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#4751 man

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Posted 18 August 2010 - 19:49

Without him in those 3 years, F1 just wasnt the same.


:up: Agreed.

F1 was a lot cleaner.


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#4752 merschu

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Posted 18 August 2010 - 20:09

Yeah with the spy-scandal, Singapore Crashgate, Max Mosley sex scandal,Lewis lying in Melbourne, F1 was so clean during this three years!

I guess Michael was thinking why didn't Flavio think something like the crash-gate for me during my time with Benetton!? :mad: :p

Edited by merschu, 18 August 2010 - 20:10.


#4753 man

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Posted 18 August 2010 - 20:22

Yeah with the spy-scandal, Singapore Crashgate, Max Mosley sex scandal,Lewis lying in Melbourne, F1 was so clean during this three years!

I guess Michael was thinking why didn't Flavio think something like the crash-gate for me during my time with Benetton!? :mad: :p


:up:

Though i'm sure the Barrichello family would take a bit of tabloid sex scandals, spying and the rest of it over being forced towards a wall at whatever mph anyday of the week. ;-)

#4754 chrisblades85

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Posted 18 August 2010 - 20:56

:up:

Though i'm sure the Barrichello family would take a bit of tabloid sex scandals, spying and the rest of it over being forced towards a wall at whatever mph anyday of the week. ;-)



Because no other driver ever has forced someone off the track before have they?

Don't get me wrong, the move was out of order and plain stupid. But don't pretend he's the only person ever to have made a move like that.

Anyway Schumacher to be World Champion 2011. I don't care what anyone else thinks (unless they think the same) This is nailed on. :confused: :lol: :eek:

#4755 Raelene

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Posted 18 August 2010 - 21:29

:up:

Though i'm sure the Barrichello family would take a bit of tabloid sex scandals, spying and the rest of it over being forced towards a wall at whatever mph anyday of the week. ;-)



Yes, I'm sure Rubens would love a sex scandal - something that would do damage to his marriage, over something that no damage was done :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

#4756 baddog

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Posted 18 August 2010 - 22:10

:up: Agreed.

F1 was a lot cleaner.

F1 had probably its dirtiest years of all. But you didnt even notice?

Wow. One eyed at all?

#4757 SeanValen

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Posted 18 August 2010 - 22:47

Surely Michael's fifteen years in a variety of different cars at least gives you some idea of his ability? I would say that Rosberg has looked pretty good this year - as quick as he can be in the car, generally error free and going about his job without any fuss.


Michae's ability this year though is a puzzle, were not talking about Michae's first career, Massa had a accident last year and was out for races, whether or not that contributed to his offkey races this year who knows, or was it the rules/car/combination/or everything, Michael's been out 3 years, so who knows where's at, where he's going, what's going on, behind the scenes, he and Brawn seem upbeat about 2011, have been talking about it for a while now, clearly this Jenson Button designed car is not in harmony with MS this year, without testing, making a comeback, it's all guesswork, none of us posters know anything more which is why I'm not jumping to conclusions and judging Nico and Michael this year, I can wait, while others can let this season brainwash them.


The posters who post in this thread are not always going to agree, I think I'm right, they think their right, it's a Schumacher thread, 1000 plus posts, the legend is back, the forum is alive, everyone has something to talk about, and it'll go on and on and on.



The cars/tyres basically change every year but the best drivers adapt and dont miss a beat, i don't buy this MS is not being able to drive at his normal standard. MS is no longer the standard in F1, Lewis and Alonso are, and i think he also would struggle against the likes of Vettel and Kubica.


Maybe your forgetting he's been away for 3 years, Massa challenged for the title in 2008 and missed it by inch, he had a accident last year, missed races, and has been strangely off the pace this year, and he hasn't been away 3 years, as a retired driver returning back into modern f1, Michael stands alone and can't be compared with other drivers just yet, until we see a Michael who is happy with the car and is extracting his oversteer style for all to see in the laptimes, and then if he's still not performing, he'll walk away because he is his own best critic. This is a man who devoted 125% of his life to winning, making sacifices, testing overtime, he pushed the boundaries, now the sport has changed, the testing aspect has gone, the team have alot to do with MS's performance, and in his first year back of a 3 year contract, it's silly to make judgement especially with a car that wasn't born well, and we all know how important a car is for tyre performance. It's a combination of factors.


Alonso wasn't the standard in 2009 and 2008, alot had to do with the car and his own attitude and he's not even retired and coming back like MS, like I said earlier, returning to f1 is a different ballgame, the real truth is, everyone is scared that MS is going to win again, it's about putting down someone enchanching their achievements by one more step, surely a 8th title, after set backs, and critics putting you down, and with a 3rd team, Mercedes, which got him into f1, would be one of his finest titles against a 3rd generation of rivals, his 3rd decade of racing, it's this prospect, that MS is on the verge and or has the chance to achieve that many can't fanhom, that because this first year hasn't gone too plan, that perhaps wishing him away maybe it'll stop him from achieving anything, seeing is believing, until he does, no one will understand what he went through this year, Michael has to win again, even Jenson Button said that, given what he's achieved and how proud he is of his abilities/name in the sport, how badly he will fight for any point, it's almost silly and reckless to write him off. He had nothing to prove when he retired, but by coming back, he's perhaps found more reasons to fight harder when the opportunities come then he could of pre-envisoned, given his success, no one needs a podium more then that man, or win, or title, he is the hungariest driver out there, you gotta at least respect that and admire the ambition, where there is a will, there is a way.

Alot of people will be eating their words and going silent when he does perform. It's like after 3 years, alot of people miss hating him as much as miss seeing him drive=1000 plus posts easy!

MS, whenever he comes out of the pits, you expect something near great, I completely understand the battering he's taken this year, and it's bascially down to a misunderstanding of his issues against his own legend/hype/expectations, he's a winner, it's not a regular occurance to see him struggeling in a car, only time will tell whether he gets anything near the expectations we have for him, the best time to bash MS is after 2011, because even he has talked up 2011 so much, that if he hasn't improved by then, then your post can carry a bit more weight. It doesn't matter how many races he's done this year, he's been imprisoned in a car that has taken him by surprise, a bad dose of badlluck returning to f1 in this season, with this year and no testing perhaps, surely he expected better and we did as well, we'l see, since he's been so successful in the past, we haven't seen these issues before, it's a different era, wait and watch.




Edited by SeanValen, 18 August 2010 - 23:26.


#4758 JackTorrance

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Posted 18 August 2010 - 23:52

I completely understand the battering he's taken this year,



I dont in regards to the media. For years theyve made a lot of money writing about him, speculating on his retirement as far back as 2004. When he did finally retire they had noone to write about. When he did announce his return nobody could mention enough how great it was to have a 7 times world champion back on the grid. Its disgusting to see some of the things some 'journos' write about him. A total lack of respect and manners imo.



#4759 flyer121

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Posted 19 August 2010 - 01:00

Michae's ability this year though is a puzzle, were not talking about Michae's first career, Massa had a accident last year and was out for races, whether or not that contributed to his offkey races this year who knows, or was it the rules/car/combination/or everything, Michael's been out 3 years, so who knows where's at, where he's going, what's going on, behind the scenes, he and Brawn seem upbeat about 2011, have been talking about it for a while now, clearly this Jenson Button designed car is not in harmony with MS this year, without testing, making a comeback, it's all guesswork, none of us posters know anything more which is why I'm not jumping to conclusions and judging Nico and Michael this year, I can wait, while others can let this season brainwash them.
///
///
MS, whenever he comes out of the pits, you expect something near great, I completely understand the battering he's taken this year, and it's bascially down to a misunderstanding of his issues against his own legend/hype/expectations, he's a winner, it's not a regular occurance to see him struggeling in a car, only time will tell whether he gets anything near the expectations we have for him, the best time to bash MS is after 2011, because even he has talked up 2011 so much, that if he hasn't improved by then, then your post can carry a bit more weight. It doesn't matter how many races he's done this year, he's been imprisoned in a car that has taken him by surprise, a bad dose of badlluck returning to f1 in this season, with this year and no testing perhaps, surely he expected better and we did as well, we'l see, since he's been so successful in the past, we haven't seen these issues before, it's a different era, wait and watch.


Wow ,,,, that is some heavy fanspeak ! :up:

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#4760 jimm

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Posted 19 August 2010 - 03:13

Signs of him losing his edge? I thought his last race of 2006 was testament on how great a driver he still was. It was one of the greatest drives of the season.
And he was out for 3 years with lots of testing restrictions (lets say it is banned completely) id say he does a more than reasonable job being a few tenths off Rosbergs times. Just look how Fisichella and Badoer fared last year. He also showed he can still battle as good as anyone, as we saw in Melbourne with Alguersuari.

Anyway, as far as im concerned he can drive in last place in each and every race he wants to compete. He had so many great races, he has such a long list of championships that nothing will ever make him look lesser. Its just great to see the legend back in F1. Without him in those 3 years, F1 just wasnt the same.



1 swallow does not make a summer. Go back through the 2006 season. He had flashes but as many bad days.

If he were just a 'few tenths" that would be one thing. As for your last point....I am sure his die hard fans are OK seeing him drive around but I doubt he will be content with it past this year and I really doubt they will at Merc. Nascar does this but it does not last long in F1 where you are only as good as your last race regardless of how you did before. Just ask Piquet with 3 wdc and 3 wins in the previous 18 races for a team that had only won 6 ever who was pushed out of Benneton the year Schumacher arrived.

#4761 black magic

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Posted 19 August 2010 - 07:21

not a bad career not withstanding no?

won his first race what 1992 and challenging still for a championship 2006 incl races like china and brazil

during that period only 3 - 4 seasons when he wasnt in championship contention.

I'd say whatever criteria you care to name that stands as a legendary career

any other driver produce the goods over such a length of time - and I'll concede from teh outset that michael 2006 was not quite the michael of say 96

just in case you are struggling you can add 1991 when he first arrived, and his last race in 2006 - people still talk of his perfromance in those race weekends. pretty impressive whatever way you slice or dice it.

I'd settle for a career with a fraction of his highs - guys like coulthard/ brundle might be nice chaps but sorry they werent even in the same league.

#4762 Chezrome

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Posted 19 August 2010 - 08:23

I dont in regards to the media. For years theyve made a lot of money writing about him, speculating on his retirement as far back as 2004. When he did finally retire they had noone to write about. When he did announce his return nobody could mention enough how great it was to have a 7 times world champion back on the grid. Its disgusting to see some of the things some 'journos' write about him. A total lack of respect and manners imo.


Can you give me some examples? I can't say that the presscoverage I've read is very negative about Schumacher. Are you perhaps mixing up reporting with op-ed articles and columns? A lot of 'disenchanted readers' tend to do that, in my experience...

#4763 Frans

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Posted 19 August 2010 - 08:52

Yeah with the spy-scandal, Singapore Crashgate, Max Mosley sex scandal,Lewis lying in Melbourne, F1 was so clean during this three years!


Don't forget to mention to add Schumacher's sabotage on Kimi's Ferrari. :wave:

#4764 Lifew12

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Posted 19 August 2010 - 09:04

I dont in regards to the media. For years theyve made a lot of money writing about him, speculating on his retirement as far back as 2004. When he did finally retire they had noone to write about. When he did announce his return nobody could mention enough how great it was to have a 7 times world champion back on the grid. Its disgusting to see some of the things some 'journos' write about him. A total lack of respect and manners imo.


What a strange comment. Are you suggesting that because he's given them plenty to write about in the past they should only write 'nice' things about him? Surely you want your journo's to report what is happening? Surely you, as an intelligent person, can see that Michael's performances in relation to Rosberg are worthy of talking about, or maybe you think every journo should qualify a 'Michael didn't make it to Q3 again' report by explaining that the cars not very good, he's been away for three years, he's 41, he's not happy with tyres, and we shouldn't really look too hard at his apprent lack of performance because, after all, he's a nice guy and he's given us fifteen years of good copy? The very fact that he IS a seven times world champion is what makes this seasons performances so notable; if he was Nick Heidfeld it wouldn't have been worthy of a mention. I must differ to you - I don't want fawning nonsense full of excuses but facts, and Michael isn't doing very well, is he?

Edited by Lifew12, 19 August 2010 - 09:05.


#4765 JustinCider

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Posted 19 August 2010 - 09:56

Signs of him losing his edge? I thought his last race of 2006 was testament on how great a driver he still was. It was one of the greatest drives of the season.
And he was out for 3 years with lots of testing restrictions (lets say it is banned completely) id say he does a more than reasonable job being a few tenths off Rosbergs times. Just look how Fisichella and Badoer fared last year. He also showed he can still battle as good as anyone, as we saw in Melbourne with Alguersuari.

Anyway, as far as im concerned he can drive in last place in each and every race he wants to compete. He had so many great races, he has such a long list of championships that nothing will ever make him look lesser. Its just great to see the legend back in F1. Without him in those 3 years, F1 just wasnt the same.


When Schumacher announced his retirement, many of his fans (and i suspect you are one), were running around various forums telling anyone that would listen that Schumacher was going to put all the young pretenders in their rightful place, etc. Then after a couple of races, that turned into "give him a couple of races to settle down", a couple of races after those couple of races it was "give him until half season to get used to the car, he's been out for three years". Now that's morphed into "wait until 2011 when the car will suit him and you will see the real Schumi".

Schumacher can battle for position, but unlike his first career, he's now battling to save his position, not gain one. I totally disagree that Schumacher isn't tarnishing his reputation. What happened to the man who could drive around a car's weaknesses, put an inferior car in places it should not be, whilst at the same time demolishing his teammate and putting them in their place. I see no signs of that man in 2010.

So if he hasn't lost it, exactly where is his edge ? He needs to find it soon, or questions will always remain about how much of his success was down to the team / car, and not just the man himself. If Schuamcher wants to keep his legacy intact he needs to improve quickly. I think if it were not for his previous glory (and PR), he would be struggling to retain his seat for the remainder of this season, let alone 2011.

Edited by JustinCider, 19 August 2010 - 10:03.


#4766 flyer121

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Posted 19 August 2010 - 10:13

at this rate the thread will soon be debating on wether schumachers sperm cheated inside his mothers womb to reach the egg first and wether he rammed another sperm into the wall :rotfl:


Did it?;) :)

#4767 slaveceru

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Posted 19 August 2010 - 13:15

When Schumacher announced his retirement, many of his fans (and i suspect you are one), were running around various forums telling anyone that would listen that Schumacher was going to put all the young pretenders in their rightful place, etc. Then after a couple of races, that turned into "give him a couple of races to settle down", a couple of races after those couple of races it was "give him until half season to get used to the car, he's been out for three years". Now that's morphed into "wait until 2011 when the car will suit him and you will see the real Schumi".

Schumacher can battle for position, but unlike his first career, he's now battling to save his position, not gain one. I totally disagree that Schumacher isn't tarnishing his reputation. What happened to the man who could drive around a car's weaknesses, put an inferior car in places it should not be, whilst at the same time demolishing his teammate and putting them in their place. I see no signs of that man in 2010.

So if he hasn't lost it, exactly where is his edge ? He needs to find it soon, or questions will always remain about how much of his success was down to the team / car, and not just the man himself. If Schuamcher wants to keep his legacy intact he needs to improve quickly. I think if it were not for his previous glory (and PR), he would be struggling to retain his seat for the remainder of this season, let alone 2011.

In a short run he is tarnishing his reputation but on the long run he is not. After 50 years from now the history will only remember his WDC wins and his grand prix wins. How the history will grade his results also depends on how long his records will stay intact.

Edited by slaveceru, 19 August 2010 - 13:22.


#4768 Buttoneer

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Posted 19 August 2010 - 13:27

After 50 years from now the history will only remember his WDC wins and his grand prix wins.

And his black flags, and his disqualifications, and his lack of success in making a phoenix-like return in 2010. Same is true for all drivers. The only thing unlikely to have carried forward for 50 years is whether he signed a little boys autograph book, drove a taxi at breakneck speed, and had a funny little moustache when he was a youth or whatever other silly excuse people like to use to make a point.

I think history WILL take note of what is happening in 2010 if only to show that there was a year where he was (I predict) beaten by a team mate.

#4769 Frans

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Posted 19 August 2010 - 13:36

Otherwise I will help history a little hand in that ..... :clap: :p

#4770 flyer121

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Posted 19 August 2010 - 14:31

In a short run he is tarnishing his reputation but on the long run he is not. After 50 years from now the history will only remember his WDC wins and his grand prix wins. How the history will grade his results also depends on how long his records will stay intact.



You are right in assuming that future generations are subject to rose-tinted effect where they only remember the good things and forget the drab ones.
But that only works for the sport as a whole IMO. Individual drivers are remembered on the spectacle they produce.
MS was spectacularly successful in his heyday but that simply made his 2010 season an even more spectacular failure.

Young F1 fans joining the bandwagon right about now will always wonder what the Schumi fuss was about and will pass the same feeling on to further generations - so you can rest assured that henceforth MS greatness will always be mentioned with the caveat of 2010.

Now if 50 years hence, someone (who previously never cared about F1 ) is doing a project on the "pinnacle of racing" in the early parts of the century - then possibly a casual look on Wikipedia will show that MS was a 7WDC with the logical assumption that he was "One of the Greats".
If that's what you are talking about.





#4771 man

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Posted 19 August 2010 - 15:15

In a short run he is tarnishing his reputation but on the long run he is not. After 50 years from now the history will only remember his WDC wins and his grand prix wins. How the history will grade his results also depends on how long his records will stay intact.



No I disagree. History reveals details. Mike Tyson was a champion yet he is renowned for his psychotic personality. F1 related - It is common knowledge that Jody Scheckter won the last WDC for Ferrari until 2000 and it is also fairly common knowledge that he had a horrid 1980 season.

Nelson Piquet is a three times world champion but history and common knowledge will note that he also showed little interest when he didn't have a WDC potential winning car.

History states Stirling Moss failed to win a WDC but today he commands more attention and respect than various championship winners combined.

However, I don't think 2010 has tarnished M Schumacher in anyway just as it has not portrayed him in a new light. The key aspects of his 2010 season are:

a) In a fair team environment, he has been outdriven by his teammate
b) His demented move on Barrichello at the Hungaroring.

That summarises his 2010 season in a nutshell. However, there has always been speculation about what he could acheive in a team environment focused on equality. And he has always been renowned for being careless when it comes to the safety of himself and other drivers. So nothing new has arisen from the 2010 season. Yes, it has probably given food for thought for those that did not or perhaps did not want to look at the circumstances he raced in before he retired. However both aspect a) and b) were well documented/speculated before 2006.

History is there for everybody to see...it is up to the individual how deep they want to look into it. Tricking the history books by concelaing the true contexts in which they took place is hardly a cause for a sense of satisfaction...though it may be for some. ;-)

Edited by man, 19 August 2010 - 15:19.


#4772 JackTorrance

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Posted 19 August 2010 - 17:34

1 swallow does not make a summer. Go back through the 2006 season. He had flashes but as many bad days.

If he were just a 'few tenths" that would be one thing. As for your last point....I am sure his die hard fans are OK seeing him drive around but I doubt he will be content with it past this year and I really doubt they will at Merc. Nascar does this but it does not last long in F1 where you are only as good as your last race regardless of how you did before. Just ask Piquet with 3 wdc and 3 wins in the previous 18 races for a team that had only won 6 ever who was pushed out of Benneton the year Schumacher arrived.


Id say Shumis 2006 summer was as good as anyone's. He had 11 podiums, 7 wins. Ended the year with 124 points in 2nd place, 13 behind Alonso and had some sterling drives, like finishing 5th after starting 22nd at Monaco. If we look at Piquets last season....he had one lucky win because 5 cars ahead of him dropped out for various reasons. Also i dispute him being kicked out. His contract wasnt renewed, thats all. He wasnt shoved aside like Roberto Moreno when Schumacher took his place.

And Im not a die hard fan, or maybe I am. But compared to Rosberg Schumacher isnt doing badly, had some weekends when he made Rosberg look slow and while some races he underperformed, others he was unlucky to not score points. When he was racing Alonso once green flags were being shown at Monaco for instance.

Still, Piquet had 24 wins and 17 poles? Schumacher has 91 wins, 68 poles. Seven world titles, 5 of them won in a row. That oughta buy him some slack. And with Brawn as team boss, and the noises Haug makes apparently it does.

Edited by JackTorrance, 19 August 2010 - 17:35.


#4773 JackTorrance

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Posted 19 August 2010 - 17:44

Can you give me some examples? I can't say that the presscoverage I've read is very negative about Schumacher. Are you perhaps mixing up reporting with op-ed articles and columns? A lot of 'disenchanted readers' tend to do that, in my experience...



What a strange comment. Are you suggesting that because he's given them plenty to write about in the past they should only write 'nice' things about him? Surely you want your journo's to report what is happening? Surely you, as an intelligent person, can see that Michael's performances in relation to Rosberg are worthy of talking about, or maybe you think every journo should qualify a 'Michael didn't make it to Q3 again' report by explaining that the cars not very good, he's been away for three years, he's 41, he's not happy with tyres, and we shouldn't really look too hard at his apprent lack of performance because, after all, he's a nice guy and he's given us fifteen years of good copy? The very fact that he IS a seven times world champion is what makes this seasons performances so notable; if he was Nick Heidfeld it wouldn't have been worthy of a mention. I must differ to you - I don't want fawning nonsense full of excuses but facts, and Michael isn't doing very well, is he?



I forgot his name, but one of those F1 journos that writes blogs had article headed by: shumi, retire now'. Ive read other denigrating comments. These are the same boys who turn a blind eye when Lewis does one of his kamikaze-like actions, or say: this is what we wan to see: battling drivers driving on the edge or what is acceptable! Double standards, as usually with some of the (British) press boys.



When Schumacher announced his retirement, many of his fans (and i suspect you are one), were running around various forums telling anyone that would listen that Schumacher was going to put all the young pretenders in their rightful place, etc. Then after a couple of races, that turned into "give him a couple of races to settle down", a couple of races after those couple of races it was "give him until half season to get used to the car, he's been out for three years". Now that's morphed into "wait until 2011 when the car will suit him and you will see the real Schumi".

Schumacher can battle for position, but unlike his first career, he's now battling to save his position, not gain one. I totally disagree that Schumacher isn't tarnishing his reputation.



Actually I wasnt. Id always suspected Ferrari and especially Red Bull would be the bench mark in 2010. As for tarnishing his reputation... I dread to think what your verdict is on Fisichella, putting a Force India on pole and 3 races later struggling to qualify better than P21 in a Ferrari. Face it, Rosberg overall is faster but not by a huge margin and not all the time.

Edited by JackTorrance, 19 August 2010 - 17:44.


#4774 britishtrident

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Posted 19 August 2010 - 17:58

snip

And Im not a die hard fan, or maybe I am. But compared to Rosberg Schumacher isnt doing badly, had some weekends when he made Rosberg look slow and while some races he underperformed, others he was unlucky to not score points. When he was racing Alonso once green flags were being shown at Monaco for instance.



He might have been racing Alonso but nobody told Alonso who doing what he was supposed to do and didn't know he was racing anyone --- it takes two to race. a mugging is very different from a boxing match.

The fact is Schumacher is a a very long way behind of Rosberg in the points tally, cold fact is Rosberg has been consistantly scoring points at almost three times the rate of Schumcher , --- if Schumacher was a rookie he would have been told his contract wasn't being renewed a few races back. Yes the car isn't as fast as it might be mainly because after Honda left Brawn had to lay off people put everything into the 2009 car, it wasn't Rosberg, Button or Barrachello influence. The aero is not good and it has some understeer. If Schumacher was half the driver everybody thought he was he could drive round the understeer and figure out how to make the tyres work for a full stint.


Every other all time top ten GP driver was renowned for driving anything and everything fast, Clark's legendary versatility has already been discussed but another example is Fangio, in South America he was racing huge pre WW2 american sedans in what were in effect long distance rallies , he came to Europe sat in a GP car for the first time and was immediately a winner.

#4775 aditya-now

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Posted 19 August 2010 - 18:15

Don't forget to mention to add Schumacher's sabotage on Kimi's Ferrari. :wave:


I see certain similarities in strategies that have been applied to Kimi´s races when he was in Ferrari and Michael on the Ferrari pitwall, and the strategies that are being applied to Michael (not Rosberg!) now that he is with Mercedes GP.

Could it be that the author of said strategies is one and the same person?


#4776 aditya-now

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Posted 19 August 2010 - 18:16

And his black flags, and his disqualifications, and his lack of success in making a phoenix-like return in 2010. Same is true for all drivers. The only thing unlikely to have carried forward for 50 years is whether he signed a little boys autograph book, drove a taxi at breakneck speed, and had a funny little moustache when he was a youth or whatever other silly excuse people like to use to make a point.

I think history WILL take note of what is happening in 2010 if only to show that there was a year where he was (I predict) beaten by a team mate.


!!!

Post of the thread for me!
:up:



#4777 aditya-now

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Posted 19 August 2010 - 18:20

Now if 50 years hence, someone (who previously never cared about F1 ) is doing a project on the "pinnacle of racing" in the early parts of the century - then possibly a casual look on Wikipedia will show that MS was a 7WDC with the logical assumption that he was "One of the Greats".
If that's what you are talking about.


....assuming that there is still something called F1 in 50 years time. Who knows, maybe mankind will be past such spectacles by then?
And if not, what will the cars of 2060 look like?
Schumacher will be as well known or as little known then as Fangio is now to teens and twens.


#4778 ivand911

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Posted 19 August 2010 - 18:22

[/i],--- if Schumacher was a rookie he would have been told his contract wasn't being renewed a few races back.

The stupidest think I hear lately. HA HA HA If he was a rookie with 38 points ,he would have his contract renewed a few races back. First rookie is with 17 points now? And I think Michael will be with us in 2012 too, Americans want him for first American GP. What else they will show there. :rotfl: About 50 years from now, you remember what you see, if you don't see you will not remember. You just read statistics.

Edited by ivand911, 19 August 2010 - 18:28.


#4779 aditya-now

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Posted 19 August 2010 - 18:22

History states Stirling Moss failed to win a WDC but today he commands more attention and respect than various championship winners combined.


The name Stirling Moss definitely commands more respect and and attention than Mike Hawthorn, Denny Hulme, Jody Scheckter and Damon Hill, at least from my side of the fence.
So history is not so blind in making its judgements!


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#4780 aditya-now

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Posted 19 August 2010 - 18:23

The stupidest think I hear lately. HA HA HA If he was a rookie with 38 points ,he would have his contract renewed a few races back. First rookie is with 17 points now?


In a Mercedes GP, the fourth car in the WCC?


#4781 ivand911

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Posted 19 August 2010 - 18:32

In a Mercedes GP, the fourth car in the WCC?

Fourth for now. And yes he still, would be the rookie with most points. Renault is not worst car , and still 17 points for Petrov. What is your point again? And two MGP drivers will be beaten next races. My opinion. Other cars improved much.

Edited by ivand911, 19 August 2010 - 18:35.


#4782 aditya-now

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Posted 19 August 2010 - 19:10

What is your point again?


My point again is that Schumi is a 7 time WDC and doing not much better than a rookie in an inferior car.


And two MGP drivers will be beaten next races. My opinion. Other cars improved much.


One MGP driver will surely be beaten badly in the next few races, guess who. Not because other cars improved so much.
Yet, I would not be so negative concerning Michael: Spa has always been Schumi´s classical track, his first win, some stellar drives, so it would be a pity if 2010 would show him past his glory even in Spa.

There is still hope.

#4783 slaveceru

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Posted 19 August 2010 - 19:14

And his black flags, and his disqualifications, and his lack of success in making a phoenix-like return in 2010. Same is true for all drivers. The only thing unlikely to have carried forward for 50 years is whether he signed a little boys autograph book, drove a taxi at breakneck speed, and had a funny little moustache when he was a youth or whatever other silly excuse people like to use to make a point.

I think history WILL take note of what is happening in 2010 if only to show that there was a year where he was (I predict) beaten by a team mate.

Are you so shore about this i do not think so because most of us that we are here will be death and new ones will not be interested in such a detail about Schumacher as it is now days? You can see how other legends from other sports with questionable reputation are evaluated in history mostly in positive way. One legend with the questionable reputation was also TY Cobb and jet he is regarded as one of the best players in baseball. Do you really think that in 50 years from now the people will remember how many times Schumacher was disqualified or how many times did he get the black flag they will not remember because there will be others new legends after him and new champions who will rewrite the F1 sport in a new way as each champion did in his era only thing that will remain are the wins and WDC how he has come to them it will be forgotten. Fangio drove 60 years ago do you know each detail about him like you know about Schumacher? If the answer is yes than you are in minority.

#4784 ivand911

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Posted 19 August 2010 - 19:14

My point again is that Schumi is a 7 time WDC and doing not much better than a rookie in an inferior car.




One MGP driver will surely be beaten badly in the next few races, guess who. Not because other cars improved so much.
Yet, I would not be so negative concerning Michael: Spa has always been Schumi´s classical track, his first win, some stellar drives, so it would be a pity if 2010 would show him past his glory even in Spa.

There is still hope.

Who need hope, it is enough Michael is here. Which car is inferior? Renault, try again. I think it is hard to understand ,but with this car you will not see stellar drive from Michael. I don't remember very inspiring drives from Nico too. This car is everything else, but inspiring. And if you remember he have 10 place penalty.

Edited by ivand911, 19 August 2010 - 19:22.


#4785 JustinCider

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Posted 19 August 2010 - 19:19

The stupidest think I hear lately. HA HA HA If he was a rookie with 38 points ,he would have his contract renewed a few races back. First rookie is with 17 points now? And I think Michael will be with us in 2012 too, Americans want him for first American GP. What else they will show there. :rotfl: About 50 years from now, you remember what you see, if you don't see you will not remember. You just read statistics.


Schumacher isn't a rookie. He has seven world titles to his name, something which his apologisers remind us of constantly when excusing his sub-par performances.

Do you have any statistics, quotes or figures to prove your 2012 American GP claims ?

#4786 slaveceru

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Posted 19 August 2010 - 19:26

The name Stirling Moss definitely commands more respect and and attention than Mike Hawthorn, Denny Hulme, Jody Scheckter and Damon Hill, at least from my side of the fence.
So history is not so blind in making its judgements!

:rotfl:
SO why you did not mentioned Fangio. Fangio is better rated in history thanStirling jet they drove in the same time? Are you once again bias in how the history generally evaluates drivers or is this just your opinion?

Edited by slaveceru, 19 August 2010 - 19:45.


#4787 man

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Posted 19 August 2010 - 19:31

Are you so shore about this i do not think so because most of us that we are here will be death and new ones will not be interested in such a detail about Schumacher as it is now days? You can see how other legends from other sports with questionable reputation are evaluated in history mostly in positive way. One legend with the questionable reputation was also TY Cobb and jet he is regarded as one of the best players in baseball. Do you really think that in 50 years from now the people will remember how many times Schumacher was disqualified or how many times did he get the black flag they will not remember because there will be others new legends after him and new champions who will rewrite the F1 sport in a new way as each champion did in his era only thing that will remain are the wins and WDC how he has come to them it will be forgotten. Fangio drove 60 years ago do you know each detail about him like you know about Schumacher? If the answer is yes than you are in minority.


What is your point with this rhetoric? You have a habit of going off on a tangent waffling about the bizarre.

Another thing, without trying to sound rude, do you think you could re-read your posts before clicking the "send button" because they are full of spelling/grammar errors which makes your posts very frustrating to read. A shame because sometimes I think you may have interesting points, but I give up after reading just a few words.

Try using paragraphs too - it may help.

ps I know i'm the last who should complain as I often post through a mobile device and only notice my mistakes afterwards. :blush:

Edited by man, 19 August 2010 - 19:34.


#4788 ivand911

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Posted 19 August 2010 - 19:33

Schumacher isn't a rookie. He has seven world titles to his name, something which his apologisers remind us of constantly when excusing his sub-par performances.

Do you have any statistics, quotes or figures to prove your 2012 American GP claims ?

Hello, non apologiser ,we have a lot like you here. About American GP , Michael say he was invited to give some advises for new track. And this make me said what I said. What trigger you , that he will be here in 2012 or that Americans want him there. Let me think who is the biggest name for them in F1? No, now I think they will not want him in their first race. :) I just remember that Americans don't like big show.

Edited by ivand911, 19 August 2010 - 19:33.


#4789 slaveceru

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Posted 19 August 2010 - 19:45

What is your point with this rhetoric? You have a habit of going off on a tangent waffling about the bizarre.

Another thing, without trying to sound rude, do you think you could re-read your posts before clicking the "send button" because they are full of spelling/grammar errors which makes your posts very frustrating to read. A shame because sometimes I think you may have interesting points, but I give up after reading just a few words.

Try using paragraphs too - it may help.

ps I know i'm the last who should complain as I often post through a mobile device and only notice my mistakes afterwards. :blush:


I apologies but my mother language is not English. Here is the short version of my observation about history. History only worship the winners how they have come to victory it does not matter. So whatever you say about Schumacher how his reputation is destroyed in the eye of the history it is just wishful thinking.

#4790 JustinCider

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Posted 19 August 2010 - 20:18

Hello, non apologiser ,we have a lot like you here. About American GP , Michael say he was invited to give some advises for new track. And this make me said what I said. What trigger you , that he will be here in 2012 or that Americans want him there. Let me think who is the biggest name for them in F1? No, now I think they will not want him in their first race. :) I just remember that Americans don't like big show.


Schumacher has advised Herman Tilke in the past regarding designs of certain corners at GP circuits, they still have survived since his first retirement in 2006. No big news there, it just means that the people building the track are using their good sense to employ the mind of an incredibly successull racing driver to aid them in their persuit to design a brilliant showpeice circuit. Also, if i'm not wrong i think Schumacher was not the only driver to visit the new venue for the US GP, either. I don't personally care if Schumacher is on the 2012 grid, or who wants to see him - as long as we get a good season of racing, that is all that matters, no matter who's racing.

Drivers come and go - F1 is here to stay.

#4791 aditya-now

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Posted 19 August 2010 - 21:00

:rotfl:
SO why you did not mentioned Fangio. Fangio is better rated in history thanStirling jet they drove in the same time? Are you once again bias in how the history generally evaluates drivers or is this just your opinion?


Not at all, the point was that even a non-WDC like Sir Stirling can be regarded better than some one-time WDCs like the ones I have mentioned. I don´t know where you hail from and how old you are, but you will find enormous respect in the racing community for Moss. Has nothing to do with bias.

In the same way, Michael may not find the respect 7 WDCs in themselves would guarantee, as there are other factors to his career, as Buttoneer has so eloquently enumerated. These things again have nothing to do with bias - Michael has brought them unto himself by his own doing.


#4792 aditya-now

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Posted 19 August 2010 - 21:06

Fangio drove 60 years ago do you know each detail about him like you know about Schumacher? If the answer is yes than you are in minority.


Fangio was a man of honour, a gentleman on and off the track, and that is how he is being remembered.
Schumacher, while statistically the best of them all, had his other sides, and these other sides were big enough to be remembered.

It is not the details of Fangio´s chivalry, but the total impression of him as a driver with great integrity that will be remembered. It will not be the details of Michael´s misdeeds, but the total impression of him wanting to win at all costs, and going where no one had gone before, that will be remembered.


#4793 Buttoneer

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Posted 19 August 2010 - 23:35

I apologies but my mother language is not English. Here is the short version of my observation about history. History only worship the winners how they have come to victory it does not matter. So whatever you say about Schumacher how his reputation is destroyed in the eye of the history it is just wishful thinking.

I did read your first post but I've chosen to quote this one for ease really.

My point was not to have a bash at Schumacher, only to point out that in 50 years time the history books will more than likely show the bad with the good.

If you want to write the very briefest of sentences about Schumacher, then you will refer to him as '7x WDC Michael Schumacher' and that's it, job done.

If you write a paragraph, you'll add some other words like 'controversial' as well as 'brilliant' and have a final sentence about his 'failed comeback' (and I know this has yet to be shown, but bear with me).

If you start to write beyond a single paragraph then of course Adelaide and Jerez will be mentioned, maybe the Barrichello thing for Hungary might be forgotten but Rassecasse will not, nor will Austria 2002. Car reliability will be in there as well as the professionalism he has brought to the sport and his four-pitstop achievement. 2010 will be mentioned because Nico has beaten him and, well, that's remarkable. I didn't expect that.

So the more detail you do into, the more there will be to say in order to caveat and put his performances into perspective.

What these history books will not show is all the silly stuff we talk about here and which winds so many people up - the Brokeback Mountain chic, his great charity work, stealing Frentzens woman, and refusing autographs.

You use the word 'worship' and of course a book designed to worship him will certainly have none of the bad stuff, but one which is trying to be objective must surely mention it even if the conclusion is still that he is the greatest who ever lived.

#4794 arknor

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Posted 20 August 2010 - 02:19

It will not be the details of Michael´s misdeeds, but the total impression of him wanting to win at all costs, and going where no one had gone before, that will be remembered.

senna was no angel yet most people like to forget that.

maybe in time it will be the same with schumacher or does he have to die in a race?

#4795 SparkPlug

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Posted 20 August 2010 - 02:33

And his black flags, and his disqualifications, and his lack of success in making a phoenix-like return in 2010. Same is true for all drivers. The only thing unlikely to have carried forward for 50 years is whether he signed a little boys autograph book, drove a taxi at breakneck speed, and had a funny little moustache when he was a youth or whatever other silly excuse people like to use to make a point.

I think history WILL take note of what is happening in 2010 if only to show that there was a year where he was (I predict) beaten by a team mate.

Its quite surprising you say this, especially when you see the "god like" status people tend to give Ayrton Senna these days. Do too many people remember all his acts of unsporting behaviour ? And this phenomenon (of completely ignoring Senna's multiple incidents of unsporting behaviour and proclaiming him as a fair driver) started as far back as 2003-2004 as far as I can remember. Within 10 years of MS's retirement I see the same happening there as well. The public has a short memory, all they remember later is what the driver has achieved, and what sterling performances he put in in his first career and not what some people here like to believe.

Edited by SparkPlug, 20 August 2010 - 02:34.


#4796 SparkPlug

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Posted 20 August 2010 - 02:37

What is your point with this rhetoric? You have a habit of going off on a tangent waffling about the bizarre.
.
.
.
. A shame because sometimes I think you may have interesting points, but I give up after reading just a few words.

Lol look whose talking :rotfl: Ever thought that your single minded pursuit on this forum may be causing others to have the same views about your posts ?

#4797 Muz Bee

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Posted 20 August 2010 - 03:01

senna was no angel yet most people like to forget that.

maybe in time it will be the same with schumacher or does he have to die in a race?

Speak for yourself! My disgust for Senna's dangerous and unsporting driving (it CHANGED the sport I used to really love) dominate his place in history in my mind. His sanstimonious God talk used to make me sick about his ego. I stopped watching F1 after some of his stunts and it was Schumacher who (ironically) drew me back to F1. His incidents with Hill were bad enough but when Michael went to Ferrari I believed this would start a glorious era in F1. And it almost did, except his inclusion of tactics from the Ayrton Senna coaching manual "anything goes if you can get away with it" were A LITTLE DISAPPOINTING for those of us who still believe in life, business and sport enjoying fair play goes without saying.

I expected Michael to have the upper hand on Nico this year but I have to say I'm actually quite cheerful he is getting his butt kicked. I hope he comes back for another year of it too because it is not for no reason that he is the driver of the 2000s that people love to hate. It's good for a human being to sometimes be on the receiving end so having to let Nico take his place at some point would be poetic justice. Trouble is he just isn't quick eniugh, often enough, or in WDC potential car for that to be all that likely. Adversity is character building Mikey. :wave:

Edited by Muz Bee, 20 August 2010 - 03:02.


#4798 Muz Bee

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Posted 20 August 2010 - 03:07

Buttoneer's last post sums it up rather well for neutral observors of F1.

Warts and all, is how the history books will record M Schumacher. There's certainly plenty of both sides to make a giant of a book, but please, don't give us one of those dewey, romantic novels that gloss over the inconveniently horrible bits. Hungary 2010 was the most dangerous of his sporting misdemeanours, let's not forget, and all in a squabble over, was it 1 point? Cheap shot at best. And in a season where he failed to look like a winner of any description, but we await Spa with hopes of a majestic return to glory.

Edited by Muz Bee, 20 August 2010 - 03:09.


#4799 slaveceru

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Posted 20 August 2010 - 04:07

I did read your first post but I've chosen to quote this one for ease really.

My point was not to have a bash at Schumacher, only to point out that in 50 years time the history books will more than likely show the bad with the good.

If you want to write the very briefest of sentences about Schumacher, then you will refer to him as '7x WDC Michael Schumacher' and that's it, job done.

If you write a paragraph, you'll add some other words like 'controversial' as well as 'brilliant' and have a final sentence about his 'failed comeback' (and I know this has yet to be shown, but bear with me).

If you start to write beyond a single paragraph then of course Adelaide and Jerez will be mentioned, maybe the Barrichello thing for Hungary might be forgotten but Rassecasse will not, nor will Austria 2002. Car reliability will be in there as well as the professionalism he has brought to the sport and his four-pitstop achievement. 2010 will be mentioned because Nico has beaten him and, well, that's remarkable. I didn't expect that.

So the more detail you do into, the more there will be to say in order to caveat and put his performances into perspective.

What these history books will not show is all the silly stuff we talk about here and which winds so many people up - the Brokeback Mountain chic, his great charity work, stealing Frentzens woman, and refusing autographs.

You use the word 'worship' and of course a book designed to worship him will certainly have none of the bad stuff, but one which is trying to be objective must surely mention it even if the conclusion is still that he is the greatest who ever lived.

History generally worship the winners because people write about history and it is in human nature to worship winner they will probably find some bad staff about him if they will be interested in him in details but I do not think that majority of people who will watch F1 50 years from now will be so much interested in Schumacher at all because there will be new legends. 100 years from now it is possible that Schumacher will be completely forgotten as many other legends in the history of f1 racing. This is how history works.

So how it is possible than to say that Schumacher has tarnished his reputation in just one year in the eye of the history if there is a probability that history will not give a crap about this year performance from him in F1.

Edited by slaveceru, 20 August 2010 - 04:10.


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#4800 aditya-now

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Posted 20 August 2010 - 06:11

The public has a short memory, all they remember later is what the driver has achieved, and what sterling performances he put in in his first career and not what some people here like to believe.


Wait an see. Contrary to Senna, Schumacher's reputation is quite tarnished already. Michael did it too often, over a too long period of time, getting too many public reactions. Add to that a sub-optimal comeback (of course, a successful 2011/2012 will be able to salvage Michael) and Schumacher will be looking at a very different memory the public has about him than about Senna.

Mind you, "the public" is not people here on the BB.