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#4801 aditya-now

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Posted 20 August 2010 - 06:15

but please, don't give us one of those dewey, romantic novels that gloss over the inconveniently horrible bits.


Don't worry, Muz Bee, Sean Valen will take care of that in his next post...


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#4802 aditya-now

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Posted 20 August 2010 - 06:34

History generally worship the winners because people write about history and it is in human nature to worship winner they will probably find some bad staff about him if they will be interested in him in details but I do not think that majority of people who will watch F1 50 years from now will be so much interested in Schumacher at all because there will be new legends. 100 years from now it is possible that Schumacher will be completely forgotten as many other legends in the history of f1 racing. This is how history works.

So how it is possible than to say that Schumacher has tarnished his reputation in just one year in the eye of the history if there is a probability that history will not give a crap about this year performance from him in F1.


History records glorious winners as well as villains. Thus Ben Johnson ring a bell to you? Or Lance Armstrong (in a few year's time, his myth is just being unravelled)?
Even his wikipedia entry has a second title: "allegations of drug use".

His comeback was a golden chance for Michael to turn the tables - even I was willing to believe that we will see a more mellow, more gracious and more human Michael, at the same time still driving spectacularly. You are always willing to give someone the benefit of the doubt. Look what has Michael made of it! The performance is lack-lustre, and to top it off he produced the Hungaroring 2010 maneuvre with Barrichello. It did not stand him in good stead. The tiger has lost his teeth, but not his stripes.

So how do you think history will view Schumacher? Not as critical as I paint it here, but not as glorious as you would like to think. Wait and see. Most of us will be here in 30 year's time to witness - the sport then may look upon this period in history as a period of great un-sportsmanship, take all the Johnsons, Armstrongs, Sennas and Schumachers as typical proponents.

Driving-wise, as SparkPlug has me on record, Michael will always be remembered being the # 2 to Ayrton Senna. All the polls, particularily the polls among drivers themselves, that continue to put Ayrton at #1 and Michael at #2 at best will take care of that.

#4803 ivand911

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Posted 20 August 2010 - 06:37

Fangio was a man of honour, a gentleman on and off the track, and that is how he is being remembered.

Are you sure about that? You see all his races? Or you just hear things? If he was racing now there would be long threads about him too. I think that is how all will think about Michael after 50 years. Because nobody will happen to see one race of him. Or maybe push to the wall will be part of the game then(after 50 years), and they will say MS who invented this move, The man with who the real F1 started? All other drivers will be considered too soft(not to say other word) for their taste. :clap:
About polls who care where they put Michael? It is important where I put him, everything else is so irrelevant. :) Polls, you make my day. :rotfl:

Edited by ivand911, 20 August 2010 - 06:48.


#4804 aditya-now

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Posted 20 August 2010 - 06:47

Are you sure about that? You see all his races? Or you just hear things? I think that is how all will think about Michael after 50 years. Because nobody will happen to see one race of him. Or maybe push to the wall will be part of the game then, and they will say MS who invented this move, The man with who real F1 started? All other drivers will be considered to soft(not to say other word) for their taste. :clap:


I am sure about that, and, team strategy aside (Fangio's number 2s would surrender the car to him out of respect, not being forced by team orders - at least that's what remains as a public memory 53 years later), his general driving record is immaculate.

Why do you think Juan Manuel gets so much respect from the drivers of his generation as well as from drivers of generations that follow?
He is the grand old man of F1.

Why do you think the peers of Michael Schumacher see him rather critical, see him as the statistically most successful, but also most dirty driver there is? Because they themselves experienced it with Michael on the track. You have to look no further than to the driver polls of who was the F1 best driver. At least in his generation Michael does not have too many fans left, and that judgement from his peers will further itself down the stream of history, just as the judgement on Juan Manuel Fangio and his honorability has furthered itself down the sweep of decades...


#4805 ivand911

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Posted 20 August 2010 - 06:57

Fangio's number 2s would surrender the car to him out of respect, not being forced by team orders - at least that's what remains as a public memory 53 years later), his general driving record is immaculate.

My advise ,stop here before you tarnish the old guy reputation? I am sure Massa also respects Alonso. And why we discuss old guys in this thread?


#4806 aditya-now

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Posted 20 August 2010 - 07:01

My advise ,stop here before you tarnish the old guy reputation? I am sure Massa also respects Alonso. And why we discuss old guys in this thread?


You are not in the position to give advices, Ivan, and the incident is well known. It says tons about Fangio's reputation among the other drivers of his times. But neither has Rubens ever surrendered willingly to Michael nor Felipe to Fernando.

It was a different time back then, a time of gentleman racers and code of honor.

#4807 Lifew12

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Posted 20 August 2010 - 07:22

I forgot his name, but one of those F1 journos that writes blogs had article headed by: shumi, retire now'. Ive read other denigrating comments. These are the same boys who turn a blind eye when Lewis does one of his kamikaze-like actions, or say: this is what we wan to see: battling drivers driving on the edge or what is acceptable! Double standards, as usually with some of the (British) press boys.


Aaaah, of course - you mean BRITISH journo's! I forgot it was only BRITISH journo's who dare to write anything denigrating about your hero! Of course, the German journo's are all banging on about how good he is, aren't they, despite him being comprehensively trounced by a countryman with less than half his experience?

A blog - by its very nature - is the opinion of the writer; blogs don't tend to rely on the facts, they offer a personal insight and attitude. If, of course, you think that nobody can possibly say anything nasty about Michael Schumacher because he has won seven world titles and 91 GP's then that's fair enough - I am sure there will be blogs out there that suit your needs. If not, start one yourself - it's free! Me, as an interested reader, I can clearly see that Michael coming back and looking, frequently, awful is something that has to be reported. I would rather read 'Michael was beaten by Rosberg again' etc than 'Michael Schumacher, seven times world champion and 91 race winner, put in a tremendous performance from 14th on the grid and was absolutely the class of the field to finish 9th' wouldn't you?

Has it crossed your mind that not everyone worships him the way you do?










#4808 ivand911

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Posted 20 August 2010 - 07:22

But neither has Rubens ever surrendered willingly to Michael nor Felipe to Fernando.
It was a different time back then, a time of gentleman racers and code of honor.

In Michael case there wasn't rule against it, and he didn't initiated it(as opposed in Alonso case). About last part it is very funny. They throw their knights clothes and swords and get in the cars.

Edited by ivand911, 20 August 2010 - 07:23.


#4809 Slartibartfast

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Posted 20 August 2010 - 07:24

senna was no angel yet most people like to forget that.

maybe in time it will be the same with schumacher or does he have to die in a race?

Its quite surprising you say this, especially when you see the "god like" status people tend to give Ayrton Senna these days. Do too many people remember all his acts of unsporting behaviour ? And this phenomenon (of completely ignoring Senna's multiple incidents of unsporting behaviour and proclaiming him as a fair driver) started as far back as 2003-2004 as far as I can remember. Within 10 years of MS's retirement I see the same happening there as well. The public has a short memory, all they remember later is what the driver has achieved, and what sterling performances he put in in his first career and not what some people here like to believe.


Since Senna's bad behaviour has been mentioned by two posts on one page, it seems that not everyone has forgotten. Why should that be different for Schumacher?

#4810 Lifew12

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Posted 20 August 2010 - 07:25

and they will say MS who invented this move, The man with who the real F1 started?


I know English is not your first language, Ivan, so with respect, are you suggesting that 'real F1' started with Michael, or are you suggesting that this will be how things are viewed in, say, fifty years?


#4811 ivand911

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Posted 20 August 2010 - 07:28

I know English is not your first language, Ivan, so with respect, are you suggesting that 'real F1' started with Michael, or are you suggesting that this will be how things are viewed in, say, fifty years?

Yes ,how the people in 50 years could view it, if to putt someone in the wall is something very usual for F1 after 50 years. He could be number one in every "poll" in 50 years? And something tell me he have big chance for this. Very big. Biggest. If you understand what I mean. 7 :cool:

Edited by ivand911, 20 August 2010 - 07:38.


#4812 Lifew12

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Posted 20 August 2010 - 07:42

Yes ,how the people in 50 years could view it, if to putt someone in the wall is something very usual for F1 after 50 years. He could be number one in every "poll" in 50 years? And something tell me he have big chance for this. Very big. Biggest. If you understand what I mean. 7 :cool:


Thanks, I thought that was what you meant. I doubt, however, that he'll be the only seven times champion in 50 years time.

#4813 ivand911

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Posted 20 August 2010 - 07:50

Thanks, I thought that was what you meant. I doubt, however, that he'll be the only seven times champion in 50 years time.

Or maybe to be first in the "polls" after 50 year, you don't need to be 7WDC. You just need to be 12 year old,1WDC and you to be very good when driving your Jet F1 car on 3d track? Who knows? This will make even Vettel and Lewis look old. We would be happy if we find in top 10, one familiar name. Fangio around top 30.

Edited by ivand911, 20 August 2010 - 07:57.


#4814 Lifew12

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Posted 20 August 2010 - 07:55

Or maybe to be first in the "polls" after 50 year, you don't need to be 7WDC. You just need to be 12 year old,1WDC and you to be very good when driving your Jet F1 car on 3d track? Who knows? This will make even Vettel and Lewis look old.


True, but it's telling that in any poll of 'all time greats' taking place now you will still find Fangio, Clark et al in the top few. personally, while Michael would appear in my top ten, it wouldn;t be near the top.

#4815 as65p

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Posted 20 August 2010 - 07:57

Its quite surprising you say this, especially when you see the "god like" status people tend to give Ayrton Senna these days. Do too many people remember all his acts of unsporting behaviour ? And this phenomenon (of completely ignoring Senna's multiple incidents of unsporting behaviour and proclaiming him as a fair driver) started as far back as 2003-2004 as far as I can remember. Within 10 years of MS's retirement I see the same happening there as well. The public has a short memory, all they remember later is what the driver has achieved, and what sterling performances he put in in his first career and not what some people here like to believe.


The one constant in every Schumacher discussion I ever read is the insurpressible urge of his supporters to talk about Senna.

Strange... :drunk: :p

#4816 aditya-now

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Posted 20 August 2010 - 08:02

The one constant in every Schumacher discussion I ever read is the insurpressible urge of his supporters to talk about Senna.

Strange... :drunk: :p


Not strange, given that Michael had Senna as his hero. Remember Michael breaking down in the PC after he equalled Senna´s record of 41 GP wins?


#4817 Yorkie

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Posted 20 August 2010 - 08:05

I dont in regards to the media. For years theyve made a lot of money writing about him, speculating on his retirement as far back as 2004. When he did finally retire they had noone to write about. When he did announce his return nobody could mention enough how great it was to have a 7 times world champion back on the grid. Its disgusting to see some of the things some 'journos' write about him. A total lack of respect and manners imo.

He's underperforming, what do you expect?

Id say Shumis 2006 summer was as good as anyone's. He had 11 podiums, 7 wins. Ended the year with 124 points in 2nd place, 13 behind Alonso and had some sterling drives, like finishing 5th after starting 22nd at Monaco. If we look at Piquets last season....he had one lucky win because 5 cars ahead of him dropped out for various reasons. Also i dispute him being kicked out. His contract wasnt renewed, thats all. He wasnt shoved aside like Roberto Moreno when Schumacher took his place.

And Im not a die hard fan, or maybe I am. But compared to Rosberg Schumacher isnt doing badly, had some weekends when he made Rosberg look slow and while some races he underperformed, others he was unlucky to not score points. When he was racing Alonso once green flags were being shown at Monaco for instance.

Still, Piquet had 24 wins and 17 poles? Schumacher has 91 wins, 68 poles. Seven world titles, 5 of them won in a row. That oughta buy him some slack. And with Brawn as team boss, and the noises Haug makes apparently it does.

Piquet did better relative to MS than what MS is doing relative to Rosberg

#4818 Lifew12

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Posted 20 August 2010 - 08:06

What is strange is tha assumption that people declare Senna 'a fair driver' and have 'forgotten' his unsportsmanlike behaviour. I haven't, and i doubt any who were watching f1 back then have either.

#4819 Big Block 8

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Posted 20 August 2010 - 08:26

Since Senna's bad behaviour has been mentioned by two posts on one page, it seems that not everyone has forgotten. Why should that be different for Schumacher?


And Fangio getting his teammate's car has also been mentioned over 50 years afterwards. :p

So no - Schumacher is not getting away with it after 50 years. IMO it could well be the other way around. In the late 90s and early 00s most parties involved were simply waxing lyrical about him being "head and shoulders above the rest" - or at least that was the party making undisputedly the most noise. From that point on, as his reputation goes, the direction has in fact been downhill and looking at his comeback the trend is bound to continue.

I think more neutral (and truthful) approach will prevail as time passes by - and in addition to statistics that includes taking more often into account not only his questionable driving antics but also the (in hindsight obvious) quality of his team and his personal status inside it, which during his active career were mostly perceived wrongly and/or just brushed off.

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#4820 Buttoneer

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Posted 20 August 2010 - 08:35

Since Senna's bad behaviour has been mentioned by two posts on one page, it seems that not everyone has forgotten. Why should that be different for Schumacher?

This isn't a Senna thread so I'll keep this brief but this is exactly the point isn't it? Senna is NEVER mentioned without Fuji being thrown in there somewhere. If anyone wants to take a look at the brilliant Top Gear 15 minute segment on Senna, they will see that his spectacular car control is right there central to the piece, with a bit of Donnington footage but then there's Fuji and his willingness to crash just to make a point to the another driver (and the governing body) that HE was right.

Even Fangio is rarely mentioned without also a comment on the fact that he could take his teammates car when he wanted to because he had #1 status in the team.

Schumacher will be remembered for all of things we talk about here, warts and all, assuming history is written by those with a reasonably open mind. Why would anyone want to whitewash him into some sort of flawless being anyway? Isn't it his flaws which define him as well as his strengths?

edit: :lol: nice one with the Fangio thing Big Block 8!

#4821 as65p

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Posted 20 August 2010 - 08:38

Not strange, given that Michael had Senna as his hero. Remember Michael breaking down in the PC after he equalled Senna´s record of 41 GP wins?


Yeah, but if the drivers are asked, about two thirds or more state Senna as their all-time favourite, not just Schumacher. Yet beside Schumacher I can only think of one other driver whose threads become so "sennaesque" frequently.

There must be a bit more to it... :cat:  ;)

#4822 as65p

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Posted 20 August 2010 - 08:42

... Senna is NEVER mentioned without Fuji ...


!Suzuka!

 ;)

#4823 man

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Posted 20 August 2010 - 08:43

The difference with Senna was that he seemed to evolve as a driver. After Suzuka 1990 he didn't do anything dangerous and stupid like M Schumacher has done continuously throughout his career. If anybody can think of an incident after Suzuka 1990, please remind me.

Edited by man, 20 August 2010 - 08:45.


#4824 Buttoneer

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Posted 20 August 2010 - 08:49

!Suzuka!

;)

Yeah, sorry. I could go back and change it but that would be cowardly and shameful.

#4825 as65p

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Posted 20 August 2010 - 08:52

The difference with Senna was that he seemed to evolve as a driver. After Suzuka 1990 he didn't do anything dangerous and stupid like M Schumacher has done continuously throughout his career. If anybody can think of an incident after Suzuka 1990, please remind me.


Shht!

In fact if you remove the Prost feud and some 50/50 tangles with Mansell in the earlier years there isn't much left of Senna's alleged dirtiness on track. But let's not elaborate, the MS fans have it hard enough these days...  ;)

#4826 Lifew12

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Posted 20 August 2010 - 08:53

The difference with Senna was that he seemed to evolve as a driver. After Suzuka 1990 he didn't do anything dangerous and stupid like M Schumacher has done continuously throughout his career. If anybody can think of an incident after Suzuka 1990, please remind me.


I think you mis the point. Senna was dangerous, and to defend that by saying 'yeah, but after such a date he didn't do anything...' is hopeful, at best. I watched his entire career, and have no doubt he would have done the same again had he felt the need to - that was simply him.

#4827 Buttoneer

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Posted 20 August 2010 - 08:57

I think you mis the point.

It's also pretty irrelevant to the discussion. Will Michael Schumacher's demerits be remembered as well as his successes? Yes, and we can see from the remembered (or half-remembered in my case!) history of Senna and Fangio that this is undoubtedly the case.

How these things get explained away or what filter is applied when viewing them will depend completely upon the writer, but I do not believe for one moment that Schumacher will only ever be a list of the largest numbers.

#4828 ivand911

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Posted 20 August 2010 - 09:00

Shht!
But let's not elaborate, the MS fans have it hard enough these days... ;)

Actually this days MS fans a just happy that he is here. Which you think is better: he driving or he not driving. For me is the first one. Maybe results are not great, but this depend from the angle you are watching. I can't wait for Spa even with 10 place penalty and hopeless car.


#4829 Muz Bee

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Posted 20 August 2010 - 09:02

I think you mis the point. Senna was dangerous, and to defend that by saying 'yeah, but after such a date he didn't do anything...' is hopeful, at best. I watched his entire career, and have no doubt he would have done the same again had he felt the need to - that was simply him.

Speculation Lifew12, but I tend to agree. He was ruthless but it was generally felt by fellow drivers that his disregard for others' safety was consistent with his disregard for his own. In my opinion he (Senna) needs to be singled out as the driver who lowered the code of honour in F1. Perhaps not remarkably, those drivers who idolise him tend to have similar lack of respect for driving etiquette.

Those who question Fangio's reputation only reveal their own lack of insight into how it was, as well as the huge regard his fellow drivers had for him. You only have to talk to Moss about JMF.

#4830 Lifew12

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Posted 20 August 2010 - 09:02

Actually this days MS fans a just happy that he is here. Which you think is better: he driving or he not driving. For me is the first one. Maybe results are not great, but this depend from the angle you are watching. I can't wait for Spa even with 10 place penalty and hopeless car.


I find this attitude admirable - as a Newcastle United fan I admire anyone who keeps watching when the chips are down! However, in F1 I would rather see a great champion go out as a great champion.

#4831 ivand911

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Posted 20 August 2010 - 09:06

I find this attitude admirable - as a Newcastle United fan I admire anyone who keeps watching when the chips are down! However, in F1 I would rather see a great champion go out as a great champion.

Great champions need great car and great team around them. And yes, what Nico achieve is not exceptional for me. Because with great car even not great champions ,do remarkably well. See RBR guys.


#4832 Lifew12

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Posted 20 August 2010 - 09:11

Great champions need great car and great team around them.


Well, yes, you're right, but what is being questioned more than anything - with regard to Michael this year - is his ability to adapt to a less than perfect car. So often in the past we've been told he was the ultimate car developer, the one man able to get the most out of an underperforming car, the man who brings a team together in perfect harmony and so on, and yet this year we are seeing none of that. His reputation on those counts is unravelling fast, and with good reason. Years of having dedicated test drivers pounding around Fiorano day, after day, after day to create the perfect Schumi-car are long gone, and what are we left with? A man who will always be one of the greatest drivers of all time - in my eyes at least - but one who is now lookign to be not quite all he was cracked up to be.


#4833 Buttoneer

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Posted 20 August 2010 - 09:11

Those who question Fangio's reputation

I'm one of 'those' who mentioned him and that's not what I did (or at least not what I intended). The point is not to discuss the incidents so much as show what history is remembered fifty years on. It was far from a balanced comment, I realise that, but then it wasn't a potted history.

#4834 ivand911

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Posted 20 August 2010 - 09:54

Well, yes, you're right, but what is being questioned more than anything - with regard to Michael this year - is his ability to adapt to a less than perfect car. So often in the past we've been told he was the ultimate car developer, the one man able to get the most out of an underperforming car, the man who brings a team together in perfect harmony and so on, and yet this year we are seeing none of that. His reputation on those counts is unravelling fast, and with good reason. Years of having dedicated test drivers pounding around Fiorano day, after day, after day to create the perfect Schumi-car are long gone, and what are we left with? A man who will always be one of the greatest drivers of all time - in my eyes at least - but one who is now lookign to be not quite all he was cracked up to be.

This could be said for Alonso too in 2008 and 2009? Do we know if Lewis is adaptable? Lucky for him and against every F1 logic, he didn't start with Minardi. As I said I would like to see them both in this year MGP car. And yes,they didn't miss 3 years.


#4835 Lifew12

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Posted 20 August 2010 - 10:20

This could be said for Alonso too in 2008 and 2009?


Could it? Are you really sure? We may be in disagreement here as I would say that Alonso galvanised Renault in no small way in '08 and '09 and was not only adaptable but drove development of the car pretty aggressively.

Do we know if Lewis is adaptable?


Yes. I think, without any doubt, Hamilton is able to adapt very well. That's my opinion, from watching him in the last ten years.

Lucky for him and against every F1 logic, he didn't start with Minardi.


It's an interesting point you raise - neither did Michael! I think we'd both agree, however, that had either begun their career in a Minardi, they would still have risen through the ranks.

As I said I would like to see them both in this year MGP car. And yes,they didn't miss 3 years.


I'm not sure what that would prove, Ivan. You have a benchmark in this years MGP car - Rosberg.


#4836 ivand911

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Posted 20 August 2010 - 10:30

Could it? Are you really sure? We may be in disagreement here as I would say that Alonso galvanised Renault in no small way in '08 and '09 and was not only adaptable but drove development of the car pretty aggressively.

And where this led him: 5th in 2008 and 9th in 2009. 9th remind me something.
I wanted to check them both against Nico ,not against Michael. This will be fear thing to do , all of them driving when tyres changed. They all know them well. Just MGP car will provide fun part.


#4837 Lifew12

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Posted 20 August 2010 - 10:41

And where this led him: 5th in 2008 and 9th in 2009. 9th remind me something.


yes, but you are of the opinion that even great drivers need great cars; we both know that the Renault was no great car, yet Alonso did extract the maximum possible from it.

I wanted to check them both against Nico ,not against Michael. This will be fear thing to do , all of them driving when tyres changed. They all know them well. Just MGP car will provide fun part.


Interesting; what do you think the outcome would be? I think both Alonso and Hamilton would easily beat Rosberg.


#4838 ivand911

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Posted 20 August 2010 - 10:45

yes, but you are of the opinion that even great drivers need great cars; we both know that the Renault was no great car, yet Alonso did extract the maximum possible from it.



Interesting; what do you think the outcome would be? I think both Alonso and Hamilton would easily beat Rosberg.

I think will be not so easy for them. Maybe he could surprise them. Why you think they will beat him? Because they have chance and they drive fast car and he didn't? With car that you can't compare with Ferrari he is not long way from Alonso. And with car like Ferrari he could do very well, he is consistent, not making mistakes.

Edited by ivand911, 20 August 2010 - 10:46.


#4839 Lifew12

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Posted 20 August 2010 - 10:46

I think will be not so easy for them. Maybe he could surprise them. Why you think they will beat him? Because they have chance and they drive fast car and he didn't?


Why do I think both Alonso and Hamilton would beat Rosberg in the same car? Because they are better drivers.


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#4840 ivand911

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Posted 20 August 2010 - 10:48

Why do I think both Alonso and Hamilton would beat Rosberg in the same car? Because they are better drivers.

But now Vettel and Webber are better than them? And you can wait 10 minutes before answering me, because I make a lot of editing and cleaning mistakes. :) Define better drivers?

Edited by ivand911, 20 August 2010 - 10:51.


#4841 Lifew12

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Posted 20 August 2010 - 10:50

But now Vettel and Webber are better than them?


I'm not sure why you come to that conclusion? We were talking about Rosberg, Michael, Alonso and Hamilton - Vettel and Webber didn't come into it.


#4842 Buttoneer

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Posted 20 August 2010 - 10:55

I think the conclusion may be based on current WDC positions rather than a considered view of driving styles.

#4843 ivand911

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Posted 20 August 2010 - 10:57

I'm not sure why you come to that conclusion? We were talking about Rosberg, Michael, Alonso and Hamilton - Vettel and Webber didn't come into it.

Check my last two posts again. You think they are better than Nico because they have better car, then RBR guys have to be better then Alonso and Lewis because they have car better then theirs.


#4844 ivand911

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Posted 20 August 2010 - 11:00

I think the conclusion may be based on current WDC positions rather than a considered view of driving styles.

You are maybe right, Nico was better driver than Alonso according 2009 WDC. Lewis was 5th best driver then too.

Edited by ivand911, 20 August 2010 - 11:01.


#4845 Lifew12

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Posted 20 August 2010 - 11:01

You think they are better than Nico because they have better car...


No, I think they are better drivers - I never mentioned anything about a better car.

#4846 slaveceru

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Posted 20 August 2010 - 11:03

Interesting; what do you think the outcome would be? I think both Alonso and Hamilton would easily beat Rosberg.


The times when one driver has beaten his teammate easily are long gone. The difference between the drivers now days is smaller and there is no testing any more so even the top drivers can make mistakes in the set up of there cars as we have seen this year in F1 racing. I also think that both drivers would be better if Rosberg would drive in Ferrari or Mclaren but this does not necessarily mean that they could easily beat Rosberg in MPG does it?

Edited by slaveceru, 20 August 2010 - 11:05.


#4847 ivand911

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Posted 20 August 2010 - 11:07

The times when one driver has beaten his teammate easily are long gone. The difference between the drivers now days is smaller and there is no testing any more so even the top drivers can make mistakes in the set up of there cars as we have seen this year in F1 racing. I also think that both drivers would be better if Rosberg would drive in Ferrari or Mclaren but this does not necessarily mean that they would easily beat Rosberg in MPG does it?

As Berger said Nico is the same level where Vettel is. I think in good cars like McLaren or Ferrari Nico will perform better and will change victories with Alonso and Lewis. Look where is Button and Massa, I think Nico is clearly better than them.


#4848 Lifew12

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Posted 20 August 2010 - 11:07

The times when one driver has beaten his teammate easily are long gone.


Nonsense. Some drivers are better than others - it's quite simple.

The difference between the drivers now days is smaller and there is no testing any more so even the top drivers can make mistakes in the set up of there cars as we have seen this year in F1 racing. I also think that both drivers would be better if Rosberg would drive in Ferrari or Mclaren but this does not necessarily mean that they could easily beat Rosberg in MPG does it?


I didn;t say it did 'mean' they could 'easily' beat Rosberg in the MPG; I said I thought they would, and when asked why, answered that I think they are better drivers.


#4849 Lifew12

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Posted 20 August 2010 - 11:09

As Berger said Nico is the same level where Vettel is.


I don't happen to agree with that opinion of Berger's!

I think in good cars like McLaren or Ferrari Nico will perform better and will change victories with Alonso and Lewis. Look where is Button and Massa, I think Nico is clearly better than them.


fair enough; I don't think Nico Rosberg is anywhere close to being on a par with Alonso or Hamilton. We have a difference of opinion.


#4850 ivand911

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Posted 20 August 2010 - 11:18

I don't happen to agree with that opinion of Berger's!



fair enough; I don't think Nico Rosberg is anywhere close to being on a par with Alonso or Hamilton. We have a difference of opinion.

:) Of course. Looking how many mistakes did Alonso and Lewis this year, for me Nico with his consistence , qualy speed he could lead WDC now. What he did with this dog of car. He miss only one thing - good wining car. And I feel sorry for him because I think that in Spa even Petrov will beat him. Williams too. Other teams(S,FI) can too. Just because their cars will be better, not because all drivers there are better than Nico. Michael will have nice fight with Jaime again. :wave: Hope I am wrong.

Edited by ivand911, 20 August 2010 - 11:22.