter of what the board feels is justified. Should someone on wall street deserve to get paid 1million a week for simply making a few phone calls.. of course not. But they can and do.. Get over salaries and disparity between then and see what each bring to the TEAM. That's where a person's true worth come to light.



#4592 Lifew12

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Posted 14 August 2010 - 09:39

... it's simply a matter of what the board feels is justified....


Which is precisely my point; how long can the board justify paying vast amounts to a man who clearly isn't performing as expected? What if next years car is a dog, too? Will you be saying 'they hired him for 2012'? Michael isn't there to design the car - he's there to drive it, and to drive it to the best of his ability.

#4593 ivand911

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Posted 14 August 2010 - 10:20

Which is precisely my point; how long can the board justify paying vast amounts to a man who clearly isn't performing as expected? What if next years car is a dog, too? Will you be saying 'they hired him for 2012'? Michael isn't there to design the car - he's there to drive it, and to drive it to the best of his ability.

If you remember there is/was economic crisis, a lot of companies(banks) have loses ,but still theirs board members and directors get big bonuses. Then for your question, answer is they can pay as long as they wish, nobody can do anything about it. I don't think this is the Mercedes board top problem(to decide what to do with Michael?). Or if it is in their problem list at all? I think not. They can pay him for years, which will be truth in the end. When he became their adviser. They will pay him then for doing nothing, like Ferrari did. You are counting his money? Tough work. :)

Edited by ivand911, 14 August 2010 - 10:26.


#4594 Lifew12

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Posted 14 August 2010 - 10:26

If you remember there is/was economic crisis, a lot of companies(banks) have loses ,but still theirs board members and directors get big bonuses. Then for your question, answer is they can pay as long as they wish. I don't think this is the Mercedes board top problem(to decide what to do with Michael?). Or if it is in their problem list at all? I think not.


I don't think, Ivan, that continuing to pay bonuses in a time of economic crisis has any bearing on, or bears any relation to, what we're talking about here. No matter how much we wish for it, Mercedes is not going to continue employing anyone indefinitely if they don't perform to expectations. I can see where those who say Michael is 'bringing something more' to the team are coming from, yet unless those that weild the power see the results of that 'something more' they will question whether its worth paying for. Anyone would. I also find it interesting that much is being made of Michael's 'ability to develop a car' etc yet Rosbergs talents in that area are routinely written off. By all accounts, mercedes are very happy with what Rosberg brings to the party, and it's worth remembering that Williams' top brass considered him a very worthwhile asset, too. he's also quite cheap.

#4595 ivand911

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Posted 14 August 2010 - 11:06

Good Sekret TageBlog, very funny, don't care who write it. Michael is going to US to give his advice about new track with Wurz? I don't know why they invite him, such "slow" driver? Why they don't invite some new star driver, some fast one? And if they pay him for his advice will be top of the stupidity. These Americans , they are ready to pay only to have sign somewhere that says: "Track was developed/designed with the help of 7 time world champion". What one name can do. And he not only design cars ,now he design tracks too. I didn't know they are friends with Wurz(he wasn't very soft with him about what happened in Hungary).

Edited by ivand911, 14 August 2010 - 11:11.


#4596 SeanValen

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Posted 14 August 2010 - 11:08

I don't think, Ivan, that continuing to pay bonuses in a time of economic crisis has any bearing on, or bears any relation to, what we're talking about here. No matter how much we wish for it, Mercedes is not going to continue employing anyone indefinitely if they don't perform to expectations. I can see where those who say Michael is 'bringing something more' to the team are coming from, yet unless those that weild the power see the results of that 'something more' they will question whether its worth paying for. Anyone would. I also find it interesting that much is being made of Michael's 'ability to develop a car' etc yet Rosbergs talents in that area are routinely written off. By all accounts, mercedes are very happy with what Rosberg brings to the party, and it's worth remembering that Williams' top brass considered him a very worthwhile asset, too. he's also quite cheap.




MS's ambitiion is such I would expect him if it came to it, to actually drive for free or take a pay cut related to performance bonuses, kinda like DC's contracts in Mclaren years, he was very cheap for Ron Dennis! Until MS gets to the standard he expects from himself. He's not in it for the money, did you think the money is more important to him or actually being on the edge and being a winner again. I think MS would take money out of his own pocket and give it to Mercedes if he doesn't get race wins and a title for Mercedes if the car is a winner, the man has too much pride and is more critical about himself then people see, but he keeps alot of things quiet.


I think with MS it's easy for many to misintrepret him, I kind agree with Ralf's recent quote
http://uk.eurosport....ds-brother.html

I think it's completely inappropriate when Michael is depicted as some kind of unfeeling robot,” he told Auto Bild. “This is not Michael. He slept on his manoeuvre and said sorry, out of conviction because he realised his mistake. They should believe him and accept it.

"It certainly has a lot to do with Michael's past. He is the most successful driver in F1 history and people are critical, especially now with his comeback which is not going very well. It was a tough manoeuvre but shows how seriously Michael still takes his job.

"He is now more willing to compromise, which can be seen in his apology. Previously he was criticised for being too straight and cool, now he is more relaxed it is interpreted as a lack of ambition. This is the wrong interpretation."


Edited by SeanValen, 14 August 2010 - 11:13.


#4597 BRG

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Posted 14 August 2010 - 11:21

Expirience
You can´t ask a blind person how a Picasso looks like.
As Nico has never driven a championship winning F1 car, he does not know how it´feels.
You never know what you don´t know, so it helps if you have someone with a wider view,
to make comparsions in a better context.
Nico, can say - that car feels better then the Williams did, fair comment, but he still does not know
how far that car was off a McLaren, Ferrari or Brawn.

Your last comment is correct - however

Sorry, but this utter tosh. Schumacher hasn't a clue about the difference between the current cars either. How can he have? He hasn't driven any other 2010 car so he cannot compare it to a McLaren. At least Nico has the last few seasons of experience to call on. Schumacher doesn't.

#4598 valachus

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Posted 14 August 2010 - 11:48

Sorry, but this utter tosh. Schumacher hasn't a clue about the difference between the current cars either. How can he have? He hasn't driven any other 2010 car so he cannot compare it to a McLaren. At least Nico has the last few seasons of experience to call on. Schumacher doesn't.


Nico's loads of experience led to his over-optimistic calls of "win material" about W01. Now either his experience is worthless or the owner of said experience is unable of making a realistic assessment, which is it?

#4599 BRG

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Posted 14 August 2010 - 12:07

Nico's loads of experience led to his over-optimistic calls of "win material" about W01. Now either his experience is worthless or the owner of said experience is unable of making a realistic assessment, which is it?

Alert! Alert! Race driver in over-optimistic early season comments! Call the Thought Police! Alert!

Many drivers talk up their chances, the chances of their teams and so on. I believe that even Michael Schumacher might have done it once or twice. Most drivers spew the rubbish that thier PR people tell them to say. That's why we get so many anodyne and sometimes plain daft comments from drivers, it keeps internet forums going all over the world.

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#4600 Number62

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Posted 14 August 2010 - 12:34

Nico's loads of experience led to his over-optimistic calls of "win material" about W01.


Michael said that as well.