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#4751 slaveceru

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Posted 19 August 2010 - 13:15

When Schumacher announced his retirement, many of his fans (and i suspect you are one), were running around various forums telling anyone that would listen that Schumacher was going to put all the young pretenders in their rightful place, etc. Then after a couple of races, that turned into "give him a couple of races to settle down", a couple of races after those couple of races it was "give him until half season to get used to the car, he's been out for three years". Now that's morphed into "wait until 2011 when the car will suit him and you will see the real Schumi".

Schumacher can battle for position, but unlike his first career, he's now battling to save his position, not gain one. I totally disagree that Schumacher isn't tarnishing his reputation. What happened to the man who could drive around a car's weaknesses, put an inferior car in places it should not be, whilst at the same time demolishing his teammate and putting them in their place. I see no signs of that man in 2010.

So if he hasn't lost it, exactly where is his edge ? He needs to find it soon, or questions will always remain about how much of his success was down to the team / car, and not just the man himself. If Schuamcher wants to keep his legacy intact he needs to improve quickly. I think if it were not for his previous glory (and PR), he would be struggling to retain his seat for the remainder of this season, let alone 2011.

In a short run he is tarnishing his reputation but on the long run he is not. After 50 years from now the history will only remember his WDC wins and his grand prix wins. How the history will grade his results also depends on how long his records will stay intact.

Edited by slaveceru, 19 August 2010 - 13:22.


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#4752 Buttoneer

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Posted 19 August 2010 - 13:27

After 50 years from now the history will only remember his WDC wins and his grand prix wins.

And his black flags, and his disqualifications, and his lack of success in making a phoenix-like return in 2010. Same is true for all drivers. The only thing unlikely to have carried forward for 50 years is whether he signed a little boys autograph book, drove a taxi at breakneck speed, and had a funny little moustache when he was a youth or whatever other silly excuse people like to use to make a point.

I think history WILL take note of what is happening in 2010 if only to show that there was a year where he was (I predict) beaten by a team mate.

#4753 Frans

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Posted 19 August 2010 - 13:36

Otherwise I will help history a little hand in that ..... :clap: :p

#4754 flyer121

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Posted 19 August 2010 - 14:31

In a short run he is tarnishing his reputation but on the long run he is not. After 50 years from now the history will only remember his WDC wins and his grand prix wins. How the history will grade his results also depends on how long his records will stay intact.



You are right in assuming that future generations are subject to rose-tinted effect where they only remember the good things and forget the drab ones.
But that only works for the sport as a whole IMO. Individual drivers are remembered on the spectacle they produce.
MS was spectacularly successful in his heyday but that simply made his 2010 season an even more spectacular failure.

Young F1 fans joining the bandwagon right about now will always wonder what the Schumi fuss was about and will pass the same feeling on to further generations - so you can rest assured that henceforth MS greatness will always be mentioned with the caveat of 2010.

Now if 50 years hence, someone (who previously never cared about F1 ) is doing a project on the "pinnacle of racing" in the early parts of the century - then possibly a casual look on Wikipedia will show that MS was a 7WDC with the logical assumption that he was "One of the Greats".
If that's what you are talking about.





#4755 man

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Posted 19 August 2010 - 15:15

In a short run he is tarnishing his reputation but on the long run he is not. After 50 years from now the history will only remember his WDC wins and his grand prix wins. How the history will grade his results also depends on how long his records will stay intact.



No I disagree. History reveals details. Mike Tyson was a champion yet he is renowned for his psychotic personality. F1 related - It is common knowledge that Jody Scheckter won the last WDC for Ferrari until 2000 and it is also fairly common knowledge that he had a horrid 1980 season.

Nelson Piquet is a three times world champion but history and common knowledge will note that he also showed little interest when he didn't have a WDC potential winning car.

History states Stirling Moss failed to win a WDC but today he commands more attention and respect than various championship winners combined.

However, I don't think 2010 has tarnished M Schumacher in anyway just as it has not portrayed him in a new light. The key aspects of his 2010 season are:

a) In a fair team environment, he has been outdriven by his teammate
b) His demented move on Barrichello at the Hungaroring.

That summarises his 2010 season in a nutshell. However, there has always been speculation about what he could acheive in a team environment focused on equality. And he has always been renowned for being careless when it comes to the safety of himself and other drivers. So nothing new has arisen from the 2010 season. Yes, it has probably given food for thought for those that did not or perhaps did not want to look at the circumstances he raced in before he retired. However both aspect a) and b) were well documented/speculated before 2006.

History is there for everybody to see...it is up to the individual how deep they want to look into it. Tricking the history books by concelaing the true contexts in which they took place is hardly a cause for a sense of satisfaction...though it may be for some. ;-)

Edited by man, 19 August 2010 - 15:19.


#4756 JackTorrance

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Posted 19 August 2010 - 17:34

1 swallow does not make a summer. Go back through the 2006 season. He had flashes but as many bad days.

If he were just a 'few tenths" that would be one thing. As for your last point....I am sure his die hard fans are OK seeing him drive around but I doubt he will be content with it past this year and I really doubt they will at Merc. Nascar does this but it does not last long in F1 where you are only as good as your last race regardless of how you did before. Just ask Piquet with 3 wdc and 3 wins in the previous 18 races for a team that had only won 6 ever who was pushed out of Benneton the year Schumacher arrived.


Id say Shumis 2006 summer was as good as anyone's. He had 11 podiums, 7 wins. Ended the year with 124 points in 2nd place, 13 behind Alonso and had some sterling drives, like finishing 5th after starting 22nd at Monaco. If we look at Piquets last season....he had one lucky win because 5 cars ahead of him dropped out for various reasons. Also i dispute him being kicked out. His contract wasnt renewed, thats all. He wasnt shoved aside like Roberto Moreno when Schumacher took his place.

And Im not a die hard fan, or maybe I am. But compared to Rosberg Schumacher isnt doing badly, had some weekends when he made Rosberg look slow and while some races he underperformed, others he was unlucky to not score points. When he was racing Alonso once green flags were being shown at Monaco for instance.

Still, Piquet had 24 wins and 17 poles? Schumacher has 91 wins, 68 poles. Seven world titles, 5 of them won in a row. That oughta buy him some slack. And with Brawn as team boss, and the noises Haug makes apparently it does.

Edited by JackTorrance, 19 August 2010 - 17:35.


#4757 JackTorrance

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Posted 19 August 2010 - 17:44

Can you give me some examples? I can't say that the presscoverage I've read is very negative about Schumacher. Are you perhaps mixing up reporting with op-ed articles and columns? A lot of 'disenchanted readers' tend to do that, in my experience...



What a strange comment. Are you suggesting that because he's given them plenty to write about in the past they should only write 'nice' things about him? Surely you want your journo's to report what is happening? Surely you, as an intelligent person, can see that Michael's performances in relation to Rosberg are worthy of talking about, or maybe you think every journo should qualify a 'Michael didn't make it to Q3 again' report by explaining that the cars not very good, he's been away for three years, he's 41, he's not happy with tyres, and we shouldn't really look too hard at his apprent lack of performance because, after all, he's a nice guy and he's given us fifteen years of good copy? The very fact that he IS a seven times world champion is what makes this seasons performances so notable; if he was Nick Heidfeld it wouldn't have been worthy of a mention. I must differ to you - I don't want fawning nonsense full of excuses but facts, and Michael isn't doing very well, is he?



I forgot his name, but one of those F1 journos that writes blogs had article headed by: shumi, retire now'. Ive read other denigrating comments. These are the same boys who turn a blind eye when Lewis does one of his kamikaze-like actions, or say: this is what we wan to see: battling drivers driving on the edge or what is acceptable! Double standards, as usually with some of the (British) press boys.



When Schumacher announced his retirement, many of his fans (and i suspect you are one), were running around various forums telling anyone that would listen that Schumacher was going to put all the young pretenders in their rightful place, etc. Then after a couple of races, that turned into "give him a couple of races to settle down", a couple of races after those couple of races it was "give him until half season to get used to the car, he's been out for three years". Now that's morphed into "wait until 2011 when the car will suit him and you will see the real Schumi".

Schumacher can battle for position, but unlike his first career, he's now battling to save his position, not gain one. I totally disagree that Schumacher isn't tarnishing his reputation.



Actually I wasnt. Id always suspected Ferrari and especially Red Bull would be the bench mark in 2010. As for tarnishing his reputation... I dread to think what your verdict is on Fisichella, putting a Force India on pole and 3 races later struggling to qualify better than P21 in a Ferrari. Face it, Rosberg overall is faster but not by a huge margin and not all the time.

Edited by JackTorrance, 19 August 2010 - 17:44.


#4758 britishtrident

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Posted 19 August 2010 - 17:58

snip

And Im not a die hard fan, or maybe I am. But compared to Rosberg Schumacher isnt doing badly, had some weekends when he made Rosberg look slow and while some races he underperformed, others he was unlucky to not score points. When he was racing Alonso once green flags were being shown at Monaco for instance.



He might have been racing Alonso but nobody told Alonso who doing what he was supposed to do and didn't know he was racing anyone --- it takes two to race. a mugging is very different from a boxing match.

The fact is Schumacher is a a very long way behind of Rosberg in the points tally, cold fact is Rosberg has been consistantly scoring points at almost three times the rate of Schumcher , --- if Schumacher was a rookie he would have been told his contract wasn't being renewed a few races back. Yes the car isn't as fast as it might be mainly because after Honda left Brawn had to lay off people put everything into the 2009 car, it wasn't Rosberg, Button or Barrachello influence. The aero is not good and it has some understeer. If Schumacher was half the driver everybody thought he was he could drive round the understeer and figure out how to make the tyres work for a full stint.


Every other all time top ten GP driver was renowned for driving anything and everything fast, Clark's legendary versatility has already been discussed but another example is Fangio, in South America he was racing huge pre WW2 american sedans in what were in effect long distance rallies , he came to Europe sat in a GP car for the first time and was immediately a winner.

#4759 aditya-now

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Posted 19 August 2010 - 18:15

Don't forget to mention to add Schumacher's sabotage on Kimi's Ferrari. :wave:


I see certain similarities in strategies that have been applied to Kimi´s races when he was in Ferrari and Michael on the Ferrari pitwall, and the strategies that are being applied to Michael (not Rosberg!) now that he is with Mercedes GP.

Could it be that the author of said strategies is one and the same person?


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#4760 aditya-now

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Posted 19 August 2010 - 18:16

And his black flags, and his disqualifications, and his lack of success in making a phoenix-like return in 2010. Same is true for all drivers. The only thing unlikely to have carried forward for 50 years is whether he signed a little boys autograph book, drove a taxi at breakneck speed, and had a funny little moustache when he was a youth or whatever other silly excuse people like to use to make a point.

I think history WILL take note of what is happening in 2010 if only to show that there was a year where he was (I predict) beaten by a team mate.


!!!

Post of the thread for me!
:up:



#4761 aditya-now

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Posted 19 August 2010 - 18:20

Now if 50 years hence, someone (who previously never cared about F1 ) is doing a project on the "pinnacle of racing" in the early parts of the century - then possibly a casual look on Wikipedia will show that MS was a 7WDC with the logical assumption that he was "One of the Greats".
If that's what you are talking about.


....assuming that there is still something called F1 in 50 years time. Who knows, maybe mankind will be past such spectacles by then?
And if not, what will the cars of 2060 look like?
Schumacher will be as well known or as little known then as Fangio is now to teens and twens.


#4762 ivand911

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Posted 19 August 2010 - 18:22

[/i],--- if Schumacher was a rookie he would have been told his contract wasn't being renewed a few races back.

The stupidest think I hear lately. HA HA HA If he was a rookie with 38 points ,he would have his contract renewed a few races back. First rookie is with 17 points now? And I think Michael will be with us in 2012 too, Americans want him for first American GP. What else they will show there. :rotfl: About 50 years from now, you remember what you see, if you don't see you will not remember. You just read statistics.

Edited by ivand911, 19 August 2010 - 18:28.


#4763 aditya-now

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Posted 19 August 2010 - 18:22

History states Stirling Moss failed to win a WDC but today he commands more attention and respect than various championship winners combined.


The name Stirling Moss definitely commands more respect and and attention than Mike Hawthorn, Denny Hulme, Jody Scheckter and Damon Hill, at least from my side of the fence.
So history is not so blind in making its judgements!


#4764 aditya-now

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Posted 19 August 2010 - 18:23

The stupidest think I hear lately. HA HA HA If he was a rookie with 38 points ,he would have his contract renewed a few races back. First rookie is with 17 points now?


In a Mercedes GP, the fourth car in the WCC?


#4765 ivand911

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Posted 19 August 2010 - 18:32

In a Mercedes GP, the fourth car in the WCC?

Fourth for now. And yes he still, would be the rookie with most points. Renault is not worst car , and still 17 points for Petrov. What is your point again? And two MGP drivers will be beaten next races. My opinion. Other cars improved much.

Edited by ivand911, 19 August 2010 - 18:35.


#4766 aditya-now

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Posted 19 August 2010 - 19:10

What is your point again?


My point again is that Schumi is a 7 time WDC and doing not much better than a rookie in an inferior car.


And two MGP drivers will be beaten next races. My opinion. Other cars improved much.


One MGP driver will surely be beaten badly in the next few races, guess who. Not because other cars improved so much.
Yet, I would not be so negative concerning Michael: Spa has always been Schumi´s classical track, his first win, some stellar drives, so it would be a pity if 2010 would show him past his glory even in Spa.

There is still hope.

#4767 slaveceru

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Posted 19 August 2010 - 19:14

And his black flags, and his disqualifications, and his lack of success in making a phoenix-like return in 2010. Same is true for all drivers. The only thing unlikely to have carried forward for 50 years is whether he signed a little boys autograph book, drove a taxi at breakneck speed, and had a funny little moustache when he was a youth or whatever other silly excuse people like to use to make a point.

I think history WILL take note of what is happening in 2010 if only to show that there was a year where he was (I predict) beaten by a team mate.

Are you so shore about this i do not think so because most of us that we are here will be death and new ones will not be interested in such a detail about Schumacher as it is now days? You can see how other legends from other sports with questionable reputation are evaluated in history mostly in positive way. One legend with the questionable reputation was also TY Cobb and jet he is regarded as one of the best players in baseball. Do you really think that in 50 years from now the people will remember how many times Schumacher was disqualified or how many times did he get the black flag they will not remember because there will be others new legends after him and new champions who will rewrite the F1 sport in a new way as each champion did in his era only thing that will remain are the wins and WDC how he has come to them it will be forgotten. Fangio drove 60 years ago do you know each detail about him like you know about Schumacher? If the answer is yes than you are in minority.

#4768 ivand911

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Posted 19 August 2010 - 19:14

My point again is that Schumi is a 7 time WDC and doing not much better than a rookie in an inferior car.




One MGP driver will surely be beaten badly in the next few races, guess who. Not because other cars improved so much.
Yet, I would not be so negative concerning Michael: Spa has always been Schumi´s classical track, his first win, some stellar drives, so it would be a pity if 2010 would show him past his glory even in Spa.

There is still hope.

Who need hope, it is enough Michael is here. Which car is inferior? Renault, try again. I think it is hard to understand ,but with this car you will not see stellar drive from Michael. I don't remember very inspiring drives from Nico too. This car is everything else, but inspiring. And if you remember he have 10 place penalty.

Edited by ivand911, 19 August 2010 - 19:22.


#4769 JustinCider

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Posted 19 August 2010 - 19:19

The stupidest think I hear lately. HA HA HA If he was a rookie with 38 points ,he would have his contract renewed a few races back. First rookie is with 17 points now? And I think Michael will be with us in 2012 too, Americans want him for first American GP. What else they will show there. :rotfl: About 50 years from now, you remember what you see, if you don't see you will not remember. You just read statistics.


Schumacher isn't a rookie. He has seven world titles to his name, something which his apologisers remind us of constantly when excusing his sub-par performances.

Do you have any statistics, quotes or figures to prove your 2012 American GP claims ?

#4770 slaveceru

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Posted 19 August 2010 - 19:26

The name Stirling Moss definitely commands more respect and and attention than Mike Hawthorn, Denny Hulme, Jody Scheckter and Damon Hill, at least from my side of the fence.
So history is not so blind in making its judgements!

:rotfl:
SO why you did not mentioned Fangio. Fangio is better rated in history thanStirling jet they drove in the same time? Are you once again bias in how the history generally evaluates drivers or is this just your opinion?

Edited by slaveceru, 19 August 2010 - 19:45.


#4771 man

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Posted 19 August 2010 - 19:31

Are you so shore about this i do not think so because most of us that we are here will be death and new ones will not be interested in such a detail about Schumacher as it is now days? You can see how other legends from other sports with questionable reputation are evaluated in history mostly in positive way. One legend with the questionable reputation was also TY Cobb and jet he is regarded as one of the best players in baseball. Do you really think that in 50 years from now the people will remember how many times Schumacher was disqualified or how many times did he get the black flag they will not remember because there will be others new legends after him and new champions who will rewrite the F1 sport in a new way as each champion did in his era only thing that will remain are the wins and WDC how he has come to them it will be forgotten. Fangio drove 60 years ago do you know each detail about him like you know about Schumacher? If the answer is yes than you are in minority.


What is your point with this rhetoric? You have a habit of going off on a tangent waffling about the bizarre.

Another thing, without trying to sound rude, do you think you could re-read your posts before clicking the "send button" because they are full of spelling/grammar errors which makes your posts very frustrating to read. A shame because sometimes I think you may have interesting points, but I give up after reading just a few words.

Try using paragraphs too - it may help.

ps I know i'm the last who should complain as I often post through a mobile device and only notice my mistakes afterwards. :blush:

Edited by man, 19 August 2010 - 19:34.


#4772 ivand911

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Posted 19 August 2010 - 19:33

Schumacher isn't a rookie. He has seven world titles to his name, something which his apologisers remind us of constantly when excusing his sub-par performances.

Do you have any statistics, quotes or figures to prove your 2012 American GP claims ?

Hello, non apologiser ,we have a lot like you here. About American GP , Michael say he was invited to give some advises for new track. And this make me said what I said. What trigger you , that he will be here in 2012 or that Americans want him there. Let me think who is the biggest name for them in F1? No, now I think they will not want him in their first race. :) I just remember that Americans don't like big show.

Edited by ivand911, 19 August 2010 - 19:33.


#4773 slaveceru

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Posted 19 August 2010 - 19:45

What is your point with this rhetoric? You have a habit of going off on a tangent waffling about the bizarre.

Another thing, without trying to sound rude, do you think you could re-read your posts before clicking the "send button" because they are full of spelling/grammar errors which makes your posts very frustrating to read. A shame because sometimes I think you may have interesting points, but I give up after reading just a few words.

Try using paragraphs too - it may help.

ps I know i'm the last who should complain as I often post through a mobile device and only notice my mistakes afterwards. :blush:


I apologies but my mother language is not English. Here is the short version of my observation about history. History only worship the winners how they have come to victory it does not matter. So whatever you say about Schumacher how his reputation is destroyed in the eye of the history it is just wishful thinking.

#4774 JustinCider

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Posted 19 August 2010 - 20:18

Hello, non apologiser ,we have a lot like you here. About American GP , Michael say he was invited to give some advises for new track. And this make me said what I said. What trigger you , that he will be here in 2012 or that Americans want him there. Let me think who is the biggest name for them in F1? No, now I think they will not want him in their first race. :) I just remember that Americans don't like big show.


Schumacher has advised Herman Tilke in the past regarding designs of certain corners at GP circuits, they still have survived since his first retirement in 2006. No big news there, it just means that the people building the track are using their good sense to employ the mind of an incredibly successull racing driver to aid them in their persuit to design a brilliant showpeice circuit. Also, if i'm not wrong i think Schumacher was not the only driver to visit the new venue for the US GP, either. I don't personally care if Schumacher is on the 2012 grid, or who wants to see him - as long as we get a good season of racing, that is all that matters, no matter who's racing.

Drivers come and go - F1 is here to stay.

#4775 aditya-now

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Posted 19 August 2010 - 21:00

:rotfl:
SO why you did not mentioned Fangio. Fangio is better rated in history thanStirling jet they drove in the same time? Are you once again bias in how the history generally evaluates drivers or is this just your opinion?


Not at all, the point was that even a non-WDC like Sir Stirling can be regarded better than some one-time WDCs like the ones I have mentioned. I don´t know where you hail from and how old you are, but you will find enormous respect in the racing community for Moss. Has nothing to do with bias.

In the same way, Michael may not find the respect 7 WDCs in themselves would guarantee, as there are other factors to his career, as Buttoneer has so eloquently enumerated. These things again have nothing to do with bias - Michael has brought them unto himself by his own doing.


#4776 aditya-now

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Posted 19 August 2010 - 21:06

Fangio drove 60 years ago do you know each detail about him like you know about Schumacher? If the answer is yes than you are in minority.


Fangio was a man of honour, a gentleman on and off the track, and that is how he is being remembered.
Schumacher, while statistically the best of them all, had his other sides, and these other sides were big enough to be remembered.

It is not the details of Fangio´s chivalry, but the total impression of him as a driver with great integrity that will be remembered. It will not be the details of Michael´s misdeeds, but the total impression of him wanting to win at all costs, and going where no one had gone before, that will be remembered.


#4777 Buttoneer

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Posted 19 August 2010 - 23:35

I apologies but my mother language is not English. Here is the short version of my observation about history. History only worship the winners how they have come to victory it does not matter. So whatever you say about Schumacher how his reputation is destroyed in the eye of the history it is just wishful thinking.

I did read your first post but I've chosen to quote this one for ease really.

My point was not to have a bash at Schumacher, only to point out that in 50 years time the history books will more than likely show the bad with the good.

If you want to write the very briefest of sentences about Schumacher, then you will refer to him as '7x WDC Michael Schumacher' and that's it, job done.

If you write a paragraph, you'll add some other words like 'controversial' as well as 'brilliant' and have a final sentence about his 'failed comeback' (and I know this has yet to be shown, but bear with me).

If you start to write beyond a single paragraph then of course Adelaide and Jerez will be mentioned, maybe the Barrichello thing for Hungary might be forgotten but Rassecasse will not, nor will Austria 2002. Car reliability will be in there as well as the professionalism he has brought to the sport and his four-pitstop achievement. 2010 will be mentioned because Nico has beaten him and, well, that's remarkable. I didn't expect that.

So the more detail you do into, the more there will be to say in order to caveat and put his performances into perspective.

What these history books will not show is all the silly stuff we talk about here and which winds so many people up - the Brokeback Mountain chic, his great charity work, stealing Frentzens woman, and refusing autographs.

You use the word 'worship' and of course a book designed to worship him will certainly have none of the bad stuff, but one which is trying to be objective must surely mention it even if the conclusion is still that he is the greatest who ever lived.

#4778 arknor

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Posted 20 August 2010 - 02:19

It will not be the details of Michael´s misdeeds, but the total impression of him wanting to win at all costs, and going where no one had gone before, that will be remembered.

senna was no angel yet most people like to forget that.

maybe in time it will be the same with schumacher or does he have to die in a race?

#4779 SparkPlug

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Posted 20 August 2010 - 02:33

And his black flags, and his disqualifications, and his lack of success in making a phoenix-like return in 2010. Same is true for all drivers. The only thing unlikely to have carried forward for 50 years is whether he signed a little boys autograph book, drove a taxi at breakneck speed, and had a funny little moustache when he was a youth or whatever other silly excuse people like to use to make a point.

I think history WILL take note of what is happening in 2010 if only to show that there was a year where he was (I predict) beaten by a team mate.

Its quite surprising you say this, especially when you see the "god like" status people tend to give Ayrton Senna these days. Do too many people remember all his acts of unsporting behaviour ? And this phenomenon (of completely ignoring Senna's multiple incidents of unsporting behaviour and proclaiming him as a fair driver) started as far back as 2003-2004 as far as I can remember. Within 10 years of MS's retirement I see the same happening there as well. The public has a short memory, all they remember later is what the driver has achieved, and what sterling performances he put in in his first career and not what some people here like to believe.

Edited by SparkPlug, 20 August 2010 - 02:34.


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#4780 SparkPlug

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Posted 20 August 2010 - 02:37

What is your point with this rhetoric? You have a habit of going off on a tangent waffling about the bizarre.
.
.
.
. A shame because sometimes I think you may have interesting points, but I give up after reading just a few words.

Lol look whose talking :rotfl: Ever thought that your single minded pursuit on this forum may be causing others to have the same views about your posts ?

#4781 Muz Bee

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Posted 20 August 2010 - 03:01

senna was no angel yet most people like to forget that.

maybe in time it will be the same with schumacher or does he have to die in a race?

Speak for yourself! My disgust for Senna's dangerous and unsporting driving (it CHANGED the sport I used to really love) dominate his place in history in my mind. His sanstimonious God talk used to make me sick about his ego. I stopped watching F1 after some of his stunts and it was Schumacher who (ironically) drew me back to F1. His incidents with Hill were bad enough but when Michael went to Ferrari I believed this would start a glorious era in F1. And it almost did, except his inclusion of tactics from the Ayrton Senna coaching manual "anything goes if you can get away with it" were A LITTLE DISAPPOINTING for those of us who still believe in life, business and sport enjoying fair play goes without saying.

I expected Michael to have the upper hand on Nico this year but I have to say I'm actually quite cheerful he is getting his butt kicked. I hope he comes back for another year of it too because it is not for no reason that he is the driver of the 2000s that people love to hate. It's good for a human being to sometimes be on the receiving end so having to let Nico take his place at some point would be poetic justice. Trouble is he just isn't quick eniugh, often enough, or in WDC potential car for that to be all that likely. Adversity is character building Mikey. :wave:

Edited by Muz Bee, 20 August 2010 - 03:02.


#4782 Muz Bee

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Posted 20 August 2010 - 03:07

Buttoneer's last post sums it up rather well for neutral observors of F1.

Warts and all, is how the history books will record M Schumacher. There's certainly plenty of both sides to make a giant of a book, but please, don't give us one of those dewey, romantic novels that gloss over the inconveniently horrible bits. Hungary 2010 was the most dangerous of his sporting misdemeanours, let's not forget, and all in a squabble over, was it 1 point? Cheap shot at best. And in a season where he failed to look like a winner of any description, but we await Spa with hopes of a majestic return to glory.

Edited by Muz Bee, 20 August 2010 - 03:09.


#4783 slaveceru

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Posted 20 August 2010 - 04:07

I did read your first post but I've chosen to quote this one for ease really.

My point was not to have a bash at Schumacher, only to point out that in 50 years time the history books will more than likely show the bad with the good.

If you want to write the very briefest of sentences about Schumacher, then you will refer to him as '7x WDC Michael Schumacher' and that's it, job done.

If you write a paragraph, you'll add some other words like 'controversial' as well as 'brilliant' and have a final sentence about his 'failed comeback' (and I know this has yet to be shown, but bear with me).

If you start to write beyond a single paragraph then of course Adelaide and Jerez will be mentioned, maybe the Barrichello thing for Hungary might be forgotten but Rassecasse will not, nor will Austria 2002. Car reliability will be in there as well as the professionalism he has brought to the sport and his four-pitstop achievement. 2010 will be mentioned because Nico has beaten him and, well, that's remarkable. I didn't expect that.

So the more detail you do into, the more there will be to say in order to caveat and put his performances into perspective.

What these history books will not show is all the silly stuff we talk about here and which winds so many people up - the Brokeback Mountain chic, his great charity work, stealing Frentzens woman, and refusing autographs.

You use the word 'worship' and of course a book designed to worship him will certainly have none of the bad stuff, but one which is trying to be objective must surely mention it even if the conclusion is still that he is the greatest who ever lived.

History generally worship the winners because people write about history and it is in human nature to worship winner they will probably find some bad staff about him if they will be interested in him in details but I do not think that majority of people who will watch F1 50 years from now will be so much interested in Schumacher at all because there will be new legends. 100 years from now it is possible that Schumacher will be completely forgotten as many other legends in the history of f1 racing. This is how history works.

So how it is possible than to say that Schumacher has tarnished his reputation in just one year in the eye of the history if there is a probability that history will not give a crap about this year performance from him in F1.

Edited by slaveceru, 20 August 2010 - 04:10.


#4784 aditya-now

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Posted 20 August 2010 - 06:11

The public has a short memory, all they remember later is what the driver has achieved, and what sterling performances he put in in his first career and not what some people here like to believe.


Wait an see. Contrary to Senna, Schumacher's reputation is quite tarnished already. Michael did it too often, over a too long period of time, getting too many public reactions. Add to that a sub-optimal comeback (of course, a successful 2011/2012 will be able to salvage Michael) and Schumacher will be looking at a very different memory the public has about him than about Senna.

Mind you, "the public" is not people here on the BB.

#4785 aditya-now

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Posted 20 August 2010 - 06:15

but please, don't give us one of those dewey, romantic novels that gloss over the inconveniently horrible bits.


Don't worry, Muz Bee, Sean Valen will take care of that in his next post...


#4786 aditya-now

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Posted 20 August 2010 - 06:34

History generally worship the winners because people write about history and it is in human nature to worship winner they will probably find some bad staff about him if they will be interested in him in details but I do not think that majority of people who will watch F1 50 years from now will be so much interested in Schumacher at all because there will be new legends. 100 years from now it is possible that Schumacher will be completely forgotten as many other legends in the history of f1 racing. This is how history works.

So how it is possible than to say that Schumacher has tarnished his reputation in just one year in the eye of the history if there is a probability that history will not give a crap about this year performance from him in F1.


History records glorious winners as well as villains. Thus Ben Johnson ring a bell to you? Or Lance Armstrong (in a few year's time, his myth is just being unravelled)?
Even his wikipedia entry has a second title: "allegations of drug use".

His comeback was a golden chance for Michael to turn the tables - even I was willing to believe that we will see a more mellow, more gracious and more human Michael, at the same time still driving spectacularly. You are always willing to give someone the benefit of the doubt. Look what has Michael made of it! The performance is lack-lustre, and to top it off he produced the Hungaroring 2010 maneuvre with Barrichello. It did not stand him in good stead. The tiger has lost his teeth, but not his stripes.

So how do you think history will view Schumacher? Not as critical as I paint it here, but not as glorious as you would like to think. Wait and see. Most of us will be here in 30 year's time to witness - the sport then may look upon this period in history as a period of great un-sportsmanship, take all the Johnsons, Armstrongs, Sennas and Schumachers as typical proponents.

Driving-wise, as SparkPlug has me on record, Michael will always be remembered being the # 2 to Ayrton Senna. All the polls, particularily the polls among drivers themselves, that continue to put Ayrton at #1 and Michael at #2 at best will take care of that.

#4787 ivand911

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Posted 20 August 2010 - 06:37

Fangio was a man of honour, a gentleman on and off the track, and that is how he is being remembered.

Are you sure about that? You see all his races? Or you just hear things? If he was racing now there would be long threads about him too. I think that is how all will think about Michael after 50 years. Because nobody will happen to see one race of him. Or maybe push to the wall will be part of the game then(after 50 years), and they will say MS who invented this move, The man with who the real F1 started? All other drivers will be considered too soft(not to say other word) for their taste. :clap:
About polls who care where they put Michael? It is important where I put him, everything else is so irrelevant. :) Polls, you make my day. :rotfl:

Edited by ivand911, 20 August 2010 - 06:48.


#4788 aditya-now

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Posted 20 August 2010 - 06:47

Are you sure about that? You see all his races? Or you just hear things? I think that is how all will think about Michael after 50 years. Because nobody will happen to see one race of him. Or maybe push to the wall will be part of the game then, and they will say MS who invented this move, The man with who real F1 started? All other drivers will be considered to soft(not to say other word) for their taste. :clap:


I am sure about that, and, team strategy aside (Fangio's number 2s would surrender the car to him out of respect, not being forced by team orders - at least that's what remains as a public memory 53 years later), his general driving record is immaculate.

Why do you think Juan Manuel gets so much respect from the drivers of his generation as well as from drivers of generations that follow?
He is the grand old man of F1.

Why do you think the peers of Michael Schumacher see him rather critical, see him as the statistically most successful, but also most dirty driver there is? Because they themselves experienced it with Michael on the track. You have to look no further than to the driver polls of who was the F1 best driver. At least in his generation Michael does not have too many fans left, and that judgement from his peers will further itself down the stream of history, just as the judgement on Juan Manuel Fangio and his honorability has furthered itself down the sweep of decades...


#4789 ivand911

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Posted 20 August 2010 - 06:57

Fangio's number 2s would surrender the car to him out of respect, not being forced by team orders - at least that's what remains as a public memory 53 years later), his general driving record is immaculate.

My advise ,stop here before you tarnish the old guy reputation? I am sure Massa also respects Alonso. And why we discuss old guys in this thread?


#4790 aditya-now

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Posted 20 August 2010 - 07:01

My advise ,stop here before you tarnish the old guy reputation? I am sure Massa also respects Alonso. And why we discuss old guys in this thread?


You are not in the position to give advices, Ivan, and the incident is well known. It says tons about Fangio's reputation among the other drivers of his times. But neither has Rubens ever surrendered willingly to Michael nor Felipe to Fernando.

It was a different time back then, a time of gentleman racers and code of honor.

#4791 Lifew12

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Posted 20 August 2010 - 07:22

I forgot his name, but one of those F1 journos that writes blogs had article headed by: shumi, retire now'. Ive read other denigrating comments. These are the same boys who turn a blind eye when Lewis does one of his kamikaze-like actions, or say: this is what we wan to see: battling drivers driving on the edge or what is acceptable! Double standards, as usually with some of the (British) press boys.


Aaaah, of course - you mean BRITISH journo's! I forgot it was only BRITISH journo's who dare to write anything denigrating about your hero! Of course, the German journo's are all banging on about how good he is, aren't they, despite him being comprehensively trounced by a countryman with less than half his experience?

A blog - by its very nature - is the opinion of the writer; blogs don't tend to rely on the facts, they offer a personal insight and attitude. If, of course, you think that nobody can possibly say anything nasty about Michael Schumacher because he has won seven world titles and 91 GP's then that's fair enough - I am sure there will be blogs out there that suit your needs. If not, start one yourself - it's free! Me, as an interested reader, I can clearly see that Michael coming back and looking, frequently, awful is something that has to be reported. I would rather read 'Michael was beaten by Rosberg again' etc than 'Michael Schumacher, seven times world champion and 91 race winner, put in a tremendous performance from 14th on the grid and was absolutely the class of the field to finish 9th' wouldn't you?

Has it crossed your mind that not everyone worships him the way you do?










#4792 ivand911

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Posted 20 August 2010 - 07:22

But neither has Rubens ever surrendered willingly to Michael nor Felipe to Fernando.
It was a different time back then, a time of gentleman racers and code of honor.

In Michael case there wasn't rule against it, and he didn't initiated it(as opposed in Alonso case). About last part it is very funny. They throw their knights clothes and swords and get in the cars.

Edited by ivand911, 20 August 2010 - 07:23.


#4793 Slartibartfast

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Posted 20 August 2010 - 07:24

senna was no angel yet most people like to forget that.

maybe in time it will be the same with schumacher or does he have to die in a race?

Its quite surprising you say this, especially when you see the "god like" status people tend to give Ayrton Senna these days. Do too many people remember all his acts of unsporting behaviour ? And this phenomenon (of completely ignoring Senna's multiple incidents of unsporting behaviour and proclaiming him as a fair driver) started as far back as 2003-2004 as far as I can remember. Within 10 years of MS's retirement I see the same happening there as well. The public has a short memory, all they remember later is what the driver has achieved, and what sterling performances he put in in his first career and not what some people here like to believe.


Since Senna's bad behaviour has been mentioned by two posts on one page, it seems that not everyone has forgotten. Why should that be different for Schumacher?

#4794 Lifew12

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Posted 20 August 2010 - 07:25

and they will say MS who invented this move, The man with who the real F1 started?


I know English is not your first language, Ivan, so with respect, are you suggesting that 'real F1' started with Michael, or are you suggesting that this will be how things are viewed in, say, fifty years?


#4795 ivand911

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Posted 20 August 2010 - 07:28

I know English is not your first language, Ivan, so with respect, are you suggesting that 'real F1' started with Michael, or are you suggesting that this will be how things are viewed in, say, fifty years?

Yes ,how the people in 50 years could view it, if to putt someone in the wall is something very usual for F1 after 50 years. He could be number one in every "poll" in 50 years? And something tell me he have big chance for this. Very big. Biggest. If you understand what I mean. 7 :cool:

Edited by ivand911, 20 August 2010 - 07:38.


#4796 Lifew12

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Posted 20 August 2010 - 07:42

Yes ,how the people in 50 years could view it, if to putt someone in the wall is something very usual for F1 after 50 years. He could be number one in every "poll" in 50 years? And something tell me he have big chance for this. Very big. Biggest. If you understand what I mean. 7 :cool:


Thanks, I thought that was what you meant. I doubt, however, that he'll be the only seven times champion in 50 years time.

#4797 ivand911

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Posted 20 August 2010 - 07:50

Thanks, I thought that was what you meant. I doubt, however, that he'll be the only seven times champion in 50 years time.

Or maybe to be first in the "polls" after 50 year, you don't need to be 7WDC. You just need to be 12 year old,1WDC and you to be very good when driving your Jet F1 car on 3d track? Who knows? This will make even Vettel and Lewis look old. We would be happy if we find in top 10, one familiar name. Fangio around top 30.

Edited by ivand911, 20 August 2010 - 07:57.


#4798 Lifew12

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Posted 20 August 2010 - 07:55

Or maybe to be first in the "polls" after 50 year, you don't need to be 7WDC. You just need to be 12 year old,1WDC and you to be very good when driving your Jet F1 car on 3d track? Who knows? This will make even Vettel and Lewis look old.


True, but it's telling that in any poll of 'all time greats' taking place now you will still find Fangio, Clark et al in the top few. personally, while Michael would appear in my top ten, it wouldn;t be near the top.

#4799 as65p

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Posted 20 August 2010 - 07:57

Its quite surprising you say this, especially when you see the "god like" status people tend to give Ayrton Senna these days. Do too many people remember all his acts of unsporting behaviour ? And this phenomenon (of completely ignoring Senna's multiple incidents of unsporting behaviour and proclaiming him as a fair driver) started as far back as 2003-2004 as far as I can remember. Within 10 years of MS's retirement I see the same happening there as well. The public has a short memory, all they remember later is what the driver has achieved, and what sterling performances he put in in his first career and not what some people here like to believe.


The one constant in every Schumacher discussion I ever read is the insurpressible urge of his supporters to talk about Senna.

Strange... :drunk: :p

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#4800 aditya-now

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Posted 20 August 2010 - 08:02

The one constant in every Schumacher discussion I ever read is the insurpressible urge of his supporters to talk about Senna.

Strange... :drunk: :p


Not strange, given that Michael had Senna as his hero. Remember Michael breaking down in the PC after he equalled Senna´s record of 41 GP wins?