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#4601 Mandzipop

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Posted 13 August 2010 - 23:14

Kinda off topic but on topic. The Schumacher diaries are so funny. I have cried with laughter. The new one is brilliant.

Edited by Mandzipop, 13 August 2010 - 23:15.


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#4602 aditya-now

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Posted 14 August 2010 - 00:19

Liked the article in the in Autosport today. Although being beaten in quali and races, his ultimate pace through ou the weekend is under 3 tenths. Only Mark Webber, as Nico's teamate have done better.


Which means that Rosberg must be really good and also Mark Webber is better than Schumacher...

#4603 merschu

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Posted 14 August 2010 - 06:19

Schumi's Sekret Tageblog: Hungary
Michael Schumacher's been revealing his inner most thoughts about that tiny little incident at the Hungaroring.

Hello, my little Kinder surprises. Oh boy, I bet you can guess that I am in big trouble after what has happened at the Hungarian Grand Prix. As my engineers are always saying, I have a shed's worth of trouble.


And the funniest thing is some people out there really think that Michael Schumacher himself is actually writing all of this! :rotfl:

http://www.planet-f1...Sekret-Tageblog

#4604 man

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Posted 14 August 2010 - 06:22

You are saying that in the future there will be no more legends are you for real mate?


Have no idea what your point is ;-)

You asked me if Rosberg is better than M Schumacher during his heyday... I said there are variables that make it difficult to compare...what your comment has to do with "legends" I know not.

#4605 Lifew12

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Posted 14 August 2010 - 08:49

Allright then, now we're getting somewhere. So let us have a small recap :
1. You say, Schumacher's lack of pace this year is partly down to the fact that he doesnt have an all corseting team around him.
2. You also say, that him being out of the sport is not an issue anymore.



I'm not quite sure what your sudden revelation is as i've said this all along.

So may I ask you, what you think are these other contributing factors that have made MS slow ?


We've been around this before - I haven't a clue. Have you?

#4606 Paco

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Posted 14 August 2010 - 09:31

Expirience
You can´t ask a blind person how a Picasso looks like.
As Nico has never driven a championship winning F1 car, he does not know how it´feels.
You never know what you don´t know, so it helps if you have someone with a wider view,
to make comparsions in a better context.
Nico, can say - that car feels better then the Williams did, fair comment, but he still does not know
how far that car was off a McLaren, Ferrari or Brawn.

Your last comment is correct - however



Nicely said. That's were paying for experience really pays off. Immediately knowing theire is a fundamentally wrong aspect to a car that can't be simply overcome by setup etc. Nico unfortunately haven driven his midpack his whole career like that, simply can't tell what it means to have a car driving on rails like the Ferrari's off old, some of Renaults and Mclarens and now the RedBull. He simply has never had a car that is sooooo solid and fast that he thinks a dog of car is awesome when compared to a slower dog.

So.. in which direction should Merc follow??? Michaels lead or Nico's .... i think Merc are getting best of both world right now and the pay of each driver is reflecting that.

Nico is bringing home some points to help move the team up the standing and bring a bigger pay day from Bernie at the end of the year.
Michael is bringing a champions experience to help address and hopefully correct some of the ills of the W01/MGP001 and hopefully bring out a better 2nd car next season.

Which is more valuable to the team.. OBVIOUSLY.. setting up a platform that is soild for years to come like 2011, 2012, 2013 vs. simply how they finish this season and that is where Michael comes in!!

I still don't get why people are so near sighted and fixated simply on a drivers pay... it's like saying.. is any president of a publically traded company worth the millions they get paid!... NO.. but it's simply a matter of what the board feels is justified. Should someone on wall street deserve to get paid 1million a week for simply making a few phone calls.. of course not. But they can and do.. Get over salaries and disparity between then and see what each bring to the TEAM. That's where a person's true worth come to light.



#4607 Lifew12

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Posted 14 August 2010 - 09:39

... it's simply a matter of what the board feels is justified....


Which is precisely my point; how long can the board justify paying vast amounts to a man who clearly isn't performing as expected? What if next years car is a dog, too? Will you be saying 'they hired him for 2012'? Michael isn't there to design the car - he's there to drive it, and to drive it to the best of his ability.

#4608 ivand911

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Posted 14 August 2010 - 10:20

Which is precisely my point; how long can the board justify paying vast amounts to a man who clearly isn't performing as expected? What if next years car is a dog, too? Will you be saying 'they hired him for 2012'? Michael isn't there to design the car - he's there to drive it, and to drive it to the best of his ability.

If you remember there is/was economic crisis, a lot of companies(banks) have loses ,but still theirs board members and directors get big bonuses. Then for your question, answer is they can pay as long as they wish, nobody can do anything about it. I don't think this is the Mercedes board top problem(to decide what to do with Michael?). Or if it is in their problem list at all? I think not. They can pay him for years, which will be truth in the end. When he became their adviser. They will pay him then for doing nothing, like Ferrari did. You are counting his money? Tough work. :)

Edited by ivand911, 14 August 2010 - 10:26.


#4609 Lifew12

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Posted 14 August 2010 - 10:26

If you remember there is/was economic crisis, a lot of companies(banks) have loses ,but still theirs board members and directors get big bonuses. Then for your question, answer is they can pay as long as they wish. I don't think this is the Mercedes board top problem(to decide what to do with Michael?). Or if it is in their problem list at all? I think not.


I don't think, Ivan, that continuing to pay bonuses in a time of economic crisis has any bearing on, or bears any relation to, what we're talking about here. No matter how much we wish for it, Mercedes is not going to continue employing anyone indefinitely if they don't perform to expectations. I can see where those who say Michael is 'bringing something more' to the team are coming from, yet unless those that weild the power see the results of that 'something more' they will question whether its worth paying for. Anyone would. I also find it interesting that much is being made of Michael's 'ability to develop a car' etc yet Rosbergs talents in that area are routinely written off. By all accounts, mercedes are very happy with what Rosberg brings to the party, and it's worth remembering that Williams' top brass considered him a very worthwhile asset, too. he's also quite cheap.

#4610 ivand911

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Posted 14 August 2010 - 11:06

Good Sekret TageBlog, very funny, don't care who write it. Michael is going to US to give his advice about new track with Wurz? I don't know why they invite him, such "slow" driver? Why they don't invite some new star driver, some fast one? And if they pay him for his advice will be top of the stupidity. These Americans , they are ready to pay only to have sign somewhere that says: "Track was developed/designed with the help of 7 time world champion". What one name can do. And he not only design cars ,now he design tracks too. I didn't know they are friends with Wurz(he wasn't very soft with him about what happened in Hungary).

Edited by ivand911, 14 August 2010 - 11:11.


#4611 SeanValen

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Posted 14 August 2010 - 11:08

I don't think, Ivan, that continuing to pay bonuses in a time of economic crisis has any bearing on, or bears any relation to, what we're talking about here. No matter how much we wish for it, Mercedes is not going to continue employing anyone indefinitely if they don't perform to expectations. I can see where those who say Michael is 'bringing something more' to the team are coming from, yet unless those that weild the power see the results of that 'something more' they will question whether its worth paying for. Anyone would. I also find it interesting that much is being made of Michael's 'ability to develop a car' etc yet Rosbergs talents in that area are routinely written off. By all accounts, mercedes are very happy with what Rosberg brings to the party, and it's worth remembering that Williams' top brass considered him a very worthwhile asset, too. he's also quite cheap.




MS's ambitiion is such I would expect him if it came to it, to actually drive for free or take a pay cut related to performance bonuses, kinda like DC's contracts in Mclaren years, he was very cheap for Ron Dennis! Until MS gets to the standard he expects from himself. He's not in it for the money, did you think the money is more important to him or actually being on the edge and being a winner again. I think MS would take money out of his own pocket and give it to Mercedes if he doesn't get race wins and a title for Mercedes if the car is a winner, the man has too much pride and is more critical about himself then people see, but he keeps alot of things quiet.


I think with MS it's easy for many to misintrepret him, I kind agree with Ralf's recent quote
http://uk.eurosport....ds-brother.html

I think it's completely inappropriate when Michael is depicted as some kind of unfeeling robot,” he told Auto Bild. “This is not Michael. He slept on his manoeuvre and said sorry, out of conviction because he realised his mistake. They should believe him and accept it.

"It certainly has a lot to do with Michael's past. He is the most successful driver in F1 history and people are critical, especially now with his comeback which is not going very well. It was a tough manoeuvre but shows how seriously Michael still takes his job.

"He is now more willing to compromise, which can be seen in his apology. Previously he was criticised for being too straight and cool, now he is more relaxed it is interpreted as a lack of ambition. This is the wrong interpretation."


Edited by SeanValen, 14 August 2010 - 11:13.


#4612 BRG

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Posted 14 August 2010 - 11:21

Expirience
You can´t ask a blind person how a Picasso looks like.
As Nico has never driven a championship winning F1 car, he does not know how it´feels.
You never know what you don´t know, so it helps if you have someone with a wider view,
to make comparsions in a better context.
Nico, can say - that car feels better then the Williams did, fair comment, but he still does not know
how far that car was off a McLaren, Ferrari or Brawn.

Your last comment is correct - however

Sorry, but this utter tosh. Schumacher hasn't a clue about the difference between the current cars either. How can he have? He hasn't driven any other 2010 car so he cannot compare it to a McLaren. At least Nico has the last few seasons of experience to call on. Schumacher doesn't.

#4613 valachus

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Posted 14 August 2010 - 11:48

Sorry, but this utter tosh. Schumacher hasn't a clue about the difference between the current cars either. How can he have? He hasn't driven any other 2010 car so he cannot compare it to a McLaren. At least Nico has the last few seasons of experience to call on. Schumacher doesn't.


Nico's loads of experience led to his over-optimistic calls of "win material" about W01. Now either his experience is worthless or the owner of said experience is unable of making a realistic assessment, which is it?

#4614 BRG

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Posted 14 August 2010 - 12:07

Nico's loads of experience led to his over-optimistic calls of "win material" about W01. Now either his experience is worthless or the owner of said experience is unable of making a realistic assessment, which is it?

Alert! Alert! Race driver in over-optimistic early season comments! Call the Thought Police! Alert!

Many drivers talk up their chances, the chances of their teams and so on. I believe that even Michael Schumacher might have done it once or twice. Most drivers spew the rubbish that thier PR people tell them to say. That's why we get so many anodyne and sometimes plain daft comments from drivers, it keeps internet forums going all over the world.

#4615 Number62

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Posted 14 August 2010 - 12:34

Nico's loads of experience led to his over-optimistic calls of "win material" about W01.


Michael said that as well.

#4616 man

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Posted 14 August 2010 - 13:32

Alert! Alert! Race driver in over-optimistic early season comments! Call the Thought Police! Alert!

Many drivers talk up their chances, the chances of their teams and so on. I believe that even Michael Schumacher might have done it once or twice. Most drivers spew the rubbish that thier PR people tell them to say. That's why we get so many anodyne and sometimes plain daft comments from drivers, it keeps internet forums going all over the world.


Exactly! Regardless of the characteristics if a car, no driver would have known if their car is wdc material or not until all the cars raced in angercfor the first time. And even then their are development opportunities. It's not as if once a car is defined as a wdc contender development stops. Meaningless pr fed words from Rosberg no more no less.

#4617 slaveceru

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Posted 14 August 2010 - 17:41

Have no idea what your point is ;-)

You asked me if Rosberg is better than M Schumacher during his heyday... I said there are variables that make it difficult to compare...what your comment has to do with "legends" I know not.

How it is difficult to compare Rosberg with the heyday of Schumacher? Schumacher was better than the rest of the field of drivers that were driving dose days so he deserved all his WDC and wins. How is doing Rosberg against the top dogs in now days is he beating them regularly no he is not so you can compare the drivers in each period so Rosberg did not accomplished nothing worth to mentioned in F1 racing except he is better than Schumacher this year.

#4618 man

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Posted 14 August 2010 - 18:00

How it is difficult to compare Rosberg with the heyday of Schumacher? Schumacher was better than the rest of the field of drivers that were driving dose days so he deserved all his WDC and wins. How is doing Rosberg against the top dogs in now days is he beating them regularly no he is not so you can compare the drivers in each period so Rosberg did not accomplished nothing worth to mentioned in F1 racing except he is better than Schumacher this year.


If you want to take it from that perspective ...fair enough.

However, I believe the very top drivers of today i.e. Lewis Hamilton in particular and Alonso are significantly better all-round than the likes of Damon Hill and Jacques Villeneuve were during M Schumacher's 'heyday'. ;-)

Also, try to understand the simple notion of variables here.

M Schumacher may have beaten the opposition many times during his 'heyday', however for arguments sake, one could state that Rosberg has had access to inferior cars.

So to correct your statement it would be better to say " M Schumacher combined with Benetton/Ferrari was better at acheiving their objectives than the combination of Rosberg and Williams/Mercedes at acheiving their objectives."

Its not that difficult, really....;-)

Edited by man, 14 August 2010 - 18:08.


#4619 slaveceru

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Posted 14 August 2010 - 18:10

Not really a valid comparison, is it? I mean, Federer WOULD have 'training' and in terms of fitness we were assured last year that Michael was as fit as ever.

I don't think the comment needs 'explaining'; at the star of the season it was a passable excuse - Michael had been away for three years - but now it's not, as he hasn't. We can't go on excusing him for having been away for ever.

You did not answered my question I asked you how long it will take the driver who is restricted with testing to get back to top form in racing in F1?
If all that he would need is a few races after three years retirement than all the drivers do not need no testing at all for three years they would only race and even then they would not be in the same condition as Schumacher is. All the drivers were testing as Schumacher was and all the drivers are generally getting better each year when they are young enough so the gap is probably staying the same if all had the same ability to adapt new rules and cars but they do not have the same ability. The gap would only become smaller if Schumacher is better in this area which is also affected with aging. You sad it that you cannot compare tennis with F1 racing you are right so I will throw at you another comparison what about chess. Fisher came back from retirement of playing professional chess and he could not achieve the results that he achieved prior retirement the game was the same as it is for more than 400 years and yet he was affected with retirement and you say that Schumacher should be able to regain his form after only a few races in F1 racing which is changing all the time? You know he is only human and no superman in F1 racing. The fact is no one knows how long it will take him to come back if he will ever came back and that is also an enigma for him. This is a competition at highest level and in each sport it is very hard to come back after retirement for a long period and three years of being away from all kind of races it is a long period.


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#4620 aditya-now

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Posted 14 August 2010 - 18:18

Michael is going to US to give his advice about new track with Wurz? I don't know why they invite him, such "slow" driver? Why they don't invite some new star driver, some fast one?


Probably Fernando and Lewis are happy to have a break for once - normally they have one appointment after the other anyway.
It is telling, however, that Schumi finds the time to go and check a new track in the two weeks of holidays that this summer affords to the drivers.

Could be that Michael is happy to still be invited and give his precious opinion. And why with Wurz? Is Michael in the same category? Wurz is an excellent development driver, which Michael is not, as 2010 has proven...


#4621 slaveceru

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Posted 14 August 2010 - 18:31

If you want to take it from that perspective ...fair enough.

However, I believe the very top drivers of today i.e. Lewis Hamilton in particular and Alonso are significantly better all-round than the likes of Damon Hill and Jacques Villeneuve were during M Schumacher's 'heyday'. ;-)

Also, try to understand the simple notion of variables here.

M Schumacher may have beaten the opposition many times during his 'heyday', however for arguments sake, one could state that Rosberg has had access to inferior cars.

So to correct your statement it would be better to say " M Schumacher combined with Benetton/Ferrari was better at acheiving their objectives than the combination of Rosberg and Williams/Mercedes at acheiving their objectives."

Its not that difficult, really....;-)

Once again it is so difficult to say that Schumacher was better driver in heyday than Rosberg was and still is now? Your assumption that Alonso and Hamilton are better than all the drivers that Schumacher beat in his period is nothing new for fans across the history at each sport. Each sport is evolving and F1 racing is no exception to that rule so drivers are generally better from generation to generation so this is also one of the main reasons why professional sportsman in each competition is compared to his own generation.

#4622 man

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Posted 14 August 2010 - 18:45

Once again it is so difficult to say that Schumacher was better driver in heyday than Rosberg was and still is now? Your assumption that Alonso and Hamilton are better than all the drivers that Schumacher beat in his period is nothing new for fans across the history at each sport. Each sport is evolving and F1 racing is no exception to that rule so drivers are generally better from generation to generation so this is also one of the main reasons why professional sportsman in each competition is compared to his own generation.


I'm sorry. Clearly my opinion has significance for you but i'm sorry, I don't think it is necessarily the case that M Schumacher was better than Rosberg is now. ;-)

Yes, it is an assumption that Alonso and Hamilton are better than the likes of Hill and Jacques Villeneuve were.

Yes, I also agree in gerneral terms atheletes and sports people improve from one generation to the next with improved diet, education, knowledge, technology etc.

Yes, I agree it is much more accurate to compare drivers within the same era.

But from here, you really lose logic from my perspective.

As I mentioned in my last post, F1 is not a one make series. the perceived performance of a driver is influenced by the team he is with and the car he drives. Can you acknowledge that? ;-)

Can you also acknowledge ability of the standard of drivers can fluctuate from year to year. For example at the 1994 San Marino GP after Senna's crash, we were missing the likes of Senna and Prost and Alesi compared to the 1993 San Marino GP. Do you accept that the grid of the restarted 1994 San Marino GP was of lesser quality than the 1993 event?

Do you accept that it would be easier for a driver/team combination to win the restarted 1994 San Marino GP than the 1993 San Marino GP?

Edited by man, 14 August 2010 - 18:47.


#4623 ivand911

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Posted 14 August 2010 - 18:53

Probably Fernando and Lewis are happy to have a break for once - normally they have one appointment after the other anyway.
It is telling, however, that Schumi finds the time to go and check a new track in the two weeks of holidays that this summer affords to the drivers.

Could be that Michael is happy to still be invited and give his precious opinion. And why with Wurz? Is Michael in the same category? Wurz is an excellent development driver, which Michael is not, as 2010 has proven...

Or maybe nobody knows Lewis in USA? Or maybe they know him like a boyfriend? Fernando is little bit more known in USA than Lewis? And you think Michael have less appointments than them? :rotfl: Not like, just now they have much appointments, it is vacation. Since when Wurz ,the big developer is not in F1? But no problem, his buddy Michael will take him and his family with his plane and they will go to do little work and to rest in USA.

Edited by ivand911, 14 August 2010 - 19:40.


#4624 slaveceru

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Posted 14 August 2010 - 19:35

As I mentioned in my last post, F1 is not a one make series. the perceived performance of a driver is influenced by the team he is with and the car he drives. Can you acknowledge that? ;-)


:up:

Can you also acknowledge ability of the standard of drivers can fluctuate from year to year. For example at the 1994 San Marino GP after Senna's crash, we were missing the likes of Senna and Prost and Alesi compared to the 1993 San Marino GP. Do you accept that the grid of the restarted 1994 San Marino GP was of lesser quality than the 1993 event?

:up:
One comment the generation is not measured only in one year but it takes at least 10 years and Senna was not in the same generation of drivers as Schumacher was. Also it is hard to say that generally the drivers that drive in F1 from 1994 - 2004 were worst then the driver in F1 competition from 1985 - 1995 and that there were a lack in talent it goes against the logic itself. So there are probably other reasons why Schumacher was so exceptional that all others looked worse that they really were. I know for fact that he was one of the first to introduce personal trainer for fitness then a nutritionist then a person responsible for his mental preparation so basely he did not leave nothing to chances prior to him the driver did not think about dose things in such detail so he has risen the game itself by this.

Do you accept that it would be easier for a driver/team combination to win the restarted 1994 San Marino GP than the 1993 San Marino GP?


Once again you are comparing the drivers each season generally this is not generation by definition.

I really do think that in each competition the generation of professional drivers that compete are becoming better and better because the F1 itself is evolving and the gap between them is becoming smaller and smaller. You have to go back only 15 years and you will see that the drivers which were competing in F1 were not so fit in comparisons to current drivers. The type of training is also evolving all the time. You also forget one major thing in your assumption and that is the process through which the drive has to go to be able to compete in F1 racing which is also evolving all the time not to mention that now days you have a lot more professional drivers in different competitions to choose from to compete in F1 racing. Then F1 racing is becoming more and more popular and this is also the reason that more youngsters wants to become professional driver and it is than more easily to find a few special ones that have more talent in comparison to each generation. Then the selection of drivers trough each step of developing is becoming harder and harder in each generation. Then there is a support that professional driver in F1 has around him which helps him to be completely concentrated to driving (person responsible for diet, person responsible for mental preparation ...) all those things were not available only two decade ago......

Edited by slaveceru, 14 August 2010 - 20:07.


#4625 man

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Posted 14 August 2010 - 19:45

I really do think that in each competition the generation of professional drivers that compete are becoming better and better because the F1 itself is evolving and the gap between them is becoming smaller and smaller. You have to go back only 15 years and you will see that the drivers which were competing in F1 were not so fit in comparisons to current drivers. The type of training is also evolving all the time. You also forget one major thing in your assumption and that is the process through which the drive has to go to be able to compete in F1 racing which is also evolving all the time not to mention that now days you have a lot more professional drivers in different competitions to choose from to compete in F1 racing. Then F1 racing is becoming more and more popular and this is also the reason that more youngsters wants to become professional driver and it is than more easily to find a few special ones that have more talent in comparison to each generation. Then the selection of drivers trough each step of developing is becoming harder and harder in each generation. Then there is a support that professional driver in F1 has around him which helps him to be completely concentrated to driving (person responsible for diet, person responsible for mental preparation ...) all those things were not available only two decade ago......


Erm...ok. ;-)

I believe the natural abilities of M Schumacher as a driver at his peak are not necessarily better than the natural abilities of Rosberg in 2010.

This is going way off on a tangent BTW. ;-)


#4626 Muz Bee

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Posted 14 August 2010 - 19:49

Nico's loads of experience led to his over-optimistic calls of "win material" about W01. Now either his experience is worthless or the owner of said experience is unable of making a realistic assessment, which is it?

Yes well it's all very well to invalidate Nico's F1 intelligence/experience etc because of his pre-season optimism but

(a) he did score 2 podiums in the first segment of the season and was 2nd in WDC after 4 rounds
(b) the great car development driver and 7xWDC in the other garage doesn't appear to have been able to steer the team to greater performance,
or
© get the maximum out of a poor car by driving around it's inherent faults.

I would agree that it would seem a sound principle to have a driver of Michael's experience to drive M-B development in the direction that will yield WDCs but be open to the idea (as I am) that Nico may be the grateful recipient of that should it occur. All the predictions of Michael's narrowing of the gap as the season progresses have seemingly now evaporated and been replaced by M-B 02 will be a Schumacher car and Nico will fade into obscurity. :rolleyes: The most convincing (and I'm far from confident of it) dream for Michael is the Pirelli performances will play into Michael's hands, time will tell, IF Michael gets another crack at it.

#4627 slaveceru

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Posted 14 August 2010 - 20:06

Erm...ok. ;-)

I believe the natural abilities of M Schumacher as a driver at his peak are not necessarily better than the natural abilities of Rosberg in 2010.

This is going way off on a tangent BTW. ;-)


Are you so convinced about that? What is the raw talent as you say? The raw talent itself is not enough to become WDC winner. There is a saying there is 95 % of hard work and only 5 % of raw talent to succeed in each area.

It is not going way off on tangent BTW.

You are assuming that Rosberg is better driver then Schumacher was and I am arguing against it. You should stick only to this year and I would not argue against it, but you are saying that a raw talent of Rosberg is better than Schumacher then it says a lot about you in general and you are bias in all that you say about Schumacher or Rosberg.

Edited by slaveceru, 14 August 2010 - 20:12.


#4628 man

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Posted 14 August 2010 - 20:17

Are you so convinced about that. What is the raw talent as you say. The raw talent itself is not enough to become WDC winner. There is a saying ther is 95 % of hard work and only 5 % of raw talent to succed in each area.

It is not going way off on tangent BTW.

You are assuming that Rosberg is better driver then Schumacher was and I am arguing against it. You should stick only to this year and I would not argue against it, but you are saying that a raw talent of Rosberg is better than Schumacher then it says a lot about you in general and you are bias in all that you say about Schumacher or Rosberg.



1. Raw talent or natural ability which I refer to is what I would consider the very foundation that gives the possibility for hard work. The basic ingridients in other words.

2. I am stating that M Schumacher at his peak is not necessarily any better than Rosberg now.

3. I can see English is not your native language, as good as it is, I believe it is making our dialogue a little tedious as you are misunderstanding on a regular basis. Sorry to end it like this.

#4629 aditya-now

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Posted 14 August 2010 - 20:39

olving and the gap between them is becoming smaller and smaller. You have to go back only 15 years and you will see that the drivers which were competing in F1 were not so fit in comparisons to current drivers. The type of training is also evolving all the time. You also forget one major thing in your assumption and that is the process through which the drive has to go to be able to compete in F1 racing which is also evolving all the time not to mention that now days you have a lot more professional drivers in different competitions to choose from to compete in F1 racing. Then F1 racing is becoming more and more popular and this is also the reason that more youngsters wants to become professional driver and it is than more easily to find a few special ones that have more talent in comparison to each generation. Then the selection of drivers trough each step of developing is becoming harder and harder in each generation. Then there is a support that professional driver in F1 has around him which helps him to be completely concentrated to driving (person responsible for diet, person responsible for mental preparation ...) all those things were not available only two decade ago......


With all your rambling you forget the fact that it was Niki Lauda who brought the personal trainer as well as nutrionist into F1, and that was Willi Dungl. In this way he started the whole development of personal trainers in F1. Willi Dungl´s health farm in Lower Austria was a mainstay of many F1 drivers during the 80s, not least Senna who visited Dungl´s farm often. As a consequence, Senna started to work with Nuno Cobra in Brazil. Josef Leberer and other Austrian trainers emerged from Dungl´s school, and that was what started the whole trend. The two most notorious exponents having thus been Niki Lauda and Ayrton Senna. Michael Schumacher was only later in that development, when of course in the 90s the whole thing became even more professional and teams started to employ their own personal trainers.

As always, for certain people F1 seems to have started only around 1991, but that particular trend started already by the end of the 70s (1976, to be exact, when Lauda had to recover from his Nürburgring accident). Needless to say, the development gets fiercer and fiercer, and if we see what Mark Webber or Jenson Button are doing on bikes or in triathlons nowadays then we see that F1 drivers are now on a fitness level second to none compared to any other field of sports.


#4630 Yorkie

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Posted 14 August 2010 - 22:53

Liked the article in the in Autosport today. Although being beaten in quali and races, his ultimate pace through ou the weekend is under 3 tenths. Only Mark Webber, as Nico's teamate have done better.

Thats similar to the gap between MS and Rubens, its actually quite a big gap




#4631 SparkPlug

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Posted 15 August 2010 - 04:28

I'm not quite sure what your sudden revelation is as i've said this all along.



We've been around this before - I haven't a clue. Have you?

So you have no idea about what is happening with Schumacher at all ? Here's what I think. There are 3 possibilities :
1. He is just old and has lost his driving talent. No shame in this
2. He is taking too much time to adjust to the new regulations, and the new tyres/cars are just too different for him to adjust to. A 3.5 year gap perhaps, is a little too much for a driver, especially in an era where the rules and regulations change every season. Maybe in 2011 he will get a better grip on the situation and perform close to his previous career levels
3. Rosberg is simply faster, and is on his way to greatness as well. The day he gets into a championship winning car he will win the WDC.

It could also be some combination of the above 3 factors that is causing Schumacher to look slow.

IMO there is no chance in hell that Schumacher is being 'exposed' or that the Schumacher of old did not have the talent that he showed us. I have seen him in action throughout his career, and yes even followed his and Mika's career through the lower levels of motorsport. Right from the time he made big news locally with his test at Silverstone to his last race at Brazil. He was quite the prodigy in Germany in his younger days. Its impossible to say that he is (was?) not special. That is just hate or lack of knowledge coming through from some of the posters out here in this thread (not you, yours is more subtle :) )

To say that Schumacher is not one of the greatest ever racing drivers (atleast top 3) of all time is just being stubborn. This is coming from a lifelong Mika Hakkinen fan. Thats what I think

Edited by SparkPlug, 15 August 2010 - 04:30.


#4632 SparkPlug

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Posted 15 August 2010 - 04:40

With all your rambling you forget the fact that it was Niki Lauda who brought the personal trainer as well as nutrionist into F1, and that was Willi Dungl. In this way he started the whole development of personal trainers in F1. Willi Dungl´s health farm in Lower Austria was a mainstay of many F1 drivers during the 80s, not least Senna who visited Dungl´s farm often. As a consequence, Senna started to work with Nuno Cobra in Brazil. Josef Leberer and other Austrian trainers emerged from Dungl´s school, and that was what started the whole trend. The two most notorious exponents having thus been Niki Lauda and Ayrton Senna. Michael Schumacher was only later in that development, when of course in the 90s the whole thing became even more professional and teams started to employ their own personal trainers.

As always, for certain people F1 seems to have started only around 1991, but that particular trend started already by the end of the 70s (1976, to be exact, when Lauda had to recover from his Nürburgring accident). Needless to say, the development gets fiercer and fiercer, and if we see what Mark Webber or Jenson Button are doing on bikes or in triathlons nowadays then we see that F1 drivers are now on a fitness level second to none compared to any other field of sports.

Good post :up:

Mostly agreed, except for the era. Racing drivers in the late 70s and 80s were still (for the most part) highly unfit by today's standards. Remember Keke ? Lauda was an exception and an exceptional driver, but then he never was that fit before his accident as well. I think it was Senna who started the real fitness revolution, and Schumacher took it two steps further. Senna was IMO nowhere as fit as Schumacher in his prime was. I remember seeing him being completely winded on the podium after a couple of races in Brazil (dont rememeber which year sorry, I have the races, if I can pull up the videos I will) and the normally hotter races of the year. Schumacher on the other hand, was amazing in this field. In his entire 16 year career, I dont remember seeing him tired after a race a single time. After 1999, he hardly even broke into a sweat. Remember the podium at Malaysia 99 ? Hakkinen was kneeling on the podium, and Irvine was panting like he was having an attack ! Schumacher on the other hand, was just calmly smiling away and waving. That image epitomizes how fit the guy is, really

EDIT : Jackie Stewart was also one fit bloke wasnt he ? Another exception in his era, I think he was close to reaching the 1960 olympics in some discipline ?

Edited by SparkPlug, 15 August 2010 - 04:44.


#4633 britishtrident

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Posted 15 August 2010 - 08:31

Good post :up:

snip

EDIT : Jackie Stewart was also one fit bloke wasnt he ? Another exception in his era, I think he was close to reaching the 1960 olympics in some discipline ?



Clay shooting -- he is still a top notch shooter.

#4634 Lifew12

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Posted 15 August 2010 - 08:47

So you have no idea about what is happening with Schumacher at all ?


On the contrary; i think he's missing the comfort blanket atmosphere that he enjoyed at Ferrari, as I've continually said. Further, I have never claimed this to be the sole reason for his apparently poor performances, but one that I can conceivably entertain. Quite what else is up with him I have no clue, as I said; your three possibilities miss the one I propose, and all of them are perfectly sensible suggestions. To miss the fact that he no longer has that all encompassing support is, to me, somewhat odd.


To say that Schumacher is not one of the greatest ever racing drivers (atleast top 3) of all time is just being stubborn.


I don't think that it's stubborn at all; I would say it's extremely difficult to decide who the 'top three' racing drivers of all time are as there have been rather a lot. Motor racing is not defined only by F1, and didn't start in 1991 but almost a hundred years earlier. Michael is certainly one of the very best i have ever seen, and clearly the era you have followed encompasses his career (and that of Hakkinen and their contemporaries).

#4635 Lifew12

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Posted 15 August 2010 - 08:55

You did not answered my question I asked you how long it will take the driver who is restricted with testing to get back to top form in racing in F1?


If it's as long as Michael Schumacher is - apparently - taking it's quite a while. The thing is, he was no more 'restricted' in testing than his team mate or any other competitor this season. What are you saying he needs to do to get back to top form? Are you suggesting his overall fitness wasn;t up to it at the beginning of the season (something we were assured that was not the case) or are you suggesting that he has somehow forgotten how to drive a racing car competetively? I don't think the latter is really a valid excuse for a man with a career of such length and success, is it? Are you , in fact, suggesting that in those three years F1 has changed so very much that it has hampered his driving ability? It changed a great deal during his career, too, and didn't seem to hold him back then. Why this emphasis on a 'lack of testing', anyway? You are aware that it is only in recent years that drivers have had the ability to test (even to teh restricted levels we see now) between seasons? many drivers have jumped between different teams, cars, tyres, engines, disciplines, and some have even - lo and behold - come back after a while out and won!

Over half a season has passed now; surely that's enough time for a man with such experience and such a wide knowledgebase and such immense natural talent to get back to top form, as you put it? or maybe you think it takes longer? If so, it begs the question why waste millions on a driver who isn't going to perform for the first year, or longer? Why not stick Nick Heidfeld in the car and carry on where he left off the last season? Oh, of course - t-shirt sales.

#4636 aditya-now

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Posted 15 August 2010 - 09:19

Lauda was an exception and an exceptional driver, but then he never was that fit before his accident as well. I think it was Senna who started the real fitness revolution, and Schumacher took it two steps further. Senna was IMO nowhere as fit as Schumacher in his prime was. I remember seeing him being completely winded on the podium after a couple of races in Brazil (dont rememeber which year sorry, I have the races, if I can pull up the videos I will) and the normally hotter races of the year. Schumacher on the other hand, was amazing in this field.


I have to agree with this - Schumacher was and is amazing in this field. Even in 2010 I have never seen him "out of breath" in any way.

Thinking about the hard training Senna did (I visited the facilities were Senna trained with Nuno Cobra, Berger was also visiting sometimes), it surely must have something to do with basic (genetic) predisposition: Senna never reached the levels of Schumacher in that field, although he really worked hard. So probably Schumacher has also the luck of the genes in this field.

Jackie Stewart - was it not in some field of shooting?

#4637 Paco

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Posted 15 August 2010 - 10:21

Comparing drivers of different era's has proven to be difficult if not impossible. The simple fact is, every era required a different type of driver. Claiming driver X of a certain era was more fit then driver Y of another era is pointless if Fitness didn't play a factor in being able to win a race in the car they were driving.

Considering how truly safe F1 is today, you don't need balls of steel to race Lauda etc. when deaths every season were common. A driver knows now in the post-senna era and especially that last 10 years with tracks being dumbed down with chicanes, tarred run offs etc. and safety standards of a modern day F1 car that they can tossed their cars around, put themselves in a difficult situations and now that they'll probably walk away with not even a scratch. It's a different type of driver need to pilot of F1 car today then say the 60's..

Even then, the disparity between teams has gotten ridiculously small on the grid. That 1/10th.. 1/100th can mean the different between being a hero or loser. It was just a few seasons ago that the top 10 was spread out by seconds.. not 1/10ths of a second. Once again, it's takes a different type of driver today then maybe even 10 years ago to pull out that 1/10...

It may be easier to win a race now then before as the difference between TEAMS is so much less that on any given Sunday... 4-6 drivers have a chance at winning (barring rain, safety cars etc.) where as a decaded ago.. perhaps only 2-4 drivers stood a realistic chance of winning.

Making a statement that saying todays grid is of higher caliber (Fernando, Hamilton, Webber, Vettel, Shumi etc.) is better then in passed (Damon, Jacques, Shumi, Mika, Coulthard etc.) is nonsense.

Nico did a good job at Williams and landed himself a manufacturer works team.. Good on him.
Michael the best driver of the modern era was approached to driver for a manufacturer works team.. Good on him.

Looking back on the most recent era outside of the current, i'd go as far as to say it was significantly more staked with talent then the 2010 grid.

Damon/Jacques/Schumi/Mika easily match Hamilton/Fernando/Vettel/Shumi..

Grid in 1996 vs 2010 - If you ask me, the grid of 1996 was way more staked with talent from the Top to very Bottom! Ever driver on the grid was a 1st rate driver. Looking this years, at least 1/2 the grid I wouldn't put in the same league as the as Diniz/Jos the Boss..and they were probably what you could consider back markets of 1996..

4 Would be Champs on the grid in 1996
4 Champs on the grid in 2010 - maybe 5 (if you conclude one of the RedBulls will win this year)

Damon Hill ................................Mark Webber
Jacques Villeneuve.....................Lewis Hamilton
Michael Schumacher...................Sebastian Vettel
Jean Alesi..................................Jenson Button
Mika Häkkinen...........................Fernando Alonso
Gerhard Berger.........................Felipe Massa
David Coulthard.........................Nico Rosberg
Rubens Barrichello.....................Robert Kubica
Olivier Panis..............................Michael Schumacher
Eddie Irvine...............................Adrian Sutil
Martin Brundle...........................Rubens Barrichello
Heinz-Harald Frentzen ................Vitaly Petrov
Mika Salo..................................Kamui Kobayashi
Johnny Herbert..........................Vitantonio Liuzzi
Pedro Diniz................................Nico Hülkenberg
Jos Verstappen..........................Sébastien Buemi
................................................Pedro de la Rosa
................................................Jaime Alguersuari
................................................Heikki Kovalainen
................................................Karun Chandhok
................................................Lucas Di Grassi
................................................Jarno Trulli
................................................Bruno Senna
................................................Timo Glock
................................................Sakon Yamamoto

Irregardless of Michaels struggles this year and final standing in the 2010 championship, hes still one of the top 10 drivers on the grid, deserves a top ride like Mercedes. Hopefully, he will come to grip with the W02 and be back at the front fight for race wins and show that 2010 was an adjustment period for the oldie.

Edited by Paco, 15 August 2010 - 10:52.


#4638 man

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Posted 15 August 2010 - 10:49

Comparing drivers of different era's has proven to be difficult if not impossible. The simple fact is, every era required a different type of driver. Claiming driver X of a certain era was more fit then driver Y of another era is pointless if Fitness didn't play a factor in being able to win a race in the car they were driving.

Considering how truly safe F1 is today, you don't need balls of steel to race Lauda etc. when deaths every season were common. A driver knows now in the post-senna era and especially that last 10 years with tracks being dumbed down with chicanes, tarred run offs etc. and safety standards of a modern day F1 car that they can tossed their cars around, put themselves in a difficult situations and now that they'll probably walk away with not even a scratch. It's a different type of driver need to pilot of F1 car today then say the 60's..

Even then, the disparity between teams has gotten ridiculously small on the grid. That 1/10th.. 1/100th can mean the different between being a hero or loser. It was just a few seasons ago that the top 10 was spread out by seconds.. not 1/10ths of a second. Once again, it's takes a different type of driver today then maybe even 10 years ago to pull out that 1/10...

It may be easier to win a race now then before as the difference between TEAMS is so much less that on any given Sunday... 4-6 drivers have a chance at winning (barring rain, safety cars etc.) where as a decaded ago.. perhaps only 2-4 drivers stood a realistic chance of winning.

Making a statement that saying todays grid is of higher caliber (Fernando, Hamilton, Webber, Vettel, Shumi etc.) is better then in passed (Damon, Jacques, Shumi, Mika, Coulthard etc.) is nonsense.

Nico did a good job at Williams and landed himself a manufacturer works team.. Good on him.
Michael the best driver of the modern era was approached to driver for a manufacturer works team.. Good on him.

Looking back on the most recent era outside of the current, i'd go as far as to say it was significantly more staked with talent then the 2010 grid.

Damon/Jacques/Schumi/Mika easily match Hamilton/Fernando/Vettel/Shumi..

Grid in 1996 vs 2010 - If you ask me, the grid of 1996 was way more staked with talent from the Top to very Bottom! Ever driver on the grid was a 1st rate driver. Looking this years, at least 1/2 the grid I wouldn't put in the same league as the as Diniz/Jos the Boss..and they were probably what you could consider back markets of 1996..

4 Would be Champs on the grid in 1996
4 Champs on the grid in 2010 - maybe 5 (if you conclude one of the RedBulls will win this year)

Damon Hill ................................Mark Webber
Jacques Villeneuve.....................Lewis Hamilton
Michael Schumacher...................Sebastian Vettel
Jean Alesi..................................Jenson Button
Mika Häkkinen...........................Fernando Alonso
Gerhard Berger.........................Felipe Massa
David Coulthard.........................Nico Rosberg
Rubens Barrichello.....................Robert Kubica
Olivier Panis..............................Michael Schumacher
Eddie Irvine...............................Adrian Sutil
Martin Brundle...........................Rubens Barrichello
Heinz-Harald Frentzen ................Vitaly Petrov
Mika Salo..................................Kamui Kobayashi
Johnny Herbert..........................Vitantonio Liuzzi
Pedro Diniz................................Nico Hülkenberg
Jos Verstappen..........................Sébastien Buemi
................................................Pedro de la Rosa
................................................Jaime Alguersuari
................................................Heikki Kovalainen
................................................Karun Chandhok
................................................Lucas Di Grassi
................................................Jarno Trulli
................................................Bruno Senna
................................................Timo Glock
................................................Sakon Yamamoto


Interesting...needless to say I think your analysis is a bit too Peter Pan for me ;-)

#4639 slaveceru

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Posted 15 August 2010 - 12:22

With all your rambling you forget the fact that it was Niki Lauda who brought the personal trainer as well as nutrionist into F1, and that was Willi Dungl. In this way he started the whole development of personal trainers in F1. Willi Dungl´s health farm in Lower Austria was a mainstay of many F1 drivers during the 80s, not least Senna who visited Dungl´s farm often. As a consequence, Senna started to work with Nuno Cobra in Brazil. Josef Leberer and other Austrian trainers emerged from Dungl´s school, and that was what started the whole trend. The two most notorious exponents having thus been Niki Lauda and Ayrton Senna. Michael Schumacher was only later in that development, when of course in the 90s the whole thing became even more professional and teams started to employ their own personal trainers.

As always, for certain people F1 seems to have started only around 1991, but that particular trend started already by the end of the 70s (1976, to be exact, when Lauda had to recover from his Nürburgring accident). Needless to say, the development gets fiercer and fiercer, and if we see what Mark Webber or Jenson Button are doing on bikes or in triathlons nowadays then we see that F1 drivers are now on a fitness level second to none compared to any other field of sports.

I am talking about professional individual personal trainer which trains only one person.

Edited by slaveceru, 15 August 2010 - 14:54.


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#4640 slaveceru

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Posted 15 August 2010 - 12:40

If it's as long as Michael Schumacher is - apparently - taking it's quite a while. The thing is, he was no more 'restricted' in testing than his team mate or any other competitor this season. What are you saying he needs to do to get back to top form? Are you suggesting his overall fitness wasn;t up to it at the beginning of the season (something we were assured that was not the case) or are you suggesting that he has somehow forgotten how to drive a racing car competetively? I don't think the latter is really a valid excuse for a man with a career of such length and success, is it? Are you , in fact, suggesting that in those three years F1 has changed so very much that it has hampered his driving ability? It changed a great deal during his career, too, and didn't seem to hold him back then. Why this emphasis on a 'lack of testing', anyway? You are aware that it is only in recent years that drivers have had the ability to test (even to teh restricted levels we see now) between seasons? many drivers have jumped between different teams, cars, tyres, engines, disciplines, and some have even - lo and behold - come back after a while out and won!

Over half a season has passed now; surely that's enough time for a man with such experience and such a wide knowledgebase and such immense natural talent to get back to top form, as you put it? or maybe you think it takes longer? If so, it begs the question why waste millions on a driver who isn't going to perform for the first year, or longer? Why not stick Nick Heidfeld in the car and carry on where he left off the last season? Oh, of course - t-shirt sales.

There is more than fitness level to get back to racing. Consider this all the drivers have the same time in testing and all the drivers have the same ability to adapt to new rules and cars then you have a person like Schumacher who did not compete for a period of three years he has the same ability as others to adapt so how long it will take him to be as good as others if he has the same amount of time to train. The answer is never. Another comparison did you ever heard for Fisher who was one of the best chess master in the world and then he retired. After he came back from retirement he did not accomplished nothing worth to mention. Did the chess game changed did he forgot to play the chess? This game is the same for almost 400 years.

Edited by slaveceru, 15 August 2010 - 15:03.


#4641 slaveceru

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Posted 15 August 2010 - 12:55

Comparing drivers of different era's has proven to be difficult if not impossible. The simple fact is, every era required a different type of driver. Claiming driver X of a certain era was more fit then driver Y of another era is pointless if Fitness didn't play a factor in being able to win a race in the car they were driving.

Considering how truly safe F1 is today, you don't need balls of steel to race Lauda etc. when deaths every season were common. A driver knows now in the post-senna era and especially that last 10 years with tracks being dumbed down with chicanes, tarred run offs etc. and safety standards of a modern day F1 car that they can tossed their cars around, put themselves in a difficult situations and now that they'll probably walk away with not even a scratch. It's a different type of driver need to pilot of F1 car today then say the 60's..

Even then, the disparity between teams has gotten ridiculously small on the grid. That 1/10th.. 1/100th can mean the different between being a hero or loser. It was just a few seasons ago that the top 10 was spread out by seconds.. not 1/10ths of a second. Once again, it's takes a different type of driver today then maybe even 10 years ago to pull out that 1/10...

It may be easier to win a race now then before as the difference between TEAMS is so much less that on any given Sunday... 4-6 drivers have a chance at winning (barring rain, safety cars etc.) where as a decaded ago.. perhaps only 2-4 drivers stood a realistic chance of winning.

Making a statement that saying todays grid is of higher caliber (Fernando, Hamilton, Webber, Vettel, Shumi etc.) is better then in passed (Damon, Jacques, Shumi, Mika, Coulthard etc.) is nonsense.

Nico did a good job at Williams and landed himself a manufacturer works team.. Good on him.
Michael the best driver of the modern era was approached to driver for a manufacturer works team.. Good on him.

Looking back on the most recent era outside of the current, i'd go as far as to say it was significantly more staked with talent then the 2010 grid.

Damon/Jacques/Schumi/Mika easily match Hamilton/Fernando/Vettel/Shumi..

Grid in 1996 vs 2010 - If you ask me, the grid of 1996 was way more staked with talent from the Top to very Bottom! Ever driver on the grid was a 1st rate driver. Looking this years, at least 1/2 the grid I wouldn't put in the same league as the as Diniz/Jos the Boss..and they were probably what you could consider back markets of 1996..

4 Would be Champs on the grid in 1996
4 Champs on the grid in 2010 - maybe 5 (if you conclude one of the RedBulls will win this year)

Damon Hill ................................Mark Webber
Jacques Villeneuve.....................Lewis Hamilton
Michael Schumacher...................Sebastian Vettel
Jean Alesi..................................Jenson Button
Mika Häkkinen...........................Fernando Alonso
Gerhard Berger.........................Felipe Massa
David Coulthard.........................Nico Rosberg
Rubens Barrichello.....................Robert Kubica
Olivier Panis..............................Michael Schumacher
Eddie Irvine...............................Adrian Sutil
Martin Brundle...........................Rubens Barrichello
Heinz-Harald Frentzen ................Vitaly Petrov
Mika Salo..................................Kamui Kobayashi
Johnny Herbert..........................Vitantonio Liuzzi
Pedro Diniz................................Nico Hülkenberg
Jos Verstappen..........................Sébastien Buemi
................................................Pedro de la Rosa
................................................Jaime Alguersuari
................................................Heikki Kovalainen
................................................Karun Chandhok
................................................Lucas Di Grassi
................................................Jarno Trulli
................................................Bruno Senna
................................................Timo Glock
................................................Sakon Yamamoto

Irregardless of Michaels struggles this year and final standing in the 2010 championship, hes still one of the top 10 drivers on the grid, deserves a top ride like Mercedes. Hopefully, he will come to grip with the W02 and be back at the front fight for race wins and show that 2010 was an adjustment period for the oldie.


I am not comparing the drivers at each generation but the F1 sport itself do you think that F1 is not evolving like other sports. Do you think that driver who is not fit could be successful in now days. What about simulators do you think they do not contribute to overall performance of the driver, what about the mental training that each driver has now days? All those things help the drivers to drive better and the difference between each driver on the grid is becoming smaller and smaller.

#4642 aditya-now

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Posted 15 August 2010 - 13:27

I am talkong about professional individual personal trainer which trains only one person.


Like Josef Leberer trained only Ayrton Senna.


#4643 aditya-now

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Posted 15 August 2010 - 13:29

There is more than fitness level to get back to racing. Consider this all the gays have the same time in testing...


How many gays are there in F1 and what does this have to do in a Michael Schumacher thread? Corinna would be appalled!


 ;)




#4644 slaveceru

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Posted 15 August 2010 - 15:00

How many gays are there in F1 and what does this have to do in a Michael Schumacher thread? Corinna would be appalled!


;)

Sorry I meant drivers.

#4645 jimm

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Posted 16 August 2010 - 05:05

Comparing drivers of different era's has proven to be difficult if not impossible. The simple fact is, every era required a different type of driver. Claiming driver X of a certain era was more fit then driver Y of another era is pointless if Fitness didn't play a factor in being able to win a race in the car they were driving.

Considering how truly safe F1 is today, you don't need balls of steel to race Lauda etc. when deaths every season were common. A driver knows now in the post-senna era and especially that last 10 years with tracks being dumbed down with chicanes, tarred run offs etc. and safety standards of a modern day F1 car that they can tossed their cars around, put themselves in a difficult situations and now that they'll probably walk away with not even a scratch. It's a different type of driver need to pilot of F1 car today then say the 60's..

Even then, the disparity between teams has gotten ridiculously small on the grid. That 1/10th.. 1/100th can mean the different between being a hero or loser. It was just a few seasons ago that the top 10 was spread out by seconds.. not 1/10ths of a second. Once again, it's takes a different type of driver today then maybe even 10 years ago to pull out that 1/10...

It may be easier to win a race now then before as the difference between TEAMS is so much less that on any given Sunday... 4-6 drivers have a chance at winning (barring rain, safety cars etc.) where as a decaded ago.. perhaps only 2-4 drivers stood a realistic chance of winning.

Making a statement that saying todays grid is of higher caliber (Fernando, Hamilton, Webber, Vettel, Shumi etc.) is better then in passed (Damon, Jacques, Shumi, Mika, Coulthard etc.) is nonsense.

Nico did a good job at Williams and landed himself a manufacturer works team.. Good on him.
Michael the best driver of the modern era was approached to driver for a manufacturer works team.. Good on him.

Looking back on the most recent era outside of the current, i'd go as far as to say it was significantly more staked with talent then the 2010 grid.

Damon/Jacques/Schumi/Mika easily match Hamilton/Fernando/Vettel/Shumi..

Grid in 1996 vs 2010 - If you ask me, the grid of 1996 was way more staked with talent from the Top to very Bottom! Ever driver on the grid was a 1st rate driver. Looking this years, at least 1/2 the grid I wouldn't put in the same league as the as Diniz/Jos the Boss..and they were probably what you could consider back markets of 1996..

4 Would be Champs on the grid in 1996
4 Champs on the grid in 2010 - maybe 5 (if you conclude one of the RedBulls will win this year)

Damon Hill ................................Mark Webber
Jacques Villeneuve.....................Lewis Hamilton
Michael Schumacher...................Sebastian Vettel
Jean Alesi..................................Jenson Button
Mika Häkkinen...........................Fernando Alonso
Gerhard Berger.........................Felipe Massa
David Coulthard.........................Nico Rosberg
Rubens Barrichello.....................Robert Kubica
Olivier Panis..............................Michael Schumacher
Eddie Irvine...............................Adrian Sutil
Martin Brundle...........................Rubens Barrichello
Heinz-Harald Frentzen ................Vitaly Petrov
Mika Salo..................................Kamui Kobayashi
Johnny Herbert..........................Vitantonio Liuzzi
Pedro Diniz................................Nico Hülkenberg
Jos Verstappen..........................Sébastien Buemi
................................................Pedro de la Rosa
................................................Jaime Alguersuari
................................................Heikki Kovalainen
................................................Karun Chandhok
................................................Lucas Di Grassi
................................................Jarno Trulli
................................................Bruno Senna
................................................Timo Glock
................................................Sakon Yamamoto

Irregardless of Michaels struggles this year and final standing in the 2010 championship, hes still one of the top 10 drivers on the grid, deserves a top ride like Mercedes. Hopefully, he will come to grip with the W02 and be back at the front fight for race wins and show that 2010 was an adjustment period for the oldie.


I disagree with you completly . The current crop is much thicker at the top.

Damon and JV, who I like, were never on the level of MS or Mika...neither was DC who could match Mika from time to time but never consistently.

Berger-journyman like RB
Alesi and Panis could be quick but 1 lucked into his only win and the other one great day at Monte Carlo...I like Panis but not on the level of LH or Alonso.

Who is left? HFF who was comprehensively blown off by JV and known to be weak mentally.


What do we know about the current crop? We know that Alonso not onlly beat MS in a straight fight for the WDC but also took wins off MS in a car that was not close to a championship car compared to MS's champ wining machine in the same years. We know that Massa is comparing about the same to Alonso as he did against MS.

So I think it is safe to say that Alonso is around (don't get your panties in wad here just generally speaking) the level of MS in his last few yrs before retirement.

We also know that LH is at least as quick as Alonso..so there are 2 drivers on that level. Vettel has won a race in a freakn STR....when is the last time a guy from that level of team has won a race? and Webber has pretty much matched him this year (actually ahead). Button I would put on the Hill/JV level and he is slower in outright speed (although has talents that LH does not like calling his own race). Massa is probably at least at the same level as Button considering how he faired against Kimi and nearly took the title...and you have Kubica who is probably as at least as quick as Massa/button probably faster considering how he has run in a car that is clearly not on the same level (has he even missed Q3 this year?).

I think it is much thicker at the top. IMO, you had MS and Mika--pretty good gap---->Hill, JV, DC---->Berger->everyone else.

Now you have LH, Vettel, Alonso..Kubica? Webber?-very small gap-> Massa/Button--->bigger gap Nico-small gap->RB, MS everyone else.






#4646 ivand911

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Posted 16 August 2010 - 07:04

Now you have LH, Vettel, Alonso..Kubica? Webber?-very small gap-> Massa/Button--->bigger gap Nico-small gap->RB, MS everyone else.

Good laugh here. And if you change their cars you change your classification again? Suddenly RBR drivers are top drivers? How funny are this fans classifications. Nico and Michael not very good drivers because they drive crap car, if they drive RBR they will be top drivers. Suddenly Massa and Barichelo are faster than Michael? I would like to see him in this Ferrari and to speak after this. I would like to see your top drivers in MGP car, to see how good they are. Where was Button second half of the last year? Behind Rubens.

I will try to find result of this test:
http://www.yallaf1.c.....8YallaF1.com)
"Meanwhile, next Thursday and Friday, Rosberg will be testing world championship karts with a clutch of fellow F1 drivers.

Also to feature names including Fernando Alonso, Michael Schumacher and Jaime Alguersuari, the test will take place at the Lonato circuit near Brescia in northern Italy."
To see who is faster.

Edited by ivand911, 16 August 2010 - 08:14.


#4647 Lifew12

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Posted 16 August 2010 - 08:42

all the drivers have the same ability to adapt to new rules and cars


So what's his problem, then?

Your comparison with Fischer is, frankly, a bit wide of the mark given the political angles that affected him during a 20 year break!



#4648 slaveceru

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Posted 16 August 2010 - 12:29

So what's his problem, then?



I do not know what you mean with this question.

Retirement, car, tires, new rules, new team, age, no testing, him?

Edited by slaveceru, 16 August 2010 - 12:30.


#4649 ivand911

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Posted 16 August 2010 - 12:34

Schumi: I am not in harmony with my car
http://www.yallaf1.c...ny-with-my-car/

#4650 Lifew12

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Posted 16 August 2010 - 12:37

I do not know what you mean with this question.

Retirement, car, tires, new rules, new team, age, no testing, him?


Sorry, I didn't read your point correctly last time. With all those factors involved, you have to ask what he's doing in f1, surely? OK, so he's over retirement now - or should be in any logocal view - and his car's not great, and next year he'll be aware of the rules, and know the team, although he may still not like the tyres, but his age, him, and the lack of testing are not going to go away, are they? It's a curious situation.