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#4701 man

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Posted 17 August 2010 - 11:01

Hmmm this is an eye opener. I think it's fantastic how this thread has developed...a brilliant example of the esteem that celebrity icons are held by certain demographics.

The thread started of as a series of predictions of how M Schumqcher will diminish the competition into nothingness. It then evolved into a series of excuses for his performances. After which it evolved to a "let's blame Ross Brawn and Mercedes GP" fest. Then the next stage was how M Schumacher is superior to other drivers on the basis that he can sell more tee shirts and hats. Then there was a case presented that the likes of Damon Hill and Jacques Villeneuve were better than the likes of Lewis Hamilton and Fernando Alonso today. ;-) Then the focus turned to a question of semantics and how some PR generated material generate by the drivers during pre season demonstrates the superiority of M Schumacher over Rosberg.

This thread is an anthropologists dream ;-)

How do fanatics react in times of desperation.

Edited by man, 17 August 2010 - 11:02.


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#4702 baddog

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Posted 17 August 2010 - 11:29

Actually, by sheer weight and attitude of postings from about 4 people, the thread has become a stunning example of how powerful negative obsession is and the hold it can exhibit over, presumably in other areas of life, rational people.. People who, not long after declaring a total lack of biased opinion or even great interest, can quote from memory chapter and verse from a minor incident 10 years ago regarding their 'anti-hero'. Yeah we all totally bought your 'Im just not a fanboy but a serious uinbiased observer' routine there ;)

Michael however continues to drive/work, and we all remain to see the final analysis of this season, let alone the 3 year project he is embarked upon.

#4703 ivand911

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Posted 17 August 2010 - 12:01

I think what Michael says here is totally plausible but as an armchair critic would add that it looks like aero is incredibly inefficient. The Mercedes engine is reputably the best of the bunch (and the McLaren seems to exhibit this) but the Mercedes chassis's utilisation of this good power results in trap speeds only better than the B teams. The car also seems to suffer more in the dirty air than others as witnessed by how the drivers struggle to get within 1.0 second of a car which is measurably slower. The drivers seem to know this and drive accordingly, often falling back 2- 2.5 seconds and conserving their (front) tires. It has become more and more apparent that the car has massive flaws in it's fundamentals so Schumie does have SOME excuses, even if Rosberg has extracted some better than can be expected results.

Good ,fair opinion.


#4704 Lifew12

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Posted 17 August 2010 - 12:12

Actually, by sheer weight and attitude of postings from about 4 people, the thread has become a stunning example of how powerful negative obsession is and the hold it can exhibit over, presumably in other areas of life, rational people.. People who, not long after declaring a total lack of biased opinion or even great interest, can quote from memory chapter and verse from a minor incident 10 years ago regarding their 'anti-hero'. Yeah we all totally bought your 'Im just not a fanboy but a serious uinbiased observer' routine there ;)


As it is, I would say you're on the wrong track, and that a great number of posts on this thread depict how being a 'fan' has changed, in F1 certainly, in recent years. I'm not a fan of Michael Schumacher any more than I am a 'hater', and nor am I a fan of any driver in particular, but in daring to question his performances this year, his reasons for continuing in the face of what i see as pointless adversity, and how the driver today can be compared with the driver of a few years ago most people automatically assume that i must be, in some way, shape or form, a 'hater' or someone who sets out to discredit Michael Schumacher. The same attitude is displayed blatantly on other threads; on one I'm slated as a 'Ferrari fan' for daring to suggest that what they were fined for in Germany wasn't really much more than a tribulation, while at the same time am highlighted as a Mclaren fan for, in the past, stating I thought the whole spygate sage a mountain out of a molehill. I could, and do, say the same about other teams, drivers, etc as I would about Michael Schumacher, Ferrari, and so on. Because you don't agree with my viewpoint doesn't mean that I, or anyone else, must have an 'agenda'; I don't accuse you of having one here, and nor would I. I have no 'biased opinion' on Michael Schumacher other than that he's one of the finest racing drivers I have had the pleasure of watching; however, the minute I step beyond that and say I don't believe him to be in the top three of all time I will be told I'm a 'hater', I'm stubborn, and so on, and so on, and eventually will likely be told it's because I'm English.

What this thread proves, more than anything, is that being a fan of f1, of motor racing, is a thing of the past in the eyes of many of the newer fans to the sport; instead, you have to have a firm, fixed agenda, and stick to that no matter what. I'm afraid that's bollocks; Michael Schumacher may have been brilliant on many occasions in the past, but he hasn't been this year, and that I would have said had it been Hakkinen, Villeneuve, Coulthard, Montoya, whoever it was making a less than stunnign comeback.

#4705 slaveceru

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Posted 17 August 2010 - 12:58

What has become real trend is Red Bull have had amazing development gains during the season and the others (and especially Mercedes) are struggling to keep up with that development. The Michael factor of (reputedly) dragging car development along has had a poor result. OK, I accept the car has fundamental problems and is something of a shed aerodynamically.

Are you watching the same races? Red Bul did not have amazing development gains during the season in comparison to Ferrari or Mclaren. There whole package at the beginning was better then the rest. They were quicker then Mclaren without F-duct. They had problems with endurance and they have made some serious mistakes. All others are just watching them and figuring out why are they so quick. If the basic designee is good you do not need to have better development then the rest of the teams in F1 but if your designee has a flaw or is not good enough even amazing development as you call it will not help you to become better.

Edited by slaveceru, 17 August 2010 - 13:05.


#4706 aditya-now

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Posted 17 August 2010 - 13:09

:lol:
That level of paranoia isn't healthy!


Ah, you are new to F1, it seems!

Does Singapore 2008 or Spygate 2007 ring any bell with you?
That level of naivety isn´t healthy!


#4707 Lifew12

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Posted 17 August 2010 - 13:14

Red Bul did not have amazing development gains during the season in comparison to Ferrari or Mclaren.



I think they do; I would say Red Bull's rate of development this year has been quite stunning. They've kept ahead of the others, after all. This belongs somewhere else.


#4708 aditya-now

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Posted 17 August 2010 - 13:17

Hmmm this is an eye opener. I think it's fantastic how this thread has developed...a brilliant example of the esteem that celebrity icons are held by certain demographics.

The thread started of as a series of predictions of how M Schumqcher will diminish the competition into nothingness. It then evolved into a series of excuses for his performances. After which it evolved to a "let's blame Ross Brawn and Mercedes GP" fest. Then the next stage was how M Schumacher is superior to other drivers on the basis that he can sell more tee shirts and hats. Then there was a case presented that the likes of Damon Hill and Jacques Villeneuve were better than the likes of Lewis Hamilton and Fernando Alonso today. ;-) Then the focus turned to a question of semantics and how some PR generated material generate by the drivers during pre season demonstrates the superiority of M Schumacher over Rosberg.

This thread is an anthropologists dream ;-)

How do fanatics react in times of desperation.


A very valid study you are presenting here, man. I am myself surprised again and again at the subthemes this thread throws up - after all, even now in the summer break, when all are resting, there is no rest in the Schumacher thread. And it´s nice how you enumerate the subthemes - it shows how the human psychology is prone to any maneuvre to just avoid an issue....

Not only an anthropoligist's, but also a psychologist's dream.


#4709 ivand911

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Posted 17 August 2010 - 13:18

Ah, you are new to F1, it seems!

Does Singapore 2008 or Spygate 2007 ring any bell with you?
That level of naivety isn´t healthy!

I am sure Nick know, what he need to know. Massive front grip for next year tyres. :rotfl:

Edited by ivand911, 17 August 2010 - 13:21.


#4710 aditya-now

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Posted 17 August 2010 - 13:28

Hmmm this is an eye opener. I think it's fantastic how this thread has developed...a brilliant example of the esteem that celebrity icons are held by certain demographics.

The thread started of as a series of predictions of how M Schumqcher will diminish the competition into nothingness. It then evolved into a series of excuses for his performances. After which it evolved to a "let's blame Ross Brawn and Mercedes GP" fest. Then the next stage was how M Schumacher is superior to other drivers on the basis that he can sell more tee shirts and hats. Then there was a case presented that the likes of Damon Hill and Jacques Villeneuve were better than the likes of Lewis Hamilton and Fernando Alonso today. ;-) Then the focus turned to a question of semantics and how some PR generated material generate by the drivers during pre season demonstrates the superiority of M Schumacher over Rosberg.

This thread is an anthropologists dream ;-)


Let's take it all in good humour, it's the summer break, so little news anyway. :D

#4711 Frans

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Posted 17 August 2010 - 15:41

In Monza 2008 , STR wasn't lower mid field team with 1st and 4th position on the start.



Ohw come on.... what about the Arrows of Damon Hill in Hugary 1997 then?
Just BS, ... STR was the Minardi before, Vettel was able to put it there and even win in it.

Schumacher can't even win in a Mercedes, (former Brawn) which was last season the team/car to beat.

All with all, Schumacher is not even half the shadow he is claimed to have been by his fanboys all these years. Face it. Schumacher always has been a farce and fake.

Better put all your hopes on 2011, and not even that, HOPE REAL hard that Brawn can't pull something out of they're hat so they can cheat themselves to the top for a while. And that's his ONLY change. his ONLY change /// and he knows it!

#4712 Birelman

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Posted 17 August 2010 - 15:56

First I wasn't dismissing Vettel win in STR. I just point that the car wasn't so bad. Yes, other driver Bourdais did show such good results like Vettel. About MGP car, for me Nico is getting maximum from it. We never saw Lewis driving other F1 car than McLaren(from first day he was driving competitive cars). I don't think he could adapt better to MGP car than Nico. About Alonso he know how to drive not so good cars, like Nico ,then maybe he could be around his level. But, nobody could say 100% how Lewis and Alonso will do in MGP car. I would very like to see this. Because it is not working this way: I think they are better drivers than Nico ,then they will beat him with every car. This is not true. It is easy to be in Ferrari and McLaren worlds. About Michael he need to learn not only how to drive this new car, and also how to work in new "no test" conditions. Now they use simulators,CFD and other stuff he don't know much. In this area he will have problems to catch Nico. Not only cars and tyres changed in this 3 years. In Turkey they tell him we expect 2-3mm rain and he was : What!!!!!
And now 100 people will come here to say that even if Lewis go now in MGP he will destroy Nico. :rotfl:

Oh, that's what this is all about...

Well, that's easy, Alonso and Hamilton are two of the best, if not the bes 2 drivers today. So, they would be doing a little bit better than Nico, more probably than not. How much better? I don't know, not a whole lot though, maybe more consistent, maybe more constant rate of developement, who knows? But considering they are the best in the business today, there is no reason to believe they wouldn't be doing fractionally better than Nico, at the very least.

#4713 Johnrambo

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Posted 17 August 2010 - 16:17

Schumacher driving for Mercedes next year is the best Christmas present Mercedes can give for other teams. :wave:

#4714 ivand911

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Posted 17 August 2010 - 16:28

Schumacher driving for Mercedes next year is the best Christmas present Mercedes can give for other teams. :wave:

To his fans too. :wave: Thanks Mercedes.

Edited by ivand911, 17 August 2010 - 16:29.


#4715 Frans

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Posted 17 August 2010 - 17:45

:lol: :lol: Good one! :up:

#4716 Kovalonso

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Posted 17 August 2010 - 19:59

:eek: I can't believe :eek:

That's the first time a read about a convergence of opinions...

both Schumacher's supporters and bashers want him to stay in F1.

OMG... it was written in Apocalipse... the day forumers agree 100% in the Autosport board... another seal will be broken and THE END will be closer.

By-by cruel world :wave:


#4717 Muz Bee

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Posted 17 August 2010 - 20:48

Lifew12 :up: with your illustration about the ridiculous accusations of "hater". It reminds me of George W's "if you aren't for us you're against us" comment post 9/11, the way it seeks to polarise an argument rather than discuss and analyse.

Those who choose the Bush line of "belief" will forever miss the nuances and with that, the richness of something as complex as F1.
How anyone can say that Michael's results this year aren't disappointing (or worse) just illustrates that fanship tends to be like blind faith.
As I said in a recent post, a new season with new tire supplier may shuffle the pack and give MS a lift up the grid but it's hard to see this not also benefiting his teammate. I know this is a Schumacher thread so at the risk of straying OT, we don't yet know how close to the front line of Hamilton and Alonso, Rosberg is. His stocks have definitely risen this year because nobody (including me) expected him to dominate his teammate like this. He drives a car which is NOT capable of competing for wins and everyone, most of all Mercedes principles, knows this for certain. We can now have reasonable certainty that he is somewhere close to the top 2 drivers, how close we will need a new season, maybe next year's Mercedes F1 will reveal. Michael on the other hand will do well to get another win.

#4718 baddog

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Posted 17 August 2010 - 22:07

As it is, I would say you're on the wrong track, and that a great number of posts on this thread depict how being a 'fan' has changed, in F1 certainly, in recent years. I'm not a fan of Michael Schumacher any more than I am a 'hater', and nor am I a fan of any driver in particular, but in daring to question his performances this year, his reasons for continuing in the face of what i see as pointless adversity, and how the driver today can be compared with the driver of a few years ago most people automatically assume that i must be, in some way, shape or form, a 'hater' or someone who sets out to discredit Michael Schumacher. The same attitude is displayed blatantly on other threads; on one I'm slated as a 'Ferrari fan' for daring to suggest that what they were fined for in Germany wasn't really much more than a tribulation, while at the same time am highlighted as a Mclaren fan for, in the past, stating I thought the whole spygate sage a mountain out of a molehill. I could, and do, say the same about other teams, drivers, etc as I would about Michael Schumacher, Ferrari, and so on. Because you don't agree with my viewpoint doesn't mean that I, or anyone else, must have an 'agenda'; I don't accuse you of having one here, and nor would I. I have no 'biased opinion' on Michael Schumacher other than that he's one of the finest racing drivers I have had the pleasure of watching; however, the minute I step beyond that and say I don't believe him to be in the top three of all time I will be told I'm a 'hater', I'm stubborn, and so on, and so on, and eventually will likely be told it's because I'm English.

What this thread proves, more than anything, is that being a fan of f1, of motor racing, is a thing of the past in the eyes of many of the newer fans to the sport; instead, you have to have a firm, fixed agenda, and stick to that no matter what. I'm afraid that's bollocks; Michael Schumacher may have been brilliant on many occasions in the past, but he hasn't been this year, and that I would have said had it been Hakkinen, Villeneuve, Coulthard, Montoya, whoever it was making a less than stunnign comeback.

I dont have a lot of criticism for your comments in this thread (though I have had plenty for you in the past on other topics of course!). Not regarding Michael as in your personal 'top three' is not even controversial to me, let alone evidence of a hater! I do have him in my top 10, but I dont have that top 10 in a rank at all as I consider that impossible. Too many magnifcent drivers for too many years to have the cheek to try.

There are in fact many kneejerk responses etc as you describe, but I was highlighting that there are two sides to that fence.. for every person making silly excuses for his (by his standards) poor performance this year there are two just dogpiling in with what really DOES amount to 'omfg he sucks and always did, like I always knew'. And yet those same people then post something like you posted above as if claiming to be 'just a non fanboy' makes it so. You at least are intellectually consistent.

#4719 SeanValen

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Posted 17 August 2010 - 23:12

I know this is a Schumacher thread so at the risk of straying OT, we don't yet know how close to the front line of Hamilton and Alonso, Rosberg is. His stocks have definitely risen this year because nobody (including me) expected him to dominate his teammate like this. He drives a car which is NOT capable of competing for wins and everyone, most of all Mercedes principles, knows this for certain.



It's easy though to overate Rosberg until we truely understand Michael's struggles this year, if were comparing Michael, we wanna know is this Michael being caged up like a lion and is just not working his legendary overstreer pointy car play with the rear end set up to corner, because of this years Jenson Button/front tyres rules car which is completely another world for how MS likes to drive the car, and is MS making more comprimises to drive this year without letting it rip because that's the way he must drive the car this year. If that's the case of cource he's making Rosberg look better, so it's very easy to jump the gun, speaking for me personally, I'm not gonna rate Rosberg until MS had done more years, different cars, at the end of the day, this year, neither have won races or titles, which is what counts. MS has made it cearly a while ago, for him, it's about 2011, Rosberg may be just be having a season without MS extracting his consistent potential for what is a unique season for MS, the key to understanding how good rosberg is, is waiting for Michael to get up to his old standard, the only thing MS has done other then struggle is be MS, but just because he's MS-7times champion struggling, don't mean Rosberg is any greater then before this year, until MS is not struggeling, we'll know a little bit more about rosberg. Long term thinking.


Edited by SeanValen, 17 August 2010 - 23:21.


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#4720 Yorkie

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Posted 17 August 2010 - 23:50

It's easy though to overate Rosberg until we truely understand Michael's struggles this year, if were comparing Michael, we wanna know is this Michael being caged up like a lion and is just not working his legendary overstreer pointy car play with the rear end set up to corner, because of this years Jenson Button/front tyres rules car which is completely another world for how MS likes to drive the car, and is MS making more comprimises to drive this year without letting it rip because that's the way he must drive the car this year. If that's the case of cource he's making Rosberg look better, so it's very easy to jump the gun, speaking for me personally, I'm not gonna rate Rosberg until MS had done more years, different cars, at the end of the day, this year, neither have won races or titles, which is what counts. MS has made it cearly a while ago, for him, it's about 2011, Rosberg may be just be having a season without MS extracting his consistent potential for what is a unique season for MS, the key to understanding how good rosberg is, is waiting for Michael to get up to his old standard, the only thing MS has done other then struggle is be MS, but just because he's MS-7times champion struggling, don't mean Rosberg is any greater then before this year, until MS is not struggeling, we'll know a little bit more about rosberg. Long term thinking.

I've no doubt that in his prime MS was an exceptional driver but i could never understand why he was so paranoid about having advantages over his teammates and never tested himself against a real topline teammate, until now perhaps.

The cars/tyres basically change every year but the best drivers adapt and dont miss a beat, i don't buy this MS is not being able to drive at his normal standard. MS is no longer the standard in F1, Lewis and Alonso are, and i think he also would struggle against the likes of Vettel and Kubica.

#4721 hotstickyslick

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Posted 18 August 2010 - 00:49

Ohw come on.... what about the Arrows of Damon Hill in Hugary 1997 then?
Just BS, ... STR was the Minardi before, Vettel was able to put it there and even win in it.

Schumacher can't even win in a Mercedes, (former Brawn) which was last season the team/car to beat.

All with all, Schumacher is not even half the shadow he is claimed to have been by his fanboys all these years. Face it. Schumacher always has been a farce and fake.

Better put all your hopes on 2011, and not even that, HOPE REAL hard that Brawn can't pull something out of they're hat so they can cheat themselves to the top for a while. And that's his ONLY change. his ONLY change /// and he knows it!

How is that BS? Like was said the car qualified first and fourth - the car being of an ADRIAN NEWEY design with a FERRARI engine. Not exactly a Minardi anymore was it?

Neither can Rosberg. The Mercedes is a different car from the Brawn.



#4722 arknor

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Posted 18 August 2010 - 02:37

at this rate the thread will soon be debating on wether schumachers sperm cheated inside his mothers womb to reach the egg first and wether he rammed another sperm into the wall :rotfl:

Edited by arknor, 18 August 2010 - 02:38.


#4723 jimm

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Posted 18 August 2010 - 03:01

It's easy though to overate Rosberg until we truely understand Michael's struggles this year, if were comparing Michael, we wanna know is this Michael being caged up like a lion and is just not working his legendary overstreer pointy car play with the rear end set up to corner, because of this years Jenson Button/front tyres rules car which is completely another world for how MS likes to drive the car, and is MS making more comprimises to drive this year without letting it rip because that's the way he must drive the car this year. If that's the case of cource he's making Rosberg look better, so it's very easy to jump the gun, speaking for me personally, I'm not gonna rate Rosberg until MS had done more years, different cars, at the end of the day, this year, neither have won races or titles, which is what counts. MS has made it cearly a while ago, for him, it's about 2011, Rosberg may be just be having a season without MS extracting his consistent potential for what is a unique season for MS, the key to understanding how good rosberg is, is waiting for Michael to get up to his old standard, the only thing MS has done other then struggle is be MS, but just because he's MS-7times champion struggling, don't mean Rosberg is any greater then before this year, until MS is not struggeling, we'll know a little bit more about rosberg. Long term thinking.



What if MS continued to "struggle" against Rosberg. Your whole thesis is dependant on your original bias that MS should be much faster than Rosberg. Will not argue with you either way about before he left. At 41 and after a 3 yr lay off, new rules and being out of touch with development, he is not and with the current formula is not likely to be. 10+ races is enough time to adapt regardless of testing espeically considering he came into the sport with no testing and did well. He also drove the Ferrari in 1996 well and it was known to understeer.

MS fans just need to accept that the current MS just may be a different driver than the one that drove in the 90s and early '00s. Really, he was showing signs of losing his edge in 2006. Add a lay off to that, and it is really not that suprising he has stuggled this year. Put it this way, if he had stayed in the sport and had to take on Alonso, Lewis, and Vettel all near thier prime and all in competitive cars, it would be a tall order at 41...for any driver.

#4724 Muz Bee

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Posted 18 August 2010 - 04:56

What if MS continued to "struggle" against Rosberg. Your whole thesis is dependant on your original bias that MS should be much faster than Rosberg. Will not argue with you either way about before he left. At 41 and after a 3 yr lay off, new rules and being out of touch with development, he is not and with the current formula is not likely to be. 10+ races is enough time to adapt regardless of testing espeically considering he came into the sport with no testing and did well. He also drove the Ferrari in 1996 well and it was known to understeer.

MS fans just need to accept that the current MS just may be a different driver than the one that drove in the 90s and early '00s. Really, he was showing signs of losing his edge in 2006. Add a lay off to that, and it is really not that suprising he has stuggled this year. Put it this way, if he had stayed in the sport and had to take on Alonso, Lewis, and Vettel all near thier prime and all in competitive cars, it would be a tall order at 41...for any driver.

:up: i don't always agree with you but this is it to a T. MS was outraced by Fernando to 2xWDC before he retired, close but not quite the formidable champion any more. Add a 3 year layoff and the injection of some young talent and others developing and you have the drivers you mention plus of course his young teammate (who may be still approaching his potential), plus Kubica.

None of his incredibly faithful fans can provide a satisfactory theory for why the old lion can savage his young teammate in a new 2011 car, other than having him caged like an Irvine or a Barrichello who only occasionally needed to yield back then. Even leading the development of MGP in a particular direction will not ensure Rosberg isn't quicker as they have a similar driving style. Of all the teammate comparisons so far this year the Rosberg v Schumacher one is the most one-sided.

#4725 slaveceru

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Posted 18 August 2010 - 05:38

I think they do; I would say Red Bull's rate of development this year has been quite stunning. They've kept ahead of the others, after all. This belongs somewhere else.

It is the question of egg and chicken. It goes either way. They have introduced fewer new things in to the car throughout the season in comparison to Ferrari or Mclaren but all the parts that they have putted into the car worked very well. All other teams are copying the solutions from RB which were there on the car at the beginning so all others are playing the catch. We all know that Newey is the master in aerodynamic designee of the car so I think that there basic designee was and still is so much better than the rest that so it is hard to say that there development pace is superior in comparison to Ferrari or Mclaren.

Edited by slaveceru, 18 August 2010 - 05:43.


#4726 aditya-now

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Posted 18 August 2010 - 08:03

http://www.auto-moto...li-2277386.html

Norbert Haug: "....there is no available driver with more experience and knowledge than Nick, to steer the tyre development into the right direction".

Bodes well for Schumi's 2011... ;)


#4727 MikeTekRacing

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Posted 18 August 2010 - 08:07

taken out of context, obviously

#4728 Lifew12

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Posted 18 August 2010 - 08:14

but all the parts that they have putted into the car worked very well.


That's what excellent development is. It's not about how many new parts you put on (although contrary to what you think Red Bull have in no way 'put fewer things' on the car) it's about making sure they make the car go faster. Has McLaren's blown floor worked? Is Ferrari's flexi front wing on a par? And so on; the answer is no. Despite having the might of Ferrari and Mclaren behind it, Red Bull has continued to head the development race at a pace. Last year Brawn started with car that had - arguably - a bigger advantage than the Red Bull this year; by now it didn't. Red Bull's development rate has, quite frankly, been astonishing.


#4729 Fortymark

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Posted 18 August 2010 - 08:27

It's easy though to overate Rosberg until we truely understand Michael's struggles this year, if were comparing Michael, we wanna know is this Michael being caged up like a lion and is just not working his legendary overstreer pointy car play with the rear end set up to corner, because of this years Jenson Button/front tyres rules car which is completely another world for how MS likes to drive the car, and is MS making more comprimises to drive this year without letting it rip because that's the way he must drive the car this year. If that's the case of cource he's making Rosberg look better, so it's very easy to jump the gun, speaking for me personally, I'm not gonna rate Rosberg until MS had done more years, different cars, at the end of the day, this year, neither have won races or titles, which is what counts. MS has made it cearly a while ago, for him, it's about 2011, Rosberg may be just be having a season without MS extracting his consistent potential for what is a unique season for MS, the key to understanding how good rosberg is, is waiting for Michael to get up to his old standard, the only thing MS has done other then struggle is be MS, but just because he's MS-7times champion struggling, don't mean Rosberg is any greater then before this year, until MS is not struggeling, we'll know a little bit more about rosberg. Long term thinking.


Jenson Button has said that he prefers an oversteery car over a understeery due to his smooth driver style
which provokes/makes understeer. Jenson drives in a smooth radius while some drivers makes a more "V-shaped"
turn.


#4730 Lifew12

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Posted 18 August 2010 - 08:36

speaking for me personally, I'm not gonna rate Rosberg until MS had done more years, different cars,


Surely Michael's fifteen years in a variety of different cars at least gives you some idea of his ability? I would say that Rosberg has looked pretty good this year - as quick as he can be in the car, generally error free and going about his job without any fuss.

#4731 ivand911

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Posted 18 August 2010 - 08:38

http://www.auto-moto...li-2277386.html

Norbert Haug: "....there is no available driver with more experience and knowledge than Nick, to steer the tyre development into the right direction".

Bodes well for Schumi's 2011...;)

What is the point for Nick to help Michael? It is opposite for me if he want second MGP seat. I also don't think Nick is fan of Michael. As much as I like what you mean here, it will not happen.


#4732 aditya-now

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Posted 18 August 2010 - 12:43

taken out of context, obviously


You cannot read German? Just run it through a translation software....

http://www.auto-moto...li-2277386.html


:p




#4733 JackTorrance

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Posted 18 August 2010 - 16:44

He also drove the Ferrari in 1996 well and it was known to understeer.

MS fans just need to accept that the current MS just may be a different driver than the one that drove in the 90s and early '00s. Really, he was showing signs of losing his edge in 2006. Add a lay off to that, and it is really not that suprising he has stuggled this year. Put it this way, if he had stayed in the sport and had to take on Alonso, Lewis, and Vettel all near thier prime and all in competitive cars, it would be a tall order at 41...for any driver.



Signs of him losing his edge? I thought his last race of 2006 was testament on how great a driver he still was. It was one of the greatest drives of the season.
And he was out for 3 years with lots of testing restrictions (lets say it is banned completely) id say he does a more than reasonable job being a few tenths off Rosbergs times. Just look how Fisichella and Badoer fared last year. He also showed he can still battle as good as anyone, as we saw in Melbourne with Alguersuari.

Anyway, as far as im concerned he can drive in last place in each and every race he wants to compete. He had so many great races, he has such a long list of championships that nothing will ever make him look lesser. Its just great to see the legend back in F1. Without him in those 3 years, F1 just wasnt the same.

#4734 ivand911

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Posted 18 August 2010 - 19:38

Signs of him losing his edge? I thought his last race of 2006 was testament on how great a driver he still was. It was one of the greatest drives of the season.
And he was out for 3 years with lots of testing restrictions (lets say it is banned completely) id say he does a more than reasonable job being a few tenths off Rosbergs times. Just look how Fisichella and Badoer fared last year. He also showed he can still battle as good as anyone, as we saw in Melbourne with Alguersuari.

Anyway, as far as im concerned he can drive in last place in each and every race he wants to compete. He had so many great races, he has such a long list of championships that nothing will ever make him look lesser. Its just great to see the legend back in F1. Without him in those 3 years, F1 just wasnt the same.

:up:


#4735 man

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Posted 18 August 2010 - 19:49

Without him in those 3 years, F1 just wasnt the same.


:up: Agreed.

F1 was a lot cleaner.


#4736 merschu

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Posted 18 August 2010 - 20:09

Yeah with the spy-scandal, Singapore Crashgate, Max Mosley sex scandal,Lewis lying in Melbourne, F1 was so clean during this three years!

I guess Michael was thinking why didn't Flavio think something like the crash-gate for me during my time with Benetton!? :mad: :p

Edited by merschu, 18 August 2010 - 20:10.


#4737 man

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Posted 18 August 2010 - 20:22

Yeah with the spy-scandal, Singapore Crashgate, Max Mosley sex scandal,Lewis lying in Melbourne, F1 was so clean during this three years!

I guess Michael was thinking why didn't Flavio think something like the crash-gate for me during my time with Benetton!? :mad: :p


:up:

Though i'm sure the Barrichello family would take a bit of tabloid sex scandals, spying and the rest of it over being forced towards a wall at whatever mph anyday of the week. ;-)

#4738 chrisblades85

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Posted 18 August 2010 - 20:56

:up:

Though i'm sure the Barrichello family would take a bit of tabloid sex scandals, spying and the rest of it over being forced towards a wall at whatever mph anyday of the week. ;-)



Because no other driver ever has forced someone off the track before have they?

Don't get me wrong, the move was out of order and plain stupid. But don't pretend he's the only person ever to have made a move like that.

Anyway Schumacher to be World Champion 2011. I don't care what anyone else thinks (unless they think the same) This is nailed on. :confused: :lol: :eek:

#4739 Raelene

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Posted 18 August 2010 - 21:29

:up:

Though i'm sure the Barrichello family would take a bit of tabloid sex scandals, spying and the rest of it over being forced towards a wall at whatever mph anyday of the week. ;-)



Yes, I'm sure Rubens would love a sex scandal - something that would do damage to his marriage, over something that no damage was done :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

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#4740 baddog

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Posted 18 August 2010 - 22:10

:up: Agreed.

F1 was a lot cleaner.

F1 had probably its dirtiest years of all. But you didnt even notice?

Wow. One eyed at all?

#4741 SeanValen

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Posted 18 August 2010 - 22:47

Surely Michael's fifteen years in a variety of different cars at least gives you some idea of his ability? I would say that Rosberg has looked pretty good this year - as quick as he can be in the car, generally error free and going about his job without any fuss.


Michae's ability this year though is a puzzle, were not talking about Michae's first career, Massa had a accident last year and was out for races, whether or not that contributed to his offkey races this year who knows, or was it the rules/car/combination/or everything, Michael's been out 3 years, so who knows where's at, where he's going, what's going on, behind the scenes, he and Brawn seem upbeat about 2011, have been talking about it for a while now, clearly this Jenson Button designed car is not in harmony with MS this year, without testing, making a comeback, it's all guesswork, none of us posters know anything more which is why I'm not jumping to conclusions and judging Nico and Michael this year, I can wait, while others can let this season brainwash them.


The posters who post in this thread are not always going to agree, I think I'm right, they think their right, it's a Schumacher thread, 1000 plus posts, the legend is back, the forum is alive, everyone has something to talk about, and it'll go on and on and on.



The cars/tyres basically change every year but the best drivers adapt and dont miss a beat, i don't buy this MS is not being able to drive at his normal standard. MS is no longer the standard in F1, Lewis and Alonso are, and i think he also would struggle against the likes of Vettel and Kubica.


Maybe your forgetting he's been away for 3 years, Massa challenged for the title in 2008 and missed it by inch, he had a accident last year, missed races, and has been strangely off the pace this year, and he hasn't been away 3 years, as a retired driver returning back into modern f1, Michael stands alone and can't be compared with other drivers just yet, until we see a Michael who is happy with the car and is extracting his oversteer style for all to see in the laptimes, and then if he's still not performing, he'll walk away because he is his own best critic. This is a man who devoted 125% of his life to winning, making sacifices, testing overtime, he pushed the boundaries, now the sport has changed, the testing aspect has gone, the team have alot to do with MS's performance, and in his first year back of a 3 year contract, it's silly to make judgement especially with a car that wasn't born well, and we all know how important a car is for tyre performance. It's a combination of factors.


Alonso wasn't the standard in 2009 and 2008, alot had to do with the car and his own attitude and he's not even retired and coming back like MS, like I said earlier, returning to f1 is a different ballgame, the real truth is, everyone is scared that MS is going to win again, it's about putting down someone enchanching their achievements by one more step, surely a 8th title, after set backs, and critics putting you down, and with a 3rd team, Mercedes, which got him into f1, would be one of his finest titles against a 3rd generation of rivals, his 3rd decade of racing, it's this prospect, that MS is on the verge and or has the chance to achieve that many can't fanhom, that because this first year hasn't gone too plan, that perhaps wishing him away maybe it'll stop him from achieving anything, seeing is believing, until he does, no one will understand what he went through this year, Michael has to win again, even Jenson Button said that, given what he's achieved and how proud he is of his abilities/name in the sport, how badly he will fight for any point, it's almost silly and reckless to write him off. He had nothing to prove when he retired, but by coming back, he's perhaps found more reasons to fight harder when the opportunities come then he could of pre-envisoned, given his success, no one needs a podium more then that man, or win, or title, he is the hungariest driver out there, you gotta at least respect that and admire the ambition, where there is a will, there is a way.

Alot of people will be eating their words and going silent when he does perform. It's like after 3 years, alot of people miss hating him as much as miss seeing him drive=1000 plus posts easy!

MS, whenever he comes out of the pits, you expect something near great, I completely understand the battering he's taken this year, and it's bascially down to a misunderstanding of his issues against his own legend/hype/expectations, he's a winner, it's not a regular occurance to see him struggeling in a car, only time will tell whether he gets anything near the expectations we have for him, the best time to bash MS is after 2011, because even he has talked up 2011 so much, that if he hasn't improved by then, then your post can carry a bit more weight. It doesn't matter how many races he's done this year, he's been imprisoned in a car that has taken him by surprise, a bad dose of badlluck returning to f1 in this season, with this year and no testing perhaps, surely he expected better and we did as well, we'l see, since he's been so successful in the past, we haven't seen these issues before, it's a different era, wait and watch.




Edited by SeanValen, 18 August 2010 - 23:26.


#4742 JackTorrance

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Posted 18 August 2010 - 23:52

I completely understand the battering he's taken this year,



I dont in regards to the media. For years theyve made a lot of money writing about him, speculating on his retirement as far back as 2004. When he did finally retire they had noone to write about. When he did announce his return nobody could mention enough how great it was to have a 7 times world champion back on the grid. Its disgusting to see some of the things some 'journos' write about him. A total lack of respect and manners imo.



#4743 flyer121

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Posted 19 August 2010 - 01:00

Michae's ability this year though is a puzzle, were not talking about Michae's first career, Massa had a accident last year and was out for races, whether or not that contributed to his offkey races this year who knows, or was it the rules/car/combination/or everything, Michael's been out 3 years, so who knows where's at, where he's going, what's going on, behind the scenes, he and Brawn seem upbeat about 2011, have been talking about it for a while now, clearly this Jenson Button designed car is not in harmony with MS this year, without testing, making a comeback, it's all guesswork, none of us posters know anything more which is why I'm not jumping to conclusions and judging Nico and Michael this year, I can wait, while others can let this season brainwash them.
///
///
MS, whenever he comes out of the pits, you expect something near great, I completely understand the battering he's taken this year, and it's bascially down to a misunderstanding of his issues against his own legend/hype/expectations, he's a winner, it's not a regular occurance to see him struggeling in a car, only time will tell whether he gets anything near the expectations we have for him, the best time to bash MS is after 2011, because even he has talked up 2011 so much, that if he hasn't improved by then, then your post can carry a bit more weight. It doesn't matter how many races he's done this year, he's been imprisoned in a car that has taken him by surprise, a bad dose of badlluck returning to f1 in this season, with this year and no testing perhaps, surely he expected better and we did as well, we'l see, since he's been so successful in the past, we haven't seen these issues before, it's a different era, wait and watch.


Wow ,,,, that is some heavy fanspeak ! :up:

#4744 jimm

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Posted 19 August 2010 - 03:13

Signs of him losing his edge? I thought his last race of 2006 was testament on how great a driver he still was. It was one of the greatest drives of the season.
And he was out for 3 years with lots of testing restrictions (lets say it is banned completely) id say he does a more than reasonable job being a few tenths off Rosbergs times. Just look how Fisichella and Badoer fared last year. He also showed he can still battle as good as anyone, as we saw in Melbourne with Alguersuari.

Anyway, as far as im concerned he can drive in last place in each and every race he wants to compete. He had so many great races, he has such a long list of championships that nothing will ever make him look lesser. Its just great to see the legend back in F1. Without him in those 3 years, F1 just wasnt the same.



1 swallow does not make a summer. Go back through the 2006 season. He had flashes but as many bad days.

If he were just a 'few tenths" that would be one thing. As for your last point....I am sure his die hard fans are OK seeing him drive around but I doubt he will be content with it past this year and I really doubt they will at Merc. Nascar does this but it does not last long in F1 where you are only as good as your last race regardless of how you did before. Just ask Piquet with 3 wdc and 3 wins in the previous 18 races for a team that had only won 6 ever who was pushed out of Benneton the year Schumacher arrived.

#4745 black magic

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Posted 19 August 2010 - 07:21

not a bad career not withstanding no?

won his first race what 1992 and challenging still for a championship 2006 incl races like china and brazil

during that period only 3 - 4 seasons when he wasnt in championship contention.

I'd say whatever criteria you care to name that stands as a legendary career

any other driver produce the goods over such a length of time - and I'll concede from teh outset that michael 2006 was not quite the michael of say 96

just in case you are struggling you can add 1991 when he first arrived, and his last race in 2006 - people still talk of his perfromance in those race weekends. pretty impressive whatever way you slice or dice it.

I'd settle for a career with a fraction of his highs - guys like coulthard/ brundle might be nice chaps but sorry they werent even in the same league.

#4746 Chezrome

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Posted 19 August 2010 - 08:23

I dont in regards to the media. For years theyve made a lot of money writing about him, speculating on his retirement as far back as 2004. When he did finally retire they had noone to write about. When he did announce his return nobody could mention enough how great it was to have a 7 times world champion back on the grid. Its disgusting to see some of the things some 'journos' write about him. A total lack of respect and manners imo.


Can you give me some examples? I can't say that the presscoverage I've read is very negative about Schumacher. Are you perhaps mixing up reporting with op-ed articles and columns? A lot of 'disenchanted readers' tend to do that, in my experience...

#4747 Frans

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Posted 19 August 2010 - 08:52

Yeah with the spy-scandal, Singapore Crashgate, Max Mosley sex scandal,Lewis lying in Melbourne, F1 was so clean during this three years!


Don't forget to mention to add Schumacher's sabotage on Kimi's Ferrari. :wave:

#4748 Lifew12

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Posted 19 August 2010 - 09:04

I dont in regards to the media. For years theyve made a lot of money writing about him, speculating on his retirement as far back as 2004. When he did finally retire they had noone to write about. When he did announce his return nobody could mention enough how great it was to have a 7 times world champion back on the grid. Its disgusting to see some of the things some 'journos' write about him. A total lack of respect and manners imo.


What a strange comment. Are you suggesting that because he's given them plenty to write about in the past they should only write 'nice' things about him? Surely you want your journo's to report what is happening? Surely you, as an intelligent person, can see that Michael's performances in relation to Rosberg are worthy of talking about, or maybe you think every journo should qualify a 'Michael didn't make it to Q3 again' report by explaining that the cars not very good, he's been away for three years, he's 41, he's not happy with tyres, and we shouldn't really look too hard at his apprent lack of performance because, after all, he's a nice guy and he's given us fifteen years of good copy? The very fact that he IS a seven times world champion is what makes this seasons performances so notable; if he was Nick Heidfeld it wouldn't have been worthy of a mention. I must differ to you - I don't want fawning nonsense full of excuses but facts, and Michael isn't doing very well, is he?

Edited by Lifew12, 19 August 2010 - 09:05.


#4749 JustinCider

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Posted 19 August 2010 - 09:56

Signs of him losing his edge? I thought his last race of 2006 was testament on how great a driver he still was. It was one of the greatest drives of the season.
And he was out for 3 years with lots of testing restrictions (lets say it is banned completely) id say he does a more than reasonable job being a few tenths off Rosbergs times. Just look how Fisichella and Badoer fared last year. He also showed he can still battle as good as anyone, as we saw in Melbourne with Alguersuari.

Anyway, as far as im concerned he can drive in last place in each and every race he wants to compete. He had so many great races, he has such a long list of championships that nothing will ever make him look lesser. Its just great to see the legend back in F1. Without him in those 3 years, F1 just wasnt the same.


When Schumacher announced his retirement, many of his fans (and i suspect you are one), were running around various forums telling anyone that would listen that Schumacher was going to put all the young pretenders in their rightful place, etc. Then after a couple of races, that turned into "give him a couple of races to settle down", a couple of races after those couple of races it was "give him until half season to get used to the car, he's been out for three years". Now that's morphed into "wait until 2011 when the car will suit him and you will see the real Schumi".

Schumacher can battle for position, but unlike his first career, he's now battling to save his position, not gain one. I totally disagree that Schumacher isn't tarnishing his reputation. What happened to the man who could drive around a car's weaknesses, put an inferior car in places it should not be, whilst at the same time demolishing his teammate and putting them in their place. I see no signs of that man in 2010.

So if he hasn't lost it, exactly where is his edge ? He needs to find it soon, or questions will always remain about how much of his success was down to the team / car, and not just the man himself. If Schuamcher wants to keep his legacy intact he needs to improve quickly. I think if it were not for his previous glory (and PR), he would be struggling to retain his seat for the remainder of this season, let alone 2011.

Edited by JustinCider, 19 August 2010 - 10:03.


#4750 flyer121

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Posted 19 August 2010 - 10:13

at this rate the thread will soon be debating on wether schumachers sperm cheated inside his mothers womb to reach the egg first and wether he rammed another sperm into the wall :rotfl:


Did it?;) :)