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#4701 aditya-now

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Posted 17 August 2010 - 09:26

Q: You could always measure the quality of your cars. What are you feeling about the MGP W01?
MS: I am fully convinced that we have a car that is able to fight for the championship.


As they say, good drivers can always tell right away if a car "has it" (championship potential) or not.
Here Schumacher was clearly erring. He was not able to tell right away that the car did not "have it".

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#4702 Lifew12

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Posted 17 August 2010 - 09:27

I have given Alonso interview as an example what driver says about the car when he fills that it is a good car but I agree no one knows if it will be quick enough to compete for WDC and the felling about the car performance on the track is most important in training.
What strike me what all three drivers has thought about the performance of RB in training and there was major difference between Rosberg and the other two drivers.


I don't think there is any 'major difference' at all. All three were cautiously optimistic. Rosberg reckoned the Mercedes could go faster than the Red Bull. Michael thought it would have a shot at the title. Alonso says the feeling is positive.

None had a crystal ball, and all had the information from testing where they are limited to comparing their car to those on unknown programmes.

#4703 Lifew12

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Posted 17 August 2010 - 09:29

You have to read only the title


The title is written by a sub-editor, not the driver. I write titles in my job all the time, they don't always tell the real story (and deliberately so). The title to the Michael interview could easily have read 'Schumacher cautiously optimistic over MB pace' and still been 'accurate'.


#4704 aditya-now

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Posted 17 August 2010 - 09:33

I would think Heidfeld being released by Mercedes GP suggests Schumacher isn't planning on leaving end of the year.


Question here is if Heidfeld will be covertly working for Mercedes GP and Schumacher at his Pirelli tests.


#4705 slaveceru

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Posted 17 August 2010 - 09:39

The title is written by a sub-editor, not the driver. I write titles in my job all the time, they don't always tell the real story (and deliberately so). The title to the Michael interview could easily have read 'Schumacher cautiously optimistic over MB pace' and still been 'accurate'.


The title was taken from an interview. Why do you not read what Rosberg has said about RB performance if you read it you can see way is there such a title and in the case of Schumacher you can read it that he is as you have stated cautiously. Was Rosberg in your opinion also cautiously optimistic about the performance of the car?

#4706 TURU

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Posted 17 August 2010 - 09:40

Question here is if Heidfeld will be covertly working for Mercedes GP and Schumacher at his Pirelli tests.


No, he won't. He is no longer connected with Mercedes GP. I'm sure that there is a clause in his contract with Pirelli, which states that he mustn't have any contact with any team. I don't think that Heidfeld is eager to break terms of his just-signed contract with Pirelli.  ;) .

And I don't want next spygate, so let him fully concentrate on his task...

#4707 slaveceru

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Posted 17 August 2010 - 09:49

I don't think there is any 'major difference' at all. All three were cautiously optimistic. Rosberg reckoned the Mercedes could go faster than the Red Bull. Michael thought it would have a shot at the title. Alonso says the feeling is positive.

None had a crystal ball, and all had the information from testing where they are limited to comparing their car to those on unknown programmes.

All drivers from the top teams at the beginning of the F1 season will say that they have a shot to the title when they are asked this question did you not noticed this or what or when they come to the team who has won the last WDC?

Edited by slaveceru, 17 August 2010 - 09:51.


#4708 Lifew12

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Posted 17 August 2010 - 09:50

Was Rosberg in your opinion also cautiously optimistic about the performance of the car?


Let's have a look, shall we?

"Q: There are two weeks until Bahrain. After three tests, who would you say were the strongest contenders?
Nico R: It is still impossible to say. The car will make a big step forward in Bahrain. It’ll be almost like a new car, so everything might be completely different once we are there. I would say we are in pretty good shape."

Compare this to Michael:

"Q: Michael, after this test the next stop is Bahrain. Are you satisfied with the car?
Michael Schumacher: Only the future will show if it’s a winner. We are working very hard and there is still a lot of work to do. I would not say that at the moment it is all going according to plan, but on the other hand I know that the car here in Barcelona is not the car that I will drive in Bahrain. There are still upgrades that are missing, so it is quite difficult to make a valid judgment of where we are. "

So Nico says it's impossible to say, Michael says only the future will show. Nico says there will be a big step forwward at Bahrain, Michael says the car at Barcelona is not the car for Bahrain. Nico says they are in pretty good shape, Michael says it is difficult to make a valid judgement, and so on.

Neither says the car is great, neither says it's crap, both say it's got more to come, and both are more optimistic than pessimistic.

In answer to your question, yes, Nico is most definitely cautiously optimistic, and so is Michael. We'll ignore Alonso, as he has nothing to do with this.



#4709 flyer121

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Posted 17 August 2010 - 09:55

Question here is if Heidfeld will be covertly working for Mercedes GP and Schumacher at his Pirelli tests.


Quite possible ..

Pirelli are not going to give him the F1 drive he is working so hard for ..

He will come back to Merc either in 2011 (long shot) or 2012 (very likely)

#4710 eoin

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Posted 17 August 2010 - 09:58

Question here is if Heidfeld will be covertly working for Mercedes GP and Schumacher at his Pirelli tests.


:lol:
That level of paranoia isn't healthy!

Lifew12- those are two different questions. Rosberg was asked had they the best car, he felt that they might have, Schumacher was asked was he happy with the car and he said no.

Edited by eoin, 17 August 2010 - 10:00.


#4711 Lifew12

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Posted 17 August 2010 - 10:02

Lifew12- those are two different questions. Rosberg was asked had they the best car, he felt that they might have, Schumacher was asked was he happy with the car and he said no.


Michael doesn't say no at all, and Nico doesn't say they might have the best car either; Michael says it's difficult to make a judgement, Nico says it's impossible to tell.


#4712 slaveceru

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Posted 17 August 2010 - 10:22

Let's have a look, shall we?

"Q: There are two weeks until Bahrain. After three tests, who would you say were the strongest contenders?
Nico R: It is still impossible to say. The car will make a big step forward in Bahrain. It’ll be almost like a new car, so everything might be completely different once we are there. I would say we are in pretty good shape."

Compare this to Michael:

"Q: Michael, after this test the next stop is Bahrain. Are you satisfied with the car?
Michael Schumacher: Only the future will show if it’s a winner. We are working very hard and there is still a lot of work to do. I would not say that at the moment it is all going according to plan, but on the other hand I know that the car here in Barcelona is not the car that I will drive in Bahrain. There are still upgrades that are missing, so it is quite difficult to make a valid judgment of where we are. "

So Nico says it's impossible to say, Michael says only the future will show. Nico says there will be a big step forwward at Bahrain, Michael says the car at Barcelona is not the car for Bahrain. Nico says they are in pretty good shape, Michael says it is difficult to make a valid judgement, and so on.

Neither says the car is great, neither says it's crap, both say it's got more to come, and both are more optimistic than pessimistic.

In answer to your question, yes, Nico is most definitely cautiously optimistic, and so is Michael. We'll ignore Alonso, as he has nothing to do with this.


Ok than we agree to disagree. No driver will say that the car at the beginning is the winning car or is crap but there are differences.





#4713 Lifew12

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Posted 17 August 2010 - 10:41

Ok than we agree to disagree. No driver will say that the car at the beginning is the winning car or is crap but there are differences.


Absolutely; there are no major differences, however, as both drivers say pretty much the same thing.

I agree with you entirely that no driver is going to declare his car as 'crap' but many would - and have - stated they are optimistic; the problem is that it is difficult, as both these drivers attest to, to draw a sensible conclusion from testing as nobody really knows what the others are doing. Both Michael and Nico made a fair assessment of the car after testing - that's all we can expect them to do - but attempting to analyse the words of each to say one was 'right' and the other 'wrong' is a false hope. Rosberg is no fool and comes highly rated in terms of his development prowess from his days at Williams; Michael has years of experience in the field that have not gone away because he's a bit older and has been out for a while. I'm sure that each offers something of worth to the team.

#4714 Muz Bee

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Posted 17 August 2010 - 10:45

Whaaaaat???
All this "he said this, he said that" rubbish is meant to prove something. Like Nico has never driven a decent car in F1 so he isn't qualified to what? Alonso said beforre Bahrain that the Ferrari was the best car he had driven and was bullish about his prospects. So what? F1 these days is more than ever a development race in-season with no testing opportunities. The team that has a head start at the first race won't necessarily be fastest at mid-season let alone end of season and WDC.

Let's for a moment say that Nico actually was more optimistic about the MB before Bahrain than Michael, and I'm far from convinced he was. After the 4 race "fly away" segment of the calendar Nico was 2nd in the WDC and had scored two consecutive podiums. Compare Michael's performances that dropped our jaws in amazement really. Maybe IF there was a difference, and I doubt there was really much difference in opinion, that they WERE BOTH RIGHT!

What has become real trend is Red Bull have had amazing development gains during the season and the others (and especially Mercedes) are struggling to keep up with that development. The Michael factor of (reputedly) dragging car development along has had a poor result. OK, I accept the car has fundamental problems and is something of a shed aerodynamically.

It seems like the Schumacher faithful are trying to now grab hold of some notion that Rosberg can't get a handle on a race car and that maybe THIS is holding back the team. Or is not the point being hewn out of the pieces in the recent posts. Hell, on that basis maybe Mercedes need to think hard who should team up with Michael in 2011. :lol:

#4715 Buttoneer

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Posted 17 August 2010 - 10:48

A reminder of the thread subject.

Aim of this thread is to discuss issues related to Michael Schumacher. After Bahrain voices were heard about several weaknesses in his current cornering technique. It is my hope we can continue in that spirit, and check on him through the season.

I wish to welcome all, friends and also those ready for conversion as well.;)

There are threads for the battle with his teammate and for the car, so please try and focus the discussion a little more to Schumacher in this thread. I appreciate that there must inevitably be some overlap but I'd like to see the various threads back on target now please.

#4716 Muz Bee

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Posted 17 August 2010 - 10:53

Schumi: I am not in harmony with my car
http://www.yallaf1.c...ny-with-my-car/

I think what Michael says here is totally plausible but as an armchair critic would add that it looks like aero is incredibly inefficient. The Mercedes engine is reputably the best of the bunch (and the McLaren seems to exhibit this) but the Mercedes chassis's utilisation of this good power results in trap speeds only better than the B teams. The car also seems to suffer more in the dirty air than others as witnessed by how the drivers struggle to get within 1.0 second of a car which is measurably slower. The drivers seem to know this and drive accordingly, often falling back 2- 2.5 seconds and conserving their (front) tires. It has become more and more apparent that the car has massive flaws in it's fundamentals so Schumie does have SOME excuses, even if Rosberg has extracted some better than can be expected results.

#4717 man

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Posted 17 August 2010 - 11:01

Hmmm this is an eye opener. I think it's fantastic how this thread has developed...a brilliant example of the esteem that celebrity icons are held by certain demographics.

The thread started of as a series of predictions of how M Schumqcher will diminish the competition into nothingness. It then evolved into a series of excuses for his performances. After which it evolved to a "let's blame Ross Brawn and Mercedes GP" fest. Then the next stage was how M Schumacher is superior to other drivers on the basis that he can sell more tee shirts and hats. Then there was a case presented that the likes of Damon Hill and Jacques Villeneuve were better than the likes of Lewis Hamilton and Fernando Alonso today. ;-) Then the focus turned to a question of semantics and how some PR generated material generate by the drivers during pre season demonstrates the superiority of M Schumacher over Rosberg.

This thread is an anthropologists dream ;-)

How do fanatics react in times of desperation.

Edited by man, 17 August 2010 - 11:02.


#4718 baddog

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Posted 17 August 2010 - 11:29

Actually, by sheer weight and attitude of postings from about 4 people, the thread has become a stunning example of how powerful negative obsession is and the hold it can exhibit over, presumably in other areas of life, rational people.. People who, not long after declaring a total lack of biased opinion or even great interest, can quote from memory chapter and verse from a minor incident 10 years ago regarding their 'anti-hero'. Yeah we all totally bought your 'Im just not a fanboy but a serious uinbiased observer' routine there ;)

Michael however continues to drive/work, and we all remain to see the final analysis of this season, let alone the 3 year project he is embarked upon.

#4719 ivand911

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Posted 17 August 2010 - 12:01

I think what Michael says here is totally plausible but as an armchair critic would add that it looks like aero is incredibly inefficient. The Mercedes engine is reputably the best of the bunch (and the McLaren seems to exhibit this) but the Mercedes chassis's utilisation of this good power results in trap speeds only better than the B teams. The car also seems to suffer more in the dirty air than others as witnessed by how the drivers struggle to get within 1.0 second of a car which is measurably slower. The drivers seem to know this and drive accordingly, often falling back 2- 2.5 seconds and conserving their (front) tires. It has become more and more apparent that the car has massive flaws in it's fundamentals so Schumie does have SOME excuses, even if Rosberg has extracted some better than can be expected results.

Good ,fair opinion.


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#4720 Lifew12

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Posted 17 August 2010 - 12:12

Actually, by sheer weight and attitude of postings from about 4 people, the thread has become a stunning example of how powerful negative obsession is and the hold it can exhibit over, presumably in other areas of life, rational people.. People who, not long after declaring a total lack of biased opinion or even great interest, can quote from memory chapter and verse from a minor incident 10 years ago regarding their 'anti-hero'. Yeah we all totally bought your 'Im just not a fanboy but a serious uinbiased observer' routine there ;)


As it is, I would say you're on the wrong track, and that a great number of posts on this thread depict how being a 'fan' has changed, in F1 certainly, in recent years. I'm not a fan of Michael Schumacher any more than I am a 'hater', and nor am I a fan of any driver in particular, but in daring to question his performances this year, his reasons for continuing in the face of what i see as pointless adversity, and how the driver today can be compared with the driver of a few years ago most people automatically assume that i must be, in some way, shape or form, a 'hater' or someone who sets out to discredit Michael Schumacher. The same attitude is displayed blatantly on other threads; on one I'm slated as a 'Ferrari fan' for daring to suggest that what they were fined for in Germany wasn't really much more than a tribulation, while at the same time am highlighted as a Mclaren fan for, in the past, stating I thought the whole spygate sage a mountain out of a molehill. I could, and do, say the same about other teams, drivers, etc as I would about Michael Schumacher, Ferrari, and so on. Because you don't agree with my viewpoint doesn't mean that I, or anyone else, must have an 'agenda'; I don't accuse you of having one here, and nor would I. I have no 'biased opinion' on Michael Schumacher other than that he's one of the finest racing drivers I have had the pleasure of watching; however, the minute I step beyond that and say I don't believe him to be in the top three of all time I will be told I'm a 'hater', I'm stubborn, and so on, and so on, and eventually will likely be told it's because I'm English.

What this thread proves, more than anything, is that being a fan of f1, of motor racing, is a thing of the past in the eyes of many of the newer fans to the sport; instead, you have to have a firm, fixed agenda, and stick to that no matter what. I'm afraid that's bollocks; Michael Schumacher may have been brilliant on many occasions in the past, but he hasn't been this year, and that I would have said had it been Hakkinen, Villeneuve, Coulthard, Montoya, whoever it was making a less than stunnign comeback.

#4721 slaveceru

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Posted 17 August 2010 - 12:58

What has become real trend is Red Bull have had amazing development gains during the season and the others (and especially Mercedes) are struggling to keep up with that development. The Michael factor of (reputedly) dragging car development along has had a poor result. OK, I accept the car has fundamental problems and is something of a shed aerodynamically.

Are you watching the same races? Red Bul did not have amazing development gains during the season in comparison to Ferrari or Mclaren. There whole package at the beginning was better then the rest. They were quicker then Mclaren without F-duct. They had problems with endurance and they have made some serious mistakes. All others are just watching them and figuring out why are they so quick. If the basic designee is good you do not need to have better development then the rest of the teams in F1 but if your designee has a flaw or is not good enough even amazing development as you call it will not help you to become better.

Edited by slaveceru, 17 August 2010 - 13:05.


#4722 aditya-now

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Posted 17 August 2010 - 13:09

:lol:
That level of paranoia isn't healthy!


Ah, you are new to F1, it seems!

Does Singapore 2008 or Spygate 2007 ring any bell with you?
That level of naivety isn´t healthy!


#4723 Lifew12

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Posted 17 August 2010 - 13:14

Red Bul did not have amazing development gains during the season in comparison to Ferrari or Mclaren.



I think they do; I would say Red Bull's rate of development this year has been quite stunning. They've kept ahead of the others, after all. This belongs somewhere else.


#4724 aditya-now

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Posted 17 August 2010 - 13:17

Hmmm this is an eye opener. I think it's fantastic how this thread has developed...a brilliant example of the esteem that celebrity icons are held by certain demographics.

The thread started of as a series of predictions of how M Schumqcher will diminish the competition into nothingness. It then evolved into a series of excuses for his performances. After which it evolved to a "let's blame Ross Brawn and Mercedes GP" fest. Then the next stage was how M Schumacher is superior to other drivers on the basis that he can sell more tee shirts and hats. Then there was a case presented that the likes of Damon Hill and Jacques Villeneuve were better than the likes of Lewis Hamilton and Fernando Alonso today. ;-) Then the focus turned to a question of semantics and how some PR generated material generate by the drivers during pre season demonstrates the superiority of M Schumacher over Rosberg.

This thread is an anthropologists dream ;-)

How do fanatics react in times of desperation.


A very valid study you are presenting here, man. I am myself surprised again and again at the subthemes this thread throws up - after all, even now in the summer break, when all are resting, there is no rest in the Schumacher thread. And it´s nice how you enumerate the subthemes - it shows how the human psychology is prone to any maneuvre to just avoid an issue....

Not only an anthropoligist's, but also a psychologist's dream.


#4725 ivand911

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Posted 17 August 2010 - 13:18

Ah, you are new to F1, it seems!

Does Singapore 2008 or Spygate 2007 ring any bell with you?
That level of naivety isn´t healthy!

I am sure Nick know, what he need to know. Massive front grip for next year tyres. :rotfl:

Edited by ivand911, 17 August 2010 - 13:21.


#4726 aditya-now

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Posted 17 August 2010 - 13:28

Hmmm this is an eye opener. I think it's fantastic how this thread has developed...a brilliant example of the esteem that celebrity icons are held by certain demographics.

The thread started of as a series of predictions of how M Schumqcher will diminish the competition into nothingness. It then evolved into a series of excuses for his performances. After which it evolved to a "let's blame Ross Brawn and Mercedes GP" fest. Then the next stage was how M Schumacher is superior to other drivers on the basis that he can sell more tee shirts and hats. Then there was a case presented that the likes of Damon Hill and Jacques Villeneuve were better than the likes of Lewis Hamilton and Fernando Alonso today. ;-) Then the focus turned to a question of semantics and how some PR generated material generate by the drivers during pre season demonstrates the superiority of M Schumacher over Rosberg.

This thread is an anthropologists dream ;-)


Let's take it all in good humour, it's the summer break, so little news anyway. :D

#4727 Frans

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Posted 17 August 2010 - 15:41

In Monza 2008 , STR wasn't lower mid field team with 1st and 4th position on the start.



Ohw come on.... what about the Arrows of Damon Hill in Hugary 1997 then?
Just BS, ... STR was the Minardi before, Vettel was able to put it there and even win in it.

Schumacher can't even win in a Mercedes, (former Brawn) which was last season the team/car to beat.

All with all, Schumacher is not even half the shadow he is claimed to have been by his fanboys all these years. Face it. Schumacher always has been a farce and fake.

Better put all your hopes on 2011, and not even that, HOPE REAL hard that Brawn can't pull something out of they're hat so they can cheat themselves to the top for a while. And that's his ONLY change. his ONLY change /// and he knows it!

#4728 Birelman

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Posted 17 August 2010 - 15:56

First I wasn't dismissing Vettel win in STR. I just point that the car wasn't so bad. Yes, other driver Bourdais did show such good results like Vettel. About MGP car, for me Nico is getting maximum from it. We never saw Lewis driving other F1 car than McLaren(from first day he was driving competitive cars). I don't think he could adapt better to MGP car than Nico. About Alonso he know how to drive not so good cars, like Nico ,then maybe he could be around his level. But, nobody could say 100% how Lewis and Alonso will do in MGP car. I would very like to see this. Because it is not working this way: I think they are better drivers than Nico ,then they will beat him with every car. This is not true. It is easy to be in Ferrari and McLaren worlds. About Michael he need to learn not only how to drive this new car, and also how to work in new "no test" conditions. Now they use simulators,CFD and other stuff he don't know much. In this area he will have problems to catch Nico. Not only cars and tyres changed in this 3 years. In Turkey they tell him we expect 2-3mm rain and he was : What!!!!!
And now 100 people will come here to say that even if Lewis go now in MGP he will destroy Nico. :rotfl:

Oh, that's what this is all about...

Well, that's easy, Alonso and Hamilton are two of the best, if not the bes 2 drivers today. So, they would be doing a little bit better than Nico, more probably than not. How much better? I don't know, not a whole lot though, maybe more consistent, maybe more constant rate of developement, who knows? But considering they are the best in the business today, there is no reason to believe they wouldn't be doing fractionally better than Nico, at the very least.

#4729 Johnrambo

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Posted 17 August 2010 - 16:17

Schumacher driving for Mercedes next year is the best Christmas present Mercedes can give for other teams. :wave:

#4730 ivand911

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Posted 17 August 2010 - 16:28

Schumacher driving for Mercedes next year is the best Christmas present Mercedes can give for other teams. :wave:

To his fans too. :wave: Thanks Mercedes.

Edited by ivand911, 17 August 2010 - 16:29.


#4731 Frans

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Posted 17 August 2010 - 17:45

:lol: :lol: Good one! :up:

#4732 Kovalonso

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Posted 17 August 2010 - 19:59

:eek: I can't believe :eek:

That's the first time a read about a convergence of opinions...

both Schumacher's supporters and bashers want him to stay in F1.

OMG... it was written in Apocalipse... the day forumers agree 100% in the Autosport board... another seal will be broken and THE END will be closer.

By-by cruel world :wave:


#4733 Muz Bee

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Posted 17 August 2010 - 20:48

Lifew12 :up: with your illustration about the ridiculous accusations of "hater". It reminds me of George W's "if you aren't for us you're against us" comment post 9/11, the way it seeks to polarise an argument rather than discuss and analyse.

Those who choose the Bush line of "belief" will forever miss the nuances and with that, the richness of something as complex as F1.
How anyone can say that Michael's results this year aren't disappointing (or worse) just illustrates that fanship tends to be like blind faith.
As I said in a recent post, a new season with new tire supplier may shuffle the pack and give MS a lift up the grid but it's hard to see this not also benefiting his teammate. I know this is a Schumacher thread so at the risk of straying OT, we don't yet know how close to the front line of Hamilton and Alonso, Rosberg is. His stocks have definitely risen this year because nobody (including me) expected him to dominate his teammate like this. He drives a car which is NOT capable of competing for wins and everyone, most of all Mercedes principles, knows this for certain. We can now have reasonable certainty that he is somewhere close to the top 2 drivers, how close we will need a new season, maybe next year's Mercedes F1 will reveal. Michael on the other hand will do well to get another win.

#4734 baddog

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Posted 17 August 2010 - 22:07

As it is, I would say you're on the wrong track, and that a great number of posts on this thread depict how being a 'fan' has changed, in F1 certainly, in recent years. I'm not a fan of Michael Schumacher any more than I am a 'hater', and nor am I a fan of any driver in particular, but in daring to question his performances this year, his reasons for continuing in the face of what i see as pointless adversity, and how the driver today can be compared with the driver of a few years ago most people automatically assume that i must be, in some way, shape or form, a 'hater' or someone who sets out to discredit Michael Schumacher. The same attitude is displayed blatantly on other threads; on one I'm slated as a 'Ferrari fan' for daring to suggest that what they were fined for in Germany wasn't really much more than a tribulation, while at the same time am highlighted as a Mclaren fan for, in the past, stating I thought the whole spygate sage a mountain out of a molehill. I could, and do, say the same about other teams, drivers, etc as I would about Michael Schumacher, Ferrari, and so on. Because you don't agree with my viewpoint doesn't mean that I, or anyone else, must have an 'agenda'; I don't accuse you of having one here, and nor would I. I have no 'biased opinion' on Michael Schumacher other than that he's one of the finest racing drivers I have had the pleasure of watching; however, the minute I step beyond that and say I don't believe him to be in the top three of all time I will be told I'm a 'hater', I'm stubborn, and so on, and so on, and eventually will likely be told it's because I'm English.

What this thread proves, more than anything, is that being a fan of f1, of motor racing, is a thing of the past in the eyes of many of the newer fans to the sport; instead, you have to have a firm, fixed agenda, and stick to that no matter what. I'm afraid that's bollocks; Michael Schumacher may have been brilliant on many occasions in the past, but he hasn't been this year, and that I would have said had it been Hakkinen, Villeneuve, Coulthard, Montoya, whoever it was making a less than stunnign comeback.

I dont have a lot of criticism for your comments in this thread (though I have had plenty for you in the past on other topics of course!). Not regarding Michael as in your personal 'top three' is not even controversial to me, let alone evidence of a hater! I do have him in my top 10, but I dont have that top 10 in a rank at all as I consider that impossible. Too many magnifcent drivers for too many years to have the cheek to try.

There are in fact many kneejerk responses etc as you describe, but I was highlighting that there are two sides to that fence.. for every person making silly excuses for his (by his standards) poor performance this year there are two just dogpiling in with what really DOES amount to 'omfg he sucks and always did, like I always knew'. And yet those same people then post something like you posted above as if claiming to be 'just a non fanboy' makes it so. You at least are intellectually consistent.

#4735 SeanValen

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Posted 17 August 2010 - 23:12

I know this is a Schumacher thread so at the risk of straying OT, we don't yet know how close to the front line of Hamilton and Alonso, Rosberg is. His stocks have definitely risen this year because nobody (including me) expected him to dominate his teammate like this. He drives a car which is NOT capable of competing for wins and everyone, most of all Mercedes principles, knows this for certain.



It's easy though to overate Rosberg until we truely understand Michael's struggles this year, if were comparing Michael, we wanna know is this Michael being caged up like a lion and is just not working his legendary overstreer pointy car play with the rear end set up to corner, because of this years Jenson Button/front tyres rules car which is completely another world for how MS likes to drive the car, and is MS making more comprimises to drive this year without letting it rip because that's the way he must drive the car this year. If that's the case of cource he's making Rosberg look better, so it's very easy to jump the gun, speaking for me personally, I'm not gonna rate Rosberg until MS had done more years, different cars, at the end of the day, this year, neither have won races or titles, which is what counts. MS has made it cearly a while ago, for him, it's about 2011, Rosberg may be just be having a season without MS extracting his consistent potential for what is a unique season for MS, the key to understanding how good rosberg is, is waiting for Michael to get up to his old standard, the only thing MS has done other then struggle is be MS, but just because he's MS-7times champion struggling, don't mean Rosberg is any greater then before this year, until MS is not struggeling, we'll know a little bit more about rosberg. Long term thinking.


Edited by SeanValen, 17 August 2010 - 23:21.


#4736 Yorkie

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Posted 17 August 2010 - 23:50

It's easy though to overate Rosberg until we truely understand Michael's struggles this year, if were comparing Michael, we wanna know is this Michael being caged up like a lion and is just not working his legendary overstreer pointy car play with the rear end set up to corner, because of this years Jenson Button/front tyres rules car which is completely another world for how MS likes to drive the car, and is MS making more comprimises to drive this year without letting it rip because that's the way he must drive the car this year. If that's the case of cource he's making Rosberg look better, so it's very easy to jump the gun, speaking for me personally, I'm not gonna rate Rosberg until MS had done more years, different cars, at the end of the day, this year, neither have won races or titles, which is what counts. MS has made it cearly a while ago, for him, it's about 2011, Rosberg may be just be having a season without MS extracting his consistent potential for what is a unique season for MS, the key to understanding how good rosberg is, is waiting for Michael to get up to his old standard, the only thing MS has done other then struggle is be MS, but just because he's MS-7times champion struggling, don't mean Rosberg is any greater then before this year, until MS is not struggeling, we'll know a little bit more about rosberg. Long term thinking.

I've no doubt that in his prime MS was an exceptional driver but i could never understand why he was so paranoid about having advantages over his teammates and never tested himself against a real topline teammate, until now perhaps.

The cars/tyres basically change every year but the best drivers adapt and dont miss a beat, i don't buy this MS is not being able to drive at his normal standard. MS is no longer the standard in F1, Lewis and Alonso are, and i think he also would struggle against the likes of Vettel and Kubica.

#4737 hotstickyslick

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Posted 18 August 2010 - 00:49

Ohw come on.... what about the Arrows of Damon Hill in Hugary 1997 then?
Just BS, ... STR was the Minardi before, Vettel was able to put it there and even win in it.

Schumacher can't even win in a Mercedes, (former Brawn) which was last season the team/car to beat.

All with all, Schumacher is not even half the shadow he is claimed to have been by his fanboys all these years. Face it. Schumacher always has been a farce and fake.

Better put all your hopes on 2011, and not even that, HOPE REAL hard that Brawn can't pull something out of they're hat so they can cheat themselves to the top for a while. And that's his ONLY change. his ONLY change /// and he knows it!

How is that BS? Like was said the car qualified first and fourth - the car being of an ADRIAN NEWEY design with a FERRARI engine. Not exactly a Minardi anymore was it?

Neither can Rosberg. The Mercedes is a different car from the Brawn.



#4738 arknor

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Posted 18 August 2010 - 02:37

at this rate the thread will soon be debating on wether schumachers sperm cheated inside his mothers womb to reach the egg first and wether he rammed another sperm into the wall :rotfl:

Edited by arknor, 18 August 2010 - 02:38.


#4739 jimm

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Posted 18 August 2010 - 03:01

It's easy though to overate Rosberg until we truely understand Michael's struggles this year, if were comparing Michael, we wanna know is this Michael being caged up like a lion and is just not working his legendary overstreer pointy car play with the rear end set up to corner, because of this years Jenson Button/front tyres rules car which is completely another world for how MS likes to drive the car, and is MS making more comprimises to drive this year without letting it rip because that's the way he must drive the car this year. If that's the case of cource he's making Rosberg look better, so it's very easy to jump the gun, speaking for me personally, I'm not gonna rate Rosberg until MS had done more years, different cars, at the end of the day, this year, neither have won races or titles, which is what counts. MS has made it cearly a while ago, for him, it's about 2011, Rosberg may be just be having a season without MS extracting his consistent potential for what is a unique season for MS, the key to understanding how good rosberg is, is waiting for Michael to get up to his old standard, the only thing MS has done other then struggle is be MS, but just because he's MS-7times champion struggling, don't mean Rosberg is any greater then before this year, until MS is not struggeling, we'll know a little bit more about rosberg. Long term thinking.



What if MS continued to "struggle" against Rosberg. Your whole thesis is dependant on your original bias that MS should be much faster than Rosberg. Will not argue with you either way about before he left. At 41 and after a 3 yr lay off, new rules and being out of touch with development, he is not and with the current formula is not likely to be. 10+ races is enough time to adapt regardless of testing espeically considering he came into the sport with no testing and did well. He also drove the Ferrari in 1996 well and it was known to understeer.

MS fans just need to accept that the current MS just may be a different driver than the one that drove in the 90s and early '00s. Really, he was showing signs of losing his edge in 2006. Add a lay off to that, and it is really not that suprising he has stuggled this year. Put it this way, if he had stayed in the sport and had to take on Alonso, Lewis, and Vettel all near thier prime and all in competitive cars, it would be a tall order at 41...for any driver.

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#4740 Muz Bee

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Posted 18 August 2010 - 04:56

What if MS continued to "struggle" against Rosberg. Your whole thesis is dependant on your original bias that MS should be much faster than Rosberg. Will not argue with you either way about before he left. At 41 and after a 3 yr lay off, new rules and being out of touch with development, he is not and with the current formula is not likely to be. 10+ races is enough time to adapt regardless of testing espeically considering he came into the sport with no testing and did well. He also drove the Ferrari in 1996 well and it was known to understeer.

MS fans just need to accept that the current MS just may be a different driver than the one that drove in the 90s and early '00s. Really, he was showing signs of losing his edge in 2006. Add a lay off to that, and it is really not that suprising he has stuggled this year. Put it this way, if he had stayed in the sport and had to take on Alonso, Lewis, and Vettel all near thier prime and all in competitive cars, it would be a tall order at 41...for any driver.

:up: i don't always agree with you but this is it to a T. MS was outraced by Fernando to 2xWDC before he retired, close but not quite the formidable champion any more. Add a 3 year layoff and the injection of some young talent and others developing and you have the drivers you mention plus of course his young teammate (who may be still approaching his potential), plus Kubica.

None of his incredibly faithful fans can provide a satisfactory theory for why the old lion can savage his young teammate in a new 2011 car, other than having him caged like an Irvine or a Barrichello who only occasionally needed to yield back then. Even leading the development of MGP in a particular direction will not ensure Rosberg isn't quicker as they have a similar driving style. Of all the teammate comparisons so far this year the Rosberg v Schumacher one is the most one-sided.

#4741 slaveceru

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Posted 18 August 2010 - 05:38

I think they do; I would say Red Bull's rate of development this year has been quite stunning. They've kept ahead of the others, after all. This belongs somewhere else.

It is the question of egg and chicken. It goes either way. They have introduced fewer new things in to the car throughout the season in comparison to Ferrari or Mclaren but all the parts that they have putted into the car worked very well. All other teams are copying the solutions from RB which were there on the car at the beginning so all others are playing the catch. We all know that Newey is the master in aerodynamic designee of the car so I think that there basic designee was and still is so much better than the rest that so it is hard to say that there development pace is superior in comparison to Ferrari or Mclaren.

Edited by slaveceru, 18 August 2010 - 05:43.


#4742 aditya-now

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Posted 18 August 2010 - 08:03

http://www.auto-moto...li-2277386.html

Norbert Haug: "....there is no available driver with more experience and knowledge than Nick, to steer the tyre development into the right direction".

Bodes well for Schumi's 2011... ;)


#4743 MikeTekRacing

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Posted 18 August 2010 - 08:07

taken out of context, obviously

#4744 Lifew12

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Posted 18 August 2010 - 08:14

but all the parts that they have putted into the car worked very well.


That's what excellent development is. It's not about how many new parts you put on (although contrary to what you think Red Bull have in no way 'put fewer things' on the car) it's about making sure they make the car go faster. Has McLaren's blown floor worked? Is Ferrari's flexi front wing on a par? And so on; the answer is no. Despite having the might of Ferrari and Mclaren behind it, Red Bull has continued to head the development race at a pace. Last year Brawn started with car that had - arguably - a bigger advantage than the Red Bull this year; by now it didn't. Red Bull's development rate has, quite frankly, been astonishing.


#4745 Fortymark

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Posted 18 August 2010 - 08:27

It's easy though to overate Rosberg until we truely understand Michael's struggles this year, if were comparing Michael, we wanna know is this Michael being caged up like a lion and is just not working his legendary overstreer pointy car play with the rear end set up to corner, because of this years Jenson Button/front tyres rules car which is completely another world for how MS likes to drive the car, and is MS making more comprimises to drive this year without letting it rip because that's the way he must drive the car this year. If that's the case of cource he's making Rosberg look better, so it's very easy to jump the gun, speaking for me personally, I'm not gonna rate Rosberg until MS had done more years, different cars, at the end of the day, this year, neither have won races or titles, which is what counts. MS has made it cearly a while ago, for him, it's about 2011, Rosberg may be just be having a season without MS extracting his consistent potential for what is a unique season for MS, the key to understanding how good rosberg is, is waiting for Michael to get up to his old standard, the only thing MS has done other then struggle is be MS, but just because he's MS-7times champion struggling, don't mean Rosberg is any greater then before this year, until MS is not struggeling, we'll know a little bit more about rosberg. Long term thinking.


Jenson Button has said that he prefers an oversteery car over a understeery due to his smooth driver style
which provokes/makes understeer. Jenson drives in a smooth radius while some drivers makes a more "V-shaped"
turn.


#4746 Lifew12

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Posted 18 August 2010 - 08:36

speaking for me personally, I'm not gonna rate Rosberg until MS had done more years, different cars,


Surely Michael's fifteen years in a variety of different cars at least gives you some idea of his ability? I would say that Rosberg has looked pretty good this year - as quick as he can be in the car, generally error free and going about his job without any fuss.

#4747 ivand911

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Posted 18 August 2010 - 08:38

http://www.auto-moto...li-2277386.html

Norbert Haug: "....there is no available driver with more experience and knowledge than Nick, to steer the tyre development into the right direction".

Bodes well for Schumi's 2011...;)

What is the point for Nick to help Michael? It is opposite for me if he want second MGP seat. I also don't think Nick is fan of Michael. As much as I like what you mean here, it will not happen.


#4748 aditya-now

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Posted 18 August 2010 - 12:43

taken out of context, obviously


You cannot read German? Just run it through a translation software....

http://www.auto-moto...li-2277386.html


:p




#4749 JackTorrance

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Posted 18 August 2010 - 16:44

He also drove the Ferrari in 1996 well and it was known to understeer.

MS fans just need to accept that the current MS just may be a different driver than the one that drove in the 90s and early '00s. Really, he was showing signs of losing his edge in 2006. Add a lay off to that, and it is really not that suprising he has stuggled this year. Put it this way, if he had stayed in the sport and had to take on Alonso, Lewis, and Vettel all near thier prime and all in competitive cars, it would be a tall order at 41...for any driver.



Signs of him losing his edge? I thought his last race of 2006 was testament on how great a driver he still was. It was one of the greatest drives of the season.
And he was out for 3 years with lots of testing restrictions (lets say it is banned completely) id say he does a more than reasonable job being a few tenths off Rosbergs times. Just look how Fisichella and Badoer fared last year. He also showed he can still battle as good as anyone, as we saw in Melbourne with Alguersuari.

Anyway, as far as im concerned he can drive in last place in each and every race he wants to compete. He had so many great races, he has such a long list of championships that nothing will ever make him look lesser. Its just great to see the legend back in F1. Without him in those 3 years, F1 just wasnt the same.

#4750 ivand911

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Posted 18 August 2010 - 19:38

Signs of him losing his edge? I thought his last race of 2006 was testament on how great a driver he still was. It was one of the greatest drives of the season.
And he was out for 3 years with lots of testing restrictions (lets say it is banned completely) id say he does a more than reasonable job being a few tenths off Rosbergs times. Just look how Fisichella and Badoer fared last year. He also showed he can still battle as good as anyone, as we saw in Melbourne with Alguersuari.

Anyway, as far as im concerned he can drive in last place in each and every race he wants to compete. He had so many great races, he has such a long list of championships that nothing will ever make him look lesser. Its just great to see the legend back in F1. Without him in those 3 years, F1 just wasnt the same.

:up: